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hist_text-digest       Thursday, August 20 1998       Volume 01 : Number 127




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:50:23 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

The book mentioned in your posting is entitled "Footprints along
theYellowstone".  I have checked the book out from  my local library a couple
of times.  It has some fantastic stories about the early days of Montana and
about Liver-eatin' Johnston.  If you can find it, enjoy.

YMHS
Wade

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:47:49 -0500
From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

Johnston is the way it is written on the marker at Trailtown, in WY where
he was reburied.
YF

- ----------
> From: David Tippets <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 11:18 PM
>
> Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> spelling of the last name.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> >
> ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge
and
> >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes
an
> >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> >
> >
> >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> >     Dick
> >
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:49:03 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

so sorry( savory )is the name  my mother was born there

K. Carpenter wrote:

> Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:
>
> > if you go to baggs wyo go a little farther to slater thereis a musium there that is
> > about my great great great grand father also other pioneers of that area his name
> > is james baker he is barred their near there. i still have his sharps buffalo gun
> > an some other charished  memorabilia.      jerry wheeler---iron tongue
> >
> >
>
> > I have been to this museum in Savery, Wyoming.  They have one of Baker's cabins on
> > the museum grounds and one of his dugout canoes in the musuem.
>
> I forgot to mention in my original reply that, several years ago, I actually went to
> the VA cemetary in LA and went to the spot described in a book, I believe Crow Killer,
> to find Johnston's grave.  He had already been moved.
>
> Carp

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:51:09 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

im not sure but i think he is buried in red lodge mont.  iron tongue

David Tippets wrote:

> Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> spelling of the last name.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
> >
> >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> >
> ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
> >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
> >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
> >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> >
> >
> >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> >     Dick
> >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:58:04 -0500
From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

Naw Iron Tongue, he was re-buried at Trailtown and the AMM guys built a
really neat memorial for him. They had a big shindig and even old Robert
Redford was there. I have one of the booklets they gave out and I have some
pictures of it from when Wolf and Pam and I went there one year after
rendezvous. I think that was 1975. Yeah, cause we camped at Henry's Fork
that year too. Getting old and can't keep all that stuff straight as well
as I used to. I'll see if I can find you a photo if you want one.
YF

- ----------
> From: Jerry H. Wheeler <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:51 PM
>
> im not sure but i think he is buried in red lodge mont.  iron tongue
>
> David Tippets wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I have no source of information that documents the correct
> > spelling of the last name.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 10:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston
> >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 8/14/98 7:53:24 AM, you wrote:
> > >
> > ><<If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone,"
it
> > >contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in
Redlodge and
> > >other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also
includes an
> > >account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.>>
> > >
> > >
> > >So, is it Johnston or Johnson?
> > >     Dick
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:24:53 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for list

On 1998-08-18 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1
   >Hey guys and gals.. Is the RevWar listserve defunct..? I try to sub
   >to it, and I get a message back saying it doesnt exist.. Has it
   >moved...? I'd 'preicate being informed of its status by any of you
   >good folk
HTTP://www.meridian.com/revlist/


That should help ya!
SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:24:53 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for list

On 1998-08-18 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1
   >Hey guys and gals.. Is the RevWar listserve defunct..? I try to sub
   >to it, and I get a message back saying it doesnt exist.. Has it
   >moved...? I'd 'preicate being informed of its status by any of you
   >good folk
HTTP://www.meridian.com/revlist/


That should help ya!
SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:09:16 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: (fwd)Negro trappers

>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:39:26 -0700
>From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Negro trappers
>To: [e-mail]
>Reply-to: [e-mail]
>MIME-version: 1.0
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT  (Win95; U)
>Posted-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:04:16 -0700
>
>Henry,  As you will see below I've sent this to the mountain man list
>Sunday and it's now Tuesday and it hasn't shown up yet.  I don't know
>what the problem is, but I thought I'd send it straight to you, and see
>if you get it that way.  Let me know if you do.  Thanks, Dale Nelson
>
>Subject:
>        Negro trappers
>  Date:
>        Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:23:51 -0700
>  From:
>        Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
>    To:
>        [e-mail]
>
>        Henry Crawford and to whom else it might concern.  Henry, some
>time ago
>you asked if anyone had any info on black mountain men, and there was a
>lot of discussion of Beckworth, but I don't recall any others.  I hope
>I'm not repeating what others have said, but I ran across this
>information in a totally unexpected place.  I've been researching the
>Applegate Trail, and this information is in a book titled "TWO TRAILS
>NORTH" Trappers' Trails and Travellers' Tales From the Umpqua Through
>the Willamette, Long Tom and Siuslaw River Valleys  -- Volume 1 - Lane
>Applegate Trail Sesquicentennial Series by Douglas P. Card.   This is
>like a county museum book, (Lane stands for Lane county) and it's 6
>years out of period, but the people aren't.  The trail was scouted out
>in 1846, and was the southern route to Oregon.  The guide that took Levi
>Scott and Jesse Applegate through to map out the trail for the first
>time was Moses "Black" Harris (ca. 1800 - 1849)
>        In 1845 he was with Elijah White trying to find a better route
>through the Cascade mountains, and in 1845 he helped rescue the lost
>wagon train that Stephen Meeks (Joe's brother) got all tangled up out in
>the Oregon desert.  Then in 1846 he helped lead the party which
>discovered the route through the Calapooya Mountains and into the Umpqua
>drainage.  The worst part of the trail was the "dread canyon of the
>Umpqua", and he lead the second party that found that pass, and made it
>all the way through Nevada.  He helped the first emigrant train come in,
>and came back with a rescue party to rescue the stragglers, who were
>loosing all their possessions and dying in what is now Canyon Creek pass
>on I-5.  Now you kind of breeze through that nine miles in 8 minutes.
>It took the first train 3 weeks.  Some people don't think he was black,
>and you might contact the Douglas County Museum in Roseburg, OR to see
>what they have to say on that.  Miller painted him and described his
>skin as being very dark.  And of course there is this that is either his
>epitaph or at least written about him by Clyman.  "Here lies the bones
>of old Black Harris     Who often traveled beyond the far west      And
>for the freedom of equal rights      He crossed the snowy mountain
>heights      Was a free and essay kind of soul     Especially with a
>belly full."
>        A black man named Black Douglas worked for the HBC, but he
>doesn't say in what position he was employed.
>        Probably the first black man to reach Southern Oregon was a man
>named Peter Ranne or Raney.  He was with Jedediah Smith's brigade and
>was killed at the junction of Smith River with the Umpqua along with
>most (15) of Smith's other men.  He was Smith's servant when they were
>detained in Mexican California.
>        George Winslow  (Winslow Anderson)   In 1834 he was with Ewing
>Young when he first came to Oregon and Winslow is credited with being
>the first black man in Lane County, which is the most southern part of
>the Willamette valley.  He is one of the men who signed a Temperance
>Pledge directed at Young, but despite that he stayed close to him and
>frequently appears in his ledgers under one of his two names.
>
>        Hope this was some help to you.           DN
>
>

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:29:14 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)

>No I don't think so....but I do know that some Hispanics and African
>Americans are lactose intolerant but not the entire group  of people.
>
>Ted

That's my point.  Just because some members of a certain race have similar
characteristics, you can't make a general rule for the rest.  I am not
lactose intolerant, nor are any members of my family on both sides.  I do
know several Caucasians who are, but there is no way one can say that all
are.

How did we ever get on this anyway??  I missed a chapter somewhere.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:19:51 +0000
From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka: Calico)

I am lactose intolerant and have been for near 20 years. earlier in my life I
enjoy all milk products.  The intolerance started slowly.  My mother has
always been lactose intolerant.  Most peoples bodies have enzymes that break
down the complex sugars in milk.  If you don't have these enzymes those
sugars are broken down in the large intestines by bacteria.  The by-produce
of this is for most people extreme abdominal pain and gas.  Back to the
original statement,  if you have never eating a product like milk as most
native  Americans hadn't then they wouldn't have those enzymes.   In survival
situations in the wilds, they tell you not to eat the wild plants, if you
haven't been eating them on a regular basis, because they will make you sick.

Forrest Smouse

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >Re "racial" lactose intolerance -- Actually this is possible (maybe as
> >much from accustomed diet as racial stock) -- my father told us a story
> >of how his unit treated a bunch of Korean orphans during the Korean war
> >to an ice cream party, only to watch in dismay as they all got sick.
> >Indian ancestry traces back to Asian groups, I believe ???
>
> I think this has more to do with malnutrition, especially if the orphans
> had been starving.  It takes the system some time to reaclimate to acidic
> foods after having been deprived.  The ice cream may have been a bit
> premature.
>
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:07:26 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> >No I don't think so....but I do know that some Hispanics and African
> >Americans are lactose intolerant but not the entire group  of people.
> >
> >Ted
>
> That's my point.  Just because some members of a certain race have similar
> characteristics, you can't make a general rule for the rest.  I am not
> lactose intolerant, nor are any members of my family on both sides.  I do
> know several Caucasians who are, but there is no way one can say that all
> are.
>
> How did we ever get on this anyway??  I missed a chapter somewhere.
>
> HBC

Henry,

Clearly some folks are confusing the genetic component of lactose intolerance
with racial issues.  I don't need to remind a black man of the many times this
has happened.  There may well have been racial groups -- read genetically
isolated Native American groups -- where such a genotype became prevalent.
There may also have been many groups where lactose (the specific sugar found
in milk) was not part of their dietary experience, and where despite having
the genetics to handle it, that tolerance dies out after their mothers weaned
them if they never again consume milk products -- particularly after puberty.
Our contemporary world is filled with 'adult' folks intolerant of milk sugars
- -- for genetic and other reasons.

I think that except for the improbability of Native American groups so
isolated that such a gene can gain dominance, most of the milk intolerance is
based on the short term effects of malnutrition, or the cultural effects of
not having milk in the diet since infancy.

I believe that any workers in the international aid field today would echo
these notions.

Your thoughts?

Gary, aka Heron

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:25:40 -0500
From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)

Have just done some reading on this subject and found it interesting.
Doctors that deal in alternative treatments have determined that ALL
people do not have the enzymes to digest milk or milk products after the
age of 2.  I enjoy milk and milk products, and will continue, however, they
are sure that the process that the milk has to go through to meet the US
standards kills all the enzymes in it, so you must rely upon your body to
figure a way to digest it.  That is why many more people today are
lactose intolerant.

Just thought would share some things I have read during the past
several weeks.

Tim Austin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:20:45 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: MtMan-List: Milk (aka Calico)

Oops....sorry Henry and the list. The milk thing came out of the "History of
Fort Nisqually" book and the implication, as I saw it, was that HBC was
poisoning the Indians,  kinda like what happened in Walla Walla. Before the
arrows flew this time, milk was determined to be what made the locals
sick......
There is a connection to the fur trade somewhere in there........

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:44:50 -0600
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

I'm making  some center seam moccs with a commercially tanned elk hide.  Can
I use the smooth side in for a better look, or does this get to slick or
sticky against the skin?

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:35:29 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

Scott'
You can do it that way and it will look better but it may also (like you
suspect) make the moc sticky inside. Go back a few weeks in this list and you
will come to a discussion of how to "improve" commercially tanned elk hides, by
carfully sanding ouf the hair side or scarf skin. What that will do is make the
leather not so streachy and if you then put the hiair side out without the scarf
skin on, it will look much better and wear quit well too. Hope this gets you
started. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Scott Singer - "Spinner" wrote:

> I'm making  some center seam moccs with a commercially tanned elk hide.  Can
> I use the smooth side in for a better look, or does this get to slick or
> sticky against the skin?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:40:37 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)

For those of you who don't know about it, there is a series coming on next
week on the History Channel you may find interesting.  All times listed are
Eastern Time.


Longshot

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Monday, August 17 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Tuesday, August 18 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 Noon - 1:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Rogers' Rangers. Meet Major Robert Rogers, an
unorthodox leader who helped create the
                               concept of commando-style fighting and wrote
down military rules still used today. His forces,
                               known as Rogers' Rangers, with their knowledge
of the terrain, camouflage, and surprise attack,
                               gained the upper hand in the British struggle
against the French in America. (cc) [TV G]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Tuesday, August 18 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Wednesday, August 19 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 1:00 PM - 2:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Pontiac's Rebellion. Looks at the conflicts and
personalities that fueled the Native-American
                               resistance of 1763 when Ottawa war chief
Pontiac and a consortium of Woodland tribes nearly
                               wrested ten Great Lakes forts from British
hands. We'll examine Pontiac's reasons for opposing
                               the British and siding with the French during
the French and Indian Wars. (cc) [TV G]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Wednesday, August 19 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Thursday, August 20 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 2:00 PM - 3:00 PM

                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               The Long Knives. Story of George Rogers Clark,
Revolutionary War general and brother of
                               William Clark of the Lewis & Clark Expedition.
Leading a small army in 1777--year of "The Bloody
                               Sevens"--on secret orders from Patrick Henry,
Clark launched a series of bold and brilliant strikes
                               against the Redcoats ending in stunning victory
in Indiana in 1779. (cc) [TV G]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Thursday, August 20 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM
Friday, August 21 1:00 AM - 2:00 AM
Sunday, August 23 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM


                               Frontier
                               Legends of the Old Northwest.
                               Tecumseh: The Dream of Confederacy. Traces the
rise of the Shawnee warrior Tecumseh and his
                               half-blind brother known as The Prophet. From
1806 to 1808, they summoned a contingent of
                               tribes to a last stand against the white men.
Looks at the rivalry between Tecumseh and William
                               Henry Harrison, who rode Tecumseh's defeat at
Tippecanoe all the way to the White House. (cc)
                               [TV G]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:38:04 -0600
From: "Scott Singer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?

I got a piece of good heavy, pliable, commercially tanned hide (either moose
or elk, forget which) to make a pair of soft-soled center seam moccasins.
Could I make them with the smooth side in (for looks), or is that
uncomfortable against the feet (slick, sticky, etc). Or is the "suede" side
better against the skin?  Will that make the soles more slippery?

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:02:32 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?

Like I said, Scott, they will wear better with the hair side out but they will
be slicker that way too unless you sand off the scarf skin like I suggested.
That will give them a bit more traction. If you had been using brain tan as in
the old days, you would wear the leather flesh side in and part of the process
of making brain tan is to scrape off the scarf skin. So that is the best way to
do it in my opinion. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Scott Singer wrote:

> I got a piece of good heavy, pliable, commercially tanned hide (either moose
> or elk, forget which) to make a pair of soft-soled center seam moccasins.
> Could I make them with the smooth side in (for looks), or is that
> uncomfortable against the feet (slick, sticky, etc). Or is the "suede" side
> better against the skin?  Will that make the soles more slippery?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:43:34 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?

i would use the smooth side out but also line it with trade wool it will keep
your feet a little warmer in the mornings are if they get wet.
                                     traphand

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:48:25 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or out?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --part0_903617305_boundary
Content-ID: <0_903617305@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Am sending you a listing from Mtn.man that I found interesting.  I would
personally put the smooth side of the hide IN towards my foot.  However, if
you are worried about it being too slick you could rough it up with a sander.
The other option is to line it with wool.  Cut the wool from the same pattern
that you cut the moccasin. Hope this helps.

If you have kids and want a really cheap way to go with them.  Cover a pair of
tennis shoes (preferably slip on kind) with leather.  They look like real
mocassins and keep the little feet from getting hurt.

Good luck.

Red Hawk

- --part0_903617305_boundary
Content-ID: <0_903617305@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: text/plain;
    name="LEATHER"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Content-disposition: inline

<HTML><PRE><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" SIZE=3D3>Subj:=09 MtM=
an-List: commercial leather clothes
Date:=0998-07-30 20:44:03 EDT
From:=[e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Sender:=[e-mail]
Reply-to:=[e-mail]
To:=[e-mail]

I have created many articles of clothing out of both braintan and
commercial leather. When constructing clothing for film, there are many
techniques for ageing and coloring leather. Another note, the white
buckskin is tanned as a formaldehyde tan. Common colored hides you see ar=
e
chrome tanned, then dyed varoius colors. We can get these white hides
readily. I like to use a smoke colored hide then use "fullers dirt" to ag=
e
it. I also air brush to add highlights. I have taken the gold buckskin an=
d
made it look great. The first thing though is to use the suede side out. =
I
have have a commercial buffer in our tannery and have buffed the grain of=
f.
Also used a sand blaster on large hides. You can use a belt sander only i=
f
you have a soft pad under the leather, otherwise you will tear holes in i=
t.
The grain does not have to be completely removed, only roughed up.

Cutting fringe very thin, will disguse the commercial look. Nothing is
better than braintan when it comes to wear and looks but with some
imagination you can create a good looking outfit. Lamb suede is great for
light shirts. Deer and elk splits are ok but tend to be weak hides. Deer =
is
stronger than elk as the fibers are closer together. Why some folks want
shirts or pants from elk other than getting the neccessary size for a lar=
ge
man is beyond me.

The best thing to do with all hides wheather braintan or commercial is to
"block" them or wet, stretch and tack out the hides till dry. This is why
some guys crotch hangs down to their knees or moccasins tend to grow a si=
ze
or two. Remember that hides have more stretch from side to side than neck
to butt. This is important in cutting leather. Also that no hide will lay
completely flat as it comes off a round animal.

If anyone is interested in some other ideas of how to age leather or tone
down the gold color, let me know. As for using" Rit out" for removing
color, just lay the hides in the sun for a couple day and the color will
fand quickly on the grain side, the suede side does not work as well. Rit
out really does not do that great of a job , and neither does bleach.

Just some thoughts

Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baske=
ts
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka



</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0f0f0f" BACK=3D"#fffffe" SIZE=3D3>

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- --part0_903617305_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:54:43 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins from commercial elk
skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain side out
or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.

Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:17:42 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

- --------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe is right in that they will have a better appearance if built with the suede
or scruffy side out. Looks more like brain tan. If you have the time though,
you will get better wear from them by using the hair side out and you can have
the better appearance talked about above if you sand the scarf skin or hair
side off. You might find that a 1 1/2" strap under the moc and secured with
thong around the ankle  will give an added measure of traction to slippery mocs
and it is authentic. (not always done, but I believe it was done). I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Joe Brandl wrote:

> I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins from commercial elk
> skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
> on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain side out
> or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.
>
> Joe
>



- --------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
Joe is right in that they will have a better appearance if built with the
suede or scruffy side out. Looks more like brain tan. If you have the time
though, <U>you will get better wear</U> from them by using the hair side
out and you can have the better appearance talked about above if you sand
the scarf skin or hair side off. You might find that a 1 1/2" strap under
the moc and secured with thong around the ankle  will give an added
measure of traction to slippery mocs and it is authentic. (not always done,
but I believe it was done). I remain....

<P>YMOS
<BR>Capt. Lahti'

<P>Joe Brandl wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I just finished several pair of center seam moccasins
from commercial elk
<BR>skin. I believe the suede side out gives a better appearance. The traction
<BR>on the bottom doesn't seem to make a diffence wheather it is grain
side out
<BR>or suede. Both are slick on dry grass.

<P>Joe
<BR><A HREF="http://www.onpages.com/absaroka"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
 </HTML>

- --------------C9A16D1C3463A8B85A29ACE8--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:35:32 -0700
From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126

> >I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
> long
> >after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
> Fort
> >Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
> got
> >quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
> on to
> >say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
> people who
> >are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?
>
> Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
> cream.
>
> HBC

I also read somewhere that many Native Americans are for the most part
lactose intolerant. I have a friend who has this problem. Sometimes she
eats ice cream or drinks a latte because she enjoys the taste and
decides to just put up with the problems it causes.

I would guess that if someone were of mixed heritage, s/he might be less
intolerant.

What is the name of the book about Ft. Nisqually? Sounds interesting.

Gail Martini-Peterson
[e-mail]

Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there.
        Will Rogers

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #127
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