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From: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com (n64-digest)
To: n64-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: n64-digest V1 #1035
Reply-To: n64-digest
Sender: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-n64-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
n64-digest Friday, December 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1035
Re: [N64] DK help needed
RE: [N64] grafix
Re: [N64] RE: n64-Warped Gaming Sensibilities
Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] The Thing with Expansion pack
Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
Re: [N64] DK help needed
Re: [N64] RE: n64-Warped Gaming Sensibilities
Re: [N64] historical signifigance
Re: [N64] grafix
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] maps
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:33:55 EST
From: Nutz4n64@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] DK help needed
In a message dated 12/10/99 9:18:21 AM Central Standard Time,
alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au writes:
<< I'm not saying I don't like exploration. Games like the original Legend of
Zelda or Metroid were great fun. But grabbing a bunch of elements from
different games and throwing them together doesn't make a good game. How can
you race and explore at the same time? Non-linear is good but that doesn't
mean cram a bunch of objectives randomly into a level like Banjo. Mario64's
levels are non-linear but they are structured in a logical way. >>
Personally, I think that the best thing about Mario's levels is that you can
replay them. But, I think it was more fun to explore BK's levels instead of
having them tell you what your objectives are at the beginning. There were
some stars from Mario where you had to explore a lot more, but in my opinion,
it was more fun searching. Plus, just because BK's gameplay isn't as
logically structured, you had a screen for looking up what you did and didn't
collect. The objectives weren't too hard to search out either. Find a
switch or someone to aid in a problem, and try it out. It was a good
technique. And it was cool to interact with others.
- -Eric-
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:34:51 -0600
From: John Goelzer <johng@engberganderson.com>
Subject: RE: [N64] grafix
Yeah, and if enough of you low-rez junkies make your preferences known to
developers, I'm sure they could in the future use intentionally
low-resolution, pixellated textures, models with lower polygon counts and
reduce the quality of their rendering engine such that you constantly see
the "seams" where the edges of model surfaces meet up. Then we could have a
few N64 titles that look almost as crappy as practically every PSX title...
great...
JG
PS - I gotta admit that Tony Hawk Skateboarding on the PSX is very pretty,
though. This is, however, a glaring exception rather than the rule on the
PSX.
> -----Original Message-----
>
> The 64 can do the gritty thing to just take a look at Body
> Harvest and
> Hybrid Heaven.
>
>
> >For certain types of games or certain 'atmospheres', I think
> the PSX is
> >better suited than the n64. For example, MGS was best for
> the psx, not
> >only
> >because of the cd format, but the texture variety gave the
> game a 'gritty'
> >look that I think wouldn't have been as convincing on the
> N64. Or maybe
> >it's just me. :)
> >
> >Elliot
> >
> >
> >Alright. I'll probably be eaten alive by saying this, but
> I've always
> >thought that PSX did have better graphics. That may be my
> opinion, but I
> >guess it's another way of saying that I don't care too much
> about graphics.
> >-Eric-
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:42:33 EST
From: Nutz4n64@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] RE: n64-Warped Gaming Sensibilities
In a message dated 12/10/99 10:36:04 AM Central Standard Time,
pika25chu@xoommail.com writes:
<< > Developers need to look at why they are putting things in games instead
of
> superficially duplicating Miyamoto's efforts. Having a complex overworld
in
> a suposed action game like Banjo just makes it cumbersome. They need to
> prioritize one thing that the holds the game together. The closest thing
to
> a paradigm in Banjo is the collection of jigsaws. WHen you turn on the
game
> you want to go the levels so you can overcome the obstacles and get the
> jigsaws. Their baroque overworld gets in the way. If they want to have a
big
> overworld, they need to have a different paradigm like progressing from
one
> area to the next, a la Super Metroid.
I was reffering to zelda 64. the over world in bk did get in the way since
other than a few hidden jiggies and the note doors it was useless, your
right on
that one, they could have worked the over world better. Lets hope they
perfected it for tooie! >>
I think that BK's overworld put more into the imagination. It was fun in
itself. I don't understand why people had such a problem with it.
- -Eric-
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:36:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Sutcliffe <jonathansutcliffe@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
FF3 was the greatest of all the FF games. If you
don't like it, then DON'T PLAY IT.
=====
May the Force be with you!
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:07:31 -0800
From: Charles Baynes <pika25chu@xoommail.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
TreyTable@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-12-10 13:12:28 EST, you write:
>
> > now that you mention it......haha just kidding. I think story line is very
> > important in some cases. where would a game like zelda64 be without an
> > involved plot?
>
> I didn't know Zelda 64 had an involved plot. Find the stones, get the
> medallions, go fishing, get killed by cucoos, fight ganon, go fishing some
> more, ride the horsey. go fishing some more.
>
> I'm not downplaying Zelda 64, it is still the best game ever, but it ain't no
> (fill in favourite author).
>
> Dave
ok. stop it with the book references already, i didnt mean like a book anyway.
and i thought the plot for zelda 64 was pretty good
>
> [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ]
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>
--Pika25chu--
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:10:18 -0800
From: Charles Baynes <pika25chu@xoommail.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
TreyTable@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-12-10 13:57:38 EST, you write:
>
> > I forgot to say, in action games, even the character designs are
> > unimportant. After playing Street Fighter2 for the thousandth time you no
> > longer care that the spinning bird kick let's you see Chun Li's underwear,
> > or that E Honda makes a stupid noise when he does the headbutt: You see the
> > moves in terms of their priority, range, speed, damage. You just see the
> > rules of the game. You should be able to strip everything away from a game
> > and still enjoy it.
> >
>
> I have to disagree. Would SF2 be what it is today if Capcom thought the way
> you did? Who needs character designs, stick figures with the same moves get
> the job done. Sure man. sure
Thank you dave(for once haha just kidding)
>
> Dave
>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:04:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Rodriguez <jrod69er@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] The Thing with Expansion pack
Here is a link that tells you what the Expansion Pak
can do.
http://nintendo64.hotgames.com/features/hardware/expand.htm
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --- John Rodriguez <jrod69er@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> All this is true, but you forgot that there are
> many more uses for the RAM pak. First, of all it
> sounds to me that you totally forgot about sound.
> The
> Expansion Pak allows for larger amount of sound
> effects and allows for longer sound and music clips.
>
> It also allows for other special effects concernig
> graphics, such as spectacular lighting and particle
> (like smoke or fire)effects. It also allows for a
> larger amount of colors, richer colors, and more
> textures with a higher frame rate and smoother
> animation.
> As for DK64, the RAM Pak was used for a higher
> number of textures, bigger worlds, and the most
> spectacular lighting effects ever seen. It was also
> used for more animations for each character and more
> moves. In Zelda Gaiden, all I know is that the
> reason
> for the Pak is so that they can have more objects
> and
> animations on the screen at one time. There is
> going
> to be more happening on the screen. As you can see
> in
> the latest screenshots of Gaiden the enviroments
> look
> more lively and vivid due to the fact that there are
> more objects on the screen. That's the main reason
> that the developers are using it for. Nintendo
> thinks
> of other or better ways of using the peripheral than
> just improving graphics with Hi-Rez Modes (as if
> their
> graphics didn't look exceptional already).
> J. Rodriguez
>
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- Dexter Sy <karens@smartt.com> wrote:
> > Ok, a lot of comments on expansion pack. but let
> me
> > just clarify things.
> >
> > A game that supports RAM expansion doesnt mean it
> > will arrive with better graphics.
> > I think we were spoiled by Acclaim which used it
> for
> > high-resolution, high texture
> > games. The RAM expansion is just that, it adds 4
> > extra megs to the N64's main 4 meg
> > meory, totalling to 8 megs.
> >
> > Wih this extra memory, developers can choose to
> > triple buffer their games, (which
> > essentially means storing 2 frames of data in the
> > memory before it is drawn on
> > screen). Almost all the graphics you see in games
> > are double buffered, meaning the
> > cpu keeps one frame of the animation in memory at
> > all times. in essence, what
> > you're seeing on screen isn't what the cpu is
> > drawing because as you see say, mario
> > jumping, the cpu already has the second frame of
> > animation in memory ready to throw
> > on screen, while it is receiving information from
> > the controller and is in the
> > process of drawing the third frame. This happens
> in
> > microseconds so you don't notice
> > it. after all, most 2-D games supports 15 to 20
> fps.
> > So what is the deal with
> > triple buffering? well, this just means the cpu
> > puts out three frames of
> > animation-- the first one is the one you see, the
> > second and third and stored in
> > memory and it is drawing the fouth. Like REAL
> AUDIO
> > or REAL VIDEO's buffering
> > modes, the cpu essentially gives itself a running
> > start before it starts displaying
> > stuff on screen, in the case of triple buffering,
> > its got a 3 frame headstart. What
> > this ultimately achives is the cpu don't have to
> > work like mad to throw stuff on
> > screen. since it takes longer to get through the
> > amount of screens in the buffer,
> > the cpu can take more time to draw a frame of
> > animation, thus, making it a lot
> > easier to draw in high resolution. High res
> > graphics also means high-res textures,
> > so the extra 4 megs of ram is used up pretty much
> > handling those two tasks.
> >
> > *note that when the n64 is running on high
> > resolution, it essentially works twice as
> > hard to display a 640X480 pixel frame as opposed
> to
> > the 320X240 pixel frame (i'm not
> > too sure on the normal res, so correct me if i'm
> > wrong)
> >
> > That of course is just O N E way of using the RAM
> > expansion. Developers may decide
> > to triple buffer a game and not run it on
> high-res,
> > which allows them to put more
> > polygons on screen, allows for smoother animation,
> > but doesn't guarantee no pop
> > ups. Unless the design team decides to spend all
> > the extra polygons they can draw
> > on making pop-up less noticable, pop up will
> occur.
> > I have a feeling RARE triple
> > buffered DK64, but used the extra polygons they
> can
> > draw on drawing more objects on
> > screen w/ higher polycounts and more special
> > effects...
> >
> > It looks as if Gaiden might do the opposite. Since
> > Ocarina of Time is known for
> > little pop ups, the Gaiden team will likely use
> the
> > extra polys they can draw to put
> > a little more polygons onscreen that Ocarina, but
> > also making sure the pop up
> > doesn't happen. From the screesn we see so far,
> it
> > is clear Gaiden is much more
> > polygon heavy than Ocarina. some of the areas are
> > just gorgeous and a lot bigger and
> > wider than the towns in ocarina.
> >
> > Phew...
> >
> > Dexter
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in
> one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message
> "unsubscribe n64" ]
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> ]
>
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:26:43 -0800
From: Charles Baynes <pika25chu@xoommail.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
Jonathan Sutcliffe wrote:
>
> FF3 was the greatest of all the FF games. If you
> don't like it, then DON'T PLAY IT.
Right on!
>
> =====
> May the Force be with you!
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
> Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> [ To quit the n64 mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe n64" ]
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>
--Pika25chu--
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:29:25 -0600
From: "Thraxen" <thraxen@ipa.net>
Subject: Re: [N64] DK help needed
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex <alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au>
To: n64@lists.xmission.com <n64@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [N64] DK help needed
>I'm not saying I don't like exploration. Games like the original Legend of
>Zelda or Metroid were great fun. But grabbing a bunch of elements from
>different games and throwing them together doesn't make a good game. How
can
>you race and explore at the same time? Non-linear is good but that doesn't
>mean cram a bunch of objectives randomly into a level like Banjo. Mario64's
>levels are non-linear but they are structured in a logical way.
Man, when will you give up? I can see where you may not like Banjo's 'hub'
world (even though I had no problem with it) and I can see where you may not
like Banjo's control (even though I thought it was dead on...except
swimming). But I'd say that both Mario64 and Banjo's levels are nearly
identical. They both have several objectives scattered throughout. Like
mario64 and the red coins is just like Banjo and the Jingos...there is no
difference at all.
Stryder
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:39:20 -0600
From: "Thraxen" <thraxen@ipa.net>
Subject: Re: [N64] RE: n64-Warped Gaming Sensibilities
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex <alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au>
To: n64@lists.xmission.com <n64@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [N64] RE: n64-Warped Gaming Sensibilities
>Developers need to look at why they are putting things in games instead of
>superficially duplicating Miyamoto's efforts. Having a complex overworld in
>a suposed action game like Banjo just makes it cumbersome. They need to
>prioritize one thing that the holds the game together. The closest thing to
>a paradigm in Banjo is the collection of jigsaws. WHen you turn on the game
>you want to go the levels so you can overcome the obstacles and get the
>jigsaws. Their baroque overworld gets in the way. If they want to have a
big
>overworld, they need to have a different paradigm like progressing from one
>area to the next, a la Super Metroid.
Think about it though. If it was set up like Super Metroid...that means all
the levels would be directly connected. Then you might have to spend a long
time trekking from of area to another. Especially if the game is comprised
of a lot of areas. I'd say that you would spend just as much time (if not
more) walking THROUGH several areas to get to another than you would spend
exiting one level then trekking through the overworld to get to another
area. I see no difference (improvement) in your suggestion.
Stryder
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:53:16 -0600
From: "Thraxen" <thraxen@ipa.net>
Subject: Re: [N64] historical signifigance
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex <alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au>
To: n64@lists.xmission.com <n64@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [N64] historical signifigance
>I agree with you; Quake is all about configurability and multiplay. Quake
is
>only good because of the Quake community. The people who made the add-ons,
>the skins, the servers, the people who play on the servers etc. Id has
>nothing to do with any of that. Id made an engine. The Quake community
>exists because of the following DOOM had. Once all the Doomers transfered
to
>Quake, there was enough critical mass to keep things snow-balling. I think
>DOOM was a much better designed game.
'All' they did was make an engine? First, the Quake games always have damn
good engines. Second...the best maps are usually Id maps. Third, Id needs
to be commended for making the game so mod-ready (although Unreal Tournament
is even better that Q3A for making mods). Fourth, they still care about
making a good game....look at the direction they went with Q3A. Instead of
having a standard FPS single player game, they decided to make the single
player the same as the deathmatches...except you play against bots. This is
a wonderful thing. I for one can't get online and play because I only have
a 56K modem...I would too much lag to play online. But now I can get the
same experience by playing against the bots. I can change the number of
bots I play and how smart they are (this is a another commendation for
Id...the bots are VERY good). It is also good practice for people who have
never played so they can get experience before venturing online. I also
love it because I have two roommates and they both have PCs. We have all
three of our PCs on a LAN...it was fun with just us three, but now it is
MANY times more fun since we can throw 5 or 6 bots onto the levels and have
an all out deathmatch. Also, we could not play some of the cool mods like
Capture the Flag because it would be stupid with only 3 people. But with
the bots...we can! IMO, Q3A is a VERY well designed game.
Stryder
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:57:10 EST
From: TreyTable@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] grafix
In a message dated 99-12-10 16:35:34 EST, you write:
> PS - I gotta admit that Tony Hawk Skateboarding on the PSX is very pretty,
> though. This is, however, a glaring exception rather than the rule on the
> PSX.
>
>
Gee, looking at my list it seems at least half of my psx games are an
exception to the rule as well, the only ones that I have where I noticed
large amouts of pixelization is in Duke Nukem: Total Meltdown and to to a
lesser extent Jet Moto. Then of course the other half are 2-D games.
Dave
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:56:01 -0600
From: "Thraxen" <thraxen@ipa.net>
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex <alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au>
To: n64@lists.xmission.com <n64@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
>>Why do you value story line so highly? Chess has no story. Do you like
>chess? Would you like it more if there was a story line, say if the White
>King caught his Queen playing with the Black King's Bishop?
Chess is lame. Sure, I have played every now and then...but I don't ever
recall looking forward to a great chess match after work. Although Archon
kicked ass.
Stryder
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:59:39 EST
From: TreyTable@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] Dave bashes FF?
In a message dated 99-12-10 17:07:06 EST, you write:
> FF3 was the greatest of all the FF games. If you
> don't like it, then DON'T PLAY IT.
i don't see how that can be so hard. nah, ff7 is the greatest. or maybe ff2,
but they all pale in comparison to chrono trigger & xenogears. i like to walk
away from people when they talk to me if what they say boreds me.
dave
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:02:26 -0600
From: "Thraxen" <thraxen@ipa.net>
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
> > If a game falls apart when the story is subtracted, then it is not a
good one.
Alex..I'd like you to explain how you would make a Zelda game without a
story at all.
Stryder
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:05:05 EST
From: TreyTable@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] maps
In a message dated 99-12-10 19:41:51 EST, you write:
> Think about it though. If it was set up like Super Metroid...that means all
> the levels would be directly connected. Then you might have to spend a
long
> time trekking from of area to another. Especially if the game is comprised
> of a lot of areas. I'd say that you would spend just as much time (if not
> more) walking THROUGH several areas to get to another than you would spend
> exiting one level then trekking through the overworld to get to another
> area. I see no difference (improvement) in your suggestion.
>
>
> Stryder
But if done well, like in Soul Reaver, then it wouldn't be as tedious as a
million hubs. Perhaps what Banjo-Kazooie needed really, and DK 64 too, is a
map (or auto map if yop may) to go along with the million hub design. Not
sure where you are, just consult the map. I bet if it had a map than the
million hub design would be less daunting because you could envision it in
2-D and learning it would be easier.
Dave
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:07:40 EST
From: TreyTable@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
In a message dated 99-12-10 20:04:52 EST, you write:
> Alex..I'd like you to explain how you would make a Zelda game without a
> story at all.
>
> Stryder
It'd be link playing chess against ganon. oh, that's a story too..
chess with zeldaesque pieces
dave
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:57:34 EST
From: Damian9133@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
1. Gameplay
2. Replay Value
3. Storyline (Depending on what genre of game)
4. Graphics
5. Sound
~Cy
In a message dated 12/10/99 6:19:02 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
u03cdw@abdn.ac.uk writes:
<< > I'm just wondering, since I see the sub topic coming up with diffrent
> titles, what list of elements do the thing a game need to be considered
good in
> order.I mean to me there only really two things a games needs to have for
me
> with is :
> 1.Gameplay
> 2.Graphics
> I hear others mentioning storyline. That's pretty cool too. I guess I
> would rank that number three. Followed by sound. So what do the rest of you
> think? Give me an ordered list of what you think a game needs to have to be
> considered above average.So again here's my list..
> 1.Gameplay
> 2.Graphics
> 3.Storyling, depending on game type
> 4.Sound >>
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:13:47 EST
From: Damian9133@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
Do you believe that Chrono Trigger would be the game that it was if all you
had to do was go in time and kill things and it made no point whatsoever as
long as you killed things?
~Cy
In a message dated 12/10/99 9:51:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au writes:
<< Why do you value story line so highly? Chess has no story. Do you like
chess? Would you like it more if there was a story line, say if the White
King caught his Queen playing with the Black King's Bishop? >>
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:09:56 -0800
From: Charles Baynes <pika25chu@xoommail.com>
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
"Thraxen" wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Alex <alexh@ivanhoe.starway.net.au>
> To: n64@lists.xmission.com <n64@lists.xmission.com>
> Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
>
>
> >>Why do you value story line so highly? Chess has no story. Do you like
> >chess? Would you like it more if there was a story line, say if the White
> >King caught his Queen playing with the Black King's Bishop?
>
> Chess is lame. Sure, I have played every now and then...but I don't ever
> recall looking forward to a great chess match after work. Although Archon
> kicked ass.
>
> Stryder
thanx for helping me out. oh and i remember archon, it was a cool game. I
played it on the nes
>
>
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>
--Pika25chu--
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:18:50 EST
From: TreyTable@aol.com
Subject: Re: [N64] Elements of good gaming
In a message dated 99-12-10 21:14:30 EST, you write:
> Do you believe that Chrono Trigger would be the game that it was if all you
> had to do was go in time and kill things and it made no point whatsoever
as
> long as you killed things?
>
> ~Cy
I thought what made Chrono Trigger great was a combination of the (1)
gameplay; from combineing Techs, to mostly visible enemies, to fighting in
the same area where you're moving about, to being able to walk away from
conversations, to the way the time travel was done, (2) graphics the tall
characters was a plus and the graphic style was far superior to any 16-Bit
Final Fantasy game, (3) the incedible music, and (4) the story and
interaction between the characters. But it's an RPG, and in RPGs story is
important, more than say a shooter or racing title. But for Chrono Trigger it
was how those four things came together.
Although Chrono Trigger also had replay value coming out of it's arse, what
with the Plus Game and the 13 different endings. But even if it didn't have
tose things it still wouldn't be any less of a game, those are just great
bonuses to an already perfect game.
Dave
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