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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1071 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, August 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1071 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: Traveling light -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light -áááááá MtMan-List: fire power -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: fire power -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: fire power -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light -áááááá MtMan-List: The Ram's Head -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The Ram's Head -áááááá MtMan-List: Blunderbusses -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses -áááááá MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! -áááááá MtMan-List: www.mrkeelboat.com -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:09:17 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Traveling light .... " Each man was provided with half a dozen pairs of Indian shoes, a blanket to sleep in, ammunition, a small axe, a knife, a fire steel and an awl; together with some needles, thread, and tobacco to smoke, all of which he had to carry on his back, and his gun on his shoulder. Each person had the same weight to carry; and this constituted the whole of our traveling baggage with the exception of a cooking kettle and a pint pot. It is the same equipment in all such cases, be the journey for a week, for a month, or for the year. Depending all the time on our guns for our subsistence and for a further supply of shoes, and clothes on the skins of the animals we might chance to kill on our way." Alexander Ross, 1817 Ah.....looks like I'm gonna have to get rid of some more of my gear... Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:42:39 -0400 From: "Tom Roberts" <flint54@cfl.rr.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light Magpie, Don't start pitching gear just yet. Reading ahead only a few short seasons, our friend Al Ross (Snake River Expedition 1824) is now sporting 16 horses and a lodge, and I'm going to make a wild guess that his lodge was not empty. Just goes to show that the older you get, the more stuff you have to carry. <G> Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: <SWcushing@aol.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 12:09 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Traveling light > .... " Each man was provided with half a dozen pairs of Indian shoes, a > blanket to sleep in, ammunition, a small axe, a knife, a fire steel and an > awl; together with some needles, thread, and tobacco to smoke, all of which > he had to carry on his back, and his gun on his shoulder. Each person had the > same weight to carry; and this constituted the whole of our traveling baggage > with the exception of a cooking kettle and a pint pot. It is the same > equipment in all such cases, be the journey for a week, for a month, or for > the year. Depending all the time on our guns for our subsistence and for a > further supply of shoes, and clothes on the skins of the animals we might > chance to kill on our way." Alexander Ross, 1817 > > Ah.....looks like I'm gonna have to get rid of some more of my gear... > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:26:47 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: fire power Magpie, while that is interesting history, let us keep in mind that it was 1823. The quality of black powder was very uncertain at the time and, I suspect, of much lower grade than what we are used to. Also, what kind of game they were shooting at is a major factor. 100 pound whitetails or one ton buff? Makes a difference. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:56:31 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light > Don't start pitching gear just yet. Reading ahead only a few short seasons, > our friend Al Ross (Snake River Expedition 1824) is now sporting 16 horses > and a lodge, and I'm going to make a wild guess that his lodge was not > empty. Just goes to show that the older you get, the more stuff you have to > carry. <G> Geez... this guy sounds like me... When I started out in 1989, everything for my Pard and me fit in the back of my Jeep Cherokee... then, 12 years later, it was the back of a Chev 1500 P/U AND a 6x12x7 utility trailer!!! ...and that was just for the Mouse and me. Now, we are DOWNSIZING to the truck and a 5x8 trailer. At Eastern next month, a WHOLE lot of stuff is going up for sale... Vicki (Mouse) is going to take her herbal store, Meadowsweet, on the road, so I might as well get rid of all my extra stuff... As I advise anyone just starting out... Leave money and credit cards at home until you decide what you really NEED!!"... *grins* Shoulda followed my own advice. If anyone is interested, I am selling my big trailer... pix will be on a page later today... will post when it is done... Regards, Ad - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:31:27 -0700 From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: fire power In the notes in the back of Stewart's book, he extolls the virtues of his large-caliber Manton rifle (16 balls per pound), and declares that in the hands of his preferred hunter, it took more game with less lead than the American rifles carrying 30-40 balls per pound. I believe this is the same quote referring to "miserable shot-out flintlocks" so presumably he is saying that the smaller caliber rifles missed a lot. This referred to the 1833-1837 period. Pat Quilter Magpie, while that is interesting history, let us keep in mind that it was 1823. The quality of black powder was very uncertain at the time and, I suspect, of much lower grade than what we are used to. Also, what kind of game they were shooting at is a major factor. 100 pound whitetails or one ton buff? Makes a difference. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:06:48 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fire power In a message dated 8/8/02 6:28:51 AM, Rifleman1776@centurytel.net writes: << Magpie, while that is interesting history, let us keep in mind that it was 1823. The quality of black powder was very uncertain at the time and, I suspect, of much lower grade than what we are used to. Also, what kind of game they were shooting at is a major factor. 100 pound whitetails or one ton buff? >> Apparently the powder was good enough to kill buffalo, elk, mule deer, and an occasional Indian... but there were many inexperienced with the rifle.... "I observed to them that there appeared to be a great and unnecessary waste of ammunition in camp. That hitherto when the party was traveling half of the people, the ignorant as well as the experienced hunters, were occupied in pursuit of game, by which the animals were more frequently frightened than killed.... "To this end it was settled that four hunters in turn should precede the camp daily, and all the rest attend to other duties...." Ross 1823-24 Sounds like "flock" shooting to me... Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:22:07 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traveling light In a message dated 8/8/02 3:44:25 AM, flint54@cfl.rr.com writes: << Don't start pitching gear just yet. Reading ahead only a few short seasons, our friend Al Ross (Snake River Expedition 1824) is now sporting 16 horses and a lodge, and I'm going to make a wild guess that his lodge was not empty. Just goes to show that the older you get, the more stuff you have to carry. <G> >> Haaaaaa..... True....and Alex was just a lowly trader on foot for the NWCo back in 1817... ...And here is what he had on that first Snake River Expedition... "...in all 55 persons, (not counting 25 women and 64 children) each of which had to be fitted out according to his capacity as a hunter with a gun, from two to four horses, and from six to ten steel traps besides clothing and ammunition, and generally on credit... "The rest of the equipment consisted of seventy-five guns, a brass three pounder, two hundred and twelve beaver traps (!) and three hundred ninety and two horses, together with a good stock of powder and ball and some trading articles" I'm still gonna get rid of the 18 wheeler.....<G> Magpie PS: is "The Fur Hunters of the Far West" a great read, or what??!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:37:16 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: The Ram's Head Another growing tree story.....<G> ....."and about five feet from the ground is growing up with the tree, a ram's head with the horns still attached to it! and so fixed and embedded is it in the tree it must have grown up with it. One of the horns and more than half of the head is buried in the tree; but most of the other horn, and part of the head, protrudes out at least a foot..... The tree is scarcely two feet in diameter." Ross 1824 Whoa..... The Ram's Head or Medicine Tree is close to the bank of the East Fork of the Bitterroot River, near the mouth of Medicine Creek...... Anyone ever see this tree, or is it still standing? Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:50:01 -0600 From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Ram's Head I think that it fell during the last couple of years. Allen Chronister SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Another growing tree story.....<G> > > ....."and about five feet from the ground is growing up with the tree, a > ram's head with the horns still attached to it! and so fixed and embedded is > it in the tree it must have grown up with it. One of the horns and more than > half of the head is buried in the tree; but most of the other horn, and part > of the head, protrudes out at least a foot..... The tree is scarcely two feet > in diameter." Ross 1824 > > Whoa..... The Ram's Head or Medicine Tree is close to the bank of the East > Fork of the Bitterroot River, near the mouth of Medicine Creek...... Anyone > ever see this tree, or is it still standing? > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:05:51 -0400 From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses Why were they used as a camp tool by Mountain men? My family history lists several in old records in California as "escopetas". What were they for? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 9:3:14 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses Scatter guns were a popular item for the camp guard at night, also would come in handy during an attack. an escopeta is a spanish smooth bore carried by the spanish soldiers, etc... hardtack > [Original Message] > From: <Wahkahchim@aol.com> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: 8/8/02 3:05:51 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses > > Why were they used as a camp tool by Mountain men? My family history lists several in old records in California as "escopetas". What were they for? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Chil - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:01:18 EDT From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses - --part1_193.b3c1bac.2a8595ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable info on escopeta >=20 > =20 > The Spanish Escopeta =20 > The escopeta, a light, smoothbore, muzzle-loading musket or carbine was a=20 > popular weapon of the 18th century soldado de cuera. Made with a Spanish o= r=20 > <A HREF=3D"http://alamo-de-parras.welkin.org/history/hispanic_period/parra= s/militaria/miquelet/frameset.html">miguelet lock </A>and a Catalan stock, t= his sturdy and dependable weapon saw=20 > use for nearly 200 years on the northern frontier. There were many=20 > variations in barrel length, and stock design, but the miguelet lock was=20 > commonly used. In 1786, escopetas purchased for frontier use cost the Crow= n=20 > 6 pesos, 5 reales, 9 grains. The Model illustrated was made by Antonio=20 > Guisasola of Eibar, Spain, about 1800. It is caliber .75 with a Catalan=20 > stock and a 33 1/2-inch barrel. The quality of the piece indicates that it= =20 > was carried by a gentleman or officer. This escopeta is in the William=20 > Renwick Collection, Tucson. Photograph by BRUCE D. LINDSAY. =A9 1965, Ariz= ona=20 > Historical Foundation=20 >=20 >=20 =20 - --part1_193.b3c1bac.2a8595ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> info on escopeta <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT= : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <IMG SRC=3D"http://alamo-de-parras.welkin.org/resources/i= mages/adpheader.gif" WIDTH=3D"88" HEIGHT=3D"10" BORDER=3D"0"> The Spanish=20= Escopeta <IMG SRC=3D"http:/= /alamo-de-parras.welkin.org/resources/images/escopeta.gif" WIDTH=3D"480" HEI= GHT=3D"98" BORDER=3D"0"> The escopeta, a light, smoothbore, muzzle-loading musket or carbine was a po= pular weapon of the 18th century soldado de cuera. Made with a Spanis= h or <A HREF=3D"http://alamo-de-parras.welkin.org/history/hispanic_period/pa= rras/militaria/miquelet/frameset.html">miguelet lock </A>and a Catalan stock= , this sturdy and dependable weapon saw use for nearly 200 years on the nort= hern frontier. There were many variations in barrel length, and stock design= , but the miguelet lock was commonly used. In 1786, escopetas purchased for=20= frontier use cost the Crown 6 pesos, 5 reales, 9 grains. The Model illustrat= ed was made by Antonio Guisasola of Eibar, Spain, about 1800. It is caliber=20= .75 with a Catalan stock and a 33 1/2-inch barrel. The quality of the piece=20= indicates that it was carried by a gentleman or officer. This escopeta is in the William Renwick Collect= ion, Tucson. Photograph by BRUCE D. LINDSAY. =A9 1965, Arizona Histor= ical Foundation </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_193.b3c1bac.2a8595ae_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:32:16 EDT From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blunderbusses Thank you! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:04:46 -0600 (MDT) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! Dear List, My good friend Mike Nottingham of Loma Montana is offering a special deal to buckskinners on trips down the Muddy Mo in his keelboat. I've been with Mike on several trips and he is an excellent guide. He knows all the old trade fort locations, Lewis & Clark sites and his great, great grandfather actually owned one of the forts. If you ever wanted to see the historical section of the Upper Missouri in a truly unique way, check out Mike's web page. mrkeelboat@montana.com "Buckskinner Special These trips are for groups that want to do a primitive or historical trek. What this includes is a 4 day guided keelboat trek thru the wild and scenic upper Missouri river, shuttles to and from launch and take out site, all potable water, kitchen and cooking gear. We are able only to offer this package at this price to folks who provide their own tentage and meals (including enough for a crew of three oarsmen). The price of these trips will be $125.00 per person per day. All keelboat prices based on a 6 person minimum". Again, I make not a cent off of this deal, I just wanted all to know about Mike's neat Keelboat trips. It is the neatest way to go down the Mighty Missouri. Mike is a trapper, and longtime buckskinner and really knows his stuff! He'a also a heck of a guy! Trips are only possible during high water so check with him, he also does canoe trips. Its nice to go with an outfitter that knows about primitive trekking and knows the important sites to see for a buckskinner. You won't be sorry. Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:15:52 -0400 From: "Windwalker" <windwalker@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! If you ever wanted to see the historical section of the Upper Missouri in a truly unique way, check out Mike's web page. mrkeelboat@montana.com Thats a email address not a web address - ----- Original Message ----- From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> To: <hist_text@xmission.com> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! > Dear List, > My good friend Mike Nottingham of Loma Montana is offering a special > deal to buckskinners on trips down the Muddy Mo in his keelboat. I've been > with Mike on several trips and he is an excellent guide. He knows all the > old trade fort locations, Lewis & Clark sites and his great, great > grandfather actually owned one of the forts. If you ever wanted to see the > historical section of the Upper Missouri in a truly unique way, check out > Mike's web page. mrkeelboat@montana.com > "Buckskinner Special > These trips are for groups that want to do a primitive or > historical trek. What this includes is a 4 day guided keelboat trek thru > the wild and scenic upper Missouri river, shuttles to and from launch and > take out site, all potable water, kitchen and cooking gear. > We are able only to offer this package at this price to folks who > provide their own tentage and meals (including enough for a crew of three > oarsmen). The price of these trips will be $125.00 per person per day. All > keelboat prices based on a 6 person minimum". > Again, I make not a cent off of this deal, I just wanted all to know > about Mike's neat Keelboat trips. It is the neatest way to go down the > Mighty Missouri. Mike is a trapper, and longtime buckskinner and really > knows his stuff! He'a also a heck of a guy! > Trips are only possible during high water so check with him, he also > does canoe trips. Its nice to go with an outfitter that knows about > primitive trekking and knows the important sites to see for a buckskinner. > You won't be sorry. > Beaverboy > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/02 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:31:34 -0600 (MDT) From: <beaverboy@sofast.net> Subject: MtMan-List: www.mrkeelboat.com Windwalker, Your right, Its www.mrkeelboat.com I'm a computer idiot sometimes. Hey, Windwalker I'm sorry if I got you mad awhile back. I did not mean any disrespect to you or the list. Sometimes I missunderstand posts and sometimes people take my posts the wrong way too. I have a great respect for all woodsmen wiser than me, and respect for all woodsmen period, this you know. I hope everyone has a nice weekend! Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:11:48 EDT From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keelboat trips! When is high water? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1071 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.