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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #953
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Sunday, June 4 2000 Volume 02 : Number 953
In this issue:
-
Wild Ginger Philharmonic
re: sex mob
Rochberg's answer (Was Artists and their...)
Joe Gallivan/Rainforest Project at the Knit TONITE
Shankar and Glass, sittin in a tree
Sex Mob
Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
artists and self-estimation
Re: artists and self-estimation
Re: artists and self-estimation
Re: artists and self-estimation
artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
artists and self-estimation
Re: artists and self-estimation
KFLA
re:listen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:13:55 -0400
From: "Ljova" <L@Ljova.com>
Subject: Wild Ginger Philharmonic
Hi.
The Wild Ginger Philharmonic performs TONIGHT at Good Shepherd Church,
66th Street between Broadway and Amsterdam.
Philip Glass came to our concert yesterday, and was very impressed.
Here's a review from the Philadelphia Inquirer, about Wednesday's concert.
http://web.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/06/03/magazine/GINGER03.htm
More info on today's concert is at http://www.WildGinger.org/
See you there?
Regad's,
- -Ljova
- --------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
L@Ljova.com
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)
"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
-Miles Davis
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:54:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <whit@twinearth.wustl.edu>
Subject: re: sex mob
i haven't heard the new album, and didn't care much for the first.
nonetheless i went to a recent gig of theirs (because beggars can't be
choosers in st. louis) and was very impressed. lots of fun (as long as
the audience doesn't try to participate - a friend of mine tried to play a
metal chair with them, and the response was a definite 'no'), and great
musicianship. however, the highlights of the show, for me at least,
ocurred when it was just the trio of krauss, wollesen, and the bass player
(the name escapes me) playing: the silliness dropped away, everything
opened up, and we were treated to some serious
post-miles-davis-second-quintet-style music (to my slightly inebriated
ears ;). i would have preferred just the trio, although i'm not sure what
they would have done if left to their own devices, without berstein
calling the shots. just my 2 cents,
whit
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:46:14 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: Rochberg's answer (Was Artists and their...)
Yeh,
hey Eisenbel Brucy... I be very interested in his answer.
-Samuel
"Why do you suppose Ludwig chose the third?", Rochberg asked me. If anyone
is interested I'll write back tomorrow with his answer.
- -
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:45:59 -0600
From: smokey@laplaza.org
Subject: Joe Gallivan/Rainforest Project at the Knit TONITE
If anybody goes to this I'd love to hear about it.....
I saw Gallivan/McMinn/Austin/Cuomo on Maui - a bright spot in an
otherwise dull scene, I tell you...
Dan in Taos
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:51:57 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: Shankar and Glass, sittin in a tree
hey anybody,
anyone heard the Ravi Shankar and Philip Glass CD yet? what's people think?
I hear bits and samples at a site, but i don't think that gave me a very
revealing glimpse.
descriptions, reviews?
thanks in advance.
-Samuel
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:23:32 -0300
From: "BROGGI, GUSTAVO" <GUSTAVO.H.BROGGI@la2.Monsanto.com>
Subject: Sex Mob
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFCD91.37C5B3DE
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Talking about Sex Mob. Does anybody knows if they will be playing in =
NYC
between June 18th and June 30th?. I Know S. Berstein=B4s Millennial =
Territory
Orchestra will be at Tonic on June 30th.
Best
Gustavo=20
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFCD91.37C5B3DE
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>Sex Mob</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Talking about Sex Mob. =
Does anybody knows if they will be playing in NYC between June 18th and =
June 30th?. I Know S. Berstein=B4s Millennial Territory Orchestra =
will be at Tonic on June 30th.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Best</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Gustavo </FONT>
</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFCD91.37C5B3DE--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 01:53:59 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
>From: Matt Mitchell:
>
>I'm not suggesting that we suspend critical judgement,
I would suggest that we do suspend critical judgment or at least interrogate
it vigorously because if the best we can do when we encounter a new CD is
repeat the same old tired critical tropes that have been hanging around
since the days of German Romanticism, than we haven't learned a thing about
our music or why we cathect with it so regularly.
>I agree that sometimes the artists we know run out of things to say.
>Sometimes they over-burden us with a massive catalog. (Paul Bley, David
>Murray, Braxton...even Zorn, dare I say)
Notice the elision here between statements or propositions and musical
productions. Musicians "say" things with music (presumably with our overly
inscribed avant-gardist "trope-a-doping," we would demand that they "say"
something new. Musicians have to "say" new things; we "critics" get to
reinvoke the same old ideologies). Should we bitch at musicians as well
because they "over-burden us with a massive catalogue?" Who needs to buy?
Some call it overproduction; I prefer to call it documentation.
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel"
>
>I have a different opinion here. Artists sometimes try new things that go
>nowhere. Through history, we tend to only remember the ones that really
>succeeded (the bins of art are quite full with failed attempts).
The issue of memory is interesting from the standpoint of who creates it and
for what purpose. The reason a number of artists/musicians/writers are
confined to the "dustbins of history" is not because of "failures" (who
legislates something as an artistic failure and for what purpose?), but
because of who determines the history and what gets successively passed on.
Many of the people who determine these histories think they have a handle on
the "timeless" and "true" sense of "aesthetic value," but more often than
not, it's just their version that has won and can get passed along because
of the institutional capacities available to them. What we remember is what
we are told to remember; what's interesting are the elisions of history
brought back to our "collective memory" after we've been told by the "elites
of good taste" to forget them because they have nothing to "say," or because
their work is "shit," or because their efforts have produced "failures" from
the standpoint of some "timeless and universal aesthetic" that those with
accrued and well-developed taste can discern.
>From: Nudeants@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>thesubtlebody@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
> ourselves_.
> >>
>
>Bait? You imply trickery or some such thing here. If an artist does
>something we don't like, then its bait? What is it if we like it? Or is
>it
>'bait' no matter what, even if we like it?
Whether we like something or not, doesn't matter. "Likes" are arbitrary
and artists aren't that sneaky, primarily because they're not that
interested in duping audiences any more than in pleasing them.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:40:09 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Bill said:
"Whether we like something or not, doesn't matter. "Likes" are
arbitrary and artists aren't that sneaky, primarily because they're
not that interested in duping audiences any more than in pleasing
them."
Dearest Bill,
In your message you communicated something successfully and eloquently
that I have trying to get across to people for a long time. I agree in the
subjectiveness of likes and dislikes especially with something as abstract
as music. Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
seriously could do some people a lot of good. Musicians/artists should be
respected for the fact that they tried.
thanks,
-Samuel
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:10:25 -0700
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
>>>Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
seriously could do some people a lot of good. Musicians/artists should be
respected for the fact that they tried.<<<
np: Sax Hits of the 90s by Kenny G
"I am a great fan of Kenny G and know what a true genius Kenny G is on the
SAX. Love your music Kenny G and thank you for filling my heart and mind
with such sounds that words can not decribe."
--Reviewer: A music fan from Uinted (sic) States of America [Amazon.com
customer review]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 07:58:02 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
>From: "s~Z" >>>Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking
>it so
>seriously could do some people a lot of good. Musicians/artists should be
>respected for the fact that they tried.<<<
>
>np: Sax Hits of the 90s by Kenny G
>
>"I am a great fan of Kenny G and know what a true genius Kenny G is on the
>SAX. Love your music Kenny G and thank you for filling my heart and mind
>with such sounds that words can not decribe."
>
> --Reviewer: A music fan from Uinted (sic) States of America [Amazon.com
>customer review]
Sounds like just another judgment to me, "uncritical" though it may be. Of
course when one questions the path of criticism, the old aestheticists come
along invoking without being able to quote Adorno's anxieties about pop
culture that jived with his ethos of high modernism. We get the either/or
fallacy: either we resort to critical judgment or we end up with pop
stupidities, as if we wouldn't anyway, no matter the state of criticism.
Let it be said though that one can love John Zorn and his ilk, appropriate
the titles of Roland Barthes' books, and yet exhibit stupidities of kind
though not of degree of the Kenny G lover in question, particularly in
regard to what is considered "self-evident," the quote that refuses a
narrative to account for it.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 09:02:00 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@idt.net>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
samuel yrui wrote:
> I agree in the
> subjectiveness of likes and dislikes especially with something as abstract
> as music. Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
> seriously could do some people a lot of good. Musicians/artists should be
> respected for the fact that they tried.
We've had this argument several times before, but I still wonder at the
insistence on the suspension of judgment with regards to certain human
activities like music (or art in general) but not others. I take it the
same folk walk into voting booths and randomly pull levers, pick lovers
arbitrarily from a crowd and stick with them no matter what and
uncomplainingly tolerate crappily made shoes two sizes too small. Humans
are judgmental beings, human actions are open for judgment. Now, there's
certainly a difference between making one's pronouncements with near
religious certainty and simply offering them as one's (hopefully
well-grounded) opinions but, he says judgmentally, some humans are
jerks.
Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.
imho, of course.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 10:58:57 EDT
From: Eisenbeil@aol.com
Subject: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
This debate of quality as percieved by the critics in contrast to the
publics acceptance or in opposition to the composers objective is one that
has been documented for a long time. Beethoven chose his third symphony as
his favorite because it was with this one that his most dramatic
breakthroughs in harmony, melody and form occured. The devices used in the
third were ones that he recognized as being his personal signature and from
this point he could develop his style from even further.
In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
thesubtlebody@hotmail.com writes:
<< >Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
>last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration
>when
>assessing their work for ourselves.
If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
ourselves_.
>>
I think that this is a fascinating subject. A few years ago I had the
opportunity to spend an afternoon visiting with composer George Rochberg, an
80 year old composer who has been part of the avant-garde his whole life.
He
told me that during Beethoven's time , old Ludwig Van was asked by an
interviewer to state his favorite symphony. Beethoven replied that the
Third
symphony, Eroica, was his favorite. The interviewer was surprised because
he expected him to state a more obvious choice, the 5th or the 9th.
"Why do you suppose Ludwig chose the third?", Rochberg asked me. If anyone
is interested I'll write back tomorrow with his answer.
Peace,
Bruce
www.eisenbeil.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:20:41 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Brian wrote:
Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.
imho, of course.
Brian Olewnick
well spoken, and i agree to a certain extent.
but i think the quality of a shoe is comparible somewhat to the quality of a
recording. what i'm addressing, i think, is taste. you can certainly judge
on matters of taste, but like you say, when it comes to taste it has to be
more of an opinion. the shoemaker has two jobs. making the shoe comfortable
and have it last a long time. but the shoemaker also has to take fashion
into consideration. as much as it's taboo to compare art to fashion, the
fashion of a shoe, and richness of musical or artistic ideas, is a matter of
taste.
some could say that minimalism is, in Philip Glass's case, just a bunch of
well orchestrated arpeggios, or, in Arvo Part's case, a bunch of pretty
repetetive choir music travelling in fifths. "hey, what the hell! Indian
classical music doesn't even modulate? it must be less complex than OUR
music." sorry, i don't mean to drive the point so hard.
i guess i should stress that i don't mean people should suspend ALL
judgement. i just think that when people have a negative judgement they
perhaps could try to be less spiteful about it. true, Kenny G and N'Sync
are quite commercialized. but for the most part i don't really think they
are offending anyone's morality, so go ahead and dislike it, but don't state
objectively how their music is just bad according to universal laws.
respectfully,
-Samuel
PS
what does imho mean? i forgot.
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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:17:04 -0700
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
>>>Let it be said though that one can love John Zorn and his ilk,
appropriate
the titles of Roland Barthes' books, and yet exhibit stupidities of kind
though not of degree of the Kenny G lover in question, particularly in
regard to what is considered "self-evident," the quote that refuses a
narrative to account for it.<<<
You believe the quote was in regard to what is considered "self-evident."
Why? What is it that is self-evident?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:18:57 -0700
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: KFLA
Good news for So. Californians?
http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 17:15:09 +0200
From: "Truyens" <jan.truyens@pandora.be>
Subject: re:listen
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Again some great music to check out. On the dave Brubeck tribute CD the =
opening track by Dacid Slusser.Such unabashed use of every trick plus =
one of the firmest guitar solo's this side of the 70's.
For all of you who still have ears;)
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Again some great music to check =
out. On the=20
dave Brubeck tribute CD the opening track by Dacid Slusser.Such =
unabashed use of=20
every trick plus one of the firmest guitar solo's this side of the=20
70's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For all of you who still have=20
ears;)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #953
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