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hist_text-digest        Sunday, August 19 2001        Volume 01 : Number 843



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rawhide lashing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rawhide lashing
-áááááá MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
-áááááá MtMan-List: Skip Brass grommets Do Loops with Fabric Strips
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets/oil cloth
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:00:14 -0500
From: "Douglas Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rawhide lashing

What about hoof glue?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 10:19 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: rawhide lashing


> Hallo the List,
>
> I just finished building a willow pack frame that I glued together and
lashed
> with rawhide. Anyone know of a good way to "waterproof" the rawhide? I
don't
> think they had varnish in the mountains, so I'm thinking mebbe bees wax
and
> bear grease...anything to keep the rawhide from getting loose. This might
be
> a good question for you, John Kramer.
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:24:48 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rawhide lashing

In a message dated 8/15/01 6:14:21 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< What about hoof glue? >>

Naw..... I thought about that and hide glue (near same stuff I think) but the
glue itself will dissolve in water. I know cause I used it to glue feathers
on my arrars once, and in a good rain they all fell off....

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:29:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

Anyone know how long brass grommets have been around? Sure takes me a long
time sewing a reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:01:08 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

Magpie
I have heard folks more authoritative them I say that an iron ring sewn into
a piece of canvas served as a grommet.  I suppose the tedious nature of
sewing grommets by hand caused the invention of the two piece, pressed brass
grommet as we know it.

The Webster's 1828 Dictionary has only 3 references to "grommet".  See
below.  The very word seems to be nautical in origin.
Lanney

GROMMET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in three
times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.

HANK, n.
1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie.
2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails; used
in the place of a grommet.
3.  A rope or withy for fastening a gate.


TRAV'ELER, n.
1.  One who travels in any way.  Job:31.
2.  One who visits foreign countries.
3.  In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round them,
forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets


> Anyone know how long brass grommets have been around? Sure takes me a long
> time sewing a reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:16:33 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

Magpie,

If you sew in a non chromed iron ring with tread to form the grommets, we
will call that good enough. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: History List <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:01 PM
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Brass grommets


> Magpie
> I have heard folks more authoritative them I say that an iron ring sewn
into
> a piece of canvas served as a grommet.  I suppose the tedious nature of
> sewing grommets by hand caused the invention of the two piece, pressed
brass
> grommet as we know it.
>
> The Webster's 1828 Dictionary has only 3 references to "grommet".  See
> below.  The very word seems to be nautical in origin.
> Lanney
>
> GROMMET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in three
> times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.
>
> HANK, n.
> 1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie.
> 2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails;
used
> in the place of a grommet.
> 3.  A rope or withy for fastening a gate.
>
>
> TRAV'ELER, n.
> 1.  One who travels in any way.  Job:31.
> 2.  One who visits foreign countries.
> 3.  In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round them,
> forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:29 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets
>
>
> > Anyone know how long brass grommets have been around? Sure takes me a
long
> > time sewing a reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....
> >
> > Ymos,
> > Magpie
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:08:28 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

Not long enough. Keep sewing pilgrim.

Capt. Lahti'

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 6:29 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets


> Anyone know how long brass grommets have been around? Sure takes me a long
> time sewing a reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:6:37 -0700
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

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Try a musket ball tied into the corner of the tarp with a thong...?
hardtack







If you sew in a non chromed iron ring with tread to form the grommets,
we

will call that good enough.







  I have heard folks more authoritative them I say that an iron ring
sewn

into

  a piece of canvas served as a grommet.



- --- Randal Bublitz

- --- [e-mail]

We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from
our Children

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Try a musket ball tied into the corner of the tarp with a thong...?  hardtack</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"> </DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you sew in a non chromed iron ring with tread to form the grommets, we</DIV>
<DIV>will call that good enough. <G></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> I have heard folks more authoritative them I say that an iron ring sewn</DIV>
<DIV>into</DIV>
<DIV>> a piece of canvas served as a grommet.
<P></P></FONT>
<P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


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Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:26:04 -0600
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

i have seen grommets, [one piece kind] on mochia's on saddles dated in the
1850's
late for our interests, but still note worthy.
Tom,  poison river party pilgrim, Timpanogos mess
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 7:29 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets


> Anyone know how long brass grommets have been around? Sure takes me a long
> time sewing a reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:05:25 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C12643.5A092E60
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The musket ball trick does work but it bunches up the cloth and makes it =
so it does not lay out as smooth and voluminous as it otherwise would. =
If your willing to live with that, I have a trick that may be better.

Without looking for a musket ball or small rock (which will also work) =
try this:

Tie a pinch of cloth right at the corner with a simple overhand knot. =
Fold that "corner" and knot back on itself towards the center of the =
tarp and tie another over hand knot. This puts much less strain on the =
cloth than the ball or pebble and is just as secure and adds no weigh.

If you want to do it in a "seaman" like manner, use a clove hitch =
instead of the over hand knot but it probably is not necessary. A clove =
hitch might be easier to untie if the line is stretched hard and wet. =
Try it for yourself to see which you prefer.=20

I prefer to sew in double tags of small line or webbing at corners and =
various handy locations around the tarp. That allows plenty of places to =
tie off to without bunching up the tarp. If your using an oil cloth such =
as Mark Baker shows how to make, do your sewing first and provide plenty =
of area at each sewn anchor point to take strain on the material as it =
is more susceptible to ripping regardless of what you do unless the =
material is quit heavy to start with. Then you will find that adding the =
linseed oil and pigment will make it too heavy to carry anyway.=20

For Magpie who has already made his "oil cloth", using the method I =
suggested that leaves out the musket ball or pebble is probably the best =
way to go if it is too late to sew in some ties. Have fun Magpie and =
will I see your new oil cloth at our Fall Hunt in Sept.? Hope you can =
make it.=20

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The musket ball trick does work but it =
bunches up=20
the cloth and makes it so it does not lay out as smooth and voluminous =
as it=20
otherwise would. If your willing to live with that, I have a trick that =
may be=20
better.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Without looking for a musket ball or =
small rock=20
(which will also work) try this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tie a pinch of cloth right at the =
corner with a=20
simple overhand knot. Fold that "corner" and knot back on itself towards =
the=20
center of the tarp and tie another over hand knot. This puts much less =
strain on=20
the cloth than the ball or pebble and is just as secure and adds no=20
weigh.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you want to do it in a "seaman" like =
manner, use=20
a clove hitch instead of the over hand knot but it probably is not =
necessary. A=20
clove hitch might be easier to untie if the line is stretched hard and =
wet. Try=20
it for yourself to see which you prefer. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I prefer to sew in double tags of small =
line or=20
webbing at corners and various handy locations around the tarp. That =
allows=20
plenty of places to tie off to without bunching up the tarp. If your =
using an=20
oil cloth such as Mark Baker shows how to make, do your sewing first and =
provide=20
plenty of area at each sewn anchor point to take strain on the material =
as it is=20
more susceptible to ripping regardless of what you do unless the =
material is=20
quit heavy to start with. Then you will find that adding the linseed oil =
and=20
pigment will make it too heavy to carry anyway. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For Magpie who has already made his =
"oil cloth",=20
using the method I suggested that leaves out the musket ball or pebble =
is=20
probably the best way to go if it is too late to sew in some ties. Have =
fun=20
Magpie and will I see your new oil cloth at our Fall Hunt in Sept.? Hope =
you can=20
make it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:30:38 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

In a message dated 8/15/01 7:18:02 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Not long enough. Keep sewing pilgrim.


Capt. Lahti'

 >>

Haaaaaa..... Actually, I gave up on the "grommet" idea, and now I'm just
sewing leather thongs (wangs?) on the bag so I can tie it to the pack...
works good, last long time.

Magpie

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:08:50 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Skip Brass grommets Do Loops with Fabric Strips

One idea that I have seen employed and employed successfully is to sew strips
of canvas (or whatever your tarp is made of) to the tarp to form a loop.
Slip the rope through that..also, it accepts almost any size rope that you
will be using!!!  Goes a lot faster that reinforcint grommet holes I can tell
you!!! One about every 24-36 inches should do.

- -C.Kent

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:22:04 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass grommets/oil cloth

In a message dated 8/16/01 11:03:46 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< For Magpie who has already made his "oil cloth", using the method I
suggested that leaves out the musket ball or pebble is probably the best way
to go if it is too late to sew in some ties. >>

With the oil cloth, I sewed in web, reinforced, loops at all four corners,
and two more midway on the two sides that meet the ground. I also put a loop
in at the center.... and to take the sag out of the fly,  the rear stake I
leave about three feet long, and just run a 3/8" rope from the one 6' front
pole, through the middle loop and tie it tight to the rear stake. Simple set
up, and can get by with four stakes, and one 6' pole....

I ran some tests on the sample piece of oil cloth I made. I got it to burn
with a match, but if I turned the piece flame up like a candle, the fire
would go out. The edge did glow like a cigarette though. I expected an
explosion from from all that I have heard! Mebbe it's all the iron oxide that
slows to burn rate....
I did a couple off poke /tear tests... The material cannot be hand torn at
the hem....it will tear rather easy on a raw edge. I tried poking a sharp
stick through the material and, with effort, could poke a hole....but then I
could poke a hole with canvas too. It's pretty strong.
The tarp is water proof! I ran a hard spray from a garden hose and could not
force water through the material...
Bottom line.....unless I'm missing something, this is a good, cheap,
primitive camp. If it comes unglued, Capt Lahti will be the first to let you
all know.....<G>
I remain,
Magpie




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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:35:57 -0600
From: "Daniel L. Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Brass grommets

<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body   ><div align='left'><font   ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Hey Lanney & Magpie,<BR>
<BR>
If you ever get to either coast look up one of<BR>
many sailing ship museums, they have lots of<BR>
"grommets" seen in the sails, most of the older<BR>
ones are like your post says Lanney; "a wooden<BR>
ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails;<BR>
used in the place of a grommet", let me add that<BR>
brass, iron and copper rings are also seen as<BR>
grommets. I was told depending on the owner of<BR>
the ship - would determine what material was used<BR>
(English, Spanish, Dutch & so on), of course we<BR>
the colonies where using the cheapest material<BR>
available because of our funds in the early years.<BR>
<BR>
At Valley Forge I have seen iron rings from<BR>
Officers tents that have been recovered in the<BR>
many digs, they would have been "whipped" in on<BR>
the material. <BR>
<BR>
Here's an interesting item about the grommets,<BR>
it's funny how modern tent makers today over-look<BR>
what many of the original makers did in beefing<BR>
up the corners and other areas where one would<BR>
find some of these rings. The extra material at<BR>
the corner is a half circle going from edge to<BR>
edge, not the 90 degree point we see today; that<BR>
point is pulling from one spot and will tear out<BR>
in time, where the rounded one is pulling all the<BR>
way around.<BR>
<BR>
Lanney have you heard from Buck lately !<BR>
<BR>
Later.<BR>
Concho.<BR>
- -----------------------<BR>
Magpie<BR>
I have heard folks more authoritative them I say<BR>
that an iron ring sewn into a piece of canvas<BR>
served as a grommet.  I suppose the tedious<BR>
nature of sewing grommets by hand caused the<BR>
invention of the two piece, pressed brass grommet<BR>
as we know it.<BR>
<BR>
The Webster's 1828 Dictionary has only 3<BR>
references to "grommet".  See<BR>
below.  The very word seems to be nautical in origin.<BR>
Lanney<BR>
<BR>
GROMMET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a<BR>
strand of rope laid in three times round; used to<BR>
fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.<BR>
<BR>
HANK, n.<BR>
1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied<BR>
together; a tie.<BR>
2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to<BR>
confine the stay-sails; used in the place of a<BR>
grommet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass grommets<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone know how long brass grommets have been<BR>
around? Sure takes me a long time sewing a<BR>
reinforcement around a canvas tie hole....<BR>
><BR>
> Ymos,<BR>
> Magpie<BR>
> ----------------------<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>

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