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utah-firearms-digest   Wednesday, September 15 1999   Volume 02 : Number 158




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:02:12 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: two men drop out of the tank...begin automatic weapons fire

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:48:21 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: two men drop out of the tank...begin automatic weapons fire
Mime-Version: 1.0
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This one is for Karl!

"you can see two men drop out of the tank escape hatch, roll over and =
begin automatic weapons fire into the building."=20
- ---------------------------------------------------



Message: 2 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:36:57 -0500 From: schuetzen <chasm@ins=
ync.net> Subject: (fwd) Waco on Nightline! Evidence Seized!=20

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:52:33 -0400, [e-mail] (Neal Knox) wrote: 1 =
a.m. Sept. 2 Neal Knox Report --=20

Ted Koppel's ABC Nightline just blew the lid off the Waco story, stating =
that U.S. Marshals seized evidence of FBI lying about whether pyrotechnics =
had been used at Mt. Carmel. After a devastating setup piece that showed =
parts of Mike McNulty's new soon-to-be-released film, including the =
evidence photo of the M651 pyrotechnic 40mm CS grenade that wasn't =
supposed to exist.=20

And the setup showed a reduced-size segment of the FLIR thermal-imaging =
tape, which you couldn't see unless you knew what to look for.=20

But viewers could hear the voice-over in which a FLIR expert was saying =
(approx.) "you can see two men drop out of the tank escape hatch, roll =
over and begin automatic weapons fire into the building."=20

That is the same segment that showed flashes in the Academy Award =
nominated "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," co-produced by McNulty and Dan =
Gifford.=20

But that version had been reprinted too many times to show the clearly =
visible black forms roll out of the tank and start shooting.=20

The new tape had been turrned over by FBI as a result of a Freedom of =
Information Act request filed by old friend Dave Hardy, who was featured =
in the interview segment of Nightline, going against chief FBI Hostage =
Negotiator at Waco, Byron Sage -- who is retired but is serving as an FBI =
front man.=20

Sage said that FBI told him this afternoon that the tape given to U.S. =
Marshals was that same FLIR tape taken from a circling aircraft on the day =
of the assault and fire. Sage said the FLIR tape simultaneously recorded =
tactical conversations of HRT FBI agents discussing the use of military =
pyrotechnic cartridges.=20

In response to Koppel's question, he said the uplink would have been heard =
live in the Waco command post and probably live or in near-real time "in =
the Washington, D.C. area."=20

What do you want to bet the tactical uplink was being heard other than in =
the FBI Headquarters -- like in the White House situation room.=20

Hardy read from the document he had obtained from his FOIA request in =
which FBI told him there were no audiotapes made, and that what he had =
received was an unedited first-generation copy of the original.

Sage said audio tapes were made on the FLIR tape only in the early =
morning; that no audio was made later in the day.=20

Hardy immediately said that was another case of perjury, for the FOIA =
claimed no tapes were made until 10:42 on the morning of the fire.=20

At Hardy's charge of perjury, Sage nervously looked at someone off-camera.=
=20

The tape seized by Marshals was "discovered" at the HRT Headquarters at =
Quantico.=20

Incredibly, in a Clinton-like parsing of words, Sage at another point =
claimed that the FBI's statements that "no incendiary devices were used" =
was actually true because "the two devices in question" were not fired at =
the wooden structure which burned.=20

Kopel challenged him on that nit-picking, and was obviously angry about =
what is going on, grumbling that FBI's credibility is down while that of =
Waco conspiracy theorists is "newly enhanced,"=20

Koppel all but called for Attorney General Janet Reno's resignation, =
opening the program by recalling his 1993 interview with her in which Ms. =
Reno said she "accepted full responsibility for the FBI's actions" at =
Waco.=20

He said he had asked if she intended to emulate Japanese officials who =
resigned when bad things happened in their commands. She said, "No."=20

Koppel said that stance had brought her great approval, and him great flak =
for having asked the question.=20

"Accepting responsibility without consequences is meaningless," Koppel =
said.=20

Let's see what the Clinton Administration's spin doctors do with this.=20

- ------------------- This morning's (Sept. 2) Dallas Morning News, which =
has been on point on these new revelations, thanks to conversations with =
McNulty and Hardy, says that more evidence than just the audio tape was =
taken by U.S. Marshals. -- You are receiving this message because you are =
subscribed to the Firearms Coalition Alerts list. To unsubscribe send mail =
to [e-mail] with the word "unsubscribe" in the body. =
Archives of these messages are stored at http://www.nealknox.com/alerts/. =
Copyright (c) 1999 Neal Knox Associates. All Rights Reserved. chas =
RKBA!=20


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:08:33 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Radio Host Alan Stone on Waco

>Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:53:12 -0500
>    From: schuetzen <[e-mail]>
>Subject: (fwd) SNET: [piml] Burned by Waco --by Alan Stone
>
>On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:24:25 EDT, [e-mail]  wrote:
>
>
>->  SNETNEWS  Mailing List
>
>Burned by Waco
>
>http://www.thenation.com/issue/950918/edit.htm=20
>
>On July 26 I sat for almost fourteen hours in a hearing room waitin g to
>testify before Congress on the tragedy at Waco, and watched a dismal
>performance. The full story of Waco is complicated, and its details have
>never been fully grasped by most Americans. Yet none of the Representative=
s
>seemed committed to a searching inquiry into what went wrong, and the
>committee's working rules seemed designed to achieve gridlock. Each of =
the
>thirty members was allocated five minutes on every round of questioning,=
=20
>but
>rather than use their time to ask probing questions or confront e vasive
>answers, most of them postured for the TV cameras and read statements
>prepared by their staffs. As the day progressed, I had the sinking =
feeling
>that Waco would end the way it had begun: with government officials
>grandstanding before the American p eople but demonstrating only their
>ineptitude.
>
>As a member of the Justice Department's 1993 panel appointed to make
>recommendations in the aftermath of Waco, I had become convinced that the
>Branch Davidian disaster was caused largely by law-enforceme nt =
bungling.=20
>The
>military-style raid by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and=20
>Firearms,
>which set off the disaster, has never been justified. Sexual abuse of
>children is a crime that does not come under the jurisdiction of the=20
>A.T.F.;
>that issue ha d already been investigated by the proper Texas authorities.=

>Even if the A.T.F. had probable cause to serve warrants for illegal=20
>firearms,
>there was never any reason to do so in the form of an assault on a =
compound
>filled with women and children, risking an all-out firefight.
>
>Of course the Branch Davidians had no legal or moral justification for
>shooting federal agents. But the agents knew that the Branch Davidians
>believed that Judgment Day was at hand and that, as the Bible prophesied,=
=20
>the
>true bel ievers were to die in battle with the evil forces of government.=
=20
>In
>fact, David Koresh had taught them that they must die in battle so =
they=20
>could
>be resurrected in glory.
>
>During the day I sat in the hearing room, an A.T.F. agent wept as he =
gave=20
>his
>v ersion of the first day's events: that the agents were victims of a
>firefight in which the other side had bigger guns and shot first. He=20
>praised
>the gallantry of his fellow agents and said nothing about the recklessness=

>and overreaching of the law-enforce ment operation. None of the
>Representatives challenged his version of what happened.
>
>The F.B.I. agents who later took over at Waco and who planned the =
final=20
>tank
>and C.S. gas (as tear gas is known) attack on the Branch Davidian =
compound
>also testifie d that day. Like the A.T.F. agent, they came with lawyers =
and
>handlers. But they had no need to consult them; they were easily able to
>evade the occasional sticky question. I had spoken with these agents when =
I
>was preparing my report in 1993, and now I w atched as they closed =
ranks=20
>and
>put the best face on everything. None of the Representatives noticed =
when=20
>the
>serious disagreements between tactical forces and negotiators, previously
>acknowledged, were papered over. The crucial question of whether the F.
>B.I.'s aggressive siege tactics had pushed the Branch Davidians to mass
>suicide was never really addressed.
>
>My own panel finally testified late in the day and long into the =
evening.=20
>It
>included experts addressing Janet Reno's decision to use C.S. gas for
>forty-eight hours despite the presence of babies, who cannot be =
protected=20
>by
>gas masks. The Attorney General maintained that she had been assured that
>C.S. gas would not cause permanent harm to babies, but the available=20
>medical
>literature contained c onvincing evidence of life-threatening risk. The
>experts on both sides made statements that could and should have been
>challenged, but the committee never got to the bottom of this or any =
other
>difficult question.
>
>I was not present when Attorney Gene ral Reno testified, taking full
>responsibility for the tragedy. Unfortunately, the vexing questions about
>Waco have little to do with such political accountability. We still need =
to
>know what went wrong so that we can make sure it will not happen again. =
F=20
>or
>example, does law enforcement need special rules of engagement for =
dealing
>with unconventional groups like the Branch Davidians? Does it make sense =
to
>treat religious zealots like regular criminals? Will law enforcement=20
>continue
>to use C.S. gas in encl osed spaces where children are present? The =
hearing
>process, instead of being a careful inquiry into such questions, was
>political theater of the absurd. If right-wing extremists find it =
difficult
>to believe that Waco was the result of ineptitude, incompe tence and
>grandstanding by government officials, they need only study the tapes =
of=20
>the
>Waco hearings.
>
>
>
>
>Alan Stone, professor of law and psychiatry at Harvard Law School, was a
>member of the Justice Department's behavior science pan el evaluating
>government action at Waco.
>
>
>Copyright (c) 1995, The Nation Company, L.P. All rights reserved.=20
>Electronic
>redistribution for non-profit purposes is permitted, provided this =
notice=20
>is
>attached in its entirety. Unaut horized, for-profit redistribution is
>prohibited. For further information regarding reprinting and syndication,
>please call The Nation at [phone], ext. 213 or send e-mail to
>[e-mail].
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:06:58 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: History Channel Pol - Should the Second Amendment be repealed?

>From: "Nancy" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject:  History Channel Pol - Should the Second Amendment be repealed?
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:26:45 -0400
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0
>
>
>Hi All,                      www.historychannel.com  , It's running a poll
>(Should the right to bear arms be repealed)  as of 9/3 ________
>Yes 20.8%
>No 79.2%
>
>The history Channel is pretty much pro Gun. Maybe we'll get lucky and they
>use this poll. Go Vote!
>
>Nancy


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:14:59 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: LPU: FW: GOUtah! Opposes Teachers as Cops Proposal by USSC

dc
==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

- --------- Forwarded message ----------

- ----------
 GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah

UtahÆs Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No
Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever.

Information Release to All Media- 2 September 1999

GOUtah! Rejects Recent USSC Proposal to Deputize Utah School Teachers or
Hold Utah Mental Health Providers Personally Responsible for Behavior of
their Patients

As a broad-based network of responsible firearms owners in Utah, we at
GOUtah! are concerned that the recent public policy proposals by
leadership
of the Utah Shooting Sports Council may not be in the best interests of
either the individual Utah firearm owner, public school educators and
students or the public at large.

According to recently published media reports, Mr. Elwood Powell,
Chairman
of the Board of Trustees of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and
President
of the Utah State Rifle and Pistol Association, the Utah state NRA
affiliate
organization, apparently proposed at a lunch-hour debate before the Salt
Lake Rotary Club that 25% of Utah public school teachers be armed,
trained
as POST-certified law enforcement officers, and duly sworn with full
powers
of arrest, in order to provide a enhanced security presence in public
schools. Powell reportedly also called for holding professional mental
health providers personally liable if patients under their care do not
take
their medication or are not properly adjudicated as mentally ill by a
court
of law.

GOUtah! does not support the proposed concept of forcing Utah school
teachers to serve double duty as sworn law enforcement officers in the
public schools. We believe educators should focus their professional
efforts
on the legitimate educational needs of their students, and duly-sworn law
enforcement officers should deal with issues of investigation of criminal
behavior and apprehension of violent criminals.

GOUtah! recognizes the long-established legal precedent that those
private
citizens who have been issued a concealed firearms permit do not hold any
greater authority for the use of deadly force than that held by any other
private citizen. The concealed firearms permit only provides
authorization
to the licensee to have a concealed firearm, for lawful self-defense,
concealed on or about their person as the go about their normal daily
activities. Individually and as a group, those who have received a
concealed
firearms permit have and continue to exhibit exemplary personal behavior,
and are not a threat to themselves or the public at large.

GOUtah! also takes exception to published comments attributed to Ms.
Susan
Kuziak, Executive Director of the Utah Education Association, the stateÆs
largest teacherÆs labor union. Ms. Kuziak was quoted as stating
ô...teachers
should educate children, not execute them." GOUtah! believes inflammatory
statements of this nature are both demeaning to the character, reputation
and integrity of UtahÆs dedicated professional educators, law enforcement
officers and responsible firearms owners, and such comments add nothing
to
help clarify the issues of this admittedly emotional public policy
debate.
GOUtah! believes that UtahÆs concealed firearms permit holders, which
most
certainly include some of UtahÆs professional educators, administrators
and
support staff, are responsible, safe and prudent citizens, and should not
be
discriminated against, publicly demeaned or treated as second-class
citizens
because they choose to take responsibility for their personal security
and
do so in compliance with the law.

Finally, Mr. PowellÆs proposal to modify the basic nature of the
doctor-patient relationship by making a health care provider personally
responsible and legally liable for the behavior of a patient or the
patientÆs compliance with a suggested course of therapy or prescribed
course
of medication, is a dangerous and ill-advised step down a very slippery
slope, thus shifting responsibility for personal behavior or clinical
outcome from the individual patient to a health care provider.

- -end-

Release prepared by Scott Engen, Legislative and Public Policy
Director, GOUtah!

For comment or for more information on GOUtah! please phone (801)
943-2523,
E-mail to   [e-mail]    or visit our website at
www.slpsa.org/goutah!


________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail you don't need Web access to use --
Or get full, reliable Internet access from Juno Web!
Download your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagh.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 22:23:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: CCW stuff

- -----
To: [e-mail]
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:44:28 -0600
From: "Chris Kierst" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CCW stuff

FYI

Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification CCW web site:
http://www.bci.state.ut.us/cfdefault.html

Time Magazine Gun Poll Results:
http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html

These are some great poll results to dump at Susan Kubiak and the Gov.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Sep 99 17:22:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: GOUtah! Opposes Teachers as Cops Proposal by USSC

- ----------
GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah

Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise.
No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever.

Information Release to All Media- 2 September 1999

GOUtah! Rejects Recent USSC Proposal to Deputize Utah School Teachers
or Hold Utah Mental Health Providers Personally Responsible for
Behavior of their Patients

As a broad-based network of responsible firearms owners in Utah, we
at GOUtah! are concerned that the recent public policy proposals by
leadership of the Utah Shooting Sports Council may not be in the best
interests of either the individual Utah firearm owner, public school
educators and students or the public at large.

According to recently published media reports, Mr. Elwood Powell,
Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Utah Shooting Sports Council
and President of the Utah State Rifle and Pistol Association, the Utah
state NRA affiliate organization, apparently proposed at a lunch-hour
debate before the Salt Lake Rotary Club that 25% of Utah public school
teachers be armed, trained as POST-certified law enforcement officers,
and duly sworn with full powers of arrest, in order to provide a
enhanced security presence in public schools. Powell reportedly also
called for holding professional mental health providers personally
liable if patients under their care do not take their medication or
are not properly adjudicated as mentally ill by a court of law.

GOUtah! does not support the proposed concept of forcing Utah school
teachers to serve double duty as sworn law enforcement officers in
the public schools. We believe educators should focus their
professional efforts on the legitimate educational needs of their
students, and duly-sworn law enforcement officers should deal with
issues of investigation of criminal behavior and apprehension of
violent criminals.

GOUtah! recognizes the long-established legal precedent that those
private citizens who have been issued a concealed firearms permit do
not hold any greater authority for the use of deadly force than that
held by any other private citizen. The concealed firearms permit only
provides authorization to the licensee to have a concealed firearm,
for lawful self-defense, concealed on or about their person as the
go about their normal daily activities. Individually and as a group,
those who have received a concealed firearms permit have and continue
to exhibit exemplary personal behavior, and are not a threat to
themselves or the public at large.

GOUtah! also takes exception to published comments attributed to Ms.
Susan Kuziak, Executive Director of the Utah Education Association,
the state's largest teacher's labor union. Ms. Kuziak was quoted as
stating "...teachers should educate children, not execute them."
GOUtah! believes inflammatory statements of this nature are both
demeaning to the character, reputation and integrity of Utah's
dedicated professional educators, law enforcement officers and
responsible firearms owners, and such comments add nothing to help
clarify the issues of this admittedly emotional public policy debate.
GOUtah! believes that Utah's concealed firearms permit holders,
which most certainly include some of Utah's professional educators,
administrators and support staff, are responsible, safe and prudent
citizens, and should not be discriminated against, publicly demeaned
or treated as second-class citizens because they choose to take
responsibility for their personal security and do so in compliance
with the law.

Finally, Mr. Powell's proposal to modify the basic nature of the
doctor-patient relationship by making a health care provider
personally responsible and legally liable for the behavior of a
patient or the patient's compliance with a suggested course of
therapy or prescribed course of medication, is a dangerous and
ill-advised step down a very slippery slope, thus shifting
responsibility for personal behavior or clinical outcome from
the individual patient to a health care provider.

- -end-

Release prepared by Scott Engen, Legislative and Public Policy
Director, GOUtah!

For comment or for more information on GOUtah! please phone
[phone], E-mail to [e-mail] or visit our website
at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah!


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Sep 99 13:25:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: Repeal the second amendment?

- -----
To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 02:33:57 -0600
From: Ron Amos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Repeal the second amendment?

Take the Poll, quickly before they take it down.

http://www.historychannel.com/



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 07:15:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: GOUtah! Alert #30 - 13 September 1999 1/2

GOUtah! Alert #30 - 13 September 1999

Today's Voice of Liberty:

"Do not be afraid of your enemies-in the worst case they can kill you;
Do not be afraid of your friends-in the worst case they can betray you;
Be afraid of the indifferent ones: It is from their silent blessings that
all the evil is happening in the world!

- -- Bruno Yasensky, a Russian writer.

If you wish to be added to the GOUtah! list, please log onto our website
at http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! or send an e-mail to [e-mail]
or send a fax to [phone] asking to be added to the GOUtah! list.
If you wish to forward or share this copyrighted information with others,
you are welcome to do so, on the condition that you pass along the entire
document intact and unmodified, and that GOUtah! is clearly indicated as
the original source of the material, unless otherwise noted.

Federal Government Offers $15,000,000 of Your Tax Dollars as Grants for
Local Gun Buyback and Firearm Destruction Programs Nationwide

The Clinton administration has announced a tax-funded federal grant program
to give $15,000,000.00 (Yes...Fifteen Million Dollars) to fund local gun
buyback programs in cities throughout the country. The grants will be
administered by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, from
tax funds already appropriated by Congress. Up to $500,000.00 (Yes...a Half
Million Dollars) will be available in each local grant.

According to published media reports, the program is NOT intended to get
guns out of the hands of criminals. Instead, the intended target audience
is average urban citizens living in or near public housing projects, and
all guns so collected will be destroyed. Only those guns proven and
documented to be stolen may be returned to their rightful owners, and all
guns will allegedly be tested to see if they have been used in crimes.

"While you are working on reducing the sale of guns to people..., you also
need to do something about reducing the number of guns that are currently
in circulation." said HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo, a Clinton appointee and
the son of former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, as quoted in an L.A. Times
story, reprinted in the Salt Lake Tribune, 9 September, 1999

GOUtah! believes that by focusing on those individuals living in or near
public housing projects, a disproportionate percentage will be the poor,
the elderly and members of minority groups. Clearly this 'public housing
focus' again demonstrates the economic and racial bias that underscores the
basic premise of virtually all such gun control efforts. In other words,
the Washington political and media elite clearly don't think 'those people'
should be trusted with gun ownership. Yet 'those people' are the ones who
also make up a disproportionate percentage of victims of violent street
crime, and clearly if anyone needs a firearm as their means of lawful self
defense, it's 'those people.' GOUtah! believes that our good and peaceable
citizens have a basic right to self defense and to private firearms
ownership for any lawful purpose, regardless of race, social class or
economic status.

The Clinton administration, by implementing this program, apparently
believes that a 60 year old Puerto Rican widow of modest income living in
public housing, who has a .38 in her bedroom dresser drawer for self
defense, is a much greater threat to the safety and security of our society
that the 16 convicted Puerto Rican revolutionary terrorists this same
President recently pardoned from long felony sentences and released from
federal prison. The scores of terrorist bombings and vicious campaign of
violence attributed to these revolutionary extremists resulted in the
deaths of a half dozen innocent people, serious injury to scores of others
and millions of dollars in property damage over the span of nearly a decade.

GOUtah! suggests that you contact each of your U.S Senators and Congressmen
from Utah today and DEMAND that they defund next year's U.S. Department of
Housing and Urban Development budget by a full $15,000.000.00, and then by
a further $30,000,000.00 as a budget penalty for deliberately wasting
taxpayer dollars to help undermine gun rights, for a total budget defunding
of $45,000,000.00 (Yes...Forty-Five Million Dollars.)

Hopefully the loss of almost $50,000,000.00 dollars of their annual budget
might get the attention of the HUD bureaucrats and cool their enthusiasm
for this monumental waste of tax funds and deliberate assault on gun rights
of American citizens.

Utah State Board of Education Admits Statutory Defeat, Votes to Join
Anti-Gun Initiative Petition Driver.

The Utah State Board of Education voted unanimously to join the anti-gun
coalition of the UEA, the state's largest teacher's labor union, the PTA,
the Utah System of Higher Education and a variety of church groups, to
gather signatures for a ballot initiative banning firearms, including those
otherwise legally possessed and those legally carried by Utah CCW holders
from churches, schools, college campuses, and some other settings.

The Board of Education has tacitly admitted, by their lack of adoption of a
gun policy banning CCW holders, that the language of the Utah State
Constitution and the current state statute establishing the Utah CCW permit
as 'valid without restriction' is superior to the authority of any lesser
political body or political subdivision to limit the validity of the permit
or establish gun law or policy.

The Utah Hospitals and Health Systems Association has suddenly withdrawn
their support for the anti-gun petition drive, further demonstrating the
deep division that seems to be developing within the coalition before the
final petition drive even begins. The anti-gun initiative petition, after a
number of unexplained delays, is now scheduled to be launched at a news
conference at the State Capitol on Monday, 27 Sept. Reports have reached
GOUtah! that the staff attorneys of the Utah Attorney General's Office,
under the leadership of Jan Graham, the state's highest ranking elected
Democrat and a leading voice in the anti-gun chorus in Utah, were also
instrumental in drafting of the specific language of the anti-gun
initiative petition. Several sources are also reporting that Utah lawmakers
may retaliate against any public or tax-exempt entities for improperly
politicizing the gun issue with a ballot initiative drive with budget cuts
or other measures.
[ Continued In Next Message... ]




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Sep 99 07:15:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: GOUtah! Alert #30 - 13 September 1999 2/2

[ ...Continued From Previous Message ]
Salt Lake City Mayoral Candidates Nearly Unanimous in Support of Strident,
Abusive Gun Control Agenda as Primary Vote Approaches.

All of the leading candidates, and most of the rest of the pack now vying
for the Mayoral office in Salt Lake City spoke in favor of strident gun
control measures they would like to see implemented should they become the
next mayor of Utah's capitol city.

Current front runners in the pre-primary race include Democrats Dave Jones,
Rocky Anderson, Jim Bradley and Stuart Reid, who all apparently spoke in
favor of tighter gun control at a debate at the Hinkley Institute of
Politics at the University of Utah on 9 Sept. 1999.

In a story in the 10 Sept. 1999 issue of the Salt Lake Tribune, very few of
the candidates present at the debate own firearms, and none has a concealed
firearms permit. Anderson and Harmsen, a Republican, said a citizen
referendum was the only way to allow cities to pass their own set of
stricter gun laws. All were quoted as agreeing that private property
owners, churches and schools should be able to prohibit otherwise lawful
firearms possession on their property and that the mentally ill, convicted
criminals and juveniles should not have access to guns.

The only candidate in the SLC Mayor's race who has clearly spoken out in
favor of gun rights is Ken Larsen, a relatively unknown third party
offering who has run for a number of local and state elected offices in
recent years. Larsen unfortunately has limited name recognition and his
current polling numbers are in low single digits among potential Salt Lake
City voters.

GOUtah! to Debate Gun Rights on Campus at Hinkley Institute of Politics at
University of Utah on 23 Sept.

N. W. Clayton of GOUtah! will represent the pro-gun viewpoint in a debate
on Thursday, Sept. 23, beginning at 10:45 AM, in the Hinckley Institute of
Politics, 255 Orson Spencer Hall, (the classroom building just south of the
Olpin Student Union Building, near the center of campus) The subject will
be "Guns on Campus: Does RKBA Extend to the Classroom?" Another pro-gun
voice scheduled to appear is Mitch Vilos, a local attorney and author. The
opposition debaters are Doug Bates, an attorney with the Utah State
Department of Education, and Bill Nash, chair of Utahns Against Gun
Violence. There is no charge to attend and the event is open to the public.
Plan to get there a few minutes early, and bring all your friends and
family to help provide a strong pro-gun audience.

Salt Lake Tribune Article Blasts CCW Training in Utah

The Salt Lake Tribune devoted plenty of text to bashing CCW training in
Utah in their 12 September 1999 issue. The Tribune sent several reporters
to 7 CCW training courses supposedly selected at random, and them reported
on their findings. 5 of the 7 courses were rated as 'good or excellent,'
while 2 were rated as 'poor.' The 'poor' pair, in the Tribune's judgment,
allegedly did not provide the training needed to meet the state legal
requirements for CCW issuance, or followed the lesson plans the instructor
had submitted to DPS/BCI for CCW training course approval.

GOUtah! has always supported the current Utah CCW training requirements for
'demonstrated familiarity' with safe firearms operation and knowledge of
the laws regarding firearms and use of force by private citizens. GOUtah!
believes that Utah's CCW permit holders, as a group, are adequately trained
to be safe and responsible in public with their firearms, as has been
clearly demonstrated over the past several years.

However, GOUtah! also realizes, as should every Utah gun owner and CCW
permit holder, that the actions of a careless or indifferent few may create
problems for the responsible and safe many. We strongly encourage all CCW
permit holders to be VERY, VERY safe and comply fully with the laws
regarding carrying and using their firearms. GOUtah! recommends that all
Utah CCW instructors teach all of the legally required subject matter, in
each and every class, to each and every student, and to give full and
honest value for the student's training dollar.

GOUtah! also suggest that all of Utah's CCW trainers make an concerted
effort to come together as soon as possible, to help improve the quality
and availability of CCW training in Utah, without any attempt to place
further restrictions, roadblocks or requirements on Utah's CCW permit
applicants in the form of additional class time, costs or other training
requirements, or to use the legislative or regulatory process to 'build
kingdoms or monopolies for themselves' at the expense of Utah's gun owners
and CCW permit applicants. An earlier attempt to organize Utah's CCW
instructors several years ago collapsed when the effort devolved into a
'kingdom building exercise' by those involved.

If Utah's CCW instructors take some immediate affirmative steps to help
police themselves, outside oversight will not be required. If Utah's CCW
permit instructors do not aggressively address these issues, an external
solution may well be imposed on them, and then everyone gets the short end
of the stick.

GOUtah! believes that Utah's dedicated, responsible and capable CCW
instructors can use this opportunity today to build an effective and
powerful coalition organization which will be an asset both for themselves
and their students, and also a powerful voice in legislative, public policy
and mass media matters as they relate to issues of gun ownership and
self-defense.


GOUtah! Gun Rights (and Wrongs) QuoteWatch.

"We should get solidly in front of the (anti-gun) initiative effort. As the
State Board of Education, we are opposed to guns in schools.""

- -- John Watson, Chairman of the Utah State Board of Education, supporting
the anti-gun initiative petition of the UEA, PTA and others, from the Salt
Lake Tribune, 11 Sept. 1999.

"Are we or are we not the ultimate authority on public education in the
state of Utah? Why don't we vote to ban guns in schools?"

- -- Boyd F. Jensen, member of the State Board of Education, as quoted in the
Salt lake Tribune, 11 Sept. 1999.

"We're going to take every action short of cutting our own throats to get
this (the anti-gun petition) done.

- -- Grant Hurst, member of the State Board of Education, as quoted in the
Deseret News.

"This is an emotionally driven issue."

- -- Doug Bates, lawyer for the State Board of Education, as quoted in the
Salt lake Tribune, 11 Sept. 1999.

"Six years has been too long to wait for the truth."

- -- Rep. Henry Hyde, (R-Ill.) Chairman of the U.S. House Judiciary
Committee, regarding recent allegations of FBI lying and suppression of
evidence of incendiary devices being used in the Waco incident, as quoted
in the Salt Lake Tribune, 9 Sept. 1999.

"I'm beginning to think [Reno] should resign."

- -- Sen. Trent Lott, (R-Miss.) U.S. Senate Majority Leader, as quoted in the
Salt Lake Tribune, 9 September 1999. (Sen. Lott is also now beginning to
publicly refer to the Waco incident as the "Waco Bombing.")

If you have a gun rights quote you'd like to share, please send it, along
with a verifiable original source reference to GOUtah!

This concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #30 - 13
September 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in
defending your firearms rights. Remember that getting this information is
meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in
the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in
the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal!

Copyright 1999 by GOUtah! All rights reserved.




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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:32:19 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jews for Genocide

Please distribute this widely!

If you're Jewish, please let the American Jewish Congress know that they do
not speak for you, and that you don't appreciate their support for
disarming innocent Jews and others so they can be murdered.

If you're not Jewish, ask them why a Jewish organization would want to
promote genocide, and whether they realize that their un-American policies
are likely to increase anti-Semitism.

Write to: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
[e-mail], [e-mail].  A complete list of contacts is
available at the AJC website, www.ajcongress.org.

AJC needs to hear from a million people who OPPOSE gun control!

Thanks!

Sarah



http://www.ajcongress.org/ros_stop.htm


Remarks Delivered by American Jewish Congress President Jack Rosen at Press
Conference to Announce AJCongress Gun Control Petition Drive, September 14,
1999


- ----------

Good afternoon. I am Jack Rosen, President of the American Jewish Congress.

      We are here today to launch a grass roots initiative that is long
overdue. We are here today to address gun violence in our nation. We are
here today with proposals that will enhance, not restrict, freedom in our
society. We are here today with concrete proposals that can help slow down
a gun culture that is spiraling out of control and save lives. Most of all
we are here today to protect our children both from the threats that exist
today and those that could exist tomorrow if action is not taken.

      Of course, the American Jewish Congress has for many years been
active in the support of gun control legislation. We are proud of that stand.

      Recent events, however, have underscored just how urgent the
situation has become. The shootings this summer in Chicago in which
citizens of our country were killed for no other reason than their race and
religion were the first wake-up call. Then, the outrage in California at a
Jewish day care center occurred. These events have galvanized the Jewish
community. We are committed to leading a campaign to end this violence and
to asserting the rights that all Americans share. The right to live their
lives free of fear, to practice their religion openly and joyfully and to
raise their children in security and safety.

      And the movement we launch today transcends race and ethnic heritage.
Not just Jews, but blacks, Latinos, Asians and whites suffer under the
burden of gun violence. It is pervasive in every corner of our society.

      Less than 14 months ago, this very Capitol, the symbol of all we as
Americans hold most dear, was the scene of a senseless shooting that left
two Capitol Hill policemen dead. When Americans cannot feel safe here, in
the very cradle of their republic, the time for action has arrived.

      So today, AJCongress is proud to lead an effort to quantify the depth
of feeling that we know exists among our fellow citizens in support of
reasonable gun control laws. Here in Washington, and in New York, New
Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, Florida, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco,
we are issuing a call for action. We are joined by our friends in the
Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jewish movements who have joined together
to endorse this campaign. We intend to collect one million signatures on a
petition demanding that the U.S. Congress pass legislation requiring
licensing and registration of guns. The name of this campaign STOP THE
GUNS: PROTECT OUR KIDS! underscores its importance.

      It is time our public officials in Washington understand that
America's parents cannot tolerate what has happened in school after school
in state after state.

      Everyone agrees that there must never be another Columbine, another
North Hills Community Center. Yet what have we, collectively, as a nation
of parents, done to prevent the possibility? As a generation, we must stand
up to protect our children and succeeding generations from this scourge.

      We began this event with the blowing of the Shofar, which, throughout
Jewish history, has been a call to action. This ceremony marks the Jewish
High Holy Days, which began with the Jewish New Year last weekend. Next
week is Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the holiest and most sacred day
on the Jewish calendar. So this is a time of reflection for Jews. It is a
time to take stock, a time to identify shortcomings. And a time to take
corrective action and to begin solving problems.

      So let me suggest it is also an appropriate time for all of us as
Americans and parents to reflect upon what gun violence has wrought this
past year.

      As we close in on the year 2000, surely it is time to stop the
insanity that has brought automatic weapons into our day care centers and
schools.

      What message do we as a generation send if we do not speak out and
act now when our children are so clearly and frequently in danger?

      What we are proposing is simple, straightforward and reasonable. We
want laws that:

      One, require all gun buyers to pass a federal background check before
taking possession of any firearm from any gun dealer.

      Two, require all gun buyers to be licensed by an appropriate law
enforcement agency.

      Three, require all gun dealers to register firearms with appropriate
law enforcement agencies.

      And four, require gun makers to install safety devices that prevent
accidental or inadvertent firing.

      Let me end by urging all parents to seek this petition out and sign
it. Write your Congressmen and Senators, and tell them how important this
issue is to you. You can obtain a petition by calling AJCongress at (212)
879-4500 or on the Internet at www.ajcongress.org. Join us as we react to
the horrific events of the past year and work to prevent their
reoccurrence. Help us take the weapons out of the hands of the hate groups.
Work with us to foster a freer society for all our citizens. And most of
all, support our efforts to protect our children.

      We are very fortunate to have with us today a number of public
officials who are leaders on the issue of gun violence. We thank them for
their courage and conviction and are proud to stand with them today. They
will be instrumental in the success of our campaign for Congressional action.





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