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hist_text-digest        Monday, August 10 1998        Volume 01 : Number 122




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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:13:37 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)

Couldn't the story told by the Blackfeet be equally face saving?  A naked
white man successfully making his escape from armed Blackfoot warriors would
have been extremely embarrassing.  Looks like one or other story is the
product of a nineteenth century spin doctor.  (...and all this time I
thought you-know-who invented that job description).   Mountaineers were
certainly not above spinning yarns or enhancing the truth to make themselves
look more heroic.   Jim Beckwourth's stories are commnly held to be
exaggerated at best, if not outright lies.   James Ohio Pattie's book is so
riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 9:38 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)


> John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
>>another good story.
>
>Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
>know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
>published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.
>
>The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
>no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
>their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
>killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
>others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.  They
>stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring
>that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living
>warning sign.  Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story
>that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one

>to explain why his partner was dead.  Logic dictates that the Blackfeet
>version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man
>running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to
>survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape.
>
>I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are
>all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:23:18 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks!

Thank you for the kind words, guys; I'm glad I'm able to help. Everyone on
this list has different skills; I love book research, but there's tons of
stuff I don't know. I rely on you folks to help fill in the many, many big
holes in my practical knowledge.

I think that thanks are also due to John Kramer, who has  used his own
research to spend a lot of time answering a host of questions about woodwork
& finishing "back then", questions I didn't even know enough to ask! And
Henry Crawford (HBC) has also been quite generous with his time and experience.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:32:40 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)

In a message dated 8/7/98 9:39:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Henry writes:

<< -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could
have easily
 killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
 others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.-------(stuff
deleted)-------- >>


    This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and
figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point.  Something to
consider though is that human nature is such that when we are outdone at
something, we start to concoct all "the reasons why."    How many folks ever
lost a race and then said "Well, I was just getting over a sprained ankle" or
"well, I felt sorry for him and let him win"   Something to consider.

                                                                           Lon
gshot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:51:13 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)

What a great thing this list is. I am at the moment preparing a talk about the
Mountain Men. As Crawford says the story may be apocryphal, but I had not been
able to find an alternate version. Now I can add this to my story. Thank you
very much.

<< Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
 know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
 published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.

 The Blackfeet have their own version, >>Henry B. Crawford

Tom Laidlaw
 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/tomactor/index.html">Tales of the Oregon
Trail</A>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:22:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"

>
>  John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
> >another good story.
>
> Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
> know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
> published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.
>


Colter also told his story to Bradbury and Thomas.  See
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/colter.html



> The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
> no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
> their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
> killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
> others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.

Interesting - where did you see that?  Did someone write down the
Blackfoot side of the story at some point?  It would be great to find a
historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their
encounters with the Mountain Men.


- -Dean

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"

> Did someone write down the
> Blackfoot side of the story at some point?  It would be great to
find a
> historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their
> encounters with the Mountain Men.

I have my doubts about any contempory blackfoot accounts of encounters
with mountain men.  They basically killed trappers on sight which was
great sport to them.  You could send the message i.e. stay off our
turf, just as effectively by killing anyone you caught trespassing and
it was a lot more fun.  I have read many, many Indian accounts of the
Custer battle most of which were collected on of before the 10th
anniversary of the fight and while they agree on many points the
accounts themselves present a lot of problems.  The quality of the
interpreters was probably the biggest factor.  In Colter's time I
don't think there were any white men who had marriend into the
Blackfoot, lived with them, knew their language, and could translate
for them.  Sign language only goes so far.  I may be wrong here but as
I recall the Blackfoot remained a real problem until 1838 when they
were pretty much descimated by smallpox.  Like Dean, I would like to
find out the source of the Indian account mentioned previously.

              Dennis
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:09:30 -0700
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book

  James Ohio Pattie's book is so
>riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
>debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
>can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
>Lanney Ratcliff


I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I
once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the
same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting
reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both
books

Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:15:50 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)

I think it could make the story more exciting to tell the other side also. I
can't help but imagine the Blackfeet saying: "We'll chase him toward the
river. He'll probably get under that big raft of logs that always collects
down there..."

<< << -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they
could
 have easily
  killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
  others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping
grounds.-------(stuff
 deleted)-------- >>


     This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and
 figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point. >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:46:16 -0600
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book

Hello the list!

Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The
West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately,
they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be
interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the
information to them.

YMOS,
Ron Chamberlain

P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books.


<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
Email <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:33:39 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book

Hey Ron:
    I got a book titled "Alfred Jacob Miller: Artist on the Oregon Trail"
edited by Ron Tyler. This book is 8 1/2"x11 over 400 pages. I quote from the
cover sheet:
    "Although Miller's paintings have been known for a number of years, this
is the first study of his entire career, spanning his earliest painting in
Baltimore, his two years of study in Paris and Rome, his Western trip, his
visit to Scotland, and his later career in Baltimore."
    This book was done in conjunction with an exhibition that traveled to
the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth,
Texas and the Buffalo Bill Historic Center in Cody, Wyoming all in 1981-82.
I got the book directly from the Amon Carter Museum in Texas, it cost about
$40.00 can you believe it!! Call'em they may still have some left.
Gail Carbiener
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ron <[e-mail]>
To: MtMan-list <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 9:35 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book


>Hello the list!
>
>Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The
>West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately,
>they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be
>interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the
>information to them.
>
>YMOS,
>Ron Chamberlain
>
>P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books.
>
>
><http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
>Email <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:48:45 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book

That title rings a bell. That may well be it.  The book makes for very
interesting reading as it contradicts nearly all of Pattie's stories, one by
one.  It asserts that Pattie either was often not where he said he was, ( by
geographic impossibility or multiple conflicting information from trusted
journals, etc) or, if he was around, that he inserted himself into the
exploits of others and gave himself a heroic role in the episode described
by them.  However, he and his father did, indeed, travel extensively in the
west, becoming mountaineers along the way.  His father died before Pattie
returned home (to Missouri, if memory serves).  Pattie borrowed money for a
ship passage from Mexico and met a newspaper reporter to whom he told his
story for money.
Look for the book.  The author makes a compelling case for doubting
virtually everything Pattie said in his book.  If I run across my copy I
will post the title.
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 11:34 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book


>  James Ohio Pattie's book is so
>>riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to
>>debunking his version of his exploits.  I had a copy and have lost it and
>>can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?
>>Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I
>once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the
>same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting
>reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both
>books
>
>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
>
>AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
>"Aux aliments du pays!"
>
>Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
>Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:01:35 -0500
From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list

I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list it
was a accident I hit the wrong line in my phone book. I am sorry for any
inconvenience this caused anyone. I really enjoy the forum and would not
want to displease anyone.
Larry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:07:38 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter

Ok now, I have the "real" story, You see I watched a Disney movie about
this and since they "always" protray the truth.......

Johnny Colter, He liked to be called Johnny or JC for short, something his
granny started, got caught by the Blackfoot and they made fun of him by
calling him names like whitey, dog face and so on. Anyway, being the nice
folks that they were, they only made him strip to his underwere (modesty
was in then). Thinking a foot race might be sporty, the big chief gave him
a head start to the river. Johnny being a former Olympian for the US, ran
like a rabbit and soon out distanced all the those nasty Blackfoot. Once he
made it to the river, he swan over to a large beaver lodge, went up the
hole and crawled in with Chucky Beaver and his family. Now Chucky
recognized Johnny as a trapper even without his clothes. Chucky wasn't too
happy to have Johnny in his lodge. Johnny pleaded with the whole beaver
family not to give away his hiding spot. Chucky made him promise never to
hurt another animal again. Johnny agreed readily. Meanwhile the those bad
Blackfoot were looking all over for Johnny. When evening came, they went
home as they did not like to be out after dark without any candles to see
by. Someone could get hurt by falling down or running into a low branch.

Johnny stayed with the beaver for a couple of days, just swimming the the
little ones and helping them with the big dam project. Johnny didn't have
the teeth to help much with the wood sawing, but he could pack some big
logs and carrying mud in his mouth wasn't too bad after he acquired a taste
for it.

Soon it was time to go. Johnny bid Chucky beaver and his fine family adios
and headed downstream to the Yellowstone river and on to the Missouri. It
was a long swim and hike, but he was in shape. Word had spread to all the
forest animals that Johnny was a friend to all animals. They helped him
find food to eat and to use bark for clothing. When it was cold at night,
the bears would bed down beside him to keep him warm. When he lost his way,
the ravens showed him the way.

He finally reached the Missouri and found some other trappers building a
fort. He told them all about his experiences with the Blackfoot and the
forest animals. They laughed at him for a long time. But Johnny persisted.
Finally the leader of the Fort, Manual, gave Johnny some new clothes and a
job. He told him to go to the Crows on the Stinking Water and convince them
to come and trade at the new fort. Johnny thought this was a neat job, so
he went. Well, as the story goes on, Johnny completed his job very well and
returned to the fort. He was a bit discouraged and decided that he would go
back east and become a farmer and just grow crops for the animals. Johnny
died some years later and since then many folks have twisted his story
around and made him appear to be a nasty trapper who hurt animals and wore
leather clothes. but we know the real story!
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:30:41 -0700
From: "The Windhams" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bison Meat

Hello camp !

I've seen a couple people asking about Bison meat and where to get it. I've
found a local shop here in Calif. that does ship it and other forms of meat
all over the country . They have a web page , The URL is:
www.avwinery.com  . I'm not involved just thought I'd put it out there for
any one with an intrest.

Rick
aka blackhawk

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 20:17:38 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail

Hello all:

    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but
the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
available.
    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?

Gail Carbiener

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 10:04:30 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail

>    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy,
>but
>the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
>available.
>    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?
>
>Gail Carbiener

I've only gone on one rendezvous (I have no transportation so need I say
more?) but that rendezvous was truly memorable!  I did have what I think
was called beaver tail stew....ohhhhh it was delicious!  However I didn't
remember how it was made.  Iron Burner, did you remember how it was made?

Ted

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 07:03:53 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail

>Hello all:
>
>    I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but
>the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are
>available.
>    Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared?
>
>Gail Carbiener

I have cooked it by skinning it and skewering it on a stick, then proping
it up near a fire close enough to cook it.  It is very greasy, sort of like
bacon so I don't think one would want to make an entire meal out of it.  I
have heard of oldtimers here in  central Montana having in the past been
served beaver tail in beans.
As faras the rest of the meat, I found it to be tasty.  Cooked in stews.
Last winter while skinning a couple beaver I kept the hind quarters aside
but after an hour or two of skinning and smelling the animal I was no
longer in the mood to eat it.               Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:03:18 -0700
From: Dale Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail

Gail Carbiener wrote:
>
> beaver tail is a delicacy, ---- how was/is the tail prepared?

My experience with beaver tail is very slim, simply put, I wouldn't eat
any.  It looked to me like it was mostly fat and not heart safe for an
old coot with a bad ticker.  Now days we eat the lean, in those days
they prefered the lard, in fact they had to have it for energy.
            DN

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 19:56:15 +0000
From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run"

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
>
> I had a copy and have lost it and
> can't remember the its title.  Anybody recall the name?


The name of the book is _James Patties West: The Dream and the Reality_
By Richard Batman. Also published under the title _American
Ecclesiastes: The Stories of James Pattie_.

- --
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #122
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