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Internet Message Format | 1998-05-30 | 586KB

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Shoe protest to symbolize U.S. child deaths by guns
Date: 30 Apr 1998 18:56:00 -0700


Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services

******************************************************
12:37 PM ET 04/29/98

Shoe protest to symbolize U.S. child deaths by guns

By Grant McCool

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Gun control advocates plan Saturday to
display piles of shoes, some of them once worn by young victims
of firearms, in a protest against handgun makers over the
shooting deaths of thousands of children.

Calling it the ``Silent March,'' demonstrators will take
their cause to gun manufacturers in Massachusetts, Connecticut,
Maryland, Virginia and Georgia with a list of 10 demands urging
changes in the way they produce and market handguns.

The main display of 5,285 pairs of shoes, some of them
donated by relatives and friends of people killed in gun
violence, will be in the historic district of Springfield, Mass.
British-owned Smith and Wesson, the largest U.S. handgun
manufacturer, has its headquarters near the town.

The shoes will be laid out in a two-hour silent protest in
the town square and then hundreds of demonstrators are expected
to go to the Smith and Wesson plant and stand in silence with
posters for a further 90 minutes, the New York-based founders of
The Committee on the Silent March said.

They said the number of pairs of shoes represented the
number of children and teen-agers killed by gunfire -- including
murders, accidents and suicides -- in the United States in 1995,
the last year for which statistics are available. More than
36,000 people were killed by guns in 1995.

``Media reports on gun violence don't ask the question
'where does the gun come from?' It's as if we have a country
full of bad kids who have guns ... And we can't do anything
about it,'' said Tina Johnstone, one of the founders of the
non-profit group. Johnstone's husband was killed by a
16-year-old with a handgun in San Francisco in 1992.

Americans have become accustomed over the years to hearing
about firearm murders, accidents and suicides, but at least five
shootings in the past six months have focused attention again on
children and guns. Plans for the ``Silent March'' had begun long
before the recent spate of shootings.

Last Friday night, a 14-year-old in the rural northwestern
Pennsylvania town of Edinboro shot dead a teacher at a school
dance and on Saturday a 4-year-old boy fatally shot a 6-year-old
playmate in Greensboro, North Carolina, with a semi-automatic
pistol he found in his grandmother's purse.

Last month, an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old using handguns
and rifles shot dead four students and a teacher at school in
Jonesboro, Ark. In October 1997, two were killed and seven
wounded in a shooting at a Pearl, Miss. school and two months
later, a 14-year-old boy killed three high school students and
wounded five in Paducah, Ky.

Statistics gathered from government, academic and health
care sources show that 50,000 children were killed by guns in
the decade from 1986 to 1995, almost 3,000 more than the number
of Americans killed in the Vietnam War of the 1960s and 70s.

The Silent March group urges manufacturers to participate in
preventing gun violence by making a ``sea change'' in their
business, including installing locking devices to make weapons
childproof, putting prominent warning labels on guns and
establishing manufacturer-authorized dealerships.

A spokesman for Smith and Wesson, which is owned by Tomkins
PLC of London, declined to comment on the protest or the demands
until a news conference the company has scheduled for Friday in
Springfield, Mass.

Similar protests are planned Saturday at Colt in Hartford,
Connecticut; Beretta in Accokeek, Maryland; Interarms in
Alexandria, Virginia; Glock in Atlanta, Georgia and Sturm, Ruger
in Southport, Connecticut. A separate protest is scheduled for
May 16 in Los Angeles, Ca., at Bryco, makers of the so-called
''Saturday Night Specials.''

Johnstone and fellow-activist Ellen Freudenheim helped organize
a similar event in 1996 that brought 40,000 pairs of shoes on
display in Washington D.C. ``The idea behind the shoes is to
show the numbers, put a human face on the numbers,'' said
Freudenheim.

The group believes that gun manufacturers, like the tobacco
industry, should pay some of the billions of dollars in medical
costs incurred by treatment of gun wounds. Handgun injuries cost
at least $1.5 billion a year, they said.

They also want Congress to impose on firearms the consumer
product safety regulations that cover less lethal products
such as electric toasters, teddy bears and children's pajamas.

REUTERS

 <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><

http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html [Real Audio]

[We have stories to learn here]

PSALMS:37
Deuteronomy 28:1-68

"The First Amendment has erected a wall
of separation between church and state,
but that wall is a one directional wall;
it keeps the government from running
the church,but it makes sure that Christian
principles will always stay in government."

--Thomas Jefferson, 1 Jan 1802,
address to the Danbury Baptists
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to
warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that
man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman
accountable for his blood."
Ezekiel 33:6 (NIV)
 __________________________________________________________
 "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null
 and void." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (2 Cranch) 137 (1803)
 --------------------------------------------------------
 "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny."
 "Where the government fears the people, you have liberty."
 +++++++++++++++++++   ><>   +++++++++++++++++++++
"... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.
... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a
century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787, letter to William S. Smith, see
Jefferson On Democracy, 20 (S. Padover ed. 1939).

<@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><   <@{{><


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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Truth New Threat to Law Enforcement
Date: 30 Apr 1998 19:22:00 -0700


by WILLIAM KEMP
[e-mail]
The Vigo Examiner

WASHINGTON -- Reacting to recent efforts by law enforcement to infiltrate,
prosecute, and disrupt their activities, a consortium of citizens' militia
groups around the nation have announced a plan to rid themselves of
individuals in their midst who are actually working for various federal
and local police agencies.

Their plan employs a relatively obscure but fairly simple technology,
using computers to analyze tape recorded statements for stress levels.
The human voice displays a natural frequency. If the individual tells
a lie, added stress causes the natural frequency to shift very slightly,
indicating that the statement is not true. It is anticipated that this
method will gain wide acceptance. Plans are being made for group members
to individually and voluntarily make statements of loyalty, to be analyzed
by an independent contractor who has no knowledge of the identity of the
individuals making the voluntary statements, providing a double blind
test. Individuals refusing to submit to analysis may no longer be included
in group activities.

It is further planned that individuals who wish to make accusations
against other individuals shall submit statements outlining the accusations
for analysis, thus allowing a quick determination of the validity of the
accusations. It is anticipated that accusers unwilling to offer their
accusations for analysis shall not be taken seriously.

Federal law enforcement has experienced much success in recent times
by infiltrating and subsequently prosecuting what they allege to be right
wing extremist groups which have burgeoned in recent years. These groups,
referred to by government sources as antigovernment, or as domestic
terrorists, and by the groups themselves as citizens' militia,
constitutionalists, common law organizations, and various Christian
organizations, have grown dramatically in the wake of events they see
as evidence of government out of control.

These events are exemplified by the killing of white separatist Randy
Weaver's son and wife. Government agents wanted Mr. Weaver to become a
confidential informant to infiltrate groups such as those known as Christian
Identity. Mr. Weaver, a jury subsequently found, was entrapped in order to
bring pressure on him to do the bidding of government law enforcement agents.

Weaver refused to cooperate, and a major effort was mounted by the
government to surveil his isolated Idaho cabin. Subsequently, his son was shot
in the back and killed by U.S. Marshals; his wife was killed by a shot to
the head while she held her infant daughter in the door of her remote Idaho
cabin by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi. Special Agent Horiuchi acted on orders
from high-placed FBI officials to "shoot on sight." Neither Mr. Weaver's
son nor his wife were wanted for any violation. Special Agent Horiuchi was
charged by Idaho authorities with manslaughter in the case, and a federal
court has appropriated jurisdiction. The government is defending Horiuchi,
and many believe that the federal court will throw out the charges against
him.

This event was followed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
(ATF) disastrous assault on the Seventh Day Adventist church complex near
Waco, Texas, following the infiltration of the church community by an agent
of the ATF. This event began with ATF forces arriving at the church complex
en masse, allegedly to serve a "knock" search warrant (where the warrant
is to be served by knocking on the door of the building to be searched).

However, ATF brought no warrant to the site, and a major gun fight
erupted, with ATF suffering twenty or more casualties, the loss of two
helicopters, and was routed from the scene. A jury subsequently absolved
those inside the church complex who survived the initial assault by ATF,
and the final assault by the FBI using tanks and poison gas, of homicide
charges, declaring the actions to be self defense and therefore justifiable.

In the meantime, by law enforcement's own admission, the use of
confidential informants and other infiltration agents of law enforcement
has continued unabated, strongly reminiscent of the FBI's COINTELPRO
operations declared unconstitutional some years ago. This has resulted
in many prosecutions of individuals for statutory violations which carry
major prison sentences.

This major effort by government to place individuals under false colors
into citizens' organizations has resulted in major disruption of their
activities, and a great deal of suspicion and "finger pointing" in their
ranks. Many have been brought to the brink of complete dissolution. The
plans to ascertain individuals of questionable loyalty and intentions
threatens to become a major stumbling block for law enforcement.

Law enforcement officials, apprised of these developments, are greatly
disturbed. Speaking on condition of anonymity, one related "This is
disastrous. Our entire effort has been to place infiltrators in these
groups, and the loss of these infiltrators will require us to completely
revamp our efforts. Because there is no overt manifestation of criminal
intent by these groups, this could completely remove us from their inner
workings.

When asked of other ramifications of this approach, the official was
even more distressed. "As you know, most of the people we prosecute are
accused of so-called victimless, or statutory, crimes. Since there is no
complaining party for these crimes, we are required to put secret agents
inside the general population, who can ferret out these activities. If
these agents can be identified by a cheap, quick, and simple method, our
efforts could be halted. We will not be able to place agents, or coerce
individuals into acting in our interests, if they know that they can be
so easily discovered. If people implement these plans on a wide scale,
our efforts against ownership of illegal firearms and all sorts of other
illegal activities will be crippled."

He continued: "We use this stress analysis ourselves, to great benefit,
and there are laws against individuals using it. But the laws against
individual use are inoperable when performed with permission of those being
analyzed. If our agents voluntarily submit to analysis, they will be found
out. If they do not submit, they will be ostracized-- in either case, they
are no longer useful to us. We will be required to expend a great deal of
effort at surveillance, phone taps and mail intercepts. There are simply
too many people to watch on an effective basis, and when we start poking
around without warrants, we will soon be forced to almost completely halt
our activities. We'll have to wait until someone commits a crime, and then
try to find out who did it. In the case of drugs, firearms, gambling, and
the like, we will NEVER find out, for there will be no crime that we can
even know occurred."

Another official was even more distressed, however, when he anticipated
other uses of the stress analysis technology. "The worst of this isn't
even related to law enforcement. If people start analyzing statements
of public officials, judges and legislators and candidates for office,
the outcome will be chilling. Every politician will know that his
statements will be subject to scientific scrutiny, his answers to
questions will be quickly and widely known as truth or not, and the
confidence of people in government will be greatly eroded."

He continued "It wouldn't surprise me if most politicians simply quit
rather than subject themselves to this, and the only people who will run
for office will be those who have no experience in politics and government,
and these folks are not likely to continue the policies which have brought
us this far. It is illegal to analyze people without their permission, but
it is easy enough to see that with this genie out of the bottle, there's
no way that we can keep people from finding out the truth."

h


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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Truth New Threat to Law Enforcement
Date: 30 Apr 1998 19:25:00 -0700


Clipped from previous post:

http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com




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From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Incident on Long Island
Date: 01 May 1998 01:31:51 -0600

Dear NBC:

I noticed that there is no mention of the upcoming movie "Incident on Long
Island" on your Web page.  I hope that means that you have decided not to
air this show.

Obviously, I haven't seen the movie in question.  But I am familiar with
both Rep. McCarthy and Ms. Streisand and their irrational and prejudiced
hatred of firearms, so I think I can rationally conclude that "Incident"
will be an extremely biased piece of anti-gun propaganda.

You do, of course, have the right to show whatever nonsense you choose.
However, apart from the firearms issue, Rep. McCarthy is currently running
for Congress.  I trust you will be willing to produce a feature film about
each of her opponents, utilizing the skill of your top producers to promote
their political agendas as well.

In the meantime, please be aware that should you show "Incident on Long
Island" as scheduled, or at any future time, I will boycott each and every
sponsor, and encourage everyone I know to do the same.

You should also know that I do not fit your stereotype of a marginalized,
sub-human, poorly-educated "gun nut".  I'm a well-educated retired
physician and writer, and I'm not a member of the NRA.

As for your sponsors, I don't yet know who they are.  But you, and they,
should know that I'm planning on buying a vehicle in the next three months,
I travel frequently both by car and by air, I dine out, I drink beerand
soft drinks on occasion, I make long distance phone calls, I have children
and pets, I buy insurance, do laundry, shop for groceries, plan vacations,
run a household as well as a business, and make all decisions regarding
office furniture, equipment and services.

I also keep my word.

Sincerely,
Sarah Thompson, M.D.
Sandy, UT



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  A request from you... -Forwarded
Date: 01 May 1998 08:10:51 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD74AB.120E5240
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have studied the issues and the candidates for State Senate (Bob =
Bennett and Hartley Anderson) and I am whole heartedly in support of =
Hartley Anderson. He is a Constitutional Conservative in the Tradition = of
the Founding Fathers. I am a state delegate and am going to cast my =
vote for Hartley. Please contact any State Delegates you know and ask =
them to support Hartley. Bob Bennett is a good man, but we have too
many = good men in Washington that aren't making any difference, don't
vote = right, and don't understand the Proper Role of Government. If Bob
= understands it, he has chosen not to stand up for it.

Please cast your votes and tell as many state delegates as you can to =
cast their votes for Hartley Anderson.

On the same but different note, I would like to make another suggestion.
=
I am not endorsing Jeremy Friedbaum (against Chris Cannon) for U.S. =
Congress, but I don't believe it's good for any of us to have an =
unopposed candidate (Chris Cannon). If you are a Utah County delegate I
= ask you to please vote for Jeremy at the convention (please tell other =
delegates the same). This will assure that Chris will be forced into a =
primary and he will have to address the issues (debates, etc.). I am a =
county delegate and I'm going to vote for Jeremy for this reason if =
nothing else.

Thanks for your time,

Cullen




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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: NBC -Forwarded
Date: 01 May 1998 08:12:30 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

On Apr 30, TSBench wrote:

>In a message dated 98-04-30 18:23:54 EDT, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< >A list of sponsors will be circulated immediately after the May
> >3 broadcast.  Efforts to ascertain sponors in advance are still
> >being made.>>>
>
>Just to make a suggestion. Most of the network spots have been sold during the
>so-called 'up-front' season, so even if they all pull out of the show, pretty
>unlikely, NBC is still going to get their financial committment for the year,
>just by dumping the spots into unsold slots in other shows in order to make up
>any audience guarantees (bear in mind that the big heavy hitting advertising
>agencies buy time using various formulas and getting all kinds of 'deals' and
>'packages'.)
>
>Were you can have a real immediate impact at the local level, is find out who
>the "local" sponsors are and go after them with your message. These are the
>folks who buy the local 'spot' advertising in the individual programs, and
>where the stations make a lot of their money. Look, whatever car manufacturers
>run ads on the network, they are going to sell X millions of automobiles this
>year whether you buy one or not.
>But, let Joe's Ford down on Main Street know that your next three automobiles
>will be bought at Tom's Ford on Washington Street, and you'll get Joe's
>attention real fast.
>
>And, remember that the networks are scared shitless of the affiliates, because
>that is what makes them a network. And with the competition from Fox, UPN, WB,
>etc
>the last thing they are looking forward to at the annual affiliates meeting is
>some bullshit general manager bitching about how being one of their affiliates
>is costing him local dollars.
>
>Like the tree huggers say, Think Globally, Act Locally. It works, and with
>very little lag time.
>
>Regards,
>TSB

Good points all.  We've been doing this for some time now, and with some
success in the list boycott dept., with Denny's et al, so this is more of
same at the Local Level.  My point though, is that a lot of folks read
various news groups at all levels, and we could hit them shotgun style
through the proposed method.  The main msg being, "that there's lots of
folks out there who care about (X), and why aggravate them by supporting
programming or other stuff that gets them miffed at you in the first
place?"  Counter Programming for the Politically Correct/Robotically
Inclined, if you will.

Seems like it ought to work.....

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


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From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: [[e-mail]: Re: [[The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ])]]]
Date: 01 May 1998 11:14:50 -0600


I received the following reply from Governor Leavitt's email address.
Note the typical, "I support the 2nd amendment, but guns don't belong
in all these different places" reponse.  My initial email to him
is below.  Put this in the "Don't confuse me with facts" catagory.
Also note the next mesage from me.

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       Thank you for your letter regarding the issue of concealed weapons. =
 I appreciate your taking the time to express your feelings.

         While I firmly believe in our 2nd Amendment rights, I do not =
believe those rights trump private property rights of others.  I do not =
believe schools or churches are appropriate places for firearms.  In =
addition, I believe we should look at private property rights in relationsh=
ip to our concealed weapons law.=20

         As Governor, I represent the citizens of Utah.  This process =
requires the input of concerned people like you who are willing to =
participate.  Your ideas suggestions and opinions are vital to an =
effective government and I appreciate your involvement.


>>> Charles Hardy <[e-mail]> 03/27 4:05 PM >>>

From today's (Friday 27 March 1998) edition of the Wall Street
Journal, page A14, lower, right-hand section.  Passed along
for educational purposes.

----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----

By JOHN R. LOTT JR.

This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred
calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings
occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is
illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have
had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all
allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for
self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law
generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school.

Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not
quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more
regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious
policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is
law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them.
Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating
situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad
ones.

Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of
the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An
assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically
immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the
police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students
(after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives
the assistant principal saved by his prompt response?

Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed
handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in
progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring.
Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out
machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with
expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon
found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice
it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public
shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow
the intended victims to respond.

The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further
illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and
eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier
while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles
Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests
to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave.
Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several
parents said."

Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied
multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These
were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a
public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we
excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as
robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average
of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one.

We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other
methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one
policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these
shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns.

The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults
the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal
record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic.
Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during
the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings
declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by
90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the
death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the
effects were never statistically significant.

With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple
victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet
these are surely the murders that attract national as well as
international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims
recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically
shoots his cowering prey.

Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided
coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive
massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5
million times each year that people use guns defensively--including
cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are
ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from
being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news.

Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have
backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made
them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school
policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal
concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy
and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help
protect children.

Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law,
is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from
the University of Chicago Press.


<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB89095813222556500.ht=
m>

----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

--=20

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

 A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse
 built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis
 for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts),
 Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982.



----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

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From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: [[e-mail]: Re: [[e-mail]: April 26 column -- Swiss
Date: 01 May 1998 11:15:51 -0600


Different message to the governor--same reply.  :)

This guy has got to be defeated in two years.

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        Thank you for your letter regarding the issue of concealed =
weapons.  I appreciate your taking the time to express your feelings.

         While I firmly believe in our 2nd Amendment rights, I do not =
believe those rights trump private property rights of others.  I do not =
believe schools or churches are appropriate places for firearms.  In =
addition, I believe we should look at private property rights in relationsh=
ip to our concealed weapons law.=20

         As Governor, I represent the citizens of Utah.  This process =
requires the input of concerned people like you who are willing to =
participate.  Your ideas suggestions and opinions are vital to an =
effective government and I appreciate your involvement.



>>> Charles Hardy <[e-mail]> 04/19 2:25 AM >>>

Dear Governor

This article contains some very interesting and timely information I
hope you will read and consider.

----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----

    FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED APRIL 26, 1998
    THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
    'As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapon to use, he does
not yield'

    Those who would blithely abandon the greatest safeguard of liberty --
the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear military-style arms =
--
aren't real strong on consistency.

  Aiming to gradually erode the quality of arms we have "permission" to
bear -- back to the level of the muzzle-loading flintlock, if not the
slingshot -- they have been disingenuously mewing for 60 years that they
have no objection to arms "for which there is a legitimate sporting use."

  Of course, the Constitution says nothing about hunting or skeet =
shooting.
Rather, it says we must be allowed to keep our arms -- no "infringement"
whatsoever, no tax, no registration, no "application for permit" -- =
because
the citizens constitute the militia, the most powerful armed force in any
free state.

  The gun-grabbers sneer that this is an out-of-date notion, that a bunch
of farmers with deer rifles could hardly stand up to the 82nd Airborne ...
let along a Chinese invasion.

  But the logical conclusion of that argument is surely that we should
encourage law-abiding citizens to keep machine guns and rocket-launchers =
in
the closet ... not ban AK-47s, with or without pistol grips and bayonet
lugs.

  The victim disarmament extremists (those who would disarm law-abiding
rape victims, but not their assailants, who ignore all such laws) ridicule
this as the sheerest homicidal macho fantasy -- no modern nation has ever
thrown out a tyrant by the simple expedient of the common folk rising up
with their personal rifles, nor does any civilized nation today allow its
citizens to keep machine guns at home.

  Wrong and wrong. Try placing a long-distance call to the American
military governor of Vietnam, or the Soviet military governor of
Afghanistan, to ask them how easy it was to suppress a nation of armed
peasants.

  And as to the advisability of "allowing" citizen militias to keep modern
military arms with them at home -- yes, Sarah, the kind "designed for no
purpose but to kill large numbers of people" -- we turn to Virginia
attorney and Second Amendment expert Stephen P. Halbrook, author of the =
new
book "Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II," due =
this
spring from Sarpedon Press.

  Writing in the January 1998 edition of the excellent magazine
"Chronicles," Mr. Halbrook points out that "Since the origins of the Swiss
Confederation in 1291, it has been the duty of every male Swiss citizen to
be armed and to serve in the militia. Today, that arm is an 'assault
rifle,' which is issued to every Swiss male and which must be kept in the
home. During Germany's Third Reich (1933-1945), that arm was a bolt-action
repeating rifle, which was highly effective in the hands of Switzerland's
many sharpshooters.

  "Americans of the wartime generation were familiar with the fact that
brave and armed little Switzerland stood up to Hitler and made him blink.
As a map of Europe in 1942 shows, the Nazis had swallowed up most of
everything on the continent but this tiny speck that Hitler called 'a
pimple on the face of Europe.' The Fuhrer boasted that he would be 'the
butcher of the Swiss,' but the Wehrmacht was dissuaded by a fully armed
populace in the Alpine terrain. ...

    #   #   #

  "The Swiss federal shooting festival, which remains the largest rifle
competition in the world, was held in Luzern in June 1939. Hitler's
takeover of Austria and Czechoslovakia was complete, both countries had
been surrendered by tiny political elites who guaranteed that there would
be no resistance. Swiss President Philipp Etter spoke at the festival,
stressing that something far more serious than sport was the purpose of
their activity. His comments demonstrated the connection between national
defense and the armed citizen:

  " 'There is probably no other country that, like Switzerland, gives the
soldier his weapon to keep in the home. The Swiss always has his rifle at
hand. It belongs to the furnishings of his home. ... That corresponds to
ancient Swiss tradition. As the citizen with his sword steps into the ring
in the cantons which have the Landsgemeinde (government by public =
meeting),
so the Swiss soldier lives in constant companionship with his rifle. He
knows what that means. With this rifle, he is liable every hour, if the
country calls, to defend his hearth, his home, his family, his birthplace.
The weapon is to him a pledge and sign of honor and freedom. The Swiss =
does
not part with his rifle.'

  Mr. Halbrook continues: "On September 1, 1939, Hitler launched World War
II by attacking Poland. Within a day or two, Switzerland had about half a
million militiamen mobilized out of a population of just over four =
million.
General Henri Cuisan, commander in chief of the Swiss militia, responded
with Operations Order No. 2:

  " 'At the border and between the border and army position, the border
troops and advance guard persistently delay the advance of the enemy. The
garrisons at the border and between the border and the works and positions
making up the defensive front continue resistance up to the last cartridge,=

even if they find themselves completely alone.'

  "This astonishing order was the opposite of the policies of the other
European countries, which either surrendered to Hitler without a fight or
surrendered after a brief resistance. For example, in April 1940, =
Denmark's
king surrendered the country after a meeting with the Nazis and instructed
his forces not to resist. Norway resisted, although 'unlike Switzerland' =
it
had no armed populace and was ill- prepared for combat.

  "In response to the invasions of small neutral countries, Switzerland
issued its 'directions concerning the conduct of the soldiers not under
arms in event of attack.' Intended as a warning to Germany, it was pasted
on walls all over the country. It prescribed the reaction against surprise
attack and against the fifth column as follows:

  " 'All soldiers and those with them are to attack with ruthlessness
parachutists, airborne infantry and saboteurs. Where no officers and
noncommissioned officers are present, each soldier acts under exertion of
all powers of his own initiative.'

  "This command for the individual to act on his own initiative was an
ancient Swiss tradition which reflected the political and military
leadership's staunch confidence in the ordinary man. This command was
possible, of course, only in a society where every man had his rifle at
home.

  " 'Under no condition,' the order continued, 'would any surrender be
forthcoming, and any pretense of a surrender must be ignored: If by radio,
leaflets or other media any information is transmitted doubting the will =
of
the Federal Council or of the Army High Command to resist an attacker. =
this
information must be regarded as the  lies of enemy propaganda. Our country
will resist aggression with all means in its power and to the death.' ...

    #   #   #

  "France collapsed in June, 1940 after only a few weeks of fighting. =
Paris
was taken without a shot being fired. The Nazis promptly proclaimed the
death penalty for possession of firearms in France and other occupied
countries.

  "In contrast, Cuisan recalled the high duty of the soldier to resist:

  " 'Everywhere, where the order is to hold, it is the duty of conscience
of each fighter, even if he depends on himself alone, to fight at his
assigned position. The riflemen, if overtaken or surrounded, fight in =
their
position until no more ammunition exists. Then cold steel is next. ... The
machine gunners, the cannoneers of heavy weapons, the artillerymen, if in
the bunker or on the field, do not abandon or destroy their weapons, or
allow the enemy to seize them. Then the crews fight further like riflemen.
As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapons to use, he does not
yield. ..."

  Even old men and children were issued armbands, identifying them as
Ortswehren (local defense) so they could not be shot as partisans under
international law, when the time came for them to shoot any invader they
saw.

  Hitler never invaded Switzerland. Would you have?

  Nor has any dictator -- military or otherwise -- ever attempted to rule
the Swiss cantons by "executive order" ... like the one Bill Clinton
haughtily signed to outlaw the import of AK-47 variants which his own ATF
had found to be in full compliance with current law.

  "There was no holocaust on Swiss soil," Mr. Halbrook concludes. "Swiss
Jews served in the militia side by side with their fellow citizens, and
kept rifles in their homes just like everyone else. It is hard to believe
that there could have been a holocaust had the Jews of Germany, Poland, =
and
France had the same privilege."

  Folks ask me: "I'm just one person, what can I do?"

  Buy an M1-A, or an AR-10, at $1,100. These are better weapons than are
currently standard issue in the U.S. Army. If you can't afford those, buy =
a
surplus M-1 Garand at $500, or even a 1917 Enfield, at $250. For the
smaller women and teens, a surplus M-1 carbine apiece, at about $350. Six
magazines for each rifle and a couple thousand rounds of surplus ammunition=

(in bulk) may set you back $800.

  Do it before autumn of 1998, when the Brady Bill allows national gun
registration, even for LONG GUNS.

  But only if you want America to remain a free country, of course.

  Freedom is always optional.

Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at [e-mail]. The =
web
site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.

***


Vin Suprynowicz,   [e-mail]=20

"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments
it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest
limits possible.  Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right
of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext
whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the
brink of destruction." -- Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768
"Commentaries on the Laws of England."




----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

--=20

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"From all that terror teaches, From lies of tongue and pen,
From all the easy speeches That comfort cruel men,
From sale and profanation of honor and the sword,
From sleep and from damnation, Deliver us, Good Lord."
-- G.K. Chesterton, "A Hymn"

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [[e-mail]: Re: [[e-mail]:
Date: 01 May 1998 14:19:58 -0600

At 11:15 AM 5/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Different message to the governor--same reply.  :)
>
>This guy has got to be defeated in two years.

Or maybe impeached in less than two years for willfully and repeatedly
violating the Utah State weapons laws....

Nah......  just wishful thinking. <g>

Sarah

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  RNC/ Clinton News Conference - "Breaking the Law is Not
Date: 01 May 1998 15:17:28 -0700

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              of Those Things"

RNC News Release

April 30, 1998

RNC CHAIRMAN JIM NICHOLSON: "BREAKING THE LAW IS NOT JUST ONE OF
THOSE THINGS!"

WASHINGTON - Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson
today strongly criticized President Clinton for saying in his
press conference that breaking the law, perjury and telling others
to lie under oath is "just one of those things."

     "Astonishingly, Bill Clinton was unable to bring himself to
say that a president is not above the law," Nicholson said.
"Instead, we heard him say that -- to him --'committing perjury'
and 'breaking the law' are '"just one of those things.'

     "The answer to the question should have been simple. Clinton
should have said: 'In America no one is above the law. Not the
President. Not anyone.'

     "It is vital that Republicans and, yes, Democrats as well
quickly reassert and emphasize this core American value. It is
disgraceful and deeply disturbing that Clinton rejects this belief
and asserts that he is above the law."

     President Clinton made his remarks today in his first and
only solo presidential press conference of the year.  A verbatim
transcript of the exchange follows:


     ABC White House Correspondent, Sam Donaldson:  "Mr.
President, quite a few Americans seem to believe it doesn't matter
what you may have done in private moments, that that's between you
and your wife.  And some are saying it doesn't even matter if
you've broken the law - obstructed justice or committed perjury.
Now, you deny wrongdoing, I understand.  But as standard for
presidents, what do you think?  And, particularly, does it matter
if you have committed perjury or in other sense broken the law?"

     President Clinton:  "Well, since I have answered the
underlying questions, I really believe it's important for me not
to say any more about this.  I think that I'm the last person who
needs to be having a national conversation about this.  What I'm
trying to do - I may be the leader, but my job as leader is to
lead the country and to deal with the great public issues facing
the country, and to prove Justice Scalia right when he said that
nothing that could be done to me in a legal way would in any way
affect my job as president.  It would be just one of those things
and I could go right on and do my job.  And I'm going to do my
best to prove him correct by doing the public's business."

(Visit http://www.rnc.org for the latest republican news and information)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Promised Land -Forwarded
Date: 01 May 1998 17:06:22 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

Just saw a TV movie with Gerald McRaney, Promised Land.  The show's premise
was a 16 year old that comes into a school house and kills a fellow student
while looking for a teacher to kill. McRaney's TV wife talks the kid down and
then the shooter tries to kill himself.  The shooter was using a Remington
742 that looked to be a 30-06.  The shooter was partially blocked in this
suicide attempt by the wife.  He makes it to the Hospital.  The second half
of the show is taken up with dealing with the topic of kids with "conduct
disorder" IE, the target group of kids that do violent acts.

Not ONCE does this show mention guns.  Not ONCE does the show address the
media hot topics of locking up guns or any other gun control topic.  It
addressed the issue of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

I URGE everyone to log onto cbs.com and THANK THEM for showing this episode.
 The producer of the show came on before the start and said the show was
filmed a week prior to the Jonesboro kid shootings and they thought about
delaying airing the episode.

I'm glad they didn't wait.



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  ID: Chenoweth Misrepresented In The Media -Forwarded
Date: 01 May 1998 18:02:49 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

>Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:47:05 -0400
>From: Gun Owners of America <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: Gun Owners of America <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: ID: Chenoweth Misrepresented In The Media
>
>         Anti-gun Media Distorts Chenoweth's Gun Record
>       -- Make your voice heard in a Letter to the Editor
>
>                    by Gun Owners of America
> 8001 Forbes Place, Springfield, VA  22151, [phone], fax:
>                            321-8408
>
>
>     (Wednesday, April 29, 1998) -- As you know, Rep. Helen
>Chenoweth (R-ID) is one of the strongest supporters of the Second
>Amendment that we have in the Congress.  Not surprisingly, the
>anti-gun media (even in her home state) rarely pass up an
>opportunity to distort her record.
>
>     At the very bottom of this alert, we have reprinted a
>recent misinterpretation from The Idaho Statesman.  While their
>attack is subtle, it is perhaps the most dangerous kind of
>subterfuge that media pens can wield.  They don't attack by
>name-calling or by some other form of obvious denunciation.
>
>     Rather, they attempt to destroy one's credibility using the
>weapon of ridicule.  They attempt to appear "objective" while
>making a legislator's statement seem erroneous.  In this case,
>the Statesman pretends to factually evaluate one of Rep.
>Chenoweth's advertisements.  (Rep. Chenoweth placed a pro-gun ad
>in a national magazine in an attempt to garner support for
>repealing the obnoxious Lautenberg gun ban.  As you know, Rep.
>Chenoweth has courageously taken the lead in fighting to repeal
>this ban.)  But the journalists at the Statesman -- while trying
>to sound "objective" -- cannot divorce themselves from their
>anti-gun mindset.  Objectivity is just not in the cards for
>them.
>
>     ACTION:  GOA has printed the Statesman's distortion at the
>end of this alert.  We would ask that you consider choosing one
>of the Letters to the Editor below and sending it as a response
>to the Statesman's article.  You can send your Letter to the
>Editor by mail or fax to the following address/number:  Idaho
>Statesman, ATTN:  Editorial Page Editor, PO Box 40, Boise, ID
>83707 or Fax:  [phone].
>
>
>Dear Editor:
>
>     Your "Reality Check" article from April 9 is itself in need
>of a Reality Check.  The new law you spoke of -- the one
>introduced by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) -- revokes the Second
>Amendment rights of ordinary citizens for committing VERY minor
>"offenses."
>
>     While you were correct in saying that being a victim of
>domestic violence "doesn't [automatically] trigger the ban," the
>fact is many victims DO get sucked under its purview.
>
>     These days, when the police are called out to a home, both
>parties are often charged, no matter who was at fault -- some
>states even require an arrest be made.  Now you can easily have a
>police record, even if it only led to your paying a small fine.
>The end result is a loss of your God-given rights.
>
>     Last year, the Gun Owners of America reported on one
>Illinois lady who lost her right to self-defense because she
>called the police to her home.  When her husband returned home
>drunk one evening, more than ten years ago, an argument ensued
>and he started breaking out the windows in the house.
>Frightened, she called the police, but when they arrived they
>claimed there was nothing they could do since it was his own
>property.
>
>     Angered by her husband's "smug look," she slapped him in
>the face, right in front of the police officer.  Incredibly, the
>police arrested her and took her to jail, charging her with
>simple assault.  In order to avoid the costly expense of a trial
>and hiring an attorney, she pled guilty to a misdemeanor and
>paid a $25 fine.
>
>     Now, because of the Lautenberg gun ban, she can no longer
>own guns.  She now has a new husband who might also be prevented
>from keeping guns in their home because the wife would still be
>in "possession" of those firearms.
>
>     I agree with Rep. Helen Chenoweth that this law must be
>repealed.  I hope you will run your facts through a "Reality
>Check" the next time you report on this law.
>
>
>Dear Editor:
>
>     The "Political Ad Watch" column missed the mark recently
>when analyzing Rep. Helen Chenoweth's position on the Lautenberg
>gun ban.
>
>     Rep. Chenoweth is absolutely correct in her critique of this
>onerous law.  This gun ban is one of the most dangerous pieces of
>legislation to pass in the last decade.
>
>     This ban will disarm a person for life, for convictions
>as slight as spanking a child or grabbing a spouse.
>
>     Every year, over 200,000 women use a gun to defend
>themselves against sexual assault. But the Lautenberg ban can
>easily take guns away from women who have no other way of
>defending themselves.
>
>     In many localities, spanking your child is now considered
>domestic violence "child abuse." How many mothers have spanked
>their children as a way to correct them? But because of the
>Lautenberg ban, now one can lose their right to self-defense for
>merely spanking their child.
>
>     For these and other reasons, several women's and family
>groups support Rep. Chenoweth's bill repealing the Lautenberg
>gun ban.
>
>     These groups include the likes of Concerned Women for
>America, Independent Women's Forum, Women Against Gun Control,
>American Family Association, Safety for Women and Responsible
>Motherhood, and the Home School Legal Defense Association.
>
>     I'm glad that Rep. Chenoweth is doing something about this
>dangerous law. She is a fine lady for standing up for the rights
>of decent Americans.
>
>
>Dear Editor:
>
>     Representative Helen Chenoweth is right on the money when it
>comes to gun legislation.
>
>     Since late 1996, there has been a law in effect in this
>country which has the potential of disarming millions of decent
>American citizens. Thankfully, Mrs. Chenoweth is pushing a bill
>that will repeal this so-called Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Gun
>Ban -- a bill that will do nothing to help battered women and
>abused children, as its proponents claim.
>
>     After all, most men who abuse women and children use sheer
>physical force.  Women, however, often rely on a firearm to
>defend themselves.
>
>     But the real danger of the law is that it imposes a
>lifetime gun ban for misdemeanors, which by definition are
>supposed to be minor offenses. In many cases, a misdemeanor does
>not even involve actual physical violence.
>
>     For example, a pro-Second Amendment group that I support
>recently told of an Ohio man who had a fierce verbal argument
>with his father when he was seventeen. Someone called the
>police, and the father let them arrest the youth to "teach him a
>lesson." The next morning, the father went to the police station
>to have the charges dropped, but that was not possible. The
>father paid a small fine and took his son home.
>
>     In 1996, ten years after the original incident, the son had
>nearly completed training to join a local police department.
>After the Lautenberg ban passed, however, this young man, who
>had no other encounters with the law, was subject to a lifetime
>gun prohibition.
>
>     The Lautenberg ban is nonsensical. If there is a problem
>with truly violent offenders plea-bargaining down to
>misdemeanors, that should be handled in the court system.
>Firearm ownership is one of the most basic liberties a free
>people enjoy, and should not be taken away from persons
>convicted of mere misdemeanors.
>
>
>                 Excerpt from the Political Ad Watch
>                    (The Idaho Statesman, 4/9/98)
>
>     "The Advertisement -- AD CONTENT:  In the April 5 national
>weekly edition of The Washington Times, [Rep. Helen] Chenoweth
>attacks an amendment sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-NJ,
>to ban people convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence
>offenses from owning guns.  The measure is now law.
>
>     "'Don't Let the Government STEAL YOUR GUNS! . . . An abused
>spouse can be denied the right to own a gun,' the ad says.  'The
>ban applies to couples who get into shouting matches with each
>other or their children.  The amendment is retroactive and
>creates a new penalty for many law enforcement men and women who
>may have been a past victim of domestic violence.'"
>
>     "REALITY CHECK:  The Lautenberg law applies only to people
>who have been convicted by a jury or have pleaded guilty to a
>misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.  Being accused of
>domestic violence -- or being a victim -- doesn't trigger the
>ban. [Note:  Rep. Chenoweth never said that "being accused" of
>domestic violence automatically triggers the ban.  This type of
>subtle misrepresentation makes it appear as though the
>Representative is spouting untruth.]
>
>     "Graham Paterson, Chenoweth's campaign aide, defends the ad
>by saying that some people may be wrongly accused and simply
>plead guilty to the crime 'to put the issue behind them' or
>because they can't afford a lawyer.
>
>     [Note:  Here the Statesman makes a slight concession.]
>"Chenoweth is correct in saying that the law applies to people
>in the armed services and law enforcement.  No one who has been
>convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence offense is exempt
>from the measure.  And it is retroactive in the sense that
>convictions before 1996, when the law took effect, can strip
>people of the right to own or carry a gun. . . ."
>
>
>***********************************************************
>Are you receiving this as a cross-post? To be certain of
>getting up-to-the-minute information, please consider
>joining the GOA E-mail Alert Network directly. The service
>is free, your address remains confidential, and the volume
>is quite low: five messages a week would be a busy week
>indeed. To subscribe, simply send a message (or forward
>this notice) to [e-mail] and include your
>state of residence in either the subject line or the body.
>
>
>
>
******************
Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are
available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda  Latest additions are
found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the
heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send
[request index.txt] to [e-mail] and an index of the files
at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request <filename>]
and the requested file will be sent as a message.
Various shareware programs are archived at:
ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the
FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to [e-mail]
********************



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  "Death Merchants - 81; U.S. Taxpayers - 19" - a letter to
Date: 04 May 1998 08:20:03 -0700

Received: from bob-dj (slip129-37-227-11.az.us.ibm.net [129.37.227.11]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA29046; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:16:40 GMT
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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  editor of the New York Times (May 2, 1998)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

PHOENIX, ARIZONA

Thought you may be interested in the enclosed letter to the editor of the
New York Times.  If you're not, and don't care to receive any such reports
which upset your 'happy-go-lucky  NWO nirvana" state of mind, just send us
your e-mail address and write REMOVE or UNSUBSCRIBE.  We'll be happy to
oblige.  But be sure to specify the EXACT e-mail ID to which this is being
sent.

Bob Dj.

Toby Harshaw
Letters Editor
THE NEW YORK TIMES
New York, NY
--------------

Dear Mr. Harshaw:

Mr. Thomas Friedman's outrage is understandable when he writes that, "we
are in the age of midgets."  And when he quotes a distinguished American
statesman, George Kennan, now age 94, as saying that, "I think it (the
Senate vote) is the beginning of a new cold war...  I think it is a tragic
mistake.  There was no reason for this whatsoever.  No one was threatening
anybody else.  This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this
country turn over in their graves."

But I am afraid that there is a perfectly good reason for the Apr. 30
Senate vote ratifying the NATO Expansion Treaty which neither Mr. Friedman
nor Mr. Kennan mentioned.  It is the $33 million dollars or so which the
U.S. death merchants have pumped into our legislators' campaigns since 1990
in the hope this may help "sharpen their (the Senators) thinking" when the
time to vote comes, according to Col. David Hackworth, America's most
decorated living soldier and a syndicated columnist.

It did.  The final score was: Death Merchants - 81; Taxpayers - 19.

In other words, it was a blow-out, to borrow a sports term.  Which is why
we, the U.S. taxpayers-losers, need to show our ire by holding the 81
Senators' feet to the fire when they next ask for our votes.  "Remember
your NATO hot potato?" we should respond.  "Well, it burned right through
your right hand, Senator, the one with which you swore to uphold the U.S.
Constitution and vote your constituents' interests in Congress.  Good luck
in your job hunt!"

Sincerely,

Bob Djurdjevic
Founder
TRUTH IN MEDIA


----
Bob Djurdjevic
TRUTH IN MEDIA
Phoenix, Arizona
e-mail: [e-mail]

Visit the <http://www.beograd.com/truth>Truth in Media Web site for more
articles on geopolitical affairs.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: USSC Meeting CHANGE!!
Date: 04 May 1998 14:17:10 -0600

Hi all!

The USSC meeting scheduled for THIS EVENING, Monday, May 4, has been
CANCELLED.

The meeting has been rescheduled for THURSDAY evening, May 7.  The location
is the same, 7 N. Main Street in Kaysville.  (Crossroads of the West
offices).  Time is 7 PM.  If anyone needs directions or is interested in
carpooling, please let me know.

I don't have a formal agenda for Thursday's meeting, but we will be
discussing candidate evaluation questionnaires.  Other possible topics
include a proposed change in the date for elections, and proposed policies
and strategies for the remaining interim sessions as well as next year's
legislative session.

Also, if anyone has a complete list of sponsors for last night's NBC movie
"Incident on Long Island", please forward it so I can post and distribute
it.  Thanks!

Apologies for the late notice.  I didn't get the notice of the change until
about two hours ago.

Sarah




To subscribe to the USSC mail list, send a message to:
[e-mail]
In the SUBJECT of the message put:
SUBSCRIBE USSC

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: USSC Meeting CHANGE AGAIN!
Date: 04 May 1998 20:19:34 -0600

Hi all!

Apologies once again for providing incorrect (or at least not up to date)
information.

The USSC Board meeting scheduled for THURSDAY, MAY 7 has also been
CANCELLED.  The meeting will be held in approximately two weeks, but I have
no information regarding the actual date, place or time.  (At least this is
good news for Jazz fans like me! <g>)

I feel absolutely horrible about providing so much misinformation.  I know
some of you have made efforts to arrange  your schedules to accomodate
meetings and then rescheduled to accomodate changes.

Since the Board appears to be having some communications problems which are
resulting in my not having accurate information to disseminate, my only
option is to close down the USSC e-mail alerts until these problems are
resolved.  So, effective immediately, there will be no further USSC e-mail
alerts originating with me until the problems are resolved.  I hope they
will be resolved quickly so that the alerts can resume.

In the meantime, should you have questions about meeting schedules or any
other USSC business, please contact one of the Board members listed below.

I apologize for the inconvenience, but I believe it is better to provide no
information than to provide incorrect information.  Thanks for your
understanding and cooperation.

Sarah Thompson


The following Board members have volunteered to have their contact info
made public.  Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse
their open-door policy.

Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), [e-mail]
Elwood Powell,  426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w),
    [e-mail]
Shirley Spain, 963-0784, [e-mail]
Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (w), 546-2275 (h)
Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, [e-mail]  (I prefer e-mail to phone
calls when possible).
Joe Venus, 571-2223




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: The Incident on Long Island
Date: 04 May 1998 22:12:24 -0600

This seems like a good place to spread this very good letter around too.
larry
(fred's address removed by me as courtesy)
-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


Larry--
Here is my response to NBC. I really think they can be attacked for their
role in providing soft money support for a candidate to Congress. At the
very least maybe they can be forced into giving equal time to her opponent.
If anyone knows the opponent, pass the idea on.
DOG/DVC
Fred
-----Original Message-----


>Your above noted movie is a travesty to every American and a slap in the
>face to, and an attack on, the millions of law abiding gun owners in this
>country. The movie, purportedly to be a "true" story, is filled with lies,
>distortion, deceit, and is a poor attempt at disguising a political
>advertisement in the form of a real life movie. I will write letters to
each
>of your advertisers for this movie so that they will understand why I am
>boycotting their products, and why I am encouraging one and all to boycott
>their products. In fact, I am so angry that I will be writing letters to
all
>your advertisers protesting their support of NBC. Either our Constitution
>means what it says or it doesn't. You either believe in the Constitution
and
>what it stands for or you don't. I will also ask the appropriate federal
>authorities to investigate NBC providing election support to a woman
running
>for Congress. It's what I believe Congress identifies as soft money. I am
>truly sorry to see what was once a fine entertainment network degraded to a
>left leaning organ.
>Fred Muller
>
>






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Protesters in five states ask gun makers to step up controls
Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------
 <[e-mail]>

>>>>

Organization: CWA

Ladies & Gentlemen:

Here they go again. The anti-gun nuts now want an end to hollow point
bullets!

You know, if it were /_really_/ about saving lives they'd ban alcohol
again -- or even cars. If it were /_really_/ about saving lives, they'd
be damanding action on the fact that 100,000 people die each year from
fatal reactions to /_prescribed_/ medicines. (Only 5,000 to 10,000
people die each year from taking /_illegal_/ drugs) If it were /_really_/
about saving lives, these anti-gun activists would push for a ban on
the consumption of alcohol outside a person's private home, which would
drastically cut down the number of alcohol-related automobile deaths.
But it's not about saving lives: It's about disarming the citizens.

All these gripes are just a ploy. When the BATF got their asses shot off
trying to do a fund raiser at a church congregation's expense at Waco,
Clinton took notice. He knew the FBI's own crime figures showed that
semi-automatic long guns were used in less than two-tenths of all gun
crimes committed, yet he pushed through the Assualt Weapons Ban. Why?
Because he and that baby-butcher Janet Reno didn't want their storm
troopers breaking down doors in fear of their lives. Clinton wants to
disarm American's from owning the same kind of weapons his own forces use
in order to gain a tactical advantage over the citizens the government
finds disagreeable. Well, Mr. Clinton, we aren't going to allow that.
You can pass any law you want to, but we will not be disarmed from those
weapons necessary to the preservation and efficiency of the Militia
without a very bloody fight. History has consistently proven that a
disarmed citizenry always leads to genocide, and we, the American
Militia, know that history very, very well.

Carl F. Worden
Liaison & Intelligence Officer
Southern Oregon Militia


Protesters in five states ask gun makers to step up controls

8.07 p.m. ET (008 GMT) May 2, 1998

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (AP) Protesters marched outside America's largest
handgun maker Saturday to demand safeguards they say will cut down on
the thousands of gun deaths that happen each year.

"We are holding the gun industry responsible because they have refused
to design, advertise and market their products to save the lives of
children,'' said Arlene Locicero, 58, of Hawthorne, N.J.

Locicero, whose daughter was one of six people killed in a 1993 shooting
aboard a Long Island commuter train, was among 150 people protesting
outside Smith & Wesson.

The protest was one of several scheduled to be held Saturday outside
the country's largest gun makers in Connecticut, Georgia, Maryland,
Massachusetts and Virginia.

Protesters laid out 5,285 pairs of shoes to represent the number of
young people age 19 and under who died from gunshots either by homicide,
suicide or accident in 1995, the latest year for which statistics were
available.

The Silent March protesters as they called themselves want weapons
manufacturers to make guns childproof, drop laser sights and hollow-point
bullets, display prominent warning labels on guns, reduce production and
raise prices.

"I think the gun manufactures have created this environment,'' said
Tina Johnstone, the Silent March founder whose husband was killed in
San Francisco in 1992. "The country is awash in handguns that are
killing people.''

About 100 people showed up in Southport, Conn., to protest at Sturm,
Ruger & Co. Another hundred protested in Baltimore. Maryland is home
to the gunmaker Beretta.

"I think it's far more important that we work together,'' said Nancy
Fenton, executive director of Marylanders Against Handgun Abuse.

Gunmakers, she said, "can become the best salesman for firearm safety.
They really have the opportunity, and we feel they have the responsibility
to provide that kind of education.''

Congress is now considering a child access prevention bill intended to
educate parents about proper gun storage.

Ed Shultz, Smith & Wesson's CEO and president, said his company already
sells guns with trigger locks and takes many of the measures suggested
by the protesters.

However, "There is no substitute for proper training of those that are
using firearms.'' He said gun owners must learn the importance of safe
storage that keeps guns away from children.

About 50,000 people died in gun-related violence between 1985 and 1995.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Welcome to Gestapo Amerika 1/2
Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

I just sent this off to the Idaho Observer. I'm a little late on delivery,
and the paper goes to press tomorrow, so it may or may not get published,
depending on whether the editor buys my flimsy excuses or not. I've been
trying to call Mr. Evan Nappan, but he's not available/out of the area,
etc., so I can't yet produce an address for Mr. Schaefer's defense fund, but
will as soon as someone let's me know what it is, or the Nappan answers the
phone. Contribute. And let's find some dirt on these New Jersey Gestapo.
Patty

Welcome to Gestapo Amerika
Patricia Neill (c) 1998

Can there be any more reasonable doubt that we as a country have been
overtaken by Gestapo police, BATF, FBI, IRS, EPA organizations that have
taken Hitler's techniques and now use them regularly?

In New Jersey, an FFL licensed gunsmith was attacked in his household. He
was seriously abused, as was his wife and stepson. The BATF made the
charges, but the New Jersey Police "served the search warrant."

How much longer, people, will we put up with this?

Good friends of Mr. Schaefer have contributed their opinions to this
horrible story. Their long-term friendships of Mr. Schaefer speak for
themselves. I will quote a few things they have to say before you read
what occurred early in the morning of April 22, 1998.

From Charles Riggs: "John is 53 and a veteran of the U.S. Army, works
in computers with one of the largest phone companies in the country,
holds an FFL, andis a gunsith andconsultant in on firearms and ammunition.
His clients have included police departments in the past."

More from Mr. Riggs: Mr. Schaefer is a Christian, a gun owner, knowledgable
about weaponry, and is thus scheduled for attack by the BATF, although this
raid was carried out by the New Jersey State Police. The charges against him
for not filling out a form correctly or whatever come from the BATF. The
NJSP, seemingly having taken some drugs to make them even more evil and
unlawful, attacked his home and family.

Immediately after the word of John Schaefer's attack by the BATF/NJSP went
on the net, some media donkey kicked in with slurs of how he deserved
it--because he was a "felon"--although from the reports, this "reporter"
got his information directly from the cops in question, in the same manner
all the mainstream "reporters" got their "news" about the Branch Davidians
from the BATF. The NJST kicked, hit, sprayed with pepper spray. Just read
Mr. Shaefer's own words about what happened to him.

Does this ring any bells to anyone? Isn't this precisely how the Jews were
treated in Germany when Hitler came to power? Apparently "gun owners" are
the new Jews, the new victims. Can't let the little people have guns.

I cannot write about this: I refuse to be objective over such abuses. Mr.
Schaefer's story follows. A contact with friends of his, and a phone number
for his attorney comes next. He will have a defense fund. Contribute what
you can. If you do not, then do not expect help from others when it happens
to you.

I would have liked to have written a good "news" article about this, but
frankly, I am too angry to do so. Emotions do have a place in "news"
reporting. I want you all to react, and strongly.

Unless, of course, you want to live in the Nationalist Socialist Germany of
Hitler's time. Or in the Communist regime of Good Ol' Uncle Joe Stalin. Both
men are responsible for the murder of millions. First thing they did was to
take any weaponry away from whom they conside the "serfs." For a time, in
America, we have not been "serfs." Shall we willingly return to that state?
Shall we put up with Gestapo?

It is up to you. The minority of us who are angry, and who hate these
Gestapo attacks will be the first killed. Then your Glorious Leaders will
come for you.

I will not be a slave. Neither will Mr. John Schaefer. Call his attorney,
write to the people with "power" over his case, and help out. Or don't. And
cry later.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Welcome to Gestapo Amerika 2/2
Date: 04 May 1998 19:55:00 -0700


In the words of John Schaefer himself, here's what happened.

"At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machine-gun armed agents of
the NJ State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home screaming
obscenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point. I was ordered to
the floor, and when I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough because of
my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked to the floor, and my back and
neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper yanked on my arm that had been
injured several years ago and I yelled in pain I was Maced [pepper sprayed,
ED] and then kicked in the head at least twice resulting in a bloody lip and
head pain. Of course none of the storm troopers were wearing name tags. We
were forced into our living room, made to stand about in handcuffs for
about four hours in our pajamas while they trashed the house.

"They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my
cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple of
buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this, my
Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA
Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round (the
kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb "practice
bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79 practice grenade
rounds that were on display in my office.

"My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed
and roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked for
some clothes.

"All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons all
over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what they were
doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got another gun nut."
They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating pain from my shoulder
and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what my "fucking problem was."
I was finally taken to the local PD where I was at least treated with a
little respect and compassion.

"I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the
hospital were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain
medication and released. None of the hospital staff could believe what
happened to me.

"When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they had
left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components in my basement.

"We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how we
are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in.

"Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this
terrible time."


Mr Schaefer, by the advice of his attorney, is keeping quiet. A good idea.
You can contact his attorney, however, and learn the address for the defense
fund.


New Jersey links:
Gov. Christine Todd Whtiman (R)
http:/www.state.nj.us/governor/contact.htm

NJ Division of Criminal Justice
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/index.htm
email: [e-mail]

John and Sue Schaefer's Home page:
http://home.sprynet.sprynet/frfrog
(don't bother them personally, they got enough on their plate)

Friends:

[e-mail]
Charles Riggs: http:/www.wk3.com

Mr. Schaefer's attorney, who is also handling his defense fund is Evan
Nappen, in Eatontown, NJ (732-389-8888).


note from Mr. Schaefer to me:


Patty:

Cas asked me to drop you a note.

Sorry I haven't returned your messages but I have been inundated with mail.

I have been asked by my attorney, Evan Nappen, in Eatontown, NJ
(732-389-8888) not to make any comments other than, I am NOT a felon.
PERIOD. Such action is reasonable and prudent in any legal matter.

Evan is also handling the legal defense fund for me.

Thanks for your support.

John Schaefer

--
__________________________________________________
John C. Schaefer         [e-mail]
Excalibur Associates     FAX: [phone]
People's Republic of NJ  http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/frfrog

"He who goes about unarmed in paradise had better
be sure that that is where he is." -- James Thurber
___________________________________________________


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  WACO video -Forwarded
Date: 05 May 1998 08:06:31 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

get gun books and all books at:
http://thePentagon.com/training
(a portion goes to pro-gun groups)

You can use the following link to order the videotape of "Waco: The
Rules of Engagement," the oscar-nominated documentary. small commissions
to pro-gun groups.  non-profit.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0966210506/gunssavelives/


THANKS
--
Don't agonize.  Organize.
http://GunsSaveLives.com


(Opinions here are personal and not those of any organization.)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Chris VanOcur -Forwarded
Date: 05 May 1998 08:53:04 -0700

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Greetings,

If you saw the Cover Story regarding the debate on the right to carry
concealed weapons on Channel 4 as reported by Chris VanOcur on Wed., April
29, you may want to offer Chris VanOcur some feedback.

Here's my personal thoughts on the Cover Story:

Channel 4 has always made an attempt to present a balanced story on the gun
issue.  I've received several media inquiries from Channel 4 asking for my
humble opinion  :)   I've referred them to several incidents of examples of
people using guns for self-defense and/or people who have been positively
affected by guns in their life and they've reported them.  If Channel 4
continues to receive positive feedback from people who believe in the RKBA,
they will most likely continue to present both sides of the story.

Of special interest is that Chris VanOcur told me that he cleared the story
with people who work at the station who have conceal carry permits.  In
dealing with the media with this issue, I've found that many camera crew
members are gun owners and believe in the RKBA.  They just love it when
people stand up to protect the 2nd Amendment and will cover the story if
they have time.

I mean, heck, it sure seems like they're making a lot better effort than
Channel 5--with their latest editorial on "Girls and Guns."

Chris VanOcur's phone number:  975-4413

Chris's E-mail:  [e-mail]

Thanks for your patriotism!

Janalee Tobias  :)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: WalMart Donates to anti-gun cause (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 05 May 1998 12:55:53 -0700

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On May 05, John Wilson wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

Steve Jones wrote:

> ALERT: Wal-Mart Supports Anti-Gun Group in Missouri
>
> This problem is occurring in Missouri, but the issue is national.
> Please
> help.
>
> Missourians against Handgun Violence (MAHV) is the most prominent
> anti-gun
> organization in Missouri, and lobbies against the interests of lawful
> gun
> owners at every turn.  The Spring issue of their  newsletter is on the
>
> street, and contained an item that gun owners may find shocking.  I
> have
> now verified that Wal-Mart intends to financially support this
> organization.
>
> On "Mitzvah Day" this Sunday May 17th, MAHV will have a booth at
> Wal-Mart
> on St. Charles Rock Road in St. Ann Missouri where they will raise
> funds,
> promote trigger locks, and conduct a "say no to guns" art session for
> young
> children.  Im sure the MAHV will have an ample supply of red crayons
> standing by.  Wal-Mart has pledged to match any funds the MAHV raises.
>
> Phone calls and letters to the store manager, a Mr. Tom Yarbrough,
> explained the concerns of gun owners, and offered to provide trained
> firearms experts from the Second Amendment Coalition of Missouri
> (SACMO) to
> set up an educational booth to explain the limitations and the dangers
> of
> misapplying trigger locks, and to show the public how to safely use
> them in
> an overall scheme of safe firearms storage.  Yarbrough declined.

I jusy got off the phone with the store manager Tom Yarbrough, first off
I must say he was extreamly
and causiously NICE to me.

I told him I was very concerned about what I had heard on the internet
about the fund raiser by MAHV
Mr. Yarbrough told me he had only learned of this issue yesterday, and
that he had an NRA member call him
and inform him of this situation. He told me that he told this NRA
member that the issue was not a done deal.
and that the NRA member told him he was going to put it out over the
internet anyway.

I went ahead and told him I was a pro-gunner and an NRA member to get
that out of the way and I told him
I was also a stock holder. I informed him that I was trying to approach
this issue with him as a stock holder.

 I thought this would get better results then the pro-gun stand.  It
don't matter to me what they think motivates
me, all I care about is the end result. I think if the stock holders as
well come out and express their concern
it will help greatly.

He listened to everything I said to him, I told him I could not believe
Wal-Mart would get involved
in such a politicaly charged issue and that it was unwise to open
themselves up to such an issue as this.
I expressed to him that it would be best if Wal-Mart would just stick to
helping out the Childrens
Merical Network and like causes. He told me that thats one of the
reasons he was doing this in the
first place because Wal-Mart lets individual stores donate so much money
per year to charities.
( which is indeed true )  But I told him I do not think that this gun
control organization is considered a charity
and that you would not even be able to deduct contributions on your
tax's.

He told me that this group did have a tax letter, so I guess he was
saying it was classified as a charity.

I asked him to reconsider and elect not to hold this event and he said
they were going to rethink thier decision
to hold this thing. He told me that his store was approched by this
organization and was asked if they could
just setup a booth and hold a small fund raiser.  I then questioned
their decision to match the funds which led
us to the point I typed above about the Miracle Network. I myself DO NOT
believe this organization is
listed as a charity but that is just my belief nothing more.


Thats what happened on my end, my own personal opinion of the matter :::

Remember this is my opinion of mine based on how this guy acted with me
on the phone.

The manager seemed scared, like he got himself into something far bigger
then he ever expected. He seemed willing
to cave in if he caught enough slack from this.  He seemed really
worried about the fallout from this since
it has been posted on the Internet.


Of course I helped out his fear, I told him I have been on Internet for
a long time and when something like
this gets spread on the internet, he would have about 2 days before his
phone will be jammed. He seemed
quite concerned.


I know Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart has and will at times yank a manager from
a store or demote them for screwups
like these. They pretty much let the managers of the stores handle their
own local stuff pertaining to this sort of thing.
That is as long as they dont screwup. I dont think this will result in
something happening like this though. Usually
they will be warned a number of times before something drastic happens.
But then again mabye this guy already
messed up in the past, you never know.


Anyway everyone needs to call the local store where this is happening
and the Wal-Mart headquarters.
It may help prevent this in the future.

John
[e-mail]

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wal-Mart boycott again
Date: 05 May 1998 13:07:05 -0600

>ALERT: Wal-Mart Supports Anti-Gun Group in Missouri
>
>This problem is occurring in Missouri, but the issue is national.  Please
>help.
>
>Missourians against Handgun Violence (MAHV) is the most prominent anti-gun
>organization in Missouri, and lobbies against the interests of lawful gun
>owners at every turn.  The Spring issue of their  newsletter is on the
>street, and contained an item that gun owners may find shocking.  I have
>now verified that Wal-Mart intends to financially support this organization.
>
>On "Mitzvah Day" this Sunday May 17th, MAHV will have a booth at Wal-Mart
>on St. Charles Rock Road in St. Ann Missouri where they will raise funds,
>promote trigger locks, and conduct a "say no to guns" art session for young
>children.  Im sure the MAHV will have an ample supply of red crayons
>standing by.  Wal-Mart has pledged to match any funds the MAHV raises.
>
>Phone calls and letters to the store manager, a Mr. Tom Yarbrough,
>explained the concerns of gun owners, and offered to provide trained
>firearms experts from the Second Amendment Coalition of Missouri (SACMO) to
>set up an educational booth to explain the limitations and the dangers of
>misapplying trigger locks, and to show the public how to safely use them in
>an overall scheme of safe firearms storage.  Yarbrough declined.
>
>After taking time to consider the matter, Mr. Yarbrough has specifically
>refused to amend his plans.  Yarbrough said of MAHV "They are against
>handgun violence, not against handguns."  And then asked, "Are you an NRA
>member?"  When I said yes, he said "Oh."  I don't know what his purpose in
>asking that question was, and don't know if NRA members should feel less
>welcome in his store than other customers.
>
>So, we can expect MAHV to deliver their message of fear and ignorance to
>the public at the St. Ann store on the 17th, and can further expect WalMart
>to write them a check at the end of the day.  Speaking as a gun owner and
>frequent Wal-Mart customer, I am outraged that any place I shop would take
>the profit from my business and turn it against me like this.  I will not
>stand for it, and know you will not either.
>
>Wal-Mart national HQ has specifically refused to address the issue.  If you
>dont mind the long wait on hold, you might want to share your thoughts on
>that.  The number is (800) WAL-MART (925-6278).  More effective might be
>calls or letters to the district manager and the store manager:
>
>Ronny Hayes, District Manager
>1307 Highway K
>OFallon, MO 63366
>[phone]
>
>Tom Yarbrough, store manager
>10835 St. Charles Rock Road
>St. Ann, MO 63074
>[phone] or fax at [phone].
>
>You may also want to email copies to [e-mail] in order to
>demonstrate to their national headquarters the fact that this is a matter
>of concern to gun owners.
>
>Do not let this pass without your voice being heard.
>
>As I write this, there are only 13 days until the event.   If we respond
>immediately, it may well be possible to convince Wal-Mart that it would be
>a mistake to provide financial support to an anti-gun organization.  Last
>year, activism played a role in getting a local business organization to
>rescind their financial support of MAHV.  It is time to act again.  Call or
>write today.
>
>I originally spoke with Yarbrough on Wednesday April 12th.  After having
>been given adequate time to consider my input, on Monday May 4th he
>encouraged me not to alert you, saying "We may change our minds, and you
>would look pretty silly protesting an event that isn't going to happen."
>Of course that was merely a tactic designed to keep us quiet.  I'm not
>about to let that happen.
>
>If anyone gets any form of verbal or written response either locally or
>nationally, I'd appreciate a copy or brief summary.  I can be reached at
>[e-mail], or faxed at 314-451-5624.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Steve Jones                     | "Outdoor Guide Magazine" - Hunting  |
>| [e-mail]          | & Fishing in Missouri & Illinois.   |
>| http://www.evenstar.com/sjones/ | Call [phone] for a free copy. |
>|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
>|  "KTRS OUTDOOR GUIDE".  Live hunting & fishing talk Sunday evenings   |
>|  from 7 till 8 Central time at http://www.a-zuc.com/azlive.ram using  |
>|  RealAudio from http://www.real.com.  Talk Radio St. Louis, 550-KTRS. |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------


This part is from Sarah:

I received the following text of the MAHV newsletter article from a reader
yesterday, but at that time was not able to confirm at what level this
decision was made.  If, as noted above, it is a national policy (or the
national HQ refuses to intervene), then I'd agree that a nationwide
protest/boycott is indicated.

>From: Missourians Against Handgun Violence newsletter spring 1998
>
>Making a Difference
>
>MAHV has 60 trigger locks, donated  by Master Lock.
>They are available free of charge to people who have
>children and guns in their home. Donations are appreciated
>to allow us to continue this program. The cost of each lock is
>approximately $8.
>
>Shaare Emeth is asking for volunteers to help distribute MAHV
>information and trigger locks. On "Mitzvah Day," May 17, MAHV
>will have a booth at WalMart on St. Charles Rock Road to
>encourage parents to buy locks for their guns at home.
>There will be a "Say No to Guns" art session for younger children.
>
>A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY To Help
>
>WalMart will match any funds MAHV can raise, so we are
>looking for baked goods donations for May 17. If you can
>contribute cookies, cakes, pies or brownies, please call
>MAHV at 997-6301. AND if you have any other ideas for
>money raising at this May 17th event, call MAHV immediately.
>WalMart has generously offered to have their greeters
>stationed at the entrance with donation jars for MAHV.


Since I've also been asked about "Mitzvah Day", I'm including the follwing
commentary.  The opinions expressed are mine alone, and I'm solely
responsible for any errors or misinterpretations.

    There is no such holiday or occasion as "Mitzvah Day"; it's a term made up
by Shaare Emeth.  (Shaare Emeth, by the way, means "Gateway of Truth" - a
name which nicely belies its propagation of politically-correct,
anti-Jewish lies.)  Mitzvah most properly refers to a religious
commandment, i.e. one of the commandments prescribed by G-d in the Bible or
by the rabbis.  More recently a "mitzvah" has taken on the meaning of any
good deed.  As far as I know, a mitzvah is an _individual_ responsibility,
not one that accrues to a group.

    However, a mitzvah fulfilled through wrongdoing is considered an "averah"
or transgression.  I'm not a rabbi, nor in any way qualified to judge such
things, but in my _opinion_, what Shaare Emeth is doing is an averah.
While there is nothing inherently wrong with a trigger lock, if the person
using it is fully informed as to its benefits and risks, that does not seem
to be the intent of MAHV.  If MAHV supports gun control, which appears to
be the case,  then Shaare Emeth is raising funds for a policy which is
responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews at the hands of Russian
czars, Hitler, Stalin, and others just during this century.  And since Jews
are specifically commanded (i.e. a mitzvah)  to consider the plight of
oppressed people everywhere (for we were slaves in Egypt and G-d delivered
us), Jews may also not turn their backs on the genocide of other people
either - roughly 60 million this century - all preceded by gun control.
Thus Shaare Emeth, no matter how well-intentioned, is promoting policy that
is unquestionably evil, and possibly even violating the true commandment to
remember all who are oppressed.

    I have requested confirmation and additional information from Shaare
Emeth.  Depending on their response, polite letters of protest to them,
especially from Jewish gun owners, might be in order.

    For more information on Jews and firearms, check out Jews for the
Preservation of Firearms Ownership, at http://www.jpfo.org

    In the meantime, looks like it's time to start a Wal-Mart boycott.

Sarah








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chris VanOcur -Forwarded
Date: 05 May 1998 13:30:10 -0600

At 08:53 AM 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>If you saw the Cover Story regarding the debate on the right to carry
>concealed weapons on Channel 4 as reported by Chris VanOcur on Wed., April
>29, you may want to offer Chris VanOcur some feedback.
>
>Here's my personal thoughts on the Cover Story:
>
>Channel 4 has always made an attempt to present a balanced story on the gun
>issue.  I've received several media inquiries from Channel 4 asking for my
>humble opinion  :)   I've referred them to several incidents of examples of
>people using guns for self-defense and/or people who have been positively
>affected by guns in their life and they've reported them.  If Channel 4
>continues to receive positive feedback from people who believe in the RKBA,
>they will most likely continue to present both sides of the story.
>
>Of special interest is that Chris VanOcur told me that he cleared the story
>with people who work at the station who have conceal carry permits.  In
>dealing with the media with this issue, I've found that many camera crew
>members are gun owners and believe in the RKBA.  They just love it when
>people stand up to protect the 2nd Amendment and will cover the story if
>they have time.
>
>I mean, heck, it sure seems like they're making a lot better effort than
>Channel 5--with their latest editorial on "Girls and Guns."
>
>Chris VanOcur's phone number:  975-4413
>
>Chris's E-mail:  [e-mail]
>
>Thanks for your patriotism!
>
>Janalee Tobias  :)
>
>


I watched the Channel 4 cover story and thought it was entirely worthless
fluff.  It presented no information, facts, or anything that could be
considered "news", even given the very loose definition of "news" currently
rampant.  It was a collage of images and emotions, nothing else.

The only actual assertion made was my Mr. Edwards, that _when_ Salt Lake
City is plagued by vast numbers of shoot-outs between gun owners, it will
be too late to stop the carnage.  (That's not a direct quote, but as close
as I can remember, and essentially what he said.)  This blatant lie went
completely unchallenged.

Further, while Mr. VanOcur made an _attemtp_ to be fair, his obvious
anti-gun agenda was completely transparent, at least to this viewer.

I have no doubt that Janalee was sincere in working to get positive press
for gun owners in Utah.  But if this is the best press coverage we can get
in Utah, we're in sorry shape.

Chris VanOcur gets a "thumbs down" from this reviewer. <g>

On the other hand, Jerry Andersch has always done an excellent job of
covering firearms issues.

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Fw: The Incident on Long Island -Reply
Date: 05 May 1998 16:55:06 -0700

I am looking for a list of sponsors for the LIRR lie.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NBC's advertisers
Date: 06 May 1998 00:06:35 -0600

<excerpt>The following was forwarded to me by Brian Wilson.  I have not
verified the information, but consider him a reliable source.  Note that
the list does not necessarily include your local sponsors.


Sarah



</excerpt><<<<<<<<


>>>>

<excerpt>X-Sender: [e-mail]

X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)








>LIST OF ADVERTISERS ON BARBARA STREISAND'S RECENT ANTI-GUN MOIVE


 List of Advertisers on NBC's sunday night propaganda movie

>>

>>Advil (pain medicine)

>>Midas mufflers

>>Digiorno pizza's

>>Taco Bell

>>Arm & Hammer

>>Certs breath mints

>>Benadryl allergy medicine

>>Prudential Insurance

>>Almay makeup

>>Right Guard

>>Monistat 3

>>Enterprise car rental

>>MCI

>>Loreal makeup

>>JC Penny

>>Discover card

>>Sears

>>Dr Pepper

>>McDonalds

>>Polaroid

>>Mazda

>>AT&T



Brian Wilson

Talk Show Host/Author

"the little black book on WHITEWATER"

<underline>http://www.brian-wilson.com

</underline>When looking for a reason why things go wrong,

never rule out sheer stupidity.



</excerpt><<<<<<<<



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: WalMart $: Victory!
Date: 06 May 1998 00:14:24 -0600

If you have no idea of what this is about, hit DELETE.  I can't remember
who all wrote to me about this or to whom I sent messages.  Sorry!

To those of you who helped stop the Wal-Mart "Mitzvah Day" abomination, my
sincere thanks and congratulations.

Sarah



>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
>Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:24:34 -0500
>To: FIREARMS Discussion List <[e-mail]>
>From: Steve Jones <[e-mail]>
>Subject: WalMart $: Victory!
>
>To all who helped with the St. Ann Missouri Wal-Mart issue:
>
>What can I say but wow!
>
>A quick and decisive response has apparently won the day.  The district
>manager called me twice this afternoon, but I was in meetings.
>
>Two other people have spoken with the DM and been assured the event has
>been called off.
>
>I will speak with the DM in the morning and post the "post mortem".
>
>Thanks everybody!  Great job.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Steve Jones                     | "Outdoor Guide Magazine" - Hunting  |
>| [e-mail]          | & Fishing in Missouri & Illinois.   |
>| http://www.evenstar.com/sjones/ | Call [phone] for a free copy. |
>|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
>|  "KTRS OUTDOOR GUIDE".  Live hunting & fishing talk Sunday evenings   |
>|  from 7 till 8 Central time at http://www.a-zuc.com/azlive.ram using  |
>|  RealAudio from http://www.real.com.  Talk Radio St. Louis, 550-KTRS. |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  guns in Canada (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 06 May 1998 17:49:56 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

[101]
Feds exaggerate gun crimes: RCMP
By PETER WORTHINGTON
Toronto Sun
April 30, 1998


 When the federal government's controversial gun control law was passed
(Bill
 C-68), a critical factor was statistics attributed to the RCMP that in
1993 there
 were 623 cases of violent crimes involving guns.
 In a country that has some 700 murders a year, this was alarming and
helped
 persuade the influential Canadian Police Association to support the law
that requires all rifles
 and shotguns to be registered between 1998 and 2003 - some seven million
guns owned by
 three million Canadians. It's always been the law to regulate and
register handguns - something
 that doesn't deter criminals, who have no prejudice against illegal
pistols or revolvers. Estimates
 of implementing Bill C-68 range from $85 million to $1 billion-plus.
 The gun law has caused real and imagined rifts in Canada. Hunters,
farmers, assorted gun
 lovers and those in remote areas view the legislation - probably
correctly - as a step toward the
 confiscation of all guns. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and
the territories are
 challenging the law. Meanwhile, the anti-gun lobby views the law as a
civilized curb on violence
 and a means of cutting down criminal and domestic violence.
 Under Access to Information laws, Reform MP Garry Breitkreuz
(Yorkton-Melville) has
 released an extraordinary letter written last year by RCMP Commissioner
J.P.R. Murray,
 accusing the federal justice ministry of misrepresenting RCMP crime
statistics involving firearms.

 In RCMP investigations of 88,162 violent crimes during 1993, "our
statistics showed that there
 were 73 firearms involved in violent crime compared to the department of
justice findings of
 623 firearms involved in violent crime," Commissioner Murray wrote in
July, 1997.
 He added that it was "of particular concern that the minister of justice
and the Canadian
 Association of Chiefs of Police relied on these statistics (attributed to
the RCMP) while Bill
 C-68 was being processed in Parliament." The firearms research unit of
the justice department
 used the phony statistics in its reports.
 Rather than a misprint or typographical error, it seems a deliberate
attempt to mislead. Murray
 noted that the firearms unit claimed 51% of violent firearm crimes
involved rifles or shotguns,
 while in 19% of firearm crimes handguns were used - giving momentum to
the campaign to
 register or ban rifles and shotguns.
 Murray pointed out that 51% of crimes involving long guns boils down to
barely 37 in all of
 Canada - out of a total 88,162 violent crimes, or .08%. Hardly a
statistic that justifies the mania
 for long gun registration and control.
 Unmentioned by the government, but remarked by Commissioner Murray was
that of 333
 homicides and attempted homicides investigated by the RCMP in 1993, a
grand total of six
 involved firearms. Hardly a crisis of gun violence.
 Murray's polite but firm "request" that "something must be done to
correct the (erroneous) data
 or remove it from circulation," has largely been ignored. As well, the
Canadian Firearms Centre
 didn't make corrections and used the false statistics in a 1995 report on
firearms.
 In a letter dated March 30, 1998, Scott Newark, executive officer of the
Canadian Police
 Association, wrote Justice Minister Anne McLellan, saying it was "deeply
disturbing" that the
 RCMP found it "necessary to urge correction of grossly flawed and
misleading firearms data
 prepared by the justice department ... "
 Worse, the police association says, is that when the RCMP pointed out the
error and tried to
 meet with the Canadian firearms people, "the RCMP were rebuffed in their
efforts to correct
 the public record which they knew to be false."
 Insisting it was "imperative" that accurate, reliable information on
crimes involving firearms be
 available to Canadians, the police association warned: "Failure to meet
these most basic
 requirements will result in a justifiable lack of confidence amongst
Canadians that the
 government knows what it is doing when it purports to regulate firearms
.. "
 I'd argue that the government knows exactly what it is doing - that its
aim is not so much to
 reduce violent crime, but to take guns from law-abiding citizens when
there's frail evidence that
 gun controls reduce gun crimes, most of which are committed with illegal
guns. Justice officials
 have explained the discrepancy in statistics by saying many of the guns
recovered by police
 weren't actually used in crime - just that they might be.
 Garry Breitkreuz wonders if public servants manipulate, distort and
invent RCMP statistics to
 help achieve questionable political objectives, "How will we ever know
when justice
 department officials are telling the truth?"
 McLellan wasn't justice minister when the false gun crime statistics were
disseminated, but
 seems determined to keep quiet as long as there's no widespread pressure
to explain.
 Western Canada seems especially hostile toward gun controls and more
offended by the
 government's abuse of RCMP statistics than Eastern Canada is. Although
it's a legitimate
 concern, the least expensive, most effective way to reduce the gun
violence is mandatory prison
 sentences for those carrying a gun in a crime.
 Reality is that knives are a more violent threat to the public than guns.
So, probably, are fists,
 baseball bats and frying pans. Registration anyone?



    Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 626-798-6574 |
  ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax [phone] |
  [e-mail]  |  Pasadena, CA  91107  US  |




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  IP: Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in N.Y.,
Date: 06 May 1998 17:51:59 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Source:  US Newswire

Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in N.Y., Conn.
U.S. Newswire
5 May 16:25

 Sarah Brady Statement on Gun Control Debate in New York, Connecticut
 To: City and State desks
 Contact: Naomi Paiss of Handgun Control Inc., 202-289-5784,
          or 800-465-0334 (pager)

   WASHINGTON, May 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is a statement by
Sarah Brady, chair of Handgun Control Inc.:

   "I want to applaud the Connecticut Legislature for unanimously
passing comprehensive measures aimed at protecting children and
keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Connecticut's legislators have
resoundingly said "yes" to protecting children and "no" to pressure
from the gun lobby. In an extraordinary move, every legislator
voted in favor of this impressible package of gun violence
prevention proposals.
   "Once again, Connecticut has led the nation in gun violence
prevention legislation. H.B. 5746, which passed unanimously in the
House on Friday and unanimously in the Senate on Monday, requires
the sale of a child safety locking device with every handgun sale,
expanding the current law which only required the locks on sales at
retail. Of equal importance are provisions which:

   -- trace all guns recovered from crimes;
   -- mandate FBI fingerprint background checks for all gun permit
applicants;
   -- allow private property owners to ban guns on their property;
   -- allow schools to keep all guns off school grounds -- even
concealed license holders;
   -- establish strict criteria for reporting of involuntary
commitments for psychiatric reasons;
   -- prohibit gun ownership of persons convicted of serious
offenses when they were juveniles; and
   -- prohibit carrying firearms by intoxicated persons.

   "Any one of the provisions standing alone would be a significant
improvement in Connecticut's law. The complete package, and the
fact the every legislator supported them, is a major victory for
supporters of reasonable gun control legislation. I especially
want to thank Senate Majority Leader George Jepsen (D-27) and the
Chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Michael Lawlor (D-99), for
sponsoring and shepherding this legislation. Connecticut has a
history of bipartisan support for gun control legislation, the vote
on H.B. 5746 should set a new standard for our nation.
   "I also want to commend the New York State Assembly for passing
Child Access Prevention Legislation (A 651). The New York State
Senate should follow the lead of their neighbors in Connecticut and
unanimously pass this responsible legislation. The children of New
York deserve their attention.
   ------
   Handgun Control Inc. (HCI), chaired by Sarah Brady, is the
nation's largest citizens' gun control lobbying organization. Based
in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state
and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns.
Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide
and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect
reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its
affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence,
can be found on the HCI website at http://www.handguncontrol.org.

 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/
 05/05 16:25


Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire
-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
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-----------------------





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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  VPC Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory, Illustrates NRA
Date: 06 May 1998 17:55:22 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Source:  US Newswire

VPC Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory, Illustrates NRA Agenda
U.S. Newswire
4 May 14:34

 Violence Policy Center Says Heston Remarks Inflammatory,
Illustrates NRA 'Far-Right' Agenda
 To: National Desk
 Contact: Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center,
          202-822-8200, ext. 101

   WASHINGTON, May 4 /U.S. Newswire/ -- In a Hollywood press
conference announced for 10:30 a.m. PDT today, NRA First Vice
President Charlton Heston -- billed in the NRA media advisory for
the event as a "civil rights activist" -- is expected to attack the
NBC television movie "The Long Island Incident."
   In response, the Violence Policy Center (VPC) today released the
transcript and video of a December 1997 speech Heston delivered
before the Free Congress Foundation in which he made inflammatory
statements attacking women, gays and lesbians, African-Americans
and Hispanic-Americans.
   Heston, as detailed in a full-page ad in The New York Times this
morning, is expected to challenge Barbra Streisand, the movie's
producer, to a "one-on-one" debate about the Second Amendment. He
is also expected to denounce the film, which aired last night and
told the story of the 1993 Long Island Railroad shooting and the
subsequent campaign for the House of Representatives on a pro-gun
control platform by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.).
   VPC Executive Director Josh Sugarmann states, "Once again the
NRA has revealed its extremist stripes. Will the real Charlton
Heston please stand up? In Hollywood, he calls himself a 'civil
rights activist.' Speaking before ultra-conservatives inside the
Beltway, he talks of 'white pride.' Heston's remarks go beyond gun
control, to the very heart of diversity in America."
   Heston's statements have been endorsed by David Duke, who on his
website states, "I was astounded to read these courageous remarks
by Charlton Heston. I am thankful to hear a man with such high
esteem say essentially the same things for which I have reviled by
the liberal media. His words should be reproduced and put into the
hands of every American."
   Excerpts from the Heston speech follow. The full transcript and
video are available from VPC.
   ------
   Excerpts from NRA First Vice President Charlton Heston's Speech
Before the Free Congress Foundation, December 1997

   The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those
wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some
flinch when I say that. Why? It's true...they were white guys. So
were most of the guys who died in Lincoln's name opposing slavery
in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is
"Hispanic pride" or "black pride" a good thing, while "white pride"
conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man
March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the
Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and
ridicule? I'll tell you why: cultural warfare.

   Mainstream America is depending on you -- counting on you -- to
draw your sword and fight for them. These people (mainstream
America) have precious little time or resources to battle misguided
Cinderella attitudes, the fringe propaganda of the homosexual
coalition, the feminists who preach that it's a divine duty for
women to hate men, blacks who raise a militant fist with one hand
while they seek preference with the other...We've reached that
point in time when our national social policy originates on Oprah.
I say it's time to pull the plug.

   Rank-and-file Americans wake up every morning, increasingly
bewildered and confused at why their views make them lesser
citizens...Heaven help the God-fearing, law-abiding, Caucasian,
middle class, Protestant, or -- even worse -- Evangelical
Christian, Midwest or Southern, or -- even worse -- rural,
apparently straight, or -- even worse -- admittedly heterosexual,
gun-owning or -- even worse -- NRA card-carrying, average working
stiff, or -- even worse -- male working stiff, because not only
don't you count, you're a downright obstacle to social progress.

   I find my blood pressure rising when Clinton's cultural shock
troops participate in homosexual rights fundraisers but boycott
gun-rights fundraisers...and then claim it's time to place
homosexual men in tents with Boy Scouts, and suggest that sperm
donor babies born into lesbian relationships are somehow better
served and more loved. Such demands have nothing to do with
equality. They're about the currency of cultural war -- money and
votes -- and the Clinton camp will let anyone in the tent if
there's a donkey on his hat, or a check in the mail or some yen in
the fortune cookie.

   But you don't see many other Hollywood luminaries speaking out
on this one, do you? It's not because there aren't any. It's
because they can't afford the heat. They dare not speak up for fear
of CNN or the IRS or SAG or the ATF or NBC or even WJC.

   I remember when European Jews feared to admit their faith. The
Nazis forced them to wear six-pointed yellow stars sewn on their
chests as identity badges...So, what color star will they pin on
our coats? There may not be a Gestapo officer on every street
corner yet, but the influence on our culture is just as pervasive.

 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/
 05/04 14:34

Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire

-----------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: Private Arsenals and Public Peril]
Date: 07 May 1998 12:53:48 -0600

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------------- Begin Forwarded Message -------------


Excerpt from today's New England Journal of Medicine

http://www.nejm.org/public/1998/0338/0019/TOC/1.htm

I suggest comments addressed to Dr. Kassirer about the large number of Americans
injured and killed by medical mistakes and drug reactions and interactions along
with additional controls and registration of mistake making doctors be directed
to
[e-mail]   You might also suggest criminalizing the more egregious
cases!

jab



Though we may never know precisely why the boys did what they did, we certainly
know how. They first tried to break into the 11-year-old boy's parents' cache of
firearms, but failing that, took three guns from unsecured places in that house.
They then broke a window in the basement of the same boy's grandfather's house
and removed many more firearms. Positioning themselves in the woods the length
of a football field away from the school door, they opened fire. Telescopic
sights helped their aim: 27 rounds hit their targets. Given these facts, how can
anyone accept the contorted logic that lawful arms ownership has nothing to do
with this tragedy, or that this is not a gun issue? The vast array of powerful
firearms available to the boys is remarkable. Would the carnage have been so
great if the boys had been unable to gain access to the grandfather's private
arsenal? Would so many people be dead if such lethal weapons had not been in
either collection? Parenthetically, it goes without saying that even a single
semiautomatic weapon left loaded, unlocked, and accessible is a dangerous
arsenal in itself.

Does anyone need to have a private arsenal of high-powered weapons? They are of
no value for hunting, and their use for target practice seems dispensable. They
are certainly not needed for protection against crime. Moreover, they are worse

than useless. In recent years, large stashes of firearms have figured
importantly in other major losses of life. Hundreds of guns were found at Waco,
and cash from the sale of stolen weapons was used to build the bomb that
devastated the federal building in Oklahoma City.

Children and adolescents are by definition immature, and many lack judgment.
Life's embarrassments, rejections, and torments may send them into fits of
temper, even rage, and may prompt a desire for revenge. Impulsively, some
children lash out at others and at themselves. Nonetheless, they are only
murderous when they have the means, and a loaded gun is the "perfect tool."

We must ratchet down our nation's firepower. It is time to eliminate
semiautomatic firearms from private homes. The 1994 federal ban on new assault
weapons with high-capacity ammunition clips must be tightened to stop the
manufacture and sale of military weapons modified to have a sporting appearance.
A ban on these large ammunition clips should also include those produced before
1994. Kits to convert semiautomatic weapons into fully automatic machine guns
should be outlawed. A federal code for storing firearms in the home should be
developed, and all firearms should be registered with local authorities. It is
time to end the firearm industry's status as America's last unregulated
industry; a federal agency should be given standard-setting authority over the
industry and its products.

It is also time to lay to rest the myth that keeping firearms in the home
protects people against personal injury. (7) Obvious, serious methodologic
errors in the design of surveys that purport to demonstrate a protective effect
invalidate such conclusions. (8,9) Mass shootings such as the one in Jonesboro
are avoidable, as are local epidemics of gun-related suicide in teenagers. It
would take political will to buck the well-funded lobbies of the gun
manufacturers and the National Rifle Association. So far, unfortunately, few
courageous legislators have stepped up to the plate.

Our children are murdering our children. Oliver North, the former Iran-Contra
figure, now a radio personality, said recently that it would be unconscionable
for gun-control advocates to try to make political hay out of the Jonesboro
shooting. (6) Quite the contrary, in my opinion. Perhaps it is still possible to
derive some good from this unspeakable tragedy.


Jerome P. Kassirer, M.D.




------------- End Forwarded Message -------------





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  piml] Gun-totin' urban Jewish liberal lady (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 08 May 1998 10:03:44 -0700

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Folks---

Thought that you should see this one!

---David

---------- Forwarded message ----------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From Gun-Shy to Target Shooter: A Journey of Discovery
by Riva Freifeld

"Are you ready?" the range officer behind me asks. I nod, and
take one last peek at the row of targets in the sand. The buzzer
goes off. I run forward, draw my Para-Ordnance P-13 from its
nylon holster and line up the sights. I pull the trigger. The
gun goes bang. The steel falls over. My first IPSC match has
begun.

What exactly is a 51 year old half-Canadian New York Jewish
liberal woman, public television producer, doing out on Long
Island on a hot August Sunday with a bunch of mostly younger
guys who do this every weekend? A little over a year ago I was
someone who had never touched a gun, didn't know anyone who
owned guns, and, to the extent that I thought about them at all,
thought only the police should have them. One day my sister
called to tell me that her son had been shot accidentally in the
arm by another kid who was playing with his father's loaded home
defense gun. What outraged both of us was the fact that the
father could not be criminally prosecuted for negligence. So I
decided to make a documentary for PBS about the evils of guns in
our society.

I started my research by calling my ex-husband, a mystery writer
who had always owned a few guns. He suggested I take up target
shooting, so I could get to know gun owners, which would make it
easier for me to get interviews. I went down to New York's
rather seedy Westside Pistol Range, and started the arduous
application process which would result, approximately six months
later, in a license for target shooting only. In the meantime, I
would get some "instruction" from Darren, the range officer.

Later that day, Darren showed me how a Browning Buckmark .22
worked and explained the safety rules. We went out to the firing
line. I pulled the trigger. Bang. This is kind of fun, I
thought, as I went bang a few more times and actually hit the
black circle. It became even more fun as I got better at it. The
next time, I tried a S&W .38, a Beretta .380, then a Browning
Hi-Power. I started to learn that guns themselves are not
inherently evil. I then discovered a forum on CompuServe where
the politics of guns were discussed. I remember reading a few
messages and thinking, these people are saying things that make
a lot of sense. Yes, we do have a right to our own self-defense.
Banning guns won't deprive criminals of them. Having a gun
around isn't going to make people automatically go crazy and
shoot each other. And I thought to myself, becoming competent
with firearms is probably the ultimate thing a woman can do for
self-protection.

But I was picking up something else that concerned me. Most gun
owners seemed to be stereotypical conservatives. Not fiscal
conservatives, not law-and-order conservatives (which I could
relate to), but the kind that make us urban liberals most
uncomfortable, the family values, anti-abortion, Christian
Coalition folks. There seemed to be a lot of talk about
"personal freedom", but it wasn't my idea of freedom. It was
often a code word for something else. They seemed to be
primarily interested in bashing liberals. I had little in common
with
these people. One day I saw a message from a Phill Jackson, of
Democrats for the Second Amendment. He was the first person I
actually contacted. What he said made a lot of sense, and
clarified for me what I had begun to feel. Gun rights and the
right to self-defense are actually part of classical liberalism,
the Jeffersonian kind. This was exciting, because I was already
extremely disenchanted with the Democratic party. I was sick of
the political correctness, sick of their using my tax money to
pay for problems they created. I began to realize that I agreed
with the conservatives on certain issues, that I could actually
talk to ...Republicans!

I then met other gun rights activists on the forum. A bright
articulate engineer from Washington who played a key role in
Speaker Foley's downfall [...]


*** [Stand up and take a well-deserved bow, Mr. Hartman!  ---DMG]


[...] A woman member of an upstate New York
militia. The Jewish moderator of a pro-RKBA internet mailing
list. A top computer programmer for IBM who used to be anti-gun.
What I realized is that all of these people, while claiming to
be conservatives, shared many of my liberal beliefs. Some of
them defined themselves as libertarians, others said "big
government" was what turned them away from the Democratic party.
All of them agreed that the gun issue was paramount. It was a
barometer of government's respect for its citizens.

As my feelings about guns changed, so did the proposal for my
film. I rewrote it. But I soon found that many sources of
funding were now closed to me. Saying anything positive about
guns is unacceptable in the Northeast. I quickly learned why. It
was not about guns, it was about being a liberal or a
conservative. The media only understands the stereotypes. You
can't be associated with anything "those people" believe in. And
the gun issue to them is irrevocably associated with
conservatives. In the meantime, I have acquired a .22, a 9mm,
and a .45. I've taken LFI1, and have started competing. An
outdoor range in Staten Island is where I went for bullseye,
steel plate, and silhouette matches. Most of my friends
disapprove. They don't know what they're missing.

Riva Freifeld lives in New York City's liberal Democratic Upper
West Side. She is a
independent documentary filmmaker and editor.

[PGP stuff snipped]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re:  Wal-mart -Forwarded
Date: 08 May 1998 11:04:37 -0700

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Just received...

>Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with Wal-Mart
>regarding a local fundraiser by the Missourians Against Handgun
>Violence (MAHV).
>
>After reviewing this matter further, we have canceled the event and
>it will not be rescheduled.
>
>We appreciate your interest.
>
>
>Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: News from the GOP convention
Date: 09 May 1998 14:28:10 -0600


I'll write more later, but for now, most interesting to most here is
probably the fact that Senator Stephensen managed to avoid a primary
race.  It is a safe bet the UEA will be pumping a lot of support to
his oppositon as will the gun-phobes--many of whom seem to control the
UEA/NEA.  He will be in need of our support.

Also of interest, Jeremy Freidembaum (I know I've misspelled his last
name) just managed to force a primary against Cannon.

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Agreement reached in landmark Utah land swap
Date: 10 May 1998 08:13:04 -0600

Looks like our good gov, as made a "good" deal for all of us.  BS.

-----Original Message-----


Ravenvolk;
Salt Lake City.  In a rare moment of bipartisanship, Interior Secretary
Bruce
Babbitt and Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt announced an agreement that is being
called
the largest land swap in the history of the continental United States.
Ending
a debate over Utah trust lands that had simmered for six decades.  Babbitt
and
Leavitt broke the deadlock, Friday after intense one-on-one negotiations.

The federal government will get 376,739 acres of Utah schools lands
sprinkled
through national forests, parks and monuments and the mineral rights to
others.
In exchange, Utah schools get $50 million in cash as well as minerals and
145,000 acres outside  the parks and areas proposed for wilderness.

Congress and President Clinton still must approve the deal, which Leavitt
has
called "the largest public land exchange in the continental United States."

Utah also is dropping two lawsuits against the federal gov., one challenging
Clinton's 1996 creation of the 1.7 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument in southern Utah and another seeking a ruling on the value
of 240,000 acres of state land within federal boundaries.

Friday's ceremonial signing was a rare moment in conservative Utah as
Babbitt,
a Democratic cabinet member, was lauded along with the Republican governor
by
Utah's entire Republican congressional delegation.  ( Ohhhhhhhhhh it's a
political thing.)  If the federal gov.,  keeps taking land there will be no
place to shoot, how about that?

                                                Raveness Jerri Lenehan

Daniel 1:4
Children in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skillful in all
wisdom,
an cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability
in
them to stand in the kings palace, and whom they might teach learning and
the
tongue of the chal-de'-ans.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Agreement reached in landmark Utah land swap
Date: 10 May 1998 08:13:49 -0600


Explaination of good land deal

-----Original Message-----


Raveness Jerri--
Let's see if I got this right. Utah trades 376,739 acres of presumably prime
land (otherwise why would the Feds want it) with mineral rights for $50
million cash and 145,000 acres of Federal land. Hmmmm!  Assuming the acre
for acre land being exchanged is equal in value, that means that Utah sold
some of it's school trust lands for just under $216 per acre which includes
the mineral rights. I wonder if they have any more of that $216/acre land
available.
DOG/DVC
Fred
-----Original Message-----


>Ravenvolk;
>Salt Lake City.  In a rare moment of bipartisanship, Interior Secretary
Bruce
>Babbitt and Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt announced an agreement that is being
called
>the largest land swap in the history of the continental United States.
Ending
>a debate over Utah trust lands that had simmered for six decades.  Babbitt
and
>Leavitt broke the deadlock, Friday after intense one-on-one negotiations.
>
>The federal government will get 376,739 acres of Utah schools lands
sprinkled
>through national forests, parks and monuments and the mineral rights to
>others.
>In exchange, Utah schools get $50 million in cash as well as minerals and
>145,000 acres outside  the parks and areas proposed for wilderness.
>
>Congress and President Clinton still must approve the deal, which Leavitt
has
>called "the largest public land exchange in the continental United States."
>
>Utah also is dropping two lawsuits against the federal gov., one
challenging
>Clinton's 1996 creation of the 1.7 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante
>National Monument in southern Utah and another seeking a ruling on the
value
>of 240,000 acres of state land within federal boundaries.
>
>Friday's ceremonial signing was a rare moment in conservative Utah as
Babbitt,
>a Democratic cabinet member, was lauded along with the Republican governor
by
>Utah's entire Republican congressional delegation.  ( Ohhhhhhhhhh it's a
>political thing.)  If the federal gov.,  keeps taking land there will be no
>place to shoot, how about that?
>
>                                                Raveness Jerri Lenehan
>
>Daniel 1:4
>Children in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skillful in all
wisdom,
>an cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability
in
>them to stand in the kings palace, and whom they might teach learning and
the
>tongue of the chal-de'-ans.
>
>






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Salt Lake City Weekly electronic poll on Utah's gun laws.
Date: 11 May 1998 14:29:52 -0600

I received the following from former USSC lobbyist Scott Engen.  My
comments follow his.

>The Salt Lake City Weekly, a local "alternative" newspaper with a stridently
>anti-gun, anti-hunting and anti-conserative editorial slant is conducting an
>electronic e-mail poll on the issue of Utah's concealed firearms laws.
>
>To quote their invitation to make your opinion known on the subject:
>
>"The concealed weapons debate is on fire in Utah-tell us where in Salt Lake
>City you most feel the burning desire for cold steel in the grip of your
>sweaty, shaking palm."
>
>You may give your opinion on firearms freedom and protecting your right to
>protect yourself by carrying a firearm without restriction under the
authority
>of a Utah concealed firearms permit by visiting the their website.
>
>The address is www.slweekly.com
>
>It is suggested that you IMMEDATELY voice your support for maintaining the
>current "without restriction" provisions of Utah law.
>
>Please forward this information IMMEDIATELY to your friends, family members
>and fellow firearms owners so they can participate as well.
>
>Thank you.
>

The comments below are mine.

I checked out the site, but couldn't get any poll to appear.  However, if
you check out "City Beat", you can read David Madison's stridently anti-gun
article "Guns don't kill people, kids do."   (During our interview, I told
Mr. Madison that I believed that the First and Second Amendments were
co-equal.  He told me that was nonsense and that he "didn't buy it".  So
much for unbiased reporting.  HE has rights.  _I_ don't.)

Comments can be sent to [e-mail]

Sarah Thompson
(for myself)




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  [Fwd: Permanent Brady Info] -Forwarded
Date: 11 May 1998 16:44:26 -0700

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 The ATF has published proposed regulations for the PERMANENT Brady
 Law.  You may comment, but comments must be received before May 20.
 Don't guess.  Download the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and
 participate.

 http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/firearms/rules/notice857.htm


--------------C216E2C4ACE--



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  A Surprise -Forwarded
Date: 11 May 1998 16:53:58 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

I did NOT expect to see the conclusion of this article. I was following some
relatively "politically correct" links on the Web, started reading this, and
couldn't believe my eyes.

-----
     A major concern these days is the high crime rate. How much of that is
due to the actual crime rate and how much is due to media sources that
thrive on being alarmist and stressing the bad is a possible subject for
debate, but it's certainly true that crime is a "bad thing" that we should
try to reduce as much as possible.
     The traditional answers all center on police, the legal system, and/or
the prison system. I think those three lumped together are often what is
meant by "the justice system" (though that term is also used to mean just
the courts), so that's how I'll use it here until someone suggests a better
term.
     Speaking as one who has had more opportunities than most (and certainly
more than I ever wanted) to observe our justice system in action, I can say
that I've often wondered what it's for. It is patently obvious to me that
whatever we have all these cops and lawyers for, it certainly is not for the
benefit of the average honest citizen. In fact, I have deduced that the
primary function of our justice system is to keep honest citizens in line.
Go sit in any courtroom for a day and see what cases are typically tried.
The most common will be traffic cases. Notice how our manpower is allocated.
What do police spend their time on? Are overdue library books and illegal
left turns more important than murder and robbery? They are in our justice
system, but is that how you would allocate priorities?
     This is especially obvious around here. I live in a rural area where
local police functions are handled by the county sheriff's department. A
good big chunk of the deputies never leave the office, but handle internal
matters like running the county jail and lining up juries. Of the ones that
actually do get out and ride around, I am told that 90% or better of what
they do is serve papers on people. After that, they spend time on local
speed traps and checking cars for radar detectors (which are illegal around
here for some strange reason). This leaves them with no extra manpower for
dealing with the crack dealers and other assorted crimes. One resident in
this town has had a building of hers demolished by trespassers and vandals
and many others fear for their lives if they go out at night -- or even if
they stay home!
     Again, how would you allocate priorities?
     Okay, I've ranted enough about the problem. How about answers? First of
all, there aren't a whole lot of resources to spend on it. We all know the
Federal government is downsizing (which many, including me, regard as a good
thing). At the local level things are even worse. Here in this town our
annual town budget is so small we almost qualify for food stamps. Given the
whole historic trend of the justice system, more cops, lawyers, and jails
isn't going to be the answer. We need to look more closely at the fundamentals.
     Consider crime as a career alternative.
     It is, you know. Granted it's not a viable alternative for me or you.
The consequences of being caught would be far too great -- we have too much
to lose. But consider, of all the things we're not willing to risk
sacrificing, there are lots and lots of people who don't have those things.
For someone in that position, consider the advantages:

   1.No education requirements.
   2.No previous experience needed.
   3.No startup capital required in most cases, and minimal capital required
in any case.
   4.Flexible work hours.
   5.Be your own boss.
   6.Medical and retirement plans provided free by the government.
   7.Low risk.

     Low risk? Well, yes. The odds of being apprehended at all are very low,
and even if you are arrested you'll get free legal assistance, and the odds
of actually going to jail are pretty low too. On top of that, how bad is
going to jail? The Supreme Court has ruled that it can't be too unpleasant,
and most especially it can't be bad for you.
     Given this state of affairs, it's no wonder that lots of people with
nothing else going for them are opting for crime as a career path. How can
we change it? About the only advantages cited above that can be altered by
an act of political will (meaning your vote) are the benefits package and
the low risk. There are sufficient problems with getting rid of Medicare and
Social Security that it isn't practical as an anti-crime measure, and it
wouldn't work anyway. Muggers would simply be on par with any other
self-employed person in having to provide their own benefits.
     That leaves the low-risk factor as the only thing practical to change.
The usual answer is to increase the risk by hiring more cops and lawyers,
making jails more unpleasant, and so forth, but I've already discussed why
that won't help. Suffice to say that for someone with nothing jail is not a
punishment but a reward, since for some term of years food, clothing, and
housing will be supplied free.
     So here's the answer: Greatly liberalize the concealed-carry laws. Make
it possible (easy, even) for any honest citizen who wants one to tote a gun
in his/her back pocket or purse. Very few will, and very few need to. If
only one percent of the people were packing at any given time, then a mugger
would have a one out of a hundred chance of getting shot at during any given
crime, or an 18% chance of being shot at before mugging twenty people. This
changes crime from a career alternative to a gigantic form of Russian Roulette.
     Oooh, scary!
     Won't a lot of people get shot? Well, yes, but consider who is going to
be shot at. I predict that if, say, New York City went with liberal
concealed carry laws, then very shortly there would be a lot of dead
muggers, and then it would settle down quickly with a much lower crime rate.
People would be more polite, too.
     But won't ordinary citizens start shooting each other if they're all
armed all the time? Well, no. Ordinary citizens still stand to lose too much
if convicted of a crime, and it would still be a crime to shoot somebody
without a darned good reason like self defense. Remember, that's what our
justice system is good at -- keeping honest people in line.
     But isn't it dangerous to take on an armed mugger by yourself? Yep,
sure is. The media has really beaten this one to death over the years.
Remember, just because you could carry a gun doesn't mean you have to. And
even if you are carrying a gun, that doesn't mean you have to use it. Anyone
who wants to would still be perfectly free to be as nonviolent and as
nonthreatening as they like. Anyone who feels differently would be able to
accept the risks if they so decide. It's called making a personal choice,
and it's supposed to be highly regarded in this country.
     What about innocent bystanders? What about them? What about crime
victims, for that matter? Consider that a greatly reduced rate of violent
crime would result in far fewer things to be innocently standing by in the
first place, which results in lower risk for everyone.
     Consider also the innocent bystanders on occasions like the nut who
opened fire in a restaurant in Texas, or the nut who started shooting on a
Long Island commuter train. In both of those cases, the gunman stopped to
reload at least once, giving a perfect opening for an armed innocent
bystander to stop the killing, except there were no armed innocent
bystanders, so lots of other innocent bystanders are now dead.
     So why concealed carry? Why not open carry? (Visions of Gary Cooper
walking down the dusty main street.) A few reasons:

   1.The idea is to increase risk in the mugging lifestyle. Carrying a
visible gun is like putting The Club on your steering wheel. It might keep
your car from being stolen, but it doesn't do much about car theft in general.
   2.A gun can be a provocation, but only if it's visible.
   3.It causes comment, and can make for awkward social situations. This is
undoubtedly the main reason why open carry is unusual in places where it is
legal.
   4.It can make the owner a target. If a madman is scoping out a restaurant
for his little shooting spree, and sees one person carrying openly, guess
where the first shot goes?

     Well anyway, there's my $1.57 (or $0.02 in seasonally adjusted 1965
dollars).



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Payback time for ALL gunowners! (Time to dump Cunneen)
Date: 11 May 1998 17:40:49 -0700

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Is your freedom worth $5? How about $10 or $20?  Do you believe in your
right to defend your family from violent criminals?  Do you believe we
should punish violent  criminals instead of law-abiding gun owners?

 If you answered =93yes=94 to these questions, your help is urgently
needed.  During the next few weeks, gun owners have a unique opportunity
to teach the anti-gunners an important lesson, to remind the Republican
party it cannot ignore gun owners, and to punish a turncoat Republican
who stabbed us in the back.

 Here's what it's all about: In the 1997 session, the California
Legislature nearly passed AB 23, the onerous =93Assault Weapons Ban=94 wh=
ich
would have significantly infringed on our inalienable right to self
defense.  Thanks to the heroic efforts
of the NRA Members Councils, Gun Owners of California, Gun Owners
of America and the NRA, this bill was narrowly defeated.

 But that wasn't the end of it. AB 23 is back, and worse than ever.  Any
handgun which can =93accept=94 a magazine with a capacity of 19 or more
rounds would be an =93assault weapon.=94 Of course, virtually any semi-au=
to
handgun meets this definition.

 Assemblyman Jim Cunneen (24th Assembly District, Santa Clara) voted in
favor of AB 23 each time.  He's a Republican. He's supposed to
understand the Constitution and be on our side. However, despite intense
pressure brought to bear by pro-Second Amendment activists, Assemblyman
Cunneen has steadfastly opposed our right to self defense.

 Here's the good news: Mr. Cunneen is running for re-election next
month.  Here's the better news: Donna Courtwright, his opponent, is a
staunch Second Amendment supporter who regularly attends her local
Member's Council meetings.

 The plan is for gunowners from the whole country to knock Mr. Cunneen
out of the race in the primary stage.  Remember the old saying: As
California goes, so goes the nation.  If we do this, it will get state
and national attention.

 There are two simple steps: (1) make a financial donation (as much as
you can spare) to Donna Courtwright and (2) send a photocopy of your
donation to Mr. Cunneen.  Please be sure to indicate your name, address,
occupation and employer when you
make a donation.  Here are the addresses:

Donna Courtwright
2464 El Camino Real, Suite 34
Santa Clara, CA 95051
[phone]

Assemblyman Jim Cunneen
901 Campisi Way, #300
Campbell, CA 95008
[phone]
--
Steve Silver





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  What I wrote vs. what they print - WASHINGTON POST
Date: 12 May 1998 10:32:52 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

WHAT THEY PRINT:
LET'S SEE IF I GOT BOB THOMPSON'S scorecard correct.

The heroic public health researchers: Brian Wiersema is a "soft-spoken man,
tall and handsome in a Clark Kent-ish way." Arthur Kellermann "speaks with a
warm drawl," while Mark Rosenberg "cracks a tiny smile."

The merchants of death: Gary Kleck is "scornful" and "angry." Paul Blackman
uses information for "rhetorical escalation." Don B. Kates Jr. "has muddied
the waters of truth so thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting task."

My scorecard reads a bit differently. My articles in the peer-reviewed
medical
literature notedmany invalidating errors in the methodology and
interpretation
in Kellermann's research. Is it any wonder that the nation turns to the
Internet to avoid your transparent propaganda? Is there really any doubt who
has muddied the waters of truth?
EDGAR A. SUTER

WHAT I WROTE:

Dear Editor,

Let's see if I got Trigger Point's (Bob Thompson, Sunday, March 29, 1998;
Page
W12) scorecard correct.

The heroic public health researchers:
Wiersema is a "soft-spoken man, tall and handsome in a Clark Kent-ish way."
Teret "talks,"  Wiersema "says,"  Cook "works,"  Wintemute "seeks,"
Christoffel "creates, " and Kellermann "discovers" and "speaks with a warm
drawl" while Rosenberg "evangelizes" while he "cracks a smile."  Public
health
is a "can-do culture" doing "sophisticated data collection."


The merchants of death:
Gun rights advocates "howl."  Kleck is "scornful" and "angry" while his
research is  "deployed"  A "rumpled" Blackman "stockpiles information"  for
"rhetorical escalation."  Kates "damns the many for the sins of the few"  and
"displays no trace of embarrassment over his own relationship with the gun
lobby" and has "has muddied the waters of truth so
thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting task."  I "crow" that Congress
unfunded CDC's incompetent and politicized research and I am the guy who
reached for my pistol because 3 innocent lads were "coming at [me]."

My scorecard reads a bit differently.  As I explicitly told your reporter, I
was attacked by 3 gang-bangers who demanded money as they tried to pin me
against a brick wall before I reached for my pistol.  My first article in the
peer-reviewed medical literature noted four dozen substantive invalidating
errors in the methodology and interpretation in Kellermann's "peer reviewed"
research.  My subsequent articles and publications have also noted
Kellermann's habitual pattern of false and fabricated citations and,
"embarrassment" or not, his membership in Christoffel's radical gun
prohibition group, a group so radical that, in response to a discussion of
Hemenway's flawed and biased methodology in a "peer reviewed" article,
exhorted her associates not to engage in scientific discourse, but to "dig up
some dirt" on our think tank.  "Handsome" Wiersema is the guy who, in the
face
of Washington DC's tripled homicide rate, published "peer reviewed" articles
that pretended DC's gun freeze had reduced homicide and, in attempting to
portray concealed handgun licensing (like mine) as dangerous, "studied" a
couple of Florida cities in which homicide rates increased while ignoring
dramatic statewide homicide rate reductions.  Honesty fares no better in the
hands of the rest of the prohibitionist "usual suspects," but space
limitations intrude.

Is it any wonder that the nation turns to the internet to avoid your
transparent and amusing propaganda?  Is there really any doubt who "has
muddied the waters of truth so thoroughly that wading into them is a daunting
task"?

Still "crowing,"

Edgar A. Suter MD
National Chair
Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc.
5201 Norris Canton Rd. #220
San Ramon CA 94583



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: [[e-mail]: Proposed Court Rules]
Date: 12 May 1998 11:55:49 -0600


THis may be of interest to somebody here.

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Code-Co's INTERNET ACCESS TO UTAH LAW Update
============================================

TOPIC: Changes to Utah Court Rules

The Administrative Office of the Courts requests comments on proposed
amendments to various Utah Court Rules. Changes are being proposed to the
following sets of rules:

  Utah Rules of Civil Procedure
  Utah Rules of Appellate Procedure
  Utah Rules of Evidence
  Code of Judicial Administration
  Rules of Professional Conduct
  Rules of Lawyer Discipline and Disability

The comment period runs from now until July 6, 1998. You can see exactly
what is being changed (no subscription required) by clicking on the
'Proposed Rule
Amendments' link on this page:

  http://www.code-co.com/utah/court




Hope you find this useful.

Byron Harward
Webmaster
Code-Co Law Publishers
1-800-255-5294
[e-mail]

You received this update either because you are as subscriber to our
service or you registered for updates and a free password on our webpage.
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reply to the message with "remove from updates" in the SUBJECT LINE. You
will receive an automatic acknowledgment that your request was received and
we will remove you from the list. Please feel free to use our 800 number to
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If you know others that would like to receive these updates, please have
them register on the web at:
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or email me directly.

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--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns
Date: 12 May 1998 11:59:18 -0600

This was forwarded to me by Howard Last of NY.

>Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns
>
>Opinion in Newsday on McCarthy.
>
>Howard Last
> [begin your Research]
>
>Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy
>
>Matthew Carolan; Raymond J. Keating. Matthew Carolan is executive
>editor at National Review. Raymond J. Keating is chief economist for
>the Small Business Survival Committee.
>
>IF THE recent flap between Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand over
>"The Long Island Incident," says anything, it says that even Ben Hur
>would be hard pressed to defeat Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-Mineola) this
>fall. The suffering she endured in the Long Island Rail Road massacre
>has even her most ardent opponents at the National Rifle Association
>walking on eggshells when criticizing her legislative responses to her
>tragedy. Yet unless criticisms are made, McCarthy's re-election
>campaign, to the chagrin of many, will be a sequel.
>    Local Republicans, including Assem. Greg Becker (R-Lynbrook),
>McCarthy's likely opponent, cannot win a popularity contest or a debate
>about constituent service. McCarthy still enjoys too much good will for
>that. Becker has no choice but to address McCarthy's image and take
>advantage of his opportunities. Politics is about defining your
>opponent.
>    For example, McCarthy's voting record shows she is liberal. She has
>an 80 percent rating from the leftist Americans for Democratic Action
>and a 16 percent rating from the American Conservative Union, based on
>her support for the National Endowment for the Arts, for cuts in the
>military budget, and voting against school choice and parental
>notification in family planning matters, etc. She is also, as
>Streisand's film demonstrated, a darling of the liberal media. The
>film's fictitious elements  -  i.e., distorting Second Amendment history
> -  were defended in some quarters as necessary "propaganda" to combat
>the evil NRA.
>     That leads to the issue of guns. McCarthy made her name by
>attacking predecessor Rep. Dan Frisa's vote against the federal ban on
>so-called "assault weapons," and she continues to demonize the NRA after
>tragedies like those at the observation deck of the Empire State
>Building and in Jonesboro, Ark. But making law in response to tragedies
>perpetrated by disturbed people is legislating by hard case, which is
>ineffective.  No piecemeal legislation can prevent such tragedies, only
>a total ban on guns. That in turn leads to dangers of tyranny foreseen
>by the founding fathers  -  and carried out by this century's madmen who
>killed millions of people.
>    Liberal antigun activists write bad laws the same way they try to
>reform health care, with an eye toward failure so as to whip the
>populace into accepting stronger, more restrictive legislation.  The
>"assault weapon" about which McCarthy claims such outrage is a case in
>point. Contrary to popular belief, it is not an automatic weapon like a
>machine gun, and as a class is not significant in crime. The class is
>based entirely on what the gun looks like, not how it shoots. The ban
>has proved a triumph of symbolism over substance, and a failure, which
>only harasses law-abiding gun owners.
>    Becker must raise these and other aspects of the gun issue because
>McCarthy surely will. If he is to defeat this "national icon," he has to
>become a national leader on this and other issues, including the very
>nature of federal law itself,  which cannot always be written, as
>McCarthy says, "for the children."  It makes  -  for him  -  a
>tremendous burden, but also a tremendous opportunity.
>    A final word about children. McCarthy voted against the
>partial-birth abortion ban, despite the protestations of the American
>Medical Association that it was medically unnecessary. She told The New
>York Times Sunday Magazine that her decision was tearful. But in the
>end, it all came back to the same thing, the Carolyn McCarthy myth: "I
>started to think about gun violence," she said. Her support for abortion
>was about "backing" mothers, thereby stopping the "cycle of violence,
>which contributes to child abuse, and all the other things that go with
>it."
>    As the Times reporter noted, for Carolyn McCarthy, "everything comes
>back to guns"  -  even defending the violence of abortion. Greg Becker,
>take heed.
>
>Copyright 1998, Newsday Inc.
>
>Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy., pp A34.
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Administrative rules committee review of State Hospital Gun ban
Date: 12 May 1998 12:46:43 -0600


I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their
comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested
the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic.

Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on
the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee.
The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State
Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public
comment.  This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior
meeting's minutes.  I encourage as many of you as possible to be at
the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective.

Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review
Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it.  This could be a
good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc.
Sen Stephenson chairs this committee.

Once again:

Monday, May 18th, 9:00am
State Capital, Room 305.

Get there early to get a good seat.

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  It's a free market! -Forwarded
Date: 13 May 1998 13:45:41 -0700

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<excerpt forwarded under free use>

     ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - A gun-swap organized by an Orlando radio
station nearly misfired Wednesday when local bad guys offered cash instead
of sneakers to youths turning in their firearms.
     Russ Rollins, host of the Russ & Bo Show on WTKS-FM, persuaded local
stores and athletes to donate high-priced sports shoes for the "Kicks for
Guns" swap. Kicks is a slang word for the shoes.
     "This was a pretty relaxed afternoon until we heard people were trying
to buy the guns," Orlando Police Chief Will Kennedy told Reuters.
     Individuals set up shop a block away and were offering kids cash
instead of sneakers for their guns.
     "They were all over me," said 14-year-old Shawn, showing off the .38
caliber revolver he was about to hand over to police at the Florida Citrus
Bowl.
     "One guy wanted to give me $50. Then another guy said $70. Then another
guy said $80."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns -Forwarded -Forwarded
Date: 13 May 1998 13:56:50 -0700

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This was forwarded to me by Howard Last of NY.

>Subject: Excellent piece on McCarthy and guns
>
>Opinion in Newsday on McCarthy.
>
>Howard Last
> [begin your Research]
>
>Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy
>
>Matthew Carolan; Raymond J. Keating. Matthew Carolan is executive
>editor at National Review. Raymond J. Keating is chief economist for
>the Small Business Survival Committee.
>
>IF THE recent flap between Charlton Heston and Barbra Streisand over
>"The Long Island Incident," says anything, it says that even Ben Hur
>would be hard pressed to defeat Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-Mineola) this
>fall. The suffering she endured in the Long Island Rail Road massacre
>has even her most ardent opponents at the National Rifle Association
>walking on eggshells when criticizing her legislative responses to her
>tragedy. Yet unless criticisms are made, McCarthy's re-election
>campaign, to the chagrin of many, will be a sequel.
>    Local Republicans, including Assem. Greg Becker (R-Lynbrook),
>McCarthy's likely opponent, cannot win a popularity contest or a debate
>about constituent service. McCarthy still enjoys too much good will for
>that. Becker has no choice but to address McCarthy's image and take
>advantage of his opportunities. Politics is about defining your
>opponent.
>    For example, McCarthy's voting record shows she is liberal. She has
>an 80 percent rating from the leftist Americans for Democratic Action
>and a 16 percent rating from the American Conservative Union, based on
>her support for the National Endowment for the Arts, for cuts in the
>military budget, and voting against school choice and parental
>notification in family planning matters, etc. She is also, as
>Streisand's film demonstrated, a darling of the liberal media. The
>film's fictitious elements  -  i.e., distorting Second Amendment history
> -  were defended in some quarters as necessary "propaganda" to combat
>the evil NRA.
>     That leads to the issue of guns. McCarthy made her name by
>attacking predecessor Rep. Dan Frisa's vote against the federal ban on
>so-called "assault weapons," and she continues to demonize the NRA after
>tragedies like those at the observation deck of the Empire State
>Building and in Jonesboro, Ark. But making law in response to tragedies
>perpetrated by disturbed people is legislating by hard case, which is
>ineffective.  No piecemeal legislation can prevent such tragedies, only
>a total ban on guns. That in turn leads to dangers of tyranny foreseen
>by the founding fathers  -  and carried out by this century's madmen who
>killed millions of people.
>    Liberal antigun activists write bad laws the same way they try to
>reform health care, with an eye toward failure so as to whip the
>populace into accepting stronger, more restrictive legislation.  The
>"assault weapon" about which McCarthy claims such outrage is a case in
>point. Contrary to popular belief, it is not an automatic weapon like a
>machine gun, and as a class is not significant in crime. The class is
>based entirely on what the gun looks like, not how it shoots. The ban
>has proved a triumph of symbolism over substance, and a failure, which
>only harasses law-abiding gun owners.
>    Becker must raise these and other aspects of the gun issue because
>McCarthy surely will. If he is to defeat this "national icon," he has to
>become a national leader on this and other issues, including the very
>nature of federal law itself,  which cannot always be written, as
>McCarthy says, "for the children."  It makes  -  for him  -  a
>tremendous burden, but also a tremendous opportunity.
>    A final word about children. McCarthy voted against the
>partial-birth abortion ban, despite the protestations of the American
>Medical Association that it was medically unnecessary. She told The New
>York Times Sunday Magazine that her decision was tearful. But in the
>end, it all came back to the same thing, the Carolyn McCarthy myth: "I
>started to think about gun violence," she said. Her support for abortion
>was about "backing" mothers, thereby stopping the "cycle of violence,
>which contributes to child abuse, and all the other things that go with
>it."
>    As the Times reporter noted, for Carolyn McCarthy, "everything comes
>back to guns"  -  even defending the violence of abortion. Greg Becker,
>take heed.
>
>Copyright 1998, Newsday Inc.
>
>Taking Up Arms Against Rep. McCarthy., pp A34.
>

-




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Administrative rules committee review of State Hospital Gun
Date: 13 May 1998 13:57:42 -0700

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I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their
comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested
the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic.

Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on
the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee.
The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State
Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public
comment.  This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior
meeting's minutes.  I encourage as many of you as possible to be at
the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective.

Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review
Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it.  This could be a
good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc.
Sen Stephenson chairs this committee.

Once again:

Monday, May 18th, 9:00am
State Capital, Room 305.

Get there early to get a good seat.

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Fwd: Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun -Forwarded
Date: 13 May 1998 16:07:34 -0700

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==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
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>Subject: Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun
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>From the Administrator

The deadly mix of kids and guns continues to take its toll on the
lives of our youth, their families, and communities.

"Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" will premiere the week of May 16
on Public Broadcasting System (PBS) stations across the Nation.
The
PBS program will examine why kids are carrying guns in cities and
small towns, their devastating impact, resolving conflict
peacefully, coping with losing a loved one to gun violence, and
how
teens are taking action to get guns out of their communities.

The special will air on In the Mix, a national PBS weekly series
for
teens, and will be hosted by actor Billy Baldwin, rap artist Chuck
D, and In Mix reporter Andrea Barrow.

"Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" profiles teen ex-gang members in
Los Angeles who carried a gun and were seriously injured in gun
violence incidents. These same teens are now part of Teens on
Target, a program where they are trained to go into schools and
conduct workshops with students to show the real effects of gun
violence and to change their attitudes.

Next, In the Mix travels to the suburbs of New York to look at
kids
carrying guns outside of the city. In the Mix sees the pain of
losing a loved one to gun violence through the eyes of Victor who
lost his cousin during the production of this In the Mix special.
Victor, who used to carry a gun, talks about the anger he feels
following his cousin's death.

Barrow, whose friend died of a gunshot wound, sits in on a coping
session with a social worker and other teens who are dealing with
losing a loved one to gun violence. Later, In the Mix follows them
to The Door Youth Center for a performance of "Free Floating
Anger,"
a scene on gun violence, followed by a discussion in which teens
speak out on self defense, hanging out with the wrong crowd, and
how
to walk away from a fight.

In the Mix, then, travels to Washington, DC, to catch up with
Sarah
Brady, Chair of the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence. She points
out ways teens can get involved to help pass antigun legislation
and
urges them to raise awareness among adults. An In the Mix montage
highlights programs where teens have worked to reduce gun violence
in their communities.

Please check the listings for your local PBS station for the time
and date "Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun" may air in your area.

Further information about the program and related resources,
including a free Discussion Guide, is available from the PBS Web
site at http://www.pbs.org/wnet/mix. The site also provides
information about the In the Mix Gun Violence Prevention Contest.




===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Party Resolutions
Date: 14 May 1998 13:18:06 -0700

Some of the folks very involved in the creation of the resolutions
presented at the late Republican State Convention have informed me that
the POWERS THAT BE have decided to re-write the resolutions passed
at that convention by forming an ad hoc committee during a meeting of
the Republican State Central Committee.  The meeting will occur at 10:00
AM in Room 303 at the State Kapital.  Mssrs. Bishop, Hatch, Leavitt et al
feel that the resolutions will not stand and will not become party dogma.
The resolution people are organizing a gathering of resolution
stakeholders to express indignation at the Central Committee meeting and
will gather about 15 minutes before (9:45 AM) outside the meeting room
(Rm. 303).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Party Resolutions
Date: 14 May 1998 13:41:35 -0600

At 01:18 PM 5/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Some of the folks very involved in the creation of the resolutions
>presented at the late Republican State Convention have informed me that
>the POWERS THAT BE have decided to re-write the resolutions passed
>at that convention by forming an ad hoc committee during a meeting of
>the Republican State Central Committee.  The meeting will occur at 10:00
>AM in Room 303 at the State Kapital.  Mssrs. Bishop, Hatch, Leavitt et al
>feel that the resolutions will not stand and will not become party dogma.
>The resolution people are organizing a gathering of resolution
>stakeholders to express indignation at the Central Committee meeting and
>will gather about 15 minutes before (9:45 AM) outside the meeting room
>(Rm. 303).


Thanks for the info.  But what DAY is this meeting being held?
If it's Monday, I'll be there, assuming the Legislative Rules Committee is
finished discussing the Utah State Hospital gun ban by 9:45 or 10.

Sarah

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Utah State Hospital Gun Ban hearing
Date: 14 May 1998 14:04:23 -0600

Charles Hardy previously posted the following, so I'll just repeat it:
(Thanks, Charles!)

>I submitted a comment to the State Mental Hospital during their
>comment period on their proposed total gun ban in which I protested
>the rule and asked to be kept informed of hearings, etc on the topic.
>
>Becuase of that I just received a phone call from an Art Hunsaker on
>the staff of the Legislative Administrative Rules Review Committee.
>The Committee will be meeting next Monday, the 18th, at 9:00 am, State
>Capital Room 305, to review this proposed rule and take public
>comment.  This is the first item on the agenda after approval of prior
>meeting's minutes.  I encourage as many of you as possible to be at
>the meeting to provide the law-abiding-gun-owners' perspective.
>
>Bear in mind that this is the same committee that could review
>Gov. Mikey's public employee gun ban and overturn it.  This could be a
>good warm-up session for getting to know legislators, process, etc.
>Sen Stephenson chairs this committee.
>
>Once again:
>
>Monday, May 18th, 9:00am
>State Capital, Room 305.
>
>Get there early to get a good seat.


After some further research, I've found out two other things of which we
should be aware.

1) The rules committee focuses ONLY on whether a rule conforms with state
law.  Therefore any testimony should address the reasons why this rule
violates state law.  There is no need to get into any other issues, such as
the evidence that concealed carry decreases violent crime.

2) Any group may propose a rule change, and the committee must consider and
hold hearings on such a proposed rule change.  So if you belong to a group
which is legitimately concerned with this issue, encourage the group to
submit a proposal that protects the rights of law-abiding gun owners.  I
believe the proposals should be sent to the same address as comments, but I
need to check on that for sure.

That address is:
Danette Faretta-Brady
Human Services
Mental Health, State Hospital
1300 East Center Street
PO Box 270
Provo, UT 84606
[phone]
[phone]-fax

The sections of Utah Code that deal with this issue are:
76-8-311.1, 76-8-311.3

Hope this is of some help!

Sarah
(for myself)


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens!
Date: 14 May 1998 14:19:50 -0600

"I was just following orders."

Does this sound familiar?

[home page]
[Image]

  Top News           Charge in Ruby Ridge Case Dismissed

  Sports             BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- A federal judge today dismissed
                     state involuntary manslaughter charges against FBI
  Lotteries          sharpshooter Lon Horiuchi, who killed the wife of
                     white separatist Randy Weaver during the 1992 siege
  International      at Ruby Ridge, Idaho.

  National           U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge accepted the Justice
                     Department argument that Horiuchi was acting in the
  Washington         line of duty when he fired and was protected by the
                     Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, in that he
  Business           was working within the scope of his job.

  Wall Street        Boundary County Prosecutor Denise Woodbury charged
                     Horiuchi last August with firing the shot that went
  Entertainment      through the cabin door and killed Vicki Weaver as she
                     held her baby daughter.
  Health/Science
                     It was the third death in the 11-day standoff that
  Regional           began when federal marshals maneuvering around the
                     isolated mountain cabin trying to arrest Weaver on a
                     gun charge encountered Weaver's son, Samuel, and his
                     dog. An exchange of gunfire left the 14-year-old boy
                     and Deputy Marshal William Degan dead.

                     Woodbury maintained Horiuchi acted negligently.
                     Horiuchi contended throughout that he was following
                     the procedures set out for dealing with the Ruby
                     Ridge confrontation.

                     ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't
                     have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because
                     he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of
                     the attorney's who represented Weaver during the
                     criminal case against him five years ago.

                     ``That seems absurd,'' Peterson said. ``This clearly
                     isn't a vindication of Horiuchi. It's like the
                     Simpson verdict. We all knew he did it. There's just
                     nothing we can do about it.''

                     Woodbury did not immediately respond to a telephone
                     call requesting comment. But Robert Huntley, the
                     former Idaho Supreme Court justice who was one of the
                     attorneys representing Horiuchi, speculated that an
                     appeal was unlikely.

                     ``I would be surprised if there was anyone who would
                     want to put up the money for an appeal because the
                     judge wrote a very carefully thought-out opinion
                     based on factual circumstances,'' Huntley said.

                     Weaver, who is now living in Montana and writing a
                     book about the incident, and associate Kevin Harris
                     were acquitted of all federal charges, including
                     murder, resulting from the siege. A state charge of
                     murder against Harris filed last August was dismissed
                     under the double jeopardy protection.

                     Another Horiuchi attorney, Patricia Maher, maintained
                     the agent fired with the understanding that Harris
                     was holding a rifle outside the cabin, that Harris
                     was a suspect in Degan's killing and that Harris
                     might open fire on an FBI helicopter that was
                     circling overhead at the time.

                     And the fact that he was charged with involuntary
                     manslaughter meant he acted without malice, she said.

                     The U.S. Justice Department decided in 1994 against
                     prosecuting Horiuchi, or any of his FBI superiors and
                     reaffirmed the decision last year.

                     Larry Potts, once the FBI's No. 2 official, and his
                     chief aide, Danny Coulson, were accused of destroying
                     records to cover up the identity of the official that
                     allowed agents to shoot at any adult male seen
                     outside the Weaver cabin. Potts was suspended and
                     ultimately denied the bureau's No. 2 job.

                     E. Michael Kahoe, former chief of the violent crimes
                     section, was sentenced to 18 months in prison for
                     destroying a report criticizing the bureau's role in
                     the shootout.

                     A $10 million lawsuit filed by Harris against the
                     federal government is pending. Weaver filed a similar
                     lawsuit, which last year resulted in a $3.1 million
                     settlement.

                     =03AP-NY-05-14-98 1559EDT

                     Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
                     This material may not be published, broadcast,
                     rewritten, or redistributed.

                                       Home | Top of Page

05/14

NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is
distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens!
Date: 14 May 1998 16:13:18 -0600

S. Thompson wrote:
>
>                      ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't
>                      have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because
>                      he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of
>                      the attorney's who represented Weaver during the
                                ^^^^^^?
This was written by the AP?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  #Death Trap:  Oklahoma City#
Date: 14 May 1998 17:16:32 -0700

Recently I ordered a book by Chuck Harder & JD Cash, titled #Death Trap:
 Oklahoma City#  This book is an extensive investigation of the bombing
and subsequent events of the OK City bombing.

Because of a shipping mix up I received and paid for two copies.  I called
the company that sold me the book and I can return it.  However, if
anyone is interested in purchasing the extra copy before I send it back,
call me at 339-1499.  The price including S&H is $23.45.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Federal Agents gain "right" to murder innocent citizens!
Date: 14 May 1998 18:29:39 -0600

At 04:13 PM 5/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>S. Thompson wrote:
>>
>>                      ``I think it's a travesty the people of Idaho can't
>>                      have their day in court with Lon Horiuchi because
>>                      he's a federal agent,''said Chuck Peterson, one of
>>                      the attorney's who represented Weaver during the
>                                ^^^^^^?
>This was written by the AP?
>

Yup.  Got at least two copies now, and they all have the same "typo",
assuming you want to give those illiterate idiots the benefit of the doubt.

Sarah

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Alert! Heritage River fiasco (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 15 May 1998 09:59:08 -0700

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There goes our Hunting and Fishing.....

On May 12, Josh Amos wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

 Please pass this on!

Josh


>Subject: Heritage River fiasco
>
>I am sending an Alert on the American Heritage Rivers Initiative that Pres.
>Clinton will select the first 10 rivers to be in the program on May 13.
>Once he puts them into the program the communities that are affected cannot
>get out. It is a land grab and the President is using his Executive powers
>to do it. It will affect all the communities  that are next to the rivers
>and watersheds. In other words the land next to the land. There will be Non
>Governmental Agencies controlling the water and land, and that will affect
>farming, fishing, hunting , and living in those areas. They will set up
>river navigators and even your local Indian tribes will have control. They
>can also use satellites to monitor if communities and people comply. Only
>communities that can get 2 U.S. Senators and Supervisors opt to get out.
>Please call Senators and Congressman to oppose this land grab.
>
>Good hunting,
>Delbert
>
>Western Fish and Wildlife Federation, Inc.
>"Wolves or Watchdogs, it's hard to say from which the sheep have most to
>fear"

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS SOMEDAY (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 15 May 1998 09:51:39 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

This certainly says it better than I ever could.
Patty
KTAN

YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS SOMEDAY
By Claire Wolfe

*Thursday, May 14, 1998; 4:05 p.m. EDT: BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- A federal
judge Thursday dismissed involuntary manslaughter charges against the FBI
sharpshooter who killed the wife of white separatist Randy Weaver during
the 1992 siege at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge
accepted the Justice Department argument that Lon Horiuchi was acting in
the line of duty when he fired and was protected by the Supremacy Clause
of the U.S. Constitution, which keeps federal agents from state
prosecution for actions within the scope of their job.*

-----

It is now a federal agent's "duty" to shoot nursing mothers in the face.

The argument, "I vass only following orders," which failed the Nazis so
righteously at Nuremberg is now enshrined in America.

Anything a federal agent does - as long as it can be stretched to be
considered within the scope of his job - is now above any state law,
anywhere in this land.

I just learned a few minutes ago that Horiuchi walked free. I may not be
entirely coherent expressing my loathing. He had only been charged with
involuntary manslaughter. *Involuntary* manslaughter, for god's sake! It
was a token charge. A slap on the wrist. Nothing but a gesture in the
direction of justice. It was the least, the very least, we had a right to
expect from even an unjust government.

Yet for Judge Edward Lodge, Janet Reno and the federal Justice
Department, it was too much. Allow one of their own to suffer any
consequence for his own actions? Never. Allow a mere rural county
government to imagine it could seek even token justice against an
aristocrat? Don't be absurd. We are the federal government. We are
Supreme.

Horiuchi ought to die. Ought at least to spend many years in prison,
thinking about what he did. Instead, he gets to go home and laugh with
his FBI buddies about how he got away with it. Just like they did at
Waco. Just like future assassins will, as long as they work for the FBI
or ATF or Marshals Service, IRS, Forest Service, HUD...or any of the
other government agencies that now arm their agents, operate SWAT teams
and play with military weapons.

I don't know whether an elite sniper like Mr. Lon Horiuchi hobnobs with
regular FBI troops. But I can picture Horiuchi hoisting a celebratory
beer with the agent seen in *Waco: The Rules of Engagement*, joking (Or
was it bragging?) about what a trained and powerful killer he is.

Nothing new, nothing new. There's nothing new in federal murder. Nothing
new in jackboot tactics. And they've been getting away with it all along,
so why should anyone be so outraged now? Just because one more
judge-member-of-the-club protects one more federal good ole boy?

Objectively, I'd say it's the use of the Constitution's supremacy clause
this way - to give carte blanche to any crime a federal employee cares to
commit. Even a casual reading of the Constitution - by an honest person,
that is - reveals that clause was never intended to turn federal agents
into a privileged class, exempt from all state punishment for crimes.

But that isn't it. There's nothing new in the Constitution being abused.
Nothing new in corrupt judges and twisted rulings. Nothing new in federal
arrogance. Nothing new.

For me it's more personal and more difficult to express.

I know that, for a lot of people in the freedom movement, it was Waco
that moved them beyond doubt and into irredeemable disgust. But for me,
the horrors of Waco have seemed so huge they've been an abstraction.
Unless I'm hearing tape of the little Davidian girl begging the BATF
sniper/negotiator not to come in and kill her...or unless I'm seeing
those very normal "religious nuts" on the videotapes they made of
themselves during the siege...unless I'm watching that terrible film...
my mind has never really been able to grasp, in any personal terms,
what happened at Waco.

But the moment I first saw the wavering, fuzzy footage of the Weaver
cabin on August 22, 1992, my heart tore out of my chest. My lungs
wouldn't hold any more air.

I can't even remember, at that point, whether they'd announced that
Sammy was dead. Certainly, they were still pretending they had no
intention of killing Vicki. (Only later would I see the documents and
hear the testimony that made it clear that getting rid of Vicki, one way
or another, was a top priority, since the government perceived her as
the strong, decision-making member of the Weaver family.)

All I remember is that little cabin in the woods and all the forces of
the federal government brought against one isolated family. They were
calling them white supremacists at that point. I didn't know whether it
was true or not; in any case, it wasn't a reason for 200...400?...agents
to descend upon one plywood cabin. It wasn't a reason. What was the
reason? That Randy was an "illegal gun dealer" as they put it then? Two
hundred agents? Four hundred? Tanks? Humvees? Helicopters? Against a
single family on a mountaintop? What was the reason?

And if these people, this family in the cabin, were so evil, so
dangerous, so depraved, so violent, why would hundreds of neighbors and
friends stand at barricades on their behalf for days? Why would women
cry for them? Why would men demand a halt?

All I knew, as I sat there in my own one-room cabin set in its own dark
and isolated woods, was that, wherever the truth lay, it didn't lay in
the mouths of the government spokesmen. Whatever was true or false about
*that* family up there, *everything* was false about those who sought to
destroy them.

Everything.

And everything was false. And everything is false. And so a murderer
walks free. And more murderers will walk free tomorrow. The same false
and arrogant government that murdered Vicki Weaver will murder again.

They don't realize how much better off they'd be if they allowed just a
few of their most public villains, like Horiuchi and the planners of the
Waco raid, to receive public wrist slaps. They don't realize that if we
saw even token agents receive token punishments, many of us would be
appeased. "See," we'd say, "justice is done. There's hope. The system
hasn't entirely failed yet."

But what can we say when, year after year, monsters walk free? They don't
realize that the need for justice doesn't go away, just because justice
goes away. They don't realize what a fury they turn loose in the land.

It's not *their* fury that will ultimately be the most terrible. Those
bureaucrats with guns don't have enough true, gut passion to be furious.
All they have is sadism, brutality and a cool, calculating will to power.

If rage could be measured in kilowatts or megatons, the rage of American
freedom lovers would be as powerful as a dozen atom bombs. Understand.
This power will go somewhere. It will drive the engine of our hope and
despair. It will. You will not murder and celebrate your murders this way
forever. You *will not*.

(c)1998 by Claire Wolfe



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Horiuchi poll on the net (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 15 May 1998 17:19:11 -0700

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On May 15, Rich Zellich wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

http://www.newsindex.com has a poll running: Do you agree with the decision
to dismiss the charges against...[Horiuchi]?

   Current tally is 6.81% Yes
                   93.19% No

Good numbers!

-Rich
[if you see this in time to vote, the poll dialogue is at the very bottom
 of the left-hand navigation frame]

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Rep. Key: concealed carry constitutionally allowed
Date: 15 May 1998 17:27:05 -0700

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scripts/tulsaworld/tulsaworld.dll?VBEXE=C:\inetsrv\scripts\tulsaworld\tulsaworld.exe&DSPLY=Story&ID=980514_Ne_a15keyed

Key, Edmondson in gun battle

By Brian Ford World Capitol Bureau
5/15/98


OKLAHOMA CITY -- Rep. Charles Key's assertion that citizens are
constitutionally allowed to carry concealed firearms without a permit
sparked verbal fire Thursday between Key and Attorney General Drew
Edmondson.
``You are simply wrong,'' Edmondson said in a letter to Key.
Key responded that the letter makes Edmondson look like a ``horse's
ass.''
Key said he was asked Wednesday by a member of a gun owner group
whether citizens were allowed to carry concealed firearms without a
state license. He said Thursday that he believes the state's concealed
weapons permit law violates the Second Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution, which allows citizens to keep and bear arms. He said the
state permit law, which subjects applicants to a background check, does
not allow all citizens to legally carry firearms.
Responding to Key's statement, Edmondson wrote a letter advising Key,
``Don't take your guns to town.''
Edmondson said the Second Amendment ``has never been interpreted
by the Supreme Court to allow individuals, not members of a state
sanctioned militia, to carry firearms in contravention of state law.''
``Our law prohibits carrying a concealed weapon without obtaining a
license. . . . You are simply wrong,'' Edmondson continued.
Edmondson urged Key to heed his advice or seek a formal opinion on the
issue.
``If you carry a concealed weapon without a license, you are sub ject to
arrest and incarceration,'' Edmondson said. ``I will be releasing this letter
to prevent others from reading your comments and inadvertently violating
the law by relying on the credibility of your position.''
Key responded that Edmondson's letter was ``politically motivated.''
Key noted that a year ago he was called in by a multicounty grand jury
that was operated through the Attorney General's Office to answer
questions about his fund-raising activities for the Oklahoma City Bombing
Investigation Fund. The private fund is touted as helping to investigate the
April 19, 1995, bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building that killed
168 people.
``They were willing to drag me and two other people publicly before a
grand jury when there was no basis in law for doing so,'' Key said.
``That is what he is doing with this letter right now.''
Edmondson said Key had violated state law by raising more than $10,000
in private donations and failing to report his organization to the state.
Edmondson said he issued the letter because Key made an ``incorrect
statement of the law and a dangerous statement -- it could get you
arrested.''
He likened Key's statement to a legislator saying the state speed limit has
been raised to 90 miles per hour when it fact it had not.
As for being likened to a portion of a horse's anatomy, Edmondson said,
``Normally I would not dignify name calling with a response, but I would
say this showed more intellectual content than a lot of Representative
Key's comments.''


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Fwd: DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98 -Forwarded
Date: 15 May 1998 19:20:32 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_895264290_boundary
Content-ID: <0_895264290@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


    ...just a quick heads-up for those who haven't seen it yet...

In a message dated 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Subj:     DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98
 Date:    14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
 From:    [e-mail]
 Reply-to:    [e-mail]
 To:    [e-mail]

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998
XXXXX

22:57 ET  BY MATT DRUDGE

Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that
he funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats
during
President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is
set to report in Friday editions.  The exclusive report written by Jeff
Gerth took official Washington by storm late Thursday night.

"Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank
records, is the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department
that elements of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the
Democratic
Party," reports Gerth.

As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a
story that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S.
tech intelligence to the Chinese.

Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night
after filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department
hotshot
David Johnston and Don Van Natta.

The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES
Washington bureau.

"It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as anything
we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT.

Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the
$100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from
China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel
and aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing."

Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member
of the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth.

"It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were
involved in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or
the Chinese military's was."

"At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication
satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's
Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the
military and also has a space subsidiary."

Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on
Thursday: "We had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's
money or the background of his guest."

"The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has
developed around the state of China's military since India tested its
nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic
congressional source told the DRUDGE REPORT.

The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page
One of
Friday's NEW YORK TIMES.

Developing...


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX



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    ...just a quick heads-up for those who haven't seen it yet...

In a message dated 14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Subj:     DRUDGE-REPORT-OCDE RED UPDATE 5/14/98
 Date:    14-05-98 23:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
 From:    [e-mail]
 Reply-to:    [e-mail]
 To:    [e-mail]

 XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX

 22:57 ET  BY MATT DRUDGE

 Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that he
 funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats during
 President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to
 report in Friday editions.  The exclusive report written by Jeff Gerth took
 official Washington by storm late Thursday night.

 "Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank records, is
 the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department that elements
 of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the Democratic
 Party," reports Gerth.

 As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a story
 that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S. tech
 intelligence to the Chinese.

 Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night after
 filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department hotshot
 David Johnston and Don Van Natta.

 The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES
 Washington bureau.

 "It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as
 anything we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT.

 Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the
 $100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from
 China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and
 aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing."

 Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of
 the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth.

 "It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were involved
 in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or the Chinese
 military's was."

 "At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication
 satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's
 Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the
 military and also has a space subsidiary."

 Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on Thursday: "We
 had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's money or the background of
 his guest."

 "The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has
 developed around the state of China's military since India tested its
 nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic congressional
 source told the DRUDGE REPORT.

 The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page One of
 Friday's NEW YORK TIMES.

 Developing...


 XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX



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XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED UPDATE XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX

22:57 ET  BY MATT DRUDGE

Democratic fund-raiser Johnny Chung has told federal investigators that he
funneled dollars from a Chinese military officer to the Democrats during
President Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign, the NEW YORK TIMES is set to
report in Friday editions.  The exclusive report written by Jeff Gerth took
official Washington by storm late Thursday night.

"Chung's account, coupled with supporting documents such as bank records, is
the first direct evidence obtained by the Justice Department that elements
of the Chinese government made illegal contributions to the Democratic
Party," reports Gerth.

As sneaked earlier this week in this space, Gerth has been building a story
that expands on his initial report of a possible illegal sale of U.S. tech
intelligence to the Chinese.

Gerth, who was described as completely exhausted late Thursday night after
filing the story, was assisted by the paper's Justice Department hotshot
David Johnston and Don Van Natta.

The sound of Pulitzer has been ringing in the air all week at the TIMES
Washington bureau.

"It's the first in a series of reports that appears to as serious as
anything we've seen here," one story watcher told the DRUDGE REPORT.

Chung has told investigators, the paper reports, that a large part of the
$100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of '96 came "from
China's People's Liberation Army, through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and
aerospace executive whose father was Gen. Liu Huaqing."

Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of
the top leadership of the Communist Party, reveals Gerth.

"It is not clear whether other Chinese officials or executives were involved
in the purported payments by Ms. Liu, or what her motivation or the Chinese
military's was."

"At the time, Clinton was making it easier for American communication
satellites to be launched by Chinese rockets, a key issue for the People's
Libertation Army and for Ms. Liu's company, which sells missiles for the
military and also has a space subsidiary."

Jim Kennedy, adviser to White House counsel, told the paper on Thursday: "We
had no knowledge about the source of Mr. Chung's money or the background of
his guest."

"The TIMES looks like it is exploiting the emotional atmosphere that has
developed around the state of China's military since India tested its
nuclear bombs earlier this week," a well-placed Democratic congressional
source told the DRUDGE REPORT.

The story runs thousands of words and is set above the fold on Page One of
Friday's NEW YORK TIMES.

Developing...


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT CODE RED XXXXX MAY 14 1998 XXXXX



--part0_895264290_boundary--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  forwarded essay on Ruby Ridge -Forwarded
Date: 15 May 1998 19:31:11 -0700

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>Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
>From: John Wallace <[e-mail]>
>To: "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: forwarded essay on Ruby Ridge
>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:14:42 -0500
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>
>Posted to texas-gun-owners by John Wallace <[e-mail]>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I saw this on another list, and thought it was worth forwarding. I don't
>know the author personally, but I told him he should try to get this
>published in the mainstream press somewhere >>>>>>>
>
>
>"Just yesterday morning they let me know you were gone
> Suzanne, the plans they made put an end to you.
> Woke up this mornin' and I wrote down the song.
> Just can't remember who to send it to.
>
> O, I've seen fire and I've see rain.
> Seen sunny days, I thought would never end.
> Seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
> But I always thought that I'd see you again."
>        from "Fire and Rain" by James Taylor
>
>    It's not a girl, but the America of my youth.  It's not a song, but
>simply scattered thoughts.  Still, the feeling is the same emptiness,
>and I am at a loss as to where they might best be directed.
>
>    Vicki Weaver died in the doorway of an Idaho cabin.  Lon Horiuchi, an
>FBI HRT team member, launched the bullet that killed her.  Horiuchi's
>supervisors issued orders that can be called suspicious, at best.  No
>one disputes these facts.
>
>    The people of the United States understand and accept the law
>enforcement is a potentially dangerous occupation.  They understand that
>there are a lot of "crazies" out there who may or may not directly
>threaten the public and their law enforcement agents.  People understand
>that lethal force is sometimes necessary in defense of self or another
>life.  People also understand that when lethal force is used, there is
>the potential for accidental injury or death.  Law enforcement officers
>(along with others) have to make split second decisions in pressure
>packet moments.  When they do everything right, its "just part of the
>job."  When mistakes are made, by agents or their supervisors, then
>there is a lot of second guessing.  Sometimes such "mistakes" are mere
>accidents for which there is no criminal liability.  Sometimes the
>"mistakes" are negligent and subject to penalties of law.
>
>    When a questionable incident occurs, we have systems in place to deal
>with them.  In the America of my youth, I was told that each person was
>equal before the law-- that each person-- rich, poor, or in between;
>black, white, brown, yellow or red; liberal or conservative; male or
>female-- was equally responsible for their actions.  The key to this
>equality was a trial by a jury of one's peers.  They would examine the
>facts, if not the law, and determine whether or not actions were
>reasonable, or at least lawful or unlawful, according to the standards
>of our society. It seems that I was misinformed.
>
>    When the gunsmoke and heat of the moment cleared on Ruby Ridge, the
>judicial system went into operation.  Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris were
>tried for murder and a host of lesser charges.  A jury of their peers
>judged the facts of several years of law enforcement strategy, tactics
>and implementation, along with Weaver and Harris response.  After
>consideration of all that had been done, Weaver and Harris were
>acquitted of all charges, save one count of failing to respond to a
>summons.  Law enforcement was censured by the judge for abusing the
>system, including falsifying and withholding evidence.
>
>    The results of the trial caused a number of people to suspect that
>something was wrong.  The issue came before Congress who held televised
>hearings on "the incident at Ruby Ridge."  They came to the conclusion
>that something was terribly wrong.  FBI and ATF officials promised
>reform.  The Department of Justice settled a civil suit with the
>Weavers, paying $3.1 million dollars, without admitting fault.  So far,
>so good.
>
>    But Vicki Weaver is still dead.  Everyone seems to affirm that her
>death was a wrongful act.  Wrongful acts causing death are illegalities
>subject to criminal, not civil, penalties.  What crime was committed--
>murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide-- was a matter for the
>technicalites of the law.  Whether the actions were justified were
>issues to be determined by the facts of the case-- the job of the jury.
>Whether Lon Horiuchi was the guilty party or whether he acted reasonably
>in following what Congress called "unlawful rules of engagement" was an
>issue to be determined-- by a jury.
>
>    The calendar pages turned.  The Department of Justice refused to
>prosecute.  Finally, the case was settled at the Federal level with no
>criminal action perceived or prosecuted.  The People of the State of
>Idaho then took up the challenge.  A local prosecutor submitted facts to
>a Grand Jury.  They found cause to indict.  The matter would be brought
>to trial.  The facts were simple as stated above.  Vicki Weaver was
>dead.  Lon Horiuchi directly caused the death.  It happened in Idaho.
>No person is above the law.
>
>    And then we learn that we are wrong.  Some people are.  Federal agents
>"in the performance of their duties" are not subject to state laws.
>Such is an act of Congress.  There was a time when "federal agents" had
>no duty within the boundaries of a state, except to deliver the mail!
>Now we find an entire class of people not subject to state action--
>people exempted from the law.
>
>    Part of this makes sense.  Consider laws regulating the carrying of a
>concealed weapon.  There are a patchwork of such laws, differing in
>every state.  If FBI agents are required by their job descriptions to
>carry weapons, it would make no sense for them to be subject to arrest
>in states which did not allow weapons to be carried. (Whether such laws
>should be on the books is another discussion.) The intent of Congress'
>exemption from state law may be reasonable in some cases.  But a blanket
>exemption from all criminal law is another matter all together.  As a
>local police officer said, "Every federal agent thinks he's "f**king
>James Bond, with a license to kill.  If they do, there's not a d**ned
>thing we can do about it.  It's been that way for years."  The police
>know this, but its news to me, and I suspect, to most of the public."
>
>    Apparently the court actions in the Ruby Ridge case are exceptional
>only in the fact that the State of Idaho tried to take action in this
>wrongful death.  A federal judge moved the action from state court to a
>federal court where the charges were dropped.  Whether Horiuchi got off
>with murder (or manslaughter or negligent homicide) will never be
>determined.  He may have committed no crime in the eyes of the jury, but
>we will never know.  Horiuchi will live under a cloud of thwarted
>process for the rest of his life, and the citizens of this nation will
>be left living with the knowledge that there is no recourse for wrongs
>done to them by federal agents unless the federal government decides to
>punish its own.  Somehow the punishment often meted out in "days off,"
>letters of censure, demotions, transfers and forced retirements fall far
>short of "equality under the law." If anyone else was found guilty of
>taking a life, the penalties would be much more severe.
>
>    I am an amateur student of history.  I cannot help but recall the "long
>train of abuses" listed in the Declaration of Independence.  Some of
>them are recalled to mind as yesterday's decision was announced:
>"He (King George) has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and
>necessary for the public good.
>
>He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing to assent
>to laws for establishing judiciary powers.
>
>He has made judges dependent on his will alone for the tenure of their
>offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
>
>He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
>officers, to harass our people and eat out their substance.
>
>He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to
>our constitutions, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to
>their acts of pretended legislation.
>
>For protecting them by a mock trial, from punishment for any murders
>which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states.
>
>For depriving us, in many cases of the benefit of trial by jury.
>
>For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and
>altering, fundamentally, the forms of our governments."
>
>    King George acted not alone.  Generally, Parliment and the king's
>judges acted with him in unison.  They acted under the color of English
>law.  It all looked official, but the colonist could look at the
>results.  They didn't like what they saw.  It didn't pass the "smell
>test," in spite of what they were told. The colonist were fed the line
>that they were "free Englishmen," but as they looked at their lives,
>they could see the limits on their freedom.  They were free to do the
>will of the King.  No regime enforces penalties for absolute obedience
>to the whims and wishes of the powers that be.
>
>    What we are discovering is that the States, which created the Federal
>government, have lost all illusions of sovereignty.  We live by the good
>will of the Federal government.  All power is now invested in the
>President, the Congress and the Supreme Court.  States are legally
>powerless, and citizens have no right to life, liberty and the pursuit
>of happiness apart from the whim and will of Federal officials. The
>people and the States who were to be a check against federal abuse are
>being systematically stripped of their power to effectively resist
>anything.
>
>    The reality is our not so secret agents have a license to kill. And
>there is nothing we can do about it short of revolt.  That revolt may
>come at the polls.  It may not come at all.  For the Founders of this
>nation, that day came, but we are different people and this is a
>different time.  We may be willing to accept such abuse in stride, check
>the stock market figures, weigh the benefits of life in this society
>against the uncertainties of change, and continue with the lives we
>live, but we will never be able to think of ourselves as free.  Perhaps
>we never were.  Maybe, the America of my youth never really was.
>Certainly, it is now gone, and it never had a chance to say goodbye.
>
>"Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone.
>America, the plans they made put and end to you.
>Woke up this morning and I wrote down these thoughts.
>Just can't remember who to send them to
>
>O, I've seen fire and I've seen rain
>Seen sunny days I thought would never end
>Seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
>But I always thought I'd see you again"
>
>Walter Lee
>
>
>--
>For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to
[e-mail]
>with the word help in the message body.
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Politics as usual
Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------
    Libertarian Self-Reliance <[e-mail]>

Politics as Usual Dept.

[Thanks to Tim Rhodes for this tidbit]
Representative Tim Moor sponsored a resolution in the Texas House of
Representatives in Austin, Texas calling on the House to commend Albert de
Salvo for his unselfish service to "his country, his state and his
community."

The resolution stated that "this compassionate gentleman's dedication and
devotion to his work has enabled the weak and the lonely throughout the
nation to achieve and maintain a new degree of concern for their future.

He has been officially recognized by the state of Massachusetts for his
noted activities and unconventional techniques involving population control
and applied psychology."

The resolution was passed unanimously.

Representative Moore then revealed that he had only tabled the motion to
show how the legislature passes bills and resolutions often without reading
them or understanding what they say. Albert de Salvo was the Boston
Strangler.

--
Ron Amos, Libertarian Candidate
Utah State House District #27
Liberty is Our Destiny
http://www.netcom.com/~ramos3/district27.html



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FEAR: Who's next? You? Me? -- The Danger of Dissent in the USA
Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Willy Chaplin published an interesting piece in the ezine, PissedOff
(http://www.pissedoff.com/cgi-pissedoff/hn/get/forums/secret.html),
a couple of days ago. In the essay there is a link to the May, 1998,
issue of the magazine Liberty and to a very disturbing article by the
author Peter McWilliams, "The DEA Wishes Me a Nice Day" (an on-line
copy is at http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/issues/65issue.html),
wherein he describes a visit paid to him by the DEA last December. In
the pre dawn hours on one December morning, they came into his home
with guns drawn, handcuffed Mr. McWilliams, proceeded to search his
home and his business and to confiscate his personal property,
including his computer, his current book in progress and all backup
copies. A warrant was only produced later and even then, no reason
was given. (They don't have to give a reason any more thanks to one
of the latest raft of annual "crime bills" passed by our ever caring
congress).

We could speculate that the reason for this devastating intrusion into
Peter's life is because he wrote a very enlightening but politically
critical book a few years ago entitled, Ain't Nobody's Business If You
Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country (available at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931580536/002-7099641-9910800).
Or it could be because he is apparently using medically prescribed
marijuana because he is dying of AIDS and cancer. While this practice
is legal in California, the Feds apparently do not condone such laws
and are making life miserable for any California citizens who chose to
ignore federal drug policy -- the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution
notwithstanding.

No, the reason the DEA has decided to make Peter's life miserable and
the reason Peter is resigned to spending the rest of his life in prison,
is DISSENT. Yeah, I know that folk wisdom has it that in the USA with
its democracy that is the envy of the world, dissent is not only accepted
but is even encouraged. Try it. Sure, you can openly complain about the
trivial things, but experience has shown that on the big, big issues --
like the Vietnam war, the Cold War, and now the Drug war, expressing
opposition can get you in a bunch of trouble.

But Mr. Chaplin has made this claim much better than I can and I
strongly recommend you take a look at his essay, "Secret Police" at
http://www.pissedoff.com/cgi-pissedoff/hn/get/forums/secret.html .
I quote Mr. Chaplin:

"Then it hit me...like a thunderbolt! We have EXACTLY such a [police]
force RIGHT NOW! It exists and is growing stronger, more repressive and
more dangerous each year. It is called the Drug Enforcement Agency and it
is explicitly formed and authorized to fight opposition to a war...the
War on Drugs. It's tactics are unconstitutional, secretive, ruthless and
brutal. Despite the fact that it has NEVER been the slightest bit
effective in stemming drug use or abuse, it HAS BEEN ALMOST COMPLETELY
EFFECTIVE IN SUPPRESSING DISSENT!" If this is true -- and I believe it
is -- we are all at risk. Not because we are taking un-approved drugs but
because we actively express our disapproval about what the government is
doing to the citizens and its abuse of the Constitution.

So, the old-timers would say, what else in new? Dissent has always been
dangerous. Maybe, it would be prudent to just keep our mouths shut (as
the German citizens did before WW2). But that is hard to do when we read
what Mr. McWilliams has to say about it: "If the DEA has seized my
computer to silence me, it has failed, as I hope this article illustrates."
A good point.

[Posted by Leon Felkins]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Idaho Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare 1/2
Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

To All,

The corrupt District Federal Judge detailed in this newspaper article
is the same man who dismissed the court case against Lon Horiuchi,
the murderer of Randy Weaver's wife and son.

Truth Surfaces in Hansen Ordeal
Banker's Political Prisoner
http://www.conghansen.com/backg.htm

(EDITOR'S NOTE: This article contains graphic descriptions of
torture that some may find offensive)

Dept. of Finance/Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare

by Don Harkins and Edward Snook

Diesel Therapy:
A prison term which describes the most inhumane, degrading and
painful of punishment; normally reserved for the most violent and
uncontrollable of prisoners. A prisoner is shackled at the feet
and handcuffed at the wrists, reinforced with a box-like structure
which stiffens the chains and locks the wrists at a 90-degree angle.
The handcuffs are connected to a waist chain that is connected to
another chain which connects the shackles. Once this shackling is
complete, a prisoner can barely move. The tightened manacles pinch
the nerves and restrict the flow of blood causing severe pain and
swelling. Legs swelling with blood are particularly damaging to
the feet, as toenails under pressure from blood-blisters press up
against shoes for long periods of time and soon become infected and
deformed, causing such excruciating pain that they require surgery
or the pulling of the nails out by the roots.

Diesel therapy gets its name, not from the "cruel and unusual"
bondage, but from being forced into bus after bus and onto plane
after plane, shackled as described, and being shuttled from one
prison to another, for weeks on end, 20 hours per day in chains,
for no other reason than to cause pain and suffering and give
the prisoner a "message."

Welcome to diesel therapy and the world of seven-term Congressman
George Hansen who was found guilty in the court-room of the infamous
Federal Judge Edward Lodge on bogus charges of bank fraud which were
manipulated into an issue by the Idaho Department of Finance which
illegally used the same agents previously employed by the IRS in
their failed attempt to "get Hansen."

People who have been reading past editions of The Idaho Observer
and The Oregon Observer will recall that the Judge Lodge/Idaho
Department of Finance connection has already been uncovered in
the bogus securities laws violations charges levied against Boise
businessman and winemaker Petro (Pete) Eliopulos. "After Ed Snook
of The Oregon Observer and I met with Hansen and he told me in a
six-hour meeting what had happened to him, I was more shaken than
I have ever been in my life. If (West One) bank officers Knox and
Neaville had not subsequently been convicted of crimes which came
to light in the bogus investigations of me and my businesses, they
could have done to me what they did to Hansen," said Eliopulos,
who was shocked that a U.S. Representative, or anybody for that
matter, could be treated this way in America. What could an esteemed
member of the U.S. Congress have done to deserve such treatment?
Judge Lodge prescribed torture for Hansen.

Congressman Hansen found innocent of crimes manufactured to thwart
congressional accountability.

After four years of imprisonment, after ten years of persecution,
after being ruined professionally and financially and after being
permanently damaged physically, in December, 1995, the 9th Circuit
Court of Appeals vacated Hansen's sentence for bank fraud because
the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled on May 15, 1995, that Hansen's
previous conviction as a member of Congress had been overturned.

A series of events were triggered to allow crimes to be manufactured
which led to the imprisonment and torture of Congressman George Hansen.
Idaho District Federal Judge Edward Lodge, who has been used by bankers
and government officials for a decade to "legalize" their unethical
and criminal activities, was given the job of putting Hansen away and
seeing to it that he learned a lesson. Judge Lodge saw to it that
Hansen received "diesel therapy" coming and going to prison from the
judge's court at great cost to the government, even though Hansen
should have been allowed to make such trips at his own expense.

On the way from his hometown of Pocatello to federal prison in
Petersberg, VA , Hansen was bused and flown, nearly immovably
shackled, at taxpayer expense, to jails all over the country.
Not Hansen's lawyer, his wife, nor his allies in Congress were
able to locate him. Hansen had simply disappeared for a month
into the custody of the Federal Marshal's Service.

Hansen's wife didn't know whether he was dead or alive. And even
when the Supreme Court overturned Hansen's original case and the
Appeals Court vacated his current sentence, Hansen still got the
Judge Lodge treatment of another dose of diesel therapy from
Virginia back to Idaho.

What had Hansen, who was a model prisoner, done to deserve the
most brutal, torturous and barbaric type of treatment this country's
penal system is capable of inflicting on a prisoner?

Congressional Accountability Project

Retired Congressman Tom Kindness (R-Ohio) stated , "I believe that
George's recent trial and conviction on charges of "bank fraud" was
the direct result of a campaign by various members of the bureaucracy
to stop the CAP." CAP, the Congressional Accountability Project, was
being launched by Hansen and a group of investors interested in good
government. CAP was going to utilize nation-wide television and a
national 900 number to make congresspersons instantaneously accountable
to the American people for their votes on the House and Senate floors.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Idaho Judge Lodge Linked to Hansen Nightmare 2/2
Date: 15 May 1998 22:24:00 -0700


"This was a project which would, in my opinion, have had a major
impact on the votes of congressmen since it would have made them
instantaneously responsible to the people by making their votes
known immediately after being cast," commented journalist John Voss.
Hansen and his associates were on the verge of making CAP fully
operational and accessible to the American public when the government,
through the Idaho Department of Finance with the illegal help of
former IRS agents, a revenge-minded Justice Department and the
corrupt Judge Lodge, manufactured bank fraud charges against him.
Judge Lodge's provably compromised court ultimately found Hansen
guilty and prescribed diesel therapy to teach him a lesson.

Why did the "Honorable" Judge Lodge treat Hansen like Public Enemy #1?

George Hansen was the only member of Congress able to pull the
strings necessary to visit the hostages in Iran in 1979 and expose
the big-bank scam behind the crises. George Hansen was the author
of the book To Harass Our People, an indictment of the IRS, wherein
he demanded its dismantling. George Hansen was the congressman who
was so outraged by what he discovered about the IRS while researching
his book that he wrote and helped to pass the Taxpayers' Bill of Rights.
George Hansen was the first man to propose the flat tax as a damage
control alternative to protect the people from IRS abuses. George
Hansen was the man who took on OSHA, WPPSS, and the INS, and George
Hansen was the man who fearlessly and repeatedly made public his
findings when investigations turned up government corruption and
citizen abuse.

The "system" decided it had to teach Congressman Hansen a lesson
because, had he been allowed to continue serving on Capitol Hill,
he would soon likely be the chairman of the powerful House Banking
Committee.

So, why did Judge Lodge, whose personal reasons for needing to
keep the well-documented criminal nature of the banking industry
below public scrutiny, with the help of the Idaho Department of
Finance, trump up a bank fraud conviction by denying the admission
of exonerating evidence in court in order to throw Hansen in prison
and make sure that he was punished severely with diesel therapy?

Was it because Congressman Hansen was getting close to the truth
and accumulating the political power it would take to finally and
totally expose the banking industry and government for its criminal
abuses of the American people?

Judge Lodge's Court of Kangaroos

CAP was apparently the final straw and abusive criminal government
had to put Hansen down. On the eve of CAP becoming fully operational,
powerful special interests and political enemies derailed the project
and forced a domino effect of financial repercussions upon Hansen and
his associates. The government then took the situation it had created
and indicted, prosecuted and convicted Hansen of bank fraud. Though
the treachous Judge Lodge and the government disdained the patriotic
financial sacrifices made by Hansen's supporters for good government
and callously prevented his efforts to re-pay them, it did not prevent
Hansen from publicly pledging that these law breaking government
bullies could never seal his lips, nor stop him from somehow paying
back the people he owed and thereby keeping his word. Every attorney
who has read the court transcripts is concerned and confounded as to
how George could have been convicted on bank fraud charges when the
supervising bank officers were not only acutely aware of his
financial operation and transactions, but were actively assisting
him in his efforts for over ten years! "George defrauded no one and
we can prove it," stated Congressman Kindness.

Hansen was not really imprisoned and tortured by "our" government
for bank fraud, though that was the government's excuse to lock him
up and shut him down. Hansen was actually a political prisoner who
was guilty of attempting to provide the American people with the
ammunition of knowledge so they could successfully fight back against
the senseless encroachment of government oppression which more and
more is ruining the lives of all of us. Hansen dedicated his civil
service to facilitating a return to a "our" government that felt
threatened enough by his noble activities to see to it that he was
imprisoned and tortured for daring to tell citizen/taxpayers the
truth. Hansen was the only U.S. statesman who cared enough to risk
his own safety and political career to visit the hostages in Iran
in 1979. While in Iran, Hansen saw first hand what happens to
political prisoners, who were beaten mercilessly, who had finger
and toe nails ripped out by the roots and who had been shackled
until they were permanently disabled physically.

Hansen has also experienced first hand the same inhumane torture and
it happened to him in the most "civilized" nation on earth, the only
difference being that Hansen was denied treatment and pain-killers
and had to rip his own deformed and infected toenails out.

If there has ever been a time when your country needed you to stand
up for everything it means to be an American, that time is right now.

Subscribe to Truth in Journalism; subscribe to The Idaho Observer

____ $20.00 for 12 issues
____ $35.00 for 24 issues
____ Contribution of $___________
Name: __________________________________________________

Address: ________________________________________________

City: ___________________________ State: _____ Zip: _________

Phone: _________________________ Email: __________________

Print, clip, and mail to:

The Idaho Observer
PO Box 1806
Post Falls ID 83854



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dr. Finnell Takes On CDC. TV interview Monday
Date: 16 May 1998 23:11:16 -0600

Val Finnell, M.D. Takes on the CDC:

> I will be a guest on "Endangered Liberties," a talk show on America's
> Voice (cable) on Monday, May 18th at 10:00 pm to discuss the Centers for
> Disease Control's (CDC) support of the biased and incompetent medical
> "research" on the issue of gun ownership.
>
> The show is broadcast live and accepts call-ins and e-mail:
> [e-mail]
>
> Please tune in if you have cable.  If you don't, you can still view the
> broadcast in RealVideo using RealPlayer at the following website:
>
> http://www.americasvoice.com/
>
> Just click on the button that says, "Watch Now."
>
> You can download the RealPlayer free at:
> http://www.real.com/products/player/index.html
>
> Again:
>
> Endangered Liberties on America's Voice cable network at 10:00 pm,
> Monday May 18th. Watch on TV or on the web.  Call in-and e-mail.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Val


Val is a friend and fellow member of Doctors for Integrity in Policy
Research.  If you have the ability to check this out, please do.

Sarah


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  RNC / New York Times -Forwarded
Date: 18 May 1998 14:34:45 -0700

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Sender: RNC Press List <[e-mail]>

This is a very important summary of how the Clinton Administration has
sold US security interests -- and why.  Please forward it to your own
lists.

Mike Collins
RNC Press Secretary
[phone] (Voice)
[phone] (Fax)
[phone] (Pager)
E-Mail: [e-mail]
Visit Our Web Site: http://www.rnc.org

ESSAY / By WILLIAM SAFIRE
U.S. Security for Sale

WASHINGTON -- A President hungry for money to finance his re-election
overruled the Pentagon; he sold to a Chinese Military Intelligence front
the technology that defense experts argued would give Beijing the
capacity to blind our spy satellites and launch a sneak attack. How soon
we have forgotten Pearl Harbor.

October 1996 must have been some tense month for Democratic
fund-raisers. The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles
Times had begun to expose "the Asian connection" of John Huang and
Indonesia's Riady family to the Clinton campaign.

The fix was already in to sell the satellite technology to China.
Clinton had switched the licensing over to Ron Brown's anything-goes
Commerce Department. Johnny Chung had paid up. Commerce's Huang had
delivered money big time (though one of his illegal foreign sources had
already been spotted). The boss of the satellite's builder had come
through as Clinton's largest contributor.

But public outrage was absent. The F.B.I. didn't read the papers and
Reno Justice did not want to embarrass the President. And television
news found no pictorial values in the Asian connection.

Stealthily, the Clinton Administration held back the implementation of
the corrupt policy until Nov. 5 -- the day the campaign ended.
Now the reporting of Jeff Gerth and The Times's investigative team is
putting the spotlight of pitiless publicity on the sellout of American
security.

We begin to see how the daughter of China's top military commander
steered at least $300,000 through the Chung channel to the D.N.C.
(Apparently Mr. Chung skimmed off a chunk and may be spilling his guts
lest he have to face his Beijing friends.)

We begin to learn more of the Feb. 8, 1996, visit of the arms dealer
Wang Jun to the Commerce office of Ron Brown, and Wang's "coffee"
meeting that day with the President, the very day that Clinton approved
four Chinese launches -- even as China was terrorizing Taiwan with
missile tests.

Clinton's explanation, which used to slyly suggest that China policy was
not changed "solely" by contributors, has now switched to total
ignorance: shucks, we didn't know the source of the money. But this
President's D.N.C. did not know because it wanted not to know;
procedures long in place to prevent the unlawful inflow of foreign funds
were uprooted by the money-hungry Clintonites.

Today, two years after this sale of our security, comes the unforeseen
chain reaction: as China strengthens its satellite and missile
technology, a new Indian Government reacts to the growing threat from
its longtime Asian rival and joins the nuclear club. In turn, China
feels pressed to supply its threatened ally, Pakistan, with weaponry
Beijing promised us not to transfer.

This makes Clinton the Proliferation President.

Who has helped keep this sellout of security under wraps? In the Senate,
John Glenn was rewarded with a space flight by Clinton for derogating
the leads to China of the Thompson committee. Fred Thompson's warnings
about China's plan to penetrate this White House were then scorned by
Democratic partisans; his Government Operations Committee should now
swarm all over this.

The House's aggressive agent of the Clinton cover-up, Henry Waxman of
California, is finally "troubled" by the prospect of damning evidence he
prevented the Burton committee from finding. At least three Democratic
partisans who foolishly followed Waxman in blocking the testimony of
Asian witnesses may have difficulty explaining their cover-up vote to
even more troubled voters in their districts.

The Gerth revelations lead to more questions: Where were the chiefs of
the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, their intelligence so
dependent on satellites, on the satellite technology sale to China?
Is anybody at Reno Justice re-examining testimony taken by independent
counsel investigating corruption at Commerce before Ron Brown's death?
Does Brown's former lawyer claim "dead man's privilege" on notes? Did
N.S.A. tape overseas calls of suspect Commerce officials? Who induced
Commerce to lobby Clinton for control of satellite technology?
And the most immediate: Will homesick prosecutor Charles LaBella,
beholden to Janet Reno for his political appointment in San Diego, dare
to offend his patron by calling for independent counsel?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Repercussions of military killing of civilian teen-ager
Date: 18 May 1998 14:38:47 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Repercussions of military killing of civilian teen-ager along border
12.34 p.m. ET (1635 GMT) May 17, 1998

By Eduardo Montes, Associated Press

EL PASO, Texas (AP) -- As the Marines approached, Esequiel Hernandez Jr.
writhed on the ground in agony, dying from the military-issue M-16 bullet
that had torn into his side.

On that rainy evening one year ago, the 18-year-old goatherd became the
first American civilian casualty of U.S. troops enlisted to fight the war
on drugs.

He may have been the last. The military suspended its drug patrols along
the border two months later and not one armed soldier has returned since.

"We don't know when and if those missions will be reinstated. To be very
honest, we don't believe they will. The entire operation was put under
scrutiny. I just don't see us going back into that business,'' said Lt.
Col. Jere Norman, spokesman for Joint Task Force Six, the agency that
coordinates anti-drug missions between the military and civilian
authorities.

The Pentagon created the El Paso-based JTF Six in 1989 after the White
House declared drugs a national security threat, opening the door to
limited military  involvement in interdiction efforts.

Civil rights advocates quickly protested, arguing the move eroded the
1878 Posse Comitatus act prohibiting the military from performing
civilian law enforcement functions.

It was "against the democratic values and beliefs of this country since
the Declaration of Independence,'' said Maria Jimenez, director of the
Immigration Law Enforcement Monitoring Project, a watchdog group.

Critics also said the government was inviting tragedy, and Hernandez's
death on May 20, 1997, seemed to prove them right.

Hernandez, who lived in Redford, a remote border town 200 miles southeast
of El Paso, had been grazing his goats near the Rio Grande when he
crossed paths with a four-man Marine patrol assigned to keep watch on a
suspected drug smuggling route.

What happened next has been a subject of debate.

The Marines said Hernandez fired at them twice with his .22-caliber
rifle, prompting the camouflaged soldiers to trail him for about 20
minutes.

When he raised his rifle a third time, Cpl. Clemente Banuelos, fearing
a fellow Marine was in danger, fired a single shot that struck Hernandez
under the right armpit. Within the hour, the teen-ager was dead.

Family members say Hernandez would never have knowingly fired at the
Marines and that he carried the rifle only to shoot targets and protect
his goats from wild dogs. Local and federal authorities acknowledge he
wasn't involved in any wrongdoing when he was killed.

The military maintains Banuelos and his three fellow Marines acted
appropriately.

Banuelos was cleared by two grand juries, one federal and one convened
by Presidio County.

The decision outraged Hernandez's family and many Redford residents.

"It's something that you can't understand, why it happened, why they
had to kill him, why it had to be done,'' said Hernandez's older
brother, Margarito. "We can't accept they had a reason to kill him.
It was wrong.''

The Hernandez family is pursuing a claim against the government and has
been negotiating with the Justice Department for compensation, said
family attorney Bill Weinacht.

And Presidio County District Attorney Albert Valadez is considering
whether to reopen the case because he feels the county grand jury's
examination left unanswered questions.

Margarito Hernandez and civil rights advocates are pleased that the
military missions have been discontinued, but they fear the Pentagon
could reverse the decision. And in any event, JTF Six will still be
involved with police, including training them in military tactics.

"It's a different threat,'' said Tim Dunn, author of "Militarization
of the U.S.-Mexico Border.''

"It's a more severe threat if they're out there with guns,'' he said.
"But if the other facets of the relationship ... continue, that's still
dangerous.''

Supporters of military involvement see a different threat.

"We should not unilaterally retreat from the war on drugs because there
is a tragedy,'' said Paul Marcone, chief of staff for Rep. Jim Traficant,
D-Ohio. "The (suspension's) net effect is that we have more cocaine and
heroin coming into the United States.''

Traficant plans to reintroduce legislation this year to allow increased
military participation.

But Norman, the JTF Six spokesman, said he's not sure civilian agencies
want soldiers to return.

"If it became available to us, we'd have to take a long hard look at
it,'' said Tomas Zuniga, a Dallas-based spokesman for the Immigration
and Naturalization Service. "Shame on me once, but not shame on me
twice.''



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  BATF Proposed regulations: Immediate action needed!
Date: 18 May 1998 16:00:37 -0700

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Posted to rkba-co by Dave Post <[e-mail]>
-----------------------
This is about the *proposed* permanent Brady Bill regulations  The BATF
comment period is about to end ( midnight May 20, 1998. )

If you wish to be taken off my distribution list, I will immediately honor
your wishes.
===
I am sorry that this is redundant for subscribers to RKBA-CO.  But I wanted
to thank those subscribers ( you know who you are.  ) If it wasn't for
them, Gun Owners of America and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms
Ownership many of us would not have found out about this.

The NRA is asleep at the wheel.  I e mailed my concerns, along with the
proposed regulations to Tanya Metaska, NRA/ILA three weeks ago and have
heard nothing back.

The proposed regulations are available from me or the government
( Government Printing Office ) at:

    http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/dbsearch.html
    link: Federal Register
    link: GPO Access Search Page
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html

    Federal Register, Volume 63, (1998) was already selected in a form

    searched for "alcohol, tobacco and firearms"

    http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi

    fr19fe98P Implementation of Public Law 103-159, Relating to the Permanent

This issue cannot wait!  No time to procrastinate.  The commentary period
is nearly over.  I have attached a sample letter that you can use and
modify.  In the letter are the mailing address and important reasons the
proposed regulations should be withdrawn.

Please act now.  Don't wait for the 'good ol' boys' at the NRA.

David Post    [e-mail]       These opinions are mine and mine alone.
============================================================================


                                                   May 17, 1998
                                                   3954 Boxelder Dr.
                                                   Loveland, CO 80538


Chief, Regulations Division
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
P.O. Box 50221
Washington, D.C.  20091-0221

Attention: Notice No. 857 (proposed regulations to implement
           the "instant check" provisions of the "Brady Act").

To Whom It May Concern:

I am writing to express objections to the proposed regulations.

The proposed regulations defer citizens privacy to the hands of the Justice
Department, but the DOJ has not been prohibited from keeping databases of
firearm purchases.  They have no obligation to secure their records or
maintain citizen privacy.  This is an attempted end-run around laws designed
to regulate the BATF.  The Batf has overstepped it bounds.

The original intent of the Brady Bill was for the BATF to implement a check
if, and only if, the states did not implement it or it was not adequate.
Therefore the BATF check is not necessary.

The proposed regulations appear to apply to all firearms, handguns and long
guns.  This is completely beyond the scope of the Brady Bill.  Again, the
BATF oversteps its bounds.

The Brady Bill intent was to exempt states which had implemented their own
instant check system.  The proposed regulations fail in this respect.

Finally, the proposed regulations should be directed, not toward areas of
state law, but toward the very poor record of booking those violators of
federal law who attempt to purchase a firearm when they have been
prohibited by previous criminal activity.

These proposed regulations should be withdrawn, and rewritten according to
the above guidelines.


                                                   David F. Post


For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to:
[e-mail]
with the word Help in the body of the message


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Forfeiture Hearing on Wednesday
Date: 19 May 1998 16:09:37 -0600

I've taken the liberty of forwarding this message from Arnold Gaunt because
I believe asset forfeiture is an issue of concern to firearms owners.  I
have no information other that what Arnold has written, so please direct
questions to him.

Sarah

>Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:08:36 -0700
>From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>Organization: XMission
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I)
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Forfeiture Hearing on Wednesday
>
>This is another reminder of the civil asset forfeiture hearing by the
>Business, Labor, and Economic Development Interim Committee.  The
>hearing is scheduled for 3:35 PM on Wednesday, May 20, in Room 403 of
>the State Capitol.  This is our opportunity to inform the Legislature
>that asset forfeiture is unjust.  Please plan to attend if you possibly
>can.
>
>I will be presenting to the Committee a summary of some of the worst
>forfeiture abuses that have occurred in Utah.  Other topics that are
>worthy of consideration and might be presented and developed by others
>are:
>
>1.  The inherent presumption of guilt in forfeiture proceedings
>
>2.  The use of confidential informants, paid with asset forfeiture
>proceeds, and the distortion of justice which results.
>
>3.  How drug dealers can use their assets as a trade for reduced charges
>and sentences.
>
>4.  Since drug dealers make their money from junkies who steal from
>innocent people or from those who effectively are stealing from their
>families, why are police entitled to forfeiture proceeds instead of
>victims of the drug trade?
>
>5.  Why should drug users continue to be treated as victims when their
>choice to use has caused the supply problem?  Users of drugs ought to be
>treated as the cause of supply rather than its victims.  If the
>Legislature must do something about drugs, then let's eliminate demand
>instead of pursuing foolish and proven ineffective "supply side"
>approaches which involve and threaten the liberty of all.  Under "supply
>side", all are directly or indirectly participants in drug commerce.
>
>6.  If we don't allow our soldiers to loot from the enemy, nor allow our
>tax auditors to earn commissions on successful audits, why do allow the
>police to confiscate the property of innocent owners?
>
>7.  If asset forfeiture is all about Pablo Escobar (now deceased) and
>his billions, then why can't the police/prosecutors produce statistics
>to back this phony assertion?
>
>8.  Since the police have seized many homes for alleged meth lab
>operations, why was not the Red Lion Hotel seized on the same basis?
>
>9.  With regard to real property, why shouldn't owners be entitled to
>the same protection as banks who can avoid forfeiture by showing they
>didn't know of the alleged misuse of the property.
>
>10.  How can the police and prosecutors be so certain of guilt when no
>one is ever charged with a crime in most forfeitures?
>
>11.  Why should prosecutors have greater incentive to pursue forfeiture
>cases than murder or robbery cases, since they are reimbursed with
>proceeds on successful forfeiture actions.
>
>I'm aware that some of you may have objections to some of these topics,
>but they are intended merely to promote deeper consideration of this
>issue and possibly motivate you to address the Committee.
>
>See you on Wednesday.
>
>
>
>http://www.le.state.ut.us/~1998/interim/html/0520blea.htm
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: The Ten Commandments of Gun Hating
Date: 20 May 1998 08:11:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Forwarded (but wish I wrote this!)

For those who didn't notice the post about the UN and civilian
disarmament, this is from an excellent Illinois site:
Champaign County Grassroots (CCG) branch of the Illinois State Rifle
Association. (http://www.chambana.com/~CCG/ccgr.htm)
____________________
And in other news:
_____________________

The Ten Commandments of Gun Hating

1.Believe everything you see, read and hear in the media. The media
would never report anything false or incorrect -- Dewey really did
defeat Truman. Also, the movies and television portray typical life in
America.

2.Hate all forms of hunting. Killing an animal for food is one of the
most barbaric and bloodthirsty things around. Hunting isn't necessary.
That's what we have supermarkets for. Remember, YOU know much more
about how animals live in the forest than the people who have actually
been there because you watched the Nature Channel (see #1).

3.Guns cause crime. The mere possession of a gun will give a person
the feeling of absolute power and the desire to go out and kill
people. It's true. Remember, the media told you that guns cause crime.
(see #1)

4.Ugly guns are evil guns. The media reported that Sen. Feinstein of
California says that ugly guns can kill an entire room full of
politicians with only three bullets! It must be true (see #1). Ugly
names are also bad. Black Talon has got to be more vicious than a
"Safety Slug."

5.Gun Control Works! Ignore the facts and continue to say it.
Eventually you will convince yourself it is true. Besides, 95% of the
time the media says it works (see #1). It must be true.

6.Assume everyone is like you. You know that if you had a gun, you
might someday want to shoot your spouse in a fit of anger. Therefore
everyone would probably shoot their spouses during an argument if they
had a gun.

7.Be squeamish about everything. People who shoot criminals are
KILLING them! It's okay to defend yourself with nerf bats, lemon juice
and a noise maker, because those things don't hurt other human beings
(the criminals). If you shoot them you have a mess -- blood, guts and
all kinds of yucky stuff around (Eeack!!). It is better to die than
kill a criminal and have than on your conscience for the rest of your
life!!

8.All you need is "911". The police will always be there. If you are
attacked at home, just call the police and they will be there in an
instant as you put down the receiver. They know exactly where you live
and are right around the corner, just like in the movies and TV (see
#1). If you are attacked in public, don't worry. The police have ESP
and will be right there.

9.Try to be as ignorant as possible about guns. Ignorance really is
bliss. People naturally fear anything they don't understand. Don't
worry, be blissful.

10.Spread as much 'disinformation' as possible. By spreading lies,
rumors, misinformation and other falsehoods, you keep the general
public confused, misinformed and ignorant as to the truths of gun
ownership (see #9). The media does this all the time so it must be the
right thing to do (see #1).

COL. HARRY S. BACHSTEIN
"Man is not my ultimate Judge."
Visit My Website:
http://members.aol.com/bach11/adventurer.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: R.A.P.E., Inc. (fwd)
Date: 20 May 1998 08:11:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

The following was intercepted by a friend who shall remain
nameless. It therefore CANNOT be verified.

R.A.P.E., Inc. Conquers All

"Rights Are Privileges Eventually, Incorporated (R.A.P.E., Inc.) is
proud to have finally kicked-off the necessary change that will ensure
the final solution for the problem of the gun culture in America.

Our little known, but effective, cooperation with the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) in writing the Notice of Proposed
Rule Making (NPRM) that will impose fees and require the transfer
information of those purchasing guns to permanent records to the F.B.I.
for storage and collation. More about the latter in a moment.

Our public organizations, Violence Policy Center, Handgun Control,
Inc., and MOST of the similarly named organs, have been very effective
in carrying the message and taking the heat and focus while the National
Rifle Association followed the path of least resistance, again, by
pushing for National Instant Check versus state waiting periods. Those
states are much harder to control than the Federals, so eliminating them
from the process was essential.

The F.B.I will be receiving the names and all other information from
A.T.F. which they will collate with information obtained from the
National Driver's license records, complete with thumbprints. Together
with old military fingerprint records, credit files, and any other
information we've acquired over the years [this] will be completely
combined to [create] a dossier on all who apply for instant check.

Initially, the most important aspect of this new program is the
fee. The fee collected is hardly enough to pay for all of the above,
and indeed, that is not its purpose. The fee will establish, beyond
argument, that gun purchases, gun pawn redemptions, and gun returns
from licensed gunsmiths are NOT a right, but are in fact, a privilege.
This is the most vital aspect of Instant Check, it MUST be retained at
all costs.

Remember, any attempt by Republicans and other fringe groups, to
remove the fee for this "service" must be fought with the arguments all
Republicans use for charging fees for parks and college tuition. They
should be told this is just a fee for services and it's not "fair" for
those not using "the service" to pay it.

Once the fee is well and truly established, it can be raised for
certain types of guns, say for handguns, based on our establishing that
they are subject to higher use by criminals. Eventually, like tobacco,
these fees will be used to remove the less well salaried among gun
purchasers from the ranks of gun buyers totally. Eventually, with the
poor out of the gun culture, the remainder will be handled by painting
them as rich sportsmen that are willing to put the poor at risk by
practicing their dangerous sport. The United Kingdom's success from a
similar ruse is a wonderful study for this plan.

This memo will be followed by a more robust plan soon."

Again this was intercepted by means that I cannot discuss and by
person(s) that I cannot reveal.

Pat Hines



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Fw: Myth About Crime Shot Down -Forwarded
Date: 19 May 1998 14:14:00 -0700

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Great Stuff!

----------
> From: Carl  W. Spitzer IV <[e-mail]>
> To: Rosetta <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Myth About Crime Shot Down
> Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 10:55 PM
>
> >>  Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 04:11:31 -0500
> >>  From:    MJ <[e-mail]>
> >>  Subject: Edmonton Journal Editorial
> >>
> >>  May 5, 1998
> >>
> >>  MYTH ABOUT CRIME SHOT DOWN
> >>
> >>  Canadians may point smugly at U.S. crime rates, but guess what?
> >>  Outside of murder, there's as much violent crime north of the
> >>  border as south these days
> >>
> >>  LORNE GUNTER
> >>  EDMONTON JOURNAL
> >>
> >>  Lost by Canadian newspapers and networks amid their sanctimonious
> >>  tut-tutting about the recent rnass killings in a Jonesboro, Ark.,
> >>  schoolyard, was the release of the third international crime
> >>  victimization survey (ICVS).
> >>
> >>  In part, this is justifiable. Five simultaneous murders is a bigger
> >>  story than the release of another dry statistical report, especially
> >>  when four of the victims are children and the fifth their pregnant
> >>  teacher.
> >>
> >>  The shortcoming lies in the Canadian moral clucking surrounding the
> >>  Jonesboro shootings versus the silence over the irnplications of the
> >>  ICVS.
> >>
> >>  The CBC English television network directly blamed the National Rifle
> >>  Association for the five deaths in Arkansas. To hear its report, one
> >>  would think NRA vice-president Charlton Heston had had his finger on
> >>  the trigger.
> >>
> >>  John Bierman of the Financial Post shrieked: "It's the gun culture,
> >>  stupid," which is true in a way, but not the way Bierman means. Then
> >>  he called on the Americans to emulate Canada or Britain and implement
> >>  strict controls on guns.
> >>
> >>  Bierman, and several other Canadian commentators who mimicked his
> >>  knee-jerk reaction, ignore at least three significant points.
Canada's
> >>  gun laws were quite strict when a madman killed 14 female students at
> >>  the Universite de Montreal in 1989, and yet the laws did not save
them
> >>  (nor will the even stricter laws being implemented this fall prevent
> >>  future madmen from committing similar mass killings). Mass killings
> >>  are committed with machetes, bombs and other weapons, too, and their
> >>  cause perplexes psychologists and sociologists. And, if the cause of
a
> >>  crime is cultural, a change to gun laws will be virtually powerless
to
> >>  alter it.
> >>
> >>  Which is why it was unforgivable that Canadian journalists should
have
> >>  overlooked the ICVS.
> >>
> >>  Canadians have smug attitudes towards the U.S. on a number of
subjects
> >>  - - health care, welfare and crime among them. While in each case our
> >>  smugness is undeserved, it is especially undeserved on crime.
> >>
> >>  Like several studies before it, the ICVS shows that except for
murder,
> >>  Canadians suffer as much violent crime as Americans and more
> >>  non-violent crime. Our view of America as the final shootout from a
> >>  John Wayne movie and Canada as an idyllic scene from Anne of Green
> >>  Gables is so simplistic, arrogant and wrong it borders on outright
> >>  prejudice.
> >>
> >>  The ICVS, conducted by Statistics Canada, shows 25 per cent of
> >>  Canadians were victims of crime in 1996 vs. 24 per cent of Americans.
> >>  Six per cent of us suffered a violent crime - robbery, armed robbery,
> >>  sexual assault or common assault - vs. seven per cent of Americans.
> >>
> >>  The highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialized world
was
> >>  in England and Wales, where eight per cent of residents were
> >>  victimized in 1996 (and total victimization is 40 per cent higher
than
> >>  in the U.S.) and where gun laws are even stricter than in Canada
> >>
> >>  Household burglaries and car thefts were as high in Canada as in the
> >>  U.S (in England and France they were 50 per cent higher than in North
> >>  America), with the added proviso that burglaries in Canada are more
> >>  than four times as likely to occur when the residents are home as
they
> >>  are in the U.S. Theft of other personal property was 50 per cent
> >>  higher north of the 49th parallel than south.
> >>
> >>  The vastly higher murder rate in the U.S. is an important difference.
> >>  But it certainly does not justify our gun laws, or discredit theirs.
> >>
> >>  For more than a century, American murder rates have been three to 10
> >>  times higher than those of other western nations. And the differences
> >>  in rates have remained reasonably constant before and after the
> >>  introduction of strict gun laws in Canada, Britain, Australia Japan,
> >>  New Zealand and elsewhere. Indeed, the murder rates in other
> >>  industrialized nations have inched closer to those in the U.S.,
> >>  despite various attempts to register all guns or license all gun
> >>  owners, or even ban guns.
> >>
> >>  Americans see murder as a solution to their problems - murder with
> >>  guns, murder with knives, murder with fists - much more often than do
> >>  the citizens of other western nations. The difference lies in their
> >>  culture, not just their "gun culture." Crimes of all sorts, including
> >>  murder, are lowest in those states with the highest rates of gun
> >>  ownership.  States such as Vermont, New Hampshire, North Dakota and
> >>  Montana, where gun ownership is at least twice what it is in Canada
> >>  have murder rates as low as one-half that in the provinces that are
> >>  their immediate neighbors.
> >>
> >>  The ICVS points out what Interpol and others have also pointed out:
> >>  Canadians have no reason to be smug about crime, or about gun laws.
> >>                              -30-
> >>                 ---- End Forwarded Article ----


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  JEWISH STATE SELLS US OUT to CHINA -Forwarded
Date: 19 May 1998 14:26:11 -0700


FULL SIZED UN FLAG w/RED CIRCLE SLASH $15
[e-mail]
1-888-4-LIBERTY for FREE VIDEO that is FANTASTIC: GET YOURS
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------------------

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    BERNARD SCHWARTZ's LORAL AEROSPACE, via CLINTON QUID
QUO PRO,
        REVEALS ADVANCED SATELITE and GUIDANCE SYSTEM
TECHNOGLY SECRETS to
        RED COMMUNIST CHINESE BUTCHERS.  NOT TO MENTION, BOEING
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        our STATE of the ART DUAL PURPOSE FACTORIES !!  Congrats to
INDIA
        for DEFYING ONE WORLDERS and PRESERVING their OWN RIGHT
to KEEP &
        BEAR ARMS!!


   U.S. Technology Shows Up in China

   Zionists have once again stuck a knife in the back of the United
   States.

   EXCLUSIVE TO THE SPOTLIGHT

   By Mike Blair

   Israeli arms merchants have compromised U.S. security by selling
   state-of-the-art U.S. jet fighter technology to Red China. The
   technology has allowed the Red Chinese Air Force to develop what is
   emerging as one of the world's foremost supersonic jet
   fighter-bombers.

   The new Red Chinese aircraft, the Jianjiji-10, more commonly
   referred to as the J-10, is a very close copy of the canceled
   Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter, which the United States spent hundreds
   of millions of dollars to help the Israelis to develop. The Reagan
   administration eventually pulled the plug on the project as being
   cost prohibitive.

   The J-10 so closely resembles the Israeli jet that it is difficult
   to tell the difference between the two super sophisticated aircraft.

   The Red Chinese plane also resembles America's top jet
   fighter-bomber, the General Dynamics F-l6, which currently comprises
   the backbone of U.S. Air Force jet fighter strength.

   The fact that the Israelis have provided the Red Chinese with the
   technology and assistance in developing the J-10 has been confirmed
   in the 1998 edition of Jane's All the World Aircraft, published in
   Britain.

   "A photograph released in 1996 by the People's Liberation Army of a
   wind tunnel model of the J-10 showed it to be identical to the Lavi
   in all essential respects, apart from slightly raised foreplanes and
   the addition of wingroot training-edge extensions," Jane's stated.

   According to the latest British publication, the U.S. Office of
   Naval Intelligence "reiterates U.S. belief that Red China has
   received Lavi technology for incorporation in the J-10."

   GAVE SECRETS TO FRIENDS

   To provide Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) the ability to build
   the Lavi the Pentagon gave the Israelis whatever avionics technology
   was available in America that they asked for. The United States also
   provided the bulk of what was reported to be several hundred million
   dollars to produce the new aircraft.

   At least two prototypes of the Israeli fighter were built,the B-1
   and B-2, in 1986 and 1987 respectively. Then the administration of
   Ronald Reagan pulled the financial plug on the project, forcing the
   Israelis to cancel development on August 30, 1987.

   PLANNED 300 PLANES

   The Israelis had intended to build 300 of the advanced multi-role
   combat aircraft, including 60 two-seat training models. The swept
   delta-wings of the aircraft were designed in the United States by
   Grumman and the engine was to be a U.S. Pratt and Whitney PW1120
   turbo-jet.

   Armament of the Lavi would consist of an internally mounted
   30-millimeter cannon plus four underwing and seven under-fuselage
   stores attachments for a variety of bombs, missiles and rockets.

   The Clinton administration has been aware of the Chicom/Israel deal
   since at least October 1994 when a prototype of the J-10 was
   detected by a U.S. intelligence satellite at Red Chinese
   aircraftdevelopment facilities at Chengdu.

   Still, the White House continues to extend to the Israelis carte
   blanche delivery of the latest U.S. weapons technology.

   As an example, in the latest showdown with Iraq the U.S. further
   beefed up the Patriot batteries left there from the Gulf War with
   updated technology. There have been reports that the Israelis have
   also shared Patriot technology with the Red Chinese.

   The United States is providing the bulk of the technology and
   financing to Israel for the development of a new "Star Wars" type of
   anti-missile defense system.

   Currently, the Red Chinese are undertaking a massive project to
   modernize their arsenal of inter-continental ballistic missiles
   (ICBMs), some of which are capable of striking the heart of the
   United States.

   Israel, despite its protestations to the contrary and outright
   denials, has for years been selling advanced American weapons
   technology on to the Red Chinese, as well as other potential U.S.
   enemies.

   During the early 1980s top U.S. artillery technology, developed by
   U.S. scientists in upstate New York at an army research arsenal, was
   stolen by Israeli agents and was discovered in Red China during a
   May Day parade in Peking.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  A cultist is...
Date: 19 May 1998 14:21:59 -0700

I read the following statement and then re-read the executive order lists
and shudder.

Josh



Just ran across this quote from AG Janet Reno. From a person of such
high power, these are scary words. ---------

"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second
Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high
level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools for their
children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in
the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government.  Any of
these may qualify [a person as a cultist] but certainly more than one [of
these] would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and his family
as being in a risk situation that qualified for government interference."

-Attorney General Janet Reno, Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26, 1994


"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our
homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights."   Major General Smedley Butler
USMC  1930 winner of two Congressional Medals of Honor.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: JEWISH STATE SELLS US OUT to CHINA -Forwarded
Date: 20 May 1998 12:13:47 -0600

At 02:26 PM 5/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>   U.S. Technology Shows Up in China
>
>   Zionists have once again stuck a knife in the back of the United
>   States.
>
>   EXCLUSIVE TO THE SPOTLIGHT
>
>   By Mike Blair
>
>   Israeli arms merchants have compromised U.S. security by selling
>   state-of-the-art U.S. jet fighter technology to Red China. The
>   technology has allowed the Red Chinese Air Force to develop what is
>   emerging as one of the world's foremost supersonic jet
>   fighter-bombers.


Why in the world would China need to buy technology from Israel, when
Clinton is frothing at the mouth to sell it to them at bargain-basement rates?

And as far as I can tell, Clinton is busy not just sticking a knife in the
back of Israel, but giving it a few good twists.

That doesn't mean I condone sales of Israeli technology to China.  However,
the real threat to world peace is not Israel; it's the United States under
Kommander Klinton.

Sarah

PS:  The Spotlight is a viciously anti-semitic publication.  While I'd
defend to the death the right of anyone to publish anything, here or in
print, I would hope the members of this list would voluntarily agree to
avoid the use of inflammatory material.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  FW: Taxpayer Group Issues Comparison-Report Card on Senate
Date: 20 May 1998 12:59:55 -0700

             Commer              ce Committee -Forwar

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              ce Committee

> ----------------- Message requiring your approval (55 lines)
> ------------------
> Press Release of the National Taxpayers Union
> For Immediate Release - Wednesday, May 20, 1998
> Contact: John Berthoud [phone]
>
>
> Taxpayer Group Issues "Comparison-Report Card" on Senate Commerce
> Committee Tax Bill
>
> Senate Bill Earns "F" and is "Strikingly Similar" to 1993 Clinton Tax
> Hike
>
>
>  (Washington, DC) - The 300,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU)
> today issued a "Comparison-Report Card" of the pending Senate Commerce
> Committee tobacco tax legislation that showed the measure to be
> "strikingly similar" to the 1993 tax hike engineered by President Bill
> Clinton.  The group concluded that "from the American taxpayers' point
> of view, both pieces of legislation earn an 'F.'"
>
>  "It is ironic that Republicans who so sharply denounced the
> big-government tax hike in 1993 that was done in the name of children
> are leading the charge for exactly the same thing today," observed NTU
> President John Berthoud.  "The remarkable resemblance of this
> Republican-led tax hike to the 1993 tax increase of Democrat Bill
> Clinton gives credence to the claims that there is often not much of a
> difference between the two parties in Washington."
>
>  The NTU analysis was in response to issuance of a "report card" by
> Senator John McCain (R-AZ) on the pending Commerce Committee
> legislation.
>
>  Berthoud noted that the similarities between the two pieces of
> legislation are striking.  "Both bills are done in the name of kids,
> both raise hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxes on
> politically-unpopular groups, both increase the size and scope of
> Washington bureaucracy."  NTU noted that for taxpayers, the 1993
> legislation was superior in one respect - much of the new tax money went
> to deficit reduction, whereas today the money is going simply to fuel
> bigger government.
>
>  "If Washington politicians want to 'do something' about youth smoking,
> the proper venue is through enforcing and perhaps expanding laws
> designed to keep cigarettes out of the hands of children.  The answer to
> the problem most definitely is not hundreds of billions of dollars in
> new taxes to feed hungry Washington bureaucracies," Berthoud concluded.
>
>  National Taxpayers Union is a non-profit, nonpartisan organization
> founded in 1969 that works for lower taxes, less wasteful spending, and
> accountable government at all levels.  Note: the NTU "Comparison-Report
> Card" is available at NTU's web site (www.ntu.org) or by calling NTU
> (703-683-5700).
>
> 1 - 30 -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  NAFLFD Firearms Record
Date: 20 May 1998 13:50:42 -0700

Even as a private firearms collector, you should have all your firearms
receipts and dispositions in a BATF approved firearms record book.

The National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers is
offering the official bound firearms record book to every firearms owner.
This government approved record book has been in use for over twenty
years, and is currently in use in thousands of firearms stores all across
the country.

The large 12"x18-1/2" format is handy for easy listing of all BATF
required information. With ever-changing liability and "negligence" laws,
we can only guess at what might be a future liability problem five or ten
years from now. Every firearm owner really should have a complete
record of "receipt" and "disposition" of each and every firearm. Just ask
your local dealer ... You do not want BATF at your door informing you
that you are the last trace to a firearm, and NOT have a record of the
history of that firearm on hand.

Also, in the unfortunate event that your firearm might be stolen, you need
to have an accurate record of exact serial numbers, make, model, etc.
for police reports and insurance purposes. Otherwise, you open
yourself up to possible future liability problems.

The professional NAFLFD firearms record book has 500 complete
"receipt" and "disposition" spaces for 500 transactions. For the average
collector, this is enough room for a lifetime of firearms collecting. And for
the dealer, the NAFLFD book is a must for effective record-keeping. At
only $19.95, which includes shipping and handling, it's real effective
firearms insurance. MasterCard and VISA are accepted. Call today:
[phone] or email us at [e-mail]. Don't wait until
it's too late.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  NYT: Philadelphia takes action against gun violence
Date: 20 May 1998 14:45:50 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Source:  New York Times

May 20, 1998

Philadelphia Takes Action Against Gun Violence
By MICHAEL JANOFSKY

PHILADELPHIA -- For all the years he spent as a criminal and a drug user,
Jose Rojas never saw the kinds of things now taking place in working-class
neighborhoods like his in north Philadelphia.

"And it's going from bad to worse," Rojas, 47, said recently, sitting in
the New Creation Church in Kensington, a high-crime neighborhood where he
works as a lay evangelist. "During the time I was out there as a teen-ager,
then in my 20s, it was relatively difficult to get weapons. Now? Kids 11,
12, 13 years old -- they're packing .45-caliber semi-automatics, Uzis,
magnums, you name it."

And they are not afraid to use them.

While the rates of homicide and violent crime are declining in many of the
country's largest cities, they are holding firm in Philadelphia. Although a
slight dip over the first four months of this year has given officials some
hope, the number of homicides has hovered steadily at around 400 a year for
nearly a decade. A majority of the deaths were caused by high-powered
handguns, and a majority of the weapons were wielded by people under 23.

The problem has become so intolerable that Mayor Edward Rendell has
appointed a deputy mayor -- dubbed the gun czar -- to coordinate local and
federal efforts to stem the flow of weapons in the city. And in a move
modeled after the actions against tobacco companies, he has threatened to
sue gun manufacturers to recoup some of the money spent by the city's
hospitals to treat gunshot victims.

Officials say they think one of the biggest factors in the high homicide
rate is a 1995 gun law that has removed some of the discretion the police
department had to deny permits for carrying concealed weapons.

The new law, they say, has contributed to a boom in gun buying here that
has given Pennsylvania the distinction of having more licensed carriers of
concealed weapons than any other state.

The legal age for buying a gun in Pennsylvania is 18, and most permit
holders are legitimate gun owners. But law-enforcement experts here say
that the state measure opened the door to a vibrant black market in
handgun sales, in which buyers for whom routine background checks pose no
problem can act as straw-man buyers and resell the guns on the street for
handsome profits.

Furthermore, officials say, the sheer number of guns on the street in
Philadelphia means more weapons are finding their way into the hands of
young people.

Before the Uniform Firearms Action of 1995 was passed, state lawmakers
recognized Philadelphia, Pennsylvania's largest city, as a special case on
gun issues because of its persistently high crime rates. The police
department had the right to turn down a request for a concealed weapons
permit if the applicant could not demonstrate "a reasonable need." In 1994,
just 1,500 permits were issued.

Over all, the new law strengthened the application process by requiring
deeper background checks. But after the exception for Philadelphia was
eliminated, the number of permits issued soared, to about 11,500 in 1996,
said Richard Zapille, the deputy mayor appointed to lead the gun control
efforts.

"That was a real blow to our efforts here," Rendell said of the gun law.
"We weren't doing great before, but after the law passed, the number of
permits issued to carry a concealed weapon was unbelievable."

Rendell appointed a handgun violence task force four years ago when it
became evident that his city was failing to keep pace with the rest of the
nation in reducing violent crime. But efforts to slow the mayhem have not
made any appreciable difference in some of the city's poorest
neighborhoods, despite the slight dip in the homicide rate for the first
four months of this year. Guns continue to flow in, and landscapes of
abandoned factories, rotting houses and trash-strewn streets only make the
life of a gun-toting drug dealer seem that much more glamorous to
impressionable youngsters.

"Young children walking to school see these guys all in gold, wearing rings
on their fingers and $150 sneakers," said Rojas, who spent 13 months in
prison on drug charges. "They are influenced just by the way
they look. They think, 'I want to be like him.' They have money. They have
expensive sneakers and they have guns."

A study conducted by the task force found that of 273 people charged with
murder in a 40-month period through March 1997, 171 of them -- more than 62
percent -- were 22 or younger.

That is far above the national average. In 1995, the last full year for
which federal data is available, the Department of Justice found that among
the 16,701 people across the country arrested for murder or non-negligent
manslaughter, just 6,556 of them -- 39.8 percent -- were 22 years old or
younger.

In the same year, Philadelphia's homicide rate of 30.7 per 100,000
residents was nearly twice as high as New York City's 16.1 per 100,000.

Members of the mayor's task force, as well as community leaders like Rojas
who work with them, agree that much of the reason for the pervasiveness of
handguns is the same as in other cities -- drugs.

"The drugs begot guns, and they're both so entrenched now that good people
feel the need to carry guns," Zapille said in a recent drive through
Kensington and other low-income neighborhoods.

But Philadelphia has labored under additional burdens: The city was slow to
coordinate crime-fighting with community outreach programs. Deep losses in
its manufacturing base made Philadelphia's economic recovery less rapid
than that of other cities, and poverty is deeply entrenched in many
neighborhoods. Tougher gun laws in surrounding states have made purchases
here easier by comparison.

Among the six states that border Pennsylvania, four -- New York, New
Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland -- give local law-enforcement officials the
discretion Philadelphia once had to deny permits to carry a concealed
weapon to anyone they think does not have a legitimate reason. In West
Virginia, the police have no such discretion. Ohio does not permit carrying
a concealed weapon.

To quantify the magnitude of the problem in Philadelphia, the police
department and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
conducted an intensive study of trafficking in all type of guns last year.
The results included these findings:

- --In almost half of the legitimate sales, involving 38,338 guns, two or
more were bought at the same time. Almost 8 percent of the guns, 3,046,
were bought in purchases of 10 or more.

- --The police traced 2,865 guns recovered in arrests and found that 69
percent were bought in Pennsylvania, the highest percentage ever recorded,
and a 10 percent increase over 1996. They also found that 53 percent were
bought in Philadelphia, an 11 percent increase over 1996.

- --Firepower on the street is rising among the youngest offenders. Of 342
guns recovered from juveniles at the time of arrest, 65 percent were
semi-automatic weapons, a 13 percent increase over the relative number of
comparable weapons recovered in 1996. Twenty-six percent were revolvers, a
12 percent decrease.

Defenders of the state law, which was strongly supported by state Sen.
Vincent Fumo, a Democrat from Philadelphia, argue that problems in
Philadelphia stem not from the law itself but from lax enforcement of its
provisions, some of which are unique among the states that allow residents
to carry concealed weapons. In addition to denying a permit to anyone with
a felony conviction or mental health problem, the norm for most states,
Pennsylvania is now alone in banning the sale of guns to anyone who had a
police record as a juvenile and to anyone classified as a "habitual drunken
driver."

And starting in July, the law requires any private sale of a gun to be
conducted before a licensed dealer or local law-enforcement officer.

"We chose to focus on the potential gun owner," said Christopher Craig,
legal counsel to Fumo. "When the law is aggressively enforced, it will have
a dramatic impact in the state."

But Rendell and others scoff at the notion that those involved in illegal
street sales will suddenly comply with the state gun law.

"All I know is what we're facing on the street," said Thomas Stankiewicz,
an agent with the federal firearms agency in Philadelphia. "We've had some
success. But guns are always in demand, and the supply is readily
accessible."

Philadelphia police officials said that more aggressive strategies in
arresting people for illegal gun possession helped bring down the homicide
rate for the first third of the year, to a projected year-end total
of 321. And officials in other city agencies say new programs of community
outreach and intervention are also disrupting cycles of violence.

But in Rojas' neighborhood, progress is slow. Children walking to school
fear walking the blocks where gun sellers operate, he said, and on many
nights, gunfire punctuates the silence.

"Sometimes it sounds like Vietnam around my house," Rojas said. "The other
night, I heard two different-caliber guns go off. I didn't know what was
going on, but I turned to my wife and said: 'Maybe we'll read about
it in the papers tomorrow.' "

 Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company
======================================================================
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only.
======================================================================







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Unions and the RKBA -Forwarded
Date: 21 May 1998 08:14:55 -0700

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The AFL-CIO is gearing up for another assault on our Republic . They plan
to organize at the grassroots level , spending unbelieveable money doing so
.

Prez. Sweeney has assured the Democart Party he will train and send out
field co-ordinators for this next ellection . They will help the most
liberal , anti-freedom candidate they can find .

I wonder how many union members know that Sweeney is a card-carring member
of the Democratic Socialist of America ? An organization sworn to coverting
our republic to a socialist democrocy . These folks are for state controled
everything .

It's not just about guns - it's about freedom .

God Bless You All , and God Save Our Republic . Don


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Memorial Day Thought (fwd)
Date: 21 May 1998 10:48:47 -0700

----------Forwarded Message----------

Organization: Mori Ante Cedere!

Got this from a friend in the military. All I can say is WOW!
Nancy
===============

Condensed from a speech by Leo K. Thorness, recipient of  The
Congressional Medal of Honor.

      You've probably seen the bumper sticker somewhere along the road.
It depicts an American Flag, accompanied by the words "These colors
don't run." I'm always glad to see this, because it reminds me of an
incident
from my confinement in North Vietnam at the Hao Lo POW Camp, or the
"Hanoi Hilton," as it became known. Then a Major in the U.S. Air Force, I
had
been captured and imprisoned from 1967-1973. Our treatment had been
frequently brutal. After three years, however, the beatings and torture
became less frequent.

      During the last year, we were allowed outside most days for a
couple of minutes to bathe.  We showered by drawing water from a
concrete tank with a homemade bucket. One day as we all stood by the
tank, stripped of our clothes, a young Naval pilot named Mike Christian
found the remnants of a handkerchief in a gutter that ran under the
prison wall.  Mike managed to sneak the grimy rag into our cell and
began fashioning it into a flag.

      Over time we all loaned him a little soap, and he spent days cleaning
the material.  We helped by scrounging and stealing bits and pieces of
anything he could use.  At night, under his mosquito net, Mike worked on
the  flag. He made red and blue from ground-up roof tiles and tiny
amounts of ink  and painted the colors onto the cloth with watery rice
glue. Using thread  from his own blanket and a homemade bamboo
needle, he sewed on stars.

    Early in the morning a few days later, when the guards were
not alert, he whispered loudly from the back of our cell, "Hey gang,
look here."  He proudly held up this tattered piece of cloth, waving it
as if in a breeze.  If you used your imagination, you could tell it was
supposed to be an American flag. When he raised that smudgy fabric,
we
automatically stood straight and saluted, our chests puffing out, and
more than a few eyes had tears.
      About once a week the guards would strip us, run us outside
and go through our clothing.  During one of those shakedowns, they
found Mike's flag. We all knew what would happen.  That night they
came for him.  Night interrogations were always the  worst.  They
opened the cell door and pulled Mike out.  We could  hear the beginning
of the torture before they even had him in the  torture cell.  They beat him
most of the night.

   About daylight they pushed what was left of him back through the cell
door. He was badly broken; even his voice was gone.  Within two
weeks,
despite the danger, Mike scrounged another piece of cloth and began
another flag. The Stars and Stripes, our national symbol, was worth the
sacrifice to him.

     Now whenever I see the flag, I think of Mike and the morning he
first waved that tattered emblem of a nation.  It was then, thousands  of
miles from home in a lonely prison cell, that he showed us what  it is to
be truly free.


*********************************************************
To post a message to AEN NEWS, address it to [e-mail].



Regards,

Jim

**********************************************************
James A. Ross -Ross Group, LLC -Manassas, VA USA
Surveillance and Countersurveillance Services Worldwide
Telephone:  800-US-DEBUG -Facsimile:  703-365-0363 email:
[e-mail]  - home:  http://www.rosseng.com
**********************************************************


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Gun Owners Petition (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 21 May 1998 17:53:44 -0700

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This may bear some discussion, but seems good so far.....
On May 20, ShootStuff wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

I am a WAC member (#45795) and a citizen who is tired of seeing my rights
eroded daily.  A group of us after much discussion in the forums of
www.guns.com came up with a petition that we want to present (with thousands
of signatures) to the pro-gun groups.  All we want is for them to work
together in a unified front against the increasing onslaught of both national
and international assaults on our basic and fundamental rights.  Please review
the petition and place a link on the WAC page to give the members the
opportunity to decide if this is a cause they want to put their name on.  The
address is http://members.aol.com/FIGHTFORUS/GunownersPetition.html

Also please send this message out to the email list.  The names are only going
to be used for this petition.  No mailing lists or requests for anything.
Just stand up and be counted.

Thank you
Dan Clark
[e-mail]

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 21 May 1998 18:01:25 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list





---------- Forwarded message ----------
Reply-To: [e-mail]

Posted to texas-gun-owners by [e-mail] (Sam A. Kersh)
DF uses ceramic bullets to cut down on richocets.  But they are deadly and
are an assasin's dream...

............................................................................

            Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down

Express-News: News: Nation

Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down

By Sig Christenson and Christopher Anderson
Express-News Staff Writers

First came the loud whirring of helicopter blades, then booming
explosions followed by the crackle of small-arms fire.

Dazed, confused and frightened, nearby residents in working-class
homes awakened in the dead of night, tumbled from their beds,
scrambled for shelter and called for help.

This wasn't war-torn Bosnia, the terrorist-ravaged Middle East or
the crime-plagued city of Washington, but another night of Army
Special Operations training Delta Force-style  --  this time in
Houston, Charlotte, N.C., and Des Plaines, Ill.

"We didn't have black-clad ninjas running through the city of Des
Plaines," said Police Chief Bob Sturlini, whose community of 55,000
people borders Chicago.

But by giving Army Special Operations troops the green light to use
their cities for urban counterterrorist training, top municipal
officials in Des Plaines, Charlotte and Houston had a bigger
problem: a public relations black eye.

In the past three years, the Special Operations Command has
conducted such exercises in at least 21 U.S. cities, including
Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans,
Pittsburgh and Seattle.

San Antonio was to be next in line for such exercises, but City
Manager Alex Briseño, Police Chief Al Philippus and Mayor
Howard Peak practically slammed the door Tuesday on proposed Delta
Force training here.

Peak said the crack outfit won't get the key to San Antonio unless
it can ensure public safety.

"They ought to go out and look for a set in Hollywood or
something," the mayor said late Tuesday. "If they're looking for a
place to play, that might be more suitable than a real, live city
and all the things we've got to look out for."

Said Philippus: "As far as I'm concerned, it's over. We're not
willing to support them."

The elite, deadly and super-secret Delta Force has spent the past
several months quietly negotiating leases and meeting with police
to map out nighttime mock air and ground assaults using live
ammunition, explosive charges and low- flying helicopters over
vacant West Side and East Side buildings.

A self-described Delta Force team leader Tuesday would not say
whether his unit asked to train here or even admit the unit exists.


But a two-page memorandum issued to the City Council, dated April
14 and signed by Philippus and City Attorney Frank Garza, describes
a meeting in which Delta Force members and municipal officials
discussed a mock assault.

The training exercises would involve about 100 Delta Force
commandos being dropped onto the rooftops of buildings by hovering
helicopters under the cover of darkness. They would use explosives
to blow their way inside, then fire on targets with possibly deadly
ceramic bullets.

No date had been set for the exercises, which would have included
St. Theresa's Academy and brushed homes on the Southeast Side.

"The nuns still live back there, and they're very protective," said
Councilwoman Debra Guerrero, whose district includes the academy.
"It's totally surrounded by neighborhoods."

Delta Force might not have gotten wind of public reaction had their
"raids" been sanctioned by the city, but Peak, Philippus and
Guerrero almost certainly would not have been as fortunate.

The flash, bang and pop of commando training in the city left
Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Dennis Nowicki and former
Houston Police Chief Sam Nuchia with a bad case of klieg-light
burn.

Like their fellow residents, neither man even knew Delta Force was
in town  --  until they faced the harsh glare of TV minicams.

"We had not informed the community," said Nuchia, now a state
appeals court judge, "and then, of course, the news media frenzied
on it."

In Des Plaines, hundreds of residents frightened by low-flying
helicopters and explosions, called police.

The city of San Antonio memorandum, citing a lengthy story in the
February 1997 edition of Soldier of Fortune magazine, said Delta
Force confirmed that $100,000 in property damage resulted from an
explosion in a warehouse district near New Orleans. In Miami, a
bullet fired during a Delta Force raid went awry, ricocheting into
the window of an all- night restaurant.

Commandos in Charlotte flew helicopters at treetop level over a
lower middle-class, predominantly African-American neighborhood
near a warehouse district on the night of March 4, 1997, prompting
one man to grab "his shotgun out of fear," Nowicki said. An old
abandoned warehouse just northwest of downtown was the target.

Nuchia said a Special Operations exercise startled Houstonians in
the Ship Channel area, causing residents to call 911.

Nuchia called the negative fallout from the mission "our
responsibility and our failure," but Nowicki said Delta Force
stumbled by putting its own needs ahead of his city.

"I don't think that they failed in their mission, but they failed
in helping us accomplish our mission," he said. "Our mission is to
maintain order and enhance the quality of life and to deal with the
fears in our community."

>....................end cite........................
Sam A. Kersh
CSM, USA (ret)
NRA Life Member BRR9724W
TSRA Life Member
JPFO, LEAA 52662
Ducks Unlimited
Operation Game Thief
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/csmkersh.htm

--
For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to [e-mail]
with the word help in the message body.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Some first hand info on the Springfield shooting
Date: 22 May 1998 09:05:41 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

For the sake of clarity and attention to detail, I have a wife here who's
sister was present at this incident. Reuter's missed/glossed a few points:

On May 21, 1998 5:10 PM EDT, Todd Murphy wrote:

>SPRINGFIELD, Ore. (Reuters) - A heavily-armed 15-year-old boy opened
>fire in a high school cafeteria Thursday, killing one person and
>injuring at least 23 others...
>The youth, who
>had been expelled Wednesday for bringing a gun to school, stood
>on a table in the Thurston High School cafeteria...
He didn't stand on the table, he stood AT the table, where he had
previously been sitting. No Rambo Image here, sorry.

>When he ran out of ammunition he reached for one of several other
>weapons but was tackled by students...
He didn't run out of ammo before he was tackled. One of his tacklers was
shot in the hand while tackling him.

>who held him until police arrived, witnesses said.
"Held" him is a little off. The boys BEAT THE LIVING TAR out of Kip. We are
talking about a major pummeling from a couple of wrestlers. The kid holding
him down for the beating reports that Kip was screaming for them to quit
pounding him, but the 'holder' just told him to shut up.

>One witness told reporters one of the
>students who tackled the gunman was shot and wounded.
How could this happen if he had run out ammo, as this article claims
earlier. By the way, this kid that got shot while tackling Kip did not let
the wound stop him from joining in on the pounding.

A student, after assisting a fellow classmate with a gaping back wound,
approached my sister in law in tears. She is now in hysterics.

Kiplin Kinkle, fifteen, was voted "Most Likely to Start World War Three"
two years in a row in the school's yearbook. He was known to take things
too far, and hold grudges.




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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  CNN Poll on School Shooting in Oregon (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 09:08:11 -0700

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On May 21, David Wisniewski wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

http://www.cnn.com

As of 6:40pm EST

Who or what is most responsible for school violence?

Kids 9%
Parents 29%
Schools 1%
Media %12
Access to Guns 26%
All of the Above 20%
None of the Above 2%

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  HCI STATEMENT - SHOOTING IN OREGON
Date: 22 May 1998 09:20:27 -0700

http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/reaction.htm


For Immediate Release
May 21, 1998

STATEMENT OF SARAH BRADY RE:
SCHOOL SHOOTING IN OREGON

(Washington, D.C.) "Today#s shooting at Thurston High School in
Springfield, Oregon should bring every American to the realization that
the tragedy of kids and guns will not  go away # and is, in fact,
escalating.

"In early June, Representative Carolyn McCarthy will introduce
comprehensive legislation, the Children Gun Violence Prevention Act of
1998, because it is time that Congress takes responsibility for preventing
more Springfields and more Jonesboros. This legislation will hold parents
responsible if they leave their guns accessible to kids, and stringently
penalize those gun dealers and others who are selling firearms to
juveniles. It will demand that the gun manufacturers finally develop and
market a childproof gun, and extend the current ban on juvenile handgun
possession to include semi-automatic assault rifles. The research dollars
that the federal government, at the behest of the gun lobby, has not been
spending on gun injuries and fatalities will be restored, and the
Department of Education will help communities develop a comprehensive
and objective curriculum about guns and gun violence for use in their
schools.

"No Member of Congress will be able to find a sensible or sane reason to
refuse support to this legislation. This is about responsibility, safety and
education. In 1998, our politicians must support legislation to keep guns
out of the hands of our kids because Americans cannot stand to read
about one more horrific child murderer.

"There is much we do not yet know about Springfield, but one thing is
clear. The #Southern gun culture# that was examined so closely after
Jonesboro does not pertain to this small town in the Pacific Northwest.
This shooting in Oregon demonstrates that there is nowhere in this
nation, no matter how low its crime rates, that is immune from the
problem of kids and guns. All it takes is one disturbed child with access
to one gun for this kind of tragedy to happen."

Information Related to the Springfield Shooting

Oregon received a "D" in Handgun Control, Inc.#s annual Kids & Guns
Report Card.

We urge all concerned citizens to call their Representatives in Congress
and urge them to co-sponsor The Children#s Gun-Violence Prevention
Act of 1998, that will be introduced by Representative Carolyn McCarthy.
The Capitol Hill switch board number is [phone]. Call today!

Please click below for more background information about the problem of
children and guns in the United States:

#Representative Carolyn McCarthy to introduce legislation to protect our
children. #Legislative Action that will protect our families and our
communities. #Guns in our Nation#s Schools: In the past two years, over
6,000 students have been expelled for bringing firearms to school#



More information about the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence#s child
safety programs, please click here.

# # #

Handgun Control, Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation#s largest
citizens# gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, DC, HCI
works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but
does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than
400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the
country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More
information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent
Handgun Violence, can be found on our website at
http://www.handguncontrol.org.


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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Freedom is not free -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 09:41:09 -0700

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    To all, to noone in general,

    This is a memorium, that appeared in the
the obit column, of The Herald, Everett, Washington State,
the essence is in the message.

    I, as a general rule, don't usually peruse the
obit column, but for whatever reason the forlorn look
on that young Marine's face caught my attention.
    So young I thought, to die, so early in life.
    The look of him is for all the world like
one of the daguerreotype photo's one sees of the
Civil War reproductions of soldiers of the period.
    If what follows don't yank at your chain, then
your mettle is tougher than mine.

ET

    In memoriam to Ronald M. Hayes, October 16, 1947 -
 May 21, 1967.

    I watched the flag pass by one day,
    It fluttered in the breeze,
    A younge Marine saluted it, and then
    He stood at ease;

    I looked at him in uniform, so young, so tall, so proud,
    With hair cut square and eyes alert,
    He'd stand out in a crowd.

    I thought how many men like him
    had fallen through the years,
    How many had died on foreign soil?
    How many mother's tears?

    How many pilot's planes shot down?
    How many died at sea?
    How many fox holes were soldiers graves?
    No, freedom is not free.

    I heard the sound of taps one night,
    When everything was still,
    I listened to the bugler play
    And felt a sudden chill.

    I wondered just how many times
    That taps meant "Amen",
    When a flag draped a coffin
    Of a brother of a friend.

    I thought of all the children,
    Of the mothers and the wives,
    Of fathers, sons and husbands
    with interupted lives.

    I thought about a graveyard
    At the bottom of the sea,
    Of unmarked graves in Alington,
    No, freedom is not free.

    Remember: Memorialize the fallen.




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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 09:55:47 -0700

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Grass Roots North Carolina/Forum for Firearms Education
            P.O. Box 401, Sherrills Ford, NC  28673
              [phone],  http://www.grnc.org

GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98

Irresponsible news coverage is contributing to gun deaths among children:
STOP CNN FROM CREATING COPYCAT SCHOOL SHOOTINGS

The shootings in Oregon are now creating fever-pitch news coverage
on CNN and other television stations.  The results will be the same
as those for similar incidents in Pearl, Paducah, and Jonesboro:
The continued death of children in schools.

Describing what he called "copycatting," criminologist Thomas
Blomberg was quoted in USA TODAY after the Jonesboro shootings:
"'Right now there are kids out there taking this in.  They're saying
`man, those kids in Arkansas were 11 and 13 and they blew those
people away and they were in camouflage, man.'"

HIS PREDICTIONS HAVE COME TRUE AND WILL CONTINUE
TO DO SO AS LONG AS THE MEDIA EXPLOITS JUVENILE
VIOLENCE IN PURSUIT OF RATINGS.

GRNC implores you to:

1. Contact CNN IMMEDIATELY at [phone], http://www.cnn.com/feedback/
and tell them in no uncertain terms:

  Their media feeding frenzies after recent school tragedies are
KILLING CHILDREN

  Non-stop coverage must cease immediately to avoid future tragedies.

  The media rightly maintains that gun owners must be responsible.
But so too they must be responsible in their news coverage.

2. Contact local newspaper and television outlets with the same message.

                                  --- end ---



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Reese/Civilian Disarmament
Date: 22 May 1998 13:29:16 -0600

Those who pull the gun ploy do
               so to avoid facing up to truth

               By Charley Reese
               Commentary

               Published in The Orlando Sentinel, May 19, 1998

               Orange County Chairman Linda Chapin, who seems to
               think she was elected County Mother, has finally pulled
               the gun ploy.

               The gun ploy is a tactic politicians who are not doing the
               job they were elected to do often use to distract voters.
               Chapin's job is being the top administrator of Orange
               County government. Judging from the problems at the
               jail and from the results of all the referenda, she's not
               doing a good job.

               So she comes out with the gun ploy, professing to be
               outraged and concerned about the rest of us allegedly
               having disinterest in saving children's lives. And she
                plays
               the ploy according to the script.

               First she exaggerates the problem. Accidental firearm
               deaths are dead last, even counting adults, as a cause of
               accidental deaths in the United States. The big killers of
               children are automobile accidents and, especially in
               Florida, drowning. In 1993, of the 90,523 Americans
               who died from accidents, 1,521 died in firearms
               accidents, and that includes both adults (by far the
               majority) and children. By contrast, 3,800 people
               drowned; 13,000 died in falls; 7,300 died from
               poisoning; and 41,000 died in motor-vehicle accidents.

               Second she trashes the National Rifle Association,
               accusing it of not being interested in keeping guns out of
               the hands of children and criminals. That is pure
               ignorance, at best, or a big, fat fib, at worst. The
               National Rifle Association is the premier teacher of gun
               safety and has been teaching gun safety and promoting
               stiff penalties for criminal use of firearms since long
               before Chapin even was born.

               She includes 19-year-olds as ``children'' and lumps
               together three separate, unrelated categories of
               accidents, homicides and suicides. She resorts to
               falsehood to rap the National Rifle Association and its
               members, and ends up advocating mandatory trigger
               locks.

               Now that's a stupid sugges-tion for two reasons. One, it
               is unenforceable unless she plans to declare martial law
               and conduct a house-to-house search on a daily basis.
               Two, someone stupid or careless enough to leave a
               loaded gun within reach of children would be stupid or
               careless enough to remove the trigger lock. You can't
               solve human problems with laws regulating inanimate
               objects.

               Finally, by blaming an inanimate object for the
               pathological behavior of human beings she reveals
               herself as irrational and superstitious. Yes, Mrs. Chapin,
               just put on your witch-doctor suit, shake your rattles and
               murmur at this inanimate object, the gun, and suddenly,
               by magic, it will give everyone a high intelligence
               quotient, high morals, a sense of responsibility and a
               healthy mind.

               Guns no more cause crimes or suicides than bricks
               cause buildings. A constant can never be the cause of a
               variable. In America, the constants are private
               ownership and ready access to firearms. The variable is
               the crime rate.

               As a matter of fact, firearms are less available and less
               accessible today than they have been at any other time in
               American history.

               But what liberals are really trying to do with the gun
                ploy
               is avoid facing the truth. The violent and brutish society
               they complain about is precisely the society they
               created. Everything liberals wanted they got.

               They wanted sexual promiscuity, dope, disregard for the
               law, no censorship of pornography, no laws against
               sodomy or public profanity, abortion on demand (the
               single biggest killer of children), easy divorces,
               acceptance of homosexuality, civilian review boards to
               second-guess police, Miranda warnings and public
               defenders, a welfare system that paid women to have
               illegitimate children and a tax system that penalized
               marriage, work, savings and investments and subsidized
               non-work and immorality. And they got every darn bit
               of it.

               It's called reaping what you sow, and it has nothing to
               do with firearms.



               [Posted 05/18/98 8:05 PM EST]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,
this material is distributed without profit to those who have
expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information
            for research and educational purposes.

            Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum
                       http://freedomlaw.com
promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its perpetrators .
. . lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." [Noam Chomsky]

     Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library
                  http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm
Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only as smart as you
make him" [Max Katz] and "the Law . . . should be accessible to every man and
at all times."  [Franz Kafka]

                    For Liberty in Our Lifetime,
              R.J. Tavel, J.D.,  managing partner,
             Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm,
Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful First Amendment litigation."
[J. Scalia]
                   http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Learning to take the blame (Fwd)  -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 16:09:56 -0700

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Here is a thoughtful and well written statement that goes to the heart of
the violence problem.  I believe the points the writer makes are well worth
remembering and using.

Brian Baron, Chair
Hawaii Citizens' Rights PAC




>From: SYTEK Robert <[e-mail]>
>To: "'Brian Baron'" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Learning to take the blame
>Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:51:47 -0400
>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8)
>
>Brian:
>On CNN today they again blamed the rise in school shootings on the
>availability of guns. It seems the media are willing to point the finger
>everywhere but at themselves.
>
>My own Mother, who is neutral on gun issues, pointed out to me a study that
>tracked children's behavior over a 10 or 15 year span. The study showed that
>children who do not have violent tendencies and watch typical violent
>television exhibit violent behavior and children who exhibit violent
>tendencies and do not watch typical violent television do not exhibit
>violent behavior.
>
>Remember when the movie the Exorcist came out in theaters? Late 1970's I
>recall. Anyway, back then movie and television violence wasn't so common. I
>recall during some of the more graphic scenes people actually getting
>nauseous and leaving the theater! Nowadays children view movies with much
>more graphic content and aren't affected. It seems our society in general
>has become desensitized to graphic violence and the representations thereof.
>
>For this reason, it is even more important that the common citizen is able
>to defend themselves. With children and adults desensitized to violent acts,
>they are able to commit these acts without hesitation or little thought.
>This makes the common citizen even more at peril and more in need of
>defending their life.
>
>Instead of more gun control, we need to examine the quality of out
>television and movie viewing. Should children be taught that violent acts
>are the way to solve problems? This is the lesson that our media teaches
>time and time again. But when it comes time to take blame for teaching this
>violent behavior, their finger always finds somebody else to point at.
>
>I am unsure of the details (who, what, when) of this study about violent
>behavior in children, so I will get more details when I call Mom this
>weekend.
>
>Brian, you may pass this message on to others if you wish. I don't mean to
>come off as so angry, but as a responsible gun owner I get tired of being
>blamed for the ills of society. All I want to do is keep my family safe
>until the police can arrive.
>
>Sincerely:
>Robert Sytek
>Technical Associate
>Complete Business Solutions Inc.
>
>
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  _TV_Causes_Murder_ -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 17:58:42 -0700

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As a bit of side ammo, there was a study done some years ago by a Dr.
Centerwall (sp?).  It's referenced in a book by Michael Medved, which if I
caught the title right, is called, "Hollywood Versus America".  Anyway the
subject studied was the effect of TV on areas that didn't previously have
TV.  The study has been updated, and the results show among other things,
that:

1.  Academic studies decline, and
2.  The Murder Rate _doubles_.

Just a little something to stuff down the throats of the Media Apologists.

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  GSL> DIPR Website -Forwarded
Date: 22 May 1998 18:14:44 -0700

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>Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
>Delivered-To: [e-mail]
>Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:19:52 -0400
>From: "Val W. Finnell, MD" <[e-mail]>
>Organization: NVCDL
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: GSL> DIPR Website
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>
>----------------------------------------- http://GunsSaveLives.com
>Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, Inc. (DIPR) now has a WWW
>site.  This will be one-stop shopping for scholarly refutations of the
>medical propaganda and other junk science dealing with gun-control.
>
>The site is brand new and will be updated almost on a daily basis.
>Please be patient.  Educate yourself by visiting:
>
>http://www.dipr.org
>
>
>--------------------------
>GunsSaveLives Internet Discussion List
>
>This list is governed by an acceptable use
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>or available upon request.
>
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>
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>
>GUNSSAVELIVES (GSL) IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST.
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>RIGHTS RESERVED.
>
>
******************
Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are
available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda  Latest additions are
found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the
heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send
[request index.txt] to [e-mail] and an index of the files
at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request <filename>]
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FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to [e-mail]
********************



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  RNC / New York Times -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 10:51:46 -0700

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This is a very important summary of how the Clinton Administration has
sold US security interests -- and why.  Please forward it to your own
lists.

Mike Collins
RNC Press Secretary
[phone] (Voice)
[phone] (Fax)
[phone] (Pager)
E-Mail: [e-mail]
Visit Our Web Site: http://www.rnc.org

ESSAY / By WILLIAM SAFIRE
U.S. Security for Sale

WASHINGTON -- A President hungry for money to finance his re-election
overruled the Pentagon; he sold to a Chinese Military Intelligence front
the technology that defense experts argued would give Beijing the
capacity to blind our spy satellites and launch a sneak attack. How soon
we have forgotten Pearl Harbor.

October 1996 must have been some tense month for Democratic
fund-raisers. The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles
Times had begun to expose "the Asian connection" of John Huang and
Indonesia's Riady family to the Clinton campaign.

The fix was already in to sell the satellite technology to China.
Clinton had switched the licensing over to Ron Brown's anything-goes
Commerce Department. Johnny Chung had paid up. Commerce's Huang had
delivered money big time (though one of his illegal foreign sources had
already been spotted). The boss of the satellite's builder had come
through as Clinton's largest contributor.

But public outrage was absent. The F.B.I. didn't read the papers and
Reno Justice did not want to embarrass the President. And television
news found no pictorial values in the Asian connection.

Stealthily, the Clinton Administration held back the implementation of
the corrupt policy until Nov. 5 -- the day the campaign ended.
Now the reporting of Jeff Gerth and The Times's investigative team is
putting the spotlight of pitiless publicity on the sellout of American
security.

We begin to see how the daughter of China's top military commander
steered at least $300,000 through the Chung channel to the D.N.C.
(Apparently Mr. Chung skimmed off a chunk and may be spilling his guts
lest he have to face his Beijing friends.)

We begin to learn more of the Feb. 8, 1996, visit of the arms dealer
Wang Jun to the Commerce office of Ron Brown, and Wang's "coffee"
meeting that day with the President, the very day that Clinton approved
four Chinese launches -- even as China was terrorizing Taiwan with
missile tests.

Clinton's explanation, which used to slyly suggest that China policy was
not changed "solely" by contributors, has now switched to total
ignorance: shucks, we didn't know the source of the money. But this
President's D.N.C. did not know because it wanted not to know;
procedures long in place to prevent the unlawful inflow of foreign funds
were uprooted by the money-hungry Clintonites.

Today, two years after this sale of our security, comes the unforeseen
chain reaction: as China strengthens its satellite and missile
technology, a new Indian Government reacts to the growing threat from
its longtime Asian rival and joins the nuclear club. In turn, China
feels pressed to supply its threatened ally, Pakistan, with weaponry
Beijing promised us not to transfer.

This makes Clinton the Proliferation President.

Who has helped keep this sellout of security under wraps? In the Senate,
John Glenn was rewarded with a space flight by Clinton for derogating
the leads to China of the Thompson committee. Fred Thompson's warnings
about China's plan to penetrate this White House were then scorned by
Democratic partisans; his Government Operations Committee should now
swarm all over this.

The House's aggressive agent of the Clinton cover-up, Henry Waxman of
California, is finally "troubled" by the prospect of damning evidence he
prevented the Burton committee from finding. At least three Democratic
partisans who foolishly followed Waxman in blocking the testimony of
Asian witnesses may have difficulty explaining their cover-up vote to
even more troubled voters in their districts.

The Gerth revelations lead to more questions: Where were the chiefs of
the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, their intelligence so
dependent on satellites, on the satellite technology sale to China?
Is anybody at Reno Justice re-examining testimony taken by independent
counsel investigating corruption at Commerce before Ron Brown's death?
Does Brown's former lawyer claim "dead man's privilege" on notes? Did
N.S.A. tape overseas calls of suspect Commerce officials? Who induced
Commerce to lobby Clinton for control of satellite technology?
And the most immediate: Will homesick prosecutor Charles LaBella,
beholden to Janet Reno for his political appointment in San Diego, dare
to offend his patron by calling for independent counsel?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Memorial Day. Sgt.Lionel Keating, N.O.P.D, R.I.P. (fwd)
Date: 26 May 1998 10:46:45 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Reply-To: [e-mail]

Posted to texas-gun-owners by Joe Horn <[e-mail]>
Lionel Keating was a brother to me for the past 20 years. He was a Sgt.
from the New Orleans Police Department and for those that remember the
murderous rampage a rooftop sniper started at the Howard Johnson's Hotel in
downtown New Orleans decades ago, Lionel was the assault team member that
ended that spree of violence in personal confrontation with the sniper. He
died last week, after a prolonged and valiant battle against cancer. He was
52.

He was a good husband, a good father, and raised two fine children, one of
them, Jeff, replaces his dad on the NOPD. He had retired from N.O. as a
Sgt., and, in  asecond career, was a Sheriff's Sgt. at St. Bernard Parish
Sheriff's office.

He fought for two tours in Vietnam as a River Rat, (Pibber or PBR), came
back and worked the streets, worked hard to advance and provide everything
for his family. We was devoted to the Constitution and the Bill of rights
and viewed an armed populace as backup and safety net for the
Cosntitutioin's protection.

He was a patient and fair policeman and never imposed his expectations of
himself upon others. He frequently gave money out of his pocket to those on
the skid. He saw all people as equal, some more fortunate than others, and
respected their human dignity.. Always said that he thought it was better
to be lucky than smart. He was the best back-up anyone in this job is ever
likely to have, either in a fight or against the brass for his officers. He
never gave anyone the extra thump after the fight was over.

His pain is over, suffering ended, and my grief is for the loss of such a
good man when such men are so sorely needed and for his grandchildren who
will be deprived of his goodness and wisdom.

Some will understand when I say he died well.

"So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where he has gone....
Where it's always double drill and no canteen.
'E'll be squatting on the coals
Giving drink to poor damned souls,
an' I'll get a swig in Hell from.....my brother, Lionel Keating.

plagerized from R. Kipling by me,

J Horn, Sgt.,
L.A. Sheriff's Dept., Ret.
RVN 1963/64 1966/68

To my brothers and sisters on the Wall: Every day of my life is dedicated
to the life you were cheated of.

To my Father, killed on the Franklin in 1945: I'm glad you cannot see how
quickly we've squandered and damn near lost our freedoms, and if you can
see what's taken place, I apologize, I've done my best and keep at it on a
daily basis, but we are few now.




--
For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to [e-mail]
with the word help in the message body.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Waco video -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 11:54:55 -0700

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We need an email campaign. We were able to help sell several copies of
the oscar-nominated documentary, "Waco: The Rules of Engagement,"
through Amazon.com recently.  It obviously must be selling more than a
few copies.  Today I find THEY HAVE REMOVED IT FROM THEIR CATALOG.

Amazon sells a lot of "Unintended Consequences" and other gun and
freedom titles.  Please email them at mailto:[e-mail] and
request they restore the Waco video, isbn 0966210506 to their catalog.
This video needs wide distribution so people know what's really
happening.  I imagine they were pressured to remove it by the NWO.

-Rick
get gun books and all books through:
http://thePentagon.com/Training
small commission to pro-gun groups
--
Don't agonize.  Organize.
http://GunsSaveLives.com


(Opinions here are personal and not those of any organization.)


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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  The BBC Poll -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700

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My comments to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp

     Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an
attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this
century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on
nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault
entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with
guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals,
while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for
cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding.
     Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in
the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the
past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have
always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a
shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_
of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous,
reaction.



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Guns, Schools, and The Press.. -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 13:59:44 -0700

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 This is some of the reaction by the press wrt the tragedy in Springfield,
 Oregon last week. Note that not *all* of it is/was negative. I wrote a
 quick note to the editor of the American Reporter in response to his
 editorial, which was printed (and enclosed) as well.

 First, off the Associated Press wire:

   Springfield schools Superintendent Jamon Kent said guns were not a
   significant problem in the district, but a survey released this week
   reported that 2 percent of Oregon high school students said they had
   brought firearms onto school property in the past 30 days.

   Robert and Linda Ryker, whose sons Jacob and Josh were among those who
   subdued the suspect, cautioned against making guns the issue.

   Instead the Rykers, members of the National Rifle Association, said
   their boys' familiarity with weapons made them more willing to move in
   when they got the chance.

   "They are not afraid of them," Linda Ryker said. "I think that all of
   that did lead to the fact that my boys did not panic when they saw
   (the gun)."

   The Ryker boys and other students credited with prevented further
   bloodshed said they did not want to be thought of as heroes, [...]

                              *  *  *

 Now, the American Reporter Editorial from Friday, May 22, 1998:

 The American Reporter Vol. 4, No. 815 - May 22, 1998
 <http://www.americanreporter.com/>

                              EDITORIAL
                          "KILL THE CULPRIT"
                               Joe Shea
                  American Reporter Editor-in-Chief
                           Hollywood, Calif.

 The culprit in the wave of high school violence sweeping the country --
 and there were three shooting incidents in American high schools today,
 including the carnage in Springfield, Ore. -- is drinking up quarters by
 the thousands and creating more elementary and high school shooters as we
 read.  Before we take guns from Americans, let's kill the culprit.

 The shootings have arced up ever since the introduction of a new
 generation of arcade games -- now available on desktops, of course --
 that offer graphic depictions of exploding bloody human heads.
 Some are atop drug dealers, some atop vampires, some atop monsters,
 but in each case the reward for the child who pulls the trigger is an
 explosion of brains that is apparently the next best thing to masturbation
 --and at the psychiatric level, is probably a substitute.

 I remember thinking several years ago when I first saw the new graphics
 that we would soon seen a strong upsurge in shootings by children.  Children
 mad at their girlfriends.  Children mad at their teachers.  Children mad at
 their classmates.  Children mad at their parents.  Mad children who grab
 guns and recreate the vicarious pleasure they get from video screens have
 opened fire on American schools.  What are we going to do about it?

 An assault on the First Amendment rights of games creators to compete with
 the bloodiest of 'em need not be restricted.  Someone just needs to take a
 hammer to those games.

 Kids spend hours watching those heads explode, night and day, in shopping
 malls, convenience stores, pizza joints and everywhere else a kid who has
 no parental supervision after school or at night -- even in his bedroom --
 can find them.  Is it so strange, when they become as mad and think as
 unrealistically as they do when their hormones start to rage --
 that they do in real life what they spend so many hours doing in fantasy?

 Give up guns?  When Congressmen and presidents take money from Chinese
 generals?  Can anyone really imagine a disarmed American society when
 politicians steal us blind and sell our jobs out as we speak?  When our next
 government may have Inc. after its name?  Not on your life.
 Let's learn to live with them, as the Swiss and the Israelis have.

 But video machines?  Go ahead, smash them to pieces.
 That will be more than a start.
                           *     *     *
 ________________
 THE A.R. MAILBOX
        +
 Mark C. Nasstrom
 American Reporter Subscriber
 Yachats, Ore.
 guns
 free               THANKS FOR NOT BEING PREDICTABLE
                          by Mark C. Nasstrom
                      American Reporter Subscriber

 Great editorial, as usual! (AR, No. 814 "Kill The Culprit") I just quickly
 scanned other news sources and didn't see anything written elsewhere about
 tv and movies. Wasn't there a movie not too long ago where some kid (maybe
 it was an MTV Video) walked into his classroom, and hosed the teacher and
 his fellow classmates? Yesterday, I believe, there was a kid in Texas who
 shot his girlfriend (?) in the parking lot. I saw it on Reuters.

 Thanks for not coming out with the usual disarm-the-American-populace
 mantra pushed forth in the aftermath of carnage such as this, as the
 gun-grabbing politicians will.

 Society is crumbling around our ears when kids go into a school and shoot
 other kids. Now, watch the politicians attempt to make political hay out
 of this tragedy.

 And few will notice.

 Mark C. Nasstrom
 Yachats, Ore.
 via Internet

--
  # #03 Seaview # Illegitimi non Carborundum #  ## The Lumberyard BBS ## #
  # Hardwired On The Edge of North America @ YACHATS 541.547.4605 OREGON #
  # ###### *^Oregon^Coast^Rural^Information^Service^Cooperative^* ###### #



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Form 4473 Firearm Registration -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 13:49:16 -0700

The
      PROponent
                   Peoples Rights Organization
3953 Indianola Ave   Columbus, OH 43214   [phone]
____________________________________________________________

Volume 9             April, 1997                  Number 4
____________________________________________________________

GUN REGISTRATION PROCEEDING NICELY...

     A pro-gunner remarked some years ago that there was no use
fighting against gun registration, because all the guns in America
were already registered!  It's just that the government hasn't
collected all the forms yet!
     But now the government IS collecting your name and registering
your guns.  The mechanism is quite simple and straightforward.  YOU
have already registered every gun you have purchased from a
"licensed" FFL dealer.  You filled out a 4473 "yellow sheet" giving
all the information any gun "registrar" would need to know (OK,
except maybe a copy of your fingerprints).  The law states that
when an FFL dealer goes out of business, those gun "registration"
forms get turned into the government.
     The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms wants your name in
a computer database so badly their teeth hurt!  You want proof of
this?  OK. The construction of such a database is totally illegal
and contrary to the expressed will of Congress. But the BATF simply
illegally went ahead and started computerizing the gun owners
anyway.  When Congress complained, they told Congress to take a
flying leap. But Congress much to their credit, did NOT take a
leap. They cut the ATF funding for doing this dirty work.
     But the gun-grabbers were not deterred. They pulled in IOUs
and as PRO members recall, recently got the funding for this
illegal registration activity restored.  Also the registration net
was widened by encouraging local law enforcement to break the "law"
by keeping "Brady" information.  Cleverly, while the "Brady" law
makes keeping a database a "crime" there is no punishment provided
for the "crime"!  To get around the no database directives of
Congress, the justice Department has invented the "FIST" software
designed for local law enforcement to legally generate databases
which can be accessed INTERNET-style by the Feds. Thus,
technically, "they" are not keeping the records.
     The ATF has admitted the "computerization" of the yellow
sheets, but tried to pass it off as "indexing" rather than what
they obviously have been trying to do from the beginning.  And now
with money restored, "indexing" of you and I can proceed apace.
     And there is obviously a plan to help provide the raw
materials of the gun registration list.  The plan is to drive as
many FFL holders as possible out of business, because every former
gun dealer is required to turn in his collection of gun
registration forms, "yellow sheets," to the ATF.  From there it is
one small step into the gun owners list of names file.
     An editorial in the February 5, 1997 Columbus Dispatch gloats
over this victory. They noted that the number of FFL holders has
dropped 56 percent in the last three years.  The Dispatch editors
didn't say so, but we are sure they understand that this could mean
the registration of up to half the guns sold legally in the United
States.
     Needless to say, the editor-whores at the paper instead of
pointing out that registration of honest gun owners does nothing
about criminal misuse of guns, choose to equate honest businessmen
with criminals.  They say:
     "It's impossible to say so with any certainty that there's a
connection, but common sense would suggest that perhaps there is.
Of course President Clinton is claiming credit in a statement that
says,  'Fly-by-night gun traffickers no longer have the cover of
federal law to peddle their weapons.'"
     This kind of calculated disinformation makes me so angry.
Common sense indeed!  What common sense tells me is that there
clearly is NOT ANY DEMONSTRATED CONNECTION between honest
licensed
gun sales and criminal behavior such as murder.  The number of guns
owned has not decreased even though the number of licensed dealers
has.  And no one has yet to definitively show a connection even
between the number of guns and the murder rate let alone between
gun dealers and the murder rate!  The editors at the Dispatch tout
a "common sense" two steps removed from real data.
     So my "common sense" tells me that only two possibilities
exist: 1. The editors at the Columbus Dispatch are some of the most
ignorant human beings on the planet. or 2. The Dispatch editors are
very well trained propagandists who like any common prostitute have
sold their skills along with their morality to gain a few pieces of
gold. I know my opinion, you make your choice.
     So why is the Dispatch crowing that FFL fees being increased
from $10 to $200 has caused record gun dealer declines? They note,
"The number of gun dealers in California has dropped by 15,000 to
8,827, while in Texas there are 9,187 gun dealers, 11,000 fewer
than in 1993."  Could the REAL reason be it's those stacks and
stacks of registration forms?  That's thousands and thousands of
names and addresses to be used "when the time comes" for ninja-clad
"jackbooted thugs" to start kicking in our doors because "the laws
have changed".  Are newspaper editors lovers of big brother
dictatorial rule?  Maybe.
     But our "ignorance" option holds some water here too.  We'll
bet that these editors are beating the drum for the "benefits" of
totalitarian rule, thinking that by reason of their lengthy
"service" to the power elite, they are going to be part of the
ruling class "when the day comes". <snort!>  Fat chance!
     These clowns are so dumb that they can't even figure out that
they are only of some value so long as they are needed to dupe the
public and spread lies and propaganda.  But when the power elite
truly takes control, you can be sure that these media people will
be disposed of as easily and as ruthlessly as they will [try to]
dispose of us gun owners.
     You see, not only do they now have a growing list of gun
owners with names and addresses, but those seeking power no doubt
already have a complete list of the names and addresses of all
newspaper editors too!
____________________________________________________________

The PROponent is published by:
Peoples Rights Organization;
3953 Indianola Ave.;  Columbus, OH 43214;
Tel [phone]
Fax [phone] (note new fax number!)
EMAIL:
Compuserve ID: 2PRO
     INTERNET: [e-mail]

               or [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  The BBC Poll -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700

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My comments to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp

     Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an
attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this
century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on
nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault
entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with
guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals,
while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for
cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding.
     Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in
the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the
past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have
always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a
shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_
of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous,
reaction.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: [AR15-L] Re: Let Teachers CCW (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 14:46:02 -0700

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On May 25, Real Name: wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

Hi,

http://www.mclaughlin.com/

     The Mclaughlin Group, PBS program .

     Go vote on whether China-Gate is
Treason .

     Voting is running 60%-80% Treason,
by age group .

     Spread this URL far, and wide .

Stay Stronger,
Ken.


[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: [AR15-L] Re: Let Teachers CCW (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 14:50:28 -0700

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On May 25, Real Name: wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

Hi,

http://www.mclaughlin.com/

     The Mclaughlin Group, PBS program .

     Go vote on whether China-Gate is
Treason .

     Voting is running 60%-80% Treason,
by age group .

     Spread this URL far, and wide .

Stay Stronger,
Ken.


[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  The BBC Poll -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

My comments to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_100000/100102.asp

     Bans do not work in a free society. The US once tried to ban liquor, an
attempt which led to death in the streets back in the first decades of this
century. Or consider the attempt to ban drugs: They remain available on
nearly any street corner despite billions in costs, "no-knock" assault
entries by police, and the like. Shall we now repeat these "successes" with
guns? Doing so will create an even larger black market and bolder criminals,
while dividing the nation's citizens against each other. Now is a time for
cohesiveness, not divisiveness, amongst the law-abiding.
     Guns and children have co-existed in the US since its founding. Only in
the past few decades has the US started restricting guns, and only in the
past few years have child-gun incidents been on the rise. The guns have
always been there; the children have always been there. Blaming guns is a
shortsighted excuse for "doing something". We must address the _root_causes_
of this phenomenon rather than seizing upon an emotional, but dangerous,
reaction.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  MEDIA BLACKOUT-"ROLLING THUNDER" -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 16:49:14 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------999EC38A14061B5DFA97F15A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Over half a million bikers shut down Constitution Avenue! Where was the
MEDIA?

Last Sunday (Memorial weekendd) approximately 750 thousand Viet Nam
veterans rolled their motorcycles into Washington D. C. and essentially
shut down Constitution Avenue.  Bikers from all over the country
assembled at the Pentagon parking lot early Sunday morning,. At noon,
the parking lot was full with over 18 miles of highway closed down with
remaining incoming motorcycles!

Veterans from as far away as Alaska traveled to Washington so they
could show respect and give support to the servicemen and women
who fought and died half way around the world.

"Rolling Thunder XI" was the largest gathering assembled so far to bring
attention to the plight of all veterans, families, fallen brothers, POWs and
MIAs. Artie Muller, National Chairman of Rolling Thunder stated
emphatically : "This gathering of real Americans is designed to send a
message to Washington that those that were willing to die for their
country will never be forgotten or forsaken, we are only getting
stronger!"

Joyce Riley, Spokesperson for the American Gulf War Veterans
Association was one of the invited speakers to address the plight of the
Gulf War
Veterans. Viet Nam and Gulf War veterans share a common grievance
with the government because both were exposed to toxic agents and to
this day have been denied any meaningful treatment or
compensation."Where were the Senators? Congressman? Pentagon
officials? Where were the military leaders and so-called Viet Nam War
heros who claim to stand for their men? Where was the American
Legion? The VFW? The Veteran's
Administration?  How could this many people be gathered for such a
worthy cause and have the American media black this out all over the
country?"

The Gold Star Mothers consists of those who lost a son in Viet Nam. One
of the mother's explained, " My son was buried on his 19th birthday."
Another stated, "My son would have celebrated his 51st birthday
tomorrow."  Their appearance evoked an emotional response that cannot
be described in words.

All who attended agreed to return with at least one other person next
year so that maybe one and a half million will be at "Rolling
ThunderXII"!.

We encourage everyone to contact CNN at [phone] and ask them
:
"Why don't the men and women who were willing to die for their country
deserve as much air time as J.J. the whale? Why didn't they tell about the
2200 men and women that are still left behind? Why don't they tell you
20,000 Gulf War veterans have died?

America, at the wall this year the chant was: "WE DEMAND
ACCOUNTIBILITY." That goes for the media also. God bless the
POW/MIA's you are Not Forgotton, God save this Constitutional Republic!

--
American Gulf War Veteran's Association
3506 Highway 6 South #117
Sugarland,Texas 77478-4401
1-800-231-7631

"There can be a million lies but there is only ONE Truth"

     http://www.gulfwarvets.com



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Ron Paul at it again: Action Item -Forwarded
Date: 26 May 1998 08:19:09 -0700

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Posted to rkba-co by Nancy <[e-mail]>
-----------------------
Fire up the fax, email, phones and pens ....time for some action.

Nancy
===========> Subject:
>          Paul-Bearer
>     Date:
>          Fri, 22 May 1998 17:00:46 -0700
>     From:
>          Rick DeStephens <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To:
>          Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Arizona <[e-mail]>
>       To:
>          [e-mail]
>
>
> I was listening to the "BQ View" on 1280 this afternoon.  Seems TX Rep,
> Ron Paul has written some legislation saying that the SS number shall not
> be used for any goofy ID and database crap except for that which is
> directly involved with the social security stuff.
>
> He has but one (1) co-sponsor.
>
> I have already called our reps.  Perhaps we can spread this out around
> the country, Nancy?
>
> Rick


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: First, Atrocity, Then Gun Control Laws (Or Visa Versa???)
Date: 26 May 1998 07:31:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

NOTE: We have all observed that immediately prior to the passage of major
gun control legislation, at least one major firearm tragedy occurs -- or
major tragedies involving the deaths of children -- which conveniently
motivate passage of legislation which, under less hysterical conditions,
might otherwise be weighed and considered more carefully (or at least
considered Constitutionally) instead of being passed in typical
Congressional knee-jerk fashion.

For those of you who were wondering what legislation was critically pending
that required some kind of series of tragic deaths in order to motivate the
Congress and outrage the public into their herd mentality, here it is
below: planned and on the agenda by May 6th, 1998. This proposed
legislation was ready for introduction to Congress WELL BEFORE:

1. The Ocean City, Maryland suicide of a 12-year-old (suffocation) on
05/14/98 - ("Suicide Note Refers to `South Park'");

2. The student shooting death at Lincoln County High School in
Fayetteville, Tennessee on 05/19/98;

3. The Onalaska, Washington student suicide on school bus on 05/21/98 -
("In Washington, a school-bus kidnapping ends with a student's suicide");

4. The Springfield, Oregon shooting of 05/22/98 - (articles too numerous to
list individually);

5. The St. Charles, Missouri incident, also on 05/22/98 - ("Police say
three sixth graders plotted to kill classmates");

6. The San Bernardino, California student suicide at school also on
05/22/98 - ("Teen-ager shoots himself in head on high school campus"); and

7. The arrest of an Elmira, New York postal worker who was threatening to
bring a rocket launcher to work - also on 05/22/98 - ("Worker Charged Over
Rocket Launcher")

ALL of these news articles were posted in their entirety on the
Ignition-Point list at the time they occurred. You listees should be
observing these trends and connecting the dots. If anyone needs reposts of
any of these aritcles, send me a note and I'll gladly forward them to you.

Here is the pending gun control legislation, announced in a press
conference on May 6th, 1998:

Source: http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/may22-98.htm

REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTHY TO INTRODUCE COMPREHENSIVE LEGISLATION TO KEEP
FIREARMS OUT OF THE HANDS OF CHILDREN

At a press conference on Wednesday, May 6, 1998, Sarah Brady and
Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY-4) were joined by four mothers who
have lost a child to gun violence.

At that time, Representative McCarthy announced that she will be
introducing, in the next few weeks, a comprehensive piece of legislation
that will address all areas of concern about children's access to firearms.

The Children's Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1998 will:

Offer a comprehensive approach to the issue of children and guns,
emphasizing responsibility, safety and education;

Strengthen the law prohibiting children from having access to handguns;

Impose criminal penalties upon adults who fail to keep loaded firearms out
of the reach of children;

Require manufacturers to make safer, more child-resistant guns;

Provide federal support for development of educational materials and gun
violence prevention curriculum for children; and

Help identify and prosecute those who are selling guns to our children.

This legislation will be introduced in mid-June. Please call your
Representative and demand that he/she
co-sponsor this important legislation.

-----------------------
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material
is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research
and educational purposes only.
-----------------------

**********************************************
To subscribe or unsubscribe, email:
[e-mail] with the message:
(un)subscribe ignition-point email@address
**********************************************
www.telepath.com/believer
**********************************************


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting
Date: 26 May 1998 07:31:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Prozac Implicated in Oregon School Shooting

by MAUREEN SIELAFF
[e-mail]
The Vigo Examiner

SPRINGFIELD, OREGON - Before going on a wild shooting spree at his
Springfield Oregon high school that left 2 dead and 22 injured, Kip Kinkel
had been attending anger control classes and was taking a prescription drug
called Prozac. This particular drug has factored in almost all wild
shooting sprees which have taken place in the last ten years. Eli Lilly of
Indianapolis, Indiana was recently sued over the homicidal tendencies this
drug is alleged to induce in patients.

Prozac is commonly given to youth as a treatment for depression. In
the book "Prozac and other Psychiatric Drugs," by Lewis A. Opler, M.D.,
Ph.D., the following side effects are listed for Prozac: apathy;
hallucinations; hostility; irrational ideas; and paranoid reactions,
antisocial behavior; hysteria; and suicidal thoughts.

The following information is taken from form PV 2472 DPP, prepared by
Dista Products Company, a division of Eli Lilly and Company of
Indianapolis, Indiana. It was last revised on June 12, 1997, and can be
found in each package of Prozac.

Anxiety and Insomnia: In clinical trials for the depressed, held in
the U.S., 12% to 16% of those tested reported increased anxiety,
nervousness, or insomnia. In similar trials for those diagnosed with
obsessive-compulsive disorders insomnia was reported in 28% of the
patients, and anxiety was reported in 14%.

Altered Appetite and Weight: In controlled U.S. clinics 11% of patients
treated with Prozac reported an anorexic appetite. However, only rarely
have patients discontinued treatment with Prozac because of this symptom.
Those diagnosed with OCD, again, came in at a higher rate of 17%.

Other symptoms: (considered to be frequent by Dista) chills,
hemorrhage and hypertension of the cardiovascular system, nausea and
vomiting, agitation, amnesia, confusion, emotional liability, sleep
disorder, ear pain, taste perversion, and tininitus.

The outcome classification (%) on the Clinical Global Impression improvement
scale based on two studies showed that of those who took 40mg of Prozac 0%
were reported to be no worse, 33% showed no change, 28% were minimally
improved, 27% much improved, and 12% very much improved. Meaning that of
those tested only 39% showed any reasonable improvement from taking this
drug.

Though many are demanding stricter gun control laws as a solution to
this sudden increase in homicidal shootings, these events do not appear
to correlate to a sudden increase in firearm ownership. But when the
percentage of these killers that are on Prozac is compared to the
percentage of the general public on Prozac, a very disturbing pattern
emerges. Though Prozac does indeed help many people suffering from
depression, it appears that it does indeed also drive many into homicidal
rages.

When Kip Kinkel's home was investigated several bombs that he had
constructed were discovered. With a ban on bombs already in place, he
nevertheless managed to have several in his possession that he might
well have taken to school instead of guns. So the question arises, if
guns had been banned like bombs, would the danger have been averted?
The unmistakable answer is that it would not. And with the shootings
correlating far more closely with the psychiatric drug Prozac, why is
the public put in such great danger by its widespread use, while efforts
are directed instead toward something that shows no correlation?

On Tuesday, May 19th, Kip Kinkel's father took away his rifle, after
finding that Kip was taking the gun out of the house on unsupervised
ventures into the woods. The next day, Wednesday, May 20th, 15 year old
Kip Kinkel showed up at Thurston High School with a dangerous attitude
and a newly purchased stolen gun that he had gotten from another student.
A security guard caught wind of the arrangement and the two boys were
arrested, booked, and then released to their parents.

On Thursday, May 21st, Kip Kinkel walked out of his home after shooting
his parents with the rifle his dad had taken away from him and proceeded
to the high school. He walked into the cafeteria and fired off 51 rounds
of ammunition which resulted in the deaths of two of the students and
injuries of various degrees to 22 other students ages 14 through 18.
The onslaught ended when one of the wounded students, a 17 year old
wrestler, tackled Kip, and other students piled on top of Kip to help
restrain him.

Those who have known Kip Kinkel present very differing portrayals of
his life and his demeanor on an everyday basis. Gun control advocates
are outraged that "a gun" has again taken the lives of innocent citizens.
Others are saying that Kip Kinkel is just an average kid who went about
on a daily basis doing stunts that average kids do. Still other's paint
a depressing picture of a child and a family in crisis and at the end
of their ropes, and of a young boy who for years had displayed his
unhappiness, albeit apparently reasonless, by doing acts which should
have been considered highly questionable and certainly not normal.

A close family friend told reporters that Bill Kinkel had begun confiding
in him about four years ago about severe behavioral problems with his son.
The friend stated that the boy's parent sought counseling and attempted to
maintain a very structured home life. "As parents, they just kept trying."

The day before the shooting spree Mr. Kinkel contacted the Oregon National
Guard to inquire about having his son enrolled in the Guard's Youth
Challenge Program. An official with the Guard stated that Mr. Kinkel seemed
at the end of his rope, and that he wanted to get his son "mainstreamed
back into school." The Guard YCP takes in children who "are on the razor's
edge, ready to fall on the dark side." Obviously Kip Kinkel was already
over the edge.

His attitude regarding life and his subsequent behavior was irrationally
ignored by not only his closest friends but also the teachers, the school
nurse, school management, and police officials. Most had the attitude that
he was just a kid, that no one needed to be concerned. But how could this be?

All were well aware of the boys bizarre behavioral patterns. Although they
might say what a nice kid they thought he was, most can follow up with one
story or another of comments and actions that definitely describe a boy that
is anything but "average".

Apparently it is easier to drug our youth, to fill their bodies with drugs
that many times have worse side effects on their minds and spirits than the
problems they have. You name the attitude and there is a drug to supposedly
help or cure it.

It may be time to take the War On Drugs to where it can really be effective;
getting these society cop-out drugs out of our children's lives. It may be
time we rise and help our children through productive activities and quit
drugging them senseless.
http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com
Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner.
You will recieve one to three of our top stories or editorials
each day. Send your subscription request, and all other
communication to [e-mail].




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns
Date: 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600

As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on
hospitals and gun bans on Saturday.  I was quoted in this article - or to
be more precise, misquoted.

I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to
or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles.  What is true is that a nurse
who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at
work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security.

Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another
(female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting
room".  He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically
ill people.

I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a
correction.  In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight.

Sarah Thompson



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trib article on hospitals and guns
Date: 26 May 1998 21:58:26 -0600

As some of you may have noticed, the SL Tribune published an article on
hospitals and gun bans on Saturday.  I was quoted in this article - or to
be more precise, misquoted.

I did not tell Ms. Fahys, nor is it true, that I was raped while going to
or from work at a hospital in Los Angeles.  What is true is that a nurse
who parked in the same parking lot I did _was_ raped, and that my shift at
work frequently began or ended between 2 and 3 AM, when there was no security.

Also, the person who shot two emergency physicians and took another
(female) physician and a patient as hostages did not do so in a "waiting
room".  He did it in an emergency room full of seriously and/or critically
ill people.

I have written to Ms. Fahys and requested that the Tribune print a
correction.  In the meantime, I thought I'd set the record straight.

Sarah Thompson



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: More on Here it Comes
Date: 26 May 1998 18:24:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Fwd from June. Thanks!

>>If I was just a little bit more paranoid, I'd be
>>forced to suspect that kids are being hypnotically
>>programmed to perform these acts as a prelude to
>>a total gun ban.

>>What perfect circumstances to demand a gun ban.

It's funny, but I was thinking something very much along those lines as I
watched my local 'news' this morning...seems there was a 'hostage
situation' at a local KFC last nite....lots of footage of SWAT cops
crouching, ready to storm in...but it all looked suspiciously staged...

And the 'hostage situation' turned out to be this:  some guy came in
to the KFC at closing time wielding a gun, demanding money...the manager
'bravely' bats him with a broom handle, and then she and the two
employees still at work lock themselves in a storage room, from where
they call the police...so it was never a case of the intruder actually
holding these people...after a COUPLE OF HOURS of the SWAT team taking
over the neighborhood, banning patrons of other restaurants and a bowling
alley from leaving (thereby conveniently eliminating eyewitnesses), after
a police dog failed in its attempt to jump over the counter in the front
of the KFC (one suspects Fido had one too many helpings of the Colonel's
Special Recipe...), our brave boys in black were forced to actually go in
themselves to find....nothing...except 3 KFC employees locked in a
storage room...

Seems the gun-wielding intruder had just turned around and walked out the
door after the 3 employees locked themselves into the store room....

The whole 'story' seemed strangely benign...tho wielding a gun, the guy
allows himself to be batted with a broomstick, allows the 3 KFC personnel
to lock themselves in the store room, and then apparantly turned around
and walked out without taking anything...

As I said, the whole thing had an aura of a staged event...especially
since the news cameras just happened to be there to get closeup shots of
the SWAT team a la "Cops"...

And as I watched it this morning, I was thinking "Was this staged to give
a pretense to 'something should be done about all these guns' arguments?"

BTW, the 'news' was all aglow with praise for the 'good job' the police
did, conveniently glossing over the fact the perp got away, and the cops
don't have a clue to who/where he is...supposedly...

June  ;-)
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
           A smile is a curved line that sets things straight.
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*

                                    /\
                                   .\/
                                 .'
                           Q   .'
                           |-+'
                          / \           --ahjt


                        Go fly a kite!  It's fun.
*========================================================================*
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: 1st Gun Confiscation ! - With No Crime Committed
Date: 26 May 1998 18:24:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

15-year-old charged, father's guns seized after teacher threatened
Associated Press, 05/26/98 11:20

LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) - Skittish after a wave of school
shootings, police arrested a 15-year-old boy and seized more than 20
guns legally owned by his father after the boy showed a teacher a
drawing of someone being shot.

The Pinelands Regional High School sophomore was charged with making
terroristic threats against the 35-year-old teacher Friday. Fearful that
the boy had access to them, police seized the weapons - including two
AK-47s - and more than 100 rounds of ammunition as a precaution.

The father had the appropriate ownership documents for the weapons and
was not charged, police said.

``There has to be a concern in the wake of everything going on around
the country,'' said police Detective Robert F. Knapp, referring to last
week's schools shooting in Springfield, Ore., and others that preceded it.

Neither the boy's name nor the teacher's name were released.
The teacher told police the boy showed her ``a handwritten drawing of a
person being killed at gunpoint,'' according to police reports. While in
class, the boy had showed his teacher the drawing and asked what she
thought of it.

The drawing depicted a male victim in the crosshairs of a rifle scope
saying ``Help.'' Another figure in the drawing said ``You're dead.''
The boy had behavior problems in school and ``past incidents of
aggressive behavior,'' Knapp said.

In addition, the boy had written a fairy tale in his English class that
included a graphic murder, said Tish Steward, a math teacher at the
school who is president of the Pinelands Teachers' Association.

``To tell you the truth, I'd be very disturbed,'' said Steward. ``It was
very frightening to this particular person.''

The boy, who was released to his parents, was scheduled to appear
Tuesday in Ocean County Family Court.
--
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/146/15_year_old_charged__father_s_guns_.htm



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: More offensive cartoons....
Date: 27 May 1998 00:58:36 -0600

Check out http://www.salonmagazine.com/comics/

If you're not reading this Wednesday, go to the Wednesday "cartoonist",
Keith Knight.

Comments may be sent to [e-mail]

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  For Sale -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 12:54:28 -0700

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[If anyone is looking for a real gem, I came across this ad.] --Ken

1776 Constitution for sale. Inherited from original owner. Hasn't been
used for years, but can be easily restored to its original condition by
extermination of the rats which have taken up residence under the hood
and the removal of useless accessories which were added by a long series
of unethical mechanics who saw the prospect of making more money if it
continually drifted to the right or the left than if the integrity of
its original design was retained. Truly must be seen to be appreciated.
Must be appreciated to be truly seen.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Tom Lantos & 2,000 Ak47's  -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 13:02:00 -0700

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---------- Forwarded message ----------

Topic: White Water

The Secret Scandal -- Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring

Washington Weekly
5/10/98

                   The Secret Scandal

               Tom Lantos Beneficiary of Chinese Arms Smuggling Ring


Going back to 1985, Linda and Victor Huang have repeatedly donated money
to the political campaigns of California Congressman Tom Lantos and his
New Hampshire son-in-law Dick Swett. In 1996, Linda Huang was arrested in
a plot to smuggle 2,000 Chinese AK-47s into the United States in violation
of the federal ban on assault weapons. Arrested together with Linda Huang
were seven Chinese-American residents of the Bay Area of California.
Federal prosecutors in San Francisco also sought the help of China to
prosecute seven high-ranking Chinese officials in the arms smuggling plot.
The Chinese officials were all part of the state-run Norinco and Poly
Technologies arms companies, implicated by U.S. intelligence in the export
of missiles to Pakistan and Iran.=20

Before the arrests, the head of Poly Technologies, Wang Jun, met in the
White House with President Bill Clinton. Instrumental in arranging the
meeting was one Charlie Trie.=20

The participation of Linda Huang in a drug smuggling ring sponsored by the
People's Republic of China caused an uproar in the Chinese dissident
community in California. It turns out that the Huangs have hosted leading
dissidents for extended periods of time. It is now suspected that they did
so on behalf of Chinese intelligence in order to infiltrate and spy on the
Chinese dissident movement in the U.S.=20

This brings us back to Tom Lantos. On the House Government Oversight and
Reform Committee he has been instrumental in blocking the investigation
into illegal Chinese donations to the Democratic National Committee and to
the White House. He has done so by (1) preventing the immunization of
witnesses with knowledge of illegal money transfers, (2) by attempting to
discredit veteran FBI agent Jack Wickman who retired rather than comply
with an unprecedented DOJ demand that he name a secret China source on
illegal donations, and (3) by viciously attacking Chairman Dan Burton and
witnesses appearing before the Committee.=20

The White House has now shown its gratitude by appointing Lantos'
son-in-law Dick Swett to ambassador of Denmark. The heavy baggage carried
by Swett, however, means that Senate confirmation is far from assured. In
fact, it seems unlikely. First, some Senators find him unqualified for the
job. Second, during his 1996 bid for the U.S. Senate, Dick Swett violated
campaign finance laws. He refused to pay the fine. Not until last week,
when his Senate confirmation appeared in trouble, did he pay the $65,000
fine for his violation.=20

The mainstream media is obsessed with Dan Burton's "scumbag" remark and
his release of edited tapes of Webster Hubbell's prison conversations.
This may be grounds for his removal, the free press claims. Yet donations
to a member of his committee who defends the indefensible and assails the
unassailable from a Chinese arms smuggling ring appears to have slipped
through the cracks among our fine investigative press. Could that be
because Tom Lantos is a Democrat?=20

[An Internet sleuth, who wishes to remain anonymous, contributed to this
report]


 Published in the May 11, 1998 issue of The Washington Weekly. Copyright =
=A9
1998 The Washington
        Weekly (http://www.federal.com). Reposting permitted with this
message intact.=20






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 13:04:52 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could
you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and
security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if
someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The
threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every
back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the
_law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor
of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an
outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune
systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the disease.

Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We
should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every
faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack
a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to
stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could
refocus on education.

RLH

-----
<excerpted under fair use>
     KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of
McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's
only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to
class.
     Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board
member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents
north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to
class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in
school three weeks ago.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 14:12:52 -0600

At 01:04 PM 5/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>This is an attitude thing. Even if we passed a law banning all guns, could
>you _really_ ignore such threats? Even with all the metal detectors and
>security at airports, they can't ignore a gun or bomb threat. Face it - if
>someone wants to get a gun or a bomb somewhere, the possibility exists. The
>threat is real. So how do we react to every threat, every idle rumor, every
>back-alley whisper? By disarming the _honest_ people? By making the
>_law-abiding_ people more helpless? By tipping the scales even MORE in favor
>of the criminals? That just doesn't make sense. That's like answering an
>outbreak of plague by giving everyone the flu to weaken their immune
>systems. Far better to have healthy people able to defend against the
disease.
    Well up to here, we agree....

>Some are proposing to allow school faculty to carry concealed at school. We
>should go one step farther: It ought to be a job requirement for every
>faculty member to be trained and carry every day. No one is going to attack
>a school if they know that several dozen faculty members are prepared to
>stop them. The school violence would end immediately, and the schools could
>refocus on education.
    Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to,
carry concealed.  But _required_?
That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties.
Just as people have the right to bear arms, they also have the right to
choose not to.  That's what living in a free society is about.
    Besides, how would you enforce it?  What standards of proficiency would
you require?  Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training?  Who would
bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis,
shoot a student or other faculty member?  My kids already miss far too many
days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having
"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and
any other excuse they can come up with to not teach.  I don't want the kids
to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range.
    And teachers are not perfect.  Some of them probably would not even meet
the requirements for CCW.
    I'd rather have teachers who are at least proficient in English, math,
history and science, in addition to whatever their area of "expertise" is.
If they're proficient with firearms, so much the better, but I'm not
willing to require, or pay for, teachers to carry firearms.

><excerpted under fair use>
>     KANSAS CITY, Mo. (Reuters) - Classes in the small, rural community of
>McLouth, Kan., were canceled Wednesday after officials shut down the town's
>only school following threats by a middle school student to bring a gun to
>class.
>     Officials said concerns surfaced Sunday night when a school board
>member heard a rumor that was circulating through the town of 900 residents
>north of Lawrence, Kan., that one of the students planned to bring a gun to
>class. The student, a male, reportedly had a fight with another boy in
>school three weeks ago.

    More socialist idiocy.  It's a basic principle of American law that you
punish only the _guilty_.  If a kid threatens violence, you can arrest him,
suspend him, search him, or ban him from the premises.  But you don't
punish everyone else at the school.  And you don't punish his parents by
confiscating all of their firearms either.

    The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may
finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that
are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they
ought to be just abolished.  (Private schools, of course, _could_ require
CCW as a condition of employment, although doing so would still raise a
host of difficult issues to resolve.)

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  FEAR: Justices to rule on whether officers must tell how to
Date: 27 May 1998 15:59:53 -0700


--------------E2F1A6643DB4F336CBF50BFA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A recent (5/5/1998) article in the Los Angeles Times, titled "High Court to
Hear Property Seizure Case; Law: Justices to rule on whether officers
must tell  innocent homeowners how to get their valuables  back. Issue
stems from a botched West Covina raid", says that the Supreme Court
has agreed to hear a case that grew out of a faulty police raid in West
Covina. The article says in part,

                   "The case, to be heard in the fall, renews the dispute
between the U.S.
                    appeals court in California and the high court over the scope
of
                    constitutional rights.

                       Last year, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that
the city
                    of West Covina violated the constitutional rights of a local
couple when
                    it failed to clearly tell them how they could recover $2,469 in
cash
                    taken from their home.

                       The case began in May 1993, when Lawrence and
Clara Perkins returned
                    home to find their doors damaged, their belongings in
disarray and their
                    cash savings missing from a locked closet. They also found
a notice,
                    which included the name and phone number of a detective,
saying that
                    their house had been searched by West Covina police under
a warrant
                    issued by a municipal judge."

(The cops were looking for information on a fellow that used to rent from
the Perkins.)

Perkins tried to get information at the court house on how to get his
property back but instead got a big run-around. For example, he was told
that he needed the search warrant number but they couldn't give him that
because the "warrant was sealed".

The city attorney said he just didn't try hard enough;

                    "It's easy to do. There is an adequate remedy, and he didn't
follow
                    it," said Priscilla F. Slocum, a Pasadena lawyer who
represented the
                    city. "This is a case of a person who halfheartedly tried to
get his
                    money back, made one more try and then gave up."

Well, there you go -- all you people whining about the governement
stealing your property and not giving it back, it is your fault. You are just
not trying hard enough to get it back!

We must wait to see if the Supreme Court agrees with that infallible logic.

[Posted by Leon Felkins on May 27, 1998]
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 "Forfeiture:" http://www.magnolia.net/~leonf/politics/forfeit.html
 -- Email: [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"[T]o live outside the law, you must be honest," -- Bob Dylan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 16:49:44 -0600


On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:

>    Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to,
>carry concealed.  But _required_?
>That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties.

Not at all.  There are any number of requirements imposed with
teaching in a government run school--or any other job.  We require
(supposedly) teachers to be proficent in any number of things not
directly part of their job.  EG, math and science teachers must be
proficient in written and spoken english.  Before you say that is
obvious and clearly necessary to their job, go take a math or science
course at a major university which does not impose this requirement.
You can learn math or science from someone who is far from proficient
in english.  It's tough, but it can be done.

More closely related to requiring CCW are requirements that teachers
be trained in first aid including CPR.  Teachers, especially grade
school teachers, are more than just instructors.  They are given, and
accept, a high degree of responsibility for their students safety
during the day. Requiring a knowledge of first aid is only prudent.  A
similar argument may be made for carrying guns.

>    Besides, how would you enforce it?

Just as any other requirement is enforced.  Testing and certification.

>What standards of proficiency would
>you require?

Somewhere between a current CCW and POST certification I should think.

>Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training?

The cost of all are insignificant compared to the cost of the college
education already required to teach.  The cost of that education (and
much of the continuing education required) is born by teachers
already, although schools could help cover those costs if they chose.

>Who would
>bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis,
>shoot a student or other faculty member?

The same entity that bears the liability if a teacher, acting in good
faith during a crisis, should inflict injury administering first aid.

>My kids already miss far too many
>days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having
>"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and
>any other excuse they can come up with to not teach.  I don't want the kids
>to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range.

Even cops are not required to practice shooting on a weekly basis.  If
you can pass the annual competancy tests in shooting without practice,
so be it.  If you have to practice every night, that is your problem.

>    And teachers are not perfect.  Some of them probably would not even meet
>the requirements for CCW.

There are doubtless people who would like to teach who do not meet the
requirments for English, history, etc.  There are people who would
love to be doctors but can't pass required exams to get into or
graduate medical school or maybe even pass the boards once they
graduate.  If you don't meet the requirements for a given profession,
trade, or occupation you better find a different one.

IF we decide that government school teachers must be proficient in
basic self defense using a gun in order to be entrusted with our
children for 8 hours a day, then it is their responsibility to do so.

I personnaly wouldn't require it just because there are so many
teachers who are good teachers who would likely have trouble with it.
But I would allow and even encourage via financial incentive, teachers
to become proficient and CCW.

>    The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may
>finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that
>are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they
>ought to be just abolished.

Amen.

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men,
 undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Thomas Paine

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded
Date: 27 May 1998 20:27:11 -0600

At 04:49 PM 5/27/98 -0600, Charles Hardy wrote:
>
>On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:
>
>>    Yes, school faculty members should be allowed to, or even encouraged to,
>>carry concealed.  But _required_?
>>That's absolute idiocy, not to mention a violation of civil liberties.
>
>Not at all.  There are any number of requirements imposed with
>teaching in a government run school--or any other job.  We require
>(supposedly) teachers to be proficent in any number of things not
>directly part of their job.  EG, math and science teachers must be
>proficient in written and spoken english.  Before you say that is
>obvious and clearly necessary to their job, go take a math or science
>course at a major university which does not impose this requirement.
>You can learn math or science from someone who is far from proficient
>in english.  It's tough, but it can be done.
    The schools have failed utterly in providing teachers who are even
proficient in English at a low high school level, much less any "esoteric"
knowledge, such as math, science, history, or arts.  That needs to be the
first goal.  If public school teachers were as proficient with firearms as
they are at writing sentences in English, I'd be terrified to live near a
school, much less send my child to one!  While it may be theoretically
possible to train teachers to use firearms, I seriously doubt that it's
actually possible, at least in our current society.
    Secondly, requiring proficiency in teaching skills and knowledge is a
reasonable requirement that violates no one's civil liberties.  However, I
can find no definition of teacher that includes the duties of armed guard.
It is, of course, possible to change the definition and requirements for
teachers, but such a change can't be done abruptly.
    Also, as self-defense advocates we must be careful to be consistent.
Many people here have raised the issue of bans on knives being an
infringement of the religious rights of Sikhs, who are required to carry a
specific type of knife.  If we are going to insist that the rights of Sikhs
be respected, should we not be equally vigilant to defend the rights of
Quakers and Buddhists whose religious beliefs generally preclude carrying
firearms?  If someone is a good teacher, I can see no reason to prevent him
from teaching whether he's a Sikh who wishes to carry a knife to school or
a Quaker who refuses to carry a firearm.   And what do we do about teachers
who have physical handicaps that prevent them from handling a firearm
safely?  Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that
requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even if she's
successfully treated?
    I don't like _ex post facto_ laws applied to gun owners and they're not
any better when applied to teachers.

>More closely related to requiring CCW are requirements that teachers
>be trained in first aid including CPR.  Teachers, especially grade
>school teachers, are more than just instructors.  They are given, and
>accept, a high degree of responsibility for their students safety
>during the day. Requiring a knowledge of first aid is only prudent.  A
>similar argument may be made for carrying guns.
    I don't know of any rational reason for refusing to learn CPR for kids,
although I suspect that some teachers are probably exempt from this
requirement also, due to physical problems that prevent their performing
CPR.  (I know some health care professionals get such exemptions.)  But
many, if not most, teachers sincerely believe that possession of a firearm
is morally unacceptable.  And for some teachers, particularly those who
work with emotionally disturbed, or "at-risk" youth, carrying a firearm and
having all the students _know_ you carry it, could present a very real
danger of students ganging up on a teacher to get the gun.  Those people
who chose a career in teaching in good faith, should not suddenly be told
they must carry a firearm at all times or lose their jobs.  If they'd
wanted to carry a gun at work all day every day, they'd probably have
chosen a career in law enforcement.  Again, we must be consistent.  If we
object to military and law enforcement officers losing their jobs because
of _ex post facto_ laws, we shouldn't be rushing to inflict such laws on
teachers.

>>    Besides, how would you enforce it?
>
>Just as any other requirement is enforced.  Testing and certification.
    And "showing metal" at the door every day before you're allowed in to teach?

>>What standards of proficiency would
>>you require?
>
>Somewhere between a current CCW and POST certification I should think.
    I think it should be more stringent than POST.  Most law enforcement
personnel shoot at adults who are at least presumed to be criminals.  A
teacher defending a class would most likely have to shoot _at a student_ in
a school full of kids.  Even if the student is a criminal, I think higher
standards should be used when shooting a 15 year old than when shooting at
an adult.  In fact, I suspect that most of the gunowners I know would have
great difficulty shooting a teenager, even with good cause.  I know I would.

>>Who would pay for the firearms, ammo and training?
>
>The cost of all are insignificant compared to the cost of the college
>education already required to teach.  The cost of that education (and
>much of the continuing education required) is born by teachers
>already, although schools could help cover those costs if they chose.
    That makes sense if you're looking at requiring firearms proficiency as a
requirement for a teaching degree.  But it doesn't work as well if you're
going to impose it as a new requirement.  And do you let teachers carry any
firearm they choose, or do you standardize it like the police do?  If you
model it on the police, then I think the taxpayers pay for guns and ammo,
which for each teacher is a considerable expense, especially when you
consider Utah's already abysmally low funding of schools.

>>Who would
>>bear the liability should a teacher, acting in good faith during a crisis,
>>shoot a student or other faculty member?
>
>The same entity that bears the liability if a teacher, acting in good
>faith during a crisis, should inflict injury administering first aid.
    To the best of my knowledge, the schools and their employees are exempt
from all liability related to job duties.  It appears that law enforcement
now has a license to kill.  Do we really want to give teachers that same
license to kill?  Especially considering how frustrating and thankless
their jobs already are?  Do we want teachers shooting kids because they see
a glint of metal from car keys, or even from a "Three Musketeers" bar -
knowing they're exempt from all liability?

>>My kids already miss far too many
>>days of school because their teachers are attending seminars, having
>>"career enhancement days", "preparation days", "morale-building" days, and
>>any other excuse they can come up with to not teach.  I don't want the kids
>>to lose another day a week so the teachers can go practice at the range.
>
>Even cops are not required to practice shooting on a weekly basis.  If
>you can pass the annual competancy tests in shooting without practice,
>so be it.  If you have to practice every night, that is your problem.
    And we both know how poorly police perform "in the field" compared with
"civilian" gun owners.  I don't think that level of competence is
acceptable in a school setting.  And if the UEA thinks that their teachers
are far too overworked to "allow" someone else to teach an Eddie Eagle
class, imagine the fuss if we actually required firearms proficiency!

>>    And teachers are not perfect.  Some of them probably would not even meet
>>the requirements for CCW.
>
>There are doubtless people who would like to teach who do not meet the
>requirments for English, history, etc.  There are people who would
>love to be doctors but can't pass required exams to get into or
>graduate medical school or maybe even pass the boards once they
>graduate.  If you don't meet the requirements for a given profession,
>trade, or occupation you better find a different one.
    Personally, I think anyone who wants to "practice medicine" should be free
to do so, and licensing requirements should be abolished as the restraint
of trade that they are.  If I need a board-certified surgeon, I'll find
one, without the help of the state.  If I'd rather be treated by a
practitioner of "Therapeutic Touch", I have that right.  If I choose to
have a chicken waved over my head, that's also my right.
    But that's slightly off topic.  The teachers currently teaching _do_ meet
the requirements for teaching, or at least we're told they do.  What you're
suggesting is roughly equivalent to declaring that all doctors who don't
get a certificate in computer systems administration will lose their
licenses.  After all, all medical records and insurance claims are now
computerized, and protecting medical records is important, so doctors
"need" to have these skills.  But I know quite a few excellent docs who are
minimally proficient with computers.
    As a society, we simply can't afford to lose large numbers of skilled
teachers, doctors, law enforcement officers, etc. simply because we decide
to change the rules in midstream.

>IF we decide that government school teachers must be proficient in
>basic self defense using a gun in order to be entrusted with our
>children for 8 hours a day, then it is their responsibility to do so.
    What if they all just say "no"?  Tyranny is tyranny.  I would refuse to
work or even volunteer at a school because they require background checks
and fingerprinting.  I consider requiring a CCW (with the requisite
background checks and fingerprinting) just as tyrannical.  The same goes
for drug screening, or any other invasion of privacy.  Advocating tyranny
"for the children" is just candy-coating the tyranny, and it doesn't change
anything.  Advocates of freedom and Constitutional rights should not be
advocating infringing the rights of others.  As much as I dislike Lily
Eskelson, I'm obligated to defend _her_ Constitutional rights as ardently
as I defend my own.

>I personnaly wouldn't require it just because there are so many
>teachers who are good teachers who would likely have trouble with it.
>But I would allow and even encourage via financial incentive, teachers
>to become proficient and CCW.
    I agree.  We'd lose too many good teachers by requiring it.  But I have no
problem with encouraging teachers to carry, and/or rewarding those who do.
(I suspect we're in far more agreement on this issue than it might appear...)

    I think ultimately we need to change society so that carrying a firearm,
openly or concealed, is a normal, everyday, and unremarkable activity, and
almost all citizens know how to handle and use a firearm safely, just as
most people today know how to drive (and even small children know either to
stay out of the street or how to cross streets safely).  In a society where
most adults were proficient with firearms, it would be much easier to get a
"critical mass" of teachers who carried - although I'd still oppose any
absolute requirement.  But we don't have that society today, and we're not
going to create it overnight.  It's a worthy goal for people in all walks
of life.  I just don't see any reason to single out teachers for such a
requirement.  Why not bus drivers, doctors, bank tellers, or even postal
workers?
    And while I'm not accusing you of pettiness, I think some people in the
"gun rights community" who suggest such things may be being petty.
Teachers and their unions/organizations have long been among our most
potent and vocal opponents and in some of the suggestions I've seen to
"force" teachers to carry guns I've detected a vengefulness that I find
inappropriate, unbecoming, and potentially counterproductive.
    I know that you reject force as a tool for social change and I suspect
you'd agree that educating people regarding the benefits of firearms
ownership is far preferable to passing unenforceable, _ex post facto_ laws
and regulations.

>>    The only light I can see coming out of this whole mess is that parents may
>>finally wake up and figure out that the NEA/UEA are creating schools that
>>are so dangerous to everyone, and so ineffective at teaching, that they
>>ought to be just abolished.
>
>Amen.
    Which of course leaves us with the task of designing schools and producing
teachers who can educate and protect our children and help them to grow
into responsible citizens.  Our kids, and unfortunately too many of our
teachers, lack a solid foundation in academics.  Teachers with guns and
Eddie Eagle are only a tiny part of the solution.

Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

GO JAZZ!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS 1/2
Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

****JPFO e-mail Alert!****

Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
Aaron Zelman - Executive Director
2874 So. Wentworth Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53207
Ph. [phone] Fax [phone]
http://www.JPFO.org
[e-mail]

05/21/98
--------

****URGENT!! CROSS POST FAR AND WIDE!!!****

We apologize for the length of this e-mail. However, due to the
extreme severity of the problem we are now facing of more "gun
control", we feel strongly compelled to send this. Consider this
an emergency alert.

Stand by for a media-driven panic. The recent murders committed by
a teenage boy at school in Oregon will stimulate more anti-firearms
rhetoric. There will be calls for more "gun control" and even
outright prohibition of all firearms. Defenders of liberty and the
Bill of Rights must be prepared to change the terms of the debate.

JPFO members and other rights defenders should take the ideas
from this alert and send brief letters to their local newspapers
and legislators and governors. We need to beat the "gun
prohibitionists" to the punch ... if we don't, we can be sure
their lobbyists will be running unobstructed at full power.

Understand.....we are moments away from seeing British & Canadian
style "gun control" shoved down our throats. It always starts with
a crisis. Well, the gun prohibitionists crisis IS here. This is
now the 6th school shooting THIS YEAR ALONE.

We either decide to become involved NOW, or prepare to see draconian
firearms laws, as we have never seen before in this land, this year.


PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS
copyright, Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership

EDITOR'S NOTE: This exclusive interview, copyright by JPFO,
puts to rest the ongoing debate of how to deal with the ever
increasing violence and bloodshed in America's schools, by
showing proven solutions (not just theories) to the problem.
Rest assured the answer is not in more "gun control", as
the gun prohibitionists would want to brainwash America
into believing. In fact, the problem IS gun control.

JPFO: Tell us about your background, and your involvement with
firearms, and the right to keep and bear arms.

SCHILLER: The name is Dr. David Th. Schiller, currently residing
in the little town of Nassau, 70 km northwest of Frankfurt. I work
as editor-in-chief of VISIER, a 168 page strong general interest
gun magazine which I started eleven years ago in Stuttgart and
which has now grown to be the most influential and best selling
gun magazine in all of Europe. Of course with a gun magazine
published in Germany, politics are at the forefront of our
editorial work, and we have an eye toward the past. NRA's Steve
Halbrook has just been over here and I was glad to help him with
his research on Jewish resistance during WWII.

I was born in (West) Berlin in '52 in Germany, moved to Israel in
'72 and served in the Israel Defense Force's Airborne, which means
I am now a veteran of the '73 war, the Lebanese war, and a number
of border raids and actions in the occupied territories. Wounded in
1973 on Suez canal, I later studied political science at West Berlin's
Free University and mastered with a thesis on the origins of the Civil
War in Lebanon and a Ph.D. in '82 with a work on the Palestinians'
"love affair" with terrorism and paramilitary activity. When I
returned to Germany in '74-'75 for studies I was called upon by the
Berlin Police department to consult and teach their SWAT team, which
just came into being after the Munich massacre during the Munich
Olympics. Over the years this extended into a whole series of work
obligations with various police departments in Germany and other
places in the world. Due to my work in the Israel Defense Force
(IDF) as a drill instructor and weapons specialist and through my
academic interest, I had something to teach to these people. I also
worked some years for the terrorism research department of Santa
Monica's RAND Corporation, and have continued my academic pursuits.

Over the years I published a number of books on shooting, police,
terrorism, military history etc., most of these under the pseudonym
of "Jan Boger". You probably might find a photographic journal of
mine in English on the IDF, called "To Live in the Fire...",
published in 1977 by the John Olson Publishing Co. in New Jersey.

As you can see, I experienced violence and gun control from both ends
of the barrel, one might say. And of course, I grew up to be a strong
believer in the personal right to self defense, especially as I spent
my childhood in the Berlin equivalent of the Bronx.

JPFO: What kind of advice could you give the USA to combat the recent
school massacres that seemingly have become quite common upon our soil?

SCHILLER: Now for Jonesboro and the US gun control laws in regard to
schools: Way back in 1973 - '74 I lived in a Kibbutz in Northern
Israel, called Ramat Yochanan. During Passover week in '74 we in
Galilee experienced the first of a number of PLO attacks specifically
targeting schools and children's houses, kindergartens, school buses
and the like. It started with an infiltration in Quiriat Schmoneh on
the Passover weekend, where the perpetrators found the school empty
and locked (of course during the holidays!) and took over a nearby
residential building, shooting people and in the end blowing themselves
up. A few weeks later the worst of this series of incidents took place
in Maalot on May 15th: Three PLO gunmen, after making their way
through the border fence, first shot up a van load full of workers
returning from a tobacco factory (incidentally these people happened
to be Galileean Arabs, not Jews), then they entered the school compound
of Maalot. First they murdered the housekeeper, his wife and one of
their kids, then they took a whole group of nearly 100 kids and their
teachers hostage. These were staying overnight at the school, as they
were on a hiking trip. In the end, the deadline ran out, and the army's
special unit assaulted the building. During the rescue attempt,
the gunmen blew their explosive charges and sprayed the kids with
machine-gun fire. 25 people died, 66 wounded.

After this a controversial debate erupted in Israel in regards to
guns, self defense etc. We heard of course the same dumb arguments
by some good people, you always hear on these occasions like "We do
not live in the Wild West here!" Or: "Guns don't solve problems!"
or similar silly things.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: PROVEN SOLUTIONS TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS 2/2
Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700


JPFO: Were there any gun laws in Israel in those days?

SCHILLER: Now, one has to remember, that Israel still had and has
most of the old and very strict gun laws dating back to the days of
the British Mandatory (1918-1948) on the books, and we in the
promised land have meanwhile grown our share of idiotic bureaucrats
and dumb politicians, too. But with the help of some smart people,
not the least the then Commander-in-Chief, Northern Command Paratroop
General Raful Eytan, all the reservists on the settlements were
issued their personal weapons, and whoever had a clean track record
could get a concealed weapons permit. I for instance had and still
have one.

JPFO: What happened then?

SCHILLER: Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry
guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding
them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip
without armed guards. The Police involved the citizens in a voluntary
civil guard project "Mishmar Esrachi", which even had its own sniper
teams. The Army's Youth Group program, "Gadna", trained 15 - 16 year
old kids in gun safety and guard procedures and the older high school
boys got involved with the Mishmar Esrachi. During one noted incident,
the "Herzliyah Bus massacre" (March '78, hijacking of a bus, 37 dead,
76 wounded), these youngsters were involved in the overall security
measures in which the whole area between North Tel Aviv and the resort
town of Herzlyiah was blocked off, manning roadblocks with the police,
guarding schools, kindergartens etc.

No problems with gun safety there, as most kids in Israel grow up
used to seeing guns on the street (in the hands of army personnel
on leave -- every soldier takes his/her gun home when on leave!).
When the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration
attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased. Too much of
a risk here: Terrorists and other evildoers don't like risks.

But what does all that teach us?

(A) schools/kindergartens make for very attractive targets for the
deranged gunman as well as for the profit-oriented hostage gangsters
or terrorist group, because:

(1) everybody sane will cave in to the demands of the evildoers
(even somebody as hard-nosed as Golda Meir, may she rest in peace,
said during the Maalot incident, that one does not make politics
on the backs of one's children). Nobody wants to play the principles
game when kids are involved. Kidnapping has thus often resulted
in the paying of ransom demands.

(2) if you crave media attention, as for instance the PLO did in
the 70s, nothing will catch the headlines better than an attack
on a school full of kids.

(B) Now THAT is the underlying "reason" behind each and every
incident that involved killing sprees in schools... from Maalot
to Dunblane to Jonesboro. Only recently the French had a
hostage/barricade incident in a kindergarten: the guy wanted money,
and the French authorities solved that problem very neatly with a
stealth-type approach by one of their special teams and a .357
bullet in the head of the perpetrator, when he refused to
surrender. No follow up imitations occurred in France.

JPFO: Were there any similar incidents in Germany?

SCHILLER: Germany has some of the strictest gun laws this side
of Britain and Japan. And needless to say, they are a continuation
of the Nazi Gun Laws, even using the same wording.

Still, we have a multitude of illegal guns on the streets.
Currently the police estimates that there are ten million legal,
licensed guns and 20 million illegal, in a total population of
less than 80 million people! And we had our school massacres, too:
In the early 60s one incident took place in Cologne involving a
deranged man who, not having access to guns, built himself a
flamethrower. In another incident a few years ago in the vicinity
of Frankfurt, another crazy individual shot his way through a
school with two handguns, and later committed suicide.

Also, prior to the Lockerbie plane bombing (which was only one
item in a whole spree of planned and coordinated terror attacks
luckily foiled by the authorities), German security services
detected in September '88, that a Palestinian splinter group had
made plans for a raid on the Jewish kindergarten in Munich. We
found the photos, ground plans etc. Apparently the planning of
the attack was pretty far along.

So you do not have to be a prophet to foresee, that we will see
more school-shooting incidents in the U.S. or other western
nations, where media attention is focused on these things and
where every incident is replayed second by second umpteen times
on the tube, thereby creating in the minds of certain viewers
examples to follow...

Now, can we stop the media from playing out these scenarios in
full color and gruesome details for hours and hours, again and
again? Certainly not. We in the terrorism research field have
argued for decades that it was exactly the media coverage that
spurred more and each time more violent and extreme terrorist
incidents. Could we stop the media from advertising the terrorist
message? Certainly not.

That is apparently one price we have to pay living in a worldwide
infotainment society. The airplane hijackings in the 70s and 80s
are a case in point.

The only thing we can do is protect possible victims...And laws
written in some books will not achieve that. Never have, never will.
...Enough said. I rest my case.

JPFO: How can our readers and members contact you?

SCHILLER: Our e-mail address is: [e-mail]

or my mailing address:

Dr. David Th. Schiller
VISIER, P.O.Box 1363
D-56373, Nassau, Germany

****************************************************************
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO)
Chris W. Stark - Director of Electronic Communications
2874 So. Wentworth Ave.
Milwaukee, WI  53207
Ph. [phone]
Fax [phone]
[e-mail]

Visit our Web Page at: http://www.JPFO.org

STAND UP AND BE COUNTED! IF YOUR NOT A MEMBER OF JPFO, THIS IS NOW
THE TIME TO BECOME A MEMBER.

To become a JPFO member, go to: http://www.jpfo.org/member.htm
There you will see a printable member application, along with
info on membership. If you wish, you can become a member using
our on-line application as well.

MEMBERSHIP IS OPEN TO ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS.

"America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership."
****************************************************************
Copyright (c) 1998, JPFO
Republication permitted provided this article & attribution
is left intact in its original state.
****************************************************************

TO SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to:
[e-mail]
in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Why Our Children Kill So Easily
Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700


From the Vigo-Examiner:

GUEST EDITORIAL

Why Our Children Kill So Easily
by CARL F. WORDEN

During World War II it was discovered that only 15% of all American
soldiers actually fired their small arms directly at the enemy when engaged
in a firelight. The other 85% deliberately fired over the heads of the
enemy or into the dirt in front of them. Only 15% actually indexed their
sights on specific enemy personnel with deliberate precision and pulled the
trigger.

The reason? Whether trained as combat soldiers or not, humans have a
strong, inborn inhibition against killing a fellow human being -- even
when they know that human being is intent upon killing them. Faced with
this unsettling discovery, the military began using desensitization
techniques in combat training, and by the end of the Viet Nam War,
95% of American combat soldiers shot to kill the enemy.

The techniques used to overcome the inhibition to kill involved mental,
rather than physical conditioning. Where soldiers shot at stationary,
bullseye-type targets in WWII, modern soldiers are taught to shoot at
human form targets that instantly pop up and then fall down when the
soldier hits the target. Other techniques used are video enactments
that show human beings engaged in attacking the soldier head on. The
soldier is conditioned to rapidly index and shoot the enemy before
he can get a off shot at him.

Over and over again, these scenarios are played out with chilling
success, finally culminating in a soldier who will kill by pure
conditioning, almost like a machine. These same techniques are now
taught to modern police officers using "shoot -- don't shoot" scenarios
using the same large screens and various videos that present situations
in which the officer must make a split second decision whether to fire
or not -- and at which target.

The lesson to be learned from all this is that by repeated extrinsic
mental conditioning, even the strongest, most innate human inhibitions can
be overcome. Of course, the subconscious mind is still quite cognizant of
the soldier's actions on the battlefield, and this may help to explain why
so many more Viet Nam era veterans suffered such a high rate of Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder and suicide than WWII veterans did. In addition,
this phenomenally successful conditioning to kill was not countered by
resensitization training when Viet Nam veterans were returned to society,
and that may explain why so many Viet Nam veterans returned to commit a
number of heinously violent crimes.

This desensitization to killing is no longer limited to military and
police applications: It is being subliminally taught to society in general,
and to our young in particular, through violent, interactive video games.
It is also being reinforced through repeated viewing of violent television
and movie depictions. Over and over again, society is being inundated with
graphic images of bloody violence and satisfying violent revenge.

Incessantly condition the impressionable adolescent to kill through
grotesquely violent interactive video games, and you have a somewhat
sociopathic youngster who has been conditioned to pull a trigger first
and then consider the emotional consequences later -- just like our
modern, well-trained combat soldiers are trained to do.

The recent spate of school shootings by students are also a manifestation
of this desensitization conditioning. These little murderers are often
quoted as saying they didn't "realize" what they did would really hurt
people. That's not as far-fetched an alibi as it appears on the surface.
These kids have been deluged with movie killings where the same "bad" guys
are killed over and over again. They play interactive video games where
they "kill" the opponent over and over again, and with a few more coins,
they get to kill him again.

Remember, these are often young children, barely over 10 years old,
who have seldom seen a real violent death of another human being.
If it's proven that we can condition adult soldiers to completely
overcome their aversion to kill another human being, how much easier
must it be to condition a child to do the same?

In support of this, consider that guns have been accessible to children
ever since this country was founded, yet children did not begin to bring
these guns to school and use them until -- and get this -- interactive
video technology and superbly mastered special effects in increasingly
more violent movies and other media came into play. Sure, there were
isolated incidents in times past, but nothing to compare to the rash
of school related murders we see happening today.

We don't have more child access to firearms, but we do have children
who have been systematically desensitized to taking a human life,
and reversing that condition represents an undertaking so radical
and invasive that it may well prove impossible to reverse.

http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com
Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner.
You will receive one to three of our top stories or editorials
each day. Send your subscription request, and all other
communication to [e-mail].


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: JUST SAY "NO!" TO GUN TAX
Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700


NRA-ILA FAX ALERT
11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA  22030
Phone: [phone] * Fax: [phone] * [e-mail]

Vol. 5, No. 20
5/22/98

JUST SAY "NO!" TO GUN TAX

For several months, rumors have been circulating as to how the
National Instant Check System (NICS) will be implemented when it goes
on-line this November 30. The NICS is the system that will replace
the Brady Act's original five-day waiting period on the purchase of
handguns from Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders. The Federal
Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has recently announced that there will
be a fee involved for all purchases of firearms from FFL holders,
which they refer to as a "user fee." In simple terms, this would
amount to a tax on your right to keep and bear arms! The original
language of the Brady Act, however, does not call for a fee on this
check. NRA can only assume that the proposals to charge fees -- some
reports put the proposed fees as high as $30.00 -- have been encouraged
by the Clinton/Gore Administration. Additionally, FBI has stated that
they intend to retain firearms transfer information for 18 months.
The current law requires the information be destroyed immediately
once the transaction for the background check has been completed.
In response to these developments, pro-Second Amendment U.S. Rep.
Bob Barr (R-Ga.) has introduced H.R. 3949, which would prohibit any
fee from being charged by FBI in order to run NICS, and require that
firearms transfer information be destroyed within two hours from
receipt of the information. We also anticipate U.S. Senator Ted
Stevens (R-Alaska) will introduce similar legislation in the Senate
very soon. Please call your federal lawmakers immediately at
[phone], and urge your Representative to become a cosponsor of
H.R. 3949, and your Senators to support similar efforts in the Senate.

Currently Representatives Barcia (R-Mich.), Boucher (D-Va.), Graham
(R-S.C.), and Strickland (D-Ohio) have signed on as cosponsors of H.R. 3949.

CSG OPPOSES S. 10

Last week, during the Council of State Governments' (CSG) Spring 1998
National Committee and Task Force Meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, the
Corrections Policy Task Force approved a resolution in opposition to
S. 10, which is Senator Orrin Hatch's Violent and Repeat Juvenile
Offender Act of 1997. The CSG resolution mirrors NRA's serious
concerns regarding several provisions that could affect FFL holders
and the general transfer of firearms.

CLINTON/GORE IMPORT BAN

NRA has heard rumors that BATF is asking firearms distributors who
sell rifles that were affected by the recent import ban on certain
semi-automatics for documentation. The word is that they are looking
for documentation that any affected firearms were acquired from their
suppliers prior to the ban going into effect. We are looking for more
details on this rumor, so if you are a firearms dealer that has been
contacted by BATF about certain imports, please call us at
1-800-392-8683.

A LOOK AT THE STATES

ARIZONA: Good News! Recently, Governor Hull (R) signed House Bill
2041, which establishes right to carry reciprocity with states that
have similar requirements for carry permit issuance. We'll keep you
posted as states are announced!

FLORIDA: Governor Chiles vetoed HB 909, which was right to carry
reciprocity legislation that would have allowed Florida to recognize
out-of-state carry licenses and allowed Florida license holders to
carry for self-protection in certain other states. Members are urged
to support those candidates who support our rights at the polls this
election year -- especially in the race for Governor!

TENNESSEE: Gun owners and sportsmen across Tennessee will no longer
be subjected to a 15-day waiting period on the purchase of handguns.
This solid victory for gun owners became reality on Tuesday, May 19,
when Governor Sundquist (R) signed House Bill 2410. As of November
1, 1998, gun owners will be able to walk into a gun store, fill out
the usual paperwork, wait just seconds for the clerk to check your
background, and then walk out with their new purchase. This will be
done through an instant check system operated by the Tennessee Bureau
of Investigation. Also, prior to the passage of HB 2410, the law
required both dealers and individuals to get a certificate of good
moral character signed by the chief of police or sheriff of their
county and submit it to the Commissioner of Revenue for a permit to
engage in the selling of any firearms, including the sale of
personal firearms to friends and neighbors. The NRA was successful
in having both of these onerous sections deleted. Additionally,
House Bill 2410 eliminated the requirement of reporting secondary
sales of firearms to local authorities. Thanks to the hard work of
fellow gun owners, many friends in the State Legislature, and the
assistance of NRA-ILA, a giant leap has been achieved in restoring
the rights of law-abiding gun owners in Tennessee. House Bill 2410,
was sponsored by Representatives Frank Buck (D-40), H.E. Bittle
(R-14), Chris Newton (R-22), Tre' Hargett (R-97), John Tidwell
(D-74), Doug Jackson (D-69) and Senator David Fowler (R-11). In
addition, an NRA logo license plate has been approved for the state.
There's a catch, though: 500 people must apply for a plate through
the Department of Motor Vehicles prior to July 1, 1999, before the
state will issue the plates. Otherwise, the state will cancel the
special plates. Most importantly, the profits from these sales will
be placed in a special fund of the wildlife resources agency for gun
safety programs.

This information is provided as a service of the National Rifle
Association Institute for Legislative Action, Fairfax, VA.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Gun Confiscation Story Updated
Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

The AP will send out the same story several times as more
data is gathered. The version I sent out yesterday was
one of the earlier versions. This one was available from
the Boston Globe website, but I had assumed they were the
same story.

Here's the updated version for anyone who's interested:

15-year-old charged, father's guns seized after teacher threatened

Associated Press, 05/26/98 18:47

LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. (AP) - Skittish after a wave of school
shootings, police arrested a 15-year-old boy and seized more than 20 of
his father's guns after the boy showed a teacher a drawing of someone
being shot, authorities said Tuesday.

The Pinelands Regional High School freshman, whose name wasn't being
released, was charged with making terroristic threats against the
35-year-old teacher Friday.

Fearful that the boy had access to them, police seized the weapons and
more than 100 rounds of ammunition as a precaution. Two AK-47s were
among them, an unidentified police source told The Press of Atlantic
City, but police Detective Robert Knapp denied that Tuesday.

The father, a hunting safety instructor for the state Division of Fish,
Game and Wildlife, had the appropriate ownership documents for the
weapons and was not charged, police said. He cooperated with police,
according to Officer Jeffrey Wilson.

Mayor John Adair defended the police reaction Tuesday, saying it was
pro-active instead of reactive, and appropriate in light of last week's
school shootings in Springfield, Ore., and other recent school attacks.

``It perhaps could have prevented a more serious crime from occurring,''
he said.

Neither the boy's name nor the teacher's name was released.

The teacher told police the boy showed her ``a handwritten drawing of
a person being killed at gunpoint,'' and asked her what she thought of
it, according to police reports.

The drawing depicted a male victim in the crosshairs of a rifle scope
saying ``Help.'' Another figure in the drawing said ``You're dead.''
The boy had had behavior problems in school and ``past incidents of
aggressive behavior,'' Knapp told The Press of Atlantic City.

He was charged because the teacher took the drawing as a threat,
Wilson said.

In addition, the boy had written a fairy tale in his English class
that included a graphic murder, said Tish Steward, a math teacher at
the school who is president of the Pinelands Teachers' Association.

Classmates described the boy as an avid hunter who sometimes wore
camouflage to school and often talked about guns.

``He was always talking about them. He wants to be in the Army,''
said Erica Smith, 14, a fellow freshman.

But students said they never heard him threaten anyone or talk about
killing people.

``He just talked about hunting a lot,'' said Buddy Branscomb, 14,
another freshman.

The school is located in a rural area of southern New Jersey known as
the Pine Barrens, where hunting and fishing are popular pursuits.

``Around here, everyone has a shotgun. It's scary,'' said Marko Ritter,
17, a junior at the school.

After the arrest, police obtained a search warrant from Superior Court
Judge Frank Buczynski Jr. for the boy's home and found the guns. They
were  confiscated to prevent the boy from having access to them and were
still being held Tuesday, police said.

``In a case where someone has made terroristic threats,'' police may
remove weapons or restrict access to them until a judge decides it is
safe to return them, according to Gregory Sakowicz, executive assistant
prosecutor for Ocean County.

``It happens in domestic violence cases all the time,'' Sakowicz said.
``It's an access issue.''

The boy, who was released to his parents, was arraigned Tuesday before
Family Court Judge Barbara Villano in Toms River. He was not suspended
from school, police said.

School officials did not return telephone calls about the case Tuesday.

The Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/wirehtml/146/15_year_old_charged__father_s_guns

--
Nation In Distress
http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Extreme Gun Control
Date: 28 May 1998 07:00:00 -0700


From composite of sources. - Scott

Is this where we're headed? - Ed Wolfe

26 HELD AFTER WATER PISTOLS BATTLE
25 May 1998 19:52

Twenty-six people were arrested during the Bank Holiday weekend's
annual Run to the Sun rally, attended by thousands of Volkswagen
Beetle and camper van enthusiasts in Newquay, Cornwall, police said
today.

The arrests were mostly for offences of drunkenness and disorder.

Once again a major feature of the event was the running water
pistol battle in the streets by those taking part in the rally.
This year more than 100 water pistols were confiscated, said police.

⌐ 1998 Press Association

--
Nation In Distress
http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/

As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of
our society by those who refuse to see the consequences
of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to
accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions.
--

This is the only link I could find, but it's one of those where you
have to register to get in. The article was taken from Sky News, so
you may find a link to that somewhere.

(I swear I am not making this up, Britain really is this stupid these days)

http://www.lineone.net/freesite/l1login.cgi

Goldie the Yob
Leicester
England
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/mark.goode/
ICQ# 4691481
Shoe size: 9



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Extreme Gun Control -Forwarded
Date: 28 May 1998 08:58:14 -0700

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From composite of sources. - Scott

Is this where we're headed? - Ed Wolfe

26 HELD AFTER WATER PISTOLS BATTLE
25 May 1998 19:52

Twenty-six people were arrested during the Bank Holiday weekend's
annual Run to the Sun rally, attended by thousands of Volkswagen
Beetle and camper van enthusiasts in Newquay, Cornwall, police said
today.

The arrests were mostly for offences of drunkenness and disorder.

Once again a major feature of the event was the running water
pistol battle in the streets by those taking part in the rally.
This year more than 100 water pistols were confiscated, said police.

# 1998 Press Association

--
Nation In Distress
http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/

As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of
our society by those who refuse to see the consequences
of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to
accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions.
--

This is the only link I could find, but it's one of those where you
have to register to get in. The article was taken from Sky News, so
you may find a link to that somewhere.

(I swear I am not making this up, Britain really is this stupid these days)

http://www.lineone.net/freesite/l1login.cgi

Goldie the Yob
Leicester
England
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/mark.goode/
ICQ# 4691481
Shoe size: 9



-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  [Fwd: Dr Laura's monologue on the Oregon Shootings]
Date: 28 May 1998 09:31:25 -0700

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--
Steve Silver
Proud Member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy & Vice President,
The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc.
18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 * [phone]
For a complimentary copy of the LSAS's newsletter, "The Liberty
Pole," e-mail your snail-mail address to: [e-mail]
The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) non-profit corporation
              * * *
Self defense is not a crime.
Firearms: They save lives.


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Dr Laura's monologue on the Oregon Shootings
Dr. Laura Schlessinger
5/21/98


I have something I think is very important to say. This seems kind of stupid
because, frankly, every time I open my mouth I'm trying to be important. But I
think you better listen up. It's one of those situations where when you look
at a unique event, one raindrop falling from the heavens, you go, "It's a unique
experience."

If you stand back and see that there are 40 million scrillion raindrops falling
from the heavens with a big wind behind them, you have a whole different
perspective. When you stand back and look at the whole of it, you see you're
in a hurricane and the top of your house just went. So perspective is
everything. So sometimes when you just look at each event, define it and put
it away, you can feel very safe, but you're not. You better stand back and see
that it's one raindrop in a hurricane.

On my way to work today, I heard about the student in the public high school in
Oregon, killed his parents and his sister, somebody else at school, and a score
or two of other children are seriously hurt. If you look at each one of these
events, kids doing drive-by shootings. Just take one event in the newspaper on
one day, you go, "Bad kid." Shooting each other in schools. Isolated event.
Bad kid. Kids committing suicide at rates unknown in modern times.

Well, listening to bad music. Kids having babies at 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 and
15 and 16,
and killing them, or wrapping them up in a towel and burying them in the earth,
or flushing them down a
toilet. It's an isolated event.

The kids on drugs and alcohol at levels I never heard of when I was a kid. If
somebody sneaked a beer, and it wasn't me because I couldn't even stand the
smell. But if somebody sneaked a beer, that was a big deal. And if you
listen to this program at all, you can tell that there are very few parents out
there who feel any sense of authority with their children. The children rule.

So if you stand back and look at all of these things, not as an isolated
raindrop, you see an apocalypse. And I am really dead serious about this, and
it would seem lately, more and more, dead is the operative term. I perceive this
as the ultimate in backlash and revenge of the children brought up by a
generation who invented a whole new way of life.

New and improved way of life. And these are the improvements. Commitment is
temporary. We've redefined it. There are even books out called A Good
Divorce. We've got people shacking up, making babies, moving on, making
babies, moving on, not seeing their kids, moving away. Judges saying, "Not
a problem. You want to move your kids away from their dad? Honey babe, you
deserve to be happy. Screw the kid." Got women living with guys they're not
married to who are molesting their children, at much higher rates than marital
situations by far. We have daycare. That's new and improved. Women have
the right to abandon their children, and their children will be happy about it
as long as the mommies are happy. Whose moronic idea is that?

Abortion is commonplace. You get pregnant, you don't want it, you suck it into
a sink. No problem. It's
not a person. You don't think all this mentality gives a complete irreverence
for life? How do children
feel important when they're not? Whether you stay married. Whether you are
married. It's all
unimportant. The children don't matter. It's your happiness. So we have
chaos in the home. We have, therefore, chaos in society. My children are not
safe from your children any more.

These are not isolated raindrops. And the best, the best new and improved idea
in our society is to remove God as an issue in the family, so that all holidays
we now have magazines and news articles extolling the virtues of interfaith-less
marriages, where we eat a little matzo and paint a few eggs and call it a
holiday. It is so cute! It's adorable! See how tolerant we are? But you
better keep God out of the holiday. But as long as we have a little matzo and
a little eggs that we can paint, we think we've brought God to our kids and our
lives. We've more and more become unwilling to study, to pray, to observe
because, you know why? It's time consuming and annoying and it's not really
necessary
anyway. The most important thing is my fulfillment.

Damn backwards! Damn backwards! So generation provided this chaos, lack of
home, lack of parents, lack of family, lack of stability, lack of reverence for
life, lack of God, and we have a big hurricane. Now I was on Meet the Press and
something else when other kids killed in other schools and I don't think anybody
heard me clearly. Maybe I said it too tactfully, so I'm going to be a little
less tactful now.

This is a lab experiment that failed! We've created international Lord of the
Flies. Kids have no respect for life. They know they're not important.
They don't see any purpose. They don't see any security. They don't
ultimately see any love because we have no time and no interest in anything but
acquisition. That's what's important.

Character, fidelity, stability, the preciousness of life, God - these are not
relevant as long as the
economy is okay. Isn't that indicative of "we don't care"? I am not the
slightest bit surprised, although I am beyond myself in grief for the parents
who are losing children this way. I mean I can't imagine the pain of sending
your kid to school and having this happen. Even having the threat of it. But
our kids are going to continue to do drive-bys, to blow away mass murder in
school, to kill themselves, to make babies, kill them and abandon them and abuse
them, be on drugs, be on alcohol and scare the crap out of you and everybody
else and each other because we taught them that they don't matter and nothing
else does. This is the revenge for our new order. You still want to argue with
me? How foolish can you be?

-



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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: Are we surprised? NOT! -Forwarded
Date: 28 May 1998 11:15:43 -0700

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Bruce Stanton <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Could also mean that gunowners are getting smarter.  If some stranger
>called me on the phone and asked me if I had any guns, I'd tell him
>I don't know what he is talking about.
>
>It's best to keep quiet.  What is legal today may be illegal tomorrow.
>In spite of form 4473, a lot of people still have guns that the feds
>don't know anything about.
>
>> >Poll: Most Americans favor stricter gun laws
>> >     WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
>> [snip]
>> > The poll also said the percentage of gun owners has dropped in the last
>> >25 years. In 1973, 48 percent of of adults had guns in their homes compared
>> >to 32 percent today, down from 40 percent two years ago.
>>
>> Hmmm......If less homes have firearms, and we have more regulation than
>> before, then there would seem to be a correlation between more gun laws
>> and less homes with firearms.

I've had some training in statistics and know a bit about sampling methods,
random populations, and related issues.  I know that a random sample of a
certain size can be considered a 'statistically valid' representation of
a larger, or much larger, population, and have studied the arguments which
are used to support the notion.  However, it is a characteristic of random
populations that they clump, and, modern demographic databases being what
they are, it would be child's play to design a 'statistically valid' sampling
of a random population the size of our country which could produce virtually
any desired result.

It is common to read of polls in which the database is something like
1000 to 2000 persons, and the results are extrapolated to the 350 million
or so inhabitants of the nation.  In order to reach valid conclusions
regarding the results of the poll it is necessary to know the sampling
distribution at least, and I have never seen it given.  Pick your 1-2000
persons from YuppieGhettos or perhaps the faculty of the University of
California at Berkeley (Think of it!), and you can get one sort of result.
Pick them from rural communities in the south or west, and you'll get
another.

I think that Bruce may have a good point about gun owners choosing not
to reveal what they have in the house, because that bit about rates of
gun ownership dropping flies in the face of everything else I have seen
and heard on the subject for the last 10 years.  For example, I had a
friend (passed on now) who owned a gunshop in the area, and a bunch of
us used to go hang out there on Monday evenings.  When Bill Clinton was
elected President I noticed that the tempo of his sales increased, and
the 'regulars hadn't changed their habits.  After a few years had passed,
I asked him if my perception was valid.  He replied that it was, and that
the last few years had been boom years for him.  He had been in the
business for 40 years or more, and the year immediately previous had been
the best ever.  He told me that "Bill Clinton is the best gun salesman
[he'd] ever seen."

I personally think of it as my civic duty to lie to pollsters.

Gun ownership has *skyrocketed* in this country in the last 10 years.  Those
pollsters are engaged in wishful thinking at best, or are baldfaced liars
at worst.

The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other-
wise noted.  No-one else should be held responsible for what I think.

| D. N. Dickey               |  Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and |
| Research Associate         |  timidity, are no match for armed and       |
| Northern Illinois Univ.    |  resolute wickedness.                       |
| [e-mail]    |                       - W. S. Churchill     |
| **Finger for public key**  |                                             |


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From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Fratrum: The Looting of America (fwd) -Forwarded
Date: 28 May 1998 11:25:49 -0700

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On May 27, Eugene W. Gross wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]

The Looting of America

 How over 200 Civil Asset Forfeiture laws enable police to confiscate your
home, bank accounts & business without trial.

by Jarret Wollstein

`A police dog scratched at your luggage, so we're confiscating your life
savings and you'll never get it back.' In
1989, police stopped 49-year-old Ethel Hylton at Houston's Hobby Airport
and told her she was under arrest because a
drug dog had scratched at her luggage. Agents searched her bags and
strip-searched her, but they found no drugs. They did find $39,110 in cash,
money she had received from an insurance settlement and her life savings;
accumulated through over 20 years of work as a hotel housekeeper and
hospital janitor. Ethel Hylton completely documented where she got the
money and was never charged with a crime. But the police kept her money
anyway. Nearly four years later, she is still trying to get her money back.

Ethel Hylton is just one of a large and growing list of Americans -- now
numbering in the hundreds of thousands -- who
have been victimized by civil asset forfeiture. Under civil asset
forfeiture, everything you own can be legally taken away
even if you are never indicted, tried or convicted of a crime.

Suspicion of offenses which, if proven in court, might result in a $200
fine or probation, are being used to justify seizure of
tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of property. Totally
innocent Americans are losing their cars, homes
and businesses, based on the claims of anonymous informants that illegal
transactions took place on their property. Once property is seized, it is
virtually impossible to get it back.

Property is now being seized in every state and from every class of
Americans. Seizures include pocket money confiscated from public housing
residents in Florida; cars taken away from men suspected of soliciting
prostitutes in Oregon; and homes taken away from ordinary, middle class
Americans whose teenage children are accused of selling a few joints of
marijuana. No person and no property is immune from seizure. You could be
the next victim. Here are some examples:

--     In Washington, D.C. police stop black men on the streets in poor
areas of the city, and "routinely confiscate small
amounts of cash and jewelry". Most confiscated property is not even
recorded by police departments. "Resident Ben
Davis calls it `robbery with a badge'."[USA Today, 5/18/92]

--     In Iowa, "a woman accused of shoplifting a $25 sweater had her
$18,000 car -- specially equipped for her
handicapped daughter -- seized as the `getaway vehicle'." [USA Today,
5/18/92]

--     In December 1988, Detroit drug police raided a grocery store, but
failed to find any drugs. After drug dogs reacted
to three $1.00 bills in the cash register, the police seized $4,384 from
cash registers and the store safe. According to
the Pittsburgh Press, over 92% of all cash in circulation in the U.S. now
shows some drug residue.

--     In April 1992, Dr. Joseph Disbrow was accused of practicing
psychiatry without a license. His crime was providing
counselling services from a spare bedroom in his mother's house in
Monmouth, New Jersey. Counselling does not
require a license in New Jersey. That didn't stop police from seizing
virtually everything of value from his mother's
home, totalling over $60,000. The forfeiture squad confiscated furniture,
carpets, paintings, and even personal
photographs.

--     Kathy and Mark Schrama were arrested just before Christmas 1990 at
their home in New Jersey. Kathy was
charged with taking $500 worth of UPS packages from neighbors' porches.
Mark was charged with receiving stolen
goods. If found guilty, they might have paid a small fine and received
probation. The day after their arrest, their house,
cars and furniture were seized. Based upon mere accusation, $150,000 in
property was confiscated, without trial or
indictment. Police even took their clothing, eyeglasses, and Christmas
presents for their 10-year-old son.

The incentive for government agencies to expand forfeiture is enormous.
Agencies can easily seize property and they usually keep what they take.
According to the Pittsburgh Press, 80% of seizure victims are never even
charged with a crime. Law enforcement agencies often keep the best seized
cars, watches and TVs for their "departments", and sell the rest.

How extensive are seizures in America today? In April 1990, The Washington
Post reported that the U.S. Marshals
Service alone had an inventory of over $1.4 billion in seized assets,
including over 30,000 cars, boats, homes and
businesses. Federal and state agencies seizing property now include the
FBI, the DEA, the U.S. Marshals Service, the
Coast Guard, the IRS, local police, highway patrol, the Department of
Housing and Urban Development, FDA, and the
Bureau of Land Management. Asset forfeiture is th industry. Seizures have
increased from $27 million in 1986, to over $644 million in 1991. In 1992,
seizures may exceed $1 billion.

Civil asset forfeiture defines a new standard of justice in America; or
more precisely, a new standard of injustice. Under civil seizure, property,
not an individual is charged with an offense. Even if you are a totally
innocent owner, the government can still confiscate your "guilty" property.

If government agents seize your property under civil asset forfeiture, you
can forget about being innocent until proven guilty, due process of law,
the right to an attorney, or even the right to trial. All of those rights
only exist if you are charged with a criminal offense; that is, with an
offense which could result in your imprisonment. If you (or your property)
are accused of a civil offense (offenses which could not result in your
imprisonment), the Supreme Count has ruled that you have no presumption of
innocence, no right to an attorney, and no protection from double jeopardy.

Seizure occurs when government takes away your property. Forfeiture is when
legal title is permanently transferred to the
state. To get seized property returned, you have to fight the full
resources of your state or the federal government;
sometimes both! You have to prove your property's "innocence" by
documenting how you earned every cent used to pay
for it. You have to prove that neither you nor any of your family members
ever committed an illegal act involving the
property.

To get a trial, you have to post a non-refundable "bond" of 10% of the
value of your property. You have to pay attorney
fees -- ranging from $5,000 to over $100,000 -- out of your own pocket.
Money you pay your attorney is also subject to
seizure (either before or after the trial) if the government alleges that
those funds were "tainted". And you may be forced to
go through trial after trial, because under civil seizure the
Constitutional protection against "double jeopardy" doesn't apply.

Once property is seized, expect to spend years fighting government agencies
and expect to be impoverished by legal fees -- with no guarantee of winning
-- while the government keeps your car, home and bank account.

As bad as current asset forfeiture laws are, far worse is just ahead.
Hundreds of expanded asset forfeiture bills are pending before Congress and
state legislatures. The 1991 Omnibus Crime Bill (passed by Congress, but
vetoed by President Bush for being "too soft" on crime), increases from six
months to six-and-one-half years the time officials have to return
"improperly seized" property to its rightful owners.

The 1992 Omnibus Crime Bill extends civil asset forfeiture to political
dissent. Under this Bill, if "violence" occurs during a
political activity, the assets of the sponsoring organization are subject
to forfeiture. If a fist fight broke out during a union
picket, all of the union's assets could be seized. Even before this Bill
has passed, cars belonging to Operation Rescue
demonstrators are being confiscated.

Civil asset forfeiture is the beginning of the end of justice in America.
Current and pending laws give government agencies the legal right to loot
at will. The threat of asset forfeiture can be used to intimidate
businesses, silence dissent, and destroy families.

Some people are fighting back. A New Jersey-based group, Forfeiture
Endangers American Rights (FEAR), is lobbying
Congress and creating a national network of forfeiture defense attorneys.
The Drug Policy Foundation and the Criminal
Justice Policy Foundation (both based in Washington, D.C.) are fighting
existing and proposed asset forfeiture laws. These groups need your help to
succeed.

The fight against civil asset forfeiture is a battle against tyranny in
America. If forfeiture squads continue to expand, liberty
and justice in America will become a fading memory. We must stop government
looters and restore the rule of law now.
Tomorrow will be too late.

Jarret B. Wollstein is a director of ISIL and the author of 300 published
articles.

                            GROUPS FIGHTING ASSET FORFEITURE

Criminal Justice Policy Foundation, 2000 L Street, NW, Suite 702,
Washington, DC 20036 [phone]. $90 per
year.

Drug Policy Foundation, 4801 Massachusetts Avenue, NW, Suite 400,
Washington, DC 20016 [phone]. $35
per year.

Families Against Mandatory Minimums, 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Suite
200 South, Washington, DC 20004.
[phone]. $35 per year.

FEAR (Forfeiture Endangers American Rights), P.O. Box 5424, Somerset, NJ
08875 Tel: [phone]. $55 per
year.


                       RECOMMENDED READING

                       The Closing Door by Dan Rosenthal
......................... $30.00
                       Presumed Guilty by Schneider/Flaherty
..................... $6.00
                       Spectre of Forfeiture by Judy Osburn
...................... $14.95


For these and other books and tapes write: Freedom's Forum Books, 1800
Market Street, San Francisco, California
94102. Add $2.50 P & H for 1st book and $1.00 for each additional item.


Attractive two-color hard copies of this pamphlet are available for 5 cents
each (minimum order $1.00). Price includes
shipping.

This pamphlet is produced as a public service by the International Society
for Individual Liberty. If you would like to receive
free literature about ISIL's activities around the world, and receive a
sample copy of the FREEDOM NETWORK
NEWS newsletter and book catalog, please write:

                     INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY
                         1800 Market Street, San Francisco, California 94102
                              Tel: [phone] Fax: [phone]

[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]

--
           *****       Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!        *****
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_  | Insured  | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |         --   Max Plank   | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom  |   DIAL   | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side!  | 1911-A1. | word.   --   The Bible   | sword.--Jesus Christ
----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Hidden bias in statisticians
Date: 28 May 1998 11:43:58 -0600


I found this in my old emails and thought you might find it
interesting.  I'm sure it applies in every area, not just guns/crime
research.

----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----

Hi guys;

In response to the Pearson/ Spearman debate going on around here, I decided
to do a little experiment.

I took the data set from Killias's study, and made a copy.  For the copy, I
re-labelled the "% of households with a firearm" to "% of households with a
TV set."  I changed the names of countries to names of American states. I
plotted both sets of data, but I changed the axis orientation, and the
units, so that it was not obvious at first glance that the numbers were
identical. I increased the least significant digit of all data by one unit,
so that the numbers were not clearly identical when looking at a chart.
"Total" and "with gun" was changed to "Daytime" and "Nightime."

I then presented these two data sets to a professor of statistics at a
major university.  His name will remain confidential, for reasons to soon
become clear.

What was interesting is that this professor had very different feelings
about which method was preferrable ( Spearman or Pearson ), and what
constituted an outlier, and what predictive value the model had, *DEPENDING
ON WHAT HE THOUGHT HE WAS MEASURING*.

When he thought he was looking at TV data, he rejected both the "US" data
and the "Northern Ireland" data as being outliers. We then calculated rho
values, using Pearson.  I asked him about Spearman, and he said that
Spearman would be misleading here.  Spearman, he said, tends to ignore
outliers, and while it was a useful tool when the data set is noisy,
Spearman is so powerful and robust at finding correlation that it can find
one where there is no actual correlation. His conclusion was that TV
prevalence was not correlated with homicide at any hour, and had no strong
affect on suicide during the day, but that for some reason, TV seemed to
increase the incidence of suicide at night. He offerred a theory about TV
keeping people up at an hour when fewer people are around, and thus there
was no one around to interfere with any suicidal tendencies.  He suggested
that TV makes it more likely that a suicide will be attempted at night,
when it is more likely to be successful.

I asked him about the "US" outlier.  He said that the point was clearly off
the linear curve.  I pointed out that the relationship between TV and
homicide might not be linear, it might be, for example, Quadratic.  He said
that if the relationship is not linear, then there are an infinte number of
curves that could be drawn through those points, and that the data set was
not strong enough to decide between them.  So, if the relationship is not
linear, then there is no telling what it might be, and so the data has no
predictive value as to what might happen if we reduced the prevalence of TV
in a particular state.

When I switched to the "Gun data", his story changed.  He wanted to include
the U.S data, but he didn't like the Northern Ireland data very much.  We
cranked out the Pearson rho, and he frowned.  He then switched to Spearman,
and got numbers he liked better.  When I asked him why, he hemmed and
hawed, and said that Spearman can be better for social research because all
social research numbers are noisy. When I asked about the US data as an
outlier, he said that the US data was not so far off as to be excluded. He
said that the relationship between guns and homicide was probably not
linear, and that the US point may represent the upward curve of a Quadratic
function.

At this point, he went back to the TV numbers, looked them over, cleared
his throat, and asked me if they were the same data.  I admitted they were.
 He looked back and forth at the data, looked at me, became very
uncomfortable, and told me that he was expecting a grad student in for an
appointment soon, and that I had better go.

This same professor once told me that statistics can easily reveal far more
about the statistician than they do about the data being examined. And that
it is *VERY* easy for a statistician to tell him/herself lies, without ever
realizing it. It would seem that, when debating various statistical
methods, it would be useful to remember the human factor of the
statistician.  It is very easy for statistics to be like Pooh and Piglet
finding their own tracks. If I had not presented this professor with two
such blatantly similar data sets, I don't know that he would have ever
noticed that he was using a double standard.

We perform double blind tests on test subjects, to check for biases, all
the time, but we seldom perfrom double blind tests on the statistician to
check him/her for biases.

It has gotten to the point, in all research concerning firearms, that I
don't have to actually read a study in order to figure out its conclusions.
 All I have to know is who wrote it.  Everyone seems to find exactly what
they expect to find. Some of Kleck's research is questionable, but
Killias's, and Kellermans's is even more so.  Everywhere I find people,
even statistics professors, accepting logic on the topic of firearms that
they would not accept on any other topic.


Killias's data

                  Homicide          Suicide     % Households
                All    Gun       All       Gun   with guns
Australia     19.5     6.6      115.8      34.2    19.6
Belgium       18.5     8.7      231.5      24.5    16.6
Canada        26.0     8.4      139.4      44.4    29.1
England/Wales  6.7     0.8       86.1       3.8     4.7
Finland       29.6     7.4      253.5      54.3    23.2
France        12.5     5.5      223.0      49.3    22.6
Holland       11.8     2.7      117.2       2.8     1.9
N. Ireland    46.6    35.4       82.7      11.8     8.4
Norway        12.1     3.6      142.7      38.7    32.0
Scotland      16.3     1.1      105.1       6.9     4.7
Spain         13.7     3.8       64.5       4.5    13.1
Switzerland   11.7     4.6      244.5      57.4    27.2
U.S.A         75.9    44.6      124.0      72.8    48.0
West Germany  12.1     2.0      203.7      13.8     8.9

My "doctored" data


                  Homicide          Suicide       % Households w/
             6AM-6PM  6PM-6AM   6AM-6PM  6PM-6AM   multiple TV's
Alaska         6.8     0.9       86.2       3.9     4.8
Arizona       46.7    35.5       82.8      11.9     8.5
Colorado      18.6     8.8      231.6      24.6    16.7
Florida       12.2     2.1      203.8      13.9     8.0
Kansas        26.1     8.5      139.5      44.5    29.2
Maine         29.7     7.5      253.6      54.4    23.3
Michigan      16.4     1.2      105.2       6.0     4.8
Montana       19.6     6.7      115.0      34.4    19.8
N. Carolina   12.2     3.7      142.8      38.8    32.1
Nevada        11.8     4.7      244.6      57.6    27.3
New York      75.0    44.7      124.1      72.9    48.1
Oregon        11.9     2.8      117.3       2.9     1.0
Rhode Island  13.8     3.9       64.6       4.6    13.2
Tennesee      12.6     5.6      223.1      49.4    22.7

Of course, the exact numbers don't matter.  The idea is to create a data set
which is fundamentally the same, but which is not easily identifiable as
identical.  I just took Killias's data, changed names of couintries to name of
states, changed with total and with gun to daytime and nightime, and switched
from guns to multiple TV's.

Also key is the presentation.  If you ask the question too forcefully, or in a
challenging way, you'll put the person on their guard.





*************************************************

In some ways, the emphasis on statistics is predictable.  When a topic is
subject to such intense emotion, it can be tempting to reduce the topic to
numbers, in the hopes of getting some handle on it.  But, this may be like
the proverbial joke about losing one's keys in the alley, but looking for
them in the living room because the light is better there.

All of this statistical analysis is very interesting, but it focuses on
those things which are easy to count. Which in turn means that it focuses
on crime.  However, gun control is not just about crime, it is also about
politics.  Pim does some interesting manipulations of data.  Maybe they are
valid, maybe they are not.  But while he places a statistical magnifying
glass on deaths resulting from the citizen ownership of firearms, he
resorts to intuition when it comes to predicting how oppressive a
government will become if it is unopposed by armed citizens.  He says that
a people should be able to trust their government.  Perhaps, they should,
but they should also be able to trust their neighbor.  Based on Pim's data,
it appears that we *can't* trust our neighbor.  How, then, does one
conclude that one can trust the government?  Suddenly the discussion
switches from hard ( if controversial )anaylsis of statistic methods, to
cloud-shaped drawings, statements about what it means to be civilized, and
accusations of paranoia.

It may very well be that individual citizens malfunction in a different way
than government does.  Citizens kill 30,000 people a year.  Governments can
go for decades without killing anyone, and then kill 6-10 million over the
course of 4 years.  If a citizen homicide rate of 30,000 per year continued
unabated for 200 years, it would only just match the low estimate of the
Jews killed in the Holocaust.  Since the citizen murder rate is less
variable, it is more adaptable to statistical analysis.  But, what kind of
statistics could get a handle on the irregular fashion in which governments
malfunction?  Is the Holocaust an outlier, or is it on the normal curve for
government behavior?  How many times would one have to have a Holocaust
before one decided that it wasn't an outlier? How many hundreds and
thousands of years of data would you need in order to weight the "social
cost" of gun ownership, or gun controls?

Crime statistics are interesting, and useful, but they are the easy part of
the gun control discussion.  The other, more important part, is power
politics.  Statistics won't help us much here.

************************************************************************
Brian Delaney              [e-mail]
farallon != Me
Any Society Which Requires Disclaimers Has Too Many Goddamn Lawyers
************************************************************************
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA    [e-mail]
Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion
"If we let this leak, it'll just kill him"  Clinton about Vince Foster




--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Disperse you Rebels - Damn you, throw down your Arms and disperse." --
 Maj. John Pitcairn, Lexington, Massachusetts, April 19, 1775


----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Disperse you Rebels - Damn you, throw down your Arms and disperse." --
 Maj. John Pitcairn, Lexington, Massachusetts, April 19, 1775

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  NRA Election Results -Forwarded
Date: 28 May 1998 13:42:21 -0700

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    ([206.97.102.4])
    by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 13:34:44 -0600
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X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

   From the VA-RKBA list. I have been unable to verify

Dennis Baron
                  --------------------------------------------------------

Just in case you haven't seen it - here are the election results that I
found on the web.

Mack Elliott

Elected for a three-year term ending in 2001:

Mr Michael P Baker                           Ms Sue King
Ms M Carol Bambury                        Mr Michael Lee
Rep  Bob Barr                                   Mr John Milius
Rep Bill Brewster                               Mr Jim Nicholson
Mr David G. Coy                              Mr Oliver North
Sen Larry Craig                                 Mr Ted Nugent
Mr William Dailey                              Mr Lance Olson
Ms Sandra Froman                            Mr James Porter
Ms Marion P Hammer                       Mr Harold Schroeder
Mr Charlton Heston                           Mr Dwight Van Horn
Ms Susan Howard                             Rep Harold Volkmer
Mr Brian A Johnson                           Rep Don Young
Mr David C Jones

Elected for a one-year term ending in 1999:

Mr Alfred Ockenfels

Not elected:

Mr Sanford Abrams                         Mr Michael Kindberg
Mr Jerry Allen                                  Mr Jeffery Knox
Mr F E Bachhuber                            Mr John Krull
Mr Michael Beko                              Mr Clarence Lovell
Mr Ray Cahen                                   Mr John Millay
Mr James Church                               Mr Robley Moore
Mr Allen Dapp                                   Mr Larry Rankin
Mr William Dominguez                       Mr Albert Ross
Mr Howard Fezell                              Mr Al Rubega
Mr Dan Fiora                                    Mr Frank Sawberger
Mr Richard Gardiner                         Mr Thomas Seefeldt
Mr Arnold Gaunt                               Mr Robin Sharpless
Mr Fred Griisser                                Mr Bill Steg'Kemper
Mr Wesley Grogan                            Mr Bill Steigers
Mr David Gross                                 Mr Kim Stolfer
Mr John Guest                                   Mr John Thompson
Mr Fred Gustafson                              Mr John Trentes
Mr Don Henry                                    Mr Franklin Volk
Mr William Hunt                                 Mr Glen Voorhees
Mr Phillip Journey



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Handgun control at it in California -Forwarded
Date: 28 May 1998 16:56:11 -0700

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

---------- Forwarded message ----------


[BARF BAG ALERT!]
Source:  US Newswire

Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to Calif. Candidates
U.S. Newswire
27 May 17:43

 Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to California Gubernatorial Candidates
 To: City Desk, Political Writer
 Contact: Luis Tolley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-441-3722
          or 310-998-9960 (pager)

   WASHINGTON, May 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following letter was sent to
each of the major California gubernatorial candidates today to challenge
them to support a 5-point program of gun control for California.  For more
information contact Luis Tolley, western regional director for Handgun
Control Inc. at 310-441-3722 or 310-998-9960 (pager).
    ------
   May 27, 1998

   Dear Lt. Gov. Davis, Rep. Harman, Mr. Checchi and Attorney General Lungren:

   As the California primary approaches, the electorate continues to be
concerned about one of the most important issues facing the state -- the
issue of gun violence and its impact on our children and our
communities.

   Despite the decline in crime rates in major cities like Los Angeles and
San Francisco, the specter of gun violence and gun accidents continues to
haunt California.  The recent school shooting in an idyllic Oregon
community demonstrates that children's access to guns can create a tragedy
at any time, in any place.  And, despite the overwhelming support of most
Californians for additional, common-sense restrictions on access and use of
firearms, the well-financed gun lobby continues to wield power in the
California legislature.

   Therefore, this letter issues you a challenge.  Several measures have
been brought before the legislature in the last two sessions in an attempt
to bring gun violence under control.  Some are still pending, some are yet
to be introduced as legislation.  Taken together, these measures would
provide an enormous additional margin of safety for Californians.  We are
asking that you publicly commit you support to the following five measures,
and that you pledge to do everything in your power to ensure their passage
should you be
elected governor.

   1. Saturday Night Specials.  We ask that you pledge your support and
your signature to S.B. 1500, which is currently before the legislature.
This measure would establish quality and safety standards for handguns --
currently the nation's only unregulated consumer product -- and prohibit
the manufacture of unsafe, easily
concealed Saturday Night Specials which are so attractive to juvenile gang
members.  Because so many of these guns are manufactured in southern
California, passing this bill would increase the safety of every American,
even those who live outside California.

   2. Child Safety Locks.  A.B. 1124, which was vetoed by Gov. Wilson last
year, would have required gun dealers to equip every firearm they sell with
a child-safety lock to prevent children from shooting themselves or other
kids.  As you know, several local jurisdictions have passed this type of
bill, but it only takes one disturbed child and one unlocked firearm to
repeat the tragedies of Springfield and Jonesboro.

   3. Semiautomatic Assault Weapons.  AB 23, which is currently before the
legislature, would prohibit the sale of all semiautomatic assault weapons,
including the "copycat" versions of presently banned guns that are marketed
by manufacturers to Californians and which were used against children in
the infamous Stockton schoolyard massacre.

   4. Rapid-Fire Ammunition Magazines. S.B. 1339, which is currently before
the legislature, would prohibit the manufacture or sale of large,
rapid-fire ammunition magazines which hold more than 19 rounds, like that
used in the Springfield shooting. No state, including California, permits
hunting animals with more than 10 rounds; why are we permitting humans to
be the targets of these killing machines?

   5. Gun Manufacturer Responsibility. Offer incentives for gun
manufacturers to develop and sell "personalized guns" which could only be
used by the authorized owners. Also encourage manufacturers to add magazine
disconnect safeties, which would ensure that children are not injured by a
"hidden" bullet in the gun chamber, and load indicators, which would show
how many bullets are in a weapon, to all new products. California led the
nation in insisting on cleaner automobiles; you now have a chance to
demonstrate the same leadership in protecting children from guns.

   Again, these five measures, taken together, will challenge you as
governor to do everything possible to protect more Californians from an
early death, or a life in a wheelchair like mine. We are providing copies
of this challenge to the media to publicize both our challenge and your
response, and look forward very much to hearing from you at our Western
Regional Office, 310-441-3722.

   Sincerely,
   /s/
   James S. Brady
   ------
   Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest
citizen's gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI
works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does
not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000
members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact
and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCL and its
affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be
found on the HCI Web site at: http://www.handguncontrol.org.

 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/
 05/27 17:43

Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire
======================================================================
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only.
======================================================================


Source:  US Newswire

State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence
U.S. Newswire
28 May 16:26

 State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence
 To: State Desk
 Contact: Luis Telley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-998-9960

   LOS ANGELES, May 28 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Al Checchi, Rep. Jane Harman and
Lt. Gov. Gray Davis today accepted a challenge from James Brady of Handgun
Control Inc. and pledged support for comprehensive measures to protect
children and our communities from gun violence. But Attorney General Dan
Lungren did not respond to Brady's challenge.

   "Preventable gun violence claims too many of our kids," said Brady, who
was shot during the assassination attempt on President Reagan. "We applaud
Rep. Harman, Lt. Gov. Davis and Mr. Checchi for agreeing to protect
children and our communities from gun violence and we wish Attorney General
Lungren would show an equal commitment to stop gun violence. No child
should end up in an early grave or in a wheelchair like mine because of gun
violence that could have been prevented with responsible gun laws.

   "These are common sense measures to prevent gun violence," said Brady.
"Why would anyone not favor trying to prevent children from shooting
themselves or other kids by requiring child safety locks on guns and
restricting semiautomatic assault weapons and Saturday night specials?"

   The five measures in Brady's challenge include:

   -- Banning unsafe, easily concealed Saturday night specials;

   -- Requiring child-safety locks to be sold with every gun;

   -- Strengthening the ban on semiautomatic assault weapons;

   -- Restricting rapid-fire ammunition magazines;

   -- Encouraging gun manufacturers to incorporate safety features on
handguns.

   Last year, Gov. Wilson vetoed bills to ban Saturday night specials and
require child-safety locks. Legislation to strengthen the ban on assault
weapons, restrict rapid-fire ammunition magazines and encourage gun
manufacturers to incorporate safety features on handguns are now pending in
the legislature.

   ------
   Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest
citizens' gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI
works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does
not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000
members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact
and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its
affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be
found on the website at http://www.handguncontrol.org.

 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/
 05/28 16:26

Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire
======================================================================
NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and
educational purposes only.
======================================================================






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Under the Gun         1/2
Date: 28 May 1998 19:46:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Federal Document
Clearing House, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials
contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to ABC News.
This transcript may not be copied, resold or redistributed in any media.

Under the Gun

Gun Use in US Inner Cities and Suburbs
May 26, 1998

(This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.)

TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS(VO) October--Pearl, Mississippi, three dead.
December--West Paducah, Kentucky, three dead. March--Jonesboro, Arkansas,
five dead. April--Edinboro, Pennsylvania, one dead. May--Springfield,
Oregon, four dead. Small towns in America are learning what many in the
inner cities have known for some time--kids plus guns spell disaster.
But is it that simple? Some surprising answers from the inner city.

JIM ROBINSON They talk about going to do something about guns.
It is not guns. It's the condition of the neighborhoods.

TED KOPPEL (VO) Meanwhile, those in the gun industry feel equally
misunderstood.

STEVE SANETTI, FIREARMS MANUFACTURER Get out of the city. Get out into
where the rest of America is, where the people at this show come from,
and you will see that firearms are used well over 99 percent of the time
for legitimate purposes.

TED KOPPEL (VO) Tonight, one nation, two worlds living under the gun.

ANNOUNCER From ABC News, this is Nightline. Reporting from Washington,
Ted Koppel.

TED KOPPEL What may be the most difficult aspect of dealing with the
subject of guns in America is the fact that we tend to listen only to those
who share our point of view to begin with. In fact, as soon as most of us
begin reading a newspaper column or watching a television piece on a
gun-related story, we know, or at least we think we know immediately just
where that person is coming from. A lot of you will do that tonight
anyway, but if you'll pardon the expression, hold your fire. Just for the
record, there are clearly a lot of yahoos on both sides of this issue. But
it's important enough, if only because so many people are dying and getting
hurt, that it deserves a suspension of judgment. There may actually be some
common ground that we can all agree on and one such area has to do with the
question of perspective. Our friend, David Turecamo, who spends several
months at a time both videotaping and reporting his own stories, David has
been examining this story from a couple of vantage points and we'll be
looking at his work both tonight and tomorrow.

It may be stating the obvious, but guns play a totally different role in
the life of a hunter or a sportsman from that of a person living in, say,
a drug-infested neighborhood of Philadelphia. Go to any gun show in the
country and you'll hear just that, which doesn't mean it isn't true. But
neither is it the entire story.

DAVID TURECAMO, REPORTER If you want to understand one part of the gun
culture in this country, start here, Las Vegas, at the annual SHOT Show,
that's short for Shooting, Hunting and Outdoor Trade Show.

1ST GUN SHOW PARTICIPANT This is the largest collection of capitalists
in the shooting sports industry. This really is a combination trade show,
hootenanny, alumni reunion.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's a $30 billion industry that's more than just guns
and ammo. It's outfits and accessories and gadgets, 'cause guns to these
people are not only a way of life, they're a state of mind.

JOHN RISDALL, MAGNUM RESEARCH When they look in the front of that barrel,
that's it, there isn't any doubt about what's going on there and nobody's
confused in the room about who is who and what's what at that point in time
and you solve a lot of social arguments instantly by just looking at one of
these. I mean you want to be the city in America that has no guns in any of
the houses in the city?

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Marva Gaskins probably would. She understands another
part of the gun culture because she lived it, here, in North Philadelphia,
in a neighborhood they call the badlands. (interviewing) They came up onto
the porch?

MARVA GASKINS Yeah, came up here. Want to see? Watch?

DAVID TURECAMO They shot into the house?

MARVA GASKINS Yeah, see.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) In Philadelphia, the rate of gun murders has been going
up steadily while the national average has gone down. (interviewing) That
is a gunshot?

MARVA GASKINS Yes.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Valerie Wall's daughter was shot to death on her front
steps.

VALERIE WALL It's kind of hard, you know, having your child for 22 years,
talking to her earlier that day and not being able to see her no more,
you know? It's hard for me to come outside and sit on my step because if
I look down, you know, I'm looking at my child laying down there.
[ Continued In Next Message... ]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Under the Gun         2/2
Date: 28 May 1998 19:46:00 -0700


[ ...Continued From Previous Message ]
DAVID TURECAMO (VO) More than 300 people were killed by handguns in
Philadelphia last year, most between the ages of 15 and 25.

1ST PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT I mean, you're not like solving nothing if you've
got a gun and another person got a gun and they just want to like show it
off. That's really all it is about around here, it's like showing off.

2ND PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT Recently up here at Broad and Erie a cop was
sitting in his car writing out a report. A young guy went on a rampage
shooting up the neighborhood up there and, you know, he shot the cop's
tires out. So otherwise, see, they don't have, they don't even fear the cops.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's not just the hundreds that are killed every year,
there were five in just one weekend last March, but it's the uncounted
victims, the ones who are injured and maimed for life or left widowed and
orphaned.

NURSE I'd like to introduce you to Kadysha.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was in the emergency room at Children's Hospital
that I met a child named Kadysha. At 16 years old, she'd been shot in the
stomach by her boyfriend.

KADEHSA I got shot on January 27th. I lost all my short intestines. I start
school next week for like a half a day. I don't really want to go because I
don't know how people are going to think of me, how people going to look at
me and stuff. I can't hold much in my stomach. I can't drink a lot of
fluid. Like regular people drink or eat, I can't. I think I came a long way
and I feel much better. But I wish I could be back like I was.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) But this town's got a mayor who just won't give up.

MAYOR ED RENDELL If I was in a boat and it was sinking and all I had was a
little bucket I'd be, and it was an ocean liner, I'd be bailing out with
that little bucket until the water came over my eyebrows.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Ed Rendell decided he'd had enough and he was going to
do something about it. Now, this is a guy who everybody agrees brought the
city back from the brink of financial collapse. If he could fix the city's
money problems, he was ready to take on something even bigger.

1ST WTXF-TV REPORTER The mayor is putting together the elements for a
federal lawsuit against gun makers.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was last July when the local Fox station broke the
story.

2ND WTXF-TV REPORTER Now sources say the mayor is planning something
dramatic to deal with gun violence and is setting his sights on a big
target--the gun manufacturers.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Several major lawsuits against the gun industry have
already failed. But Rendell's would follow the pattern of the tobacco case,
claiming the industry has created a public nuisance by producing millions
of weapons which they know are going into the hands of criminals. David
Kairys drafted the complaint.

DAVID KAIRYS It's a question of whether they are responsible in damages for
the direct harm, the harm they know they do to the cities, and that can
start with the 911 call or cleaning blood from the streets and it could
extend to the extent of hospital costs or taking care of an orphaned child.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So Ed Rendell planned to sue the gun manufacturers in
the city where the second amendment, which guarantees citizens the right to
bear arms, the city in which that guarantee was written. But by January,
six months after the story broke, they were still deliberating.

MAYOR ED RENDELL Right now only, no one has tapped me on the shoulder and
said we'll join you and we'll absorb part of the costs. And I would have
to spend to litigate this case millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money
here in Philadelphia and I want to make sure that at least we have a chance.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So this is really a story about two Americas. One is
urban, where guns are about survival. One is suburban, where guns are about
sport. One is white, the other is black. What I'd like to show you is the
journey I've taken through both and it all begins on the streets where kids
wear T-shirts in memory of the dead. (interviewing) Who was Kevin?

3RD PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT My dad.

(Commercial Break)

JIM ROBINSON Now, see this corner right here? Somebody gets shot here at
night, at this corner right here. All they be doing there is shooting every
night. It's one of the biggest drug corners there was. You can get anything
you want back here. This here is shooters' alley.

DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Jim Robertson and Patrick Peters are crisis counselors
with an organization called the Philadelphia Anti-Drug/Anti-Violence
Network. More to the point, they grew up on these streets and gave me a
tour of their city.

1ST MALE ON THE STREET A .357 is the best handgun you can have out here,
man. It's a big boy, it's a revolver and you gotta go for that hard s___
[message ended here]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Forward -Forwarded
Date: 29 May 1998 11:27:49 -0700

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Bang Says:  These antis ain't too bright.  Read the press release below,
then make sure you call the referenced woman and order the FREE
speakers' kit.  Just tell them you are a doctor or a preacher or
something that makes you sound like a typical pablum slurper.  Bang
thinks it's a good idea for us to take advantage of some of the Joyce
Foundation's money?  Don't you???  Also, make sure you send a note to
the e-mail address that is also listed.  If they're gonna be stupid
enough to advertize, we may as well give'em what they ask for!!!!!!


Firearm Injury Prevention Speakers Kit Available
5/19/98

For Immediate Release:
May 19, 1998

Contact Information:
Lori Lovett
American Academy of Pediatrics
141 Northwest Point Boulevard
Elk Grove Village, Illinois 60007
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Injury and death from firearms have become a public health problem for
the nation's children. As part of its response, the American Academy of
Pediatrics has prepared a speaker's kit, titled "Preventing Firearm
Injury: Protecting Children."

The kit is for pediatricians and other health care providers interested
in presenting firearms injury prevention information to the public or to
colleagues. It was developed with funds from the Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation, the Joyce Foundation, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur
Foundation and the AAP Friends of Children Corporate Fund.

The kit includes slides, a narrative, tips for organizing presentations,
tips for dealing with challenging issues or opinions, a suggested
reading list and more.

The kit is free of charge and can be obtained by calling Lori Lovett at
800-433-9016, ext. 6779 or by e-mail at [e-mail].

Source: Join Together Online


--
"...I don't believe gun owners have rights." (Sarah Brady, Chairman,
Handgun Control, Incorporated, from the Hearst Newspapers Special
Report, "Handguns in America" October 1997)





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded
Date: 29 May 1998 14:56:47 -0600


On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:

>    The schools have failed utterly in providing teachers who are even
>proficient in English at a low high school level, much less any "esoteric"
>knowledge, such as math, science, history, or arts.  That needs to be the
>first goal.  If public school teachers were as proficient with firearms as
>they are at writing sentences in English, I'd be terrified to live near a
>school, much less send my child to one!  While it may be theoretically
>possible to train teachers to use firearms, I seriously doubt that it's
>actually possible, at least in our current society.

Actually, my first goal is to provide real choice to parents in where
and how their children are educated.  I was merely stating that there
is no fundamental violation of civil rights to require firearm
proficiency as part of a job.


>    Secondly, requiring proficiency in teaching skills and knowledge is a
>reasonable requirement that violates no one's civil liberties.  However, I
>can find no definition of teacher that includes the duties of armed guard.
>It is, of course, possible to change the definition and requirements for
>teachers, but such a change can't be done abruptly.

Of course it can.  Whether or not it would be prudent to do so is
another story.  My boss can change my job description at will--or even
eliminate my job altogether.  I am free to work elsewhere if I don't
like my employer's conditions of employement.  With the exception that
certain forms of discrimination are not allowed when the employer is
"we the people" via our elected government, nothing else changes.


>    Also, as self-defense advocates we must be careful to be consistent.
>Many people here have raised the issue of bans on knives being an
>infringement of the religious rights of Sikhs, who are required to carry a
>specific type of knife.  If we are going to insist that the rights of Sikhs
>be respected, should we not be equally vigilant to defend the rights of
>Quakers and Buddhists whose religious beliefs generally preclude carrying
>firearms?

I would not suggest anyone be required to carry a gun nor to enter
into nor remain in any employment that required them to do so.  But to
set job requirments to which some might object on religous grounds is
not a violation of civil liberties.  Those people should simply not
choose that line of work.

>If someone is a good teacher, I can see no reason to prevent him
>from teaching whether he's a Sikh who wishes to carry a knife to school or
>a Quaker who refuses to carry a firearm.   And what do we do about teachers
>who have physical handicaps that prevent them from handling a firearm
>safely?

I agree completely.  But your arguments are pragmatic, not
constitutional in nature.  I'm not saying we should require all
teachers to carry guns.  I'm saying we could require them do so if we
wanted.

>Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that
>requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even if she's
>successfully treated?

No one should lose their RKBA except while actually incarcerated or
hospitalized.  If someone has not been rehabilited enough to be
trusted with a gun, we should have imposed a longer sentence because
the fact is once they are on the street, if they want a gun, they can
get one.

>    I don't like _ex post facto_ laws applied to gun owners and they're not
>any better when applied to teachers.

Agreed.  Eliminate all ex-post-facto laws.

>    I don't know of any rational reason for refusing to learn CPR for kids,

How about an irrational fear contact with bodily fluids?  As a
physician you know full well just how irrational that fear
is--especially with a little training and some basic equipment at
hand.  90% of those who would object to carrying a gun would do so
over a similar irrational fear, I suspect.

>And for some teachers, particularly those who
>work with emotionally disturbed, or "at-risk" youth, carrying a firearm and
>having all the students _know_ you carry it, could present a very real
>danger of students ganging up on a teacher to get the gun.

A very thoughtful argument.  Once again a pragmatic one rather than a
constitutional one.

>    I agree.  We'd lose too many good teachers by requiring it.  But I have no
>problem with encouraging teachers to carry, and/or rewarding those who do.
>(I suspect we're in far more agreement on this issue than it might appear...)

Agreed.

>absolute requirement.  But we don't have that society today, and we're not
>going to create it overnight.  It's a worthy goal for people in all walks
>of life.  I just don't see any reason to single out teachers for such a
>requirement.  Why not bus drivers, doctors, bank tellers, or even postal
>workers?

Actually, bus drivers would another great area to encourage CCW at
least so long as busses are run by the government.  Any government
employee who is generally entrusted with the safety of the public and
is in a position to be a target for attack could, IMO, logically be
required to CCW as part of their job.  As a pragmatic matter I would
not be in favor of requiring it.  I would, however, never prohibit
them from doing so and might even favor openly encouraging them.

>    And while I'm not accusing you of pettiness, I think some people in the
>"gun rights community" who suggest such things may be being petty.
>Teachers and their unions/organizations have long been among our most
>potent and vocal opponents and in some of the suggestions I've seen to
>"force" teachers to carry guns I've detected a vengefulness that I find
>inappropriate, unbecoming, and potentially counterproductive.

Not at all.  I don't want to punish anyone.  I'm thinking entirely of
the safety of school children and how to improve that.  Private
schools who can set their own rules for both teachers and students
would be the best thing.  Allowing or encouraging teachers to become
proficient in security and defense (armed as well as unarmed) is
another.

>    I know that you reject force as a tool for social change and I suspect
>you'd agree that educating people regarding the benefits of firearms
>ownership is far preferable to passing unenforceable, _ex post facto_ laws
>and regulations.

I agree completely.  But I do not view a change in job descriptions as
ex-post-facto laws.  When horse drawn wagons gave way to modern
trucks, fire-fighters had to learn to drive those trucks.  Tpying
teachers have had to learn to teach "keyboarding" on computers.
Teachers now have to operate video players rather than film
projectors.  School secretaries, counselors, and teachers alike have
had to overcome fears and learn to use computers as a daily part of
their routine.  No one screamed ex-post-facto when the 60 year old
teacher was required to begin submitting his grade reports via
computer rather than the old paper forms.

Once again, I agree with you on the pragmatic level.  I simply maintain
there would be no violation of rihgts to change job descriptions.
--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
 falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
 government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Police and gun safety
Date: 29 May 1998 15:57:49 -0600

>Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:12:57 -0700
>From: Howard Last <[e-mail]>
>Organization: Howard Last, P.E.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U)
>Subject: Police and gun safety
>
>One way to increase gun safety is to take them away from the chiefs of
police and=20
>police commissioners. I doubt if most of them know which end of the gun
the bullet=20
>comes out of.
>
>Howard Last
>[home page]
>[Image]
>
>  Top News             Wis. Police Chief Kept Gun in Oven
>
>  Sports               MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The police chief forgot he
>                       had a gun in the oven. Then he decided to roast
>  Lotteries            some turkey.
>
>  International        ``Shortly thereafter -- BOOM!'' police spokeswoman
>                       Jeana Kerr said Wednesday.
>  National
>                       The outcome for amateur chef and fulltime Chief
>  Washington           Richard Williams was a voluntary one-day, unpaid
>                       suspension for violating his department's firearms
>  Business             policy.
>
>  Wall Street          Williams said the oven is one of the odd hiding
>                       places at home where he puts his service revolver
>  Entertainment        to reduce the risk of a burglar taking it.
>
>  Health/Science       On Sunday, he forgot he placed it in the oven the
>                       day before.
>  Regional
>                       After putting some turkey in the oven to roast at
>                       350 degrees, he laid down while waiting for it to
>                       cook.
>
>                       That's when the gun went off, firing a round
>                       through the gas stove and into a hallway banister.
>
>                       Williams and his Rottweiler, Chauncey, were home
>                       alone. Neither was injured.
>
>                       ``I spent the next five or six hours thinking about
>                       all the things that could've happened,'' Williams
>                       said.
>
>                       After the holiday weekend, he sent Mayor Sue Bauman
>                       a computer e-mail suggesting for the one-day
>                       suspension for violating the firearms safety
>                       policy, which demands officers be careful with
>                       their weapons.
>
>                       =03AP-NY-05-27-98 2227EDT
>
>                       Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
>                       This material may not be published, broadcast,
>                       rewritten, or redistributed.
>
>                                        Home | Top of Page
>
>05/27
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Salt Lake Tribune -- Opinion
Date: 29 May 1998 19:08:11 -0600

http://www.sltrib.com/05291998/opinion/opinion.htm

>                                                               Friday, May
>                                                                29, 1998
>
> Olympic Gun Ban Is No-Brainer
>     At his monthly news conference Wednesday, Gov. Mike
> Leavitt said that his public safety director, Craig
> Dearden, had spoken ``persuasively'' last week about
> banning firearms from the 2002 Winter Olympics in Utah.
> Persuasively? The wonder is that there is any persuasion
> necessary.                                                 ]
>     The prohibition of firearms from Olympic venues,
> whether the person has a concealed-weapons permit or not,
> is a no-brainer. Dearden made the case for such a ban to a
> legislative interim committee last week, and even the        Today's
> Legislature's most vocal gun-rights advocate, Sen. Michael   Headlines:
> Waddoups, seemed to agree.
>     The dilemma is whether the state's
> concealed-weapon-permit law, enacted in 1995 and subject to  Reacting to
> much deserved criticism ever since, makes it clear that      Pakistan Tests
> guns should be banned at the 2002 Winter Games venues. Sen.
> Waddoups opined that the current law, which bans weapons in
> ``secure'' areas, is sufficient, since Olympic venues, with
> their airport-style metal detectors, would qualify as
> secure areas.
>     That's one interpretation. But there has been so much
> confusion over Utah's liberalized law that, as Dearden
> argued, it makes sense for the Legislature to clarify that
> Olympic venues are defined as ``secure facilities'' before
> 2002 arrives and some overzealous permit holder seeks to
> take a weapon into the opening ceremonies.
>     There must not be any doubt among the 20,000 or so
> concealed-weapon permit holders in Utah that they cannot
> attend an Olympic event with a firearm in tow. Any incident
> at a Games checkpoint involving a firearm would prompt
> legitimate security concerns, not to mention the resultant
> embarrassment that it would bring to Utahns and their gun
> culture.
>     Utahns attending the Games ought to be aware of the
> security level at each venue. Nobody gets in without
> waiting in line to proceed through a metal detector.
> Obviously, anybody selfish enough to try to bring a
> concealed weapon into a venue is going to be detained,
> which would cause delays in moving spectators through the
> checkpoint and, at more popular venues, could create a
> crowd-control problem.
>     While Sen. Waddoups seems to understand that there is
> no place for firearms at an Olympic venue, his notion that
> Olympic security officers should provide a place for permit
> holders to check their guns at the door is absurd. What
> else is the Olympics supposed to provide, pet care for
> spectators who want to check their dogs at the door? Utah
> permit holders planning to attend the Olympics should just
> do the obvious: leave their guns at home.
>     Of course, what seems obvious to most Utahns -- that
> concealed weapons should not be allowed in schools or
> churches or the state hospital -- is evidently not obvious
> to gun-rights advocates. That's why Dearden spoke
> ``persuasively'' when he made the case for clarifying
> Utah's concealed-weapons law to make sure everyone knows
> that guns and the Olympics don't mix.
>
>
> ) Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune
> All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt
> Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may
> be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from
> The Salt Lake Tribune.


It IS a no-brainer, and the Tribune, as usual, is brain dead.

A "secure facility" must be _completely_ sealed with metal detectors at
each entrance.  This is possible at an indoor venue, but certainly not at
an outdoor one - at least not without huge expenditures of manpower and funds.

A "secure facility" MUST provide safe storage for those who are legally
carrying weapons, and accept liability for such storage.

And perhaps most interesting, a "secure facility" by definition is
someplace not open to the general public.  That would seem to exclude the
Olympics.

Sarah

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Guns and Sin
Date: 29 May 1998 22:00:53 -0600


  WEEKEND JOURNAL
  ---
  Taste -- Review & Outlook:
  Guns and Sin

The Wall Street Journal via Dow Jones

  One of the most amazing quirks of the human psyche is the ability of our
most
intelligent and well-meaning citizens to believe preposterous things -- that
the
earth's crust is running out of hydrocarbons, for example, or that you can
pass
a law taking money out of politics. Among the most durable of these heady
notions is that violence is caused by guns.

  The notion is of course running especially strong just now, given the new
fad
among disturbed teens of shooting up your school. As best we can count, 19
people have been killed in school shootings at Bethel, Alaska (February 1997),
Pearl, Miss. (October 1997), West Paducah, Ky. (December 1997), Jonesboro,
Ark.
(March 24), Edinboro, Pa. (April 24), Pomono, Calif. (April 28), Fayetteville,
Tenn. (May 19), and most recently Springfield, Ore. (May 21). No one can doubt
that something ghastly is afoot, not only in urban slums but across the
American
heartland.

  These social epidemics are not easy to account for. Urban riots erupted in
the
"long hot summers" of the 1960s, for example, but then went away without any
dramatic improvements in the condition of ghettos or the end of the "two
societies" alleged by the high-minded Kerner Commission. In the school
shootings, common-sense remedies are no doubt appropriate -- an especially
watchful eye on troubled students, for example, or holding adults responsible
for the security of guns they own. But it would be mistaken to expect any
miracle cure, except perhaps the ancient wisdom, "this too shall pass away."

  The silver bullet of gun control was deflected somewhat by the comments of
Robert Ryker, father of the Jacob Ryker, the 17-year-old wrestler who was
wounded in the Oregon attack but managed to tackle and subdue the 15-year-old
gunman. "He heard a click, and he knew the rifle was out of ammo," the father
said, "and he knew it was time to get the gun away." Mr. Ryker, a navy diver
and
member of the National Rifle Association, added, "I don't know about this hero
business. All the boys did what they had to do to survive. They all did the
right thing. When they had a chance to jump in, they did."

  The actions of Jacob Ryker and the comments of his father remind us that the
heartland culture where guns are common also has powerful strengths.
Independence, a sense of duty, courage and the like are found everywhere, of
course, but are particularly strong in places open enough for shooting and
hunting to flourish. This is something for sophisticates to ponder.

  Then too, even if it were possible to eradicate guns, this would not remove
violence. Hong Kong, for example, is an enclave proud of its British heritage
of
tight gun laws. The weapon of choice in domestic violence is the chopper, or
oversized oriental meat cleaver. So you read -- in two stories from last year
--
of a trial suspended because jury members are unable to face crime-scene
photos,
or a schizophrenic hacking off his mother's head, throwing it from a
fourth-floor balcony, and returning to the kitchen to wash the chopper as
police
arrive.

  As it happens, indeed, another society is just now experiencing a wave of
school violence. In February, Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto expressed
"grave
concern" after the Japanese cabinet met to consider a series of knife attacks
by
teenagers, including the death of a teacher and a five-year-old girl. The
"butterfly" knife, in which the blade snaps out from a double handle, was
featured last year in a TV series by pop star and actor Takuya Kimura; it
showed
macho characters stabbing a table between spread fingers. The knife
manufacturer's association felt it necessary to issue a statement saying, "It
would be too simplistic to try to transform a debate on educational problems
into a discussion of knives."

  In this media-drenched age, there may be something to the idea that
dangerous
fads are spread by TV dramas or door-to-door news coverage of tragedies. But
more profoundly, what we should learn, or remember, is that human nature has
the
capacity for both good and evil. Indeed, the tendency among sophisticates to
blame inanimate objects such as knives or guns is a kind of defense mechanism
against the principle of personal responsibility. The heartland culture
represented by Jacob and Robert Ryker, by contrast, better understands the
reality that theologians describe as Original Sin.

 WSJviaNewsEDGE
:PAGE: W9
:SUBJECT: INDD WSJ USA

Copyright (c) 1998 Dow Jones and Company, Inc.
Received by NewsEDGE/LAN: 5/29/98 2:06 AM



----End Forwarded Message(s)----



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Prosecutor Appeals Horiuchi Dismissal
Date: 29 May 1998 22:58:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

(Since we're quick to voice our outrage at blundering and treachorous
politicians, we ought to voice our support to Denise Woodbury for trying
to get a small measure of justice. -E.W.)

BONNERS FERRY, Idaho (AP) -- A prosecutor (sic, should be 'prosecutrix')
said Thursday he (sic) is appealing the dismissal of an involuntary
manslaughter charge against the FBI sharpshooter who killed the wife
of white separatist Randy Weaver.

U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge dismissed state charges against Lon
Horiuchi on May 14.

He ruled that Horiuchi was acting within the scope of his federal
authority and was honestly discharging his duties when he fired the
shot that killed Vicki Weaver on Aug. 22, 1992, during the siege at
Ruby Ridge.

Lodge cited a constitutional clause that immunizes federal authorities
from liability when acting within the scope of their jobs.

Randy Weaver was acquitted of all charges in connection with the
11-day siege of his mountaintop cabin that also claimed the lives
of his 14-year-old son and Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan.

Weaver urged Boundary County Prosecutor Denise Woodbury to seek
reinstatement of the state charge.

Woodbury accused Horiuchi of negligently firing the shot that killed
Mrs. Weaver as she stood inside the cabin holding her infant daughter
Elisheba on the second day of the standoff.

Lodge said evidence indicated Horiuchi did not see Mrs. Weaver behind
the door or in the doorway of the cabin when he fired at Weaver's
friend Kevin Harris, who was ducking into the cabin.

Harris was also cleared of all charges in connection with the standoff.

The Justice Department decided in 1994 against prosecuting Horiuchi
or any of his FBI superiors and reaffirmed the decision last year.

A $10 million lawsuit filed by Harris against the federal government
is pending. Weaver filed a similar lawsuit, which last year resulted
in a $3.1 million settlement.

AP-NY-05-28-98 2015EDT

--
Nation In Distress
http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/

As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of
our society by those who refuse to see the consequences
of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to
accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Get an early start on summer vacation!
Date: 30 May 1998 08:08:00 -0700


On Fri, 29 May 1998 Charles Hardy <[e-mail]> replied to
Dr. Sarah Thompson:

>>Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that
>>requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even
>>if she's successfully treated?

>No one should lose their RKBA except while actually incarcerated or
>hospitalized.  If someone has not been rehabilited enough to be
>trusted with a gun, we should have imposed a longer sentence because
>the fact is once they are on the street, if they want a gun, they can
>get one.

Then I take it you disagree with the NRA's politically correct and
federally implemented position that a person who has a record of felony
conviction, or a psychiatric commitment, should be forever anathema and
defenseless in the world because she has supposedly forfeited her
"civil" rights? It does seem irresponsible to me to put someone out on
the street but forbid him to defend himself, or even have means to hunt
for meat. Of course the ex post facto "domestic violence" misdemeanor
gun ban edicts to which you implicitly refer merely exacerbate this
infringement on the unalienable right to life.



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From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NRA Election Results
Date: 30 May 1998 14:10:59 -0600

Thanks to David Sagers for posting these results of the NRA elections.  I
checked with Arnold Gaunt, one of the unsuccessful candidates, and he has
confirmed that these results are accurate.

Not Relevant Anymore is now more appropriate than ever.

Sarah


Elected for a three-year term ending in 2001:

Mr Michael P Baker                           Ms Sue King
Ms M Carol Bambury                        Mr Michael Lee
Rep  Bob Barr                                   Mr John Milius
Rep Bill Brewster                               Mr Jim Nicholson
Mr David G. Coy                              Mr Oliver North
Sen Larry Craig                                 Mr Ted Nugent
Mr William Dailey                              Mr Lance Olson
Ms Sandra Froman                            Mr James Porter
Ms Marion P Hammer                       Mr Harold Schroeder
Mr Charlton Heston                           Mr Dwight Van Horn
Ms Susan Howard                             Rep Harold Volkmer
Mr Brian A Johnson                           Rep Don Young
Mr David C Jones

Elected for a one-year term ending in 1999:

Mr Alfred Ockenfels

Not elected:

Mr Sanford Abrams                         Mr Michael Kindberg
Mr Jerry Allen                                  Mr Jeffery Knox
Mr F E Bachhuber                            Mr John Krull
Mr Michael Beko                              Mr Clarence Lovell
Mr Ray Cahen                                   Mr John Millay
Mr James Church                               Mr Robley Moore
Mr Allen Dapp                                   Mr Larry Rankin
Mr William Dominguez                       Mr Albert Ross
Mr Howard Fezell                              Mr Al Rubega
Mr Dan Fiora                                    Mr Frank Sawberger
Mr Richard Gardiner                         Mr Thomas Seefeldt
Mr Arnold Gaunt                               Mr Robin Sharpless
Mr Fred Griisser                                Mr Bill Steg'Kemper
Mr Wesley Grogan                            Mr Bill Steigers
Mr David Gross                                 Mr Kim Stolfer
Mr John Guest                                   Mr John Thompson
Mr Fred Gustafson                              Mr John Trentes
Mr Don Henry                                    Mr Franklin Volk
Mr William Hunt                                 Mr Glen Voorhees
Mr Phillip Journey



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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: NJ Gun Seizure Update - 5-29-98
Date: 30 May 1998 18:42:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Parents insist son poses no threat to teacher, students

Published in the Asbury Park Press 5/29/98
By AMY HUGHES and ARPIE NAKASHIAN
MANAHAWKIN BUREAU

LITTLE EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP -- The 15-year-old boy charged with
threatening his English teacher is under court order not to go outside
without parental supervision, his parents said yesterday.

"One of his friends called to talk to him yesterday and it was like
somebody handed him a million dollars," said Denise Krawiec, the boy's
mother. "He is isolated."

The parents of Robert J. "R.J" Krawiec, the Pinelands Regional High
School freshman who police say handed his English teacher a drawing of
a person seen through the cross hairs of a rifle scope, said yesterday
that their son is not a threat to his classmates or teachers.

Authorities and the parents said the teacher was not depicted in the
drawing.

"This thing has been blown way out of proportion by what is going on in
the rest of the country," said Robert J. Krawiec Sr. "For a rural center
like this one, he ("RJ") is a normal boy pursuing normal interests like
hunting, fishing and sports."

Police charged the freshman with making terroristic threats and have
said the boy has behavioral problems at school.

Authorities said the seizure of his parents' 20 firearms and hundreds
of rounds of ammunition from their home on Lake Saint Claire Drive was a
precaution. The parents object to the seizure and the action against
their son.

"Other kids get 10-day suspensions and they are allowed to go back to
school," said Mrs. Krawiec, referring to juveniles here and in Stafford
Township who have returned to school after bringing live bullets to class.
"But R.J. draws a picture and he is made out to look like Charles Manson."

The English teacher, Sheila Sledden, informed guidance counselors
about the drawing shown to her last Friday and contacted the police on
her own, said Paul J. Carr, the attorney for the Pinelands Regional
Board of Education. The school did not initiate the police investigation
or the search of the boy's home, Carr said yesterday.

"He ("RJ") is a quiet kid and the only time he strikes out is when he
is pushed too hard," said the boy's mother. "Isn't everyone like that?"

While the Krawiecs said their son, who is on the football and wrestling
teams, has been involved in an "occasional fight" at school, he never
initiates fights.

"He is a big boy and people are picking on him," Denise Krawiec said.
"He is tired of getting picked on and he is doing the best he can not
to fight."

Officials at the high school have said the freshman, who has not been
at school since last Friday, has been disciplined appropriately.

But, citing educational statutes that prohibit them from discussing
pupil records and disciplinary actions, officials have declined to
specify if Krawiec has been suspended.

"In situations like this, where there is a threat or a perceived
threat, it is always prudent to remove the student," Carr continued.

Policy dictates that the student be referred to the child study team
for evaluation, he added.

Superintendent Clement A. Crea has the authority to suspend the student
for up to 10 days. The board can extend that time or expel, but must
first hold a hearing, Carr said.

A decision to schedule a hearing is pending the results of separate
investigations by the Ocean County prosecutor's office and the
district, Carr said.

"It is appropriate in situations like these that such a hearing take
place," Carr said. "Our primary concern is for the safety of the
students and staff within the district."

The Krawiecs, who teach hunter education as a team for the state
Division of Fish Game and Wildlife, legally own all the seized guns.

The Krawiecs, reacting to reports that AK-47s were among the items
seized, yesterday showed a police search warrant inventory listing what
authorities confiscated. It was mostly collectibles and hunting gear.

Weapons including, shotguns, rifles, handguns, BB guns, antiques, black
powder guns were stored in three locked gun safes in the home.

The collection also includes three old military rifles, a bolt-action
8mm Czech rifle and two SKS 7.62 rifles. One of the Russian-designed
rifles was made in China in 1945 and is a collector's item from the
Korean War.

Most of the ammunition was birdshot and buckshot used for hunting. That
ammunition was kept in a fourth safe.

"We didn't lock it (the gun collection) up to keep it away from the kids,
but, for everybody's safety," Denise Krawiec said. "I don't know who might
be coming to the house."

---
Asbury Park Press
http://www.injersey.com/news/story/0,1210,80470,00.html?prev=0+

--
Nation In Distress
http://www.involved.com/ewolfe/distress/

As we watch the complete moral decay and destruction of
our society by those who refuse to see the consequences
of their failed socialist policies, we are next forced to
accept their more extreme, socialist policies as solutions.


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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Unarmed Dead
Date: 30 May 1998 18:42:00 -0700


---------- Forwarded message ----------
    [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

In light of all the anti-gun blather being bleated on Pravda the last
couple of weeks, here are some statistics which show what can, and
eventually does, happen when a government makes it illegal to own firearms:

The following 123 million ordinary human beings did NOT have guns:

The 20th century's top nine megamurderers, as estimated in the book
"Death by Government"

               unarmed dead
Joseph Stalin   42,672,000    1929-1936
Mao Tse-Tung    37,828,000    1923-1976
Adolph Hitler   20,946,000    1933-1945
Chiang Kai-shek 10,214,000    1921-1948
Vladimir Lenin   4,017,000    1917-1924
Hideki Tojo      3,990,000    1937-1945
Pol Pot          2,397,000    1968-1987
Yayha Khan       1,500,000    1971 (Pakistan)
Josip Tito       1,172,000    1941-1987 (Yugoslavia)

- Monte

 --------------------------------------------------------------------
  "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit."
               - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika"
 --------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Idaho Observer
                    http://proliberty.com/observer



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From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation!
Date: 31 May 1998 00:48:44 -0600


On Sat, 30 May 98 08:08:00 -0700,  [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON) posted:

>Then I take it you disagree with the NRA's politically correct and
>federally implemented position that a person who has a record of felony
>conviction, or a psychiatric commitment, should be forever anathema and
>defenseless in the world because she has supposedly forfeited her
>"civil" rights?

Yes I do.  The simple fact is if they are willing to obey the current
law and not obtain a gun, they probably don't pose any threat anyway.
Those who do pose a threat can and always will be able to easily buy,
steal, or make weapons.

--

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

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