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hist_text-digest      Saturday, February 13 1999      Volume 01 : Number 237




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:32:56 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth

Here are the three entries in Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary that =
mention Grommet.  As you can see,  there are no references to anything =
that would resemble the grommets found in modern tarps, etc.=20

As Larry Hubner said, tie straps work good.  I have ties at the corners =
and at 24 inch intervals around each edge of a 10 X 10 tarp.  I drive a =
wooden stake (made on the spot from a short section of stout limb at =
least as big around as your thumb...twice as big is better) into the =
ground and pull the ties around it from each side at least twice before =
tieing.  I also have a small square of canvas sewn into the center of =
the tarp (as re-inforcement) and have fastened ties on each side of the =
canvas to enable me to conveniently tie off to a convenient limb, etc, =
to pull the center of my fly up a little to increase headroom in the =
shelter and to prevent it from billowing inward when the winds come.  =
The ties on the other side of the canvas (the inside, as it were) can be =
used to secure a little support pole or to tie your eyeglasses where you =
can find them...lots of uses.   I waterproofed the connection of the =
ties to the canvas and have never had a leak.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff


GROM'MET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in =
three times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay.


HANK, n.
1.  A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie.
2.  In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails; =
used in the place of a grommet.


TRAV'ELER, n.
1.  One who travels in any way.  Job:31.
2.  One who visits foreign countries.
3.  In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round =
them, forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth


>Sean,
>    I assume by "grommet" you mean those nice little brass washers you =
see at
>the corners of contemporary tarps and tents.  Those practical little =
devices
>never existed during the period we're trying to portray.  I'd be =
interested in
>knowing just when those items were invented and came into common use on =
canvas
>goods.  Grommet holes, hemmed around the edges like button holes, were =
what was
>used on military tents when "tie straps" weren't used.  Generally, a =
rope loop
>was passed through this hole and that became the loop that was staked =
to the
>ground.  If brass grommets is what you've used for your "period" =
shelter, I'd
>recommend using that tarp AS a painters drop cloth.  On your next =
version put
>tie straps at the corners or use small stones tucked into the cloth and =
tied off
>as Pat Quilter has recommended in a pervious posting.
>
>Larry  Huber
>"Shoots-the-Prairie"
>
>sean wrote:
>
>> There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF =
from
>> Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents. =
 You
>> can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine =
for
>> clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a =
heavy
>> painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to =
prevent
>> raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and =
about
>> every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so =
does
>> the tarp...
>>
>> Addison Miller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>> To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
>> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> >Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick =
needle and
>> >thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight =
seal. Your
>> >tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread =
the
>> >strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only =
a few
>> >drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock =
or
>> >musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie =
a cord
>> >or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this =
and use a
>> >plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few =
minutes extra
>> >at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the =
edges or
>> >in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>> >Pat Quilter
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that =
L&C had
>> >used
>> >oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I =
will
>> >continue
>> >to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas =
with some
>> >sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame =
over a
>> >rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging =
might
>> >make.
>> >I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned =
that
>> >ordinary
>> >cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather =
heavy
>> >waxed
>> >linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave =
pretty big
>> >holes. Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Pat Quilter wrote:
>> >
>> >> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>> >available,
>> >> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of =
oilcloth
>> >in
>> >> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such =
references
>> >to
>> >> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
>> blankets,
>> >> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures =
such
>> as
>> >> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>> >prepared
>> >> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions =
(such as
>> >> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to =
those who
>> >> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is =
lighter,
>> >> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic =
precautions
>> of
>> >> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used =
our pack
>> >> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, =
and 1-2
>> >> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>> >consolidate
>> >> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> >> Humbly submitted,
>> >> Pat Quilter
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >>
>> >> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to =
the use
>> >> of oilcloth
>> >> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an =
acceptable
>> >> alternative
>> >> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:41:38 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

Mr. Patti,

I suggest you spend a few more years studying the fur trade,
native american history, and the relationships that have existed between man
and nature. I sure don't confess to know everything,
on the contrary it seems the older I get the more aware of all the things I
don't know. I can tell you I lived for seven years in a 12' by 16' cabin
back  in the woods of northern WI with no electricity or running water
and that experience helped me understand many things mainly
because when I wasn't working I had a LOT of time to read and
THINK. Studying archeology from paleo times to present has been one of the
most enjoyable things for me and has really opened my eyes in a lot of
respects. We are fortunate that there are many records
of the fur trade and early exploration of this country. There is hardly no
end of things to read and learn about.
I can't see how some people can form such strong opinions after
watching a few movies like "Dances with Wolves" and the like.

From the Northwoods

Tony Clark
- -----Original Message-----
From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post


>Rick,
>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted
a
>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
feel
>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>
>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>this ....
>                                Sal______
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>Henry,
>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in the
>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
price
>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short years
>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER), it
>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>
>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with Jim
>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
To
>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping
>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no more
>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While
>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
have
>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
few
>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:44:06 -0500
From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth

You are right... I should have put "grommet" in quotes.  The holes were
made...(I did use a grommet punch for this)... reinforced with leather...
then sewn around the hole and the leather square.  Pain in the butt!!  and
many holes in fingers!!  I had tried the "rocks in the corner" before, but
justdidn'tlike the way it looked.

Addison

- -----Original Message-----
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth


>Sean,
>    I assume by "grommet" you mean those nice little brass washers you see
at
>the corners of contemporary tarps and tents.  Those practical little
devices
>never existed during the period we're trying to portray.  I'd be interested
in
>knowing just when those items were invented and came into common use on
canvas
>goods.  Grommet holes, hemmed around the edges like button holes, were what
was
>used on military tents when "tie straps" weren't used.  Generally, a rope
loop
>was passed through this hole and that became the loop that was staked to
the
>ground.  If brass grommets is what you've used for your "period" shelter,
I'd
>recommend using that tarp AS a painters drop cloth.  On your next version
put
>tie straps at the corners or use small stones tucked into the cloth and
tied off
>as Pat Quilter has recommended in a pervious posting.
>
>Larry  Huber
>"Shoots-the-Prairie"
>
>sean wrote:
>
>> There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF from
>> Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents.
You
>> can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine for
>> clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a heavy
>> painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to prevent
>> raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and about
>> every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so does
>> the tarp...
>>
>> Addison Miller
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>> To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
>> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> >Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle
and
>> >thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal.
Your
>> >tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
>> >strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a
few
>> >drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
>> >musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a
cord
>> >or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and
use a
>> >plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes
extra
>> >at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges
or
>> >in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>> >Pat Quilter
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >
>> >
>> >Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C
had
>> >used
>> >oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
>> >continue
>> >to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with
some
>> >sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame
over a
>> >rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
>> >make.
>> >I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
>> >ordinary
>> >cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather
heavy
>> >waxed
>> >linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty
big
>> >holes. Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Pat Quilter wrote:
>> >
>> >> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>> >available,
>> >> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of
oilcloth
>> >in
>> >> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such
references
>> >to
>> >> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
>> blankets,
>> >> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures
such
>> as
>> >> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>> >prepared
>> >> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
>> >> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those
who
>> >> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is
lighter,
>> >> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic
precautions
>> of
>> >> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our
pack
>> >> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and
1-2
>> >> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>> >consolidate
>> >> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> >> Humbly submitted,
>> >> Pat Quilter
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> >> To: [e-mail]
>> >> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>> >>
>> >> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the
use
>> >> of oilcloth
>> >> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an
acceptable
>> >> alternative
>> >> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:41:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes

Glad you wrote a report in Rendezvous Report, but I don't get it, and if it
wasn't for this list I wouldn't have heard of it.  Surely I'm not alone, so
just refering to some publication doesn't help much

                                TrapRJoe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:04:47 -0500
From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

My Opinions didn't come from movies.... I lived in a Indian res. in
Texas...I didn't mean to sound like all Indians didn't waste meat and other
stuff, but Most Indians used everything the animal had..."Dances with
wolves" was a good movie, but didn't really show anything about how the
early days in the new world really was...I know I have a lot to learn, but I
do speak my mind at times... SORRY.
- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post


>Mr. Patti,
>
>I suggest you spend a few more years studying the fur trade,
>native american history, and the relationships that have existed between
man
>and nature. I sure don't confess to know everything,
>on the contrary it seems the older I get the more aware of all the things I
>don't know. I can tell you I lived for seven years in a 12' by 16' cabin
>back  in the woods of northern WI with no electricity or running water
>and that experience helped me understand many things mainly
>because when I wasn't working I had a LOT of time to read and
>THINK. Studying archeology from paleo times to present has been one of the
>most enjoyable things for me and has really opened my eyes in a lot of
>respects. We are fortunate that there are many records
>of the fur trade and early exploration of this country. There is hardly no
>end of things to read and learn about.
>I can't see how some people can form such strong opinions after
>watching a few movies like "Dances with Wolves" and the like.
>
>>From the Northwoods
>
>Tony Clark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:48 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
>>Rick,
>>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
>>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
>>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
>>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted
>a
>>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
>feel
>>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
>>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
>>
>>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
>>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
>>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
>>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
>>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
>>this ....
>>                                Sal______
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
>>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
>>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>>Henry,
>>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
>>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
the
>>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
>>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
>>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
>price
>>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
years
>>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER),
it
>>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
>>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
>>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
>>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
>>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
>>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
>>
>>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
>>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
>>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
>>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
>>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
Jim
>>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..
>To
>>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
>>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
jumping
>>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
more
>>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
While
>>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
>>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
>>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
>have
>>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a
>few
>>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
>>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:49:39 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Correct Rifle???

Lucky me I am retired now, have all this time to do what I want to do, when I wa
nt to do it.  So hopefully sometime this summer I will have assemble all the stuf
f I need to have an almost period correct outfit to show up at my First Ever Rend
ezvous?  So the the item I am looking for information on is a rifle, no I am not
going to and buying one of those Great Lyman Great Planes Hunter in Flintlock, go
t something already along those lines.  I am looking for a Flintlock that is from
 an earlier period than what is called the Fur Trade Era.  So here is the questio
n as I understand that some of these Rendezvous and Living history events have so
me real strict rules about what is allowed and not allowed.  There are many Rifle
 both Finish and in Kit forms that are what I will call kind of Rifles.  TVM, GL
Jones, Chambers and other say in their catalog that this or that rifle is not a c
opy of say a Pennsylvania Lancaster County Joe Smith Rifle, Just a kind of Lancas
ter Style.  Question is this Lancaster, Southern Mountain, York County or Tenness
ee Style Period Correct Enough?  What make a rifle or Musket Prior Period Correct
, or not Period Correct?  Answers and information would be greatly appreciated.

B

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:49:39 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Correct Rifle???

Lucky me I am retired now, have all this time to do what I want to do, when I wa
nt to do it.  So hopefully sometime this summer I will have assemble all the stuf
f I need to have an almost period correct outfit to show up at my First Ever Rend
ezvous?  So the the item I am looking for information on is a rifle, no I am not
going to and buying one of those Great Lyman Great Planes Hunter in Flintlock, go
t something already along those lines.  I am looking for a Flintlock that is from
 an earlier period than what is called the Fur Trade Era.  So here is the questio
n as I understand that some of these Rendezvous and Living history events have so
me real strict rules about what is allowed and not allowed.  There are many Rifle
 both Finish and in Kit forms that are what I will call kind of Rifles.  TVM, GL
Jones, Chambers and other say in their catalog that this or that rifle is not a c
opy of say a Pennsylvania Lancaster County Joe Smith Rifle, Just a kind of Lancas
ter Style.  Question is this Lancaster, Southern Mountain, York County or Tenness
ee Style Period Correct Enough?  What make a rifle or Musket Prior Period Correct
, or not Period Correct?  Answers and information would be greatly appreciated.

B

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:05:22 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: enameled tin ware

The folks who put the ever-popular blue enameled tin ware
well into the last part of the 19th century are right on.
In researching period records be careful not to confuse
crockery that might be called "granite--- something orother"
 or items called "enameled .... something or other" with the
enameled tinware so popular today.  I once thought I had
found enameled tinware in a ca. 1830 invoice onloy to
realize upon further research that an "enameled teapot" was
a porcilane (sp) teapot with enameled paint decoration.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:11:12 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise of
the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which dealt
with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name] who
had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it was
not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that the
buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem in
the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease that
causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. This was supported by the
fact that the herd that was captured and moved from The Yellowstone Park to
Canada in the early 1900's was highly infested with brucellosis. This
program only ran one time. I suspect that the managers of the station had
not previewed it thoroughly because it certainly did not meet todays
standards for politically correctness. Now, there is no doubt in my mind
that the hide trade played a major role in the near exctinction of the
buffalo, but given the fact that the herds had become so large and the
animals and were concentrated so closely together, it is very likely that
disease also played a major role in it. Keep in mind the Indians had been
driving buffalo over cliffs by the thousands for centuries. Some of these
sites are still visible today.
Just more food for thought !
Pendleton
- ----------
> From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:42 PM
>
> Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
> things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come
here..
> Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do
be
> leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
> way....( take only what you need).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
> >Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
> >furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
> America.
> > They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
> >Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.
Plain
> >old economics.
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
> >>Rick,
> >>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
> >traders
> >>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
> >fall.
> >>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
> >Indians
> >>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
> >lasted a
> >>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
> >feel
> >>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like
I
> >>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
> >>
> >>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
> >and
> >>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
> >toke
> >>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
> >I'm
> >>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
> >>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in
reading
> >>this ....
> >>                                Sal______
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
> >>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
> >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>
> >>
> >>Henry,
> >>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with
some.
> >>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
> >the
> >>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
> >>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than
the
> >>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
> >price
> >>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
> >years
> >>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity
(BEAVER),
> >it
> >>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
> >>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
> >>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
> >trade'
> >>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
> >>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
> >>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
> >>
> >>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
> >'company'
> >>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
> >struck
> >>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
> >these
> >>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
> >Smith,
> >>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
> >Jim
> >>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur
Co..
> > To
> >>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to
and
> >>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
> >jumping
> >>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
> >more
> >>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
> >While
> >>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they
were
> >>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
> >vs
> >>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
> >have
> >>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and
a
> >few
> >>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
> >what
> >>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>RFC822 header
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com
with
> >ESMTP
> >>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF4BA6B014E; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:03:07 MDT
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> >(EST)
> >>Message-ID: <000601be56ec$2b77e1a0$eb063018@default>
> >>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
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>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:10:30 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

> "Salvatore P. Patti" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )

Salvatore, PLEASE do NOT send mail in HTML format.....a lot of folks
have readers that don't do well with it.  It's considered "rude" on
the net.

As to your question, yes, there will be some coming up shortly here in
NY and PA.  You'll find the announcements in "Muzzleloader," probably
the best magazine for those in our sport.

Fred

- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:24:53 -0500
From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

sorry for the html post i made
- -----Original Message-----
From: Fred A. Miller <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous


>> "Salvatore P. Patti" wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
>> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )
>
>Salvatore, PLEASE do NOT send mail in HTML format.....a lot of folks
>have readers that don't do well with it.  It's considered "rude" on
>the net.
>
>As to your question, yes, there will be some coming up shortly here in
>NY and PA.  You'll find the announcements in "Muzzleloader," probably
>the best magazine for those in our sport.
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
>http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #237
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