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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, January 12 1999       Volume 02 : Number 571



In this issue:
-
       Re: Looking for a clue
       RE: NY NY
       Re: NY NY
       The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists
       Re: NY NY
       Re: NY NY
       Experimental Vocalists/Sound Environments
       Re: Blast from the recent past
       Re: Experimental Vocalists/Sound Environments
       Re: Blast from the recent past (was Re: Penguin Guide)
       Re: Blast from the recent past

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:00:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Matsumoto <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a clue

On 05 Jan 1999 13:37:24 -0600, <[e-mail]> wrote:

> Can anybody give me a clue/comments about the following cds. on
> Winter&Winter:Gary Thomas "Found on Sordid streets" and "Pariahns
> Pariah", Big Sata "I think they like money", Marc Ducret "Detail",
> Noel Akchot=e9 "Lust Corner"

Better late than never...
I second the positive remarks about the Ducre and Akchote... the Akchote
is particularly good for its wide range, from ambient to folky to almost
punk/metal.  Oh, and a couple of Ornette covers for good measure.

The Gary Thomas is nice, albeit a little light in comparison.  Good,
upbeat jazzy stuff, sort of a soulful and in the tradition.  There's rap
on two tracks as well.  Not nearly as abstract as the other discs you've
mentioned...which might make it a nice contrast, actually.

I have not yet heard the Big Satan album, and my life is worse for it. :(

- -- Craig Matsumoto
( SF Bay Area Creative Music Calendar:
http://www.slip.net/~wedge/gigs.html )



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:18:26 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: NY NY

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 9:51 PM

> Maybe we could
> find people in other major cities here and abroad to create similar users
> guides?  I'd love to have such a shopping guide to, say, London
> or Toronto at
> hand when heading into a new town.

Thanks so much for the New York list, Steve -- I'm going to be there for a
week in February and am already looking forward to hitting all the shops.

I will start compiling a San Francisco / Berkeley guide -- let me figure out
addresses and websites first -- and then post it as soon as I can.

Later,
Ben

np: sebadoh, "the sebadoh"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:56:11 -0600
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NY NY

>is the type of store I would include on this list.  When I finish it I'll post
>it to the list for reference and certainly debate/ammendment.  Maybe we could
>find people in other major cities here and abroad to create similar users
>guides?  I'd love to have such a shopping guide to, say, London or Toronto at
>hand when heading into a new town.
>
>Steve Smith
>[e-mail]


I think this is a great idea.  Perhaps it calls for a web page?  Any
volunteers?

Dan Hewins



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:58:55 -0600
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists

The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists

Kat Nagel ([e-mail]) sent this terrific piece to the EARLY-M
mailing list in December 1994. It is the best description of the social
development of a mailing list I've read.

Every list seems to go through the same cycle:

1.Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush a lot about how
wonderful it is to find kindred souls).

2.Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and
brainstorm recruitment strategies).

3.Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop,
occasional off-topic threads pop up).

4.Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of
information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as
less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other;
newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and
expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and
sharing opinions).

5.Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically;
not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining
about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other*
people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with
person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted
complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads
themselves; everyone gets annoyed).

6.Finally:

1.Smug complacency and stagnation

(the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with
humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a
doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions
happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists
spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping
off-topic threads off the list).

OR

2.Maturity

(a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage
4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out
their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever
after).



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:09:41 -0800 (PST)
From: a rancid amoeba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NY NY

> >is the type of store I would include on this list.  When I finish it I'll post
> >it to the list for reference and certainly debate/ammendment.  Maybe we could
> >find people in other major cities here and abroad to create similar users
> >guides?  I'd love to have such a shopping guide to, say, London or Toronto at
> >hand when heading into a new town.
>
> I think this is a great idea.  Perhaps it calls for a web page?  Any
> volunteers?

Call me nuts (I do), but for the past couple of months I've been
considering finding a publication to hook up with to do a print/
web publication for the experimental/improv community in the way
that Book Your Own Fuckin' Life is a resource for the punk/hardcore
community (I'm currently heading up the group working on the 1999
edition of BYOFL). For those not familar with BYOFL, it's an annual
print publication (and now will be a searchable web site) put out in
cooperation with MAXIMUMROCKNROLL that lists contact info for bands,
promoters/venues, labels, distros, zines, radio stations, record &
book stores, and more from all over the world that are punk-oriented
or punk friendly. Its main reason for existence is to keep the DIY
spirit alive and healthy in the punk community mostly through making
it possible for bands to book their own tours almost anywhere in the world.

I don't know if I'm the only one who would dig on having this sort of
info compilation at hand (in addition to enjoying a wide variety of
music, I'm also an information junkie and very pro-DIY). My hands
will be full with BYOFL until the end of April so I wouldn't be
attempting to do anything actively until then (and if this is a ball
someone else wants to run with, I'd be happy to provide them with
everything I've learned while doing BYOFL). Don't mean to step on
the toes of people wanting to do their own independent types of
listings, but it just seemed like a good time to bring up the idea of
doing a larger, more international sort of thing.

If people think a publication and/or web site of this sort would
be a useful thing for experimental/improv artists and music lovers,
let me know. And if you have any ideas of what zine(s) would be the
best to talk to about sponsoring it (a zine with decent worldwide
distribution is actually far better at getting the word out than
the web), let me know that too. (And if someone else would be
interested in making this happen instead of waiting until I've
cleared my calendar and have been declared officially nuts, I'll pass
along any info I receive.)


chanel

PS. If any of you are familar with Gilman (Rizzi I know you are), it's
in immediate jeopardy of having it's license revoked by the city of
Berkeley. There's info and a petition to sign at
http://www.gilman.org/sos/. For those wondering what Gilman is, it's
the granddaddy of all-ages, all-volunteer non-profit punk clubs. Tickets
are never over 5 bucks and its about the only place you can find a range
of people from 10 year olds to 60 year olds all enjoying the same
thing (mostly because it's about the only club left that parents
can bring their kids to). They need virtual signatures not just from
Bay Area residents but from anyone in the world who values the ideals
of a cooperative club trying to stay alive in the midst of profit-
hungry Silicon Valley.





^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
http://www.arancidamoeba.com/                          [e-mail]
              r e c o r d  l a b e l s  o n  t h e  w e b
                 future home of a rancid amoeba records


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:56:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NY NY

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, a rancid amoeba wrote:

> Call me nuts (I do), but for the past couple of months I've been
> considering finding a publication to hook up with to do a print/
> web publication for the experimental/improv community in the way
> that Book Your Own Fuckin' Life is a resource for the punk/hardcore
> community

There are some such resources on the Web already, but to have something of
the quality and comprehensiveness of BYOFL both in print and on the Web
would be quite wonderful. Toss in a copy of Chadbourne's "I Hate the Man
Who Runs this Bar", and it might be perfect :-)

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:13:18 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Experimental Vocalists/Sound Environments

I'm hoping someone could help me out by suggesting some names of
experimental vocalists to me (a la Mike Patton or Diamanda Galas) and
possibly directing me towards websites or books/articles that discuss
their techniques.
Also if anyone knows of musicians who have done experiments involving
tuning/harmonising/disharmonising objects in their sound environments,
anything from rooms in homes to factories full of machinery ect, names,
websites or any info on those artists would also be valuable to me.
Thanks,
Chris Tonelli



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:24:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Blast from the recent past

If so-called "free improvisers" are as rigid as Derek Bailey in refusing
to play composed music, then the likelihood of boring passages in
their creations increases.
By refusing to do any one thing you're cutting yourself off from any
music's greatest potential. Thus someone who thinks like that becomes the
sort of fascist who in another context would refuses to play improvised
music, or play polkas or play "How High Is The Moon" or play in 3/4 time
or play with an improvising saxophonist or ....

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:45:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Experimental Vocalists/Sound Environments

Try listening to the work of Phil Minton on FMP, Victo etc.; Paul Dutton
of the CCMC, which has a new disc on Victo and Patty Waters first session
on ESP Disk.

But then again if you figure Mike Patton is an "experimental
vocalist" this may be the wrong advice.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:24:45 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Blast from the recent past (was Re: Penguin Guide)


    Charles,

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:57:30 -0600  Charles Gillett wrote:
>
> As of Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:09:23 -0800, I had not heard John Butcher.  Now
> that I have, I'm wondering what Patrice meant when he said:
> >For a John Butcher (to name somebody a little bit younger), how many second
> >knives, predictable performances (waiting for the elusive "magic moment"),
> >hackeneyed and tedious extended techniques?
>
> First of all, I'd heretofore managed to make it to the ripe old age of 24
> without hearing any references to "second knives." What does this term mean?
>
> Secondly, is this a slam against Butcher or are you just using him as an
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not at all!!! I am a big fan of Butcher and was in fact using him as the
exception to my perception of improv these days (that I find less and less
interesting).

And I know why I used Butcher. It might be for the same reason that I fell
in love with Parker 25 years ago. Both are not only "doing" improv. They
created a language on their own topped with the technical means to convey
it.

If fact, if it were not for individuals like Butcher, I would have totally
given up on improv ten years ago.

By "second knives", I meant the musicians who practice a genre that they did
not create and to which they barely add anything. They are the followers,
the epigones, etc. Every genre, once matured, has its own.

> Thirdly, I think freely improvised music of both the jazz type and the non-
> idiomatic sort has been plagued by predictable performances and tedious
> extended techniques (and probably second knives, too) since shortly after
> its "invention."  When does a technique become tedious, and how predictable
> is predictable?  I'm sure a good portion of the early free improv concerts
> were incoherent rubbish, full of obvious gestures and boring squalls, perhaps
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sure, but it is easy to be indulgent when a genre is so new and in its
infancy. When Parker/Oxley/Stevens/Bailey started this kind of music in the
'60s, there were almost nothing equivalent (although classical avant-garde
was flirting with similar concerns -- hey, Deutsche Grammophon even put out a
record with New Phonic Art and Iskra 1903). Thirty years after I get tired of
people presenting the same old stuff as "cutting edge".

> Matthew Shipp: "How can I put this...What you said before, that there is a
> school of people that would look at myself and say, "You're just doing the
> avant-garde music of the sixties"--they tend to like White players, and they
> would say that this group of whites are doing something new, and you guys
> aren't.  That type of ideology does exist.  I think it's complete bullshit,
> myself."

I agree with him: I think both camps have been wearing to the thread their
respective fields (black-free jazz and white-free improv -- which both have
almost the same age :-).

And there is nothing wrong there, just that I am tired of seeing this music
presented as the next new thing. It had this opportunity, but it was a long
time ago.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:18:47 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Blast from the recent past

Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> If so-called "free improvisers" are as rigid as Derek Bailey in refusing
> to play composed music, then the likelihood of boring passages in
> their creations increases.

Well, but if they're musicians of Bailey's caliber, perhaps those will
be interesting or even beautiful "boring passages"!

Seriously, not that I'd want every musician alive to adopt Bailey's
stance, but I'm glad he's stuck to his guns (though check out that
tantalizing few seconds on the "talk" portion of 'Drop Me Off on 96th'
where he strums a few notes from 'I Didn't Know What Time It Was'!
Scrumptious!). Whether it's 'cutting edge' anymore or not (& I agree
with Patrice that it's not), I still (uh, think I'm repeating myself
from a few months back, but this stuff gets me riled up) don't see any
reason free improv should go stale any more than good conversation. Free
jazz might be another matter...or jazz itself. As Patrice implies, if
I'm reading him correctly, things have their natural life expectancies,
sad but true. I don't find it all that difficult to imagine someone in
2100 remarking on "Jazz: that wonderful form which flourished from about
1900-2000". One reason might be the obvious absence of young, creative
black musicians entering the field in the last twenty or so years. And,
Sudhalterites to the contrary, I don't think one has 'jazz', however one
wishes to define it, without a healthy majority of black musicians
anymore than one would have a lot of great shakuhachi music if it was
only produced by Germans (*shudder*, said as an American of half-German
ancestry). A side note: Back around 1978, I had a nice long conversation
with Muhal Richard Abrams, one of the finest people I've had the
pleasure of meeting. The subject of race vis a vis jazz came up. Muhal
put it this way: "You know, I could go to Ireland and study Irish folk
dancing. I could stay there for 20 years and I'm sure I'd become able to
turn a damn good Irish jig. But, I'd never be as good as an Irishman."

I tend to find Shipp's critics correct, that a good proportion of his
work consists of more or less interesting variations on, say, 'Unit
Structures'. Much of his potential audience, I think, realizes this and,
not finding a lot of substance being created by the few young, black
'avant jazz' practitioners, happily return to their Braxton, Ornette,
AEC, etc. and seek out new music elsewhere.

I assume my experience is the rule, but one need only note the almost
total absence of black listeners in attendance at avant-jazz concerts
over the last, for me, 25 years (and I'd guess this has been the rule
since around 1960). It's hardly surprising that, 20 or so years down the
road, we don't see many young blacks entering the field. One reason, I
suspect, is that people of, say, Braxton's generation might have been
the last, generally speaking of course, to be raised with jazz being the
ambient music in the household. I don't know and, obviously, I'd hope to
be proven wrong. I'm sure some may put forth names to reckon with but,
for me, folk like Shipp, Byron etc. don't quite inspire confidence.
Besides they're, what, in their mid to late 30's now anyway--I'm looking
for 23 year olds, you know, the age Braxton was when he recorded 'For
Alto'!!!. Where's that guy or gal, much less 20 or 30 of them, today in
jazz?
Those people exist, of course, but they've chosen, while perhaps drawing
on it, to work in fields at best tangential to jazz (O'Rourke,
Yoshihide, Kang, etc.) Those are some of the ones (not necessarily
'white' as Shipp charges) that I find myself increasingly looking
towards for 'new music'.

Carpe for the diem,

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #571
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