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v02.n441
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1998-08-17
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #441
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, August 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 441
In this issue:
-
Re: Tony Conrad
Re: Praxis
Re: Tony Conrad
Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438
Tri-Centric Festival, NYC
Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Ice _Bad Blood_
In The Grass (Ducret/Previte)
weird little boy
Re: weird little boy
Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Re: tony conrad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:24:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
> completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have
> stayed home and let someone play a CD).
but, isn't this subjective?
> In that case you voted with your feet, being in a situation where it was
> possible to do so. But you probably wished you had known what you were in
> for ahead of time.
i don't know... part of the charm of
discovering new experiences is
not neccessarily being prepared
for what lies ahead. it would
be boring (for me) if everything
was predictable.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:23:10 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <jeffs@hyperreal.org>
Subject: Re: Praxis
At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>previously released material including one Death Cube K song. It is on
>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>
>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label. Does anyone
>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????
It's the Material/Praxis "1984" recording, which is about that old, with
remixes.
Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:36:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
>
> > completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have
> > stayed home and let someone play a CD).
>
> but, isn't this subjective?
Not in this context, I don't think. If an artist is completely ignoring an
audience, to the point of being effectively unaware of their presence,
what is the point of being in the same room as the audience, other than
perhaps the frisson of excitement that one might get from being in the
same room as a Famous Artist (which can get a bit cannibalistic at times).
> i don't know... part of the charm of
> discovering new experiences is
> not neccessarily being prepared
> for what lies ahead. it would
> be boring (for me) if everything
> was predictable.
If I knew exactly what shapes the next week's worth of clouds would have,
they would be boring. If, however, I weren't be able to predict pretty
well that for the next week the Earth would have a breathable atmosphere,
it might make getting on with life significantly more difficult.
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:13:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438
I called Thurston a free-form dilettante because having seen him
perform twice with good rhythm sections --
at FIMAV and NYC -- I don't think he's a very good improviser.
He'd be better off using the SY $$$$ to fund CDs and concerts by folks
who IMHO can *really* play improvised music.
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 98 16:09:10 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Tri-Centric Festival, NYC
Visiting the Braxton-oriented Tri-Centric site at:
http://www-osf.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton
I saw the listing of this festival to take place at Greenwich House on
the weekends of 9/24-9/26 and 10/1-10/3. Though Braxton the composer
won't, apparently, be represented, he is performing with a number of
ensembles. Leading those groups will be: Rozanne Levin, Kevin Norton,
Seth Misterka, Taylor Ho Bynum, Morgan O'Hara, Bruce Morris, David
Novak, Jackson Moore, Richard McGee III, James Fei, Kevin O'Neil, Joe
Fonda, Brandon Evans and Chris Jonas, all of whom, I suppose, have
some relationship with AB at Wesleyan. I'm only familiar with two or
three of these names, mostly from work with Braxton. If anyone knows
more about any of these folk, I'd be curious to hear your impressions
of their music.
The dates of this festival, by the way, match up exactly with the
Masada and Bar Kokhba ensemble dates at Tonic. Decisions, decisions...
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: matthew.colonnese@yale.edu (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
>Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound
>like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it.
>
>I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of
>_Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear
>what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone
>interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less
>sloppy environment.
As usual there is a difference in basic assumptions here. I personally
don't care if Tony Conrad was successfull in bringing to fruition the goals
which he set himself. I don't care if he had complete control over the
notes flying around the room, or even if he was had control of the
paramaters the chaotic note production. I don't care if there was
movement, composition, complexity, originality or any other arbitrary
prinicple of musical "goodness" (or concern for the audience, or whatnot).
All of these can be usefull descriptors of why one person did or did not
like a piece of music, but too often (and I sense of whiff of this in
Joseph's responces to TC*) they are used as universal measures of success
or failure of piece. They are nothing of the sort. They are fairly
arbitrary assumptions about artistic value used to reductively analyze
music and then give these analyses some objectivity. And for good reason,
it is difficult to professionalize and academize musical analysis if
everyone just stood around and said "well, I liked it" and "yup." But it
is easy to let these formerly analytical principles become evaluative
criterion, and then eventually to become dominant criterion.
*though this is fairly common assumption underlying most of the criticism
exchanged on this and other lists; and, I guess, critical thought in
general.
I enjoy TC's music because I love the sound. If it changed too much, or
had too much forward motion it would loose the epic, unwavering quality
that is so important to it power. LaMonte young may be more sucessfull at
clearly defining and articulating the sonic interactions he is exploring.
This is likely one reason he plays to art establishment and TC play rock
clubs. But there's more to music than rigorous exploration of basic
prinicples. One person likes clear articulation, others "sloppier" ones.
That TC plays music that does not corespond exactly to his written goals
only makes him a failure at following through on his written goals, not in
making enjoyable music.
>Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it
>possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator
>while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly.
>
I'm curious if the key word here is "cliches" or "badly"? And in anycase,
what about all those folks who like wankery misunderstood innovators? Is
it a real abomination that some folks will get enjoyment out of music
that's been "objectively" identified as poor?
side note, side note: I have a pet theory re: the David Shine tour. All
the classical reviewers wrote him up as being quite poor for not having
this or that technical expertise. The audiences, reportedly, loved it. I
wonder though if those same foibles which earened him the scorn of the
classical establishment were heard as emotional by the audience? And that
the properly played piece, with all it's technical excellence comes off as
cold to the untrained ear? Anyone?
>
>As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
>time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
>Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
>expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.
The music biz has become so huge that the "audience" varies. If I go to
concert at some small downtown space which usually presents "experimental"
sorts of music to mostly other musicians, I (and I think most others) don't
expect a fully worked out piece. I'm looking for ideas taking shaped,
sometime successfuly, sometimes not. An outside festival for on the New
Haven Green should probably be something tried and true with great
effectiveness. Somewhere in between, should be somewhere in between.
- ------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:11:35 -0400
From: "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Ice _Bad Blood_
>Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST)
>From: Joe Weil <weilj@ecn.purdue.edu>
>Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
>BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores?
>CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much.
I got mine via RoughTrade (www.roughtrade.com).
A domestic (US) issue of it will be out in Sept/Oct via Reprise.
JJTar.
- ---
Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar
W. W. J. D?
(What would Jason Do?)
http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
ICQ@13792120
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:19:56 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <hewins@synsolutions.com>
Subject: In The Grass (Ducret/Previte)
Anyone know what's up with this album?
I looked at ICE Magazine's web site and it lists it as coming out tomorrow
(8/18). Enja's web site has it up there.
Only thing is is that none of my local record stores have it in their
databases. Any ideas? Any info?
Dan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:40 -0700
From: "Christian Heslop" <xian@mbay.net>
Subject: weird little boy
I have not heard the album under discussion but I have been noticing some
interesting points being brought up around it. Edgard Varese referred to
his work as "organised sound" and no discussion of modern noise music would
be complete without a nod to his aesthetic purpose. Noise music is to me a
logical step in the direction of freeing music from arbitrarily determined
systems that determine more than they describe the result of "organised
sound". Schoenbergs twelve-tone was once a revolution but quickly became
equally as dogamtic as the tonal system that was it's predecessor. There
are no believable rules for what music is other than Varese's. Questions as
to the quality of a piece of music can only be answered if one is aware of
a musicians purpose-allowing you to judge quality by determining if he/she
has satisfied that purpose. Any question of quality without knowledge of
creators purpose is simply an argument of taste-which is quite obviously
not a functional debate. Which may be very frustrating to those of us who
know that we have "good taste".
Improv or composed?Depends on the purpose, but I don't think anyone would
say that the music world hasn't been enriched by the introduction of
improv. But there remain some very serious questions about the quality of
noise bands and how it may be determined. If you can't hear it then maybe
you should start at the beginning-Monteverdi or something. Let me present
you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing
itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of
this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any
idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in
ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to
affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin
to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference
they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the
performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as
revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to
tell-perhaps you need to reexamine your understanding of music.Sorry about
the essay....
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:36:02 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <gill0042@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400, Caleb Deupree wrote:
> It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be
> someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but
> doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash,
> contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are
> complete unknowns.
It seems like a fair number of more "trad" jazz fans on rec.music.
bluenote think that all JZ fans are this way, and also that the
musicians themselves are only out to fool people into thinking that
they're cool and hip, etc. Is the currency of cool really that
valuable? Would someone willingly live a life of poverty, playing
unpopular music, just so some kids will think they're cool?
Anyway, even though I own a (to me) surprising number of Zorn
albums, I think he's been more valuable to me as a pointer toward
other musics--the free, thrash, classical, concrete that you mention.
Certainly, I like quite a bit of his music, and I have an inexplicable
affection for Masada which drains my wallet regularly, but as a guide
to the underworld he's pretty spiffy.
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400, "Chris Barrett" wrote:
> Just because one finds/discovers an artist through, say Rolling Stone,
> it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media conglomerate
> that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint.
I discovered John Zorn through Rolling Stone. In one of their year-
end issues they reviewed the first Mr. Bungle record and _Torture
Garden_. I bought _TG_ shortly thereafter.
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> improv/noise is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it
> is good by definition (or the question about "good" and "bad" is
> irrelevant). And the vast majority does not even care of the genre
> (and they would not believe, anyway, that you can even make music
> which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result? Zillions of
> records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you
> really remember or put on your turntable...
To some extent it's that way for all kinds of music, isn't it?
Who's going to be listening to "Hello Nasty" in 10 years? Maybe
everyone, more likely just a dwindling number of hardcore fans. I
think the problem with experimental, improv, or noise albums is
not so much that everyone assumes that they're great from the get-go,
but that there's always someone out there who will like any given
album, and in this relatively small scene one voice is pretty loud.
There's no critical consensus, usually (beyond the bit about John
Fahey doing no wrong). Generally, there are only a few minutes of
any improv album that I can actually point to and say "Mmm, good!"
on the first or second listen. If there's nothing horrible on the
album, then I continue to listen to it and discover other parts I
think are good, or parts I think are bad. After a few months, I
might feel confident enough to say that such-and-such an album is
good or bad.
Sometimes I never figure it out. I keep buying Loren MazzaCane
Connors CDs, hoping that some important piece will fall into place
and I'll be able to rave about how much I love his music. Instead
I continue to be held in a state of suspended opinion. I *think*
I really like his music....
- -- Charles
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:32:39 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
>As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
>time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
>Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
>expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.
John Cage didn't like to use the word 'experimental' for his music for
precisely this reason, that it implied somehow that the music wasn't
"ready" yet.
>To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of
>the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and
>how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a
>musical community.
And of course, subjectivity plays a lot as well. A Sunday article in the
Washington Post said that nothing Cage wrote beyond 1952 had any musical
merit. For me, that's the equivalent of saying post 1952 Cage is "crap".
There's no way to have an intellegent conversation about music starting off
from a position like this, especially an uninformed one.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:20:16 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: tony conrad
Brent Burton wrote:
> well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music
> that he isn't trying to achieve. if you listen to "outside the dream
> syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the
> velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency.
> i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it
> for decades.
I haven't heard the Faust album, though I have heard the early Velvets
material. That Conrad is consistent in doing what he want is well, good,
and agreed.
> maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation...
Ooh, yeah! I have several of his CDs, and had his "China and Sunsets"(?)
video for awhile (before a bunch of my stuff was ripped off). Very
clear, quite exciting work (though I don't know if I'd want to hear a
large chunk of it live).
> > What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
> > convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
> > getting these differences other than by accident.
>
> well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have
> to disagree. the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's
> actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see.
I don't think he was confused, just that his grasp may have exceeded his
reach.
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #441
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