ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/utah-firearms/archive/v02.n069

Internet Message Format | 1998-06-07 | 41KB

From: [e-mail] (utah-firearms-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #69
Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


utah-firearms-digest       Monday, June 8 1998       Volume 02 : Number 069




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 18:07:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Sly Sez: "Go Door-to-Door and Collect The Guns...."

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:25:16 -0400
From: "John A. Quayle" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

Availability of Guns is Not the Problem

"The first thing we would like to do is give Mr. Stallone an award for
hypocrisy at least of the week, if not the month or the year. Here's a
man that's making at least hundreds of millions of dollars off of
firearms, glorifying violence, if you will, the way he uses them. And
for him to turn around and say that other people's ought to be
confiscated is just a little bit much," said Larry Pratt, executive
director of Gun Owners of America on "Direct Line with Paul Weyrich,"
remarking with regard to a statement made by actor Sylvester Stallone
that we should go door to door and confiscate every gun as a result of
the recent school shootings. Pratt added, "The fact of the matter
is...there was a grisly murder of some teenagers involving a young lady,
a fellow student, that was going to snitch on them and they hung her and
beat her head with a rock. And that, it seemed to me, would have been
at least as worthy of the kind of coverage that we were being treated to
with the Jonesboro and other kinds of episodes. But it didn't happen
because there is an agenda - the media, most of the media -- certainly
shares the views of President Clinton and others that somehow guns are
just bad and need to be removed. And what we've been pointing out is
that there was a great deal more access to guns by young people within
our lifetime, people that are in our organization - Gun Owners of
America - even in New York City, [students] went to school with their
rifles because they had team practice. I've talked to teachers from
Pennsylvania schools that said, 'Oh yeah, the shooting range was right
underneath my feet when I taught.' So to say that somehow we've got to
get guns further away from Americans because kids have too much access,
ignores the fact that when guns were readily available, much more than
they are now to kids, we didn't have this kind of problem. The folks
that are responsible for the problem don't want us to talk about - 'you
can't put the Ten Commandments on the wall of a school, why the court
said a kid might be influenced by it.' Well, you'd hope so. Like,
'Thou shalt not kill.' That would be a good place to start."
Contact: Larry Pratt @ Gun Owners of America 703.321.8585



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 18:53:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: quotes for the politically incorrect- 3/3

IT'S THE CRIMINALS, NOT THE GUNS STUPID!
PRO-FREE SPEECH, PRO-GUN, PRO-FREEDOM!
LET'S WIN THE WAR ON CRIME, ARM VICTIMS!!!
LAWS DON'T STOP CRIME...ARMED CITIZENS DO.
NO GUNS, NO PEACE...KNOW GUNS, KNOW PEACE.
SARAH BRADY: THE WOMAN OF HITLER'S DREAMS.
IT DOESN'T SAY..."SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, MUCH".
SO MANY LIBERALS... TOO FEW FLAME-THROWERS...
SEND SARAH BRADY FOR A RIDE WITH TED KENNEDY.
SWITCH BLADE LAWS STOP STABBINGS TOO...UH HUH...
SECOND AMENDMENT, BUT MAYBE THE FIRST DOMINO.....
IT'S NOT ONLY FOR THE GUNS. IT'S FOR THE FREEDOM!!!
PATRIOTIC, NOT PSYCHOTIC. *I* TRUST ME WITH MY GUN.
THE 2ND AMENDMENT ARMS PATRIOTS, NOT SPORTSMEN!
TAKE A BITE OUT OF CRIME: ARM THE CITIZENS (VICTIMS)!
TECHNICALITY: A LIBERAL'S VIEW OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT.
KNOW GUNS AND BE SAFE.NO GUNS, AND NOBODY'S SAFE!
SARAH BRADY...BECAUSE SOMETIMES IPECAC ISN'T ENOUGH.
SAVE ME FROM PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAVE ME FROM MYSELF!
SECOND AMENDMENT RELATED "SPORTING USE": TYRANNICIDE.
MOST CRIMINALS SHOULD BE DEALT WITH BY ARMED CITIZENS!
SMITH & WESSON - THE ORIGINAL POINT-AND-CLICK INTERFACE!
RENO, NV RENAMED TO DOGPOOP, NV FOR BETTER REPUTATION.
OBVIOUSLY SOME UNNAMED AGENCY'S SICK SENSE OF HUMOR...
NO COMPROMISE - NO SURRENDER - NO FIREARMS PROHIBITION!
THE 2ND AMENDMENT DOESN'T SAY "...ONLY THESE FIREARMS..."!
KEEP CLOTHES & GUNS WHERE YOU CAN FIND THEM IN THE DARK.
THE 2ND AMENDMENT GUARENTEES ALL THE OTHER AMENDMENTS.
NEVER EVER VOLUNTEER TO GIVE UP YOUR PERSONAL FIREARMS!
THE 2ND AMENDMENT: IT'S NOT ABOUT GUNS, IT'S ABOUT FREEDOM.
KNOCK KNOCK!! "BATF! OPEN UP OR WE'LL SHOOT YOUR CHILDREN!"
OF COURSE GUN CONTROL "WORKS." THE QUESTION IS FOR WHOM!
NO GUNS?? WHAT SHOULD I USE FOR DEFENSE, HARSH LANGUAGE?!
LUKE 22:36 "...HE WHO HAS NO SWORD, SELL HIS ROBE TO BUY ONE."
POISON GAS: INSTRUMENT OF DEATH - DACHAU, AUSCHWITZ, WACO...
RUBY RIDGE RULE #6: IT'S OKAY TO KILL THOSE AT SOCIETY'S FRINGE.
IT'S NOT A ASSAULT WEAPON, IT'S A SECURITY ENHANCEMENT DEVICE!
SPEAKING WITHOUT THINKING IS LIKE SHOOTING WITHOUT TAKING AIM.
LEXINGTON AND CONCORD WERE THE FIRST GUN CONTROL PROTESTS!.
LESS THAN 1/5TH OF 1% OF THE GUNS IN THE US ARE MISUSED IN CRIME.
MAY THE FLEAS OF A THOUSAND CAMELS INFEST JANET RENO'S CROTCH!
LIMITED INFRINGEMENT..LIKE BEING A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT.IT IS OR ISN'T!
JANET RENO DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFICATIONS TO BE A METER MAID.
SARAH MUST BE AN ONLY CHILD. NOBODY'S SO HORNY TO RISK HAVING TWO!
THE 2ND AMENDMENT IS IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT IGNORES THE OTHER 9!
SOME MEN ARE ALIVE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S AGAINST THE LAW TO KILL THEM!
THE 1ST COUNTRY HITLER CONQUERED ... WAS GERMANY WITH GUN CONTROL.
THE 2ND AMENDMENT IS TO ASSAULT AS THE 1ST AMENDMENT IS TO SLANDER.
PROOF THAT GUNOWNERS AREN'T VIOLENT...CHARLES SCHUMER IS STILL ALIVE.
SCHUMER'S SURGEON MUST BE GREAT! THE LOBOTOMY SCARS HARDLY SHOW...
IT IS DANGEROUS TO BE RIGHT WHEN THE GOVERNMENT IS WRONG. - D. KORESH
LIBERALS AND BANDITS BOTH WANT THE POPULATION UNARMED. COINCIDENCE?
THE DOCTORS SHOULD HAVE THROWN SCHUMER OUT AND KEPT THE AFTERBIRTH.
NEW GAME, NEW RULES. WE CHANGE THE LAW. YOU'RE OUTLAWS. - GOVERNMENT
LIBERALS ARE MORE COMFORTABLE SEEING 2 MEN FRENCH-KISSING THAN ARMED.
THE CONSTITUTION PROTECTS THE PEOPLE FROM GOVERNMENT. GUNS ENSURE IT.
TYRANTS LIKE AN UNARMED POPULOUS.
WACO WAS JUST ANOTHER INDIAN VILLAGE.
WIN THE WAR ON CRIME. ARM THE VICTIMS.
WACO - THE BATF'S REPLY TO PATRICK HENRY.
YEAH, I FIRED A WARNING SHOT...IN HIS CHEST.
THEY CAN HAVE MY GUNS...158 GRAINS AT A TIME!
WACO, TEXAS, THE TIANANMEN SQUARE OF AMERICA
THREE WORDS THAT QUELL RIOTS: "SHOOT TO KILL."
WANT MY GUNS? COME INTO RANGE AND GET THEM!
THERE IS NO SUCH THING, AS LIMITED INFRINGEMENT.
YOU NEVER NEED A GUN UNTIL YOU NEED ONE BADLY.
WHEN THE 2ND GOES, THE REST ARE ONLY DOMINOES!
THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE.
THE RIGHT TO ARMS IS FREEDOM'S INSURANCE POLICY.
WE'RE NOT HUNTING DUCKS... WE'RE HUNTING TYRANTS.
WELL, OF COURSE *ARMED* PEASANTS TEND TO BE UPPITY!
THE US IS NOT A FREE COUNTRY. ASK THE IRS OR THE BATF.
THIS IS AMERICA. THIS ISN'T A POLICE STATE - JUROR, WACO
WE'RE FED-UP!!! AND WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!
VERMONT: STATE WITH LOWEST CRIME RATE & NO GUN LAWS.
WHEN OUTLAWS ARE OUTGUNNED THEN... NO MORE OUTLAWS!
WHAT'S OUR SECRET INGREDIENT? A FREE MAN AND HIS RIFLE.
WELL, LET ME JUST SAY THIS... **I'M NOT GIVING UP MY GUNS!**
THOSE WHO WOULD BE ENSLAVED, MUST FIRST BE DISARMED.
THEY WANT TO DISARM YOU - REFUSE TO BE DISARMED! - LIDDY
TRUST NO GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO DISARM ITS CITIZENS.
TO DETER CRIME, PLACE A GUN NUT BEHIND EVERY DEAD BOLT.
THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED BY RELIGIOUS NUTS WITH GUNS!
VERMONT: LEAST GUN CONTROL AND CRIME. DC: THE OPPOSITE.
TRAVELLING UNARMED IS LIKE BOATING WITHOUT A LIFE JACKET.
THE MOST COMMON ELEMENT IN CRIME IS CRIMINALS. NOT GUNS.
YES, I'M PARANOID, AND THEY DO WANT TO TAKE MY GUNS AWAY!
TRUST A GOVERNMENT WHICH WON'T TRUST ME WITH A FIREARM?
WHEN GOVERNMENTS FALL, PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE LINED UP & SHOT.
THEY'RE NOT ASSAULT WEAPONS--THEY'RE CIVILIAN DEFENSE ARMS.
WHAT'S THE BEST DEFENSIVE GUN? THE ONE YOU HAVE WITH YOU!
WHEN THEY COME FOR YOUR GUNS, GIVE THEM THE BULLETS FIRST.
THE PROBLEM ISN'T REPEATING RIFLES, IT'S REPEATING OFFENDERS.
WITHOUT A GUN, THE FLAG YOU'RE WAVING MAY AS WELL BE WHITE!
WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN THEY COME FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR'S GUNS?
THE FAMILY THAT SHOOTS TOGETHER -- SHOULDN'T BE MESSED WITH!
WANT MY AMMUNITION? YOU CAN HAVE IT ONE BULLET AT A TIME.
WHAT PART OF "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
WACO: AMERICA'S FIRST TIANANMEN SQUARE. WHERE'S THE NEXT ONE?
THE GOVERNMENT TOOK MY GUNS, I'M SAFER NOW, THANKS FUEHRER!
THUGS W/ GUNS ARE BAD, BUT THUGS W/ GUNS AND *BADGES*...UH OH!
WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE GUNS!
WE WERE MEANT TO BE ARMED, THE LORD GAVE US A TRIGGER FINGER!
TO BURGLAR: STOP!!! PLEASE READ THIS HCI BROCHURE WHILE I CALL 911!
WARNING TO CRIMINALS: DON'T BOTHER RUNNING. YOU'LL ONLY DIE TIRED!
THEY CAN HAVE MY GUN WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS.
THE SWISS ARE ARMED. THE SWISS ARE FREE AND AT PEACE. THINK ABOUT IT.
THOUGHT CRIMES, POLITICAL CLEANSING AND GUN CONTROL GO HAND IN HAND...
WACO: THE FBI FORBADE THEM SURRENDER...THEN MASSACRED CHILDREN & ALL.
WE SHOULD FORGIVE OUR ENEMIES--AFTER THEY'VE BEEN TAKEN OUT AND SHOT!
THOSE WHO BEAT THEIR GUNS INTO PLOWSHARES'LL PLOW FOR THOSE WHO DON'T.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:49:07 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Prozac & School Shootings

Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting

        by MAUREEN SIELAFF
        [e-mail]
        The Terre Haute Vigo Examiner

SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his
Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel
had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription
drug called Prozac.  This particular drug has factored in almost all wild
shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years.  Eli Lilly of
Indianapolis,
Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this drug is
alleged to induce in patients.

Prozac is commonly given to youths as a treatment for depression.
In the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A.
Opler, M.D., Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for
Prozac: apathy; hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid
reactions, antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts.

The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by
Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and
Company of Indianapolis, Indiana.  It was last revised on June
12, 1997, and can be found in each package of Prozac:

Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in the U.S.,
12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety, nervousness,
or insomnia.  In similar trials for those diagnosed with
obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the
patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%.

Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of patients
treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite.
However, only rarely have patients discontinued treatment with
Prozac because of this symptom.  Those diagnosed with OCD, again,
came in at a higher rate of 17%.

Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills, hemorrhage
and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and vomiting,
agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep disorder, ear pain,
taste perversion, and tinnitus.

The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression
improvement scale based on two studies showed that of those who took
40mg of Prozac, 0% were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no
change, 28% were minimally improved, 27% much improved, and
12% very much improved.  Meaning that of those tested only 39%
showed any reasonable improvement from taking this drug.

Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to
this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear
to correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership.  But when the
percentage of these killers that are on
Prozac is compared to the percentage of the general public on
Prozac, a very disturbing pattern emerges.  Though Prozac does indeed
help many people suffering from depression, it appears that it does
indeed also drive many into homicidal rages.

When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated, several bombs that he had
constructed were discovered.  With a ban on bombs already in place, he
nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might
well have taken to school instead of guns.  So the question arises, if
guns had been banned like bombs, would the danger have been
averted?  The unmistakable answer is that it would not.  And with the
shootings correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac,
why is the public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while
efforts are directed instead toward something that shows no
correlation?

On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after
finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised
ventures into the woods.  The next day, Wednesday,
May 20th, 15 year old Kip Kinkel showed up at Thurston High
School with a dangerous attitude and a newly purchased stolen gun that
he had gotten from another student.  A security guard caught wind of
the arrangement and the two boys were arrested, booked, and then
released to their parents.

On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after shooting
his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and
proceeded to the high school.  He walked into the cafeteria and fired off
51 rounds of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the
students and injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14
through 18.  The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a
17 year old wrestler, tackled
Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help restrain him.

Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of
his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis.  Gun control advocates
are outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens.
Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about
on a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do.  Still others paint a
depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end of their
ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his
unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should
have been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal.

A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun confiding in
him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with his son.
 The friend stated that the boy's parents sought counseling and
attempted to maintain a very structured home life.  "As parents, they just
kept trying."

The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon
National Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the
Guard's Youth Challenge Program.  An official with the Guard stated that
Mr. Kinkel seemed at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his
son "mainstreamed back into school."  The Guard
YCP takes in children who "are on the razor's edge, ready to fall on the
dark side."  Obviously Kip Kinkel was already over the edge.

His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was irrationally
ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, the school
nurse, school management, and police officials.  Most had the attitude
that he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned.  But how
could this be?

All were well aware of the boy's bizarre behavioral patterns.
Although they might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can
follow up with one story or another of comments and actions that
definitely describe a boy that is anything but "average".

Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with drugs
that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits than
the problems they have.  You name the attitude and there is a drug to
supposedly help or cure it.

It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be
effective; getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives.
It may be time we rise and help our children through productive activities
and quit drugging them senseless.


http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com/




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 21:04:44 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Prozac & School Shootings

At 04:49 PM 6/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting
>
>        by MAUREEN SIELAFF
>        [e-mail]
>        The Terre Haute Vigo Examiner


Prozac doesn't cause crime any more than guns cause crime.  Many criminals
use guns.  Many criminals use drugs.  But neither drugs nor guns are
_causal_.  Only _people_ can commit crimes.

Sarah

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 22:23:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Heston snipes at President Clinton during NRA speech

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 03:22:06 -0400
From: Leroy Crenshaw <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

Heston snipes at President Clinton during NRA speech
5.30 p.m. ET (2131 GMT) June 6, 1998

By Dinah Wisenberg Brin, Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Charlton Heston lashed out at President Clinton on
Saturday as he called on members of the National Rifle Association to unify
behind him.

Despite fierce opposition from a minority faction, Heston is expected
to be elected president of the NRA during the group's 127th convention,
which started Friday.

Heston criticized the media and politicians and took special aim at
Clinton:

"Mr. Clinton, sir, America did not trust you with our health care system.
America did not trust you with gays in the military. We did not trust you
with our 21-year-old daughters, and we sure, Lord, don't trust you with
our guns.''

More than 40,000 NRA members attended the convention, headlined "The
Second Amendment, America's First Freedom,'' which ends Wednesday.

The organization's board of directors is expected to select Heston as the
NRA's president on Monday.

"I came here to heal,'' the 73-year-old actor said, calling for an end to
quarreling within the NRA.

He noted the right of members to disagree, but then added: "Once the votes
are counted, the die is cast. Get together or get out of the way.''

Heston has been criticized by NRA board member Neal Knox, 62, who has
been quarreling with the leadership for more than 20 years. Last year,
Heston unseated him as first vice president.

Knox and other NRA members contend Heston has an uneven record on gun
rights, noting his appearances in support of the nation's first federal
gun-control law after Robert Kennedy's assassination 30 years ago.
They also did no like his comment on a radio program last year that
semiautomatic AK-47s were inappropriate for private use.

Executive vice president Wayne LaPierre accused Knox "and his gang''
of damaging the organization and of turning the Internet "into a sewer
pipe of lies about the NRA and its membership.''

"To attack and malign Charlton Heston is unforgivable. This man has done
more for our cause in one appearance than you will do in a lifetime,''
LaPierre said.

The NRA, LaPierre said, is engaged in a more important "culture war''
against outside enemies--television anchors, Hollywood celebrities--who
attack the Second Amendment right to bear arms and treat gun owners as
second-class citizens.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 22:23:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Fed Gun Registration To Begin Nov.30

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat,  6 Jun 1998 12:38:08 -0800
From: Jon Roland  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Fed Gun Registration To Begin Nov.30
To: "Sarah E., Flemming" <[e-mail]>, [e-mail],
    [e-mail]

http://www.bloomfieldpress.com/federalup.htm#registration

Alan Korwin
For Publication
557 Words
One Time North American Serial Rights
[phone] FAX
[phone] Phone
May 26, 1998

The issue is no longer "if" or "whether" the federal government will
register gun owners nationally. It is their announced plans, and the
system is nearly completed. They'll tell you on the phone, they'll mail
you the brochure, you can read about it on their website (not any website,
their website). These are the highlights:

The name and full ID of every retail gun buyer in the country will be
recorded by the FBI, starting Nov. 30. Social security numbers will be
semi-optional until Oct. 1, 2000, when they become mandatory. A tax
of up to $16 will apply to every purchase, unless your state's police
cooperate with the FBI (in which case the tax is waived); 19 such states
are "playing" as of this date. The FBI may lower its tax, working in
concert with membership groups, if they think it will aid acceptance
of registration. The official public comment period has ended.

FBI agents (who have effectively eliminated BATF from this business) claim
they have to do all this for security purposes. For audit purposes. They
claim they have to under the Brady law. They claim it's just an instant
check. None of these claims are supported. Gun owners will be kept online
for at least two years, and records will be stored permanently. The 2-year
revolving online registry will include between eight and fourteen million
people -- all the most current gun owners. Multiple permanent and
quasi-permanent backups are planned. Testing starts with Oregon and Nevada
in June, if the interface specs are on time.

Compare these phrases: Instant check. Ongoing long-term storage. See?
They're not the same. Congress enacted an instant check. Ongoing long-term
storage is the FBI's idea. Congress has not repealed the McClure-Volkmer
act, which unequivocally prohibits recording this information in a
government facility. The FBI is simply ignoring it. Claiming it doesn't
apply. The only glitch -- a minor one, apparently -- is the intent of
Congress: instant check, record nothing. I know, I know, you can argue
the validity of the instant check itself, but at least it's a law. The
rogue actions of the bureaucracies here are against the law. Prohibited
by law.

We don't need another law -- this is already illegal -- just enforce
the law against the government -- or forget the whole notion of "the
rule of law." Proposed legislation to require short time frames merely
has the horrendous effect of breaching the protection of McClure-Volkmer,
which now blanketly prohibits any recordation whatsoever.

Saving instant-check data is the opposite of the Brady law. Brady says
if the sale goes through the records shall be destroyed. Only a corrupt
reading of the phrase destroy all records ends up meaning save all records
and do whatever you want with them for as long as you deem proper. If
there's any question about Brady, check McClure-Volkmer, the law Charles
Schumer tries to repeal every year.

OK, so we've lost. Our own government plans to collect the name and
address of every innocent person who gets a gun after Nov. 30th. How
did we get into this mess anyway? Registration used to be the most feared
and staunchly resisted facet of government power grabs. Why haven't we
heard about this? The implications of that question are too chilling to
verbalize. I'll have more for you shortly.

- -- Alan Korwin

* NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material
is distributed under fair use without profit to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and
educational purposes.

===================================================================
Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825
916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM         Date: 06/06/98  Time: 12:38:08
http://www.constitution.org/     mailto:[e-mail]
===================================================================


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 22:23:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Fourth Check on Big Govt

The fourth check on big government
by Jerry D. Troyer

In 1787 the 13 new States refused to support the proposed Constitution
without a "Bill of Rights". This great country has a Republican form of
government. It is a government designed to prevent tyranny.

The sons of liberty joined to erect four fences around their government,
so it could not get out of bounds: The Executive, The Legislative, The
Judicial, and The Individual. Each was a check, or balance, on the other.

After God, the individual came first. A government with its powers nailed
down; fastened and confined to the proper defense of the individual---to
his pursuits of life, liberty, property and happiness, those inalienable
rights endowed by The Creator.(1)

In this Republic, a Citizen is not required to be a member of a majority
to have the right to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness.
The "Bill of Rights" is the cornerstone in a wall guaranteeing citizen
rights. The power of citizens acts as a check on the tyranny of government
power It is impossible to hope that the power of government can be
balanced against the rights of the individual without the Second Amendment.

The individual's right to defend life and property predates the
Constitution. Also, this right is guaranteed by both the Second and Ninth
Amendments to the Constitution.

The roots to the right to bear arms can be traced back to the Fourteeth
Century. At that time, English weapons restrictions made an exception for
both self defense and defense of one's dweling.(2)

In the "new World" the roots to the "Right to Bear Arms" starts in 1623.
The following is a quote from that era.

In 1623, Virginia forbade its colonists to travel unless they were "well
armed"; in 1631 it required colonists to engage in target practice on
Sunday and "bring their pieces to church." In 1658, it required every
householder to have a functioning firearm within his home and in 1673
its laws provided that a citizen who claimed he was too poor to purchase
a firearm would have one purchased for him by the government, which would
then require him to pay a reasonable price when able to do so. In
Massachusetts, the first session of the legislature ordered that not only
freemen, but also indentured servants own firearms and, in 1644, it
imposed a stern 6 shilling fine on any citizen who was not armed.(3)

The above excerpt gives a solid foundation to the individual "Right to Bear
Arms" before the Constitution. The "Founding Fathers" fear of big
government is documented in their written record. Today people have said
that times have changed and there is no longer a need for arms in the hands
of citizens. These people say that the police or government can protect
citizens from threats to life and property.

To decide if citizens should be disarmed consider the responsiveness of
government to the needs of citizens in other areas. In addition, a threat
to your life is an immediate need requiring an immediate response. If the
government is slow to respond, the citizen loses his life and/or property.
The right to bear arms is so important it cannot be left in the hands of
government alone.

Constitutionally, the government exists or representatives hold office
through the consent of the governed. This is a basic concept which checks
government power. Consider the following two situations. Could an unarmed
government function if all its citizens were armed? Recent events suggest
that individual interest would dominate all the government's activities and
group interest would suffer. Could an unrestrained (armed) government keep
the Republican form with free but disarmed citizens? The actions of
various governments around the world show individual rights disappear to
be replaced by group interest (the people in control of the government).

Should our Government fear its Citizens? Is it necessary that our
representatives fear being voted out of office? And fear opposition by
force if certain individual rights, are taken from the people? In order
for the four checks and balances basic to a Republican form of government
to work, the power of the people must remain strong. The "Right to
Bear Arms" is critical to maintaining all the rights of the people. The
rights of an individual to remain free requires them to exercise their
check and blancing power as a part of their government. A people will not
long remain free if they expect the government to control itself.

Notes:
1. Walton, Rus. "One Nation Under God". The Rebirth of America. The
Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation. 1986. P. 19.
2. Hardy, David T. "Armed Citizens, Citizens Armies: Toward a Jurisprudence
of the Second Amendment". 9 Harv. J. L. Pub. Pol'y 559,566-67 (1986)
3. The Right To Keep And Bear Arms: Report Of The Subcommittee On The
Constitution Of The Committee On The Judiciary, S. Doc. No. 2807, 97th
Cong., 2d Sess.3 (1982).

All Rights Reserved copywrited August 10, 1994


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 00:52:53 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The End of Activism

This apparently didn't get processed the first time I sent it out.
Apologies if it shows up twice!
S.


This is to let you all know that effective June 4, 1998, I have resigned
from the Board of Trustees of the Utah Shooting Sports Council.  My
intention is to devote full time to my family, writing, and other interests.

Effective as soon as I get confirmation that this note has gone out, I will
also be unsubscribing from the utah-firearms list.  Those people who wish
to contact me privately can still do so at this address, but please don't
just send copies of every single post to me.  If I wanted to read them all,
I'd stay subscribed! <g>

Those interested in my general reasons for resigning are invited to read my
essay "The End of Activism" which can be found at
http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/sarah.htm or at
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2110/F_EndActivism.html.  It will be on
my Web page as soon as the new design is finished.

Best wishes to all of you,
Sarah







Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com (under construction!)

Subscribe to "The Righter", a weekly column focusing on
civil liberties and individual action.
To subscribe send a message to: [e-mail] with the
message subscribe righter-list in the BODY of the message.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:15:27 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: NRA's President God -Forwarded

Received: from fs1.mainstream.net
    ([206.97.102.4])
    by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:00:25 -0600
Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA01504; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:57:37 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:57:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3)
    id sma001289; Mon Jun  8 11:54:49 1998
Message-Id: <001501bd92ee$943ded00$180b81ce@bugbox>
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
From: "Kevin McGehee" <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: NRA's President God
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

This morning on the radio I heard Charlton Heston's defense of his
statements about AK-47s being "inappropriate" for private ownership. He says
he doesn't have to like all guns to defend the right to own them.

On the one hand, this is actually sound -- we have the right to expect our
government to regard guns, as well as speech and religion, in exactly this
way. And if he's sincere, Heston appears to be better for gun owners than,
say, Dan Lungren.

On the other hand, should Heston succeed in his quest to become NRA's
president, he'd better stick more closely to the script thereafter. If he
ever thought it was tough dealing with just one director on a movie set, he
may have serious difficulty with 2.8 million directors, many of whom are
just watching for an excuse to yell, "CUT!"

As president of the NRA, Charlton Heston will be expected to avoid
discussions of the merits of particular guns if there are any he doesn't
like. He'll have to limit his statements to legal and constitutional issues,
and the conclusions of the growing body of scientific research that supports
the individual right to keep and bear arms. He's already proven he's not
immune to the willingness of Big Media to twist words to fit a Big Media
political agenda. Where his opinion differs from that of the association's
grassroots membership, Heston will have to be a good soldier and keep his
personal opinions private.

Welcome to power, Chuck.

Kevin McGehee
North Pole, Alaska
[e-mail]
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/

You have GOT to see http://www.llano.net/LCRP/page5.html



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:37:42 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Talking Points for Tienamen Square -Forwarded

Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA04208; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:46:00 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:46:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3)
    id sma004067; Sat Jun  6 03:43:33 1998
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
From: [e-mail]
To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: Talking Points for Tienamen Square
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

     Some humor to lighten things up. Unfortunately,
it isn't really funny when you think about it.

Regards,
Dennis Baron
                   ----------------------------------------------
Talking Points for Tienamen Square
Commentary by Dennis Shea, a regular feature of MSNBC.

  The following is Draft No. 3 of a speech prepared for delivery
by President Bill Clinton during his upcoming visit to Tiananmen
Square in Beijing. It was recently subpoenaed by eager
prosecutors in the Office of Independent Counsel.
>
       More than 25 years ago, President Richard Nixon traveled to
your country and inaugurated a new era in U.S.-China relations.
Today, I stand before you, a proud and faithful bearer of the
Nixonian legacy: invoking executive privilege, stonewalling criminal
 investigations and pursuing the policy of constructive engagement.

      Constructive engagement has been one of the great success
stories of the 20th century. Whether it#s the network of slave-labor
camps throughout China; the aggressive saber-rattling of your
military in the South China Sea; the wholesale destruction of
Tibetan culture; the persecution of millions of Christians and other
religious minorities; the brutal suppression of political dissent; the
vending of Chinese nuclear technology to Pakistan and Iran; the
violation of American copyright laws by Chinese profiteers; and the
crushing of pro-democracy demonstrators here in Tiananmen
Square, it#s as clear as egg-drop soup that the People#s Republic is
working hard to take its rightful place as a responsible member of
the community of civilized nations.

      My friends, the policy of constructive engagement is working
and working well.

 (Pause for applause.)

       Yes, we#ve had some bumps in the road. In recent weeks, I ve
lost a lot of face trying to explain why I allowed one of my fat-cat
buddies to sell you critical missile-guidance technology. Some have
even accused me of proving Karl Marx right: We capitalists will
indeed provide the rope by which we will hang ourselves. But I
have patiently endured these indignities because the policy of
constructive engagement must prevail.

 (Pause for applause.)

       It is sheer folly to allow the presence of 13 Chinese
 nuclear-tipped missiles targeted at American cities to interfere with
the deep and abiding friendship between our two peoples.

 (Pause for applause.)

       And speaking of people, I want to take this opportunity to
express my most profound thanks to General Liu, his enterprising
daughter Chaoying, and the other valiant fighting men and women
of the People s Liberation Army for their generous contributions to
the Clinton-Gore campaign.

    Your financial support was the great wall that prevented those
running-dog Republicans from running away with the White House
in 1996. Imagine if arms dealers like Wang Jun and hustlers like
Johnny Chung had not visited me in the Oval Office. Our bilateral
relations would be very different today had those encounters not
taken place.

       You know, back home we ve been hearing a great deal these
days about so-called Asian values. The experts tell us these Asian
values are inimical to democracy. So, it is doubly gratifying to see
how the leaders of the Chinese Communist Party have proven the
experts wrong by so avidly embracing one one of the most basic
red-white-and-blue values.

      Your willingness to participate in the democratic process by
making cash contributions to my campaign means there s real hope
that true, American-style democracy can take root here, too.

       Your experience with soft-money schemes will prove invaluable
as you learn the art of bundling contributions to get more political
bang for the buck; use independent  expenditures and  issue ads
to evade campaign-spending limits; exploit tax-exempt organizations
to promote your own partisan agenda; and shake down potential
campaign donors in exchange for official actions.

       To assist you on the long march to American-style democracy,
I have asked my friend Harold Ickes to serve as my personal envoy
to the People s Liberation Army. There is no one in the United
States today better equipped to navigate the complex web of
campaign finance laws. If there is a loophole to be found, Harold
Ickes will bore right through it. And, besides, he s out of a job and
needs the work.

 (Point to Harold in audience. If appropriate, ask him to stand
up.)

       Yes, my friends, the future of democracy here in the Middle
Kingdom is as bright as the Hong Kong skyline. And, indeed, I look
forward to the day when the People s Liberation Army establishes
its own political action committee to dole out $5,000 contributions
to pliant politicians of every party.

       I would be remiss if I did not extend congratulations to those
unsung heroes, the nameless Chinese bureaucrats who have
stubbornly refused to turn over bank records to the imperialist
swine masquerading as congressional campaign-finance
 investigators. The ruthless efficiency with which your bureaucracy
has stonewalled the Thompson and Burton investigations in
Congress is a continuing source of inspiration for my own
 administration s initiative to reinvent government.

     So, President Li Peng, Premier Zhu Rongji, John Huang, Charlie
Trie and all our friends who have either pleaded the Fifth or fled the
country, as an expression of our deep appreciation, Vice President
Gore and I would like to make this commitment to you today. We
commit to invite you to every  donor maintenance event
sponsored by the Democratic National Committee during the next
election cycle. It s been our experience that Buddhist temples
provide a wonderful setting for these important  non-fundraising
opportunities.

 (Optional: But of course, we d have to fly you to Los Angeles,
since any Chinese citizen walking into a Buddhist temple here in
Beijing would likely be thrown in jail.)

 Today I stand before you, a man of limited means and unlimited
ambition.

 (Feign sincerity, squint eyes and bite lip.)

       I am reminded of the words of your late great leader Chairman
Mao, who sagely observed,  Water too pure breeds no fish.

       The same, of course, can be said for politics: Politics too pure
breeds no graft, no petty selfishness, no opportunities for
corruption. And, in the end, where would that get us? I d be back in
Little Rock and you#d have a bunch of defective rockets.

 (Pause, wait for applause.)




- -

------------------------------

End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #69
**********************************