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utah-firearms-digest       Tuesday, May 11 1999       Volume 02 : Number 134




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:35:31 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: If we don't do it, who will?

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:48:54 -0400
From: Robert the Rotten <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Vote in this poll
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Re Royce's comments on ABC:

In a sense, attacks on the NRA by the media are a compliment. But they
also lay a heavy burden on our shoulders, because they are essentially
correct in saying that the only thing blocking a flood of
unconstitutional gun-control legislation is the opposition of the NRA.

The public agrees with us and complains about its rights, but it DOESN'T
take the trouble to respond to polls and write to Congress, let alone
get involved in elections.

To steal a slogan from PBS: If we don't do it, who will?

Bob Strippy
6th VA

****Owning a firearm is a RIGHT, not a privilege****
    The NRA ILA EVC closed mailing list is NOT an=20
    official list of the NRA, but is offered as=20
a tool by Jim Kendall (WA-1st District EVC) and Telebyte NW.
   To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an email request to=20
             [e-mail]
    *********** Victory 1998! ***************


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 99 11:07:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Victim Disarmament

 * CARBON COPY:
 * Original was to [e-mail] (Shinaka Sykes)

Dear Shinika Sykes;

Thank you for returning my call and leaving a message on my
answering machine while I cancelled my subscription to The Salt
Lake Tribune with the Newspaper Agency Corporation on another
line.

I appreciate the fact that back in the sixties (before the
advent of the Newspaper Agency Corporation) The Salt Lake Tribune
treated its carriers far better and more fairly than did the
Deseret News, which took an oversupply for granted and expected
papers to be delivered by 5:30 pm, even when they were not delivered
to the station until 5:15, had to be stuffed, and then expected
delivery to nonsubscribers in the same number as they had paying
customers. This double-duty was imposed the first day of my service
as a substitute. I also delivered the Trib, whose dealings with
carriers in my experience was beyond reproach.

However, those are bygones. Asking us to be dog meat shows that
this integrity has entirely evaporated.

Obviously Marie Cocco's column and the attached cartoon on page
A9 of The Salt Lake Tribune on Monday May 3, 1999 is not the
first time I have read an editorial with which I disagree. However,
the Trib has long had a policy that only elitists and statist
flunkies should have access to guns. It has become increasingly
apparent that the aim is to leave others totally susceptible to
crime as well as governmentally-organized depredations and even
genocide. Your paper has hammered this stance unrelentingly since
the tragedy at Columbine HS in Littleton, Colorado, where by
tyrannical edicts all victims were left defenseless. In fact, on
Friday your paper, by printing Jack Germond and Jules Witcover's
scurrilous hit-piece, railed on Gov. Jesse Ventura for expressing
this fact. Sunday's paper had myriad anti-gun editorials and
articles, with only a lame counterpoint from Rep. Barr, who
advocates draconian enforcement of "laws" which, in my opinion,
ought not exist in the first place, in opposition. Where are the
editorials from L. Neil Smith, Vin Suprynowicz, or Neal Knox?

The cartoon attached to Ms. Cocco's column is exceedingly disingenuous.
Your only proposal is to "GET RID OF THE GUNS". The problem in these
school shootings is that the guns of those shot at and their supposed
protectors had already been gotten rid of. Should you repent of
your oppressive and murderous position please inform me so I may
reinstate my subscription to The Salt Lake Tribune.

Scott Bergeson
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:10:57 -0400
From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another poll - needs help.  Vote early & often (fwd) (fwd)

Looks like you can vote more than once

Chad

- ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999, 11:17 AM +0000
From: Bill Vance <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Another poll - needs help.  Vote early & often (fwd)

On May 4, C. D. Tavares wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows
- --------------------]

>I watched the numbers roll up in 10's on this one.  Appears 3 people
>from HCI are wearing out their mouses on it.
>
>http://www.bouldernews.com/cgi-bin/pollvault/pv_vote.cgi
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA
>----------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't get me there.  Try:

http://www.bouldernews.com/news/statewest/421shoot1.shtml

and vote from the "Reaction" column on the right-hand side.

We are really losing this one -- 12%-88% against CO CCW.
- --

[e-mail]      http://home.earthlink.net/~cdtavares

[------------------------- end of forwarded message
- ------------------------]

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------

- -


- ---------- End Forwarded Message ----------



Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC
Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting
Chad Leigh
[e-mail]            [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:17:40 -0400
From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clinton don't approve of Milosevic's methods (fwd) (fwd)

Some people want to know about this.  I am out of state now and so thought
I'd pass this one.

Chad

- ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999, 11:18 AM +0000
From: Bill Vance <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Clinton don't approve of Milosevic's methods (fwd)

Do you know anyone down in Salt Lake City?  We can't afford to let this sort
of thing happen unremarked, anywhere, but we can't just jump salty over
nothing either.


On May 4, [e-mail] wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows
- --------------------]

Subj:  Fwd: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons
Date: 5/3/99 11:31:04 PM EST
From: [e-mail] (Devon Joshua., Millwood is Kidnaped by N.J. Div. of
Youth & Family Services; Held Hostage by Darlene Stewart. 201- 868-6237)

>From: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:06:54 EDT
>Subject: Fwd: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons
>To: [e-mail]
>
>
>Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
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>From: "Solutions International" <[e-mail]>
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>Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:46:41 +0000
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>Subject: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.41)
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>A few days ago, I receive this rather disturbing e-mail forwarded
>from a friend.  It sounded so outlandish that I didn't feel
>comfortable forwarding it at that point.  However, I have now
>confirmed this information is indeed true and is something to which
>we should all pay close attention.  This is an example of how
>pseudo-Martial Law was implemented for all the wrong reasons in the
>wrong place at the wrong time.  Will we stand by and let more of this
>abuse happen in other parts of the country?
>
>Please read and take whatever action you deem appropriate.
>
>Peace and Prosperity,
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date:          Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:57:07 -0700 (PDT)
>From:          "L.D. Parable" <[e-mail]>
>To:            Jeffrey Howard <[e-mail]>
>
>Jeff,
>
>Please pass this along to your group:
>
>Date: 29 Apr 1999 18:44:46 GMT>Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberties
>>To: [e-mail]>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>>References: <01be914a$38d45700$e83384ce@kfvtjuml>>From:
>[e-mail] (ItsMoi)
>>Subject: MARSHALL LAW PROVEN IN UTAH SOS
>>X-UIDL: 52ec387f2720c939c6c3935b4b99a4c9>
>> My name is Claudia K. White. I am a 35 yo female, with a
>Bachelorsdegree of
>>science. I live in SLC, Utah.  One week ago sunday  Cheif of
>policeOrtega,
>>sent a swat teamm into Liberty park.  The religious and the rest ofthe
>>community go to the park every sunday.  Which consists of
>mostlyfamilies,
>>Vetrans, indians, young teens and small children. ( This is our
>1stamendment
>>right).>  The Swat team proceed to sweep the park as if it was Penn
>State or
>Ten..>Square.  The Swat team was fully armed in riot gear and weapons.
>People where>bulgened with billy clubs. Ticketed and force out of the
>park.
>>   I personall y was attacked hit 6 times and was hit by a billy
>clubwhich
>>factured my fibula on my left leg.  My library book " The
>USConstitution and
>>Case Summaries"  was torn from my hands and ripped apart.
>>  We where marched out of the park by the Swat team.  At no time
>didwe resist
>>arrest orshow any violence towards the officers.
>>  We left the boundaries of the park as ordered to do.  At which
>timewe got
>>permission from the property owner ( approx 1300 so. & 600 East)
>tostay on his
>>property.  He too goes to the drum circle.
>>   At this time cheif of Police Ortega arrived at the scene.
>Ipersonally
>>tried to reason with him to no avail.  Police Cheif Ortega would
>noteven speak
>>with us,  me or anyother Adult at the scene; for by this time
>thecrowd had
>>dispersed and only a handful of mostly under age kids where present.
>>  Cheif Ortega  ordered his troops to began a military type attack
>onthe crowd
>>of teens and the few adults left.  The officers, approximately 20
>withfull
>>riot gear, had fully loaded semi automatic weapons pointed
>executionstyle at
>>our backs as they marched us off the private property and up the
>cityowned
>>street,( 4 city blocks) protecting themselves with bullet
>proofsheilds.  The
>>Swat team forced us across the street to another park and left
>thescene.
>>   At no time did the Police return and tell any of us we could
>reenter the
>>park to gather our belongings, our vehicles, or did they tend to
>theinjured.
>> . 16 citations were issued for alcohol and small amounts of
>maujuana.None for
>>weapons.  The city as of this time has not taken any action
>agianstOrtega the
>>officers or Mayor Deedee Corridini, Nor offered any type of
>publicapology.
>>   The Mayor, Cheif of police and the Governer hold equal liability
>inthis
>>incidence.  For the evening before was Earthday at the Liberty Park.
>>  At the Earth Jam festival Mayor Deedee Corridini sent
>arepresentative to
>>speak on her and the IOC plans of building a apatheater in the park.
>This
>>would entail digging up a old burial ground and A historic home
>ofIsaac Chase
>>and Brigham Young, built in the early 1800's.
>>  I personally have contacted the ACLU and NPR radio.  The News mediais
>>rufusing to run this as a National emergency.
>>  The Attorney General of Utah< Jan Graham, has no Civil authority
>inthe State
>>of Utah. As Governer Mike Leavitt and the house of represntatives
>ofUtah voted
>>and stripped her of these rights.
>>  This proves the well known theory that the United States of
>Americais no
>>longer and hasn't been for quite sometime, governed by
>theConstitution of the
>>United States of America, nor Virginia Bill of Rights. Otherwise
>putthe United
>>States at least for the early 60's has been under Marshall Law.
>APolice
>>state, as was Vietnam.
>>   I believe I speak for all Americans when isay we are not
>AntiPolice,  We
>>are  Anti Police State.  We are willing to give to Ceasar what
>isCeasar's.
>>But after that the federal government is requied to acts
>asMagistrates, just
>>and the Bill of rights directs them to do " Serve the People".....
>Inother
>>worlds they are to be Noble and act as our waiters, (ie. servants,civil
>>servants).>  Please contact your Local and federal government on this
>matter.
>And please>contact the Media.  As I have tried with no avail in Salt
>Lake City
>Utah.  Be>reassured I have contacted everyone in my State and the ACLU.
>>   We all must speak out on this matter or the proverbial they
>willcontinue
>>running, destroying, and robbing us of  our " inalienable,
>infeasible"rights
>>of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".
>>  I would also like to note on behalf of Utah State that Senator
>OrinHatch,
>>Mayor Deedee Corridini, and Cheif of Police Ortega, are not even
>fromthe State
>>of Utah. The aforementioned, Governer Mike Leavitt, President
>Clintonand VP Al
>>Gore. are refusing to face this as a matter of Nation Importance
>andState of
>>Emergency.  This I hold to be of gross Maladministeration
>
>SOLUTIONS INTERNATIONAL
>Maximizing Personal Potential
>http://www.1999.com/solutions
>
>"No man is free until he learns to do his own thinking
>and gains the courage to act on his own personal initiative."
>- Napoleon Hill
>
A PUBLIC DEFENDER IS A "JUDAS GOAT"
FIND AND POST THE LINCOLN PRIVATE PAPERS
  NON-CONSTITUTIONAL, AND UN-CONSTITUTIONAL ARE NOT THE SAME THING
  To receive posts from this list send an E-MAIL to me with the word
"subscribe" in the subject box.
  To be removed from this list send a post to me with the word "unsubscribe"
  in the subject box.

[------------------------- end of forwarded message
- ------------------------]

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------

- -


- ---------- End Forwarded Message ----------



Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC
Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting
Chad Leigh
[e-mail]            [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:25:14 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Off topic but opportunity for community service

The American Red Cross relies pretty heavily upon blood draws at various
college campuses to meet their blood needs.  With BYU, UofU, and USU now
either out, or close to being out, on summer break it is becomming
difficult for the Red Cross to meet their blood needs.

So, if you are healthy,  and have not donated in the last 8 weeks, please
consider stopping in at their donation center and donating blood.  They
are located on 900 East 6616 South (just north of I-215) and are open for
walk in donations Monday and Friday 7am - Noon and Wednesday 2pm - 7pm.
No apt needed.

They will ask for, but do not require, a social security number.  I
always decline to give my SS number out and they have no problem with
that and happily take my blood.

They do require some form of picture ID--and are fairly used to seeing
CCW permits used for that purpose.  :)

Also, my wife tells me that when they draw blood from police officers who
are armed, they will require the officer to unload and/or place his
holstered sidearm under the cot or otherwise out of reach.  Apparantly,
on the very rare occassion that a police officer blacks out while giving
blood, they have a habit of immediatly reaching for their sidearm as they
come to and before they are fully cognizant.  Obviously, if you CCW
properly, they won't know if you are armed.  However, I would think
proper safety would dictate that if you are not VERY sure will not black
out and subsequently reach for your gun while giving blood, you should
make sure it is far enough beyond your reach while donating that you are
sure to be fully cognizant before being able to get to it.

charles.
==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:43:04 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: DesNews poll needs your vote

This week's Deseret News Poll at <http:www.desnews.com> (middle right
hand side of page) asks,

"Question: Do you think Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt should convene a special
session of the Legislature in response to recent incidents of
    gun violence, providing a forum for lawmakers to deal with
weapons-related issues?"

Current results are encouraging:

Yes


                               141 votes (33%)
              No



                               279 votes (65%)
              Other / Unsure


                               11 votes (3%)

Let's make sure they are overwhelming!

==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:52:47 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Letter to Editors needed

This editorial from today's DesNews is too good to pass up.  Every paper
in the State needs to receive multiple letters to the editor and full
length opinion pieces pointing out the fact that Vermont is the only
State in the Union to fully respect the people's right to an effective
armed defense.  They have LESS gun control than any other State in the
Union.  No permits needed to carry a weapon.  No gun free zones, not even
the State Capital.  Please, write a letter.

Best kinds of acts to copycat

              Deseret News editorial

                    By last count, Vermont was the only state in the
union in which a teenager had neither attempted nor threatened to attempt
a massacre similar to the one two weeks ago
              at Columbine High in Littleton, Colo. Utah is no exception.
                    Officials at Salt Lake, Granite and Jordan school
districts have fielded bomb threats almost daily. Students at Central
Davis Junior High turned in a suspicious classmate.
              Police then found gunpowder and pipes at his house, and a
pipe bomb at another house.
                    Perhaps most frightening of all, police in Duchesne
County arrested two teenage boys who had begun wearing the black trench
coats of the Columbine killers and had
              threatened to blow up the school prom. They found live
ammunition and spent shells in the boys' lockers, but no bombs. Both boys
said they were only joking.
                    Evil acts do indeed influence others. For some
reason, despite the horrors of such a crime, some people want to at least
threaten to duplicate it. However, we suspect the
              opposite also is true. Acts of goodness, of heroism, of
nobility, courage and bravery, also influence others.
                    News, by its nature, is represented by abnormal or
unusual behavior. That's why the negative after-effects of Columbine
receive so much attention. But a little perspective
              is in order. Americans may think their nation is unraveling
like a frayed cloth. That's not true. Columbine High provided ample
evidence that society is filled with goodness,
              and that it is particularly evident among the rising
generation.
                    First, consider Cassie Bernall. She was the one
willing to die for her faith when the gunmen asked her if she believed in
God. As Time Magazine noted, she surely must
              have known what the safe answer was. Instead, she faced her
tormentors and said, "There is a God, and you need to follow along God's
path." For this, she was killed.
                    Consider other acts that day. One young man lay atop
his sister and a friend, sacrificing his own body to shield theirs.
Another boy overcame the pain of bullet wounds in
              his own leg and managed to move an explosive away from
others.
                    These were reflex actions. None of these young people
spent the day analyzing how they would react under such circumstances.
They acted spontaneously based on their
              own core values and morals.
                    What bravery! What courage! What nobility! And, yes,
what wonderful examples to follow.
                    Acts of goodness don't often qualify as news. They
don't as much attention as the less frequent acts of evil. Yet they
abound everywhere, and when they are exhibited as
              grandly as they were under the terrible circumstances at
Columbine, they ought to find their way into the hearts of all. They
ought to inspire copycats everywhere.


==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:53:32 -0600
From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: LTE needs reponse

've already got a LTE in the queue, so will somebody PLEASE respond to
this moron.  Maybe pulling Hitler's quote about joining the military if
you want to shoot would be good one.  The recent court decision out of
texas clearly articulating the history and context of the 2nd amnd and
the resulting decision that it does protect an individual right might not
be bad either.

From today's desnews LTE.


Read the U.S. Constitution

                    In the aftermath of all of the shootings here in Salt
Lake City and in Colorado, I was hoping that some of our leaders would
come to their senses. If one of them
              would go back to really read the Constitution along with a
history lesson in the atrocities that the British Empire was perpetrating
against the Colonies. These are
              the reasons for the Bill of Rights and securing the safety
of each state in the Union. Our own U.S. history is the part that we have
all forgotten.
                    The Second Amendment was written to guarantee each
new state the right to form a state militia, not to facilitate the
individual ownership of guns as the "Right
              to die by my own hand" (spelled NRA) groups would have you
believe.
                    The Second Amendment was written because the British
attempted to confiscate all weapons for their own army. Last time I
checked, we have been free from
              enemies on our sovereign soil since the War of 1812.
                    I do agree that we have too many laws and not enough
prosecution. I have a simple but effective remedy: two laws replacing
everything already on the books.
                    1. No handguns and no military assault rifles or
rapid fire weapons authorized within the boundaries of the United States.
Possession or use of one of these
              weapons will result in automatic imprisonment for 20 years.
                    2. Hunting rifles are allowed and a required license
process for proof of appropriate training and eligibility to own one. No
convicted felons are allowed to own a
              hunting rifle.
                    If someone has a burning desire to use a handgun or
an assault rifle might I recommend joining local Army National Guard or
Army Reserve units ù we could
              use more recruits. This is the only intent of the Second
Amendment, not the proliferation of murder devices.
                    I lived in Europe for over nine years serving in the
armed forces, and I never felt ill at ease as I do in the United States
when traveling at night. Weapons were
              strictly controlled, even with difficult-to-maintain
borders. Our society has deteriorated down to a bunch of out of control
gunslingers and common sense be
              damned.
                    I am still waiting for a literate leader to come
forth and provide some sense to a gut shot public.

              Curtis A. Wood
              West Jordan

==================================================================
Charles C. Hardy
<[e-mail]>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:31:58 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: "What goes around, comes around"

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From: "Charles Hoskinson" <[e-mail]>
To: "USMA Forum" <[e-mail]>
Subject: "What goes around, comes around"
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:26:55 -0400
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I read in a Rocky Mountain Post article this morning that the mother of =
the geezer who provided the TEC-9 to the Columbine shooters was an avid =
member of Handgun Control, Inc.
When asked about the incident, she said (OWTTE), "I can't understand it. =
He was never around guns at home".

As the Eddie Eagle award-winning gun safety program promotes, (Extract)

    "Talk to your child about guns. Discuss their uses and history. By =
removing the mystery surrounding guns, your child will be far less curious =
about guns, and more likely to follow safety rules.

    Make sure your child understands the difference between a toy gun and =
a real gun, and the difference between "pretend" and real life. Explain to =
your young children that guns on television are not real, and are shown =
being used incorrectly.

    If you allow your child to play with toy guns, use them to teach safe =
gun handling" (I believe we know what the basic rules are: safe pointing, =
trigger-finger off until ready, keep unloaded until ready for use).

Probably wishes now she had met "Eddie Eagle".


Chuck Hoskinson
"US Army, Retired
... and still serving proudly"


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<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I read in a Rocky Mountain Post article this morning that the
mother of the geezer who provided the TEC-9 to the Columbine shooters was an
avid member of Handgun Control, Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When asked about the incident, she said (OWTTE), "I can't
understand it. He was never around guns at home".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As the Eddie Eagle award-winning gun safety program promotes,
(Extract)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>    "Talk to your child about guns. Discuss
their uses and history. By removing the mystery surrounding guns, your child
will be far less curious about guns, and more likely to follow safety
rules.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>    Make sure your child understands the
difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and the difference between
"pretend" and real life. Explain to your young children that guns on television
are not real, and are shown being used incorrectly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>    If you allow your child to play
with toy guns, use them to teach safe gun handling" (I believe we know what
the basic rules are: safe pointing, trigger-finger off until ready, keep
unloaded until ready for use).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Probably wishes now she had met "Eddie Eagle".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Chuck Hoskinson<BR>"US Army, Retired<BR>... and still serving
proudly"</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 May 99 14:55:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Re: Columbine Propaganda

- ---------- Forwarded excerpt ----------
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:12:56 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: GOLD:LONDON DUMPS 415 tonnes of GOLD

COMMUNIQUE #2129
- -----------------

Janet "RHINO" Reno has come out with her own PROPAGANDA in the wake
of the COLUMBINE MASSACRE, she has teamed up with MTV and DOJ will be
distributing PROPAGANDA PACKAGES to schools throughout Amerika, get
yours, or one for a friend via a pay-phone toll free 1-877-284-1188.

TO RECEIVE email from ralph: send email to [e-mail] and in
the Subject make sure your email address and the word GO-RALPH (no spaces)
is in the subject.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:30:17 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: SWAT Team Misfire? by James Bovard

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From: Matthew Gaylor <[e-mail]>
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Subject: SWAT Team Misfire? by James Bovard
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:29:49 -0400
To: [e-mail]
From: Jim Bovard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Littleton's Lesson: Don't Count on Police


Washington Times, May 11, 1999
Commentary Section  p. 17


                      SWAT Team Misfire?

                         by James Bovard

     Federal and Colorado  officials are seeking to transform the
April 20 disaster at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado
into a law enforcement triumph. Attorney General Janet Reno praised
the local police response as "extraordinary" - "a textbook" example
of "how to do it the right way." President Clinton declared
Saturday that "we look with admiration at the... the police
officers who rushed to the scene to save lives."

      However, the excruciatingly slow response by SWAT teams and
other lawmen to the killings in progress turned a multiple homicide
into a historic massacre. The pathetic excuses being offered
vivify how law enforcement has no legal liability to people they
fail to protect.  The Colorado killings offer stark evidence why
citizens cannot rely on government for their personal safety.

     "Close enough for government work" is the motto for the
defenders of the law enforcement response.  Jefferson County deputy
Neil Gardner, the first policeman to shoot and miss at the killers,
said on NBC's Dateline: "I think with exchanging fire, it did allow
some--some people that are--that were fleeing the scene to get out
of the building. I always will have to live with the fact that,
maybe if I could have dropped him, maybe it would have saved one or
two more lives." However, at the time of this gunfire exchange, the
teens had apparently only killed two people.  If Gardner had hit
one of the teens, it might have unnerved his co-killer and led to
a surrender - or an earlier suicide - and thus saved as many as 11
lives.  Two other policemen arrived on the scene, fired at one of
the killers - and missed.

     Jefferson County Sheriff John Stone later explained: "We had
initial people there right away, but we couldn't get in. We were
way  outgunned." This wasn't Beider-Meinhoff: this wasn't Abu
Nidal's terrorist cliche: this was two relatively inexperienced
teens with a few cheap firearms.  If policemen on the scene
actually felt outgunned, they could have quickly retrieved
automatic weapons or other heavy-duty firearms from patrol cars.

     Many local SWAT teams descended on the high school parking lot
and vicinity after the shooting started. But none of the SWAT teams
confronted the killers.  Police spokesmen said the SWATs were not
sent in "for fear that they might set off a new gunfight," as the
New York Times reported.  At least there was no danger of a
"gunfight" when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were executing
unarmed students.

     Sheriff Stone justified the non-response: "We didn't want to
have one SWAT team shooting another SWAT team." It seemingly never
occurred to police not to send in all the SWAT teams.  Apparently,
the more police who respond to a crisis, the more incapable any
policeman becomes of doing anything to stop the killings.

     The police response also seemed paralyzed by concerns for
"officer safety."  Steve Davis,  spokesman for the Jefferson County
Sheriff's Department, said, "We had no idea who was a victim and
who was a suspect. And a dead police officer would not be able to
help anyone."  But the "suspects" were brazenly walking around
with sawed off shotguns and firing at will and were identified in
the first few minutes as wearing trenchcoats.

      Donn Kraemer of the Lakewood SWAT team explained:  "If we
went in and tried to take them and got shot, we would be part of
the  problem. We're supposed to bring   order to chaos, not add to
the chaos." Some police seem to see their role as historians -
entering the building after the crime spree is over and carefully
noting where each dead body lay. Is it necessary to have SWAT teams
with the most advanced equipment and machine guns in order to
distribute body bags after the carnage is over?

     Law enforcement spokesmen are now bragging that they
successfully contained the two teens in the school after the
killing rampage started.  Sheriff Stone proclaimed last Saturday
that "early intervention" by the cops who shot at the killers and
missed "saved one heck of a lot of kids' lives, by pinning these
guys down [Harris and Klebold spent most of their time in the
library, where they killed 10 people], by putting them on the
defensive, instead of the offensive [except for the 13 murder
victims], and subsequently probably led to their suicide."  Yet,
one of the youths left a suicide note before the carnage began.

     SWAT teams may have become an impediment to public safety.
There were probably plenty of individual policemen with the courage
to enter the building and go after the shooters while the killings
continued. But the militarization of law enforcement seems to have
also resulted in police becoming bureaucratized - if not
Dilbertized.

     President Clinton, Attorney General Reno, and others are
claiming that the Colorado tragedy proves the need for stricter gun
control. The Washington Post used the tragedy to call for the
confiscation of all handguns.  But the more successful gun control
is in disarming citizens, the more dependent people become on
government officials for  protection - protection that is often
slow and unreliable.

     When government ineptitude results in unnecessary killings -
well, the survivors can write a letter to their congressman or
state legislator. A federal appeals court declared in 1982, "There
is  no constitutional right to be protected by the state against
being murdered by criminals or madmen."  Citizens have no
effective, enforceable right to police protection - and both police
and criminals know this.

     Is there anyone who has closely followed this tragedy who
would trust the lives of their children to the Colorado SWAT teams?
The police can be trusted to protect themselves. But what about the
rest of us?

TAGLINE: Bovard is the author of Freedom in Chains: The Rise of the
State & the Demise of the Citizen (St. Martin's Press, 1999).

[to see first chapter of Freedom in Chains: http://www.jamesbovard.com ]

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End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #134
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