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Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, April 8 1998       Volume 02 : Number 314



In this issue:
-
       Re: Winter & Winter
       Varese and "experimenting"
       Re: DIGEST! WHAT'S GOING ON?
       Re: Crimson
       UN-Bargain Bins
       Re: Experimental and FNM
       Re: ECM
       Re: Top 20.
       Re: reich/trane
       Steve Reich boxset
       Re: DIGEST! WHAT'S GOING ON?
       Re: Experimental and FNM
       Re: FAITH NO MORE
       Re: Mezz
       KC
       Re: Varese
       Tim Berne & David Sanborn
       Re: KC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:54:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Winter & Winter

Not widely available. I'm been looking for a copy of the Uri Caine disc
for months. Everyone's heard of it. It's even been reviewed (favorably)
but it's nowhere to be seen.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]






On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> Dan Hewins wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know who carries Winter & Winter discs? (online or mail order)
> > I have been trying to find the Big Satan disc and I am interested to see
> > what else they have...
>
> Allegro, starting in May, here in the states.  But I was under the impression
> that the label's been widely available in Canada for some time now...
>
> Steve
>
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:13:26 -0700
From: "Allen Gittelson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Varese and "experimenting"

I am reminded of the following quote from one of my favorite composers:

I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I
make the music.
                                   - Edgar Varese

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:27:19 +1000
From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: DIGEST! WHAT'S GOING ON?

Erm, anybody else finding the digest is working very weirdly indeed
these days? Multiple messages *all over the place* and digests even
coming in the wrong order... List-owner, help!
- --
Peter Hollo    [e-mail]    http://www.cia.com.au/raven/
             FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
              http://www.cia.com.au/raven/fourplay.html
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:25:09 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Crimson

DR S WILKIE wrote:

> I'm intrigued that Caleb Dupree, in an otherwise comprehensive
> Crimson rundown, omits entirely any mention of Earthbound
> (which must be mark 1), which is a kick butt, live and
> groovy, funked up piece of jazzy R'n'B improv mayhem.  (Some people
> think it's garbage but they're wrong).

They are wrong, yes, but "Earthbound" is still not an especially good
representation of what this band could do.  Mel Collins was a godlike
reeds player in those days, Fripp was frequently at his most aggressive,
and Boz and Ian were a frequently capable rhythm section.  The problem
was that the latter two didn't want to play in Fripp's chosen genre and
struggled from underneath to subvert the system, and Mel tended to go
with them.

Furthermore, "Earthbound" was poorly recorded, and I'm also convinced
that Fripp made his programming decisions for the LP in order to
demonstrate just how *bad* the band had become on the second U.S. tour.
It's true that the version of "21st Century Schizoid Man" is a killer,
but so many other things are just wrong, and including two meandering
scat jams on one LP seems like a deliberate diminution of the band's
strengths.  And it ends with just about the most listless and bloated
version of "Groon" of any I've heard.

I'm hopeful that enough time has passed that Fripp will now see his way
clear to compiling some of the best material for the "official bootleg"
of this band, "Ladies of the Road," due by the end of the year.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:47:04 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: UN-Bargain Bins

Craig Rath wrote:

> Now my question for you is:  What is the most you have spent on a single
> disc?  I'm not talking about boxed sets, just one disc, by itself.

I paid about $39.99 apiece for the Japanese Sony pressing of "Cynical Hysterie
Hour" and the Terrapin (which is actually also Japanese Sony) pressing of the
first SXL album "Live in Japan" (not "Into the Outlands").  Both on visits to New
York before I moved here, both at the late, lamented DMG predecessor Lunch for
Your Ears, and in both cases Manny told me, "Buy this now, you'll never see it
again" and was right (the Tzadik version of "Cynical" aside).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:26:25 -0300
From: Gabriel Lichtmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Experimental and FNM

     I have to say I got a bit disappointed when I read some of the answers
to the suggestion that FNM is an experimental band. I couldn't believe that
someone thinks that "throwing a piano out of a window" is being
experimental. =BFWas he trying to define chance?=BFis this all those years o=
f
investigation by people like Cage mean to him/her? =BFWhere do Harry Partch,
AMM, Stockhausen, and Pierre Henry, fit according to this definition?. I
have the strange feeling that too many people here like "experimental
music" just because it's strange, because they want to impress their
friends. Seems to me that the market needs to recycle itself every five
years; ten years ago the only thing that was important was how proficient
technically a musician was and which music school did he go to (Pat Metheny
and Steve Vai are both a product of that era); five years later Grunge
"ruled" and all that mattered was songwriting, feeling over technique, and
being "normal" with a bit of existential angst; and nowadays everybody is
tring to be "experimental", and "weird", the term electronica is being used
to define almost anything with a drum machine, suddenly Arto Lindsay is
well known and listened, an "The Wire" and Tortoise are the coolest thing
around. Be careful, experimentation alone is just empty aestheticism, and
just as bad as the things you are criticizing. For example, =BFwhat does it
mean that FNM is pragmatic or eclectic?, correct me if I'm wrong, but "The
White Album", Zorn, Miles Davis, and King Crimson could also fall into
those categories.
     I'm not interested in odd time signatures or virtuosism, if I wanted
to be shocked by someone's skills or weirdness I would go to a circus; no
wonder so many of you have confessed a fondness for Yes. In my case, I
prefer punk-rock.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:17:03 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ECM

Alan E Kayser wrote:

> I must agree that the current version of ECM is pretty lame.  However,
> way back in ancient history, the 70s, they put out quite a few excellent
> LPs.

I agree, and I would use as proof some examples even further out than those
Alan mentioned:

1005 The Music Improvisation Company (Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, Hugh
Davies, Jamie Muir, Christine Jeffries)
1013 David Holland and Derek Bailey - Improvisations for Cello and Guitar

I note that to this day, even though they haven't reissued either of these
on CD, they still proudly proclaim Bailey as part of their lineage of great
guitarists in their print catalogs.

and of course there's the mighty Paris Concert by Circle...

I also think that lately things are looking up for ECM.  Sure, they're still
releasing a fair amount of twaddle, but if that enables them to record the
Evan Parker electroacoustic thing, Marilyn Crispell, and the Roscoe Mitchell
Note Factory (as yet unreleased but featuring a killing frontline of
Mitchell, Hugh Ragin, and George Lewis, and two rhythm sections, Matt Shipp
and Craig Taborn on pianos, William Parker and Jaribu Shahid on basses, and
Tani Tabbal and someone I can't remember on drums - someone exceptional, I'm
just spacing right this minute) then I'll try to turn a blind eye and hope
for more.  As will we all, I suspect.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:28:43 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Top 20.

Peter Hollo wrote:

> [*NOTE: Does anyone else thing a Great Jewish Music Music: Kurt Weill
> compilation would be superb?

Yessir, you betcha.  Sign me up. Weill is incredible.  I used to end my
college radio program ('86-'88) every single week with the beautiful version
of "Speak Low" on the Wilner-directed tribute "Lost in the Stars."  And that
record also contained some of the first Zorn, E# and Henry Threadgill I ever
heard.  Monstrously influential, and certainly paved my path to "The Big
Gundown."  Plus Stan Ridgeway's version of the "Cannon Song" rocked hard
then and still does now.  As for Lou Reed's version of "September Song,"
give me Jimmy Durante any day...

(But I'm also still hoping for the Stanley Eisen / Chaim Witz collection...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:53:12 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: reich/trane

Tom Pratt wrote:

> btw, no one answered my Coltrane question... Is the material from the
> 2-LP 'Concert In Japan' on the 4-CD 'Live In Japan'(Impulse)?

Yes, it is, plus a whole hell of a lot more.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:17:23 +0200
From: Julien Quint <[e-mail]>
Subject: Steve Reich boxset


ia zha nah er vesen <[e-mail]> said:
> So, were all the compositions in the Reich Box rercorded especially
> for it?  What an expensive undertaking...

No, the box set contains all the original recordings published by Elektra
(e.g. "Different Trains", etc.) and new recordings of works published
elsewhere (e.g. "Drumming" or "Music for 18 musicians"), so only a part of the
recordings is new. I was under the impression that the box had about anything
Reich had done up to this point, but maybe some pieces are missing. Can't tell
you which one though; I don't have the box yet (I'll buy it after I get the
Miles Davis one.)

*
Julien


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: DIGEST! WHAT'S GOING ON?

Peter Hollo, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>Erm, anybody else finding the digest is working very weirdly indeed
>these days? Multiple messages *all over the place* and digests even
>coming in the wrong order... List-owner, help!

    I'm all over it. Should be fine now. The culprit
    was a funky mailer in Switzerland (I thought they
    were perfectionists...what's the deal).

    In the future, please email me directly about
    list probles rather than cluttering everyones
    mailbox.

    cheers,
    mike rizzi
    zorn-list-owner

- --
[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
- -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:35:59 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Experimental and FNM

Basically that person who mentioned "chance" and "indeterminacy" was
completely off the mark. That has nothing to do with the general idea of
experimental music. Experimental means exactly what it sounds like -
experimentation, as in doing something different, fiddling around with what
is usually done. So that is why that other person said quite correctly that
FNM wasn't experimental in playing different styles. I would call their
stuff on Angel Dust experimental - they play rock music like it has never
been played before on that album. But their concept on King For A Day
(playing varied styles from country to metal) isn't since all the music has
basically been done before.

Chance and indeterminacy (in the sense that you meant it) only come into
those 20th century works of such composers as Cage and Varese, and of
course Zorn. And as that _other_ person said, these days it isn't still
called experimental since the ideas have already been formulated,
everyone's going to stand around and follow these weird little graphs and
make appropriate noises at appropriate times. But of course, generally
these terms come into all music from all musical periods...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:52:24 -0500
From: Howie Voigt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FAITH NO MORE

[FNM is eclectic, not experimental.]
> "founded on or derived from experiment," says webster's.  i grant
> you that in dealing with the arts, that definition can be vague.
> however, what you described was eclecticism - genre hopping.  that
> doesn't necessitate that fnm is experimental.

I don't necessarily think FNM is simply genre hopping.
A lot of times they do tend to genre hop, and a lot of times
they tend to fuse two genres (or more) into the same song.
If one day in 1989 I was sitting in my room and I decided
to write a song that would fuse metal, funk, and rap I'd
think it was experimental.  But then again, the Accused
and maybe Suicidal Tendencies already did it...ah pooey.

The first Zorn-related thing I heard was Naked City "Torture
Garden".  I thought that was great because it was something
new.  But really all they do is genre hop 20 times within
the same 1 minute song.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is I don't like to use the term
experimental nor progressive (too many demo "prog rock" bands
sound like King Crimson so I don't see it being progressive).
I like or dislike a recording based on originality and
overall enjoyment.  If a band creates a sound that is very
original and refreshing I like it without evaluation.
If a band creates music that triggers a feeling inside me that
I want brought forth then I like it without evaluation.

The first time I hear a recording I usually know if I like it
or not.  If I like it I see no point in setting criteria such
as "is this purely experimental" "what are their views on music
like" "are they pop?" "are they less original that John Zorn?"
I've tried countless times to become one of these elitists
but really I'm no different than a pop fan, I like what I like. =)

Just to make things clear I'm not offended by anything said on
the list nor meaning to offend anyone in particular.  Just decided
to speak my views on the subject.
Maybe one thing offended me, saying you are "disappointed"
with other people's music tastes is asinine. (^_^)

One more thing is I think a lot of people like FNM because
of their relation to Mr. Bungle (which is probably considered more
experimental to people).  Likewise a lot of people like Mr. Bungle
for the same reason.

Me?  Yes I like FNM.  And Portishead, Peter Gabriel, the Cure,
Slayer, Black Sabbath, Napalm Death, the Accused, Emperor,
John Zorn, Univers Zero, Arcturus, Bill Laswell, At The Gates,
Diamanda Galas, Buckethead, Celtic Frost etc.  Those are some
favourites.

Take care!
Howie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 05:31:44 -0500
From: Mike Beiderbecke <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mezz

Weighing in about something that happened way before my time,

Mr. Waxman says;
>Take anything Mezz sez with a large grain of salt (or maybe the type of
>spliff Mezrow would have preferred). Let's just say he and the truth
>were little more than distant cousins.

In reply to Mr Knox who said in part;
>> He talks about some pretty crazy binges with Bix as well...

To which I add,

        Too true, but the blurred memories of Mr. Mezzrow, despite their
only glancing intersection with fact, makes for some really fun reading.
Jazz, and the players, the way they were perceived, 20 years after the
facts. The chapter of definitions and sample conversations is worth the
price of admission. But a snoozing Bix being awakened for his 16 bar solo
with the Whitman Orchestra is true.

                  Ah, the fabulation of history.....





******************************
        Just Browsing?
   http://idt.net/~beider19
******************************


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:33:25 -0400
From: David Oskardmay <[e-mail]>
Subject: KC

OK, I'm finally delurking for a quick^H^H^H^H^H Crimson recommendation..

When King Crimson 'Discipline' came out in '80, it was the biggest kick
in the head of my young and impressionable youth.  Don't miss this one
whatever you do.  The 70's KC is really a different band, but also
required listening.
It's really difficult to pick one to start with.  The Fripp compilations
give a good overview of the studio work.  Which leads to the other point
many seem to make--Crimson is/was a live band.  I second the motion on
USA, but I don't think it has been reissued on CD (yet).

As for comparing Crimson to other bands, and I guess this is a more
general comment, I've never really had much interest in drawing
comparisons.  Either it takes you there, or not.  If it works for you,
go for it.  So now we can make some comparisons.. The 90's KC hasn't yet
rocked me as much as the earlier bands, but it's still the live animal.
Look for more new stuff from
KC subprojekts at your favorite convenience store...

In short, buy! buy! buy!

see youse,
    david

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:04:01 EDT
From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Varese

Thank you Allen for the following quote:

I am reminded of the following quote from one of my favorite composers:

I do not write experimental music. My experimenting is done before I
make the music.
                                   - Edgar Varese

I was reminded of that myself and couldn't think of who'd said it - I was
thinking Ives. And if memory serves, the line after the above was "Now it is
the listener who must experiment."


Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:28:58 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Tim Berne & David Sanborn

This morning on my way to work I listened to Berne's album Diminutive
Mysteries, his tribute to Julius Hemphill, which includes David
Sanborn as a sideman.  This seems like an uncharacteristic pairing,
and I was wondering if anyone had information on how this came to
pass, whether they played live or toured together, etc.

- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:30:14 +0200 (MESZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KC

> It's really difficult to pick one to start with.  The Fripp compilations
> give a good overview of the studio work.  Which leads to the other point
> many seem to make--Crimson is/was a live band.  I second the motion on
> USA, but I don't think it has been reissued on CD (yet).
yes it has....japan only : )

BJOERN
http://www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #314
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