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utah-firearms-digest    Wednesday, October 6 1999    Volume 02 : Number 160




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 17:35:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"

- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0700
From: JPFO Alerts <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP
America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization

September 23, 1999

Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"

"Gun control" survives as an idea because most
Americans believe one single myth:

"YOU DON'T NEED A GUN BECAUSE THE POLICE PROTECT YOU FROM CRIME."

If you don't know exactly why that statement is a lie,
then you cannot destroy "gun control."

If you can't effectively rebut that statement, then you
cannot make the strongest positive case for private firearms
ownership.

Anti-gun lobbyists get away with proposing to completely disarm
the citizens only because most citizens just assume the police
will protect them. That assumption is false. The police cannot
protect everyone -- IN FACT THE POLICE USUALLY HAVE NO LEGAL
DUTY TO PROTECT ANYONE.

Dial 911 and Die, the new book available now, proves
this fact. For nearly every American state and territory,
this book shows how the police owe no legal duty to protect
individuals from crime. THE POLICE IN MOST PLACES DO NOT
EVEN HAVE TO COME WHEN YOU CALL.

Gun prohibitionist lobbyists, politicians and media
have sold Americans the myth of police protection. Schools
teach youngsters to "Dial 911." There was a television
program with "911" in the title. That phone number is
perhaps the best known in the country. A generation of
Americans has come to trust a telephone number for self-
defense.

Government authorities and media pundits never told
Americans about the dark side of 911. Too many Americans
have dialed 911 and died because the police did not or could
not help them.

Dial 911 and Die kills the logical root of "gun
control" ideology. Erase Americans' blind faith in police
protection, and a rational person who faces a risk of
criminal attack on himself or his loved ones would never
voluntarily allow himself to be disarmed.

ERASE THE MYTH OF POLICE PROTECTION, AND "GUN CONTROL:
DIES AS AN IDEA ... PERMANENTLY.

How often do the gun prohibitionists use the recent
spate of murderous attacks on schools, businesses, community
centers and churches as reasons for "gun control"? When you
understand the concept in Dial 911 and Die, those reasons
evaporate. Each of those cases highlights that the police
were powerless and unable to prevent or stop those attacks.
Emergency 911 service is available almost everywhere in the
U.S. -- and it was worthless against those armed attackers.

The unarmed victims of criminal attack and their
families cannot get compensation from the city governments
that failed to protect them in these famous terrible cases.
The only people on location when the attackers came were the
victims themselves. At the same time, the prevailing laws
and anti-gun culture made sure those victims were unarmed.
Police help was too little, too late.

THOSE MURDEROUS EVENTS DO NOT PROVE THE NEED FOR "GUN
CONTROL" -- THEY PROVE THE UTTER INABILITY OF THE POLICE TO
PROTECT INDIVIDUALS FROM VIOLENT CRIME. Police typically
investigate crimes after the fact -- they don't prevent very
many crimes. And the laws in nearly every state say that
the police don't even owe a duty to protect individual
citizens. Citizens are on their own -- and the sooner they
know it, the better.

There are many excellent arguments against "gun
control." Only one argument destroys its logical root.
Master that argument. Get DIAL 911 AND DIE for yourself,
your local talk host, your local NRA leaders, your family,
your local libraries. Read the harrowing, gut-wrenching
stories of crime victims who tragically depended upon police
to help. See how the courts just dismiss the victims'
appeals out of hand. You'll never look at your telephone --
or your gun rights -- the same way again.

To Order:

One copy . . . . 11.95 postage paid
6 copies . . . . 44.95 postage paid
12 copies  . . . 79.95 postage paid
Case (58 books) 349.95 postage paid

These are USA prices. Foreign orders call for pricing.

On-line ordering: http://www.jpfo.org/dial911anddie.htm

See the on-line ordering page for an image of the cover.

The Liberty Crew at JPFO

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
PO Box 270143
Hartford, Wisconsin 53027

Phone: [phone]
  Fax: [phone]
http://www.jpfo.org/

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to:

[e-mail]

Then respond to the confirmation message you will get back.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 17:35:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: GOA: Doolittle Motion Passes, 337-73

Shoot Out On Capitol Hill Results In Conflicting Messages
* but pro-gun leaders win key, though symbolic, victory

(Friday, September 24, 1999) -- Supporters of gun rights in the House of
Representatives charged the floor today with an arsenal of high-powered
arguments in defense of 2nd Amendment liberties.  Led by Rep. John
Doolittle (R-CA), pro-gun Republicans defied their leadership in presenting
an extremely cogent case in defense of our freedoms.

"It's not the right of the army," Doolittle roared.  "It's not the right of
the National Guard."  The Second Amendment "says 'the right of the
people'-- [it's] an individual right."

Doolittle cited constitutional authorities from James Madison to Laurence
Tribe in making his point that the Second Amendment protects an individual
right.  He also quoted the highly acclaimed Dr. John Lott in making the
simple point that "more guns equal less crime," as he waved a copy of
Lott's new book for the cameras.

GOA On The Front Lines
In anticipation of this floor fight, lobbyists from Gun Owners of America
yesterday provided pro-gun offices with dozens of self-defense incidents
from this year alone.  Pro-gun Rep. Helen Chenoweth (R-ID) took the list
and read self-defense example after example on the floor of the U.S. House
of Representatives.

"The stories go on and on," Mrs. Chenoweth concluded.  "In fact, a 1997
Clinton Justice Department study found that as many as 1.5 million people
use a gun in self-defense every year."

The anti-gun side could offer no rebuttal to this point.  Regardless, they
remained entrenched in opposing the motion made by Rep. Doolittle.  His
motion instructs House negotiators to drop any provision that infringes on
the 2nd Amendment rights of individuals-provisions like the ban on private
sales at gun shows, which can only be surmounted by the buyer's submitting
to a background registration check; a new gun ban for young adults; an
import ban on magazines holding more than 10 rounds; etc.

The Doolittle motion passed overwhelmingly by a vote of 337-73.  Also, an
earlier motion instructing the conferees to work every day until they reach
an agreement on the crime bill was narrowly defeated.  However,
representatives then sent a "conflicting" message when they voted to
instruct the conference members (241-167) to include gun show registration
checks in the final version of the bill.  The latter motion, offered by Zoe
Lofgren of California, directly contradicts the Doolittle motion.  While
contradictory messages are not unique on Capitol Hill, one should realize
that all of the motions were non-binding. The conferees could report a gun
bill out of committee as early as next week, or not at all if sufficient
opposition from gun owners is heard.

GOP And Democratic Leaders United In Their Support For Gun Control
Republican leaders like Rep. Bill McCollum (R-FL) took the floor to explain
that he and many other members of the House want to impose the instant
registration check at gun shows.  House Judiciary Chairman, Henry Hyde
(R-IL), also echoed similar opinions yesterday.

On the Democratic side, the anti-gunners were led by Rep. Lofgren (D-CA).
 She argued that the 2nd Amendment does not protect an individual right,
and that the anti-gun crime bill which is currently in conference does not
conflict with the Second Amendment.

ACTION:  Please thank those members of Congress who spoke up so eloquently
in the defense of the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms.  They are
Representatives Doolittle, Chenoweth, Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD), and John
Hostettler (R-IN). BUT NOT MERRILL COOK, JIM HANSEN and CHRIS CANNON.

Contact Info:
House of Representatives
Ph: 888-449-3511 or 202-225-3121

Rep. John Doolittle (CA-4th)
Ph: 202-225-2511
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]

Rep. Helen Chenoweth (ID-1st)
Ph: 202-225-6611
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (MD-6th)
Ph: 202-225-2721
Fax: [phone]
No e-mail

Rep. John Hostettler (IN-8th)
Ph: 202-225-4636
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]

**************
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use http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/goa.htm to enter their online store.

**************
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To unsubscribe, reply to any alert and ask to be removed.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:52:48 -0700
From: Joe Waldron <[e-mail]>
Subject: STROBE TALBOT'S VISION--TREASON

I wonder how the Bill of Rights will fare under Talbott's vision of the
future?  Sounds like treason to me....  For those that believe this
article to be off-topic, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

JW


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1999 19:02:55 ET XXXXX

TALBOTT: NEXT CENTURY, AMERICA WILL NOT EXIST IN CURRENT FORM, 'ALL
STATES WILL RECOGNIZE A SINGLE, GLOBAL AUTHORITY'

Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott believes the United States may
not exist in its current form in the 21st Century -- because nationhood
throughout the world will become obsolete!

Talbott, who is profiled in the NEW YORK TIMES on Monday [for the second
time in six months], has defined, shaped and executed the Clinton
administration's foreign policy. He has served at the State Department
since the first day of the Clinton presidency.

Just before joining the administration, Talbott wrote in TIME magazine
- -- in an essay titled "The Birth of the Global Nation" -- that he is
looking forward to government run by "one global authority."

"Here is one optimist's reason for believing unity will prevail ...
within the next hundred years ... nationhood as we know it will be
obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority," Talbott
declared in the July 20, 1992 issue of TIME.

"A phrase briefly fashionable in the mid-20th century -- 'citizen of the
world' -- will have assumed real meaning by the end of the 21st."

Talbott continued: "All countries are basically social arrangements,
accommodations to changing circumstances. No matter how permanent and
even sacred they may seem at any one time, in fact they are all
artificial and temporary."

Talbott's belief that the United States of America and other nations are
"artificial and temporary" continues to cause a rift inside of the State
Department, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"I think we are losing sight that we work for the American taxpayer, not
Russia, not Asia," one State Department veteran told the DRUDGE REPORT
in Washington. "Mr. Talbott is completely consumed with world order and
has alienated many career employees here. [His] attitude borders on
obsession."

In recent months, Talbott has come under fire for his stand on Russia.
The policy of financial and political engagement with Russia as
revelations pour forth of massive money-laundering schemes has made
Talbott the target of critics, reports John Broder at the TIMES.

"We have to be calm and steady and have a clear sense of purpose,"
Talbott tells Monday's NEW YORK TIMES.

"One of my modest suggestions to the world is strategic patience. We
have to be calm and steady and have a clear sense of purpose when that
dynamic is discouraging, as it is today," Talbott tells the TIMES.

Global government has proven to be slightly more complicated than one
optimist dreamed.

- -----------------------------------------------------------
*
* NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 <U.S.C.> Section 107, this material
is
* distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a
* prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research
and
* educational purposes only.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:35:49 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FW: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"

I've read _Dial 911 and Die_ and recommend it without reservation.  My full
review wil be posted later this week.

Sarah

At 06:35 PM 09/25/1999 , you wrote:

>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0700
>From: JPFO Alerts <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>
>ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP
>America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization
>
>September 23, 1999
>
>Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control"
>
>"Gun control" survives as an idea because most
>Americans believe one single myth:
>
>"YOU DON'T NEED A GUN BECAUSE THE POLICE PROTECT YOU FROM CRIME."
>
>If you don't know exactly why that statement is a lie,
>then you cannot destroy "gun control."
>
>If you can't effectively rebut that statement, then you
>cannot make the strongest positive case for private firearms
>ownership.
>
>Anti-gun lobbyists get away with proposing to completely disarm
>the citizens only because most citizens just assume the police
>will protect them. That assumption is false. The police cannot
>protect everyone -- IN FACT THE POLICE USUALLY HAVE NO LEGAL
>DUTY TO PROTECT ANYONE.
>
>Dial 911 and Die, the new book available now, proves
>this fact. For nearly every American state and territory,
>this book shows how the police owe no legal duty to protect
>individuals from crime. THE POLICE IN MOST PLACES DO NOT
>EVEN HAVE TO COME WHEN YOU CALL.
>
>Gun prohibitionist lobbyists, politicians and media
>have sold Americans the myth of police protection. Schools
>teach youngsters to "Dial 911." There was a television
>program with "911" in the title. That phone number is
>perhaps the best known in the country. A generation of
>Americans has come to trust a telephone number for self-
>defense.
>
>Government authorities and media pundits never told
>Americans about the dark side of 911. Too many Americans
>have dialed 911 and died because the police did not or could
>not help them.
>
>Dial 911 and Die kills the logical root of "gun
>control" ideology. Erase Americans' blind faith in police
>protection, and a rational person who faces a risk of
>criminal attack on himself or his loved ones would never
>voluntarily allow himself to be disarmed.
>
>ERASE THE MYTH OF POLICE PROTECTION, AND "GUN CONTROL:
>DIES AS AN IDEA ... PERMANENTLY.
>
>How often do the gun prohibitionists use the recent
>spate of murderous attacks on schools, businesses, community
>centers and churches as reasons for "gun control"? When you
>understand the concept in Dial 911 and Die, those reasons
>evaporate. Each of those cases highlights that the police
>were powerless and unable to prevent or stop those attacks.
>Emergency 911 service is available almost everywhere in the
>U.S. -- and it was worthless against those armed attackers.
>
>The unarmed victims of criminal attack and their
>families cannot get compensation from the city governments
>that failed to protect them in these famous terrible cases.
>The only people on location when the attackers came were the
>victims themselves. At the same time, the prevailing laws
>and anti-gun culture made sure those victims were unarmed.
>Police help was too little, too late.
>
>THOSE MURDEROUS EVENTS DO NOT PROVE THE NEED FOR "GUN
>CONTROL" -- THEY PROVE THE UTTER INABILITY OF THE POLICE TO
>PROTECT INDIVIDUALS FROM VIOLENT CRIME. Police typically
>investigate crimes after the fact -- they don't prevent very
>many crimes. And the laws in nearly every state say that
>the police don't even owe a duty to protect individual
>citizens. Citizens are on their own -- and the sooner they
>know it, the better.
>
>There are many excellent arguments against "gun
>control." Only one argument destroys its logical root.
>Master that argument. Get DIAL 911 AND DIE for yourself,
>your local talk host, your local NRA leaders, your family,
>your local libraries. Read the harrowing, gut-wrenching
>stories of crime victims who tragically depended upon police
>to help. See how the courts just dismiss the victims'
>appeals out of hand. You'll never look at your telephone --
>or your gun rights -- the same way again.
>
>To Order:
>
>One copy . . . . 11.95 postage paid
>6 copies . . . . 44.95 postage paid
>12 copies  . . . 79.95 postage paid
>Case (58 books) 349.95 postage paid
>
>These are USA prices. Foreign orders call for pricing.
>
>On-line ordering: http://www.jpfo.org/dial911anddie.htm
>
>See the on-line ordering page for an image of the cover.
>
>The Liberty Crew at JPFO
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
>PO Box 270143
>Hartford, Wisconsin 53027
>
>Phone: [phone]
>   Fax: [phone]
>http://www.jpfo.org/
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to:
>
>[e-mail]
>
>Then respond to the confirmation message you will get back.
>
>
>
>-


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:02:08 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: NEA gun poll

>X-Sender: [e-mail] (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:24:25 -0600
>To: (Recipient list suppressed)
>From: Gunmoll <[e-mail]>
>Subject: NEA gun poll
>
>This is too good to miss!  The NEA wants to know "Would stronger gun
>control make schools safer?"
>
>Vote now!  http://www.nea.org/neatoday/
>
>As of now the vote is 95% no, and 5% yes.  I wonder if they really WILL
>print the results in the December issue....
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:19:05 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gun Owners about to get the shaft?

From today's DesNews.  Looks like Stephens is ready to sell us down the
river by standing our CCW law on its head and requiring permitees to ask
permission rather than requiring churches to post.  What is it going to
take convince "leadership" that guns are not a fringe issue they can deal
away like chips on a poker table?

dc

Coalition has guns in its sights

               Petition targets weapons in schools and churches

               By Jennifer Toomer-Cook and Bob Bernick Jr.
               Deseret News staff writers

                     While much work remains to be done, House Speaker
Marty Stephens said Tuesday there is a possibility that lawmakers and
citizens pushing a gun-control initiative can reach
               agreement ù and the initiative won't be needed after all.
                     Backers of the Utah Safe to Learn ù Safe to Worship
Coalition unveiled their long-awaited petition drive Monday.
                     The initiative is supported by Utah Children, Utah
PTA, State Board of Regents, State Board of Education, the American
Academy of Pediatrics, Salt Lake City Police Department and
               others.
                     "We are here today to make schools safe to learn and
churches safe to worship . . . to give voice to Utah citizens who in poll
after poll indicate they don't want guns in schools or places
               of worship," said former Salt Lake Mayor Ted Wilson, who
says he backs the initiative as a University of Utah faculty member.
                     Local religious leaders also spoke in favor of the
petition drive, calling current laws an "embarrassment."
                     But Tuesday, Stephens, R-Farr West, said he believes
the guns-in-churches issue can be solved relatively easily.
                     "I've met with leaders of all denominations,"
Stephens said, and an informal agreement has been reached whereby the
concealed weapons permit holders need permission from church
               officials to carry a gun on church grounds.
                     That gets around the sticky issue of churches having
to post signs saying "No Guns Allowed."
                     Concealed weapons in schools is a harder issue,
Stephens agreed.
                     Basically, if wording can be found that will allow
permit holders to carry their weapons on to school grounds to attend
"approved" school functions and to take and drop off their
               children, Stephens said that, in concept, is something
acceptable to him and perhaps to other members of the Utah House and
Senate Republican caucuses.
                     The coalition does support exemptions that would
include concealed weapons permit holders bringing students to and from
school and permit holders who secure firearms and place
               them out of sight in a locked, unoccupied vehicle.
                     Coalition leaders say the Legislature's reluctance
to deal with the politically charged issue of restricting legally
concealed weapons in schools and churches galvanized residents to take
               the matter in their own hands.
                     The aim, leaders said in a Monday press conference,
is to let voters decide whether to ban all firearms, with some
exceptions, on campus and in church.
                     Stephens said he wants Utahns to clearly understand
that lawmakers banned all guns from schools in 1993, except for legally
permitted concealed weapons and guns carried by law
               enforcement officers.
                     The question now is not whether kids can bring guns
to school. They can't. The question is only what to do with legally
permitted concealed weapons carried by law-abiding citizens,
               Stephens said.
                     Doug Bates, an attorney for the State Office of
Education, said the intent of the petition's language is to allow
concealed weapon permit holders to come on to school grounds for a short
               period of time to pick up or deliver children and so on.
It's not the intent of the petition to allow someone to attend a high
school football game, for example, and carry a concealed weapon.
               It's not the intent to allow school volunteers or teachers
to carry their concealed weapons on school grounds all day, Bates added.
                     Stephens said as the coalition has moved from the
extreme "to a more reasonable position," chances increase for an
agreed-upon solution in the 2000 Legislature.
                     Guns in schools is a hot topic nationwide following
a rash of school shooting across the country and at Colorado's Columbine
High School, which alone left 15 dead, including the two
               student gunmen.
                     In Utah, the issue has two sides. Gun rights
advocates say schools are sitting ducks without protection offered by
lawfully gun-toting citizens. Some have suggested Utah teachers
               receive firearms training.
                     Elwood Powell, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports
Council, a guns right group, calls the petition drive an agenda to disarm
residents and deny constitutional rights.
                     "The only people they are targeting are the most
law-abiding citizens who have fulfilled all the requirements for a
concealed weapons permit," Powell said. "I hope it has no success . . .
               from the response I hear from town meetings, citizens
themselves don't think much of it."
                     Educators contend guns have no place in class. They
fear concealed weapons holders brandishing weapons in a crisis and
confusing police or accidentally shooting an innocent
               bystander or child.
                     Utah lawmakers have discussed the issue since they
loosened the state's weapons laws to make it easier to obtain a concealed
weapons permit. The debate heightened this past summer
               when three months of interim committee meetings were
dedicated to the issue of guns, but lawmakers could not reach the
consensus Gov. Mike Leavitt requested for a special session.
               Lawmakers said they needed the 45-day session to fully
debate the issue.
                     The state's concealed weapons law, which allows a
permit holder to carry a gun without restriction, was updated last
legislative session to let churches and private property owners
               decide whether weapons are welcome on their properties.
                     But posting gun ban signs on places of worship is a
black eye to the community, said the Right Rev. Carolyn Tanner Irish,
Episcopal bishop of Utah.
                     "I think it is embarrassing to the state of Utah,
and I look forward to the time we can take those signs down," she said to
applause from about 50 supporters gathered at a state Capitol
               press conference. "(Churches) are sanctuaries where people
go in expecting to be . . . unprotected and available to the holy spirit
of God."
                     The proposed Utah Safe to Learn ù Safe to Worship
Act, which would be put to a public vote next year if the petition drive
generates enough signatures of support, would ban firearms
               in churches and their grounds and schools unless
administrators say otherwise under school policy or the weapons are
carried by law enforcement officers.
                     The act would apply to public and private schools,
pre-schools and child-care facilities; applied technology centers and
public and private higher education institutions; but not public
               sidewalks or streets adjacent to such facilities.
                     Violation of the act would be a class A misdemeanor
for firearms holders, a class B misdemeanor for those carrying other
dangerous materials.
                     The proposed act incorporates provisions from a 1993
state law that bans firearms from public schools.
                     Granite School District has banned all firearms on
school property under the 1980s law, which district officials believe
prevails over the vague concealed carry law. The Utah Board of
               Regents also has banned weapons on campuses of the state's
nine colleges and universities.
                     While those entities believe their policies are
sound, the petition drive is necessary to relieve doubt once and for all,
said Bates, state director of school law and legislation.
                     The citizen drive must gather 67,188 signatures in
20 of Utah's 29 counties. Signatures collected must equal at least 10
percent of the county's voter turnout in the 1996 election.
                     Listed among the groups supporting the petition in
hand-outs given Monday by coalition leaders is the League of Cities and
Towns. But league executive director Ken Bullock said the
               league does not support the petition. "Our board was never
asked to support it, it doesn't and I don't anticipate that it will"
support the petition, Bullock said.

==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:32:52 -0400
From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gun Owners about to get the shaft?

There is an asnwer to this.  Get the  GO-Utah and the USSC together and
organize a counter petition.  Get petition signatures from downtown and
everywhere.  Name the petition:

Keeping Utah Schools and Churches Safe

Explain that disarming victims only makes it more likely something will
happen.  Do it on the streets in a petition.

Chad
from NH though he goes to SLC on average once a month now

- --On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 1:19 PM -0600 charles hardy
<[e-mail]> wrote:

>> From today's DesNews.  Looks like Stephens is ready to sell us down the
> river by standing our CCW law on its head and requiring permitees to ask
> permission rather than requiring churches to post.  What is it going to
> take convince "leadership" that guns are not a fringe issue they can =
deal
> away like chips on a poker table?
>
> dc
>
> Coalition has guns in its sights
>
>                Petition targets weapons in schools and churches
>
>                By Jennifer Toomer-Cook and Bob Bernick Jr.
>                Deseret News staff writers
>
>                      While much work remains to be done, House Speaker
> Marty Stephens said Tuesday there is a possibility that lawmakers and
> citizens pushing a gun-control initiative can reach
>                agreement =97 and the initiative won't be needed after =
all.
>                      Backers of the Utah Safe to Learn =97 Safe to =
Worship
> Coalition unveiled their long-awaited petition drive Monday.
>                      The initiative is supported by Utah Children, Utah
> PTA, State Board of Regents, State Board of Education, the American
> Academy of Pediatrics, Salt Lake City Police Department and
>                others.
>                      "We are here today to make schools safe to learn =
and
> churches safe to worship . . . to give voice to Utah citizens who in =
poll
> after poll indicate they don't want guns in schools or places
>                of worship," said former Salt Lake Mayor Ted Wilson, who
> says he backs the initiative as a University of Utah faculty member.
>                      Local religious leaders also spoke in favor of the
> petition drive, calling current laws an "embarrassment."
>                      But Tuesday, Stephens, R-Farr West, said he =
believes
> the guns-in-churches issue can be solved relatively easily.
>                      "I've met with leaders of all denominations,"
> Stephens said, and an informal agreement has bee

Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC
Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting
Chad Leigh
[e-mail]            [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:22:00 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mail from the NRA

I received a credit card application from the NRA saying they wanted me
back as a member and would give me a free one year membership in the NRA
if I simply applied for, received, and then used the visa card they were
offering.

I don't think it will make a bit of difference, but it is on their dime
(postage paid return envelope) so this is what I am sending back to
them--and all I am sending.

Dear NRA Mail Solicitor

Please consider this letter as your official notice to remove the above
name and address from your mailing list for any and all credit
applications.  Cease and desist from all future credit solicitations by
mail.

Furthermore, until such time as the NRA takes an unequivocal stand in
defense of my absolute right to peaceably own and carry firearms do not
bother with ANY mail solicitations.

When the NRA quits appeasing  gun grabbers by supporting bad legislation,
when they file and win suits to overturn gun control laws based on the
2nd amendment, when they oppose background checks as infringements on my
right to own and carry a gun, when they quit supporting the "lesser of
two evils" by endorsing back-stabbing Republicans and Democrats over
pro-gun Independants or Libertarians, when they start a full court press
for "Vermont Carry" in my or any other State of this great Union, please
let me know.

Until that time, my support, both financial and otherwise, goes to Gun
Owners of America (GOA) and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms
Ownership (JPFO) and not to the NRA (National Republican Apologists).

Thank you,



Charles C. Hardy


==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

___________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:44:02 -0600
From: "Will Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:44:02 -0600

From the NEA today online.  (neato-iddn't nice to know
that the NEA done grajyated to words like "neato"?  What's
next?  "Daddy-o"? "keen"? "Neato-burrito"?

This is the first time I have ever seen an online poll
with more than 80% for anything.  Keep up the good
work.  Wingnuts UNITE!  hehe

***********************************
Thanks for your vote

Would Stronger Gun Control Laws Make Schools Safer?
1% Yes votes
99% No votes

Return to NEATO home page.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 99 22:41:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy opinion

- -----
To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:35:03 -0600
Subject: FW: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy opinion
From: "Jim Dexter" <[e-mail]>

- ----------
From: SSAA <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy
opinion Date: Thu, Sep 30, 1999, 10:47 PM

Sandi Logan is counsellor of public affairs for the Embassy of Australia.
Washington, D.C. Address is Sandi Logan Washington Bag Locked Bag 40
KINGSTON  ACT  2604

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: [e-mail]
Subject: Letters to the Editor
Date: Thursday, 23 September 1999 11:08

P. Peake Research Section Sporting Shooters Association of Australia Inc.
166 Keymer Street Belmont, Western Australia 6104 Ph/Fax [phone]

23 September 1999

Letters to the Editor
The Washington Times
3600 New York Ave. NE
Washington, D.C. 20002

Dear Editor

Sandi Logan's defence of the Australian government's confiscation of 640,000
firearms and the supposed impact it has had on crime rates in Australia
overlooked a number of important points (Washington Times, 9/13/99).

First, the available data-sets for considering the efficacy of the scheme
are grossly inadequate.  The government's 'buyback' program concluded in
September 1997.  This means at best there is no more than two years worth of
information to hand and much of what is available is fragmentary.

Assuming that some sort of trend could be discerned however, what has come
to light indicates little if any reduction in the overall rate of some
crimes and a considerable increase in others.  There is a clear upward trend
in method substitution, especially where armed robberies and suicides are
concerned; blood filled syringes are rapidly becoming the weapon of choice
among street criminals, while asphyxiations and poisonings now outstrip
firearm related suicides by several fold.

Similarly, the number of violent home invasions has continued to increase,
as have violent assaults and car thefts.  Logan's assessment also
overlooked the fact that firearm related accidents were actually lower
during the period immediately prior to the government's program.

Given the $500,000,000 lifted from taxpayers in order to fund the scheme and
the often incestuous relationship between government departments and the
anti-gun lobby in Australia, one can understand the authorities willingness
to cleave to statistical straws. Looking at the available evidence however,
any fair-minded assessment could only conclude that the whole exercise has
had no significant impact on crime in Australia.

Your sincerely,


Paul Peake
Research Section
Sporting Shooters Association of Australia Inc.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 18:09:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: ALERT! GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!!

- -----
To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:42:53 -0600
Subject: FW: ALERT! GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!!
From: "Jim Dexter" <[e-mail]>

Note: If Colt, Glock and S&W stop selling handguns to the civilian market,
they'll go out of business. The following is offered FWIW
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE !!ALERT!!
Chris W. Stark - Director P.O. Box 1924
Crosby, Texas 77532-1924
Ph. [phone] Fax [phone]
http://www.GOA-Texas.org
email: [e-mail]

GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!!

Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its
original state.

NOTE FROM CHRIS W. STARK, DIRECTOR OF GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE:

Be sure to scroll down to the bottom of this alert to receive the contact
information for the gun manufacturers listed in this alert (Courtesy of Gun
Owners Alliance).

Copyright by Neal Knox http://www.nealknox.com

Sept. 26 update -- There will be a meeting in Washington tomorrow between
three major handgun makers and the attorneys general of New York and
Connecticut, and Philadelphia Mayor Ed Rendell.

Glock, Colt's and Smith & Wesson, who are attending the meeting, reportedly
are interested in negotiating their way out of lawsuits by governmental
agencies.

Industry sources tell me Glock is in the process of shutting down private
sales of handguns, and Colt's is positioned to do so.

Another long gun maker who produces a relatively few handguns has already
stopped handgun production in antipation of whopping increases in liability
insurance unless they get out private sales of handguns. They haven't
announced the shutdown of their handgun production, and it could resume if
the exhorbitant insurance cost is reduced; but right now that doesn't seem
likely.

****UPDATED BULLETIN NEWS FLASH!!****

Oct. 4 Neal Knox Update -- Saturday's New York Times contained details of
last Monday's meeting between key gunmakers and most of the cities suing
them for providing the less than one-half of one percent of their guns used
in crimes.

According to the Times, the attendance list was much broader than previously
reported. It included Ed Shultz, chief executive of Smith & Wesson, and
officials from Sturm, Ruger & Company, Colt's Manufacturing, O. F. Mossberg
& Sons, Taurus, Glock and Beretta.

Although discussions were preliminary, participants on the cities' side of
the table were optimistic because Robert Delfay, president of National
Shooting Sports Foundation, "was behind a carefully developed framework that
provided common ground for both sides in the talks."

The municipalities' demands, which were described as a "wish list" were
presented by the City Attorney of Los Angeles. The "most important and
far-reaching ... was that the gun companies establish tighter contractual
control over their chain of distribution to wholesalers and then retailers,
and so curb the supply of handguns to criminals and juveniles through
corrupt dealers. Any dealer who was found by Federal tracing to be providing
a sizable number of guns used in crimes would lose his supply of products
from the manufacturer."

Other demands, the Times reported, were that the industry prohibit its
dealers from selling handguns at gun shows or on the Internet, stop
advertisements claiming that handguns increase safety in homes, and support
legislation limiting customers to one handgun purchase a month.

Further, the cities wanted the companies to require external locks on all
guns and, by 2004, to produce guns that only its owner could fire.

The industry reportedly responded that the cities should lobby for an
increased budget for BATF to expand its oversight.

Notably missing from the meeting were makers of low-cost handguns and
lawyers for New Orleans, Newark, Chicago, Detroit and several other cities.

# # # # # # # #

NOTE FROM CHRIS W. STARK, DIRECTOR OF GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE:

Let's apply some tremendous pressure to these traitors. We need to voice our
outrage of this "sell-out", by contacting the gun manufacturers that are
involved in this sellout listed below:

Smith & Wesson 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield, MA 01104 Tel:
1-800-331-0852 Fax: [phone] [e-mail] [e-mail]

Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc. P.O. Box 1868 Hartford, CT 06144-1868
Tel: [phone] Fax: [phone] (no e-mail address)

O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. 7 Grasso Ave. North Haven, CT 06473 Tel:
1-203-230-5300 Fax: [phone] [e-mail]
[e-mail]

BERETTA U.S.A. CORP. 17601 Beretta Drive ACCOKEEK MD 20607 Tel:
1-301-283-2191 Fax: [phone] (no e-mail address)

Glock, Inc. 6000 Highlands Parkway PO Box 369 Smyrna, GA 30082 Tel:
1-770-432-1202 Fax: [phone] (no e-mail address)

Taurus International Firearms 16175 NW 49th Avenue Miami, FL 33014-6314 Tel:
1-305-624-1115 Fax: [phone] (no e-mail address)

Sturm Ruger & Co, Inc. 134 Old Post Road Southport, CT 06490 Tel:
1-203-259-4537 Fax: [phone] (no e-mail address)


Support the work of Gun Owners Alliance! Go to:

http://www.goa-texas.org/members.htm
(c) 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if
this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. The views herein do
not necessarily reflect the views of any other individual or organization,
than Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). We do not officially represent Gun
Owners of America. Go to http://www.goa-texas.org/TXsig.htm for more
information.

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to:

[e-mail]

...and in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe".



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------------------------------

End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #160
***********************************