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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:44:42 -0500
From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood
> I have been making bows like the one on the second link below since 1955.
> The problem with this method of making a bow is it is not period correct.
> Chokecherry, Vinemaple, Yew, or board can be use to make horse bows backed
> with sinew that would be pc in most the area covered by the mountain men.
> That is a good rendition of bow making in the late 40s and early 50s. I
> would still say that Chokecherry would make a good pc bow in Washington.
>
>
>
Yep Walt, chokecherry will make a pretty good bow, as will any medium
hard wood to hard wood...if the bow is designed with the limitations of that
species of wood in mind. i.e brittleness, flexibility, properties of
compression
and tension, and a couple of other properties I can't think of at the
moment.
Board bows are not pc, in any way shape or form, however, using boards for
bowstaves is probably the easiest way to go for a first time bowyer. And no,
most folks wouldn't know a board bow from a stave bow if they were hit over
the head with it.
I only mentioned making bow from boards as a means for a beginer to get
started.
A first step to a 100% pc primitive bow.
Gotta walk before you can run.
J.D.
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Date: 16 Sep 2000 19:46:24 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: suitable wood
Back East we use to use "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and any "berry" type of tree for good bows, some of the other hardwoods would split if pulled to far when compare to those mention above.
Now in the West we have used again "Osage Orange", "Cherry" and "Hackberry" which seems to work very nicely being a straight grained wood. Have had a "Chokecherry" bow but the couple I have had where old and was afraid to put much strain on them like Walt does. A local bow maker - writer, Ken Wee uses chokecherry a lot, have taken several of his classes and he real braggs about its qualities.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:54:40 MDT
From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: transport for mt man
maybe just a few words from book ref. and from an ole horse, muleman,
reading joe meeks travels ,thought trip threw paradise,ect. there are alot
of referance s to mule s {rockymountain canarys}{rockymountain camals} being
used. horse needlles to cover. bull boats were used alot by differant men
coming down stream . bull boats tyed together carry pelts and goods and make
a steader ride instead of one bull boat. in montana fort rose and fort union
would be were easy traval with conoo
would end ether upstream or downstream. we can not forget the foot travel
which was done on a steady time lapes. a good mule is best for steady
everyday packing or riding. a old type breed of mule was not as fast as a
horse.a good mule will not hurt it self and most of the time knows when to
quit. a good horse will run untel it drops then you can run
the rest the of way to get help or save your skin.i ridding and packed both
the mule seems to keeps footing beter in mountains. you can make better time
with horse and not have side ack .As for eating willllll i like both to be
on the young side.both make pretty good steaks.don't forget alot of euro
countrys injoy horse meet as the indians did in slim times. and alot of
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Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:48:20 -0600
From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
Hello the Camp,
Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
using it.
Thanks,
Allen in Fort Hall country.
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:03:59 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
Allen,
Done both. Like it.
If the lead is too hot or doesn't have far enough to fall to the water you
won't get nice round shot with tails: but, mis-shapen flattened shrapnel.
I use a tablespoon with a bunch of holes (of an appropriate size) punched
in the bowl. It is not a pretty tool -- it is not a pretty load.
Rips and tears as it tumbles in flight; doesn't hold tight patterns over
distance. I use dry over powder and greasy scraps of buckskin for wadding,
when I need it I run a round ball down on top of a shot load.
John...
At 10:48 PM 9/16/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello the Camp,
>
>Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
>using it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Allen in Fort Hall country.
>
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:49:15 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
Hello the Camp,
Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
using it.
Thanks,
Allen in Fort Hall country.
Hi Allen,
I have made and used swan shot since the mid 70s.
Walt
ORMC 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:49:20 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis/gary
Hi Ponyrider,
Glad you could make it. Brain pressure always makes me want to head out.
Gary did a great job of representing the Metis. Good stuff. Quite the
blonde.
Walt
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:49:18 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: suitable wood
Another bow wood that should be common to Washington is Ash.
Walt
ORMC 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana
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Date: 17 Sep 2000 07:43:54 -0700
From: Buck Conner <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
On Sat, 16 September 2000, Allen Hall wrote:
>
> Hello the Camp,
>
> Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
> using it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen in Fort Hall country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have used swan shot for 30 years, have made it for close to that. Easiest I have found is to use a large serving spoon with holes drilled in the bowl (have to play around with size as the holes will grow smaller with lead gathering around the edges), heat will be another thing that you'll learn to control after a short period of time. Have tried using larger and smaller containers, even a cast iron frying pan(thinking we could make a large amount faster) with 5' angle iron legs on it, with shot passing through a screen half way down to the water bucket (a hell of a mess after a while), the best is due small amounts - it's easier.
The shot acts much different than round shot, lots of tearing, blood wounds, etc. - not like modern shot, poor patterns, touchy for distance, etc. If you want to be period correct use it, if you want game on a regular schedule - use round shot and carry a small bag of swan for the camp fire lectures. Goose Bay Workshops carries swan shot in small pillow ticking bags, if you just want to have some to carry that would be the fastest and easiest way to go.
Following our ancestors,
Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
______________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
before production".
________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:36:04 -0700
From: "Poorboy" <poorboy@ieway.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
Klahowya My Friends,
Lots of good general information on this topic. Can anyone offer a few more
specifics i.e.: a good size hole to start with in the spoon, a good distance
to start holding the spoon from the water, do you lock the spoon in one
position and ladle the hot led to the spoon, cautions have been offered as
to the best temperature of the lead, what is a good temperature range?
Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.
YMOS
PoorBoy
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:58:18 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
>
> Hello the Camp,
>
> Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it to
> using it. Thanks, Allen in Fort Hall country.
Allen, I do not use any special equipment to make so called swan shot
except the same lead ladle that I use to melt lead from the camp fire and
pour from into my round ball mold blocks. I free pour the molten lead over
the edge of the ladle into water. Remelt the bigger stuff.
I do not try to make up pounds and pounds of the stuff. I run just enough
for what I think are my immediate needs.
Ron Tewalt makes swan shot. He makes lots of it. Hand picks out the odd
ball stuff and ends up with a consistence mixture of sizes. Very nice
stuff.
My experience in using swan shot out of a rifle with a low powder charge on
grouse at close range has been pretty good in terms of results. The swan
shot works better out of my trade gun which is 24 gauge.
Walt
ORMC 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:54:01 -0500
From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swan Shot
> > Anyone out there have any experience with "swan shot"? From making it
to
> > using it.
> >
> >
> We have used swan shot for 30 years, have made it for close to that.
Easiest I have found is to use a large serving spoon with holes drilled in
the bowl (have to play around with size as the holes will grow smaller with
lead gathering around the edges), heat will be another thing that you'll
learn to control after a short period of time. Have tried using larger and
smaller containers, even a cast iron frying pan(thinking we could make a
large amount faster) with 5' angle iron legs on it, with shot passing
through a screen half way down to the water bucket (a hell of a mess after a
while), the best is due small amounts - it's easier.
>
> The shot acts much different than round shot, lots of tearing, blood
wounds, etc. - not like modern shot, poor patterns, touchy for distance,
etc. If you want to be period correct use it, if you want game on a regular
schedule - use round shot and carry a small bag of swan for the camp fire
lectures. Goose Bay Workshops carries swan shot in small pillow ticking
bags, if you just want to have some to carry that would be the fastest and
easiest way to go.
>
>
I have had fair luck making "swan droppings", swan shot was a size
of shot, not a type of shot, by punching holes in the bottom of a tin can. I
ended up
punching four more holes about half way up the side of the can to insert two
wires
to support a baffle with about half the number of holes as the bottom of the
can.
Got more good usable shot that way.
I suspended the can about 4-6 inches over the water and slowly poured HOT
lead
into the can. The best I could get was about 60-70% good shot to the balance
of flat
misshapen junk. Separating the good from the junk took more time than making
the rig and pouring the shot.
Next time, I think I'll use a coffee can with holes punched in the bottom
and filled with
hot coals, and drop the shot somewhere between 5 and 15 feet.
Nasty stuff to get hit with, and produces nasty wounds. Good game getter
though,
I haven't lost a single squirrel hit with this stuff. Had to shoot a couple
a second time,
but I had plenty of time to reload as the squirrels seemed to be in shock,
and didn't
run very far before hunkering down on a limb.
Anyone else experience anything like this.
How about loading the shot in paper cartridges? Might not be pc, but should
improve patterns quite a bit.
J.D.
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:03:34 MDT
From: "Terrance Luff" <havenotmetis@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: rendevous
ho camp!! hiverant metis are thinking of haveing a metis rondy. what is
the most poplar event in your rendevous area. would like to get from other
area s so we can look at something new. sure would like your input, you the
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:59:45 -0400
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935
Ratcliff wrote:
> The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park.
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:02:58 -0400
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Trade Chittenden 2 Vol. 1935
Oops! I hit "send" before adding my comment that the set on
Ebay just went for $98. That will buy lot's of other things
after getting the paperback version. Thanks for the tip!
Tom
tom roberts wrote:
> Ratcliff wrote:
>
> > The Chittenden set is available in paperback for about $25. The set is full of good stuff. Gen. Chittenden was in the Corps of Engineers and laid out the roads in Yellowstone Park".
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:27:18 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men
You aren't referring to Pumpelly's Pillar in Glacier
National Park, are you? That's by Two Medicine Lake
heading out to Dawson Pass. Either way, I still detest
commercial development since WE still have to scrabble
for a living ANYWAY.
=====
defstones
I refer to Pomp's Pillar located along the Yellowstone River in Montana. It
was a known landmark to the mountain men but it is best known for it's
history associated with Captain William A. Clark on July 25, 1806.
It would be a great place to hold a mountain man camp. I have reduced the
picture to a gif format set in 1-7. It is a good perspective and shows what
will be the polluted view, if erected. They can move the location a few
miles in either direction. They made their building move without the
required permits.
Walt
ORMC 1836-1837
Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana
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Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: beginnings of the mountain men
Thanks for your reply. have not been along that
stretch of the Yellowstone River yet. Will search out
the journals and read it again for the first time.
Hope you or others succeed in staging a camp for Metis
and Mountain Men.
> I refer to Pomp's Pillar located along the
> Yellowstone River in Montana. It
> was a known landmark to the mountain men but it is
> best known for it's
> history associated with Captain William A. Clark on
> July 25, 1806.
>
> It would be a great place to hold a mountain man
> camp. I have reduced the
> picture to a gif format set in 1-7. It is a good
> perspective and shows what
> will be the polluted view, if erected. They can
> move the location a few
> miles in either direction. They made their building
