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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, April 2 2003       Volume 01 : Number 1184



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183
-áááááá MtMan-List: Doc. Ivory
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840
-áááááá MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark

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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:53:32 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

In a message dated 3/31/03 4:55:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, which was the original subject.

John... >>

John
Not to belabor this, but the man's comments were related to the arbitrary
modern time determination to cut off the "mountain man" line at 1840.  I can
easily got along with you and Hiram Chittendedn for 1843.  My comments were
to contemporary cut-offs.  Hiram was - most will allow - a man viewing the
definitions of the 1800s.  At this point I will agree with any addendums you
wish to tack onto this thread.

Cheers for now
Dick James

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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:28:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

In a message dated 3/31/03 10:00:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I agree with you that tents were used, but unless a man was riding a horse
and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a tent would not be a high
priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra moccasins and maybe some
extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his trapping gear plus a
few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He would also be carrying his
rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, well, you get the picture.
Phew, I'm tired already!!!! >>


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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:35:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

In a message dated 3/31/03 10:00:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I agree with you that tents were used, but unless a man was riding a horse
and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a tent would not be a high
priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra moccasins and maybe some
extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his trapping gear plus a
few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He would also be carrying his
rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, well, you get the picture.
Phew, I'm tired already!!!! >>

Bears
This a pretty good summation.  You might find such a kit would also include a
fair amount of trade goods - at least at the beginning of the season.  There
was a balance  -  fewer trade goods in the pack equals more plews in the pack
by the end of season.  Now put yourself in the situation.  A pack animal (or
two or three) would be loaded down and the back covered with canvas - the
first thing you take off when you unload the animal at night (or during the
day for him/her to rest and graze).  Now you stack your goods in a compact
pile and cover them with cloth.  Could be there is cloth left over to cover
you as well.  With a little planning there could be.  John Clymer, when he
was alive did some remarkable paintings of the subject.  He was a great
artist - and very dedicated to detail and correctness.  This was magnified by
his wife who was a dedicated researcher and influenced much of his work.

Most sincerely
Richard James
AMM #79


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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:49:50 -0800
From: "Bear Kelsey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

Bears
This a pretty good summation.  You might find such a kit would also include
a
fair amount of trade goods - at least at the beginning of the season.  There
was a balance  -  fewer trade goods in the pack equals more plews in the
pack
by the end of season.  Now put yourself in the situation.  A pack animal (or
two or three) would be loaded down and the back covered with canvas - the
first thing you take off when you unload the animal at night (or during the
day for him/her to rest and graze).  Now you stack your goods in a compact
pile and cover them with cloth.  Could be there is cloth left over to cover
you as well.  With a little planning there could be.  John Clymer, when he
was alive did some remarkable paintings of the subject.  He was a great
artist - and very dedicated to detail and correctness.  This was magnified
by
his wife who was a dedicated researcher and influenced much of his work.

Most sincerely
Richard James
AMM #79


Yea, I have seen a painting or two of his I think. My memory don't work so
well anymore. I used a packboard up in Alaska and it had a removable pack on
it. I would sometimes go out for a week at a time. Depending on the time of
year would determine if and what I would carry for food items. I was pretty
good at living off the land as fishing, hunting and edible plants are
abundant there in the right seasons. Sometimes during the snow months I
would have to carry more food items then I really wanted to. I carried a
smoke pole and sawed off shotgun on my hip, a camp axe and large hunting
knife. Then with camera and stay warm gear, I sometimes had a pretty heavy
load. It was worth every minute of it!!!  "Two Bears"


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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:01:39 -0700
From: Dennis Knapp <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183

> Wynn Ormond wrote...

> My point is this.  As modern rendezvous go I say to each his own.  If all
> they want is to porkyvoo let them and more power to them.  But why is there
> such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events?
> Why don't we see more children at   AMM events?  If we want to pass our
> seriousness to the hobby on  or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post
> that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids?vI talked to Toas Tom about this the other night.  He
> said "What I wouldn't
> have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid.  Man talk about
> playground bragging rights!" So what do yall think about that?

I've read with interest the posts about post-1840, both pro's and cons. Authenticity vs. "hollywood" (my term) is in the eye
of the beholder. It's just that some folks eyes are closed. When Wynn brought up the kids thing I took a bit more notice. I
have been doing the mountain man thing only since 1994. My son's have been right along with me from the beginning. We do
both hollywood rendezvous and truely primitive camping. I am not an AMM member but have been invited to and participated in
a few of the Poison River Party gatherings. I can tell you that they are the most autherntic of ANY events I've ever been
to. We (son's and I) went to an event last summer at Green River Lakes in Wyoming. I was invited by a PRP AMM member. We
canoed in. with the exception of modern caonoes and life jackets, we truely felt like we had come into an 1820 mountain man
camp. Yes women and children were there, but all who played, played by the strictest of primitive rules. Because my kids
were allowed to participate and see what a real primitive camp was like, we have gotten more into the serious side of this
hobby. We will more than likely still do hollywood rendezvous, but we will not be half assed about it. It kids like mine and
Wynn's, and others that will keep the history alive, as long as they are allowed to play and by the rules set forth. I would
rather be in the woods with my son's than a lot of other folks I've met at rendezvous, especially if I'm in need. My 2 pence
worth.
Regards,
Dennis Knapp aka Sticher
Southern Idaho


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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 16:05:40 -0700
From: Ole Jensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Doc. Ivory

Doc,
Please contact me off the list.
Ole


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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:26:39 -0700
From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

Mr Kelsey
I must have come across to strongly.  I was not offended in any way.  I used
the examples of races and drunken shooting because it is my understanding
that that was what went on at the original rendezvous, and I think you can
see that it could lead to some real problems if you tried to encourage that
kind of authenticity.   As to me being "a Christian or something"  I am
still trying to figure that out.  Maybe I will get back to you in thirty
years or so.



>
> Mr Kelsey
> I am not much of a rendezvous'er but let me propose a better idea.  Rather
> than trying to bend modern rendezvous to fit the original why not try to
> emulate the trapper during the other 50 weeks out of the year.  You get to
> have all that fun and you don't have to tell everyone else they can't
bring
> their kids because you want to have horse races through camp and let drunk
> men fire weapons hopefully into the air.
>
> Wynn Ormond
>
>
> WOW, did I touch a nerve or something, sorry if I offended you. You must
be
> a Christian or something. I really didn't mean to upset anybody's apple
cart
> with this chit-chat. I don't believe that I was trying to modify any
> existing rules for modern rendezvous, I was just stating what I would like
> to see sometime


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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 21:47:45 -0700
From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1183

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Knapp <[e-mail]>

. When Wynn brought up the kids thing I took a bit more notice. I
> have been doing the mountain man thing only since 1994. . . . .. We (son's
and I) went to an event last summer at Green River Lakes in Wyoming. I was
invited by a PRP AMM member. We
> canoed in. with the exception of modern caonoes and life jackets, we
truely felt like we had come into an 1820 mountain man
> camp. Yes women and children were there, but all who played, played by the
strictest of primitive rules. Because my kids
> were allowed to participate and see what a real primitive camp was like,
we have gotten more into the serious side of this
> hobby

Dennis
I remember your sons getting a little saddle time on some of our animals at
Green River Lake.  And that had to be a beautiful float in under those
peaks.  I reckon that is the essence of my point.  It seems like the kids
are sort of relegated to the big rendezvoos and not enough seem to be
getting to do the real active stuff.  I bet if we asked them they would
prefer it the other way around.  But perhaps I am wrong, or as someone elses
post stated wrong with some kids.  I look forward to crossing tracks with
you and your boys again.
Wynn Ormond


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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 06:45:18 -0800
From: "Bear Kelsey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

.   As to me being "a Christian or something"  I am
still trying to figure that out.  Maybe I will get back to you in thirty
years or so.

I doubt that I will be around in 30 years or so. The way I am going, I will
be lucky to make it another 20 years at the most. Sorry about the
"Christian" statement, but my life's experiences have taught me that people
that are strongly into organized religion whatever it may be seem to be more
quick to respond out of anger or frustration than not.   "Two Bears"


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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:20:46 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840

Beaver Boy,

Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud. I don't
believe my ideas would lead to a migration west. How many more times am I
going to have to say I don't want to reenact an immigrant wagon train?

You said, "Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of
the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,then move
out west to follow their dreams?" Beaver Boy, don't put words in my mouth.
You say what's on your mind, I'll say what's on my mind. By the way, what's
wrong with pushing the study of the expansion and research of the western
fur trade? At least I know you truly understand the intent of my idea. I
don't mind you disagreeing, just don't me represent me. I'll do that myself.


The purpose of the idea, whether it's good or not, was to generate new
interest which in turn might generate more complete knowledge, which in turn
might create a better representation of rendezvous (and the period
immediatley after it, if it that's what it took to progress). Perhaps then
alot of people would stop reenacting a 1970's rendezvous, or they could have
their own 1970 rendezvous reenactment, and let those who are a little more
serious about history do what it takes to learn more and achieve more.

As has been pointed out, rendezvous is hardly authentic now. I really wonder
what you all are defending so obstinatley. It's obvious that leather halter
tops are the order of the day. I hardly see the harm to authenticity of a
rendezvous in extending the period at least to the 1847 period as outlined
by John Sweet.

It occurs to me some people on the list may think I'm talking about an AMM
rendezvous. In my mind an AMM rendezvous is seperate from the western or
other rendezvous that I'm referring to. AMM rendezvous are supposed to be
more authentic and accurate and serious than others. Two Bears brought up a
good idea, as did Wynn Ormond. Any rendezvous could establish its own
guidelines, but the extravaganza known as modern rendezvous, could in
general extend the time period to at least 1847 without changing the 1970's
reenactment look to any great degree. On the other hand, extending it even
these few years, could lead to more intense research and all the things that
come of that.

I know some of you are very attached to reenacting a 1970 rendezvous. Some
of us aren't.

Jim





>From: <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Post 1840
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:07:43 -0700 (MST)
>
>Jim wrote,
> > Do you think it is just a bad idea then?
>
>Dear List,
>     Jim waxes poetically about the old west that he loves and how the
>pioneers and settlers that came later ruined or changed the west for
>him. Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of
>the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,
>then move out west to follow their dreams? The second or third, fifth,
>sixth migration to the west? Watch out for what you wish for.
>     Jim, you asked in one of your first post on this subject, "Do you
>think this is just a bad idea then?" Yes Jim, it's a bad idea, it's a
>terrible idea. There, I said it, I'm sorry. Your idea of pushing it to
>1860 sucks.
>     I agree with almost everyone. Kramer is right, L&C to Fort Bridger is
>the perfect timeline. Double Edge Forge is right too, they can't get
>it right at rendezvous with the dates we have now so why add 20 more
>years?
>    Jim, it's obvious you're a scholar in this field with a great passion
>and knowledge for this era but this is not a good idea.
>                 Sincerely and most respectfully yours,
>                            beaverboy
>
>
>
>
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:34:43 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840

 How many more times am I
> going to have to say I don't want to reenact an immigrant wagon train?

None. It's understood.

>
> You said, "Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research
of
> the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,then
move
> out west to follow their dreams?" Beaver Boy, don't put words in my mouth.

That is not putting words in your mouth but a speculation on what you might
mean or what might be the result of your ideas. In this case bb is talking
about modern easterners moving out west cause it is so wonderful out here.
Not because they want to re-enact the wagon trains or want to come play
Rendezvous.

 By the way, what's
> wrong with pushing the study of the expansion and research of the western
> fur trade?

Absolutly nothing wrong with the above idea. It's been suggested that if
there is interest in such a discussion then it should be discussed. You will
admit though that as this list is sponsored by AMM and that group's avowed
mission is the study of the "Early" fur trade in the American West/Rocky
Mts. from the early 1800's to the mid 1800's that any discussion that
carry's too far into the years beyond that are likely going to be viewed as
not appropriate and should be carried on elsewhere. But what you propose as
subject matter doesn't seem out of line at this point to me at least. I'm
interested in what happened to the prinipals and participants of that era,
after that era was concidered over. Joe Meek moving on to OR. and being
involved in the aftermath of the Whitman Massacre at Walla Walla is a good
example.

 Perhaps then
> alot of people would stop reenacting a 1970's rendezvous, or they could
have
> their own 1970 rendezvous reenactment, and let those who are a little more
> serious about history do what it takes to learn more and achieve more.

I personally think the point has been well made that expanding the time
frame for modern Rendezvous isn't going to help the level of authenticity at
those events. Admittedly if folks don't know or don't care about that now,
why would introducing a longer time frame help? And let's remember that the
whole purpose of the event is to re-create a series of events in history
during a fairly specific time line in a fairly specific part of the world.
They are not held to re-create what was happening in New York at that time.
Again, that goal is not accomplished well but I submit that expanding the
time line, the location and the personalities involved will not help that
situation one bit. But in any case your talking to the wrong people. You
need to talk to the "Booshways" that put on these events and convince them
that they should expand the time line.

<As has been pointed out, rendezvous is hardly authentic now. I really
wonder
what you all are defending so obstinatley. It's obvious that leather halter
tops are the order of the day.

Leather halter tops are not the order of the day and are usually banned in
the rules of the events I attend out west.


<I know some of you are very attached to reenacting a 1970 rendezvous. Some
of us aren't.>

I doubt that very much. Most if not all the people on this list are
interested in correct history. That has nothing to do with what type of
event we go to but rather the standards we try to set for ourselves when we
do go. It's just not going to help a "1970's" rendezvous or a 2003
rendezvous be true in any form to the 1800's rendezvous for me to go dressed
up like a person from a later era.

Now if you want, let's talk about what happened to various notables of the
early fur trade after the Rendezvous Period was over.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti
















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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:02:02 -0800
From: "De Santis, Nick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads...

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F94A.5843A700
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"

Magpie,

I was trying to catch up on my mail and your post caught my eye.  Have you
used your chronograph to see when increasingly higher and higher powder
loads stop gaining you velocity?  I would think at some point the powder
just is not going to all burn before the ball get out of the barrel.

Thanks,

Travler

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:02 AM
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads...


In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:



Magpie,
for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54
with a good tight patch




Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput.

I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100
yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to
save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr
3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots.

The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than
50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will
see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads....

Magpie




- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2F94A.5843A700
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2722.900" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Magpie,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I was
trying to catch up on my mail and your post caught my eye.  Have you used
your chronograph to see when increasingly higher and higher powder loads stop
gaining you velocity?  I would think at some point the powder just is not
going to all burn before the ball get out of the barrel.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=569015818-02042003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Travler</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [e-mail]
  [mailto:[e-mail]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:02
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> [e-mail]<BR><B>Cc:</B>
  [e-mail]<BR><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List:
  Tough crowd/target loads...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT
  face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">In a
  message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
  [e-mail] writes:<BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
  TYPE="CITE">Magpie, <BR>for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the
    way to 70 fff in my 54 with a good tight patch<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Thanks
  Walt, and all, for the imput.<BR><BR>I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I
  lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight
  with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but
  think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load
  at the shoots.<BR><BR>The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66"
  twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got
  a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light
  loads....<BR><BR>Magpie <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:25:01 -0700 (MST)
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840

> Beaver Boy,
 > Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud.

       Your welcomed, no charge for the analysis.
       I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. You asked if it was a
bad idea and I gave my answer. The post were something like 12 to 1
against your idea of extending the rendezvous dates. There's
nothing wrong with bad ideas, I get them almost everyday.
       Again, sorry if I offended you.
            Cheers,
                beaverboy    aka Sigmund
We're heading out to the Yellowstone today and it just started to snow!
Perfect weather if you're a duck or a muskrat. Yeah!!!




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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:55:40 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840

No offense taken. There's more people reading this stuff than just me and
you. I wanted them to be clear about what I was really talking about. It's
so easy to get sidetracked or misled here. Never did mind people disagreeing
with me. Happens all the time.

Have fun up on the Yellowstone!

Jim






>From: <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840
>Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:25:01 -0700 (MST)
>
>
> > Beaver Boy,
>  > Thanks for the psycho-analysis. You are a regular Sigmund Fraud.
>
>        Your welcomed, no charge for the analysis.
>        I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. You asked if it was a
>bad idea and I gave my answer. The post were something like 12 to 1
>against your idea of extending the rendezvous dates. There's
>nothing wrong with bad ideas, I get them almost everyday.
>        Again, sorry if I offended you.
>             Cheers,
>                 beaverboy    aka Sigmund
>We're heading out to the Yellowstone today and it just started to snow!
>Perfect weather if you're a duck or a muskrat. Yeah!!!
>
>
>
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:20:56 -0500
From: "Tom Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark

FWIW,

This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C
journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html

Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates.

Tom


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Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 20:25:41 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment

Wyn,

You are the only horse man I know on this site that would rather ride them
than eat them so I'll direct this to you and hope others will chime in.

What kind of bit do you use? I've been looking at bridles recently and see
nose bands and no nose bands. What do you use?

I found that a 1909 cavalry bit (the one with straight rein shank instead of
the graceful curved rein shank)is VERY close to mountain man era bits,
complete with the bar swollen at the point it meets the cheek piece. Only a
little altering would make a very close match.


(When I talk of mountain man era I always refer to pre-1850(It's pretty hard
to rely only on info strictly before 1840 because such info is pretty rare
unless you count Mexican equip).

I know the broken bit, or snaffle, was common and have pictures of 1600's
curved shank curb.

I did a little overview of the heavy wooden stirrups and found most of them
represented in paintings after 1840's. I don't recall seeing any in Miller's
work. Texas Panhandle Plains Museum has a pair that were supposed to be from
Morocco yet Ranney painted an identical pair in 1840's. Anyway this is
something I'm going to follow up on. Do you know of any pre 1840's
illustrations of those carved wooden stirrups?

Well, that is a lot of questions. Sure like to hear what you use and how it
works for you.





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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:09:17 -0700
From: "Norman Anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark

>This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C
journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable:

>http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html

>Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates.

>Tom

There are four "main" versions of the Lewis and Clark journals and a number
of abridged versions.  The University of Virginia text appears to come from
the Reuben Gold Thwaites version published in 1904.  Thwaites published the
journals to which he had access--as they were written and without
annotation.  The hypertext material has been corrected for spelling and
punctuation.  It has also been substantially shortened.  It does give a
nice, short version of the trip from the two captains' perspective.

The definitive version of the Journals is Gary Moulton's 13 volume edition
which is now out in paper.  It includes the complete known texts of Lewis,
Clark, Sergeants John Ordway, Charles Floyd, Patrick Gass, and Private
Joseph Whitehouse.  Moulton also has a new one-volume abridged version just
out.

Respectfully,

Norman Anderson


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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:25:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment

Miller shows what is referred to as a Cherokee bridle a simple loop around
the lower jaw with one or two rains. I use this or a buffalo hair rope tied
int a halter with reins no bit. Millers painting an Indian and his pet shows
how to train your horse to stop using light rein and no pit. The Indians rode
often without using the head gear and only leg reined. If you thing you need
a bit an "O" ring snaffle on a bridle with no nose or brow bands
Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader

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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:30:18 -0700
From: "Wynn Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment

- ----- Original Message -----
From: James MacKannai
> You are the only horse man I know on this site that would rather ride them
> than eat them so I'll direct this to you and hope others will chime in.

I have never eaten horse meat but I wouild if I had the chance just to say I
had.  Like the old joke:  Don't name your horses their harder to eat that
way.

>
> What kind of bit do you use? I've been looking at bridles recently and see
> nose bands and no nose bands. What do you use?
>
> I found that a 1909 cavalry bit (the one with straight rein shank instead
of
> the graceful curved rein shank)is VERY close to mountain man era bits,
> complete with the bar swollen at the point it meets the cheek piece. Only
a
> little altering would make a very close match.

I am a sucker for bits just like most horseman.  I have a fancy silver spade
and a bunch of snaffles and a couple leverage bits.  I think my favorite is
no bit at all but a bosal but now lets talk period stuff.  I have not seen
historical evidence to support bosals or even the the nice graceful curved
rein shank that I have.  I think the simple snaffles and straight simple
leverage bits are the most correct, even if they are boring.

> I did a little overview of the heavy wooden stirrups and found most of
them
> represented in paintings after 1840's. I don't recall seeing any in
Miller's
> work. Texas Panhandle Plains Museum has a pair that were supposed to be
from
> Morocco yet Ranney painted an identical pair in 1840's. Anyway this is
> something I'm going to follow up on. Do you know of any pre 1840's
> illustrations of those carved wooden stirrups?

Although my knowledge is limited I don't believe there is much evidence to
support heavy wood stirrups.  Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Ranney the
one who painted strictly from memory and many years later?  That doesn't
mean you have to throw it all away in my book but it does make it less
reliable.  Does anyone have evidence for tapadoras?

I use good old irons hung from a western style tree similar to what I saw in
Kurz drawings on Deans site.  It has only a web of leather straps to hold it
down and no seat.  I want to make a pair of Indian sturrips some day but I
haven't got there yet.

 I have made halters using the popular modern rope style out of manila.  I
also used a pattern from Ewers book on the Blackfoot horse culture.  They
made it out of buffalo hide cut two fingers wide I used cotton rope.

My gear is perhaps not the best and my horses too tall.  It will get better
with time.

Someone was going to check into historical picket pins a while back did they
come up with any old styles or patterns?

Wynn


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:58:09 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Equipment

> I have never eaten horse meat but I wouild if I had the chance just to say
I
> had.  Like the old joke:  Don't name your horses their harder to eat that
> way.

I ate it in Egypt in 1982... actually, it is very good, and really tastes
better than beef!

Regards,

Ad


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:39:01 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark

Tom and the list,

I've checked this hypertext against all 4 complete published versions of the
Lewis and Clark Journals. It appears to have been taken from the edition of
1904, edited by Reuben Gold Thwaites--rather than, as one would have
expected, the much more recent and complete version edited by Gary Moulton.

Whoever produced the hypertext excerpted from the Thwaites journals (which
contain 7 volumes of text) but "cleaned up" the spelling, grammar, and
punctuation to make the language more "modern" or "accurate."

Frankly, this is a travesty. Part of the color and character of reading the
original journals (whether the Thwaites or the Moulton editions) is Clark's
eclectic and creative spelling and Lewis's marvelous 18th century language
(I know, I know, the journals are early 19th century--but Lewis was a
product of the 18th century Enlightenment and wrote in that style). Most of
that is lost in this "hypertext". The hypertext also significantly shortens
the original journals--and does a much poorer job of condensing the journals
than Gary Moulton has done in his recently-published one volume condensation
of his magisterial 13 volume work (10 text volumes, 1 atlas volume, 1 volume
on the herbarium or plants collected by Lewis, and a 1 volume comprehensive
index to the set).

If one goes to the printable version of the text on the website, there--and
only there--do you find the notation that the "text converted and corrected
by William A Muckerheide." The presumption to "correct" the writing of Clark
and Lewis staggers the imagination--particularly when it is done by someone
who is not a Lewis and Clark scholar. In fact, I have no idea who Mr.
Muckerheide is--he is not listed among the students, faculty, or staff of
the University of Virginia.

If you want a good read, go to the new one volume condensation of the
original journals by Gary Moulton. It's the real deal, with ample
annotations, and done in a manner designed to whet your appetite for more.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Tom.

Respectfully,

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Roberts" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark


> FWIW,
>
> This evening I stumbled across this University of Virginia hypertext L&C
> journal which is downloadable as .RTF and searchable:
>
> http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JOURNALS/toc.html
>
> Hopefully someone can comment regarding from which source this originates.
>
> Tom
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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