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utah-firearms-digest     Thursday, March 25 1999     Volume 02 : Number 132




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 20:47:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: NRA'99: What Happened to the 1998 Member Initiated Bylaw Amendments?

Forwarded by: [e-mail] (schuetzen) and Gary Westfall
<[e-mail]>

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:48:12 -0500,
"Dean Speir" <[e-mail]> wrote:

As the 1999 NRA Board of Directors campaign winds down, there is one
issue which has yet to be addressed by NRA or any of the current Board,
and that is what happened to the seven members-initiated NRA Bylaw
Amendments which were to have been discussed and voted on at the last
membership meeting in Philadelphia.

Instead, Director Oliver North, seemingly stooging for "The Winning
Team" triumvirate of out-going President Marion Hammer, Executive V.P.
Wayne LaPierre and the Charlton Heston/Angus McQueen (Mercury Group)
entry, stepped to an open microphone and moved that the meeting be
closed. This was quickly followed by a second from former NRA President,
Joe Foss, an NRA icon, and Ms. Hammer was quick to gavel the proceedings
to an early close. Some of the movers of the ByLaw amendments like Joe
Tartaro, one of the architects of the celebrated "Cincinnati Reforms"
of 1977, were left at dead microphones.

Those initiatives, five of which were actually on the ballot, were
"referred to the Board for consideration" by outgoing President Hammer.

The problem is, that under the laws of incorporation of the State of
New York (where NRA is chartered), the Bylaws can ONLY BE AMENDED BY
THE MEMBERSHIP, and not by the Board of Directors.

There are other considerations at work as well, but that action
alone and the "circular-filing" of legally presented amendments in
contravention of NRA's own bylaws, are reason enough to suggest that
something unwholesome is at work within NRA, something which does not
trust its general membership to respond to anything which has not been
spoon-fed to them by The Winning Team.

This isn't a "dissident faction" (read "Knoxite") versus "The Winning
Team" deal... Neal Knox and his merrie band of hard corps Second
Amendment faithful had their shot and, for whatever reasons, blew it.
They let NRA staff and at least one of NRA's vendors run rough-shod
over the organization and ultimately lost control of matters.

It's really about how the general membership is going to make
themselves heard and their wishes known to the leadership of NRA,
a leadership (and staff) which is running the Board of Directors
rather than the other way around. A leadership (and staff) which
is (and there's no other word for it) profligate with the money
the membership is continually sending them in response to a steady
barrage of insultingly witless fund solicitations disguised as "polls"
and "membership surveys," and cries for "emergency financial help"
wrapped in certified mailings!

Look closely sometime at where that membership money is going!
And not just the little stuff such as those dreadful solicitations
and appeals, but some of the little known "big ticket items." Ask
yourself why the NRA needs to expend enormous sums to prop up
personality-oriented organizations such as Marion Hammer's USF,
or Roy Innis' CORE, or LeRoy Pyle's LEAA.

But you can't ask this of The Winning Team leadership, because your
microphone will be cut off and others will be informed that you are
a "malcontent" or a "rabble-rouser."

And you can't ask this of the bulk of the current Board of Directors,
since they either don't know, or they are too frightened for their
continued political existence to answer honestly and openly. Those who
don't absolutely toe The Winning Team line are not only not supported
for re-election, they are actively campaigned against and listed in the
"Do Not Vote For" column.

Study that list of 14 names closely... sure, Sally Drews Brodbeck
was one of the Knox faithful whose husband got into an ugly physical
confrontation with one of Marion Hammer's "security guards" in
Philadelphia last June, and Howard Fezell was the prime mover in the
successful lawsuit a year ago which forced The Winning Team to obey its
own bylaws... they are both naturals for the "Do Not Vote For" list.

But what about people such as Bob Hodgdon and Glen Voorhees? What does
one suppose that their transgressions were which landed them on The
Winning Team's "enemies list." (And make no mistake, that extraordinary
Do Not Vote For column is an "enemies list" in the disgraceful tradition
of the Nixon administration's darker side.)

The Fitzgerald v. NRA decision (available upon request) of 1974 was
very clear that NRA cannot use "corporate instrumentalities" (read:
"The American Rifleman" at the time, now also "The American Hunter"
and "The American Guardian") to influence corporate elections:

  "The principles enunciated above make it clear that officers and
   directors cannot utilize corporate instrumentalities such as
   The American Rifleman to perpetuate themselves in office."
   [383 F.Supp. 162, United States District Court, D. New Jersey;
   Thomas FITZGERALD, a New Jersey Citizen, et al., Plaintiffs, v.
   The NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA, a New York corporation,
   Defendant. Civ. A. No. 772-73.]

This is very much at the root of the sole Bylaw Amendment on this
year's ballot... those who control the NRA publications control how the
membership which bothers to vote, votes. The rest of the time leadership
and staff are content to treat the membership like mushrooms: kept in
the dark and fed the occasional shovelful of horse manure... except for
the regularly scheduled pleas for money.

Passage of this year's Bylaw Amendment will make it even harder for
anyone who has not curried favor with leadership and staff to make a
meaningful run for the Board of Directors. And without strong, independent
voices on the already over-sized BoD, we will continue to see an NRA
which is out of the control of its members, and wholly in the grasp of
self-interested leadership, staff and vendors on the NRA's teat.

There should be one and only one agenda of the NRA, and that is
preserving our Second Amendment rights and firearms heritage. And I
don't see as how the Brady Law, the Assault Weapons portion of the
Crime Bill, the Lautenberg Amendment or regional atrocities such as
Prop. 17 in Pennsylvania (never mind the Utah/Olympic fiasco) can be
anything but antithetical to those objectives.

But that's what our recently constituted NRA has brought us. It's about
"power"... damn the original objective... "we can deal with the gun rights
stuff later, let's just stay on top in the NRA, and if we have to dirty
up some soon-to-be-former friends and colleagues," [shrug] "ecccch."

Well, that's not the NRA to which I signed on for Life.

Please, study the bios and ballots carefully, and if there's things
which seem strange to you, ask some tough questions about them,
especially if you have access to any of those who are running for the
BoD this year! Don't be content with the horse manure spoon-fed you by
The Winning Team in the publications, fund solicitations and NRA-ILA
fax alerts.

The completed NRA 1999 Ballots must be received by 11 April in order
to have them counted. Time is running out.

- - Dean Speir, Life NRA
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It's not a perfect world out there... it's why we _have_ guns!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail] (Gary Westfall)
AirPower Information Services  The Pro-freedom Online Service, since 1989!
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 20:47:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Okay, let's put a stop to this! 1/2

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:48:52 -0500
From: [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Okay, let's put a stop to this!

"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win
without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be
sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have
to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance
for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when
there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than
to live as slaves." -- Winston Churchill.
http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/politics/quotes/freedom.html

RKBA Defenders,

It is one thing for the relatively few American citizens who subscribe
to the RKBA Listserv to share this information amongst ourselves. It is
another to convey this information back to Congress and let them know
that we seek action on this matter.

The rule of the squeaky wheel holds true in politics and this is no
time for us to remain silent. Please contact your Congresscritters.

I've written a letter which you may wish to cut and paste to the GOA
mass- mailer for U.S. Congress. Also, you can select all Senators
and/or Representatives by doing a right-button click, holding it down
and scrolling down the address list.
http://www.gunowners.org/mailerx.html

We must put a stop to this now, rather than face the consequences later.

In Liberty,

Rick V.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Senator,

I am very, very alarmed by reports coming in from Texas, Massachusetts,
Maryland, Ohio, California and from many other states.

The U.S. military (the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment
Airborne, Combat Applications Group, CAG, or "Night Stalkers" --
commonly referred to as "Delta Force") is conducting night-time
practice assaults on civilian areas using night vision devices,
unmarked helicopters and, in at least some instances, live ammunition.

There was and is no need to conduct operations anywhere close to
civilian-occupied areas -- unless the purpose is to get civilians
used to night-time raids, or worse yet, to prepare for these troops
for actual operations AGAINST CIVILIANS.

This is highly alarming and extremely dangerous. The potential for
military mishaps, such as the helicopter crash that ended the failed
Iranian Hostage rescue attempt at "Desert One," or stray live rounds
hitting civilians is tremendous. As great as this risk is, it is not
the most dangerous aspect.

What possible objective can these raids have other than to be setting
the stage for the implementation of Clinton's Executive Orders, which
the House and Senate have failed to stop?

You MUST initiate an investigation into the matter and put a stop to
this! The American armed services are meant to protect and serve the
U.S. Constitution and the citizens of the United States. This series
of raids works directly against both missions.

These raids, coupled with their likely purpose and the unconstitutional,
unilateral and secret attempt by Clinton to absolve these specialized
troops under Presidential Decision Directive 25, sets the stage for a
military seizure of power.

He is purporting to grant authority he himself cannot give. Every
elected official, soldier and law enforcement officer has sworn an
oath to "uphold and defend the Constitution against enemies foreign
and domestic." By attempting to release elite fighting units from
the constraints of the Constitution, Clinton is violating his Oath,
attacking the Constitution he has sworn to uphold, and threatens to
unleash brutal, unchecked, deadly force against American civilians.

According to the sources cited below, the 160th Group has been granted
authority to do just about anything with total immunity from the law,
including the Posse Comitatus Act. "They will follow and do whatever the
president tells them to do. In that regard, they are somewhat
dangerous," stated one source.

I urge you to put a stop to these operations; to repeal PDD 25 and all
other similar assaults on our Constitution.

Ours is a nation of laws. The President cannot be allowed to write laws
unilaterally, or in secret, or those which purport to absolve his
hand-picked henchmen of legal liability. PDD 25 is the worst of all
worlds rolled into one. You must put a stop to this NOW.

Respectfully submitted,

Richard E. Vaughan, Esq.


Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:42:03 -0500
From: Joe Sylvester <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Okay, let's put a stop to this!

At 10:48 AM 3/22/99 -0500, [e-mail], wrote:

>The U.S. military (the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment
>Airborne, Combat Applications Group, CAG, or "Night Stalkers" --
>commonly referred to as "Delta Force") is conducting night-time practice
>assaults on civilian areas using night vision devices, unmarked
>helicopters and, in at least some instances, live ammunition.

The 160 Special Operations Aviation Regiment/Night Stalkers and Delta Force
are *not* the same unit, as you seem to indicate. The 160th is based at Ft.
Campbell while Delta is based at Ft. Bragg. The 160th are the taxi drivers
for Delta and other units, as well as their "eyes in the sky".

>He is purporting to grant authority he himself cannot give. Every
>elected official, soldier and law enforcement officer has sworn an oath
>to "uphold and defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and
>domestic." By attempting to release elite fighting units from the

That should be "against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

>constraints of the Constitution, Clinton is violating his Oath,
>attacking the Constitution he has sworn to uphold, and threatens to
>unleash brutal, unchecked, deadly force against American civilians.

If you want to turn off your CongressCritter, one sure way is not to have
all your facts straight, especially those that are easily verified (in the
articles you referance in fact)

The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution.
- ---Doug McKay" <mckay003_AT_maroon.tc.umn.edu>

Joe Sylvester
Don't Tread On Me !

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail] (Joe Sylvester)
AirPower Information Services  The Pro-freedom Online Service, since 1989!
BBS:610-259-2193 Telnet://airpower.dynip.com  ftp://ftp.airpower.dynip.com
http://www.airpower.com http://www.airpower.dynip.com
This message was processed by AirPower's NetXpress Server.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:45:34 -0500
From: [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Okay, let's put a stop to this!

Joe Sylvester wrote:

>The 160 Special Operations Aviation Regiment/Night Stalkers and Delta
>Force are *not* the same unit, as you seem to indicate. The 160th is
>based at Ft. Campbell while Delta is based at Ft. Bragg. The 160th are
>the taxi drivers for Delta and other units, as well as their "eyes in
>the sky".
[ Continued In Next Message... ]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 20:47:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Okay, let's put a stop to this! 2/2

[ ...Continued From Previous Message ]
Jurist responds:

Okay...
...you might want to take a look at all the URLs I posted at the bottom
of the message. The articles cited to in the URLs go into greater depth
in unit identification -- that's why they are included. There certainly
is a distinction between the various units, be they Delta, Special
Forces, Rangers, et cetera.

Point of fact, the Night Stalkers have been identified by the sources,
once again, --- in the URLs -- as being involved with the night-time NVG
raids, but Marine and Navy units have also been involved in night urban
assaults as well (Laser Cup, Last Dance, what have you).

Many units are involved, some of which have yet to be identified, due to
OPSEC and lack of unit markings on the aircraft. For example:

"H Howard Lewis Bloom" <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] wrote:

>"I'm a pilot. I flew out to Lancaster (LNS) a few months back to practice
>some in pattern emergencies and had to taxi around "Crystal 17". Crystal
>17 was what they called themselves and what the tower called them. There
>were no markings on this black helicopter, no markings at all. I have no
>idea who they were, or what they were doing, as there was absolutely no
>way to identify them save for their own identification of "Crystal 17"."

Reports have come in concerning even National Guard units. They range
from plans to activate all units and have them standing by for New
Year's Eve 2000, to withdrawal of ammunition from NG units, to
stockpiling of MRE's. Indeed, last year many Eastern European units
were reported as undergoing joint operations with Marines in my old
stomping grounds of Camp Lejeune, NC.

Splitting hairs over First Battalion or Second Regiment ignores the fact
that those at the highest levels of government show every indicator of
turning America's finest against Americans. This is a perversion of the
American system and is nothing less than treason.

As a former Marine, it makes me seethe to think that I may be forced to
choose between violating my own oath to uphold and defend the Constitution
(which is still in effect from the time I took it!) to giving up my Arms,
giving up my Freedom, giving up on America, or firing on my Brothers in
Arms. This is despicable and tragic. I want to head this off by all
possible peaceful means -- hence the need for us to take political and
legal action NOW.

As far as pissing off Senators or Representatives, you must be operating
with a different Congressional animal from the kind I have met. Many
haven't a clue about the Constitution, or oftentimes, about the content
of the Bill they are voting for.

That Bills are constantly being introduced -- much less passed -- in
Congress that violate the plain-language prohibitions against ex post
facto laws, search and seizure, freedom of speech and assembly, et
cetera, shows this to be true.

Whether through ignorance or contempt, the result is the same.
Moreover, we have fewer prior-service in Congress than we've had in a
very long while. What we *do* have in government are the Sarah Lister
types, who -- like Clinton -- 'loathe' the military and have no concept
of how the inner workings of a military unit functions.

Here are some more URLs

- -- please have a look first....

Rather than attack each other over inanities, let's turn our attention
to heading this thing off before the "exercises" stop and the "operations"
begin.

This is for real people.

In Liberty,

Rick V.

Why attack the military?
- --------------------------
http://freeweb.digiweb.com/pages/RKBA/atak_mil.htm

Night raids on Civilian Areas
- ------------------------------
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990319close4.asp
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990309_xex_new_livefire.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990225_xex_the_military.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990226_xex_inside_view_.shtml

Examples of Lister/Morris in top levels of US Government:
- -----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ccnet.com/~suntzu75/pirn9779.htm
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/nsu/militari.htm
http://www.neopolitique.org/articles/oct97-military.html
http://tiger.bpa.missouri.edu/Research/Centers/CSOC/Howard_Schwartz.html
http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/document-4.4.1997.8.html
http://www.law.duke.edu/fac/morris/morris.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0895263769/o/qid%3D901808185/sr%3D2-2/002-0511558-1324255

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA
- ----------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:26:30 -0500
From: Joe Sylvester <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Okay, let's put a stop to this!

At 06:45 AM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Joe Sylvester wrote:

>>The 160 Special Operations Aviation Regiment/Night Stalkers and Delta
Force are *not* the same unit, as you seem to indicate.The 160th is based
at Ft. Campbell while Delta is based at Ft. Bragg. The 160th are the taxi
drivers for Delta and other units, as well as their "eyes in the sky".

>Jurist responds:

>Okay...
>...you might want to take a look at all the URLs I posted at the bottom
>of the message. The articles cited to in the URLs go into greater depth
>in unit identification -- that's why they are included. There certainly
>is a distinction between the various units, be they Delta, Special
>Forces, Rangers, et cetera.

Been there, done that. I made the point because any little inaccurracy,
even inconsequential ones, will be used to discredit the entire thesis.

>Point of fact, the Night Stalkers have been identified by the sources,
>once again, --- in the URLs -- as being involved with the night-time NVG
>raids, but Marine and Navy units have also been involved in night urban
>assaults as well (Laser Cup, Last Dance, what have you).

>Splitting hairs over First Battalion or Second Regiment ignores the fact
>that those at the highest levels of government show every indicator of
>turning America's finest against Americans. This is a perversion of the
>American system and is nothing less than treason.

NO? You don't say? :(

>As a former Marine, it makes me seethe to think that I may be forced to
>choose between violating my own oath to uphold and defend the
>Constitution (which is still in effect from the time I took it!) to
>giving up my Arms, giving up my Freedom, giving up on America, or firing
>on my Brothers in Arms. This is despicable and tragic. I want to head
>this off by all possible peaceful means -- hence the need for us to take
>political and legal action NOW.

Tell me about it. They and you are my brothers in arms too. I just wore a
different colored "suit". See .sig

>Rather than attack each other over inanities, let's turn our attention
>to heading this thing off before the "exercises" stop and the
>"operations" begin.

Twer not an attack, just a correction/clarification. Call it *constructive*
critisism.

>This is for real people.

I guess that means it leaves me out. I've been called a lot of things,
egghead, fatso, even "Sir", but never a real person. :)

Dennis J. Sylvester
Captain USAFR(ret)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 20:47:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: What? MORE Helicopter raids in civilian areas? - WHY?

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 00:29:31 -0500
From: [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: What? MORE Helicopter raids in civilian areas? - WHY?

Ladies and Gents of the RKBA,

What's going on here? I used to play helicopter commando with the
Marines. We had lots of space and "combat towns" on board base to do
training with.

There was and is no need to conduct operations anywhere close to
civilian-occupied areas -- unless the purpose is to get civilians used
to your presence ('lulling' into a false sense of complacency?).

When you play connect-the-dots with the personalities in charge of the
USA, their political agenda and the intentions and capabilities of their
allies in the press, overseas (Red China et al) and in Congress (58
Socialists there - http://www.dsausa.org/pc/pc.caucus.html), it does not
look good.

For those of you with plans of cacheting valuables - pay attention to
the scenario given below.

Believe me, all this has *everything* to do with the RKBA, and with
Freedom. We must pay attention and find out just what is going on.
We have 8 months left. Buy your Night Vision equipment now.

In liberty,

Rick V.
- --------------------------------------------------------

Not ready for rumble

Sleepers alarmed by helicopter-borne commandos Friday, March 19, 1999

By Torsten Ove, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

In the black of a peaceful winter night in the Beaver County
countryside, the first mean machines came chop-chop-chopping low and
loud over Don and Phyllis Wilfong's house at 3:27 a.m. yesterday,
rattling the windows and obliterating any hope of sleep.

A second intimidating ruckus followed about five minutes later.

Then, five minutes after that, another.

"It sounded like they were landing on the house," said Phyllis, 57, of
New Sewickley, who bolted up in bed with Don and the couple's suddenly
very alert Chihuahua. "It shook everything. Our house was shaking. Our
bed was shaking. I don't know how anyone couldn't hear that. I couldn't
figure out what the heck was going on."

Short answer: A squadron of 12 military helicopters was on maneuvers,
and lots of people got scared.

...
So, were these the dreaded black helicopters of legend? Were they filled
with commandos out to sabotage the nuclear power plant in Shippingport?
Was this a prelude to an invasion? And wasn't that the Cigarette-Smoking
Man in the lead chopper?

"We've been taking calls all morning," said Capt. Michael Mastroianni of
the Penn Township police in Westmoreland County. "We don't know who they
were. Needless to say, the military doesn't check in with us."

...Everyone had the same question: What's up with these helicopters?

...Maybe Beth Nicholson and her husband, Shawn, could explain. At 3:30
a.m., a group of choppers churned over their house on Stiefel Avenue in
Franklin, Beaver County. Fifteen minutes later, another group blasted
by, and 25 minutes later, a third.

...Not a war, but a one-day training operation, the exact details of
which remained sketchy yesterday.

"According to the Army, the choppers were taking part in a joint Army and
Air Force Special Operations training mission called "Exercise Laser Cup."

[PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART]

***[S]pecial forces officers were to practice finding buried items near
an old mine.****

[end item]

....Flying at night is necessary because almost all special forces
missions are conducted in darkness.

...Soldiers practicing urban warfare techniques slid down ropes from
hovering helicopters amid simulated explosions and gunfire.

...Trouble was, no one seemed to know about it, and finding out who
owned the choppers proved an exercise in frustration.

When asked if the helicopters might have come from his unit, for example,
an officer at the Army Reserve base in Oakdale said the outfit "has no
rotary-wing assets." Translation: We don't have choppers.

... "We made some inquiries, but nobody would tell us who they were,"
said Jay Schall, a supervisor at the Westmoreland County 911 center.
"I would prefer they notify us so we can tell the people who call. But
[the military] doesn't have to tell us anything. They're federal and
we're county. There's nothing we can do about it."
http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/19990319close4.asp

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990309_xex_new_livefire.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990225_xex_the_military.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/19990226_xex_inside_view_.shtml

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA
- ----------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:49:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LPU: DesNews editorial

While I don't support the contention that rights are totally dependent
on the will of the majority, the DN and the Trib keep saying this, but
how accurate and unbiased are the polls on which these statistics are
based? Does anyone have access to the raw data, such as date, polling
firm, exact questions asked, who responded as compared to who was
approached in addition to the actual numbers of total and specific
responses, etc.?

Scott

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 [e-mail] provided:

> Keep schools, churches gun-free=20
> Deseret News editorial

>       An overwhelming number of Utahns advocate the obvious =97 guns
> should be kept out of schools and churches. We concur.
SNIP
>       90 percent of Utahns believe
> all weapons should be banned from public schools. Eighty-six percent
> think guns =97 including concealed weapons =97 should be kept from
> churches. Three-fourths want firearms prohibited from Olympic venues in
> 2002. While 58 percent feel they should be kept out of private
> businesses open to the public.
SNIP to end


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:47:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: FYI: Important Gun Data

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:33:23 -0700
From: Jim Dexter <[e-mail]>
To: LPUtah Forum <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: FW: FYI: Important Gun Data

- ----------

This gun data brought to you by the

National Center For Policy Analysis
DAILY POLICY DIGEST
Wednesday, March 24, 1999

PointCast can automatically load NCPA's Policy Digest summaries
on your desktop for easy reading.  For information go to
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LAWSUITS IGNORE BENEFITS OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE

The mayors of Chicago and New Orleans have filed lawsuits against
the gun industry, arguing that their cities should be reimbursed
for the public health and safety costs associated with treating
and preventing firearms injuries.

Gun control advocates have compared these suits to those against
the tobacco industry.  But a new National Center for Policy
Analysis study concludes that unlike tobacco, guns produce
tangible social benefits.

Criminologist Gary Kleck estimates there are about 2.5 million
defensive gun uses annually -- often merely showing the weapon.
And research supports the view that the best defense against
violence is an armed response.  For example:

   o   Women faced with assault are 2.5 times less likely to
       suffer serious injury if they respond with a firearm than
       if they defend themselves with less effective weapons or
       offer no resistance (see Figure II
       http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s223/gif/s223fig2.gif ).

   o   The Justice Department says only one-fifth of the victims
       who defended themselves with firearms suffered injury,
       compared to almost half of those who used weapons other
       than firearms or had no weapon.

Socially, the benefits of defensive gun use exceed the costs of
firearm crimes by as much as $38.9 billion -- an amount equal to
about $400 per year for every household in America.

Serious crime in the U.S. is at a 20-year low, and one reason is
that since 1987, 22 states have made it easier for private
citizens to get concealed carry permits.  For instance, economist
John Lott found that:

   o   Concealed carry laws reduce murder by 8.5 percent, rape by
       5 percent and severe assault by 7 percent (see Figure III
       http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s223/gif/s223fig3.gif ).

   o   Had liberalized concealed carry laws prevailed throughout
       the country in any given year, there would have been 1,600
       fewer murders, 4,200 fewer rapes and 60,000 fewer severe
       assaults.

These lawsuits would not only establish bad policy, but bad law,
concludes the study.  Courts have recognized that firearms are no
different from other potentially dangerous products and have held
that legislatures should decide whether guns should be legal and
widely available.  Furthermore, it is a well-established tort law
principle that manufacturers are not responsible for the criminal
misuse of their products.

Source: H. Sterling Burnett, "Suing Gun Manufacturers" Hazardous
to Our Health," Policy Report No. 223, March 1999, National
Center for Policy Analysis, 12655 N. Central Expy., Suite 720,
Dallas, Texas 75243, [phone].

For text go to http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s223.html

For more on Liability and Guns
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/crime51.html


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:43:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Request: negative effects of gun control

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:05:57 -0500
From: Paul Nixon <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Help needed:

Anybody care to help this person:

From: [e-mail]

I am 15 and doing a report on the negative effects of gun control. I would
like any info as to where to get statistics and other info.  Any other help
is appreciated. Thanks!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have a new web site!
http://www.onelist.com
Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: [e-mail] (Paul Nixon)
AirPower Information Services   The Pro-freedom Online Service, since 1989!
BBS:610-259-2193 Telnet://airpower.dynip.com  ftp://ftp.airpower.dynip.com
http://www.airpower.com               http://www.airpower.dynip.com
This message was processed by AirPower's NetXpress Server.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:57:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: Pre-emptive Concessions are dangerous and ineffective

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:30:11 -0500
From: [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list PRN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pre-emptive Concessions are dangerous and ineffective

Attn: Mr. Alan Gottlieb of the CCRKBA,

This message is intended for Mr. Alan Gottlieb.  If this should arrive
at the wrong address, please pardon the error and kindly delete the
message.

Dear Mr. Gottlieb,

I understand you are supporting a Bill supporting gun locks on weapons
in an effort to head off more onerous legislation.

It is this same exact flawed reasoning that has severely damaged our
fundamental right to self defense, as recognized by the U.S.
Constitution and many State Constitutions.

As anyone can recall from the dark days leading into WWII, the name
Neville Chamberlain is remembered as being associated with cowardly
concessions that served on to encourage a beastial tyrant on to greater
efforts.  The people of Czechoslovakia were betrayed by their allies and
given up to the wolves in order to obtain "peace in our time."

Please note this next part is given with the greatest respect, but
brought out because it is quite relevant:  I take it from your name that
your are of Jewish extraction.  Nothing need be said as to how the Jews
suffered under this same man who failed to be bought off with
concessions.  However it should be noted that Hitler's rise to power and
the fate of the Jews was sealed by the gradual disarmament of any
opponents to the State under the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938, which became
the blueprint for the Gun Control Act of 1968 http://jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm

If there is a learning curve when dealing with guns, freedom, gun laws
and anti-gun activists, we must know that gun laws merely serve to
disarm the law-abiding.  We must know that those seeking gun laws are
doing so for ulterior motives or because they are "useful idiots" whose
thinking ignores history, law and fact -- neither of which is a proper
basis for a change in the laws. Particularly when the Rights being
attacked are FUNDAMENTAL to LIFE ITSELF.

We must know that any time only the government has guns, freedom is on
the brink of extinction, and oftentimes mass slaughter of civilians
results. http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/DBG.CHAP1.HTM results.

I submit now is not the time for concessions.  Now is the time for a
ROLLBACK -- going on to the offensive -- so to speak.  We need to hold
up the 1968 Gun Control Act up as the NAZI LAW that it is.  We need to
indelibly stain the supporters of that law as NAZI LAW supporters and
keep pounding them with that drumbeat: 'a NAZI LAW has no place in the
American body of laws' and 'What?! YOU support and defend a NAZI LAW???'

These tactics are the sort that the Left has used with the glaring
differences of 1) it being based on TRUTH and 2) that a repeal of the
NAZI 1968 GCA will SAVE lives.

I urge you to cease any further attempts at placating our enemies.
Their mindset is a Totalitarian one and I shudder to think what kind of
society it will be when they are FINALLY placated.


Your friend in Liberty,

Richard E. Vaughan, Esq.

http://freeweb.digiweb.com/pages/RKBA/commies.htm

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The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

New laws - justified by WHAT facts????

YAHOO NEWS
WASHINGTON (Reuters) Monday December 28 12:31 AM ET  - The violent crime
rate in the United States fell almost 7 percent in 1997 to the lowest
level since the National Crime Victimization Survey was started 25 years
ago, the Justice Department announced Sunday.

In 1997, the last year for which full statistics were compiled, there
were an estimated 39 violent crimes per 1,000 U.S. residents 12 years or
older.

That was lower than the 42 per 1,000 the year before and represented a
21 percent drop since 1993. The nation's murder rate alone fell by 8
percent meaning the 18,210 murders last year were
28 percent lower than in 1993.

The survey was begun by the department's Bureau of Justice Statistics
in 1973 and at that time there were an estimated 48 violent crimes per
1,000 residents. Violent crime went up drastically in the 1980s but the
rate has been coming down in recent years.

Most categories of crime were down in 1997 with property crime also
reaching its lowest level since the survey's beginning. Last year there
were an estimated 248 attempted or completed property crimes per 1,000
U.S. households, down from 266 the previous year and 554 in 1973.

Robbery fell the most among 1997 violent crime, down 17 percent, while
the statistics for rape and sexual assault did not change from the year
before.

The West had the highest crime rate in 1997, and about half of the
violent crimes were committed by someone the victim knew.

``As in previous years, males were more vulnerable to violent crime than
females, younger people more vulnerable than older people and blacks
more vulnerable than whites,'' the department said in a statement.
``Persons in urban areas had violent and property crime rates that were
higher than the rates for suburban and rural residents.''

Still, the survey estimated that only 37 percent of all crimes and 44
percent of all violent crimes were ever reported to police.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/pl/story.html?s=v/nm/19981228/pl/crime_2.html

(URL may wordwrap)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

MORE AMMO

"National crime rates have been falling at the same time as gun
ownership has been rising... states experiencing the greatest reductions
in crime are also the ones with the fastest growing percentages of gun
ownership." http://www.toledoblade.com:80/editorial/edit/8k23fole.htm

MURDER STATISTICS ARE BEING SCRUTINIZED Wash. Times, 07/02/1998 at C5 "In
the first half of 1997, New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles led the
nation in slayings.  Baltimore placed fifth and the District [of
Columbia] sixth, according to statistics released by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation." [ALL have had long-standing gun bans!]

Thirty-one states now have Right-to-Carry (RtC) laws.  As states passed
RtC reform over the 19 years encompassed by the monumental University of
Chicago Lott/Mustard study, the number of multiple-victim public
shootings declined by 84%.  Deaths from these shootings plummeted on
average by 90%, injuries by 82%.  Violent crime such as murder, rape and
aggravated assaults were down in every category of statistics collected
wherever the citizen's right to carry concealed arms was recognized.
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Lott/guncont.html

Indeed, Americans use privately-owned guns 2,500,000 times each year to
thwart violent attacks against themselves and their loved ones. Where
concealed handgun laws had been in effect for 5 years, murders declined
by at least 15%, rapes by 9% and robberies by 11%.  Permit holders were
found to be extremely law-abiding, and data on accidental deaths and
suicides indicate there were no increases.

In fact, studies have shown that you stand a greater chance of being
shot by a cop than by a gun-toting civilian: 11% of individuals involved
in police shootings were later found to be innocents mistaken for
criminals, while only 2% of those in civilian shootings were so
misidentified.  Moreover, private citizens in urban areas encounter and
kill up to three times as many criminals as do law enforcement
personnel.

Women also benefited under the relaxed carry laws, but those who
behaved passively when they were attacked proved to be 2.5 times more
likely to be seriously injured than women who defended themselves with a
gun.

Gun Control Advocates Purvey Deadly Myths
http://www.junkscience.com/nov98/lottgun.htm

General Firearms Facts
http://amfire.com/afistatistics/general.html

Firearms and Crime Statistics
http://www.av.qnet.com/~harv/stats.htm

Most violent crime committed by repeat offenders, about one-third of
whom are already on probation, parole or pretrial release.
http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/juvcrm/eocp2.html

Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?
http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/tennmed.html

John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and
Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns".  - THE Definitive Study, showing
that beyond a reasonable doubt, Guns Save Lives and stop crime.
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guns.html

Large City Crime Rates - FBI Confirms Downward Trend
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/crime/index.html

Report: School crime down
http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9810/15/school.violence.01/

Suter vs Kellerman home invasion study
http://rkba.org/letters/suter.kellerman.home-invasion

Gun Control Kills Kids (Freedom, Genocide and Gun Control)
http://www.webspan.net/~hhr/myths.html

Second Thoughts of an Armed Liberal - Debunks some myths
http://www.arcrafts.com/2think.html

Statistics Links
http://www.aloha.net/~davidht/koloa/refstats.htm


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End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #132
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