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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #553
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, December 15 1998 Volume 02 : Number 553
In this issue:
-
re: komeda
Re: question about SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE
Penguin Guide
Penguin Guide
Re: Penguin Guide
Klezmer
Re: Penguin Guide
Re: Penguin Guide
Re: Penguin Guide
Recommendations
Re: Penguin Guide
Re: Penguin Guide
RE: komeda
Re: Klezmer
Re: Penguin Guide
Re: Klezmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:58:00 +0100 (MET)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: re: komeda
> Also, I think it's time someone took it upon themselves to release Komeda's
> soundtrack to Roman Polanski's "Fearless Vampire Killers".
>
> Frankco.
and some of his late 60s jazz albums like KOMEDA 3 should also be
rereleased. i only have a bad tape-copy from an even worse lp-version
(scratched). but what i hear is amazing.
and hey, i was in contact with someone from this list from poland, who
told me that there is alot of komedas stuff out there...hey man, i lost
your emailaddress...could you get back to me?
BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:09:01 -0800
From: Todd Bramy <tbramy@oz.net>
Subject: Re: question about SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE
I'm not exactly sure when the release date was, but the promo started
showing up about two months ago or so. A few interesting things here, but
mostly pretty lame.
Todd
> I was checking the various artists section of my favorite record store
>when I found the following:
>
>-
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
>*** - SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE: various artists
>
> Soundtrack to the comic books.
>
> Produced by Dave Ogilvie and Kat Bjelland
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:09:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <jbivins@indiana.edu>
Subject: Penguin Guide
Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?
I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.
As for the "Fearless Vampire Killers" soundtrack, didn't the Bad Brains
already do that one? (wink)
Jason Bivins
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:11:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <jbivins@indiana.edu>
Subject: Penguin Guide
Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?
I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.
As for the "Fearless Vampire Killers" soundtrack, didn't the Bad Brains
already do that one? (wink)
Jason Bivins
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:40:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <bburton@CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Jason Caulfield Bivins wrote:
> Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
> "Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
> very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
> is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?
>
> I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
> us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
> they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.
anytime anyone tries to canonize art, there always seems to be some
oblique methodology at play, personal axes to grind, nostalgic favorites
to lionize, etc. is "godspelized" a better record than david murray's
"low-class conspiracy"? maybe. maybe not. i know that one is in print
and one isn't, yet they both come from the post-ayler continuum (to
paraphrase anthony braxton). the problem with these lists comes when
us laypeople take them more seriously than what they deserve, which is to
be considered as a list of recomendations. take them with a few grains of
salt.
two good recent examples of botched attempts to canonize are the modern
library's 100 best list of 20th century novels and the afi's 100 best list
of american films. for example, why are women so underrepresented in the
former? why did murnau's "sunrise" (a film many critics consider to be the
best ever made) go unmentioned in the latter? these lists aren't perfect,
but it seems to be human nature to make lists, so keep them coming, but i
certainly don't take them as unflawed.
b
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:51:06 EST
From: Egopogo4@aol.com
Subject: Klezmer
Hello all,
I'm just entering a new slice of music Klezmer. Naftule Brandwein,
Naftule's dream, David Krakauer, and I'm looking for more. I would like to
know more about the history of Klezmer. What does the word mean? When did it
start? Can you help me?
Ego Pogo
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:53:45 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
In a message dated 12/15/98 11:43:15 AM, bburton@CapAccess.org wrote:
<<the problem with these lists comes when
us laypeople take them more seriously than what they deserve, which is to
be considered as a list of recomendations. take them with a few grains of
salt. >>
my feelings exactly. two of the previously crowned records are Bobby Watson's
Love Remains and Joe Lovano's From The Soul. I don't think these are two of
the most essential sixty records ever, but I didn't write this book.
that being said...
<<Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this?>>
the closest they give to a rationale on this is that "Only Charles Gayle has
managed to push the Coltrane idiom farther out." Gayle's Touchin' On Trane
previously had a crown, although it's a more deserving record, if you ask me.
and as far as the Coltrane box being demoted, it has to do with the ready
availability of all of the individual records.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:57:35 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:53:45 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
> the closest they give to a rationale on this is that "Only Charles Gayle has
> managed to push the Coltrane idiom farther out." Gayle's Touchin' On Trane
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?
Anyway, I am seriously wondering where is the flaw there. Critics who can't
stop whining at the past and jump on anything which could reassure them that
the old days are still there? WASPs who feel guilty for having missed the
'60s free-jazz and find in Gayle an excuse to repare the mistake (with an
indulgence that almost looks like total lack of critic judgement). Kids
who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
told them that there was music besides rock?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:43:52 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
wow, Patrice. quite a little diatribe there.
<<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>
I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
aping said style.
<<Anyway, I am seriously wondering where is the flaw there. Critics who can't
stop whining at the past and jump on anything which could reassure them that
the old days are still there? WASPs who feel guilty for having missed the
'60s free-jazz and find in Gayle an excuse to repare the mistake (with an
indulgence that almost looks like total lack of critic judgement). Kids
who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
told them that there was music besides rock?>>
hmmm. the only thing in that I feel that I need to answer is the Gayle slam.
have you seen him play live, preferably before the last few years when he's
mostly been doing his clown routine? he was literally breathtaking. much of
this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful of
the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision Festival
was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.
all that being said, I listened to Ware's Godspelized again yesterday and
don't think it's deserving of a five-star rating. but like I said before, I
didn't write the book, and like Brent said before, they're just opinions.
one interesting discussion this may start is how geographical distance affects
your perception of a musical scene. those of us in NYC who could have seen
Gayle or Ware (or Zorn) 50 times or more if we had wanted may easily be jaded
when thinking critically about them. more on this later if others pick up the
thread.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 15:59:06 -0300
From: hulinare@bemberg.com.ar
Subject: Recommendations
Hi Zornies,
Just to ask for any opinions on these CDs.
I'm planning this month's shopping and any light on these will be
helpful.
You can email me privately if you consider off-interest to the List
Thanks in advance,
Hugo
Any Babkas' cd- (Ants to the moon- Babkas- Fratelli)
Joey Baron's Raise Pleasure Dot
Jean Derome's Tribute to the music of T. Monk
Frank London's The Debt
Roy Nathanson's Camp Stories
John Patton's Blue Planet Man
Ned Rothemberg's Power Lines
B. Frisell's Buster Keaton's Soundtrack
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:24:16 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:43:52 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
> wow, Patrice. quite a little diatribe there.
>
> <<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
> considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>
Which was directed at Penguin's comment.
> I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
> the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
> aping said style.
We might argue on the added value of Gayle's achievements to free-jazz.
> [...]
>
> hmmm. the only thing in that I feel that I need to answer is the Gayle slam.
> have you seen him play live, preferably before the last few years when he's
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only once and I was as disappointed as with the records. There was definitely
energy but I thought it was really short on ideas and inspiration. Most of
the solos were the same and I got bored after few songs (something that never
happens with Coltrane, Shepp, Sanders, and other '60s artists).
His performance on instruments other that tenor were, I feel, really
embarrassing (violin, etc).
> mostly been doing his clown routine? he was literally breathtaking. much of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I fortunately missed that (and his rantings against "sinners").
> this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful of
> the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
> Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
> performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision Festival
> was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.
I definitely missed these shows.
Patrice (wondering if he should give Gayle another chance, or if
he simply lost any interest in this kind of jazz).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:26:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <bburton@CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
> <<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
> considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>
>
> I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
> the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
> aping said style.
i agree. some of the best post-coltrane, post-ayler free jazz was all
about taking that aesthetic and pushing it into the red (like arthur
doyle's "alabama feeling"). it seems as if patrice's question is akin
to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?" (or
even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?") i
think there comes a point when the refinement becomes static (like hard
bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
is certainly cause for praise of great records like "touching on trane."
> one interesting discussion this may start is how geographical distance affects
> your perception of a musical scene. those of us in NYC who could have seen
> Gayle or Ware (or Zorn) 50 times or more if we had wanted may easily be jaded
> when thinking critically about them. more on this later if others pick up the
> thread.
well, seeing gayle play with william parker, kid jordan and milford
graves this summer further solidified my belief that gayle comes out of
the free tradition, but he is nowhere near merely retreading ideas. that
show was freaky, intense and insane. it was perhaps the most palpable
sense of fear i've ever experienced watching free jazz. it made me want
to pull out my gayle records for another listen.
b
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:50:32 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <arno@silesia.top.pl>
Subject: RE: komeda
> and some of his late 60s jazz albums like KOMEDA 3 should also be
> rereleased. i only have a bad tape-copy from an even worse
> lp-version (scratched). but what i hear is amazing.
I live in Poland and I could help with getting Komeda / Stanko
records. Please e-mail me privately.
Regards
__________________________________________________________________
Artur Nowak [arno@silesia.top.DEATHTOSPAMMERS.pl]
www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill
Frisell
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:09:04 PST
From: "Glenn Ianaro" <sp16gg870@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Klezmer
>Hello all,
> I'm just entering a new slice of music Klezmer. Naftule Brandwein,
>Naftule's dream, David Krakauer, and I'm looking for more. I would like
to
>know more about the history of Klezmer. What does the word mean? When
did it
>start? Can you help me?
>
>Ego Pogo
THere are a set of recordings called the Klezmer Pioneer Recordings.
These are authentic old time Klezmer recordings and are wonderful. SOme
other groups are the Klezmer Conservatory Band, a group from Boston, and
also Alicia Svidl <sp?> is a wonderful Klezmer Violinist.
As for what THe Word Means I'm not sure.
Glenn
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:09:23 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:26:07 -0500 (EST) Brent Burton wrote:
>
> i agree. some of the best post-coltrane, post-ayler free jazz was all
> about taking that aesthetic and pushing it into the red (like arthur
> doyle's "alabama feeling"). it seems as if patrice's question is akin
> to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?" (or
> even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?") i
> think there comes a point when the refinement becomes static (like hard
> bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
> has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am curious to know where you read about that. It seems to me akin to
Christians saying that the existence of God has not been questioned for the
past 300 years... You statement has more to do with faith than with
facts. Or your statement comes from an insider that has not taken the
temperature outside for a long time :-).
You might feel that way because everybody outside improv just don't care
about the genre anymore. It was maybe the same in the '70s, but improv
had the benefit of the novelty at that time, and some people were seriously
believing that it was the next hot shit in music. Instead of that, I have
the impression that improv is becoming more and more a ghetto. The more
disconnected from the outside, the more convinced the members are that
they are on the right track... Improv had 30 years to get its message
through. Do you see any reasons to open the champagne?
From Derek Bailey, excerpt from an interview published in JAZZTIMES August
1997:
"I don't know what the 'orthodoxy' of improvised music is, but I wouldn't
be surprised if there is one now."
I totally disagree with your assessment of the free community (lack of
stagnation). I think that the freshness is not there anymore (except if you
identify freshness with amateurism), and performances are becoming catalogues
of cliches (inherited from the glorious hours of the genre). For a John
Butcher (to name somebody a little bit younger), how many second knives,
predictable performances (waiting for the elusive "magic moment"), hackeneyed
and tedious extended techniques? Is it not surprising that the main names that
we are still dropping these days are the ones who created the genre... 30
years ago?
I don't think there is anything wrong with a genre reaching saturation (hey!
bebop did not even last 20 years), what is wrong is the rosy message that
improv is defying the laws of thermodynamics and keeps on getting younger and
younger.
Patrice (a big fan of improv, but not a cheerleader).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:21:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Klezmer
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Glenn Ianaro wrote:
> As for what THe Word Means I'm not sure.
FWIW: It comes from the Hebrew "k'ley zemer", meaning "musical
instruments".
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #553
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