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utah-firearms-digest      Wednesday, May 27 1998      Volume 02 : Number 062




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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:19:09 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ron Paul at it again: Action Item -Forwarded

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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:44:12 -0400
From: Nancy <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mori Ante Cedere!
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Posted to rkba-co by Nancy <[e-mail]>
- -----------------------
Fire up the fax, email, phones and pens ....time for some action.

Nancy
===========> Subject:
>          Paul-Bearer
>     Date:
>          Fri, 22 May 1998 17:00:46 -0700
>     From:
>          Rick DeStephens <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To:
>          Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona <[e-mail]>
>       To:
>          [e-mail]
>
>
> I was listening to the "BQ View" on 1280 this afternoon.  Seems TX Rep,
> Ron Paul has written some legislation saying that the SS number shall not
> be used for any goofy ID and database crap except for that which is
> directly involved with the social security stuff.
>
> He has but one (1) co-sponsor.
>
> I have already called our reps.  Perhaps we can spread this out around
> the country, Nancy?
>
> Rick


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Date: Tue, 26 May 98 07:31:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: First, Atrocity, Then Gun Control Laws (Or Visa Versa???)

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:07:26 -0400
From: Patricia Neill <[e-mail]>

NOTE: We have all observed that immediately prior to the passage of major
gun control legislation, at least one major firearm tragedy occurs -- or
major tragedies involving the deaths of children -- which conveniently
motivate passage of legislation which, under less hysterical conditions,
might otherwise be weighed and considered more carefully (or at least
considered Constitutionally) instead of being passed in typical
Congressional knee-jerk fashion.

For those of you who were wondering what legislation was critically pending
that required some kind of series of tragic deaths in order to motivate the
Congress and outrage the public into their herd mentality, here it is
below: planned and on the agenda by May 6th, 1998. This proposed
legislation was ready for introduction to Congress WELL BEFORE:

1. The Ocean City, Maryland suicide of a 12-year-old (suffocation) on
05/14/98 - ("Suicide Note Refers to `South Park'");

2. The student shooting death at Lincoln County High School in
Fayetteville, Tennessee on 05/19/98;

3. The Onalaska, Washington student suicide on school bus on 05/21/98 -
("In Washington, a school-bus kidnapping ends with a student's suicide");

4. The Springfield, Oregon shooting of 05/22/98 - (articles too numerous to
list individually);

5. The St. Charles, Missouri incident, also on 05/22/98 - ("Police say
three sixth graders plotted to kill classmates");

6. The San Bernardino, California student suicide at school also on
05/22/98 - ("Teen-ager shoots himself in head on high school campus"); and

7. The arrest of an Elmira, New York postal worker who was threatening to
bring a rocket launcher to work - also on 05/22/98 - ("Worker Charged Over
Rocket Launcher")

ALL of these news articles were posted in their entirety on the
Ignition-Point list at the time they occurred. You listees should be
observing these trends and connecting the dots. If anyone needs reposts of
any of these aritcles, send me a note and I'll gladly forward them to you.

Here is the pending gun control legislation, announced in a press
conference on May 6th, 1998:

Source: http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/may22-98.htm

REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTHY TO INTRODUCE COMPREHENSIVE LEGISLATION TO KEEP
FIREARMS OUT OF THE HANDS OF CHILDREN

At a press conference on Wednesday, May 6, 1998, Sarah Brady and
Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY-4) were joined by four mothers who
have lost a child to gun violence.

At that time, Representative McCarthy announced that she will be
introducing, in the next few weeks, a comprehensive piece of legislation
that will address all areas of concern about children's access to firearms.

The Children's Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1998 will:

Offer a comprehensive approach to the issue of children and guns,
emphasizing responsibility, safety and education;

Strengthen the law prohibiting children from having access to handguns;

Impose criminal penalties upon adults who fail to keep loaded firearms out
of the reach of children;

Require manufacturers to make safer, more child-resistant guns;

Provide federal support for development of educational materials and gun
violence prevention curriculum for children; and

Help identify and prosecute those who are selling guns to our children.

This legislation will be introduced in mid-June. Please call your
Representative and demand that he/she
co-sponsor this important legislation.

- -----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material
is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research
and educational purposes only.
- -----------------------

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 07:31:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting

by MAUREEN SIELAFF
[e-mail]
The Vigo Examiner

SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his
Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel
had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription drug
called Prozac. This particular drug has factored in almost all wild
shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years. Eli Lilly of
Indianapolis, Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this
drug is alleged to induce in patients.

Prozac is commonly given to youth as a treatment for depression. In
the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A. Opler, M.D.,
Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for Prozac: apathy;
hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid reactions,
antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts.

The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by
Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and Company of
Indianapolis, Indiana. It was last revised on June 12, 1997, and can be
found in each package of Prozac.

Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in
the U.S., 12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety,
nervousness, or insomnia. In similar trials for those diagnosed with
obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the
patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%.

Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of patients
treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite. However, only rarely
have patients discontinued treatment with Prozac because of this symptom.
Those diagnosed with OCD, again, came in at a higher rate of 17%.

Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills,
hemorrhage and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and
vomiting, agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep
disorder, ear pain, taste perversion, and tininitus.

The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression improvement
scale based on two studies showed that of those who took 40mg of Prozac 0%
were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no change, 28% were minimally
improved, 27% much improved, and 12% very much improved. Meaning that of
those tested only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking this
drug.

Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to
this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear
to correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership. But when the
percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the
percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern
emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from
depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal
rages.

When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated several bombs that he had
constructed were discovered. With a ban on bombs already in place, he
nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might
well have taken to school instead of guns. So the question arises, if
guns had been banned like bombs, would the danger have been averted?
The unmistakable answer is that it would not. And with the shootings
correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac, why is
the public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while efforts
are directed instead toward something that shows no correlation?

On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after
finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised
ventures into the woods. The next day, Wednesday, May 20th, 15 year old
Kip Kinkel showed up at Thurston High School with a dangerous attitude
and a newly purchased stolen gun that he had gotten from another student.
A security guard caught wind of the arrangement and the two boys were
arrested, booked, and then released to their parents.

On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after shooting
his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and proceeded
to the high school. He walked into the cafeteria and fired off 51 rounds
of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the students and
injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14 through 18.
The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a 17 year old
wrestler, tackled Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help
restrain him.

Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of
his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis. Gun control advocates
are outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens.
Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about
on a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do. Still other's paint
a depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end
of their ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his
unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should
have been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal.

A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun confiding
in him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with his son.
The friend stated that the boy's parent sought counseling and attempted to
maintain a very structured home life. "As parents, they just kept trying."

The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon National
Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the Guard's Youth
Challenge Program. An official with the Guard stated that Mr. Kinkel seemed
at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his son "mainstreamed
back into school." The Guard YCP takes in children who "are on the razor's
edge, ready to fall on the dark side." Obviously Kip Kinkel was already
over the edge.

His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was irrationally
ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, the school
nurse, school management, and police officials. Most had the attitude that
he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned. But how could this be?

All were well aware of the boys bizarre behavioral patterns. Although they
might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can follow up with one
story or another of comments and actions that definitely describe a boy that
is anything but "average".

Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with drugs
that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits than the
problems they have. You name the attitude and there is a drug to supposedly
help or cure it.

It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be effective;
getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives. It may be
time we rise and help our children through productive activities and quit
drugging them senseless.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com
Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner.
You will recieve one to three of our top stories or editorials
each day. Send your subscription request, and all other
communication to [e-mail].




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns

As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on
hospitals and gun bans on Saturday.  I was quoted in this article - or to
be more precise, misquoted.

I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to
or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles.  What is true is that a nurse
who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at
work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security.

Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another
(female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting
room".  He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically
ill people.

I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a
correction.  In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight.

Sarah Thompson



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns

As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on
hospitals and gun bans on Saturday.  I was quoted in this article - or to
be more precise, misquoted.

I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to
or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles.  What is true is that a nurse
who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at
work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security.

Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another
(female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting
room".  He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically
ill people.

I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a
correction.  In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight.

Sarah Thompson



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 98 18:24:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: More on Here it Comes

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:59:13 -0400
From: Patricia Neill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More on Here it Comes

Fwd from June. Thanks!

>>If I was just a little bit more paranoid, I'd be
>>forced to suspect that kids are being hypnotically
>>programmed to perform these acts as a prelude to
>>a total gun ban.

>>What perfect circumstances to demand a gun ban.

It's funny, but I was thinking something very much along those lines as I
watched my local 'news' this morning...seems there was a 'hostage
situation' at a local KFC last nite....lots of footage of SWAT cops
crouching, ready to storm in...but it all looked suspiciously staged...

And the 'hostage situation' turned out to be this:  some guy came in
to the KFC at closing time wielding a gun, demanding money...the manager
'bravely' bats him with a broom handle, and then she and the two
employees still at work lock themselves in a storage room, from where
they call the police...so it was never a case of the intruder actually
holding these people...after a COUPLE OF HOURS of the SWAT team taking
over the neighborhood, banning patrons of other restaurants and a bowling
alley from leaving (thereby conveniently eliminating eyewitnesses), after
a police dog failed in its attempt to jump over the counter in the front
of the KFC (one suspects Fido had one too many helpings of the Colonel's
Special Recipe...), our brave boys in black were forced to actually go in
themselves to find....nothing...except 3 KFC employees locked in a
storage room...

Seems the gun-wielding intruder had just turned around and walked out the
door after the 3 employees locked themselves into the store room....

The whole 'story' seemed strangely benign...tho wielding a gun, the guy
allows himself to be batted with a broomstick, allows the 3 KFC personnel
to lock themselves in the store room, and then apparantly turned around
and walked out without taking anything...

As I said, the whole thing had an aura of a staged event...especially
since the news cameras just happened to be there to get closeup shots of
the SWAT team a la "Cops"...

And as I watched it this morning, I was thinking "Was this staged to give
a pretense to 'something should be done about all these guns' arguments?"

BTW, the 'news' was all aglow with praise for the 'good job' the police
did, conveniently glossing over the fact the perp got away, and the cops
don't have a clue to who/where he is...supposedly...

June  ;-)
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
           A smile is a curved line that sets things straight.
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*

                                    /\
                                   .\/
                                 .'
                           Q   .'
                           |-+'
                          / \           --ahjt


                        Go fly a kite!  It's fun.
*========================================================================*
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- -

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Date: Tue, 26 May 98 18:24:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: 1st Gun Confiscation ! - With No Crime Committed

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:25:49 -0700
From: Ed Wolfe <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

15-year-old charged, father's guns seized after teacher threatened
Associated Press, 05/26/98 11:20

LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) - Skittish after a wave of school
shootings, police arrested a 15-year-old boy and seized more than 20
guns legally owned by his father after the boy showed a teacher a
drawing of someone being shot.

The Pinelands Regional High School sophomore was charged with making
terroristic threats against the 35-year-old teacher Friday. Fearful that
the boy had access to them, police seized the weapons - including two
AK-47s - and more than 100 rounds of ammunition as a precaution.

The father had the appropriate ownership documents for the weapons and
was not charged, police said.

``There has to be a concern in the wake of everything going on around
the country,'' said police Detective Robert F. Knapp, referring to last
week's schools shooting in Springfield, Ore., and others that preceded it.

Neither the boy's name nor the teacher's name were released.
The teacher told police the boy showed her ``a handwritten drawing of a
person being killed at gunpoint,'' according to police reports. While in
class, the boy had showed his teacher the drawing and asked what she
thought of it.

The drawing depicted a male victim in the crosshairs of a rifle scope
saying ``Help.'' Another figure in the drawing said ``You're dead.''
The boy had behavior problems in school and ``past incidents of
aggressive behavior,'' Knapp said.

In addition, the boy had written a fairy tale in his English class that
included a graphic murder, said Tish Steward, a math teacher at the
school who is president of the Pinelands Teachers' Association.

``To tell you the truth, I'd be very disturbed,'' said Steward. ``It was
very frightening to this particular person.''

The boy, who was released to his parents, was scheduled to appear
Tuesday in Ocean County Family Court.
- --
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/146/15_year_old_charged__father_s_guns_.htm



- -

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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:58:36 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: More offensive cartoons....

Check out http://www.salonmagazine.com/comics/

If you're not reading this Wednesday, go to the Wednesday "cartoonist",
Keith Knight.

Comments may be sent to [e-mail]

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

- -

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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:54:28 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: For Sale -Forwarded

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To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: For Sale
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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

[If anyone is looking for a real gem, I came across this ad.] --Ken

1776 Constitution for sale. Inherited from original owner. Hasn't been
used for years, but can be easily restored to its original condition by
extermination of the rats which have taken up residence under the hood
and the removal of useless accessories which were added by a long series
of unethical mechanics who saw the prospect of making more money if it
continually drifted to the right or the left than if the integrity of
its original design was retained. Truly must be seen to be appreciated.
Must be appreciated to be truly seen.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:02:00 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tom Lantos & 2,000 Ak47's  -Forwarded

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Subject: Remember those 2000 Ak47's
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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------

Topic: White Water

The Secret Scandal -- Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring

Washington Weekly
5/10/98

                   The Secret Scandal

               Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring


Going back to 1985, Linda and Victor Huang have repeatedly donated money
to the political campaigns of California Congressman Tom Lantos and his
New Hampshire son-in-law Dick Swett. In 1996, Linda Huang was arrested in
a plot to smuggle 2,000 Chinese AK-47s into the United States in violation
of the federal ban on assault weapons. Arrested together with Linda Huang
were seven Chinese-American residents of the Bay Area of California.
Federal prosecutors in San Francisco also sought the help of China to
prosecute seven high-ranking Chinese officials in the arms smuggling plot.
The Chinese officials were all part of the state-run Norinco and Poly
Technologies arms companies, implicated by U.S. intelligence in the export
of missiles to Pakistan and Iran.=20

Before the arrests, the head of Poly Technologies, Wang Jun, met in the
White House with President Bill Clinton. Instrumental in arranging the
meeting was one Charlie Trie.=20

The participation of Linda Huang in a drug smuggling ring sponsored by the
People's Republic of China caused an uproar in the Chinese dissident
community in California. It turns out that the Huangs have hosted leading
dissidents for extended periods of time. It is now suspected that they did
so on behalf of Chinese intelligence in order to infiltrate and spy on the
Chinese dissident movement in the U.S.=20

This brings us back to Tom Lantos. On the House Government Oversight and
Reform Committee he has been instrumental in blocking the investigation
into illegal Chinese donations to the Democratic National Committee and to
the White House. He has done so by (1) preventing the immunization of
witnesses with knowledge of illegal money transfers, (2) by attempting to
discredit veteran FBI agent Jack Wickman who retired rather than comply
with an unprecedented DOJ demand that he name a secret China source on
illegal donations, and (3) by viciously attacking Chairman Dan Burton and
witnesses appearing before the Committee.=20

The White House has now shown its gratitude by appointing Lantos'
son-in-law Dick Swett to ambassador of Denmark. The heavy baggage carried
by Swett, however, means that Senate confirmation is far from assured. In
fact, it seems unlikely. First, some Senators find him unqualified for the
job. Second, during his 1996 bid for the U.S. Senate, Dick Swett violated
campaign finance laws. He refused to pay the fine. Not until last week,
when his Senate confirmation appeared in trouble, did he pay the $65,000
fine for his violation.=20

The mainstream media is obsessed with Dan Burton's "scumbag" remark and
his release of edited tapes of Webster Hubbell's prison conversations.
This may be grounds for his removal, the free press claims. Yet donations
to a member of his committee who defends the indefensible and assails the
unassailable from a Chinese arms smuggling ring appears to have slipped
through the cracks among our fine investigative press. Could that be
because Tom Lantos is a Democrat?=20

[An Internet sleuth, who wishes to remain anonymous, contributed to this
report]


 Published in the May 11, 1998 issue of The Washington Weekly. Copyright =
=A9
1998 The Washington
        Weekly (http://www.federal.com). Reposting permitted with this
message intact.=20






- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:04:52 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded

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From: Richard Hartman <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: Get an early start on summer vacation!
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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could
you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and
security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if
someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The
threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every
back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the
_law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor
of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an
outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune
systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the disease.

Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We
should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every
faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack
a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to
stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could
refocus on education.

RLH

- -----
<excerpted under fair use>
     KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of
McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's
only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to
class.
     Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board
member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents
north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to
class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in
school three weeks ago.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:12:52 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded

At 01:04 PM 5/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could
>you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and
>security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if
>someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The
>threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every
>back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the
>_law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor
>of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an
>outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune
>systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the
disease.
    Well up to here, we agree....

>Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We
>should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every
>faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack
>a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to
>stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could
>refocus on education.
    Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to,
carry concealed.  But _required_?
That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties.
Just as people have the right to bear arms, they also have the right to
choose not to.  That's what living in a free society is about.
    Besides, how would you enforce it?  What standards of proficiency would
you require?  Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training?  Who would
bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis,
shoot a student or other faculty member?  My kids already miss far too many
days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having
"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and
any other excuse they can come up with to not teach.  I don't want the kids
to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range.
    And teachers are not perfect.  Some of them probably would not even meet
the requirements for CCW.
    I'd rather have teachers who are at least proficient in English, math,
history and science, in addition to whatever their area of "expertise" is.
If they're proficient with firearms, so much the better, but I'm not
willing to require, or pay for, teachers to carry firearms.

><excerpted under fair use>
>     KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of
>McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's
>only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to
>class.
>     Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board
>member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents
>north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to
>class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in
>school three weeks ago.

    More socialist idiocy.  It's a basic principle of American law that you
punish only the _guilty_.  If a kid threatens violence, you can arrest him,
suspend him, search him, or ban him from the premises.  But you don't
punish everyone else at the school.  And you don't punish his parents by
confiscating all of their firearms either.

    The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may
finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that
are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they
ought to be just abolished.  (Private schools, of course, _could_ require
CCW as a condition of employment, although doing so would still raise a
host of difficult issues to resolve.)

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:59:53 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: FEAR: Justices to rule on whether officers must tell how to get property back -Forwarded

- --------------E2F1A6643DB4F336CBF50BFA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A recent (5/5/1998) article in the Los Angeles Times, titled "High Court to
Hear Property Seizure Case; Law: Justices to rule on whether officers
must tell  innocent homeowners how to get their valuables  back. Issue
stems from a botched West Covina raid", says that the Supreme Court
has agreed to hear a case that grew out of a faulty police raid in West
Covina. The article says in part,

                   "The case, to be heard in the fall, renews the dispute
between the U.S.
                    appeals court in California and the high court over the scope
of
                    constitutional rights.

                       Last year, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that
the city
                    of West Covina violated the constitutional rights of a local
couple when
                    it failed to clearly tell them how they could recover $2,469 in
cash
                    taken from their home.

                       The case began in May 1993, when Lawrence and
Clara Perkins returned
                    home to find their doors damaged, their belongings in
disarray and their
                    cash savings missing from a locked closet. They also found
a notice,
                    which included the name and phone number of a detective,
saying that
                    their house had been searched by West Covina police under
a warrant
                    issued by a municipal judge."

(The cops were looking for information on a fellow that used to rent from
the Perkins.)

Perkins tried to get information at the court house on how to get his
property back but instead got a big run-around. For example, he was told
that he needed the search warrant number but they couldn't give him that
because the "warrant was sealed".

The city attorney said he just didn't try hard enough;

                    "It's easy to do. There is an adequate remedy, and he didn't
follow
                    it," said Priscilla F. Slocum, a Pasadena lawyer who
represented the
                    city. "This is a case of a person who halfheartedly tried to
get his
                    money back, made one more try and then gave up."

Well, there you go -- all you people whining about the governement
stealing your property and not giving it back, it is your fault. You are just
not trying hard enough to get it back!

We must wait to see if the Supreme Court agrees with that infallible logic.

[Posted by Leon Felkins on May 27, 1998]
- --
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 "Forfeiture:" http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/politics/forfeit.html
 -- Email: [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"[T]o live outside the law, you must be honest," -- Bob Dylan



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:49:44 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded

On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:

>    Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to,
>carry concealed.  But _required_?
>That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties.

Not at all.  There are any number of requirements imposed with
teaching in a government run school--or any other job.  We require
(supposedly) teachers to be proficent in any number of things not
directly part of their job.  EG, math and science teachers must be
proficient in written and spoken english.  Before you say that is
obvious and clearly necessary to their job, go take a math or science
course at a major university which does not impose this requirement.
You can learn math or science from someone who is far from proficient
in english.  It's tough, but it can be done.

More closely related to requiring CCW are requirements that teachers
be trained in first aid including CPR.  Teachers, especially grade
school teachers, are more than just instructors.  They are given, and
accept, a high degree of responsibility for their students safety
during the day. Requiring a knowledge of first aid is only prudent.  A
similar argument may be made for carrying guns.

>    Besides, how would you enforce it?

Just as any other requirement is enforced.  Testing and certification.

>What standards of proficiency would
>you require?

Somewhere between a current CCW and POST certification I should think.

>Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training?

The cost of all are insignificant compared to the cost of the college
education already required to teach.  The cost of that education (and
much of the continuing education required) is born by teachers
already, although schools could help cover those costs if they chose.

>Who would
>bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis,
>shoot a student or other faculty member?

The same entity that bears the liability if a teacher, acting in good
faith during a crisis, should inflict injury administering first aid.

>My kids already miss far too many
>days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having
>"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and
>any other excuse they can come up with to not teach.  I don't want the kids
>to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range.

Even cops are not required to practice shooting on a weekly basis.  If
you can pass the annual competancy tests in shooting without practice,
so be it.  If you have to practice every night, that is your problem.

>    And teachers are not perfect.  Some of them probably would not even meet
>the requirements for CCW.

There are doubtless people who would like to teach who do not meet the
requirments for English, history, etc.  There are people who would
love to be doctors but can't pass required exams to get into or
graduate medical school or maybe even pass the boards once they
graduate.  If you don't meet the requirements for a given profession,
trade, or occupation you better find a different one.

IF we decide that government school teachers must be proficient in
basic self defense using a gun in order to be entrusted with our
children for 8 hours a day, then it is their responsibility to do so.

I personnaly wouldn't require it just because there are so many
teachers who are good teachers who would likely have trouble with it.
But I would allow and even encourage via financial incentive, teachers
to become proficient and CCW.

>    The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may
>finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that
>are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they
>ought to be just abolished.

Amen.

- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men,
 undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Thomas Paine

- -

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End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #62
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