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Zorn List Digest        Saturday, May 30 1998        Volume 02 : Number 379



In this issue:
-
       cohen
       cohen
       Re: cohen
       Zony Mash, NYC 6/3/98
       UK radio
       black music question
       anti-intellectualism
       Re: anti-intellectualism
       Re: anti-intellectualism
       vision festival
       Re: anti-intellectualism
       Funny stuff E# and Feldman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:00:02 -0500
From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: cohen

Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
& co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?

Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?

caio

Bob in Somerville

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:00:02 -0500
From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: cohen

Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
& co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?

Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?

caio

Bob in Somerville

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:24:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cohen

Easy, when he's not making the Zorn scene or producing records (Madeline
Peyroux [sp] is trhe one I know about), Cohen is part of that white
Dixieland scene which always needs strong bassists. A friend of mine ran
into him at the recent Milwaukee Hot Jazz Party, where in some cases Greg
was 20 to 40 years younger than the musicians (and 30 to 60 years
younger than the fans)

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Wed, 27 May 1998, Bob Kowalski wrote:

> Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
> Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
> & co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?
>
> Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
> Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?
>
> caio
>
> Bob in Somerville
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Toby Dodds <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zony Mash, NYC 6/3/98

Just a reminder that Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash will be performing at the
Hudson Tent as part of the NY Jazzfest on Wednesday June 3rd.  They are
scheduled to perform between 7 & 8 PM followed by the Jazz Passengers &
Squirrel Nut Zippers.  I know Wayne's got something special planned for
this one night only appearance by Zony Mash on the east coast so
definiately don't miss out!!

BYE!
Toby

[e-mail]
www.zonymash.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:57:38 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: UK radio

just a note to tell people in the UK that "jazz on three" has the
Clusone trio on Saturday from Bath, and also an interview with Bill
Laswell, discussing the 29th anniversary (today!) of "emergency"!

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:41:36 +0200 (MEST)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: black music question

question: anyone can give me any info on good late 60s to early 70s black
music records that i do not know.....please answer privately since this is
not that list related i guess.......
i already know the stuff of:
stevie wonder, isaac hayes, roberta flack, funkadelic, parliament, bobby
womack, kool & the gang, earth, wind and fire, curtis mayfield...so you
guys dont have to metion these

BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:18:16 -0400
From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: anti-intellectualism

>
> Chris Hamilton mordantly (sic) wrote:
>
>>I'm regularly surprised by the
>>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.
>

I had some ideas in response to Chris Hamilton's surprise
at the anti-intellectualism used by many to interpret music.
What I would have said is that music is a medium that can be accepted without
intellectualism.  Anti-intellectualism is a response to the idea that
music cannot be appreciated without an intellectual insight into the music.
Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.  It is a generally
accepted philosophical viewpoint of aesthetics that "The more you know about
something, the more things there are to like (appreciate) about it."
However,
intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
the music."

Then I read this response:

"Snap" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
>two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this
>list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
>their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial,
>by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to one's own
>causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to one's
>preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know, but
>entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
>gastro-intestinal bliss.

This must be a joke.  Here we have an argument for non-intellectual
appreciation
of music written in pompous and intellectual language.  I believe the
slang term for this sort of writing is "academese" or "technicalese".
It would be a satire if it was humorous.  I think Snap's argument serves no
purpose except to flaunt his vocabulary.  His argument is basically
nonsensical
and contradictory.  Take for example, "unerring elitism" from the paragraph
above.
It is obvious that Snap thinks this elitism is very much in error, judging
from the
tone of the rest of the paragraph.

[One reason the Zorn group is great is due to the new vocabulary
I learn in various postings.  In Snap's posting, there were
a variety of words or word usages new to me.  I looked the words
I did not know up in Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary.  FYI:
mordantly = sarcastically
Vedantic = in the philosophy of the Hindu Upanishadic doctrine of the
identity of
Brahman and Atman, that reached it's highest development A.D. circa 800
through the philosopher Shankara--what the philosophy says, I still don't
know.
sybarite = one devoted to luxury and pleasure
obliquy = (not in Webster's encyclopedic unabridged dictionary).  However
obliquity
means a "confusing or obscure statement or passage of writing, especially one
deliberately made obscure.)  If "obliquy" is intended to be obliquity,
then it applies perfectly to Snap's post, although I don't know why Snap
wanted
to point this deficiency out him/herself.
Some words I knew but couldn't figure out what they meant as used by Snap:
defrock =  to deprive a priest or monk of ecclesiastical rank
coronate = (actually an adjective, though used as a verb by Snap) having or
wearing a crown
supercillious = (actually supercilious) haughtily disdainful]

Another example:
>[In tandem with some of his personality traits,
>perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
>"science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
>time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
>possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]

This sentence is also nonsensical, partially because it is grammatically
incorrect and therefore difficult to understand.  The subject of the sentence
is apparently "method" or "way" but neither has a verb.  I have no idea
what this sentence intends to express.

Snap continues:
>    The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat
>idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his
>rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the
>path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound.

But this is exactly the role that Snap is playing by using such phrases as
"unmitigated propensity", "two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition",
and "intentionally supercillious".  Snap attempts to establish his/her
point of view
as the fuller and exclusively rational perspective.

Lastly, Snap writes:
>    Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the
>behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just
>impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability
>determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof.

I believe this long sentence is logically false.  How can Chris Hamilton's
mood or intention in writing of his surprise at musical non-intellectualism
determine the tone of Snap's response?  Snap's response is obviously
intentionally supercilious and not impulsive.  Whether it is hawkish (meaning:
in the manner of a hawker of wares, presumably intended to be intrepreted as
loud and annoying) or aloof (meaning, disinterested), has nothing to do
with Chris Hamilton's original tone, which was neither hawkish nor aloof.

The point of this post?  Snap is not the only poster on the Zorn list guilty
of pompous and meaningless postings.  I think it does not take any great
stretch of the imagination to say that those of us who subscribe to this
list would be more interested in reading earnest and straight-forward
discussions.
It's not useful or enlightening to the the other members of the
list to hear these various (and quite possibly interesting opinions) if we
can't understand them, owing to careless or intentionally obtuse language.

Thanks.

David K.

p.s. But keep the new vocabulary words coming; those I enjoy.





- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:44:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism

On Tue, 26 May 1998, David J. Keffer wrote:

> However,
> intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
> the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
> the music."

Yes, yes, yes, to everything in this paragraph including the parts I
snipped.  My objection is to active hostility towards taking the added
bonus (though I now realize that Chris Genzel's position is more
complicated than this).

Chris Hamilton


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:26:49 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism

On Tue, 26 May 1998 18:18:16 -0400  "David J. Keffer" wrote:
>
> >
> > Chris Hamilton mordantly (sic) wrote:
> >
> >>I'm regularly surprised by the
> >>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.
> >
>
> I had some ideas in response to Chris Hamilton's surprise
> at the anti-intellectualism used by many to interpret music.
> What I would have said is that music is a medium that can be accepted without
> intellectualism.  Anti-intellectualism is a response to the idea that
> music cannot be appreciated without an intellectual insight into the music.
> Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
> The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.  It is a generally
> accepted philosophical viewpoint of aesthetics that "The more you know about
> something, the more things there are to like (appreciate) about it."
> However,
> intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
> the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
> the music."

I guess I see some historical reasons to a form of "anti-intellectualism".

The fact that artists get rejected by so-called intellectual (based on what
they think are solid argumentation) for not being "cutting-edge" or for being
"commercial". On the other side, some artists produce a level of infatuation
that has more to do with the rethoric associated to their art that the final
product... Fortunately time is here to restablish the priorities :-).

When you think of all the brain cells that have been used (wasted?) in many
fashionable political/aesthetical theories, you can't stop feeling indulgent
for anti-intellectuels (and ashamed for the ones who were supposed to know).

I have become very sceptic about criticism of music recently, specially of
improv. The standard deviation of judgements of concerts/records is appalling
and only the dialectical skills of one critic can sometimes make a difference
in an ocean of confusion.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:42:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: vision festival

this past saturday i caught the 6th night of the 3rd annual vision
festival in nyc, featuring the redoubtable quartet of milford
graves/charles gayle/kidd jordan/william parker.  let me just say that if
you *ever* get a chance to see milford graves you should kill, maim, and
steal to do so.  graves defines the word heavy.  just like the beginning
of the mid-70's milford graves lp _babi_, the quartet played full-on from
the drop of the very first beat.  graves and parker provided a nearly
impenetrable wall of free rhythm sound over which gayle's tenor-playing
sounded uncharacteristically lyrical and relaxed.  certainly thick
energy-sound playing @ it's finest, but not the frenzied skronk and skree
that i was expecting.  (hopefully kidd jordan, who is from the big easy,
will get invited back for more spontaneous blowing sessions)  for me, the
highlight of their set came when graves began simultaneously chanting and
soloing, before abandoning his homemade kit altogether to indulge in some
freaky quasi-african dance and a stage-dive.  wow!

subsequent sets by rob brown's quartet and other dimensions were rock
solid but seemed almost anticlimactic after graves and company.

bassist peter kowald's group was the other real highlight for me on
saturday night.  kowald's quartet, which featured gunda gottschalk on
violin, jin hi kim on komoungo (a traditional korean stringed instrument)
and xu feng xia on ghuzeng (a traditional chinese stringed instrument), was
the most subdued group of the evening and rooted more firmly in european and
asian classical traditions than the gutbucket, freewheeling americanisms of
free jazz.  gottschalk did get a bit freaky, emitting random high-pitched
screams while playing, but the group's improvisations mostly sustained a
minimal, almost devotional quality.

i just wish i could have seen more of the festival.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:08:54 +0200
From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism

Hi everybody,

Chris Genzel wrote:
>There are two ways of enjoying music: on a intellectual level or on a, say,
> visceral one. The first one has to do with analyzing, the second one with
> feeling. [...] I won't say you shouldn't analyze music. I often do it
myself,
> but I do it to see what's there in a track, how it works, and not to figure
> out why or why not I like it.

First, I don't think that those two ways can be decoupled completely. I. e.
in complete absence of reason, a purely extatic state of mind, you won't
recognize anything, whereas in a completely non-emotional state of mind you
won't recognize music as music but as meaningless noises. Ergo: it's not a
neither-nor question, but only a question of proportions. Secondly, I think
it to be operational to decompose the intellectual grip on music depending
from the purpose. This D major E flat minor thing is a technical matter
which can be very far away from an analysis of the effects of music. It
seems to be of interest for imitation purposes rather than for an aesthetic
analysis.

Consequently I do not completely agree with David, when he says:
>Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
>The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.

I think a concept of music appreciation WITHOUT intellectual participation
is naive. Plus the latter must not infinitely extendible; it depends from
the kind of music. I wouldn't think that a dissection of very earthy,
simple structured folk music would deepen my appreciation, cause the
intellectual content is that few, as well as the technical complexity
(purposefully in many cases, I think).

Chris Genzel says:
>You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
>and for disliking something.

No, the same parameter, but a different amount of it. What you did is a
reasonable analysis of your appreciation.

Patrice says:
>The fact that artists get rejected by so-called intellectual (based on what
>they think are solid argumentation) for not being "cutting-edge" or for
being
>"commercial".

Even if so, this shoudn't keep us listeners from ignoring the artist's
intention and taking the music the way we like to, be it possibly emotional
or possibly intellectual

Patrice:
>I have become very sceptic about criticism of music recently, specially of
>improv. The standard deviation of judgements of concerts/records is appalling
>and only the dialectical skills of one critic can sometimes make a
difference
>in an ocean of confusion.

I think this calls for another differentiation: is an intellectual way of
listening to music identical with revealing objective properties of it? I
don't think so. The critic has the difficult and often impracticable
problem of beeing expected to say intersubjective things about what he
critisizes. To me, the emotional AND the intellectual content of art is
mainly subjective, i.e. recipient-specific, so that the publication of my
interpretation of an artwork may only match other people's judgements
insofar as they share my dispositions of understanding.

Fritz

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:56:21 +0200
From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Funny stuff E# and Feldman

Dear Zornies,

For those of you interested in Elliot Sharp, I post these mails that
appeared on the Elliot Sharp mailing list.

It deals with some funny stuff that happened between Sharp en Feldman,
enjoy these....

> > Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:34:27 EDT
> > From: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: Datacide #09
> >
> > **Devin, regarding your post...yes, there is truth to the E# vs. Feldman stry,
> > I believe,
> >    as he told me a similar story with some additional info...
> >
> > In a message dated 98-05-27 13:54:13 EDT, you write:
> >
> > <<
> >  Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:39:02 -0700
> >  From: "Devin Hurd"
> >  Subject:  E# and Feldman
> >
> > Here's something from the John Cage list.  This is a great story.  Is there
> >  any truth to it?
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> >  Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:02:37 -0400
> >  From: Kristen Rigney <[e-mail]>
> >  Subject: Re: Was Re: True? You be the judge...
> >
> >  A story for the budding composer;
> >
> >  While at Hallwalls in Buffalo, I had the pleasure of programming Elliott
> >  Sharp, once with Zeena and once with Carbon. E# was an undergraduate at
> >  SUNY Buffalo while Morton Feldman was still alive. Elliott, as a young
> >  budding composition student in the 70's was very interested, as were others
> >  of his classmates, Bobby Previte included, in the idea of improvisation
> >  as a tool of the composer...and made no bones about it. Morton Feldman,
> >  however, had other ideas...and also made no bones about it. Elliott told me
> >  Feldman accosted him in the hallway of the old Baird Music Building
> >  immediately after a recital and said in a very loud voice:
> >
> >  "Improvisation just doesn't wash!"
> >
> >  E# quit the program some time later that year and moved to NY.
> >
> >  So, who's experimentalism is it anyway?
> >
> >  Hope that helps. ;)
> >
> >  Dan Rigney >>
> >
> > **Elliott also mentioned another incedent, which I'm pretty sure was also with
> > Feldman....Elliott had composed a piece for a student concert, or a class or
> > something...and Feldman was in the audience "holding court", I believe Eliott
> > refered to it as...Well, just as Elliott's group was about to start, Feldman
> > yelled out "wait...where is the percussionist's music stand?".  Elliott
> > explained that the percussionist did not need a stand because, although the
> > rest of the musician's had scores to read, the percussionist would be
> > improvising.  Feldman then grabbed a stand, walked up onto the stage in a
> > huff, placed it (without a music score!) before the percussionist, and said
> > "THERE!  NOW you can start"
> >
> > The next day, Feldman asked Elliott to step into his office, and said
> > "Improvisation....I don't buy it!"  He also said, at some point, "Mr.
> > Sharp...music is intended to be listened to while sitting in plush red velvet
> > seats...YOUR music however seems to be meant for listening to while squatting
> > on a dirt floor..." or something to that nature....pretty funny, considering
> > Feldman fancied himself a pioneer of innovation!
> >
> > Jonathan LaMaster
> > Sublingual Records
> > www.sublingual.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:20:40 +0100
> > From: elliott sharp
> > Subject: tales of feldman
> >
> > i always enjoy witnessing the transformation of information.  here's the
> > story on some of my dealings with Morton Feldman (excerpted from
> > unpublished writings "In Passing"):
> >
> > Shortly after my arrival in Buffalo in August '74 I joined the Composer's
> > Forum at the University where I was taking two music courses and working as
> > the Maintenance Guy/Electronicist for the Music Department.  The Forum met
> > weekly and planned a concert or two for each semester.   Morton Feldman
> > held court - waxing egotistically philosophical, reminiscing about the good
> > old days of avant-garde music in the Fifties, issuing pronouncements about
> > what should and should not be done in the composition of music, and
> > intimidating the generally fearful and awed students (except, of course,
> > those anointed by him to carry the torch via insipid imitation of Feldman.)
> > He cut quite a figure with his horn rims, greasy pompadour, huge belly,
> > and the ever-present Camel with an inch of ash ready to drop.  Certainly,
> > he was entertaining (and i was a great fan of his music and writings.)
> >         For the October event, I decided to present HUDSON RIVER #7 - a
> > piece for soprano sax and tape.  On the tape was a 90" through-composed
> > melody played on the soprano through a ring modulator.  This track was
> > slowed down to half-speed and another ring-modulated sax track improvised
> > and overdubbed to the now 180" line.  This was then slowed down to
> > half-speed again for the performance yielding a 360" heterophonic
> > background over which I improvised a third sax part.  Morty called me into
> > his office the next morning, sat me down, and quickly dismissed me (in
> > thick Brooklynese): "You know, improvisation, I don't buy it." I muttered
> > that I wasn't selling and slipped out.
> >         In November '74, I began work on ATTICA BROTHERS for presentation
> > at the March '75 concert. Composed for violin, cello, electric guitar,
> > contrabass, orchestral percussionist, rock drummer (the beginning of my
> > friendship and musical association with Bobby Previte), and conga drummer;
> > the piece was structured in two parts over a continuous pulse played by the
> > conga.  A conductor with time cards cued the various entries and
> > transitions.   The first part featured a through-composed seven-note melody
> > in a pentatonic "blues scale" for the strings stretched over five minutes
> > and harmonized microtonally to produce an angry buzzing with the drummers
> > exchanging  short, intense blasts.  The second part (three minutes long)
> > featured a through-composed groove for rock drums and bass while the
> > strings wailed like sirens, the percussionist earthquaked, and I improvised
> > fuzzed out glissandi.  As we prepared to commence the performance, Feldman
> > stood up from the packed house and yelled "Where's his music stand?"
> > pointing at the conga drummer.  I replied that he didn't need one because
> > his entrance and exit were cued by the conductor.  Feldman's reply was to
> > climb on stage, grab a music stand from the wings, bang it down in front of
> > the percussionist (jaw-dropped, eyes glazed with fear) and announce, "Now
> > you can play the piece."  Like before,  Morty called me into his office the
> > next morning: "You know, you put too much sociology in your music.  Music
> > should be listened to sitting in red plush seats, but your music, you have
> > to sit on the floor."
> --
- --
Stefan Verstraeten




- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #379
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