to report that Han is still able to surprise with a few
new (to me at least) tricks, such as covering
himself with a huge paper bag and using it both
as a "blind" and as a sound source.
Misha Mengelberg was also stunning, grand master,
very smart interplay, especially when he was
letting Han go crazy and would react with a
dissonant key stroke now and then...
The second set was simply amazing, with more "standard"
melodies thrown in now and then, including some
from "tante Thelonia's songbook" as Misha announced.
Really amazing concert, great dancing by Misha, with a
double reprise (somewhat rare at the often snobbish BIMhuis).
My only complain is that Dave Douglas was not there as was
initially announced...
greetings,
manolis
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 05:25:18 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: PROMO: Electro Acoustic
Experimental Intermedia and Erstwhile Records are proud to present:
Sunday, December 17, 3-11 PM
ELECTRO ACOUSTIC
A listening experience comprised of carefully selected pieces from all=20
corners of the globe, both current and historical, and programmed=20
specifically to take full advantage of the superb EI audio system.=20
Playlist (actual running order):
Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann-Sans Soleil
Pierre Henry-Mouvement Rythme Etude (excerpt)
Erik M.-Frame
=C5ke Hodell-Cerberus the Hellhound
Iannis Xenakis-La L=E9gende d'Eer
I-Sound-Folded
Dafeldecker/Kurzmann/Fennesz/Drumm-Nickelsdorf 2
Intersystems-2 untitled tracks from Free Psychedelic Poster Inside
Gottfried Michael Koenig-Terminus II
Zbigniew Karkowski-IT
Stilluppsteypa/TV Pow-unissued
John Wall-Construction IV
Christian Fennesz-Il Libro Mio
G=FCnter M=FCller/L=EA Quan Ninh-la voyelle e
Bernard Fort-Fractal V
Harry Bertoia-Continuum
Karlheinz Stockhausen-Telemusik
Toshimaru Nakamura/Sachiko M.-Do
Henri Chopin-Pluralit=E9 1.1.1.1.
Radian-I/E
Andrea Neumann/Annette Krebs-Rotophorm 3
Otomo Yoshihide/Voice Crack-3 unissued tracks
Werner Dafeldecker/Boris Hegenbart-unissued
Kevin Drumm/RLW-unissued
Dick Raaijmakers-Ballade Erik=F6nig voor Luidsprekers
Robert Ashley-Automatic Writing
Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler-temp/close
the public premiere of the Nakamura/Sachiko piece will begin at approximatel=
y=20
8 PM.
curated by Jon Abbey of Erstwhile Records and Michael Goodstein of WFMU=20
Experimental Intermedia, 224 Centre St., 3rd floor, NYC.=20
admission is $4.99.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:26:30 +0100
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: the wire article (was: Re: now some pearls ... (zappa))
sergio luque wrote:
> "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com> wrote
> > This was, in fact, the very essay that made me rub my eyes, scratch my
> > head, do some soul searching, and then sell my entire collection of some
> > 40-plus Zappa releases
> > http://www.thewire.co.uk/out/1097_5.htm
>
the article is just so plain fucking boring... it hurts. i didn't even manage
to read through to the end.
why does one become a music critic? the saying goes that those are the people
who failed at being musicians... might be some truth to it!?!?
let me add that i have long ago passed the point where i would be offended by
someone saying insulting things about zappa.
patRice
np: masada, live in sevilla
nr: eimi yamada, trash
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 06:57:00 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <jkudler@mail.wesleyan.edu>
Subject: Re: the wire article (was: Re: now some pearls ... (zappa))
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "patRice" <gda@datacomm.ch>
> why does one become a music critic? the saying goes that those are the
people
> who failed at being musicians... might be some truth to it!?!?
Oh, come on, that's awfully reductionist. Isn't that what musicians say
when their records get panned? Sure there are plenty of "critics" of
dubious cultural value who do little to actually be "critical" in the
intellectual sense, but what with the huge amount of records coming out now,
many of them quite good, the average consumer certainly needs some sort of
help filtering it all, and I think critics most definitely serve a useful
function in that respect. Growing up, various journalism and magazines,
some of which I certainly have no use for now, really helped point me in the
direction of interesting music. And that's just talking about record
reviews and the like, not to mention interviews/features, which can often
help provide more insight into an artist's work, and may even be considered
part of said work. Come on, plenty of people on this list covet
Zorn-related media, and where else are you going to get your questions about
his being married or not answered?
- -Jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:47:35 +0000
From: dan hill <dan@state51.co.uk>
Subject: Re: the wire article (was: Re: now some pearls ... (zappa))
hi all
ah i love this ... i drop an ill-considered reference into an email
at about 20:30 london time, and return the next morning to discover a
slew of (fascinating) replies back and forth!
to be honest, i can see both sides of the argument, having been in
both "the near-unconditional love for zappa" mode, and then the "i
barely listen to him anymore, and even then it's only a few
albums"-mode. but i feel i should at least deal with some of the
consequences of bringing it up in the first place, even though i back
the list's tactic of bringing up basketball to deflect the issue
(i've always wanted to do that with football (soccer), incidentally:
eric cantona as miles davis anyone?).
discussing the penman article is always going to be a contested
terrain, which was more or less guaranteed to get people's backs up.
i guess was much of his original intention.
he's a rock critic writing about a rock musician (and many of us will
be able to mentally finish the zappa quote there). and it's (vaguely)
interesting that many of the zappaphiles who hated this essay have
misquoted his opening line as "why anyone past the age of 17 would
want to listen to Frank Zappa again", when, significantly i think, it
starts "For the pop life of me ..." ... that's *pop* life of me ...
and his line about brian wilson positions the whole thing neatly.
that's where he's coming from, whether you like it or not. i'm not
denigrating that position either, just to make myself clear. i don't
have a problem with this kind of criticism or writing in general.
popular culture is serious business, and deserves serious debate.
zappa clearly did have a problem with popular culture, a theme
running through penman's piece, and is perhaps responsible for his
worst excesses.
i find myself siding with just about everything steve's said on this
one. whilst i *didn't* get rid of my zappa back catalogue, i was
able, as steve says, to say "ok, i don't like much zappa now", penman
vocalising the 'feelings' i'd been having, sometimes subconsciously,
about much zappa. having said that, i still love whole sections of
the albums i mentioned. i'm happy with this contradiction.
and i still think it's a brilliant essay, within the framework penman
sets for himself. utterly merciless, removing with laser intensity
whole sections of musical emotional baggage which i felt happier and
freer without. but i'm also aware of the problems inherent in writing
about music (particularly having struggled to do so myself, and i'm
horribly aware of how dull, lifeless and workmanlike my writing is
compared to the aptly named penman) ... zorn's introduction to
"arcana" places writing about music very well, and clearly
translating into words the content of a non-verbal medium is going to
be problematic. i hope simon hopkins doesn't mind me mentioning that
he and i have always been uncomfortable with the primacy of the
written word in the "motion" site we run, and we'll be doing
something about that.
[ though i do reject some of the suggestions (sometimes no more than
a 'tone of voice') that you have to have been a musician, or involved
in the industry in some way, to be "allowed" to discuss music. that's
an utterly outdated notion, and patently ridiculous when it comes to
rock music in particular. i've seen enough of "the industry" or "the
practice of music" (at all levels) to know the score here. i'm not a
musician, but don't tell me i can't think about music. ]
i still think penman's positioning of zappa as largely a "phase you
go through" has some resonance, when aged 17 or not. he's one of
those useful bridges between popular music and non-popular music
(without wanting to step through that particular minefield) ... sadly
or thankfully, my love of jazz stems largely from hearing kenny
kirkland and branford marsalis with sting's "dream of the blue
turtles" band. i mean, how much do i hate sting? but within months of
hearing that i was lost in the next 'stepping stones' of keith
jarrett, bill evans, joe zawinul etc. and here i am on a john zorn
list 14 years later ...
a few pet hates are people unable to deal with their musical past
(when i was 15 i said to friends, who never let me forget it, that "i
will never like funk", finding it utterly frivolous. currently i have
a monthly dj slot at a funk/soul night i organise at a bar in town.
go figure.) or people unable to have, never mind express, an opinion,
particularly when it flies in the face of fashion, and *particularly*
if you're a certain kind of journalist (a fear of *being seen* to
back the wrong horse, rather than actually backing the wrong horse).
penman is clearly saying what he thinks, and to my mind, he's dealing
with the consequences. it's his point of view and he backs it up
(again, i echo what steve said here, RE comparing with the nyt and
zorn article.)
there's still a few things i was listening to when i was 17 that i
still listen to ("larks tongue in aspic" being one of them). and i've
actually found myself going back to the stuff i was listening to when
i was 13 occasionally (bowie, heaven 17, human league) and enjoying
that. that doesn't mean that i don't feel i've progressed in my
listening, and i owe that largely to certain colleagues, events, a
lot of listening *and reading*, and groups like this list, where i'm
constantly exposed to numerous suggestions of fine music to track
down - i'll be a happy man if i hear even 10% of this stuff.
so, for speaking his mind, and speaking it in detail, in print, i
respect penman. i have big problems with a lot of his other writing,
and penman's mean-ness will perhaps make more sense if you read his
confessionals about his various addictions (dangerous unfounded
accusation, but ...). however, this article hit the bullseye
personally.
but (i told you there where "buts" with zappa), i still find my spine
tingling and my grin broadening when i hear hot rats, burnt weeny
sandwich, roxy and elsewhere, or the guitar collections. for these
alone, i would still describe myself as a "fan" of zappa. that
doesn't mean that i don't find whole sections of his oeuvre to be
stinking odious shit. music is an incredibly rich, complex, divisive
cultural field, and i don't see why we should simply vote "for" or
"against" (topical, eh?).
cheers,
dan.
- --
|||| dan hill [state51]
|||| new reviews on motion [15.12.2000]:
|||| mark springer | microstoria | jonathan coleclough | techno
animal vs dalek | koch-sch=FCtz-studer plus dj m. singe & dj i-sound |
fingathing | dan senn
|||| http://motion.state51.co.uk/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:18:33 EST
From: CuneiWay@aol.com
Subject: cynical
ahh....the great Frank Zappa controversy.
File it next to: the great progressive rock controversy [and its many
subsets, such as the great Gentle Giant controversy and the great Henry Cow
controversy] and the great fusion controversy and even the great metal
controversy
I'm just waiting for "the hipster/tastemakers" to "discover" Frank Zappa, the
same way they "discovered" Krautrock in the early mid 90's, after spending at
least a decade dismissing anything from the early to mid 70's as overblown
progrock rubbish. Then we can see glowing reappraisals about Frank Zappa in
The Wire & elsewhere. I *do* predict it will happen, starting with the
original Mothers Of Invention. This will happen in the next 5 years....
I notice that there are starting to be shades of reappraisal about fusion,
after many years of sneering at that.
I think it's all pretty funny, but maybe that's because I have watched the
cycle so many times that it has made me pretty cynical about it.
Does anyone take anything that overblown, full of themselves, writers for The
Wire & that ilk of journalism spew out THAT seriously? I hope not!
Steve F.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:03:23 -0600
From: Moudry <Moudry@uab.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Re: zappa
>From: Jeffcalt@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:14:59 EST
>Subject: Re: zappa
>To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 126
>Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>
>3 things:
>1. The drummer on 'Freak Out' is named Jim Black.
Lest there be any possible confusion, the Zappa drummer is NOT the current
Jim Black of Bloodcount fame, but rather "Jimmy Carl Black (he's the Indian
of the group)".
Old Zappa-ites never die....
Saturnally,
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, The University of Alabama @ Birmingham
Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra, & Free Jazz):
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>
Producer/Host of Classic Jazz & Creativ Improv on Alabama Public Radio:
WUAL 91.5FM Tuscaloosa/Birmingham
WQPR 88.7FM Muscle Shoals/NW Alabama
WAPR 88.3FM Selma/Montgomery/Southern Alabama
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:09:07 -0500
From: wlt4@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: the wire article (was: Re: now some pearls ... (zappa))
>why does one become a music critic? the saying goes that those are >the people who failed at being musicians...
Not true. It's the musicians who are failed critics, unable to control their own language, shape coherent arguments or get the proper tone of reverence when pronouncing "lester bangs."
Still waiting for the critic groupies (don't laugh - Edmund Wilson had them), Lang
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:38:05 +0000
From: Philippe Dupuis <dupuisph@nb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: burnt weenie sandwich
hello,
- -other things that standout are the great early 70s jazz-rock
- -albums, "hot rats" and "burnt weeny sandwich".
i really like burnt weenie sandwich, but i really don't
know why he framed the album with those two doo-bop
tunes. i "get it" when he goes all out with the genre with
pieces like that Charva (or it is Jarva?) on the lost
episodes album, but most of he time i find these types
pretty boring and pointless. sharleena is a good example.
i've never heard rubin and the jets, but i saw something
on t.v. a while back that showed a 7 inch by this bland
doo-bop group and one of the tunes was written by zappa
himself, with serious lyrics. i think the band had the
word penguin in it.
martin dupuis
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:39:54 -0600 (CST)
From: James Miller <jam189@mizzou.edu>
Subject: Re: Zappa
Steve Smith wrote:
> For the Zappa neo-phyte, I'll only add the following advice to the slew
> of truly excellent and accurate suggestions the list has already
> generated: avoid 'Thingfish' like the plague, and make sure that
> somehow, at some point, you get to hear the exquisite instrumental "A
> Watermelon in Easter Hay," from the otherwise juvenile-in-extremis
> 'Joe's Garage.' (I don't need to own those discs to play that gorgeous
> guitar solo in my head whenever I want to...).
And then (forgot who said this):
> Yeah, the article seems pretty symptomatic of rock journalism, which puts
> the emphasis simply on having as strong an opinion as possible rather than
> actually making an argument. I too find it hard to believe that something
> this empty and polemical would convert a Zappa fan. It would be
> interesting to read a more carefully fleshed-out critique of Zappa's work,
> however, and I wonder if there are any out there...
My take on Zappa, quickly:
First, I came to it late, in my late 20s-- I began with the feeling that
it was sophomoric, obvious, etc. Only later, after reading Ben Watson's
crazy "Negative Dialactics of Poodle Play" did I get interested. I'm not
saying that Watson's voluminous and creaky tome has convinced me of
anything, but I was fascinated by the attempt: if nothing else, Watson
does put Zappa into a context.
The thing I like about Zappa (and Zorn) is that he creates problems for
the listener (this is a central claim in Watson's book). So that a fan of
the early Mothers will often slam into the brick wall of his 'juvenille'
early 70s joke bands. Sure, I had (and have) the same reaction, but at the
same time, I tend to hear these 70s albums (like Filmore 1971) as being in
a dialogue with the earlier discs (like Uncle Meat or Money). I bought the
first 7 albums or so in order, and found that I was "comfortable" with the
experimentalism of the early work-- coming from a background in Zorn,
modern classical, punk, musique concrete, etc, it all sounds pretty
friendly: "my kind of music." Accessbile, I guess. But then here comes Flo
and Eddie, smug theatricality, self-conscious documentation of a
particular era and ethos in rock (the Flo/Eddie albums are basically about
touring in the rock world). From my point of view, THIS is the strange
stuff-- I'm not saying it's good necessarily, but I had that "what the
hell is he doing" feeling, which I like, even if my final judgement is
negative.
I'm also fascinated by Penman's article because it's so angry! I don't
necessarily disagree with his opinions, but I wonder whether Zappa's
ability to provoke such hostility might be worth thinking about. I'm also
not convinced that Zappa is unwilling to engage with the world (pain,
dirt, etc), at least not in the records I know. For example, in "200
Motels" there is a suite of songs on groupies. Zappa's take on their
experience is interesting to me: on the one hand, its somewhat exploitive.
Yet the melodies are sweeping and sad at the same time. And there's a line
that suggests empathy with the subject ("At least there's sort of a choice
there...", implying that the character doesn't really see much of one).
I'm still grappling with these issues, but the point I'm trying to make is
that there ARE issues. Similarly with Zorn, though he rarely provokes the
kind of hostility Zappa does. Just some thoughts...
Andy
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #202
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