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1998-04-09
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #320
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, April 10 1998 Volume 02 : Number 320
In this issue:
-
Re: Music School vs. Music Lover
Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Re: wynton marsalis
Re: wynton marsalis
Re: Zorn's sense of humor
Re: wynton marsalis
Re: Music School vs. Music Lover
Re: wynton marsalis
Re: Music Scores
plicky plicky plock
Re: Re[3]: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
re: the residents
Re: plicky plicky plock
Bible Launcher
Re: Steve Reich boxset
Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn
re: the residents
OST
re: the residents
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:54:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Music School vs. Music Lover
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, George Grella wrote:
> It is the "music lovers" whose
> dollars lead to the "top 40" programming of classical organizations like
> the New York Phil [their new season schedule is just appalling,
> seemingly dictated by the marketing department], while musicians gnash
> their teeth in frustration over not getting anything that is risky.
While I've known plenty of adventurous-minded, conservatory-trained
musicians and thus wouldn't want to endorse Peter's generalization, I
don't buy this general take either. (It may be true of the New York
Phil; I have no way of knowing what its members would like to be
playing.) A local chamber orchestra consisting largely of music students
has constant conflicts with its director when he wants to play music
composed since 1900.
Some attitudes I've encountered among schooled musicians include:
Free improvisation is dubious because it's open to fakery. All free jazz
is fraudulant because you just play random notes. A considerable amount
of technique is required to play good music (used to dismiss Arto
Lindsay). A considerable knowledge of theory is required to be a real
musician (used to dismiss Bootsy Collins). Three of these claims were
made by people who attributed their views to their schooling.
Of course, the director of the local chamber orchestra mentioned
above is also a schooled musician. The point isn't that schooled
musicians are in general narrow in their appreciation of music, but only
that some are. I doubt that those with attitudes like the ones I've cited
are the rule, but I also doubt that they're as much an aberration as
George suggests.
I also think Peter has a point, although I don't think schooling has
much to do with it. Many musicians do overrate technique's importance, to
the point of admiring other musicians for their speed rather than their
music. But I've encountered this attitude among only
non-conservatory-trained musicians (like myself). This might indeed be
one reason why someone thinks Marsalis is a genius.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:01:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
> I haven't seen a performance of that piece, but I saw Pat Metheny perform
> Electric Counterpoint and found the live performance kinda pointless. I
> could see doing a version with all the parts live, or listening to the
> all-recorded record. However, there didn't seem to be much of a reason
> that that one part which was done live was singled out from all the
> others, and the live performance struck me as a poor compromise with the
> music (though it was well played).
I saw this piece performed by a guitarist other than Pat Metheny (I forget
his name) in 1990 or 1991. The principle interest of the live performance
seemed to be the danger of the live part getting out-of-sync with the
tapes. I can imagine that this would be less evident in a well played
performance than in the painful but, in retrospect, amusing trainwreck I
witnessed.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:09:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
> The problem with him is not what he plays so much as what he says. He
> seems to have decided that the stuff he plays (tonal,
> harmonically-structured jazz, hewing closely to its traditions as
> established before, say, 1965) is the ultimate form of music, and that
> everything that has followed is worthless. He has repeatedly derided rock,
> funk, and free playing.
But he also has some interesting things to say about the importance of
technique over race mythologizing notions of "soul" and the focus of
contemporary pop on adolescent emotional and intellectual states as
symptomatic of a cultural sickness. I actually like what the man has to
say, even though I frequently disagree with him. It's just unfortunate
that he's the only jazz musician the mainstream press will talk to.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:18:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Julian wrote:
> So, those
> who were talking about Wynton a while ago, could you explain to me what it
> was that you disliked about him?
My major problem with him is that much of his work that I've heard seems
rhythmically stiff. (I'm thinking mostly of _Black Codes from the
Underground_ and _Marsalis Standard Time Vol. 1_ here.) He subdivides the
beat all over the place, but it's so precise-sounding, I feel like I can
hear him counting. In other words, it doesn't swing.
More recent recordings I've heard by him didn't strike me this way, so he
may have gotten over it.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn's sense of humor
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Artur Nowak wrote:
> (BTW: does ZORN has sense of humor? Anybody
> knows?)
I would be horrified to discover that titles like "Purgatory of Fiery
Vulvas" are not intended to be humorous. Not to mention "Gob of Spit".
Actually, I think _Torture Garden_ and the first two Painkiller records
are, among other things, hysterically funny pretty much all the way
through. Most of Zorn's records seem to me to have a good dose of humor.
Check out also the track on _Locus Solus_ (I forget the title) that breaks
down when Zorn can't contain his laughter at Christian Marclay's choice of
record.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:30:09 -1000
From: sfunk@pop.adn.com (Stephen Funk)
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
Sorry Christopher... I sent this to you instead of the list...
>>My major problem with him is that much of his work that I've heard seems
>>rhythmically stiff. (I'm thinking mostly of _Black Codes from the
>>Underground_ and _Marsalis Standard Time Vol. 1_ here.) He subdivides the
>>beat all over the place, but it's so precise-sounding, I feel like I can
>>hear him counting. In other words, it doesn't swing.
>>
>>More recent recordings I've heard by him didn't strike me this way, so he
>>may have gotten over it.
>>
>
While I'm not really into Marsalis or the "Marsalis controversy", I did
pick up "Blood on the Fields" and it swings often and is an admirable and
enjoyable piece of work...
Just my 2 cents.
- - Steve
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:48:20 +1000
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Music School vs. Music Lover
Gee, we got some pretty long posts for this topic. Thanks for all the
input. I think I can make a bit of sense of all this...
I was classically trained, then moved to jazz, but all the while I was
listening to music that I would say is doing new or interesting stuff or at
least was at the time eg Zorn, Bungle, Ruins, Primus. It's all the
listening and learning from music like this that gives me my appreciation
for whatever music I like, add the training and you get a better
understanding of the music. So my friend who likes Wynton Marsalis, he was
also classically trained, but he listened mainly to classical and straight
jazz. So I think that basically explains the initial example, obviously you
can't make broad generalisations, but hey, that's music for you.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:57:50 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
Ken Waxman writes:
> I think what Chris was trying to address is the concept among SOME
> trained msuicians that only they can understand exactly what's happening
> in certain musics. The sort of falacy that you really aren't appreciating
> Jim Hall or Ed Bickert or whomever because you don't realize that he just
> snuck a quote in from "Hothouse" in the middle of bar 23 of "God Bless the
> Child" (just made that up for a bad, quick example).
>
> The other fallacy when it comes to some sort of music, including
> the creative, improvised stuff we like, is that only critics and "fans"
> can't appreciate it, "true" musicians have the training to know what's
> going on.
>
> This is particularly funny when you recall that the main people who put
> down both Monk and the early avant garde were musicians of the older
> school -Roy Eldridge, Kenny Dorham, Andre Previn, Sonny Stitt, Buddy
> DeFranco etc. My supposition was because they how the instrument SHOULD
> sound when they heard Ayler or Monk or whomever not making those sounds,
> they felt they couldn't properly be playing music.
I agree with all of this, which is well put. Hell don't forget that
Louis Armstrong called be-bop "Chinese Music" when he first heard it,
and not because he was a world beat afficionado.
But I'm not going to stress more or less faith in any type of listener,
vis-a-vis acceptance of expression over technique. People with musical
training can have ears of cloth and souls of lead, as can people with no
training whatsoever. I'm against snobbery, and the snobbery of saying
non-trained music lovers have more sensitivity as listeners is no better
than the snobbery that's of the "I know more than you kind."
Oscar Peterson is someone who comes to my mind, a tremendous piano
player who says nothing of musical value to me, as a trained musician.
But he does say things of value to other musicians, and non-musicians,
just as he also does nothing for non-musicians. Go back to Wynton,
who's got training out his own ass; he can't stand the music of Lester
Bowie or Cecil Taylor. They both have technique like you wouldn't
believe, so what's the problem there? It's wrong to say this or that
group likes this or that kind of music. And again, I do not have
anything to say critically about any group of listeners, I'm just
sticking up for one that got knocked down.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:02:10 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Music Scores
Holy splicing block, Batman, I forgot to mention an all-time great film
score; "Blade Runner" by Vangelis.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:25:50 EDT
From: FUNKADELlC <FUNKADELlC@aol.com>
Subject: plicky plicky plock
okay okay okay.... someone gimme the lowdown on Henry Cow... should i shell
out my money for this stuff?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:58:38 +0100
From: "allen j huotari" <zmasada@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
the clarinet piece in question is "New York Counterpoint"
released on the cd NEW YORK COUNTERPOINT by Richard Stoltzman
(cat no RCA Red Seal 5944-2-RC)
ajh
- -----Original Message-----
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com <peter_risser@cinfin.com>
To: zorn-list@xmission.com <zorn-list@xmission.com>
Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 7:15 PM
Subject: Re[3]: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
>
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, George Grella wrote:
>
>> It is "Vermont Counterpoint," but it's for a flute soloist [who has
>> previously overdubbed parts on tape]. It has been recorded on ECM, but
>> I don't think the CD currently is in print - I've actually been looking
>> for it for a few years now, ever since a friend performed the piece in
>> recital.
>
>I'm not sure what the name was, but I definitely saw a Reich piece
performed by
>8 clarinets and 3 bass clarinets. I'd never really been into his stuff
before,
>but live it was definitely very cool.
>
>PeterR
>
>-
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 20:14:53 PDT
From: "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: the residents
Hello, Residents Nation:
I have never heard the Residents. Some day I will remedy this. But I
HAVE heard of them, and I've heard they are from Shreveport, La. I'm
from there (I'm there right now, which is too damn bad.) Is this rumor
true, and have they ever revealed their identities?
Scott
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:23:08 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: plicky plicky plock
FUNKADELlC wrote:
>
> okay okay okay.... someone gimme the lowdown on Henry Cow... should i shell
> out my money for this stuff?
Grab the first album (the one with Nirvana for Mice) immediately! Then
go for the "Concerts" album.
I find that I admire the others more than I actually listen to them.
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:10:19 EDT
From: Dgasque <Dgasque@aol.com>
Subject: Bible Launcher
Just got this a couple of days ago, and i'll have to say that it lives up to
its "infamy" as I had hoped. Maybe not as musically intense as I thought it
would be (I was thinking on the lines of, say, Borbetamagus...), but the mere
thought of impassioned fire and brimstone sermons mixed with porn film
soundtracks does have a way of being intense in its own diabolical way...I
should have known what was coming with a CD booklet that sports a page with
pics of Pope JPII and Traci Lords side by side.
Exactly why was this CD pulled by Tzadik?
=dgasque=
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:32:49 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Reich boxset
brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
> Um, isn't it safe to say that, a
> priori, ANY piece called 'Stonehenge' is going to be awful?
Surely you jest, my friend.
"And you, my love / Won't you take my hand / We'll go back in time / To that
mystic land / Where dew drops cry / And the cats meow / I will take you there /
I will show you how..."
And where are they now, the little people of Stonehenge?
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:50:09 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Tim Berne & David Sanborn
Caleb Deupree wrote:
> This morning on my way to work I listened to Berne's album Diminutive
> Mysteries, his tribute to Julius Hemphill, which includes David
> Sanborn as a sideman. This seems like an uncharacteristic pairing,
> and I was wondering if anyone had information on how this came to
> pass, whether they played live or toured together, etc.
Everyone's pretty much explained all the ins and outs of this, so I'd
just add that I don't believe Berne and Sanborn ever toured this material
or even performed it here in town. The one tape of live Diminutive
Mysteries material I've got features Oliver Lake instead of Sanborn...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:04:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gauthier Michelle A <7mag2@qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: re: the residents
The Residents have never officially revealed their identities-- yet there
is profoud speculation/rumors as to who they actually are...
I know many people MUST know who they in fact are, such as other
musicians... I've been told that Fred Frith has played with them before.
I have always heard that they hailed from San Francisco-- or at least if
they are from La, they didn't remain there too long.
I heard that they acquired their name like this:
They showed up at a club that they were not even booked to perform at, got
up on the stage and just began playing "music"... people were asking their
band name, astonished by the music... their only claim was that they were
the "residents" of this club at that particular time... the name
supposedly stuck after that....
In any event, this band is unbelievable. I encourage anyone to grab
Eskimo and Hell... actually, grab any album you can! It's all amazing.
michelle
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Scott Handley wrote:
>
> Hello, Residents Nation:
>
> I have never heard the Residents. Some day I will remedy this. But I
> HAVE heard of them, and I've heard they are from Shreveport, La. I'm
> from there (I'm there right now, which is too damn bad.) Is this rumor
> true, and have they ever revealed their identities?
>
> Scott
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:18:34 +0200
From: Julien Quint <Julien.Quint@xrce.xerox.com>
Subject: OST
On the original soundtracks subject: I found recently the original soundtrack
for the movie "The Blue Kite" by none other than Otomo Yoshihide. The music is
very beautiful, a main theme repeated different times with variations (even
played with toy instruments...) as well as some dialogue excerpts from the
movie, some them very moving even if you can't understand Chinese (and I
can't.) Among the musicians, besides Otomo, are two guys from Altered States /
Ground Zero, I don't know about the other ones.
It's on Milan Asia and also has short but sweet liner notes by Otomo. This was
his first film score, and it's a nice piece of work. I know that he composed
other film music since (for at least seven other movies according to the
Internet Movie Database), does anyone know about other film scores available?
*
Julien
Julien Quint Member of the MLTT Resarch Staff
Xerox Research Centre Europe julien.quint@xrce.xerox.com
6, chemin de Maupertuis phone: +33 (0)4 76 61 50 38
38240 Meylan, France fax: +33 (0)4 76 61 50 99
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:45:42 -0400
From: jkan@javanet.com
Subject: re: the residents
At 01:04 AM 4/10/98 -0400, Gauthier Michelle A wrote:
>
>I heard that they acquired their name like this:
>They showed up at a club that they were not even booked to perform at, got
>up on the stage and just began playing "music"... people were asking their
>band name, astonished by the music... their only claim was that they were
>the "residents" of this club at that particular time... the name
>supposedly stuck after that....
The version I know is: a record company returned a demo tape to them, but
was apparently unable to decipher their name from the cryptic (pun
intended) packaging, and so addressed the package to "residents."
The liner notes on my copy of _Meet the Residents_ (Ralph Records garage
sale, $2 according to the sticker still on the cover...) mention their
having been in college in Louisiana, although the relationship between that
text and reality might be, umm, complex....
Anyone go to their 25th Anniversary shows in S.F. last year? The Cube-E
show that I saw would be on my top n list -- if I had one, that is. Not
that I'm saying I have such a thing, of course....
Jim
//=========================================================================
// Jim Kan (jkan@javanet.com)
//
// However far you may travel in this world, you will still occupy
// the same volume of space.
// Traditional Ur-Bororo saying
//=========================================================================
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #320
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