ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/utah-firearms/archive/utah-firearms.200109

Internet Message Format | 2001-09-27 | 86.2 KB

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: URLs
Date: 07 Sep 2001 09:25:41 -0600

ACLU says gun questions erode rights
----------
   Civil liberties advocates criticized a Denver appeals court
   for eroding Fourth Amendment protections by allowing police
   to ask stopped motorists whether they have a gun. "How many
   of these things have to happen before we realize we're
   living in a police state," asked an ACLU attorney. (09/07/01)
http://www.newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=749039&pic=none&TP=getarticle

Political science
----------
by Dave Kopel & Glenn Reynolds
   A National Academy of Sciences panel which will study the
   effects of firearms violence does not include in its
   goals searching out the benefits of gun ownership.
   Another example of politically rigged government
   science, write the authors. (08/29/01)
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel082901.shtml

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles C Hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: [LPUtah] FW: ALERT:  Another Anti-gun Amendment Coming
Date: 07 Sep 2001 10:23:00 -0600


--------- Forwarded message ----------

Calls Needed to Sink Another Anti-gun Schumer Amendment

(Thursday, September 6, 2001) -- They're baaack!

Yes, the Congress is back, and our liberties are under fire once
again.

You will remember that in July, Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) offered an
amendment to force the FBI to keep gun buyers names for at least 90
days.  After you guys contacted your Representatives, the Moran
amendment failed miserably by a vote of 268-161.

Now, Mr. Anti-Freedom himself -- Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer of
New York -- wants to require the FBI to register gun buyers.
Attorney General John Ashcroft recently reduced the registration
period to 24 hours, but Schumer & Co. want to ratchet that time
period back up to at least 90 days.  Sen. Schumer is reportedly
looking to offer his amendment to the Senate's
Commerce-Justice-State budget bill (S. 1215).

Gun owners should ask their Senators to vote AGAINST the Schumer
amendment.  Obviously, the best answer would be for Congress to
repeal the unconstitutional Brady registration law.  Short of that,
Congress should enact the original Smith amendment which passed the
Senate by a 69-31 vote in 1998.

The Smith language calls for the "immediate destruction" of ANY and
ALL information that might help identify lawful gun buyers.
Moreover, the bill specifically authorizes private individuals to
sue the FBI for registering gun owners and specifically offers to
compensate them for legal fees when they sue the FBI.

ACTION:  While the Senate could vote as early as today on this
amendment, it probably will not get to it until at least next
Tuesday.  Please use the prewritten text below to help direct your
comments to your Senators.  You can call your Senators at
202-224-3121. To identify your Senators, as well as to send a
message via e-mail, see the Legislative Action Center at
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm on the GOA website.


----- Pre-written message -----

Dear Senator:

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) is planning to offer an amendment
forcing the FBI to violate the privacy of thousands upon thousands
of law-abiding Americans.  The Senator wants the FBI to keep the
names of decent gun buyers for at least 90 days.

I urge you to oppose this amendment should Sen. Schumer offer it to
the Commerce-Justice-State bill (S. 1215).

I think the Senate should reenact the Smith amendment from 1998 --
an amendment which passed by a 69-31 vote.  His language required
the "immediate destruction" of ANY and ALL information that might
help identify lawful gun buyers.

Gun Owners of America will be keeping me updated on this issue.

Sincerely,


**************

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The F.L.I.R. Project includes a proper re-enactment to examine the
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You can purchase this film from Gun Owners Foundation at
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a money-saving $49.99.
________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: 2ndAmendmentNews
Date: 08 Sep 2001 15:25:59 -0600

   *  *  *  *     2ndAmendmentNews   *  *  *  *

WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET
By Weldon Clark

This affects the nation. So far the Bush White House has refused to
answer the following letter from South Carolina Representative Dwight
Loftis. It is published here with his permission. They have also
refused to answer my personal letter on the same subject. It is up to
you to send in your letters to President Bush and your own congressman
to get them to stand up for our rights. E-mail will not do the job here.

DO NOT ASSUME THEY WILL TAKE OUR SIDE. Place them on record with your
own US mail letter. Also send your own letter to your own Congressman.

This ban effects almost all the rifles used in rifle competition (except
small bore) including the state and national matches, collecting and
guns used for hunting.

  From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team

Writing your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished
at the speed of light.  Use URLs as follows:
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
Contacts for federal & state legislators
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

You can call your two Senators at [phone] and your
Representative at [phone] at the Capitol Switchboard.

Here are the URLs for the United States Congress
Official list of House of Representatives members by state
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/olm107.php3
Official list of House of Representatives members with phone numbers
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mcapdir.php3
Official list of House of Representatives members mailing addresses
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mbrcmtee/mailinglists/ASCIImemberlabels.txt
Here are the URLs for the United States Senate
Official list of members by state
http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm
Official list of members alphabetically dig on name to get address
Phone fax and e mail (the individual Senators have different pages)
http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm

U. S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, U.S. Depart. Of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Washington, DC 20530-0001
mailto:[e-mail]

President George W. Bush, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW,
Washington, DC 20500 mailto:[e-mail]

Under Secretary Bolton U. S. Department of State 2201 C Street NW,
Washington,
DC 20520 [phone] mailto:[e-mail]

To spread the word call Rush Limbaugh at 800-282-2882 and callers may
call in from 12 noon to 3PM EST, M-F

Letter from House of Representatives State of South Carolina Dwight A.
Loftis District No. 19 û Greenville County August 16, 2001

-----------------

President George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC 20500

Dear President Bush:

It has come to my attention that some of your White House staff has
indicated that you support continuation of the so-called assault
weapons ban of 1994. I understand this band will sunset in 2004.

In 1994 Congress passed an importation and manufacture ban on the very
type firearms that the U.S. Supreme Court said were protected by the
Constitution in their U.S. vs. Miller decision in 1939.

The America people rewarded this unconstitutional behavior in Congress
by electing Republican majorities in both Houses in 1994 for the first
time in 40 years.

Your Attorney General John Ashcroft was reported to have said that an
exception to allow support of firearms laws is of compelling
government interest. I submit to you that in the case of the so-called
assault weapons ban, no such compelling government interest exist.

In the South Carolina General Assembly, I was the House sponsor of a
successful repeal of a ban on the ownership and possession of rifles,
pistols and shotguns that were made under contract to the United
States Government. This law covered many more firearms than the law in
California and the federal ban on so-called assault firearms.

Firearms owners were very pleased and there was no protest from the
media or anyone else. No additional crimes were credited to this
repeal. Nothing bad happened.

I would ask your consideration to allow this ban to sunset as
scheduled in 2004.

Sincerely, Dwight A. Loftis

* * * * *   DIRECT ACTION is grassroots activism at its best!

2ndAmendmentNews is part of the growing network of state and local
groups fighting for our rights. To subscribe or unsubscribe from
2ndAmendmentNews, please send your request with correct email address
included to mailto:[e-mail]

To reach the publishers with your alerts or suggestions for future
articles, please mailto:[e-mail] with correct email address.

Please feel free to forward and circulate this newsletter! And check
out these other grassroots projects in the network ....

To receive Neal Knox's bi-monthly newsletter, send a contribution of
$25 or more to The Firearms Coalition, Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108.
For current news and legislative updates contact, call 1-900-225-3006
(89 cents per minute) or visit http://www.NealKnox.com/ (free) and go
to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line".

Learn "What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia
Weapons" at http://www.SecondAmendment.net/

The Georgia Sport Shooting Association wants you! A free shooting
events list is published every two weeks. Sign up at
http://www.gssa.com/

Be sure to track the battle for our rights in the front-line state of
Maryland at http://www.direct-action.org/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: MORNING OF HORROR
Date: 11 Sep 2001 14:15:13 -0600

-------- Original Message --------

My server's claiming "too many recipients", which keeps me from
sending it to my address books. This worries me. Please pass this
on, far and wide.

N.

MORNING OF HORROR

By L. Neil Smith <mailto:[e-mail]>

Special to _The Libertarian Enterpise_


First of all, expect never to learn the truth about what happened
at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and elsewhere this morning
of September 11, 2001, any more than we did with regard to the
murders of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, at Ruby
Ridge, Waco, or Oklahoma City. Ambiguity and uncertainty serve
far too many political interests.

Another certainty is that, although I'm told 50,000 people worked
in the World Trade Center, more innocent individuals will die
as a result of what the Old Media are lovingly referring to as
a "lockdown" of Manhattan and other places, than any acts of
terrorism that may have occurred. The military has just said
they'll shoot down any plane they see flying. Only one civilian
plane is in the air this morning, Air Force One; that's as grim
a warning of things to come as I can think of.

"Collateral" deaths won't just happen as a consequence, say, of
somebody with a heart attack being unable to get to a hospital,
but whenever and wherever some dumb kid in an army uniform gets
startled by a car backfiring and starts spraying everybody and his
pet poodle with automatic rifle fire. Or to whomever the martial
lawyers decide it's safe to liquidate using this foul mess as a
cover. Or, vastly more ominously, to people in the not-so-distant
future who decide they must resist the police state that will
inevitably result from these events.

It's extremely difficult to think coherently about long term
effects, let alone to get it all down in writing, when you learn
that, not only were hijacked commercial aircraft used to commit
these unspeakably evil acts, but that 90 passengers died
helplessly in the first plane, and others yet unnumbered may
have died in subsequent attacks. _Somebody_ has to think about
it, though, or this situation will be used to turn the Bill of
Rights off forever. Depending on the planning behind it, or who
did the planning, it may already be too late.

All airports have been shut down today, and I shudder to think
about what flying will be like from now on. The Clintons,
Schumers, and Waxmans will try to shut down the Internet,
calling it a breeding ground for terrorism. The Bushes and
Cheneys will "reluctantly" go along.

Rush Limbaugh will cheer them on.

What should those who value their freedom do? Every chance you
have, from this moment on, whether it's on talk radio, or on the
letters to the editor page, on the Internet while it's still
possible, or in communication with everyone you know -- it's time
for even the most apolitical to write to senators and congressmen
-- emphasize two points:

First, inform them that closing down the First or Second or any
other Amendment is not an appropriate response to what's happened,
and that any politician or bureaucrat in office who attempts to
capitalize on today's horrors is committing the same sort of
blatantly criminal act I've always insisted must be punished
under Bill of Rights enforcement.

Second, these things happen to nations with imperial ambitions.
There has never been a major act of terrorism I know of that
hasn't resulted from an act of government that violated somebody's
rights. The way to keep this sort of thing from  happening again
is to stop those violations.

Hideously enough, my new novel _The American Zone_, scheduled to
be published next November by Tor Books, begins with an act very
similar to this one, carried out to force the creation of a
strong central government in the governmentless "North American
Confederacy" that figures in so many of my books. As anybody who
knows my work can safely predict, the evil scheme doesn't work
and the villains are defeated.

Life isn't as predictably pleasant as fiction. Happy endings are
few and far between. But it's important to act swiftly if we're to
preserve anything resembling the freedom that made this civilization
great.

Pass the word.


http://www.smith2004.org/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET
Date: 11 Sep 2001 16:22:34 -0600

-------- Original Message --------

   *  *  *  *     2ndAmendmentNews   *  *  *  *

WHITE HOUSE UNRESPONSIVE ON GUN BAN SUNSET
By Weldon Clark

This affects the nation. So far the Bush White House has refused to
answer the following letter from South Carolina Representative Dwight
Loftis. It is published here with his permission. They have also
refused to answer my personal letter on the same subject. It is up to
you to send in your letters to President Bush and your own congressman
to get them to stand up for our rights. E-mail will not do the job here.

DO NOT ASSUME THEY WILL TAKE OUR SIDE. Place them on record with your
own US mail letter. Also send your own letter to your own Congressman.

This ban effects almost all the rifles used in rifle competition (except
small bore) including the state and national matches, collecting and
guns used for hunting.

>From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team

Writing your CONGRESSMAN OR STATE LEGISLATORS can now be accomplished
at the speed of light.  Use URLs as follows:
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
Contacts for federal & state legislators
http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

You can call your two Senators at [phone] and your
Representative at [phone] at the Capitol Switchboard.

Here are the URLs for the United States Congress
Official list of House of Representatives members by state
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/olm107.php3
Official list of House of Representatives members with phone numbers
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mcapdir.php3
Official list of House of Representatives members mailing addresses
http://clerkweb.house.gov/107/mbrcmtee/mailinglists/ASCIImemberlabels.txt
Here are the URLs for the United States Senate
Official list of members by state
http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm
Official list of members alphabetically dig on name to get address
Phone fax and e mail (the individual Senators have different pages)
http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm

U. S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, U.S. Depart. Of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Washington, DC 20530-0001
[e-mail]

President George W. Bush, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW,
Washington, DC 20500  [e-mail]

Under Secretary Bolton U. S. Department of State 2201 C Street NW,
Washington,
DC 20520   [phone]  [e-mail]

To spread the word call Rush Limbaugh at 800-282-2882 and callers may
call in from 12 noon to 3PM EST, M-F

Letter from House of Representatives State of South Carolina Dwight A.
Loftis District No. 19 - Greenville County August 16, 2001

-----------------

President George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC 20500

Dear President Bush:

It has come to my attention that some of your White House staff has
indicated that you support continuation of the so-called assault
weapons ban of 1994. I understand this band will sunset in 2004.

In 1994 Congress passed an importation and manufacture ban on the very
type firearms that the U.S. Supreme Court said were protected by the
Constitution in their U.S. vs. Miller decision in 1939.

The America people rewarded this unconstitutional behavior in Congress
by electing Republican majorities in both Houses in 1994 for the first
time in 40 years.

Your Attorney General John Ashcroft was reported to have said that an
exception to allow support of firearms laws is of compelling
government interest. I submit to you that in the case of the so-called
assault weapons ban, no such compelling government interest exist.

In the South Carolina General Assembly, I was the House sponsor of a
successful repeal of a ban on the ownership and possession of rifles,
pistols and shotguns that were made under contract to the United
States Government. This law covered many more firearms than the law in
California and the federal ban on so-called assault firearms.

Firearms owners were very pleased and there was no protest from the
media or anyone else. No additional crimes were credited to this
repeal. Nothing bad happened.

I would ask your consideration to allow this ban to sunset as
scheduled in 2004.

Sincerely, Dwight A. Loftis

* * * * *   DIRECT ACTION is grassroots activism at its best!

2ndAmendmentNews is part of the growing network of state and local
groups fighting for our rights. To subscribe or unsubscribe from
2ndAmendmentNews, please send your request with correct email address
included to [e-mail]

To reach the publishers with your alerts or suggestions for future
articles, please send your mail with correct email address to
[e-mail]

Please feel free to forward and circulate this newsletter! And check
out these other grassroots projects in the network ....

To receive Neal Knox's bi-monthly newsletter, send a contribution of
$25 or more to The Firearms Coalition, Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108.
For current news and legislative updates contact, call 1-900-225-3006
(89 cents per minute) or visit http://www.NealKnox.com (free) and go
to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line".

Learn "What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia
Weapons" at http://www.SecondAmendment.net

The Georgia Sport Shooting Association wants you! A free shooting
events list is published every two weeks. Sign up at
http://www.gssa.com

Be sure to track the battle for our rights in the front-line state of
Maryland at http://www.direct-action.org

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Redistricting Meeting 9/13/01 7:00 AM & K-mart's latest
Date: 12 Sep 2001 00:44:19 -0600


While this may not appear directly related to guns, redistricting does
affect--for the next ten years--how easy it will be to elect good people
to office.

This was written from a Republican perspective.  If you are Republican,
you probalby want to show up.  If you are a Democrat, you probably ought
to make sure that your pro-gun democratic candidate is not being
redistricted out of his/her seat.

----------------
Charles Hardy
<[e-mail]>

--------- Forwarded message ----------
Message-ID: <001901c13b46$6188f680$80d1e0cf@hansen>

1. Redistricting Meeting Alert--This is critical if we are to be able to
vote Matheson out.
2. Kmart pulls all guns and ammo from shelves.

But first, my comments:

This latest terrorist attack will, for certain, mean more incursions into
your Constitutional rights. Get ready for it. It's coming. More gun
control,
more search and seizure violations, more traffic checkpoints, more
telephone/video monitoring. All to make you "feel safe."

Of course, one thing I haven't heard is the media/politicians saying that
perhaps these airliners are sitting ducks because of their citizen
disarmament policy: everybody--except apparently the terrorists who
always
find a way around such contrivances--had been stripped of their right to
life as they passed through those wonderful, fail-safe metal detectors.

Maybe if just a few passengers on these airliners were surrepticiously
armed, perhaps the terrorists would find themselves at a great
disadvantage
and not be able to pull off such mayhem. So much for metal detectors and
the
enhanced "'feeling of safety" they provide. I guess the trade-off of that
wonderful "feeling of safety" is worth the loss of ten or fifteen
thousand
citizens?

Remember how years ago as a freshman senator Orrin Hatch purposely
applied
to be a Federal Marshall, just so he could carry a firearm wherever he
went,
including--loaded--on an airplane? Where's Orrin now? Why isn't he
fighting
for our rights? Why does his life matter more than the lives of we
plebians?
If Orrin's record stays true to his latest course, count on him to "lead
the
charge" against your Constitutional rights, just as he "led the charge"
to
ensure the seating of some of the most liberal anti-freedom judges in our
country's history.

While it is laudable to seek to punish those who commit such atrocities,
it
is stupidity to continue to leave yourselves vulnerable to repeated
atrocities. When will we learn?

God bless America.

David A. Hansen

1. Redistricting Meeting Alert.

"James M. Evans" <[e-mail]> | Block Address | Add to Subject:
[UTGrassroots] Redistricting Meeting 9/13/01 7:00AM

There is one last meeting of the redistricting committee on 9/13/01 at
the
state capitol room 129, at 7:00am. It is vital that as many republicans
as
possible show up to this meeting. During the past meetings only democrats
were showing up and I strongly believe that this is having an impact on
the
committee. We must show up just to remind them not to give too much away.
We
need about 100 people. Let me know if you are able to come. I need you to
call party activist and ask them to show up. After the 9/13/01 meeting,
the
next time redistricting will be heard is at the special session in Oct.
We
only have ourselves to blame if we don't give one hour (7:00am to 8:00am)
on
9/13/01, state capitol room 129. I have been ask by committee members how
do
we(party activists) feel about their performance. The time to let them
know
is on 9/13/01. Absent our imput who knows what will happen. WE MUST SHOW
UP!
If you have any questions call me at 560-0074. Thanks

James Evans

And from Ronald Levine:

Republican friends,

I agree with this one and urge you to show up.  For those of us who don't
know that much about the politics of redistricting -- we win the battle
if
you just show up.  Winning is just a matter of work.  This work is easy
and
I will just ask you to do this once every ten years.  This is a strength
of
numbers thing.  Redistricting is a matter of political advantage and
Democrats have been organized and have shown up to the meetings and we
have
not.  Let's not allow them that advantage.  The redistricting committee
in
their effort to appear fair have been taken advantage of by an organized
Democratic showing.  Redistricting occurs every 10 years for drawing new
political boundaries.  The population growth has been in the Republican
areas, so we should have more Republican legislative seats.

Come: Redistricting Meeting Thursday at 7:00 a.m. at the State Capitol
room
129.

Ronald H Levine


2. Kmart Does it again.

K-mart has pulled all guns and ammo off the shelves.  Apparently K-mart
executives want to make sure only the terrorists have a way of
assaulting,
while leaving the rest of us defenseless. You  may wish to avoid shopping
at
businesses such as K-mart who kowtow to politically correct forces of the
day who would force us to take a knife or less to a gunfight against
criminals who would hardly limit themselves to such inferior firepower.

If you would like to express your deepest appriciation for K-mart's
latest
Rosie-type action, you may do so at:

Lori V. Gagnon
Senior Director of Customer Care
BlueLight.com
PO Box 417
Lewis Center, Ohio
43035
[e-mail]

Kmart Corporation
Customer Service
3100 West Big Beaver Road
Troy, Michigan
48084
[e-mail]
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 00:39:41 -0600

Please forgive some cross posting.  I think this is important info to get
out.

For any who have missed it--and it would be easy since it isn't getting a
lot of coverage--it appears that in at least one of the hijackings today,
the weapon used was "knives and box" cutters.  Apparantly, one of the
regular CNN correspondants was on the plane that hit the Pentagon.  She
made a call to her husband.  The hijackers (no number given but plural
used) used knives and box cutters to take over the plane.  They forced
the passengers and flight crew into the back part of the plane.  Tonight,
the on screen text on one station stated that authorities now believe
knives were used by 3 to 5 man teams to take over the planes.

My wife was aghast at how 5 men with knives and box cutters could
overpower a whole plane with 80 or more people on it.  We both realized
that this changes all the rules about plane hijackings.  While resistance
may not save your own life in such a situation, it sure looks like now
that it may well save untold other lives.  It is also clear that you
don't need to get a bomb or even a gun onto a plane.  A plane is a bomb
and so long as everyone else is disarmed and unwilling to risk injury, 4
or 5 men with knives can rule.

This means that heaven only knows how many people--10,000? 20,000?-- very
possibly lost their lives today to 20 guys armed with nothing but small
knives and only probably 4 or 8 of whom had some modest training in how
to fly (no need to know how to take off or land, just fly once airborne)
a jet.

We are already hearing about how this is going to affect air travel.
Longer checkins, no one but ticketed passangers through security, x ray
all luggage, etc, etc, etc.  The "poorly trained and poorly paid" airport
security personel are being blamed.  Night shift maintaince, cleaning,
and other airport personel are being looked at as possible insider
conspirators.  It is possible that any one of those things may have
played a role.  But it is also entirely possible that 20 men simply
walked through security with legal knives in their pockets, or
not-so-legal-for-aircraft knives hidden on their person in such a way as
to minimize chances of detection in the metal detector (Metal detectors
tend to detect total metal and do so better in some geometric planes than
others. So it is possible by using a knife with low metal content,
positioning it right, and having absolutely no other metal on your body,
to walk it right through a metal detector set at a moderate
sensitivity.), or stashed carefully inside carry-on luggage (such as
inside a metal film case designed to shield high speed film from xray
damage), or even built into laptop computers or some such device.  The
Boston Herald suggests the "knives" were stashed in shaving kits and were
actually plastic handles holding razor blades.  Flight attendants were
killed to draw the pilot out of the cockpit in one plane it seems.

There is no evidence that guns were used.  Indeed, the fact that in the
4th plane a passenger locked himself in a bathroom and was able to make a
cell call strongly suggests there were no guns.  A hijacker with a
gun--properly loaded--simply shoots through the door and kills an
uncooperative passenger locked in a bathroom.  But a suicide hijacker
with a knife, can't do much short of wasting time forcing open the door.

But I will bet dollars to doughnuts that before this is through we hear
calls for more gun control, less freedom of speech--especially on the
internet--less freedom of assembly--especially for "militia types"--less
privacy from wiretaps and searches and seizures.

IMHO, it is simply impossible, in a free society to eliminate the
possibility that things such as this might happen.  There is no way to
keep all the people traveling who need to and want to travel in this
country and do the kind of highly intrusive searches and security that
will prevent a determined terrorist.  We can stop the occasional nut case
and the harmless innocent who forgets about the hunting knife in his
overnight case.  But we simply cannot stop a detemined terrorist.

We can and should make sure that retaliation is swift, sure, and awful to
those who perpetuate such crimes as well as those who support or harbor
them.  The bill of rights certainly does not apply to non citizens far
beyond our borders.  Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are
some individuals, groups, and cities--if not nations--that should cease
to exist after this.

We can and should provide some measure of security in the planes
themselves.  Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes
is not a very good solution.  Even LEOs have to go through special FAA
training before they are supposed to carry their guns on planes.  So as
much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear me suggesting passengers--even
those with CCW permits--be allowed to carry guns on planes.  However,
heavily trained, plainclothes, armed skymarshalls ought to be regular
features on flights.  Here in Utah we require that armed security be
provided anytime and anyplace that citizens are disarmed.  Why is a plane
any different?  And it isn't like this is without precedent.
SkyMarshalls were not uncommon on airlines during the hijacking spree of
the 70s.  They helped end teh spree.  I understand they are still used in
nations such as Israel.

And, having discovered that there are FAR worse things that one can do
with a plane than simply blow it up mid flight, cockpits can and should
be heavily secured.  It would be a very modest increase in the cost of
airliners to have a real door, bullet and explosive resistant, with real
locks, between the cockpit and the passengers.  It would be a modest
change of policy to require pilots to keep those doors secured
even--perhaps especially--in the event of some problem or disturbance in
the cabin.  Maybe brawny men ought to be recruited as flight attendants
along with the usual women.

We should probably re-examine our foreign policy.  We must come to the
realization that there are people in the world who really hate us.  To
many moslem nations WE are the great pagons of the world with our loose
morals and immodest dress.  Pagons "over there" are one thing.  But
pagons in your own backyard are bound to engender strong feelings.  There
are people in the world who really hate self government.  We are naive
and arrogant in this regard.  Bear in mind that even among the so-called
free nations, NONE has adopted OUR unique form of government.  Most all
"democracies" use some variant of the English parlimentary system.  We
take as our right to do things in other countries that we would not
accept for one minute another nation doing in the U.S.  We do, needlessly
in too many cases, IMO make ourselves targets by ignoring both the Monroe
doctrine and Pres. Washington's wise advice to avoid entangling foreign
alliances as well as the words in our Declaration of Independance which
state we hold all nations to be "friends in peace, enemies in war."  We
should probably give serious thought to what really constitutes national
vital interests.  IMO, maintaining a supply of oil probably is vital;
"keeping peace" among third world goat herders probably is not.

Finally, we must re-grow some backbones as Americans.  Men with razors
stabbing and slicing flight attendants is surely a grizzly scene.  But
even with knives, 4 or 5 men should not be able to force compliance from
60 or 80 AMERICANS.  We must throw off the liberal, HCI taught doctrine
of compliance with crimminals.  Resistance--even at the cost of personal
injury--must be re-taught and relearned as a personal virture.  Crime is
rampant because it does pay.  99 times out of 100, a purse or wallet is
handed over with only a wimper to not hurt anyone.  If even one time in
the ten the perp was shot dead, we'd have fewer muggers.  If 20 or 30
percent of intended rape victims shot their attacker, rapists might find
more socially acceptable ways to fulfill their sick needs.

There is some speculation that perhaps the 4th airliner was deliberately
crashed once someone realized what was happening.  If so, that is good
news for our country's culture.  But it should not have come to that.
The news today should have been about 4 FAILED hijacking attempts wherein
a couple dozen airline passengers and flight attendants were injured or
killed with knives while 20 terrorists were subdued or killed as they
were outnumbered 5 or 10 to one by angry male passengers before they
could take over the planes.  Instead, 20 men with KNIVES managed to
slaughter 10,000-20,000 Americans.

I don't mean to degrade the memory of anyone.  In their defense, most
people honestly believe that no resistance is the best way to avoid harm.
 But let us learn the lessons of the day and not make the same mistake in
the future.

Let us make sure that we raise our voices loud and sure against all who
would suggest we must now sacrifice essential liberties on the alter of
pretended security.  New Hapshire, I believe, has a State motto of "Live
free or die."  Do we really believe that anymore?  Now is the time to
make sure others consider the danger of subcoming to the siren song of
safety and security--whether on a plane, or on their streets.

May God bless those who have lost so much today.  And may He bless each
of us to help, and comfort, and serve those in need in whatever way we
can.  May He also bless each of us and our countrymen with courage to
remain free.

----------------
Charles Hardy
<[e-mail]>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 07:59:32 -0600

charles hardy wrote:

>Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes
>is not a very good solution.  Even LEOs have to go through
>special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their
>guns on planes.  So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear
>me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be
>allowed to carry guns on planes.

Although one would not want to shoot into the cockpit or damage
flight control mechanisms, small holes in the fuselage are no
big deal. It is rather unlikely to rupture, nor will several
bullet holes overwhelm the pressurization system. Nevertheless,
sky marshalls carry grooved aluminum hollowpoint bullets.

Considering your other concerns, perhaps passengers should
carry fighting knives. Istr once seeing ads in places like
Soldier of Fortune for fiber composite knives that would
not activate metal detectors. I'm not advocating smuggling
weapons to defeat airport security, but rather emphasizing
the need to change those restrictions, as these incidents
show. In the meantime, I wouldn't fly commercial except
under duress. (assuming flights resume) Attacking brawny,
knife-wielding hijackers with bare hands and feet isn't
my first choice. However, why not an airliner enhancement
on the CCW permit (or instead of, should we get Vermont
carry), much like the motorcycle enhancement on a driver
license?

Scott

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: WHILE NORMAN LEARED
Date: 12 Sep 2001 08:44:48 -0600

WHILE NORMAN LEARED

By L. Neil Smith <mailto:[e-mail]>

Special to _The Libertarian Enterprise_
Please copy and send at will, with proper credit


Professor John Lott wrote a book a few years ago, called _More Guns
Mean Less Crime_, in which he said things -- the mere title was
enough -- that still have the victim disarmament crowd screaming and
weeping. Today, after horrifying attacks on the World Trade Center
and the Pentagon, we can now safely observe that no guns mean the
ultimate crime.

When I started writing my first novel, _The Probability Broach_, in
1977, I was just back from a national Libertarian Party convention
where I was almost laughed off the platform committee I was a member
of, because I introduced a plank warning that airport security --
featuring metal detectors, X-ray machines, and Air Marshalls -- which
was a relatively new thing back then, represented the seeds of a
police state. Each year that's passed since then has only proven that
I was right. I now rest my case -- although I'm not promising to shut
up.

One of the features of _The Probability Broach_ that was fun to write,
and just as significant as my prediction, in the same book, of the
Internet as we now know it, was a scene in which the hero, a cop from
our world, boards an aircraft with his friends and is startled when
representatives of the company merely want him to demonstrate that the
ammunition in the guns he carries is designed not to harm the
aircraft.

I confess that I got this idea, way back then, from an episode of
_All in the Family_ in which Archie Bunker proposes arming airline
passengers to prevent hijackings. Norman Lear obviously thought the
notion represented the very height of right-wing absurdity. But
somebody tell me -- now -- how an aircraft full of well-armed people
could be hijacked and used against civilization the way five were today.

I'm not the only one who's thought of this. I have messages from
others, including my good friend Tom Knapp, who would agree with me
that everyone who died today, or was injured, in any of these attacks
was, first and foremost, a victim of Thomas Dodd, Howard Metzenbaum,
Pete Shields, Sarah Brady, Charles Schumer, Diane Feinstein, Diana
DeGette, and anybody else who ever strove to disarm victims of crime
-- not to forget Norman Lear himself who's spent most of his overly
long life ridiculing everything that made this culture prosperous
and safe.

And a special thought has to go out to the Manchurian Candidate
himself, gungrabbing Senator John McCain, whose blabbery about this
event is being broadcast everywhere by the whorish media who adore
him so.

However it's also important to thank Wayne LaPierre and all other
so-called Second Amendment leaders who've cozied up to the anti-gun
crowd. Moreover, H.L. Richardson presently doing his best to wreck
Gun Owners of America, had better quit trying to imitate LaPierre
right now, and start holding the line again. With the Internet
nipping at his heels, he'll achieve nothing he values in trying to
suck up to the Republicans.

An armed society -- a society consisting of armed individuals -- is
not immune to terrorism. No truly open society can be. But today's
acts would simply have been impossible to carry out successfully.
What's more, today's events turn one's mind to thoughts of Vin
Suprynowicz who, more than any other pro-freedom writer, has been
concerned with restoring the individual's right to really _large_
weapons.

Suppose the terrorists had stolen empty planes, sidestepping the
threat represented by armed passengers. The giant World Trade Center
buildings have been the target of terrorists before -- conspicuous,
juicy targets. And yet seven decades of wholly illegal gun laws
prevented their owners or tenants from placing anti-aircraft guns
or rockets, or gatling guns made to shoot down cruise missiles, on
their roofs.

More proof that gun control kills.

Sooner or later, all of this will run its course and we'll find
ourselves on the other side of these events, looking back. Almost
everyone I'm listening to agrees that things will never be the same
in America.

That can happen, of course, in either of two ways. Unlike other
countries -- pre-World War II Germany, for example -- people trusted
the government. When things like this happened and the state turned
the tap handle on their liberty, they believed it only had their best
interests at heart. Today, thanks to terrible events from the Kennedy
assassination to Waco, you'd be pressed to find a four-year-old who
does.

America would never be the same if this event inspired us to make
the 21st century the century of the Bill of Rights. There are many
-- I just saw a pessimistic message from Jerry Pournelle that the US
will now become an empire forever -- who consider that impossible.
But we advocates of liberty have a powerful argument to make about
how Bill of Rights enforcement could have prevented this evil,
deliberate disaster.

It's time to make that argument, as loudly and as widely as we can.

L. Neil Smith's Webley Page  --> http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil
The Libertarian Enterprise   --> http://www.webleyweb.com/tle
Draft L. Neil for President  --> http://www.smith2004.org

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:
Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:28:16 -0400


One thing to note here.  You don't need ANY weapons to hijack a plane.  You
just need to convince others that you have them.  Just the threat of
weapons is enough.

I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with United)
whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA.  He had called
using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the hijackers
claimed to have a bomb.  She said that he did not mention any other weapons
like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns.  They probably didn'y have a
bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other male passengers
probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made them fail their
mission...

Chad


--On Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:59 AM -0600 Scott Bergeson
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> charles hardy wrote:
>
>> Obviously, allowing random firearms into pressurized planes
>> is not a very good solution.  Even LEOs have to go through
>> special FAA training before they are supposed to carry their
>> guns on planes.  So as much as I support RKBA, you'll not hear
>> me suggesting passengers--even those with CCW permits--be
>> allowed to carry guns on planes.
>
> Although one would not want to shoot into the cockpit or damage
> flight control mechanisms, small holes in the fuselage are no
> big deal. It is rather unlikely to rupture, nor will several
> bullet holes overwhelm the pressurization system. Nevertheless,
> sky marshalls carry grooved aluminum hollowpoint bullets.
>
> Considering your other concerns, perhaps passengers should
> carry fighting knives. Istr once seeing ads in places like
> Soldier of Fortune for fiber composite knives that would
> not activate metal detectors. I'm not advocating smuggling
> weapons to defeat airport security, but rather emphasizing
> the need to change those restrictions, as these incidents
> show. In the meantime, I wouldn't fly commercial except
> under duress. (assuming flights resume) Attacking brawny,
> knife-wielding hijackers with bare hands and feet isn't
> my first choice. However, why not an airliner enhancement
> on the CCW permit (or instead of, should we get Vermont
> carry), much like the motorcycle enhancement on a driver
> license?
>
> Scott
>
> -
>
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:47:47 -0600

"Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" wrote:

>I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with United)
>whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA.  He had called
>using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the hijackers
>claimed to have a bomb.  She said that he did not mention any other weapons
>like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns.  They probably didn'y have a
>bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other male passengers
>probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made them fail their
>mission...

Should you find a transcript of this interview, please post the URL.

Scott

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:
Subject: Re: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:52:37 -0400

Hi

It was on Good Morning America originally, according to a reuters.com
article.  The lady mentioned in this URL (which is not a URL of the
interview nor does it mention the weapons) is the same lady.  I found this
after my previous email was sent.

http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=default&StoryID=214541

Chad

--On Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:47 AM -0600 Scott Bergeson
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" wrote:
>
>> I just saw an interview with a lady (who is a flight attendant with
>> United) whose male relative was on the plane that crashed in PA.  He had
>> called using the in-flight phone in the seat back and said that the
>> hijackers claimed to have a bomb.  She said that he did not mention any
>> other weapons like knives, razors, box cutters, or guns.  They probably
>> didn'y have a bomb and she speculated that her relative and some other
>> male passengers probably tried to subdue these guys and in so doing made
>> them fail their mission...
>
> Should you find a transcript of this interview, please post the URL.
>
> Scott
>
> -
>
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:
Subject: Go get them! (fwd)
Date: 12 Sep 2001 11:53:42 -0400

Here is a mail I just sent to President Bush.  He'll probably never get to
see it but someone there might read it.

Chad

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
<[e-mail]>

Dear Mr. President!

I wanted to let you know that we, the American people, are behind you.  I'd
much rather have you and Gen. Powell and the rest in charge than that
spineless Wimp Algore, AKA Albore.  There is a well known fictional
President or two that you can use for your role models.  Jack Ryan, someone
who did not want to be President, but who was a damn fine President and did
not take things sitting down would be the first example role model for you.
The second would be the President as depicted by Harrison Ford in the movie
"Air Force One."

When you are sure of who was behind this, Mr. President, kill them all. If,
as suspected, this Osama Bin Laden guy is behind this, with his Taliban
protectors, send in a bunch of special forces hunter killer teams and kill
all of Bin Ladens people and him in Afghanistan. Kill them all.  Leaving
any left will allow them to rebuild and seek revenge.  No one will know
they are there and no one will know when they do their business.  As was
rumored in Iraq and, with Bristish SAS in Argentina in the 80s, these
soldiers can go in and stay hidden for weeks and do whatever they need to
do.  I'm sure Vladimir Putin will help out with access through Russia.  And
that Tony and Gerhardt and the rest will volunteer the SAS, and other help
as needed.  They realize that they are not immune to this as well.

Then, tell the Taliban they had their chance to hand him over and that now
it is too late.  As accessories to the crime, bomb EVERY Afghanistan
government building.  Bomb the crap out of them, Mr. President.  And then
send in the relief agencies to help the poor Afghan people who are
suffering.  An Afghan Marshall Plan.

Good luck Mr President, we are counting on you.  Be a Jack Ryan President.

Sincerely, Chad Leigh




---------- End Forwarded Message ----------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Arm yourself
Date: 12 Sep 2001 10:21:43 -0600

First two URLs are by the Hunter, last tells of passengers taking
out the hijackers (and plane, sadly) that crashed in Pennsylvania.
Don't ever fly commercial except under extreme duress until
airlines respect your right to self defense. Bankrupt them!
Hoplophobic corporations must die.

Scott

http://www.vader.com/failing_the_test.html
http://www.vader.com/arm_yourself.html

http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=default&StoryID=214541

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: From Jerry Pournelle:
Date: 12 Sep 2001 17:32:40 -0600

First claim on United Airline's (which, along with
American Airlines and the corporate officers of both,
needs to be bankrupted) assets should be for compensation
to the families of Jeremy Glick and the other passengers
who mitigated the damage United could accomplish in its
treasonous aid-giving to enemies levying war against
America.

Scott

-----
Dear Jerry,

Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along
with permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It
fills in the details that I missed in my original conversation with
him and attempted to relate to you.

Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel
free to post it if you deem it appropriate.

Sincerely,

Art Russell Major, US Army (Retired)

Message Follows:

Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very
personal one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was
on United flight 93 this morning. When the Hijackers took control
of flight 93. Jeremy called my niece who in-turn conferenced him
to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what was happening as the
hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy told the
police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large
red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the
second by second details and relayed them to the police by phone.
After several minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several
other passengers decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the
hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh,
with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other patriotic heroes
saved the lives of many people on the ground that would have died
if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous
mission.

Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were
injured in this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick
and her 2-month-old child, Emerson, who are left without their
loving Husband and Father.

May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes,
soldiers and Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry
gave their lives to save many others.

Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York
to be with our family during this time of great sadness.

All of my best,

Tom

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 17:34:33 -0700


Message Follows:

Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal
one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93
this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called my
niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what
was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy
told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large red
box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second by second
details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several minutes of
describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers decided there was
nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed
outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other
patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground that would
have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous
mission.

Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in
this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old
child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father.

May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and
Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save
many others.

Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our
family during this time of great sadness

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 9/5/2001


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Knives used in hijackings
Date: 12 Sep 2001 17:48:51 -0700

Utah Firearms,

I am not the writer of my previous post.  I got it from the API mailing
list,  I apologize for any confusion, I should have said something in the
first post.

Larry
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 9/5/2001


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: 4th plane crashed after passenger revolt?
Date: 12 Sep 2001 18:18:13 -0600

-------- Original Message --------
Cc: [e-mail]

I think we can consider this confirmed. Another person on that plane's
wife was interviewed on KGO radio this morning, he live[d] in Pleasanton,
CA, and apparently he made a total of 4 cellphone calls from the airplane
to his wife in California, who told him about the WTC airline crash
which had happened a few minutes before. He apparently asked a lot of
questions about that and on the 4th phone call said that the passengers
were going to "do something" to try and take over the plane. This was
shortly before the airplane crashed in western Pennsylvania.

Apparently not all Americans went down without a fight yesterday.
Whatever they did, they probably saved hundreds or thousands of
other people's lives by doing it.

Thanks,
-jcp-

At 10:28 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, David Farber wrote:
I too know Jerry and it is believable.


I found this on Jerry Pournelle's website. I haven't heard anything
about this anywhere else, but I know Jerry and I really doubt he'd
put this up if he didnt believe it was accurate:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/currentmail.html#eye

Joseph C. Pistritto Cell: 650 464 4859
mailto:[e-mail] Web: http://www.jcphome.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: Sarah Brady's Legacy...
Date: 13 Sep 2001 08:01:19 -0600

Let's hear Safe Utah's response to this.

-------- Original Message --------
CC: [e-mail]

http://www.vader.com/save_one_life.htm
("If it saves just one life..." article from Sierra Times 9/12/01)

http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/12/edtt091201.htm

And something that I wrote, tho' not quite as well-stated.


Amusingly and amazingly, they want to FURTHER make sheep out of people. The FAA
wants to ban knives and "knife-like" objects totally, to the point of replacing the
metal meal knives to plastic ones.

The anecdotal evidence is that three men may have tried to take matters into their
own BARE hands against the non-mercy of the hijackers and may have succeeded in
crashing a plane in relative wilderness rather than the hijackers making their way
to Camp David or the White House. Think how it might have been had some of those
folks had access to the federally limited 4" knife blades?

Better, as the hijackers were slitting the throats of the stews to "lure" the pilots
out of the cockpit, think of what might have happened had those pilots exited the
cockpit armed, albeit with glasers or other pre-fragmented rounds, in .40 handguns?

We might instead, today, have to deal with the tragedy of four planes that were
ALMOST hijacked, with the loss of a few "overly-valuable" lives and those worthless
lives of the hijackers.

Today? HOW many tens of thousands, possibly HUNDREDS of thousands, of deaths, how
many millions of damage to the 'infrastructure', how many billions of damage to the
markets, and how many trillions will it cost before America can sleep, feeling safe
again?

"If it saves even ONE life...", well damn it Sarah Brady, it MIGHT have saved "just
one life"! It might have saved tens of thousands of lives, and yet YOU think that
guns are inherently dangerous. You are a fool and a tool, and in some small way, the
deaths of all of these people are due, in some part, to your ignorance.

Am I crude to link victim disarment with a terrorist action? I think not, as we have
been at the mercy of domestic terrorists for decades -- and their method is always
the same: "give up your safety or else!"

I can only hope that Sarah and her husband, and Dickie, and Diane, and all of the
other dis-armers pass a lengthy stay in hell when they pass over, and I hope they're
met by all who have died because of the anti-gunners desire to turn us ALL into
instant victims, just add legislation.

=====
TO THE STATES.
To the States or any one of them, or any city of
   the States, Resist much, obey little,
Once unquestioning obedience, once fully enslaved,
Once fully enslaved, no nation, state, city of
    this earth, ever afterward resumes its liberty.
 -- Walt Whitman, "Leave of Grass", 1881

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
www.LibertyRoundTable.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Statist Republicans to ban encryption?
Date: 14 Sep 2001 12:48:58 -0600

Republicans need to repudiate this, or forever be
known as the (Police) Statist Republican Party.

Scott

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46816,00.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: Wow, BRAZIL does it right?
Date: 16 Sep 2001 09:51:18 -0600

Does anyone have any contacts in Brazil that could confirm or deny this
rather spectacular report?

NOTE:  I HAVE MADE NO ATTEMPT TO CONFIRM THE FOLLOWING AND POST IT IN
HOPES SOMEONE HERE CAN CONFIRM OR REFUTE IT.

----------------
Charles Hardy
<[e-mail]>

--------- Forwarded message ----------
-----
Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Passengers To Carry Light Firearms
From Thomas Buyea
[e-mail]
From Tom=E1s Mano de Carvalho
Alliance Nacional do Brasil
9-15-1

RIO DE JANEIRO - To avoid that an aircraft is used as bomb against
important buildings, the Brazilian parlament decided today to liberate
light weapons (calibre less than 0.38) for all passengers over 21 years
old.

As 65% of all Brazilians with income more than US$ 2000 always walks
equipped with gun, the government finds it safe and guaranteed that
sufficient persons will react against any eventual highjackings.

Extra information will be distributed and presented by the air
hostess, when they show the safety equipment they will also inform the
passengers to prepare eventual shot with precision, always take aim
at chest to avoid that bullets perforate the shell of the aircraft.

The president, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, wanted to make his veto
against the proposal, but was rejected by the astounding majority
of 234 against 6 votes.

Pass this information to American news-agencies to lighten a new
angle in perspective of criminality.
________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Bergeson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Depressurization?
Date: 16 Sep 2001 17:02:19 -0600

Dave Kopel covers the w/hole thing at:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel091401.shtml

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles C Hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Paycheck protection starting to work
Date: 21 Sep 2001 17:11:51 -0600

While I disagree with the headline of today's front page SLTrib article,
it does look like paycheck protection is starting to reduce the amount of
money that Utah's two largest unions can spend over influencing
elections.  So long as the State wins this one, we will see public
unions, and all other PACs on equal footing when it comes to raising
money.  Anyone who wants to contribute to the UEA or UPEA PAC (seperate
from the union itself) will have to do the same thing as those who want
to contribute to pro-gun PACs--pull out their checkbooks and send the
money in themselves.  This should also help protect teachers, police
officers, and other union members who are frequently "persuaded" to make
"voluntary" PAC contributions via payroll deduction that then go to
support political agendas contrary to their wishes.

It is just a shame that the State was not successful in blocking the
injunction.  The law is not currently in effect so payroll deductions for
PACs continue.  I urge our AG to do everything in his power to defend
this good law, win this case, and then make sure the PACs pick up the
bill for their failed suit.

Charles

http://www.sltrib.com/09212001/utah/133792.htm

GOP's Deduction Ban Backfires
                                                              Friday,
September
                                                              21, 2001


      BY DAN HARRIE
      THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

          Republican politicians who enacted a ban on payroll deduction
of
      public employees' political contributions are seeing an important
source of
      money for their campaigns drying up.
          Instead, those union donations are going to pay the costs of a
lawsuit
      challenging the new statute.
          The 6,000-member Utah Public Employees Association (UPEA) has
      placed a moratorium on campaign contributions in response to the
      GOP-controlled Legislature's passage earlier this year of House
Bill 179.
      That law, which is on hold pending outcome of the court case,
enraged
      union leaders who say it would cripple their ability to amass
political war
      chests and strip them of constitutional rights.
          "We can't continue to do business as usual," said Fred Van Der
Veur,
      UPEA executive director.
          Van Der Veur said all requests for campaign donations are being
      turned down. Ironically, some of the requests for union political
cash have
      come from the very legislators who pushed the bill to end payroll
      deduction of contributions.
          Among those receiving rejection notices: Senate President Al
Mansell,
      R-Sandy; House Speaker Marty Stephens, R-Farr West, and Senate
      Majority Leader Steve Poulton, R-Holladay, who sponsored the
      union-restricting bill in the Senate.
          Poulton makes no apologies for inviting UPEA to his
fund-raising golf
      tournament in June, at a cost of $600 per foursome.
          "I see the irony in it," Poulton acknowledged. "But I don't
pass
      legislation based on who gives me a contribution and who doesn't."
          UPEA's shutting off the money spigot promises to hit lots of
politicians
      where they live -- in the wallet.
          New campaign finance reports filed this week with the state
show
      UPEA political expenditures dropped dramatically -- to less than
half
      what they were in the last non-election year. Spending amounted to
      $31,115 through Sept. 15, compared to $77,496 during the same
period
      in 1999.
          The money that was spent was mainly for administrative costs,
along
      with a couple of $150 tickets to Gov. Mike Leavitt's annual gala.
      Normally, the UPEA buys an entire table (10 tickets) at Leavitt's
      fund-raising dinner.
          If the freeze continues until 2002, an election year, it could
be a major
      slap to politicians with their hands out . The UPEA usually is one
of the
      top three or four spending political action committees in the
state. Last
      year it pumped $210,937 into Utah elections.
          The current moratorium extends to all UPEA donations,
regardless of
      party affiliation of the solicitor. But Van Der Veur said he will
recommend
      to the board overseeing the political action committee that they
begin
      making exceptions for elected officials who have a track record of
      supporting union causes, including opposing HB179.
          Most minority Democrats in the Legislature voted against the
bill, but
      were overwhelmed by the Republican majority. A Tribune analysis
found
      that Democrats were between four and five times more likely to
receive
      substantial campaign donations from government employee unions than
      were Republicans. But UPEA maintains it gives more Republican money
      than other unions.
          The Utah Education Association (UEA,) which joined other unions
in
      challenging the law in court, also reported reduced political
spending this
      year. But spokesman Jeff Sprole said the drop -- from $73,523 in
1999
      to $55,515 this year -- was unrelated to HB179.
          However, contributions from members to the union's political
fund are
      up 11 percent -- an increase he ascribed to anger over the new
payroll
      deduction ban.
          Overall, political action committee spending this year in Utah
amounts
      to $881,000, off just $5,000 from two years ago. Leavitt's "special
      projects committee" was the biggest spender, at $423,373, followed
by
      the UEA and the Utah Association of Realtors, $53,511.
          Political spending by corporations was down significantly --
$297,219
      so far this year, compared with $461,215 during the same period in
      1999. The top spending corporations were Huntsman Corp. companies,
      $25,000; Micron Technology, $23,232, and Delta Air Lines, $21,984.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: charles hardy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: [UTGOA] URGENT! Special Session Alert! CALL NOW!!
Date: 26 Sep 2001 00:48:45 -0600

Additional info and perspective on the special session from UTGOA.

----------------
Charles Hardy
<[e-mail]>

--------- Forwarded message ----------
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

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Special Session Alert!

It appears that our Special Legislative Session on Redistricting has been

"hijacked" by enemies of liberty and our American system of government.

The Redistricting Session is supposed to be ONLY for redistricting - not
for passing bad bills without public notice.  If these bills were so
important, they should have been considered during the regular session
when
there was an opportunity for public input and reasoned
consideration.  Rushing a bill through both chambers of the legislature
in
one day, without any advance notice, committee review, or opportunity for

public input is a recipe for terrible legislation.  Don't let your
legislators get away with it!

There are several bad bills that deserve your attention.  Because not all

bills have been made public, some of our information is somewhat sketchy,

and we obviously can't verify the content of bills we can't see.

SENATE PHONE - 538-1035
HOUSE PHONE - 538-1029
SENATE FAX  [phone] (R)  538-1449 (D)
HOUSE FAX [phone] (R)  538-9505 (D)

Here's what we know right now:

1. Apparently at Governor Leavitt's request, the Senate will most likely
be
considering a bill to mandate open primaries.  We do not have bill
language
or a sponsor for this bill yet.

This bill is apparently an attempt to undo the resolution calling for
closed Republican primaries, adopted by elected delegates at this year's
Republican State Convention.  Since no other parties have primaries, open

primaries guarantee that non-Republicans will have as much say in
choosing
Republican candidates as Republicans do.

Whatever you think of Republicans, Republican candidates should be chosen

by members of their own party - and not by members of other parties.

Please ask your Senator and Representative to OPPOSE any proposal to
mandate open primaries.


2. SB 2008 - Peace Officer Status During Olympics - Hillyard - OPPOSE
http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2001S2/bills/sbillint/sb2008.htm

Call it the 2002 Olympic Police State Act.  This bill gives federal law
enforcement officers and out of state law enforcement officers full and
complete peace officer status for the duration of the Olympics so long as

they're acting "in connection with the games".  Federal agents will not
have to notify or consult with state or county law enforcement.

In other words, BATF agents can stop you for having a broken tail light,
search your car, seize your gun, and charge you with a federal firearms
offense for possession of a firearm in a "gun free" school zone - and
your
local sheriff doesn't even have to know about it.

In addition, the bill grants full law enforcement authority to
out-of-state
law enforcement agents working under the jurisdiction of the Olympic
Public
Safety Command.

Please call your Senator and Representative and insist that they OPPOSE
SB
2008.  Please also express your displeasure to Sen. Hillyard.


SB 2007 - Workers Compensation Amendments for Out of State Public Safety
Officers During the Olympics - Evans - OPPOSE
http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2001S2/bills/sbillint/sb2007.htm

This is a companion to SB 2008.  It provides for Utah funded workers
compensation for out of state law enforcement officers providing public
safety services in Utah during the Olympics.  It also provides liability
protection and indemnification.

In other words, if the hypothetical BATF agent in the above illustration
"feels threatened" and shoots you, you won't even be able to sue.  This
will also provide indemnification for any other civil rights abuses
committed by non-Utahns in conjunction with the Olympics.

Please call your Senator and Representative and insist that they OPPOSE
SB
2007.


3. HB 2004 - Certification of Primary Voting Requirements by Political
Parties - Pace - OPPOSE
http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2001S2/bills/hbillint/hb2004.htm

This innocuous looking bill is deceptively dangerous.  It proposes to
change the date that political parties must file their rules for primary
elections from March 1 to May 13.  After all, what's the big deal about
changing a date?

This is actually another attempt to circumvent the decision of the
Republican delegates to restrict the Republican Primary to Republicans.
By
moving back the date to certify election procedures, Gov. Leavitt, and
other advocates of letting Democrats choose Republican candidates, will
get
another chance to try to restore open primaries at the 2002 Republican
State Convention.

Please call your Representative and Senator and insist that they OPPOSE
HB
2004.


4. SB 2009 - Criminal Penalties for Riots and False Alarms - Hillyard -
OPPOSE
http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2001S2/bills/sbillint/sb2009.htm

This bill takes an extremely bad law and makes it even worse by
increasing
the penalties.  The existing law says that if you assemble with two or
more
people in a "tumultuous" manner that "creates a substantial risk of
public
alarm", and you are carrying a firearm (no exclusion for lawful concealed

carry that we can find), you are guilty of a felony.  If you're not
carrying a firearm, it's currently a Class B misdemeanor; the bill will
change this to a Class A misdemeanor.

In other words, if you and some other concealed carry permittees gather
to
protest restrictions on gun rights, and your presence frightens a few
members of Utahns Against Gun Violence, you're guilty of a felony, you'll

spend time in prison, and you'll lose your gun rights forever.

This is ALREADY law.  It needs to be repealed, not to have its penalties
increased.  Vague laws are unconstitutional too.


We expect to see more bad bills introduced as the special sessions
progress, so please stay tuned.

REMEMBER!  IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CALL YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS
IMMEDIATELY!  By the end of today it will likely be too late!

Please also call Senate President Al Mansell (538-1035) and Speaker Marty

Stephens (538-1930) and let them know that Redistricting Sessions should
be
for Redistricting ONLY - and that you are adamantly opposed to
consideration of other matters.  Also remind them that you oppose giving
anti-gun Democrats any special consideration when it comes to
redistricting.  The reason Democrats don't win many seats in Utah isn't
because Republicans are "mean"; it's because most Democrats oppose gun
rights!

Utah Gun Owners Alliance will be closed Thursday, but we will attempt to
let you know the fate of these bills on Friday.

PLEASE CALL NOW!  Thanks!

Copyright 2001, Utah Gun Owners Alliance, Inc. and Sarah Thompson
PO Box 1185
Sandy, UT 84091
801-566-1625
http://www.utgoa.org
[e-mail]

PLEASE SUPPORT UTAH GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE!  JOIN US TODAY!

Did someone forward this to you?  Please SUBSCRIBE NOW!  That way you'll
receive our FREE alerts as soon as they're released.  During the
legislative session, we send urgent, time limited alerts.  Don't risk
missing important information because someone else neglected to forward
important information.  Our alerts are low volume and average less than
one
alert per day.

To subscribe to the UTGOA list, send a blank email to
[e-mail] or use the form on our web site,
http://www.utgoa.org. For more information, see
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/UTGOA.

Utah Gun Owners Alliance is completely dependent on your generosity to
cover our operating costs.  Please consider joining us or sending a
donation.  Membership information is at:
http://www.utgoa.org/pages/join.html  Donations may be sent to: PO Box
1185, Sandy, UT 84091  Checks should be made payable to Utah Gun Owners
Alliance, Inc. or UTGOA.  Thank for your support!

UTGOA is written and distributed by, Utah Gun Owners Alliance, Inc.
www.utgoa.org, and Sarah Thompson, M.D.  All information contained in
these
alerts is the responsibility of the author, unless otherwise attributed.

Permission is granted for distribution of these alerts so long as no
changes are made, UTGOA is clearly credited, and this message is left
intact.

Archives of the UTGOA alerts can be found at:
http://www.utgoa.org/cgi-bin/alerts

Utah Gun Owners Alliance, Inc. is a Utah non-profit corporation.


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sign sticks at rallies
Date: 26 Sep 2001 11:52:26 -0600

While cropped out of the picture at the URL below, Tuesday's
Salt Lake Tribune showed Utah Democrats at a rally on the
Utah State Capitol grounds carrying signs with sticks.
Please see the original article and save it if you have
it. With this precedent gun rights activists, Libertarians,
religious rights activists, and the like need no longer
carry signs at demonstrations absent the aid of sticks.
Or will the state police exercise blatant selective "law"
enforcement? If so, this calls for civil rights and RICO
lawsuits.

Scott

http://www.sltrib.com/2001/sep/09252001/utah/134934.htm

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Bergeson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: A pilot's solution
Date: 28 Sep 2001 18:03:04 -0600

Forward to any pilots you know.

-----
Fraternal Brothers and Sisters,

My name is John Burnett. I am a DC-10 Captain for FedEx. I am also a
Police Officer for the Memphis Police Department.

My purpose in writing this is to share some of my thoughts regarding
actions a pilot might consider when faced with a modern-day hijacker.
These thoughts are "outside-the-box" when it comes to the way we've
all been trained. Neither the FAA or our companies will suggest any
of these techniques or implement them as a part of our normal
training cycles. They couldn't for fear of lawsuits.

I am distributing this via e-mail to buddies I've flown with. I'm
asking them to send it to their circle of friends within the industry,
and for you to send it to yours. I know most of us have e-mail, and
I hope this reaches the next to face the horror of some religious
fanatic onboard.

We have all had "training" in what to do in case of a hijacking; try
to keep the hijacker calm, make him think you're doing what he wants,
take him wherever he wants to go, etc., etc., etc. Save your passengers,
your crew, and your aircraft.

In an emergency, you will revert to that training. When our unfortunate
peers were faced with the screams of the Flight Attendants and hijacker's
demands to open the cockpit door, their training probably made them open
the door. When the fanatics made demands, their training told them to
comply as best they could. I can only wonder what their thoughts were as
they left the cockpit and were tied up in the back of the plane; what
they thought as they descended over New York.. I hope the fanatics had
to kill them in their seats and drag their dead bodies out of the cockpit.
But, I bet they did as they were trained to do..

As you look back over recent hijackings, FedEx, Egypt Air, and now
the September 11th hijackings, you see a perpetrator who, for one
reason or another wants to take over the airplane and kill himself.
Each of these hijackers, except for the FedEx incident, were
successful. They took over the airplane and killed everyone onboard.

If you're following the news programs today, you hear a lot about how
we could let these hijackers learn to fly. You would think if knowing
how to fly would guarantee a successful hijacking, Auburn Calloway
(the FedEx hijacker) would have been a hijacker success story. He was
a Navy pilot, a martial arts student, a fellow FedEx crewmember, and
he took all the weapons he needed: hammers, knives and a spear gun.
He didn't have to overcome any Flight Attendants or demand they open
the cockpit door. He just went back to his bag, took out his hammer
came back into the cockpit and started crushing skulls.

The crewmembers on that flight didn't worry about Flight Attendants,
they didn't worry about passengers. All three pilots left the cockpit
and fought a hand-to-hand, life-or-death battle.

To survive today's hijacker, you cannot worry about your passengers;
you cannot worry about your Flight Attendants. You must develop a
mind-set that everyone onboard - including yourself - is already
dead. Because, if the hijacker is successful in taking over your
airplane, not only you, your crew, your passengers and your aircraft
are lost, but thousands on the ground are at risk.

One of the reasons the FedEx crew survived, is the extraordinary
actions of the co-pilot. Although he had brain injury, the co-pilot
took the DC-10 and immediately executed a half-roll. This maneuver
took the hijacker off his feet as the Captain and S/O were struggling
with him. During a point in the maneuver, the hijacker, Captain and
S/O were thrown back behind the cockpit door. When he righted the
airplane, the F/O then left his seat and joined the fight in the
galley area of the plane. It was only after the Captain determined
the hijacker was subdued, he returned to the cockpit and flew the
airplane to landing.

Very few of us have had to confront true evil. Fewer still have
seriously considered taking the life of another human being. I
believe this is the reason the FedEx crew did not kill their
attacker. The crew's heroism that day is beyond belief and any action
that leads to a safe landing and recovery cannot be argued with. But,
when the Captain left the F/O and S/O, thinking the situation was
under control, he was mistaken. The F/O and S/O had sustained
serious, life-threatening injuries. The hijacker had not. As the
Captain flew the aircraft, the hijacker, who had surrendered, began
the fight anew. As the airplane landed, the hijacker was just moments
away from overcoming the two crewmembers.

I mention this for your consideration. I would suggest that you make
the conscious decision to kill anyone who tries to take your airplane
from you. Today we are at war. The hijacker who comes through your
cockpit door is going to kill you and everyone onboard.

So, how do you do that? What weapons are available to us as pilots?

The intercom.

Command that all men come forward and fight with the hijackers. You
have many able-bodied men onboard. They are sitting in shock not
knowing what to do. Command they come forward and help you kill your
attackers. And, they will come.

The airplane itself.

Get the hijackers off their feet. Go into an immediate dive to float
them to the ceiling. Then execute a 6G positive maneuver and hope
they hit their head or break their back as they hit the floor, galley
shelf, etc.

Dump the cabin - maybe one of the hijackers has a head cold.

Pull the fire handles, shut the start levers and turn the fuel valves
off. If you lose the battle, at least the airplane won't be used as
a guided missile on a kamikaze mission. With luck, maybe these guys
didn't learn how to do an in-flight restart. Then leave the cockpit -
all of you, and kill your attackers - don't believe it when they
surrender - don't be nice to them - KILL THEM.

Flare Gun

If your airplane has one, the Captain might consider making sure it's
loaded and secured next to his bag. I can think of nothing more
satisfying than watching a ball of burning phosphorous embedded into
a fanatic's gut, burning its way through him.

The crash-axe.

I would suggest you have your co-pilot take it from its holder and
secure it next to him so he has it immediately available. Makes an
excellent skull crusher.

Your flashlight.

The FAA used to require a 2 cell. A 3 cell Mag-Light makes an
excellent weapon. If your maneuvers have the hijackers on the floor
writhing in pain, crush their skulls with it.

Your stolen hotel bic pen.

Drive it into an attacker's eye, ear, throat, or into the area just
under the jaw bone. That's a particular interesting place to drive
it, because when he opens his mouth to scream, you can read "Hyatt"
sticking there.

Your hand and fingers

Drive your fingers into his eyes and try to feel your fingernails
scrape the back of his eye sockets. Scoop the eyeballs out. It will
confuse the hell out of him when he finds himself looking at his
shoes as they dangle there on the ocular nerves.

Your teeth.

Remember Hannabal Lecter. Eat a nose, a cheek, or a finger. And keep
eating. Attack with all viciousness. A piranha is a small fish, but
it's greatly feared. A hijacker is not expecting you to eat him and
it might make him forget why he got on your airplane to begin with.
It will, at least, impress his buddies.

Now here's my wish-list of things the FAA could do to help,
especially in this time of war.

Arm the Captain

The battle is not going to require any long shots and a small
revolver would be a good choice. It would hold off the attackers long
enough for you to disable your aircraft. If the attackers claimed the
red package they were holding was a bomb, I'd shoot out the door
glass and hope the door would be ripped out and the hijacker and his
package would be sucked out. And hey, if I got sucked out with him,
I'd try to fly myself to the hijacker look in his face and laugh at
him all the way to the ground.

Invite the local Police to jumpseat

Police are always looking for something free. Donut shops used
to be a favorite target for robbers - until they started giving
donuts to the Police. Robbers don't rob donut shops anymore.

I would suggest each Police Department send the FAA a list
of the best shots on the department and those guys and their guns
would be welcome on my airplane. Fill every vacant seat with armed
Police - give them a donut - and tell them to shoot anyone who gives
your Flight Attendant any shit.

Stop this silly no-knife rule.

Make it public. Tell the public they're welcome to bring their pocket
knives onboard. Then everyone will bring them. When you make your
intercom call for help, you'll have a dozen or more knife wielding
helpers trying to make sure their new Gerber tastes fanatics blood.
There are even a few of them who'd want to keep ears as souvenirs.

Law enforcement agencies are all aware there are copy-cat criminals
and fanatics. We have a number of loony fanatical hate-groups here in
the USA: ALF, PETA, KKK, Army of God, Anti-abortionists, and the list
goes on. It doesn't matter the size of your airplane. Right now, as I
write this, there is an anti-abortionist escapee here in the Memphis
area. He's seen what happened at the World Trade Center. A small
commuter plane would do a great job on an abortion clinic, or on an
animal research facility, or on a local synagogue, mosque, etc.,
etc., etc.....

None of us is immune. Take some time and consider your actions if
this event should ever happen to you.

My prayer is none of you ever have to face this kind of decision.

Best of luck to you, and may God Bless

John Burnett

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