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hist_text-digest         Tuesday, July 4 2000         Volume 01 : Number 584



In this issue:

-áááááá [none]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?
-áááááá MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?
-áááááá MtMan-List: When dit it end?
-áááááá MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: comments on several things
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: When dit it end?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles
-áááááá Re: [RE: MtMan-List: Patriot!]
-áááááá Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:27:07 EDT
From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]

GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST
PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT IS
TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS
INDEPENDENCE DAY.  EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE,
SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY
EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE
FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY!           "HAVE
YOU EVER WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 56 MEN WHO SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF
INDEPENDENCE?   FIVE SIGNERS WERE CAPTURED BY THE BRITISH AS TRAITORS, AND
TORTURED BEFOR THEY DIED.  TWELVE HAD THEIR HOMES RANSACKED AND BURNED.  TWO
LOST THEIR SONS SERVING IN THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY; ANOTHER HAD TWO SONS
CAPTURED.  NINE OF THE 56 FOUGHT AND DIED FROM WOUNDS OR HARDSHIPS OF THE
CONFLICT.  THEY SIGNED AND PLEDGED THEIR LIVES, THEIR FORTUNES, AND THEIR
SACRED HONOR.  WHAT KIND OF MEN WERE THEY?  24 WERE LAWYERS AND JURISTS. 11
WERE MERCHANTS, 9 WERE FARMERS AND LARGE PLANTATION OWNERS; MEN OF MEANS,
WELL EDUCATED.  BUT THEY SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE KNOWING FULL
WELL THAT THE PENALTY WOULD BE DEATH IF THEY WERE CAPTURED.  CARTER BRAXTON
OF VIRGINIA, A WEALTHY PLANTER AND TRADER, SAW HIS SHIPS SWEPT FROM THE SEAS
BY THE BRITISH NAVY. HE SOLD HIS HOME AND PROPERITIES TO PAY HIS DEBTS, AND
DIED IN RAGS.  THOMAS
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:52:22 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?

John,
There is one other reason for the 1840 cutoff date which is commonly used by
Rendevous organizers .....to keep Civil War reenactors from attending their
events.

The country was built on the fur trade, and the actual Fur Trade Era runs
from the late 1600's and the French, and culminates with the Rocky Mountain
fur traders.
There is a paradigm shift which happened around that time in clothing,
mechanization, social attitudes and other things.  The US became civilized, a
fact much lamented by the RMFT's who saw their way of life ending.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:57:58 -0700
From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle

Hello the List:
Have a question.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the EuroArms
1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle?  Have been looking in that direction based on
Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the
Kentucky Rifle of the period.  Can anyone recommend for or against this
rifle?  I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock sparker
that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to
harvest some meat.  Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck
thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the
woods and at the firing line.  Any help and/or recommendations will be most
appreciated.
[e-mail]
Thanks in advance for your time and advice.
Regards,
John Barber


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:05:41 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?

You can also add to the list of why 1840 was decided as the modern
rendezvous cutoff as far as choosing a nice round number, if 1850 were
chosen, the Mexican War would have a great impact on the vision of how we
interpret the RM fur trade today. it wasn't because traders didn't trade
and trappers didn't trap after 1840, it was because of the profound changes
in the mountain economy, the coming of the Army, the immigrants, the
missionarys and the gold seekers, all of which served to force the
establishment of more forts and posts on the frontier. This is what caused
the end of a free way of life we so admire and emulate. It was, after all
an end caused by their own actions.

B Dawg

>John,
>There is one other reason for the 1840 cutoff date which is commonly used by
>Rendevous organizers .....to keep Civil War reenactors from attending their
>events.
>
>The country was built on the fur trade, and the actual Fur Trade Era runs
>from the late 1600's and the French, and culminates with the Rocky Mountain
>fur traders.
>There is a paradigm shift which happened around that time in clothing,
>mechanization, social attitudes and other things.  The US became civilized, a
>fact much lamented by the RMFT's who saw their way of life ending.
>
>Dave Kanger
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM
Printing and Reproduction Services Manager
Northern Arizona University
Office of Public Affairs and Marketing
Creative Communications Department
Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011
ph. 520-523-6160   fax [phone]

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:44:44 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle

Sir,
If this rifle is like the one produced by "Navy Arms" then it is wrong. The
lock won't spark and the caliber is .58 mini. If it is .54 cal round ball
then you must find someone who own's one. If I were looking for an
inexpensive flinter I would ge a hold of "Caywood" and see what suit's you.
If you have an inkling for a realy good rifle get a look at some of the
custom makers in your area and start saving your money, you won't be sorry.
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Mountain Man List" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
>Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2000, 10:57 AM
>

>Hello the List:
>Have a question.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the EuroArms
>1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle?  Have been looking in that direction based on
>Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the
>Kentucky Rifle of the period.  Can anyone recommend for or against this
>rifle?  I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock sparker
>that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to
>harvest some meat.  Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck
>thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the
>woods and at the firing line.  Any help and/or recommendations will be most
>appreciated.
>[e-mail]
>Thanks in advance for your time and advice.
>Regards,
>John Barber
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:59:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end?

Hallo the List,

The Spring 2000 copy of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" addresses
this very question, with 'The Myth of the Silk Hat and the End of the
Rendezvous" by James A Hanson. A very good read and research paper.
I won't go into any long quotes but  "....there is some good evidence to
contradict that date "(1840 as being the last rendezvous)
"In 1841 beaver trappers gathered at what was then termed a rendezvous on the
Green River."
"Bill Hamilton left a lively account...gathering...1842"
....and...a "curious rendezvous" in 1843, Drummond and Sublette lead a large
party of sportemen, hunters, and old trappers and meet a dozen or so trappers
on the Sweetwater.

What I found fascinating was the "Importation of Beaver Pelts to England"
from Hudson's Bay, US and other Sources... A list from 1820 -1860

 1822 US&NWco. 65,652   HBC 59,847 (!)
 1840 US 975(!!)   HBC 55,431
 1860 US 28,0404   HBC 107,745(!!!)

Kinda makes you think they only wiped out the beaver is certain areas, and
even then they came back. I'd sure recommend subscribing to the Quarterly...

Ymos,
Magpie



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:10:42 -0600
From: "Terry R. Koenig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: When dit it end?

Fur trade historian Hiram Chittenden in his Vol. I pg. 3 of "American Fur
Trade of the Far West, " Univ. of Neb. Press 1986, pretty well firms up what
many have already noted on this topic.

"The fur trade of the Missouri valley began early in the eighteenth century,
but it did not assume large proportions until after the session of Louisiana
to the United States and the exploring expeditions of Lewis and Clark and
Pike. Its career thereafter continued practically unchecked until the tide
of western emigration set in, about 1843. The true period of the
trans-Mississippi fur trade therefore embraces the thirty-seven years from
1807 to 1843."

In the same volume in the authors preface (p. xxvii) Chittenden noted:

"In the year 1843 James Bridger, whose name will always be prominent in
annals of Western adventure, built a post on a tributary of Green River a
water of the Pacific Ocean, for the convenience of emigrants. It was the
first trading post beyond the Mississippi ever built for this purpose, and
its establishments marks the beginning of the era of emigration into the Far
West."

"These two landmarks - the return of Lewis and Clark and the founding of Ft.
Bridger - determine the limits of a distinct period in Western history."

Terry R. Koenig


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:19:00 -0700
From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle

Thanks.  But just what or who is "Caywood?"
Thanks.
Regards,
John Barber


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:48:31 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle

Take a look and see!

http://www.caywoodguns.com/

Nuthin' but the best!!!!!!

Frank

atthesea wrote:

> Thanks.  But just what or who is "Caywood?"
> Thanks.
> Regards,
> John Barber
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:50:57 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request

Saw the movie yesterday, pleasantly suprised at the movie.   My family
tradition tells me, that my Gaelic-Briton ancestors came here as `indentured
servants'.  On asking my grandfather if that was like an apprentice, he told
me that it was more like a slave.  Grandma said that the `spirits' roamed the
towns and countryside, rounding up stray men, women and children for the
colonies.  I found a book once (sorry, don't recall author or title), that
stated that the spirits were given bounties on each head brought to shipment.
 Also, that since this predated the british involvement in the African slave
trade, that ordinary merchant vessels were used and that the death rate was 3
out of 4 in passage.

Any suggestions on finding source material, books on the subject, or family
oral traditions to share, regarding the british involvement in de facto white
slavery, please respond.  [e-mail]

The only truly objectionable parts were the two drunken viewers `spittin' an'
arguin' across the aisle.  It seemed they bought tickets only to ridicule the
movie (and, American Independence).  They were foreigners- I won't mention
the nationality, since many good people have come from their homeland.
Suffice to say, I got a little hot (like baby sister on prom night).   We
took it outside towards the last 20 minutes, and there they remained.
Free speech is one thing,  but insults and mockery on about 60 other viewers
dime ( eight dollars, actually), and  on our most sacred national holiday-
my tolerance was lacking, I reckon.  However, teens working the theatre for
minimum wage didn't seem to mind, and several viewers thanked me.  Do you
think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and hostile
members in society?  Does every earnest affront to social gatherings have to
be handled with tact and discretion?  Were our forebears brutish and subject
to rash action, as politically correct notions suggest?  Penny fer yer
thoughts.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 16:14:12 EDT
From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw:

>From: "Jesse Huff" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Fw:
>Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:47:06 -0700
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: DAVID ALBAUGH <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>;
><[e-mail]>
>Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:14 AM
>Subject: Fwd:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <[e-mail]>
> > >Reply-To: [e-mail]
> > >To: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
>[e-mail],
> > >  [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail],
>[e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> > >[e-mail], [e-mail]
> > >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:27:07 EDT
> > >
> > >GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST
> > >PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT
>IS
> > >TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS
> > >INDEPENDENCE DAY.  EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR
>FREE,
> > >SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO
>PAY
> > >EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE
> > >FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY!
> > >"HAVE
> > >YOU EVER WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 56 MEN WHO SIGNED THE
>DECLARATION
>OF
> > >INDEPENDENCE?   FIVE SIGNERS WERE CAPTURED BY THE BRITISH AS TRAITORS,
>AND
> > >TORTURED BEFOR THEY DIED.  TWELVE HAD THEIR HOMES RANSACKED AND BURNED.
> > >TWO
> > >LOST THEIR SONS SERVING IN THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY; ANOTHER HAD TWO SONS
> > >CAPTURED.  NINE OF THE 56 FOUGHT AND DIED FROM WOUNDS OR HARDSHIPS OF
>THE
> > >CONFLICT.  THEY SIGNED AND PLEDGED THEIR LIVES, THEIR FORTUNES, AND
>THEIR
> > >SACRED HONOR.  WHAT KIND OF MEN WERE THEY?  24 WERE LAWYERS AND
>JURISTS.
>11
> > >WERE MERCHANTS, 9 WERE FARMERS AND LARGE PLANTATION OWNERS; MEN OF
>MEANS,
> > >WELL EDUCATED.  BUT THEY SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE KNOWING
> > >FULL
> > >WELL THAT THE PENALTY WOULD BE DEATH IF THEY WERE CAPTURED.  CARTER
>BRAXTON
> > >OF VIRGINIA, A WEALTHY PLANTER AND TRADER, SAW HIS SHIPS SWEPT FROM THE
> > >SEAS
> > >BY THE BRITISH NAVY. HE SOLD HIS HOME AND PROPERITIES TO PAY HIS DEBTS,
>AND
> > >DIED IN RAGS.  THOMAS MCKEAM WAS SO HOUNDED BY THE BRITISH THAT HE WAS
> > >FORCED TO MOVE HIS FAMILY ALMOST CONSTANTLY. HE SERVED IN THE CONGRESS
> > >WITHOUT PAY, AND HIS FAMILY WAS KEPT IN HIDING. HIS POSSESSIONS WERE
>TAKEN
> > >FROM HIM, AND POVERTY WAS HIS REWARD.  VANDALS OR SOLDIERS LOOTED THE
> > >PROPERTIES OF DILLERY, HALL, CLYMER, WALTON, GWINNETT, HEYWARD,
>RUTTLEDGE,
> > >AND MIDDLETON.  AT THE BATTLE OF YORKTOWN, THOMAS NELSON JR., NOTED
>THAT
> > >THE BRITISH GENERAL CORNWALLIS HAD TAKEN OVER THE NELSON HOME FOR HIS
> > >HEADQUARTERS.  NELSON QUIETLY URGED GENERAL WASHINGTON TO OPEN FIRE.
>THE
> > >HOME WAS DESTROYED, AND NELSON DIED BANKRUPT.  FRANCIS LEWIS HAD HIS
>HOME
> > >AND PROPERTIES DESTROYED. THE ENEMY JAILED HIS WIFE, AND SHE DIED
>WITHIN
>A
> > >FEW MONTHS.  JOHN HART WAS DRIVEN FROM HIS WIFE'S BEDSIDE AS SHE WAS
>DYING.
> > >  THEIR THIRTEEN CHILDREN FLED FOR THEIR LIVES. HIS FIELDS AND HIS
> > >GRISTMILL WERE LAID TO WASTE.  FOR MORE THAN A YEAR HE LIVED IN FORESTS
>AND
> > >CAVES, RETURNING TO HIS HOME TO FIND HIS WIFE DEAD AND HIS CHILDREN
> > >VANISHED.  A FEW WEEKS LATER HE DIED FROM EXHAUSTION AND A BROKEN
>HEART.
> > >NORRIS AND LIVINGSTON SUFFERED SIMILAR FATES.  SUCH WERE THE STORIES
>AND
> > >SACRIFICES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION.  THESE WERE NOT WILD-EYED,
> > >RABBLE-ROUSING RUFFIANS. THEY WERE SOFT-SPOKEN MEN OF MEANS AND
>EDUCATION.
> > >THEY HAD SECURITY, BUT THEY PLEDGED: "FOR THE SUPPORT OF THIS
>DECLARATION,
> > >WITH FIRM RELIANCE ON THE PROTECTION OF THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WE
>MUTUALLY
> > >PLEDGE TO EACH OTHER, OUR LIVES, OUR FORTUNES, AND OUR SACRED HONOR."
>THEY
> > >GAVE YOU AND ME A FREE AND INDEPENDENT AMERICA.  THE HISTORY BOOKS
>NEVER
> > >TOLD YOU ALOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.  WE DIDN'T
> > >FIGHT JUST THE BRITISH. WE WERE BRITISH SUBJECTS AT THAT TIME AND WE
>FOUGHT
> > >OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!  SOME OF US TAKE THESE LIBERTIES SO MUCH FOR
>GRANTED,
> > >BUT WE SHOULDN'T.  SO, TAKE A FEW MINUTES WHILE ENJOYING YOUR 4TH OF
>JULY
> > >HOLIDAY AND SILENTLY THANK THESE PATRIOTS.  IT'S NOT SO MUCH TO ASK FOR
>THE
> > >PRICE THEY PAID.  REMEMBER: FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!"  I WOULD ADD
>REMEMBER
> > >ALL THE VETS AND THEIR FAMILIES WHO HAVE PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR
>FREEDOM.
> > >SORRY ABOUT THE COMPUTER SLIP UP AND THE TWO POSTINGS.  YMHOS DAVID
>ALBAUGH
> > >    AUX ALIMENTS DE PAYS
> >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >--------------------
> > >Aux Aliments de Pays!
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:17:56 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request

 Do you  think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and
hostile
 members in society?

***********************

Absolutely not!!  Sometimes that is all that is understood.  If tact and
diplomacy fail, time to use other methods...

Ad Miller


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:23:20 +1200
From: "D J PAWLEY" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle

Giday the list from New Zealand ,John I can reccomend the Caywood Lock Ihave
been useing one on my Flinter for 5yrs target shooting as wellas deer
stalking ,all year down here,  to all on the list great reading .
keep your Powder Dry  Derek "Kiwi" Pawley
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ole B. Jensen <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, 4 July 2000 05:46
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle


>Sir,
>If this rifle is like the one produced by "Navy Arms" then it is wrong. The
>lock won't spark and the caliber is .58 mini. If it is .54 cal round ball
>then you must find someone who own's one. If I were looking for an
>inexpensive flinter I would ge a hold of "Caywood" and see what suit's you.
>If you have an inkling for a realy good rifle get a look at some of the
>custom makers in your area and start saving your money, you won't be sorry.
>Ole # 718
>----------
>>From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
>>To: "Mountain Man List" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle
>>Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2000, 10:57 AM
>>
>
>>Hello the List:
>>Have a question.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the
EuroArms
>>1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle?  Have been looking in that direction based on
>>Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the
>>Kentucky Rifle of the period.  Can anyone recommend for or against this
>>rifle?  I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock
sparker
>>that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to
>>harvest some meat.  Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck
>>thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the
>>woods and at the firing line.  Any help and/or recommendations will be
most
>>appreciated.
>>[e-mail]
>>Thanks in advance for your time and advice.
>>Regards,
>>John Barber
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:03:31 PDT
From: "Robert Thomson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: comments on several things

On the 1803 by Euroarms:

I have one.  It is a .54 not a .58 and it is 1000 percent better than the
old Navy Arms version.  I also know four other people that own them and say
the same things about them.

On the end of the Rocky Mountain trade:

I agree that most recognize 1840 as the end of the Rocky Mountain trade,
even though some folk continued to trap even into the early 1850's.
However, just because the Rocky Mountain system ended, did not mean that the
trade in general was over.  The Upper Missouri buffalo robe trade would
continue for nearly three decades (Fort Union closed in 1867) with the peak
not coming until the late 1840's-early 1850's.

On people talking in the theatre:

By all means use less civil means to get them to shut up.  I have always
found that a stern "Please shut up" usually works, but there are some that
need more encouragement.

Sincerely,
Robert

"Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union"
Charles Larpenteur, 1838

- ----
Robert Thomson
AMF Co
Fort Union

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:12:13 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle

John,   I owned one of the EuroArms Harpers Ferry Rifle, I bought it from
Cabella's Catalog.  A friend of mine with good credentials said it was a
fine example of the original, considering it was a factory made copy.  I
found it to be quite barrel heavy.  I couldn't seem to hit anything with
it, this may have been this particular gun- or me.  I had fun with it for
awhile, then sold it for what I paid for it.  Mine was a sturdy gun, and
fired well... I just had trouble with aiming it, granted I didn't work
with it much, trying loads, etc...  If you have any particular questions,
contact me off-list.   hardtack

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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:48:31 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request

Well, ya know...if a polite request isn't sufficient then you are probably
dealing with someone who might not hesitate to become very violent.
I guess the question each individual has to ask is how good am I at sizing up
strangers and how far am I willing to escalate the situation to make my point.

Frank


Addison Miller wrote:

>  Do you  think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and
> hostile
>  members in society?
>
> ***********************
>
> Absolutely not!!  Sometimes that is all that is understood.  If tact and
> diplomacy fail, time to use other methods...
>
> Ad Miller
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:20:54 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:

Here's another version of the same:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jacoby1.asp

At 11:27 AM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote:
>GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST
>PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT IS
>TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS
>INDEPENDENCE DAY.  EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE,
>SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY
>EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE
>FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY!          (snip)


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Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:21:30 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles

At 07:15 AM 7/1/00 -0700, Buck wrote:
>On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> > John,
> > Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by
> TWIGG in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side
> in 20ga. I........
> > Concho.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Concho,
>You talk to much, expected to see lots of stuff on list, everyone laying
>low for the long weekend ! Coming in from Utah last night traffic wasn't
>that bad going east or west. Let's keep our fingers crossed that everyone
>has a safe weekend.
>
>Later
>Buck Conner
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for the tip Concho.

Hey Buck,

Now that the cats out of the bag.

What do you want in trade?

I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions to
cure the ills of mind body and soul.

Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded ladies
of the night.

What is your pleasure?  I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in the
rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust.

Amen on that safe holiday wish for all.

John...


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit
the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms.  History teaches that all
conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have
prepared their own downfall by doing so.
         -- Hitler, April 11 1942, revealing the real agenda of "gun control"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:23:22 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request

T'was a nobler age when you could give such rapscallions the choice of=20
pistols or swords at dawn.

John...

At 05:17 PM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote:
>  Do you  think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil=
 and
>hostile
>  members in society?
>
>***********************

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 04:13:25 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When dit it end?

But the purpose of my post was to question the long-held idea espoused by
Hafen, Chittenden and others that the fur-trade era "ended" in the 1840s.  It
sounds like scholars such as James Hanson have also been questioning that
long-held assumption, and I figured it might be interesting to hear what some
or you all think about it.

I figured that some would confuse the concept of the "historical era" with
the period chosen for reenacting.  And that is understandable since this is a
reenactors' list.

What most historians try to keep in sight is the idea that eras are always
(ultimately) arbitrary and subject to question.  Thought that the notion of
the "fur-trade era" is due for some reassessment, although I'm not arguing
that your reenactment criteria should change.

jr sweet

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------------------------------

Date: 4 Jul 2000 06:49:39 -0700
From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles

On Sun, 02 July 2000, John Kramer wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote:
> > > John,
> > > Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by TWIGG in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side in 20ga. I........
> > > Concho.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Thanks for the tip Concho.
>
> Hey Buck,
>
> Now that the cats out of the bag.
>
> What do you want in trade?
>
> I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions to cure the ills of mind body and soul.
>
> Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded ladies  of the night.
>
> What is your pleasure?  I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in the rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust.
>
> Amen on that safe holiday wish for all.
>
> John...
- -------------------------------------------------------
John,

The two side by side flinters that Concho mentioned are keepers for now (you know how that goes), just picked up another side by side flint, Russ Hamn locks, 20ga., walnut wood, pretty plain - no checkering, very good to excellent cond. - good working gun. Before considering anything would like to take it out and see what it will do, pattern, etc. I'll let you know what I decide.

Over the years I've had "real keepers", that where traded for other "really good keepers", and somehow they just slipped away - like horse tradin'.


Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC.
"One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce"
     English            Spanish            French

 *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage*
                 & much, much more.
~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~
                                 Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: 4 Jul 00 10:08:11 EDT
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [RE: MtMan-List: Patriot!]

Just saw the movie with some historians I work with, most agreed it was b=
etter
than most things that Hollywood puts out. Kind of a take off on "Revoluti=
on"
story line with "Brave Heart" thrown in for the final scenes.

According to some Mark Baker was removed from the set, but according to n=
ew
issue of muzzleloader - Mark's story he had a good time. Frank House's na=
me
showed in the credit's but didn't see Mark's.

Saw many we know as back ground actors, have talked to several and have h=
eard
different stories to what happened to Baker ! Whatever, sometimes a hero =
- -
sometimes a ........ whatever ???

Concho.




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Date: 4 Jul 00 10:19:35 EDT
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles]

Hey I want in on this deal if there going to be a trade or sale on the la=
test
flint double. Keeper your butt, that's like the time you bought Old West =
Arms
supply of Sharps (10 or 12 guns), "they're keepers Concho".

Then one of the big boys come along and makes an offer and you let them g=
o,
for some crazy trade and cash. I know I only wanted one or two and this w=
as a
package deal......

Do you feel sorry for me yet, come on Buck - really feel sorry for me and=
 let
me be first, I do need a double flinter, John just wants to play with his=

nick-nacks for trade.

Concho.
________________________________________________________
> Hey Buck,
> =

> Now that the cats out of the bag.
> =

> What do you want in trade?
> =

> I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions=
 to
cure the ills of mind body and soul.
> =

> Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded lad=
ies =

of the night.
> =

> What is your pleasure?  I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in t=
he
rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust.
> =

> Amen on that safe holiday wish for all.
> =

> John...
- -------------------------------------------------------
John,

The two side by side flinters that Concho mentioned are keepers for now (=
you
know how that goes), just picked up another side by side flint, Russ Hamn=

locks, 20ga., walnut wood, pretty plain - no checkering, very good to
excellent cond. - good working gun. Before considering anything would lik=
e to
take it out and see what it will do, pattern, etc. I'll let you know what=
 I
decide.

Over the years I've had "real keepers", that where traded for other "real=
ly
good keepers", and somehow they just slipped away - like horse tradin'.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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