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From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest)
To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #35
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utah-firearms-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 035
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:31:18 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
Subject: Lon's Lawyers.....We're made to pay 'em!! -Forwarded
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Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:55:42 -0700
From: "C. F. Inston" <hlmtfish@rmi.net>
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- -----------------------
8:46 PM 3/13/1998
Coalition supports FBI sniper
Top law officials fear `chill' of Ruby Ridge
By KIM MURPHY, Los Angeles Times
BOISE, Idaho -- Top law enforcement officials stepped up in
defense of FBI sharpshooter Lon Horiuchi, arguing Friday that
manslaughter charges he faces in connection with the siege at Ruby
Ridge threaten to undermine federal law enforcement efforts across
the country.
"It is impossible to imagine a more chilling circumstance than the
one presented by the instant effort to prosecute," a coalition of
former U.S. attorneys general, joining the U.S. Department of Justice
and the International Association of Chiefs of Police, argued in
papers submitted to the federal court in Idaho where Horiuchi faces
trial.
The prosecution, the first time an FBI agent has faced state criminal
charges stemming from a federal law enforcement operation, "could
well include endangering the life of the president of the United
States in the moment when sharpshooters responsible for
protecting that life hestitate to consider what state they are in when
evaluating a threat to the president," the officials said.
U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge will rule in the next few weeks on
Horiuchi's argument that he is immune from state prosecution
because he was carrying out his federal law enforcement duties in
1992 when he fired the shot that killed Vicki Weaver, 42, wife of
anti-govern-ment activist Randy Weaver.
In a hearing Friday, Horiuchi was surrounded by lawyers retained
by the Justice Department, which has said its own investigations
concluded that the FBI sniper acted properly acted properly when
he shot the woman as she stood holding her infant daughter just
inside the door of the Weaver cabin.
Horiuchi has said he was aiming at Kevin Harris, a Weaver friend
who was believed to have shot at federal marshals in a firefight the
previous day that killed Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan. Harris,
he said, had pointed his gun at a law enforcement helicopter flying
overhead and was running back into the cabin to take a position
Horiuchi believed would further threaten law enforcement agents
outside. The bullet he fired killed Vicki Weaver, then struck Harris,
wounding him.
Denise Woodbury, the prosecutor in Boundary County, has
charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter, arguing that the
sharpshooter was grossly negligent in firing without ascertaining
who else might be in the bullet's path.
But lawyers for Horiuchi argued Friday that long-running legal
precedent grants federal law enforcement officers immunity from
state prosecution when they are carrying out a federal operation, as
long as they reasonably believe they are acting within the scope of
their duties.
"There is no question that Vicki Weaver's death was a very tragic
and regrettable event which everyone wishes had not occurred, but
it is equally clear her death was an accident," said Deputy Assistant
Attorney General Donald Remy.
Adam Hoffinger, the sharpshooter's counsel, said the FBI agent
should not be made to stand trial for the state of Idaho's grievances
against the federal government.
"The prosecution effectively wants to try the federal government
but wants Lon Horiuchi to pay the penalty, and that, your honor, is
manifestly and profoundly unfair," Hoffinger said.
Idaho prosecutors said the question of whether Horiuchi acted
reasonably should be up to a jury to decide. Stephen Yagman, a Los
Angeles civil rights lawyer who has been appointed a special
deputy prosecutor in the case, said the federal government should
not be allowed to rely on an immunity defense.
"In their argument, the U.S. government is King John, (and)
somehow the FBI is the sheriff of Nottingham ... and because the
king is immune and the king is there by divine right, the king can't
be sued," Yagman said. "The government of the United States of
America ... supplanted the king of England with a democratically
elected government."
- --
Charles 'Chuck' Inston
Copyrighted material contained within this document is used in
compliance with the United States Code, Title 17, Section 107,
"for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching"
For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to:
Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
with the word Help in the body of the message
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:48:27 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-gunners and the 'lympics
At 04:44 PM 3/4/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
><<<RANT MODE ON>>>
>
>OK, so now the 'lympics are going to be used as the excuse to restrict
>CCW. Un-friggggin-believable. These people campaigned for the games
>becuase Utah was such a great place and we wanted to show it off to
>the world. Only now that they have them, they are suddenly embarrased
>by our liquar laws, our mormons, our history, and our guns. Hell,
>seems what they meant was the landscape is fine but there is
>absolutely nothing about our culture worth showing off. I admit we
>aint perfect, but some of us like it here a whole lot more than other
>places we've been.
>
>Below is an article from today's DesNews wherein Beattie, Steiner, and
>even our "allie" Bishop all agree that CCW will be limited prior to
>2002 to accomodate the games and the international community. My
>attitude is if they don't like our mormons, history, or guns they can
>stay the hell home.
>
><<<RANT MODE OFF>>>
Hi Charles,
Well, I personally think Utah's liquor laws, drug laws, pornography laws,
prostitution laws and medical laws (to name a few) stink. I think our gun
laws could be better - i.e. Vermont carry. That being said....
I agree. If the Olympics don't like our culture or our laws, they can take
their stinking, UN style, media extravaganza and hold the Olympics in some
"enlightened" place. I'm sure there's adequate snow in Murmansk. It would
be good for the rest of the enslaved world (and that's EVERY place that has
gun control) to see that ordinary citizens can be trusted with guns.
Besides, I don't want to PAY for the show!
So, since you're far more in tune with the rest of Utah culture than I'll
ever be, how do you propose we register our objections - and get others to
do the same?
Sarah
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:11:46 -0700
From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Anti-gunners and the 'lympics
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com> posted:
>Hi Charles,
>
>Well, I personally think Utah's liquor laws, drug laws, pornography laws,
>prostitution laws and medical laws (to name a few) stink. I think our gun
>laws could be better - i.e. Vermont carry. That being said....
All agreed.
>
>I agree. If the Olympics don't like our culture or our laws, they can take
>their stinking, UN style, media extravaganza and hold the Olympics in some
>"enlightened" place. I'm sure there's adequate snow in Murmansk. It would
>be good for the rest of the enslaved world (and that's EVERY place that has
>gun control) to see that ordinary citizens can be trusted with guns.
>Besides, I don't want to PAY for the show!
Agreed again.
>
>So, since you're far more in tune with the rest of Utah culture than I'll
>ever be, how do you propose we register our objections - and get others to
>do the same?
We have to decide what is really important to us and realize where we
can find friends and allies. For example, while I think Utah's liquar
laws could use some drastic changes, I'm opposed to changing them just
to appease the 'lympics or to granting some kind of exemption (party
tent permit) to them. I think if we are going to change a law it
should be done with deliberation and should be equally applied to
everyone. If our laws on alcohol are good enough for the sheeple of
Utah, they are good enough for our "guests".
I also realize there are many people and groups, some of whom carry
significant political pull who are opposed to changing our alcohol
laws for the games. The Eagle Forum springs to mind. I think we
could gain strides by forming alliances with such groups under the
general banner of not changing ANY of our laws for the olympics. They
knew our laws when they granted us the bid, they can live with them
now. We lobby not just on guns, but that NO laws should be changed to
"accomodate" the olympics. Let them see how we really live, what our
culture really is. What are we embarrased about? Didn't we campaign
to get the games based on what a great place SLC is? If it is great
enough to get the games, why do we need to change it now that they are
coming?
We (you and I and other libertarian types) put asside our desire to
change alcohol laws and agree to support the Eagle Forum types if they
support us in keeping gun laws from being changed. I think we can
also join with the enviro types and others opposed to converting
wasteland (ie wilderness) into olympic venues. We oppose any kind of
rash, non-studied action (Olympic venues should suffer the same pain
any private developer would) if they support us in keeping gun laws
from being changed for the games.
And then we actively lobby for and support greater legislative
oversight of the SLOC. We keep enough arrows headed their way they
don't have time to lobby to hard on the gun issue.
How's that for starters?
The question is, do we all care enough about our gun rights to put
asside other differences and work with those we would normally fight?
Finally, I think we have to be willing to concede at some point that
olympic venues may be able to be declared "secure" sites and prohibit
guns, BUT ONLY if they have secure storage facilities for legal guns.
- --
Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
<chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that
we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall
have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other
terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American
.. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the
federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever
remain, in the hands of the People." -- Tench Coxe - 1788.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:50:41 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-gunners and the 'lympics
At 02:11 PM 3/16/98 -0700, Charles Hardy wrote:
>We have to decide what is really important to us and realize where we
>can find friends and allies. For example, while I think Utah's liquar
>laws could use some drastic changes, I'm opposed to changing them just
>to appease the 'lympics or to granting some kind of exemption (party
>tent permit) to them. I think if we are going to change a law it
>should be done with deliberation and should be equally applied to
>everyone. If our laws on alcohol are good enough for the sheeple of
>Utah, they are good enough for our "guests".
>
>I also realize there are many people and groups, some of whom carry
>significant political pull who are opposed to changing our alcohol
>laws for the games. The Eagle Forum springs to mind. I think we
>could gain strides by forming alliances with such groups under the
>general banner of not changing ANY of our laws for the olympics. They
>knew our laws when they granted us the bid, they can live with them
>now. We lobby not just on guns, but that NO laws should be changed to
>"accomodate" the olympics. Let them see how we really live, what our
>culture really is. What are we embarrased about? Didn't we campaign
>to get the games based on what a great place SLC is? If it is great
>enough to get the games, why do we need to change it now that they are
>coming?
>
>We (you and I and other libertarian types) put asside our desire to
>change alcohol laws and agree to support the Eagle Forum types if they
>support us in keeping gun laws from being changed. I think we can
>also join with the enviro types and others opposed to converting
>wasteland (ie wilderness) into olympic venues. We oppose any kind of
>rash, non-studied action (Olympic venues should suffer the same pain
>any private developer would) if they support us in keeping gun laws
>from being changed for the games.
>
>And then we actively lobby for and support greater legislative
>oversight of the SLOC. We keep enough arrows headed their way they
>don't have time to lobby to hard on the gun issue.
>
>How's that for starters?
>
>The question is, do we all care enough about our gun rights to put
>asside other differences and work with those we would normally fight?
>
>Finally, I think we have to be willing to concede at some point that
>olympic venues may be able to be declared "secure" sites and prohibit
>guns, BUT ONLY if they have secure storage facilities for legal guns.
- and ONLY IF they accept liability should one of us be killed or injured
by a criminal!
I agree with you. The most important thing is to make the Olympics (and
all other international agencies) respect the sovreignty of the U.S. and
the State of Utah. I'm certainly willing to work with anyone who thinks
the same way. And besides, while I don't agree with the Eagle Forum on a
lot of things, they've been good firearms allies.
So, folks - start making your views known! Recruit whomever you think will
be willing to help. And let Rob Bishop, Brian Judy, the NRA, GOA, USSC and
our so-called "representatives" know what you think - and what you'd like
them to DO.
The following USSC Board members have volunteered to have their contact info
made public. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse
their open-door policy.
Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com
Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w),
73214.3115@compuserve.com
Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net
Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (w), 546-2275 (h)
Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com (I prefer e-mail to phone
calls when possible).
Joe Venus, 571-2223
I assume Rob Bishop can be contacted through the Utah Republican Party, and
Brian Judy should be reachable through the NRA.
And BTW, Rob Bishop's comments reflected HIS views only. To the best of my
knowledge, the Board of USSC has not yet taken an official position.
There's a USSC Board meeting this evening at 6:30 PM at Crossroads of the
West, 7 N. Main St., Kaysville. Meetings are open to all interested parties.
Sarah (for myself)
Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
same
object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is
their right,
it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards
for their
future security..." The Declaration of
Independence
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:37:01 -0700
From: Will Thompson <will@phbtsus.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-gunners and the 'lympics
Charles Hardy wrote:
>
> Finally, I think we have to be willing to concede at some point that
> olympic venues may be able to be declared "secure" sites and prohibit
> guns, BUT ONLY if they have secure storage facilities for legal guns.
>
An attempt at putting this into words, before going to the USSC meeting
and trying to say it....
Since NFA, maybe before, we have looked to the future and talked about
how we may have to concede, or how we may have to accept a "less than
perfect" deal, because we can't get a better one.
As a result of NFA we have had only _one_ significant improvement in
firearms that I'm aware of, that being the Glock.
GCA-68, CopKillerBullet ban, Plastic Gun ban, "assault weapon" ban,
Brady, CCW "permits", Instant Check, Lautenburg, etc. have each
been "give ups" of some sort or another, driven by those who _know_
more about the political realities involved.
Enough.
There has to be a better way.
From here on, I propose that gun owners tell the NRA, the paper
punchers,
the collectors, the animal killers and the rest of the mild mannered,
look nice to the newpapers bunch to set down and shut up, we've let them
give away our rights in the name of political expediency for long
enough.
No, I don't think we have to be willing to concede "Richard". We should
go on the offensive. Make them look at their choices. All or nothing.
Maybe even gain something.
er....
well...?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 08:05:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
Forward from Janalee Tobias. It is interesting that while the USSC
succeeded in increasing the difficulty of getting initiatives that
might encroach on hunting, it did nothing to stop greatly eased
referenda for medication of water supplies, including all of SL
County in one fell swoop. Aren't the people of Utah already too
docile? Better store water as well as ammunition.
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 05:27:24 -0700
From: GunFlower <gunflower@lgcy.com>
To: lputah@qsicorp.com, discussion@derail.org
Subject: LPU: Fw: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
- ----------
From: EAGLEFLIGHT----"uNITED STATES Theatre Command (David E. Rydel)"
<eagleflt@eagleflt.com>
To: 72113.1673 <72113.1673@compuserve.com>
Subject: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 9:43 AM
To: eagleflt@eagleflt.com
From: ranger@azwest.net
Subject: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:14:25 -0700
Senate Letter on Testimony of Kenneth Goff on Use of Fluorides to Modify
Behavior
The following are reproductions of letters dealing with the use of
fluorides to modify behavior. This is an area that we are continually
investigating. Those who wish hard copies, send a SASE and we will be
glad to send you a copy of the original. This particular page deals
with the knowledge of behavioral modification by the US. Communist
Party in the mid 1950's, relative to this issue. Letter 1 is the
notarized statement of Kenneth Goff, who testified before the Special
Senate Committee on Un-American Activities, October 9, 1939. Letter 2
is a letter from the Congress of the United States, Juliette P. Joray,
Clerk, June 11, 1957, acknowledging the testimony of Kenneth Goff on
October 9, 1939. Note: This would seem to support frequent statements
that [1} the Soviets were using fluorides in the Gulag system in 1940.
It is also interesting that statements have been made indicating U.S.
shipments of fluorides to the Soviet Union of fluorides during the 1940's
and early 1950's.
LETTER 1: [We have capitalized the portion relative to fluorides]
To Whom It May Concern:
I, Oliver Kenneth Goff, was a member of the Communist Party and the
Young Communisty League, from May 2, 1936, to October 9, 1939. During
this period of time, I operated under the alias of John Keats. My
testimony before the Government is incorporated in Volume 9 of the
Un-American Activities Report for the year 1939.
While a member of the Communist Party, I attended a Communist underground
training school outside the city of New Yorkl in the Bues Hall, and 113
East Wells Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The East Wells Street School
operated under the name of the Eugene Debs School. Here, under the tutoring
of Eugene Dennis, M.Sparks, Morris Childs, Jack Kling and others, we were
schooled in the art of revolutionary overthrow of the established Government.
We were trained on how to dismantle and assemble mimeograph machines, to
use for propaganda purposes during the revilution; how to work on guide
wires and fuel lines of airplanes so that they would either burst into
flame or crash to the ground because of lack of control; how to work on
ties and rails to wreck trains; and also THE ART OF POISONING WATER SUPPLIES.
WE DISCUSSED QUITE THOROUGHLY THE FLUORIDATION OF WATER SUPPLIES AND HOW
WE WERE USING IT IN RUSSIA AS A TRANQUILIZER IN THE PRISON CAMPS. THE
LEADERS OF OUR SCHOOL FELT THAT IF IT COULD BE INDUCED INTO THE AMERICAN
WATER SUPPLY, IT WOULD BRING ABOUT A SPIRIT OF LETHARGY IN THE NATION;
WHERE IT WOULD KEEP THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOCILE DURING A STEADY ENCROACHMENT
OF COMMUNISM. WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT KEEPING A STORE OF DEADLY
FLUORIDE NEAR THE WATER RESERVOIR WOULD BE ADVANTAGEOUS DURING THE TIME
OF THE REVOLUTION, AS IT WOULD GIVE US OPPORTUNITY TO DUMP THIS POISON
INTO THE WATER SUPPLY AND EITHER KILL OFF THE POPULATION OR THREATEN THEM
WITH LIQUIDATION, SO THAT THEY WOULD SURRENDER TO OBTAIN FRESH WATER.
We discussed in these schools, the complete art of revolution: the
seizure of the main utilities, such as light, power, gas and water;
but it was felt by the leadership, that if a program of FLUORIDATING
THE WATER COULD BE CARRIED OUT IN THE NATION, IT WOULD GO A LONG WAY
TOWARD THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE REVOLUTION.
The above statements are true.
[Signature] Oliver Kenneth Goff
[Notary Public Stamp and Affirmation, June 22, 1957, Arapahoe Country,
Colorado]
LETTER 2:
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Committee on Un-American Activities
WASHINGTON
June 11, 1957
Mr. C.A.Barden
215 Morgan St
Oberlin, Ohio
Dear Mr. Barden:
This will acknowledge receipt of your metters of April 29 and May 29,
1957, concerning a statement by Oliver Kenneth Goff.
On Monday, October 9, 1939, Oliver Kenneth Goff testified under oath
before the Special Committee on Un-American Activities. In his testimony,
Mr. Goff declared that he joined the Young Communist League in May of 1936
under the assumed name of John Keats. He also declared that he was a member
of the Communist Party/ He declared thast he planned to resign from the
Young Communist League and the Communist Party following his testimony
before the Special Committee on Un-American Activities.
Mr. Goff testified at length concerning his various activities within
the Communist Party. His testimony is contained in Volume 9 of the
Un-American Activities Committee Public Hearings. I regret that I am
unable to send you a copy inasmuch as the supply is completely exhausted.
I regret the delay in replying to your letters which has been due to the
press of Committee business and I hope that the information as given you
in this letter will be of assistance to you.
Sincerely Yours,
[Signature]
Juliette P. Joray
Clerk
Please visit http://www.prospectorsbanqueclub.com
and http://www.eagleflt.com
To receive posts from this list send an E-MAIL to me with the word
"subscribe" in the subject box.
==================================================================
EAGLEFLIGHT
///, ///
\ /, / >. David E. Rydel
\ /, _/ /. *****
\_ /_/ /. uNITED STATES Theatre Command
\__/_ << Voice-248-391-0798
/<<<<<< \_\_ Fax-248-391-6785
/,)^>>_._ \ Alt.Fax-248-391-3528
(/ \\ /\\\ E-MAIL: EAGLEFLT@eagleflt.com
// ````
==============((`=============================================
A VOICE OF THE MILITIA IN NORTH AMERICA
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:11:04 -0700
From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Kirby on guns
[Image]
[Image] [Image] Tuesday, March 17, 1998 [Image] [Image]
Kirby: O.J. and Saddam Could Hit Games, So Pack That Gun
By Robert Kirby
Guns are back in
Utah news again. Yeah,
like they were ever out. If it isn't someone dispatching someone else
in a blaze of glory, it's Karl Malone saying he is itching to go out
in a blaze of glory himself.
Before us now is the issue of guns at the Olympics. Specifically,
who besides the FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF, NSA, SLCPD, UHP and nine dozen
other official and quasi-official law-enforcement organizations
should be allowed to carry guns at the 2002 Games?
Since this is Utah, the answer is ``anybody who even remotely
wants to,'' including your fundamentalist Uncle Earl, who keeps a
copy of the Constitution in his pants and a recoilless rifle in the
trunk of his car.
There is legal precedent for this behavior. If Utahns still
haven't banned concealed heat in church, it stands to reason that we
won't be able to figure out that we shouldn't carry them at the
Olympics, either.
After a recent trip to Los Angeles, I can understand why someone
would want to bring a gun to the Olympics. Granted, there are lots of
reasons you shouldn't. For example:
-- Budweiser is also coming to town. And as it is with driving,
voting, flying and operating on people's brains with a belt sander,
some things just don't mix with alcohol.
-- Nobody in his or her right mind wants an ammunition
manufacturer handing out free sample packs of bullets.
-- Long-winded and stupid debate over a bill proposing 30.06 as
the Official Utah State Caliber would force next year's Legislature
into overtime.
-- It's tough to enforce insultingly high ticket prices on a
low-paid populace that is both fed up and armed.
-- Someone -- particularly anyone who makes eye contact with the
Malone family -- might get shot dead repeatedly, continually and a
lot.
Conversely, reasons why allowing the public to carry concealed
weapons to Olympic venues would be a good idea are . . . well, I
really only have one. As I said, I got it in Los Angeles, a place
where lucid thought could make the endangered-species list if someone
would simply go to the trouble of sticking some feathers on it.
Seriously, Tribune cartoonist Pat Bagley and I bumped into O.J.
Simpson Saturday night in the lobby of the L.A. Airport Hilton.
Trained professionals, all three of us reacted instinctively to the
chance encounter.
A cartoonist, Bagley instinctively reached for his sketch pad. An
ex-cop, my hand went for the gun I no longer carry. A consummate
survivor, O.J. immediately ducked into a side room where he was
scheduled to speak for several thousand dollars, quite possibly on
the subject of human rights.
It was this encounter that made me realize the whole nature of
the Olympics/gun issue. Namely that O.J. and I could meet up with
each other again.
The 2002 Winter Games will no doubt attract a lot of predatory
characters like O.J. to Utah. A short list of possible (and
disturbing) Olympic attendees includes rock drummer Tommy Lee, Ted
Kennedy, Bill Gates, Maury Povitch, Barney, Paula Jones, Elvis
Presley, Dan Rather, Big Foot, and Saddam Hussein. And what about Al
Gore, Boris Yeltsin, Hillary Clinton and the entire cast of Melrose
Place? Oh, and let's not forget tobacco lobbyists and whomever
happens to be in charge of France at the time.
See? If you put the Olympics into the proper perspective, namely
just who all is going to be coming here and lurking around our
children, automobiles and livestock, there really is only one
conclusion: We need those guns.
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- --
Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
<chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." --
Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States (1856-1924).
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:13:42 -0700
From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Visit your cabin often
Looks like if you have a cabin and don't visit frequently, others
are perfectly justified in taking your property. Too bad we have
sworn peace officers behaving this way, however...
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Cedar brothers escape charges of possessing stolen property
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Judge cites lack of evidence for trial
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Last updated 03/18/1998, 11:04 a.m. MT
Associated Press
CEDAR CITY ù Stolen-property charges against two brothers, one
a former police officer, were dismissed following a hearing before
5th District Judge James L. Shumate.
Former Cedar City police detective Ken Stapley, and his
brother, Todd Stapley, were charged with possession of stolen
property last May. Kane County sheriff's officials contended the men
had taken property from a cabin in the county. However, the Stapleys
said they thought the area was abandoned.
According to court records, Todd Stapley came across the cabin
while on a Boy Scout outing in 1992, then told his brother about the
site. The articles taken were an antique sewing machine, a tent and
an air rifle.
In handing down his ruling Tuesday, Shumate declared testimony
against the Stapleys by Ken's ex-wife, Dianne Jacobs Stapley, was
inadmissible because she was Ken Stapley's wife at the time of the
incidents.
Shumate also said there was the question of whether the
Stapleys knew they were taking property that belonged to others. The
man who claimed the property as his had visited the site only three
times from 1989 to 1994 and told the judge it appeared to be
ransacked.
"When you match that with the information from Ken Stapley ù
he said the property was abandoned ù I find no adequate evidence to
go to trial," Shumate said.
"It was meant to be," Ken said following the ruling. "It
should have never happened in the first place. Justice was done."
Charges against two other Cedar City police officers, Dennis
Anderson and Keith Millet, stemming from the incident were dropped
in October. Anderson has retired from the police force. Millet
remains and is working on the Iron-Garfield County Narcotics Task
Force.
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- --
Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
<chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." --
Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States (1856-1924).
- -
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:48:55 -0700
From: Will Thompson <will@phbtsus.com>
Subject: Re: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
SCOTT BERGESON wrote:
>
> Forward from Janalee Tobias. It is interesting that while the USSC
> succeeded in increasing the difficulty of getting initiatives that
> might encroach on hunting, it did nothing to stop greatly eased
> referenda for medication of water supplies, including all of SL
> County in one fell swoop. Aren't the people of Utah already too
> docile? Better store water as well as ammunition.
While I believe that USSC was wrong to support the initiative bill,
I think you give them too much credit. It seems that there were
at least a few other interest groups involved. Also, while I can
understand, if not agree with the reasons USSC would back a bill
relating to the "shooting sports", I really don't see what
organizational interest a gun interest group would have in medication
of water supplies. That would seem to more properly fall under the
purview of the Libertarian Party of Utah, (from whom I heard or saw
nothing regarding this.) or some other umbrella civil rights or
political organization. Unless that was just meant as a tweak to a
set of people involved with USSC....if so, it's a cheap shot and
you might also bear in mind that the only board member who is
likely to read this on this forum voted against supporting the
bill.
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:46:55 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Re: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
At 08:05 AM 3/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Forward from Janalee Tobias. It is interesting that while the USSC
>succeeded in increasing the difficulty of getting initiatives that
>might encroach on hunting, it did nothing to stop greatly eased
>referenda for medication of water supplies, including all of SL
>County in one fell swoop. Aren't the people of Utah already too
>docile? Better store water as well as ammunition.
What did USSC have to do with referenda regarding water fluoridation? I
don't even know what the procedure is for such referenda. It's clearly not
within the scope of a gun organization.
Further, while fluoride can be used to poison water (as can chlorine or
virtually anything else), I know of absolutely no evidence that fluoride in
the levels usually found in water has any tranquilizing or other
neuropsychiatric effects. Anecdotally, I drank fluoridated water most of
life, took fluoride supplements as a child, and I haven't noticed any
change at all since I moved to Utah and started drinking unfluoridated
water. And I doubt anyone would seriously accuse me of being dumbed-down
or docile! <g>
When you're evaluating information, it's always a good idea to consider the
sources.
And BTW, does LPUtah have a position on the right of property owners to
develop their property as they see fit?
Sarah
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 07:41:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:46:55 -0700 S. Thompson wrote:
>What did USSC have to do with referenda regarding water fluoridation? I
>don't even know what the procedure is for such referenda. It's clearly not
>within the scope of a gun organization.
Rather little directly. Formerly the procedure had been the same as for
initiatives, requiring 15,000 signatures on a petition. My concern is
that "united we stand, divided we fall". When the statists succeed in
dividing their opposition between gunners, antifluoridationists, etc.,
they succeed in their totalitarian schemes. I should think if a gun
organization wants to make antihunting initiatives more difficult, it
ought not simultaneously accede to easing requirements for initiatives
and referenda for nongun statist schemes. Uniformity in such requirements
leaves all parties in the same position (level playing field). Special
privileges breed contempt, envy and overconfidence.
>Further, while fluoride can be used to poison water (as can chlorine or
>virtually anything else),
Though the presence of very high levels of chlorine in water would be
much more apparent than fluoride. I doubt many people would remain in
the shower long enough to inhale a lethal dose of chlorine, even if
the poisoners piped a near saturated solution into the water system,
but how many people would refrain from drinking water with a slightly
soapy taste?
>I know of absolutely no evidence that fluoride in the levels usually
>found in water has any tranquilizing or other neuropsychiatric effects.
>Anecdotally, I drank fluoridated water most of life, took fluoride
>supplements as a child, and I haven't noticed any change at all since
>I moved to Utah and started drinking unfluoridated water. And I doubt
>anyone would seriously accuse me of being dumbed-down or docile! <g>
>When you're evaluating information, it's always a good idea to consider
>the sources.
I have been a lot less docile, and fwiw have had a LOT less cavities,
(1 compared to a dozen or so) since I quit drinking fluoridated water
or taking fluoride supplements. If fluoride is effective against caries,
it is only topically. Internally it causes mottling and misalignment of
haversian canals in bones and teeth by interfering with the piezoelectric
alignment process. I would think that any conspiracy capable of
implementing fluoridation for such purposes as passivating the population
would almost necessarily have to be capable of keeping reports of such
effects out of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. This would be
necessary to reduce the incidence and credibility of opposition. I seem
to have heard that such journals can be swayed to block acceptance or
publication of articles on grounds of "National Security". And of course
any government funding would include controls on publication of results.
Don't you recall the official position that nuclear fallout was harmless
until contrary evidence became overwhelming? Even then, Dr. Lyons' study
was torpedoed. Let me tell you, amazing things can be found in the
classified literature with little hint in the open literature.
>And BTW, does LPUtah have a position on the right of property owners to
>develop their property as they see fit?
'LPUtah'? I don't think so, but this is a matter of episodic hot debate
on the LPUtah list. You might want to see what the national platform
says about it. I assume that by 'property' you refer to land, buildings
and real estate?
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 07:41:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: USSC BBS/listserver
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:48:55 -0700 Will Thompson wrote:
>Subject: Re: Use of Fluorides to Modify Behavior
>Unless that was just meant as a tweak to a set of people involved
>with USSC....if so, it's a cheap shot and you might also bear in
>mind that the only board member who is likely to read this on this
>forum voted against supporting the bill.
Didn't the USSC once have a BBS? What became of it?
If the USSC board, with one exception, isn't willing to
read utah-firearms, how about starting their own list?
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