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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, July 28 1998        Volume 01 : Number 106




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:50:03 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about construction of shooting pouch

where did you see such a closure for a hunting bag-- would like a picture
or a reference and i might be able to help you out---don't remember
anything along the line you are speaking of on the early bags have seen
several on bullet pouches for paper cartridges or military types--

please forward a picture or a reference where you got the idea---
contact me offline for further discussion or give me a call---REMEMBER
PEOPLE ARE PRETTY INGENIOUS SOME TIMES WHEN THEY HAVE TIME TO SPEND---
grants book on shooting bags is probably the best reference around on
shooting bags  or pouches---
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:58:58 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>I have seen pictures of several shooting bags, one in particular, that
>use a
>brass stud to hold the flap closed.  My question is about that brass
>stud.
>Has anyone had any experience with this type of pouch?  I cannot
>figure out
>how I would make  or attach that brass stud to the pouch.  Any insight
>would
>be most helpful.  Thanks.
>
>Grant
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:36:25 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about construction of shooting pouch

grant, i have seen brass buttons used for this purpose.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:30:17 -0700
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cleaning jags & material

I have never found a historical source on what was used as a cleaning
fiber or implement by western trappers.  DeVoto, Russell Osbourne etc.
simply do not mention it, or I have not looked close enough.  Did they
use patches, or a worm and tow?  Obviously the tow worm allows for a
greater use of various plant fibers, but a patch of sturdy material
could be used again and again if the fouling is washed out. There have
been threads about period cleaner that go on forever, but what about the
material and jag that they put the grizz sperm on?

Thanks
"Rustle"
Chris Sega

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:11:04 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning jags & material

Rustle,

I think double twist worms may have been more common than jags.  The same=
 tool
can be used to pull a load or swab a bore.  It's all I use.

They had scraps of cloth rags they'd once worn as a shirt (they didn't have=
 to
worry about the "blend" it was all cotton, linen, silk, hemp, or wool.  They
had scraps of hide and fur.  Tow scrubs well, leaves a few fibers in the=
 bore,
which don't seem to matter.  there are numerous wild plants that can be made
into a wadding.  It probably depended on what they had when they needed it.=
=20
Maybe someone is frugal enough to rinse out gun swabs; I can't imagine I=
 would
at any time of history.  A necessary rag -- maybe?

Back then folks didn't worry about the "approved" way they just did what
needed
doing and made do with what they had.  Some things were too insignificant
to be
worthy of recording -- back when writing and publishing required real=
 effort,
they wrote about that most significant. =20

They didn't write much about bum fodder either, but, the slang term=
 pre-dates
our period of interest; defined as soft paper for the necessary.=20

John...


At 11:30 PM 7/26/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I have never found a historical source on what was used as a cleaning
>fiber or implement by western trappers.=A0 DeVoto, Russell Osbourne etc.
>simply do not mention it, or I have not looked close enough.=A0 Did they
>use patches, or a worm and tow?=A0 Obviously the tow worm allows for a
>greater use of various plant fibers, but a patch of sturdy material
>could be used again and again if the fouling is washed out. There have
>been threads about period cleaner that go on forever, but what about the
>material and jag that they put the grizz sperm on?
>
>Thanks
>"Rustle"
>Chris Sega
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:19:37 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about construction of shooting pouch

Grant,

I have used the brass studs you described several times on pouches.
They are applied like a rivet, where the inside of the post is peened over a
washer which rides on the leather. You must locate and apply the stud in its
location before sewing up the bag, as it is virtually impossible to do it
after the bag is constructed.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:44:18 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Back in the Loop

Well, made it back from Alaska in one piece and had a great trip! Got
to see grizzlies, caribou, moose, Dall sheep, a lynx, golden eagles,
perigrin falcon, and lots of small game. Caught a few slamon and
trout. Took a hair raising Army helicopter ride thru some truely wild
country and actually got all the work that I was sent to do done.
Most important was that I got to spend some very quality time with my
son. He is going in to those middle teenage years and I don't know
how much longer he will want to hang with the old man, so this was a
good thing to do together.
Hopefully I'll have some pictures to post to my website soon.
Fort Frederick hosted the annual Military Field Days this past
weekend. From what I could see it was a success. Not as many
reenactors and sutlers as in past years, but still a descent turn
out. The weather held nice and there were several good demostrations
put on by the various units.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:24:24 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about construction of shooting pouch

where do you get these studs and what do they look like--- are you
speaking of the purse catches----that they use on modern purses---how did
you find or document them---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:19:37 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>Grant,
>
>I have used the brass studs you described several times on pouches.
>They are applied like a rivet, where the inside of the post is peened
>over a
>washer which rides on the leather. You must locate and apply the stud
>in its
>location before sewing up the bag, as it is virtually impossible to do
>it
>after the bag is constructed.
>
>Todd Glover
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:59 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

'Hawk' is asking the right questions. Why would anyone want to make
their shooting pouch look like a lady's purse? I have never seen a brass
catch of any description on any original pouch I've seen pictured or
drawn. I do not have such a device on any of the several pouches I've
used and find no need for such a device. None of my companions has a
pouch with such a device. As was said, it is amaising what folks will
invent when they have time on their hands.

You can put a catch like that on your bag if you want but the point I am
trying to gently make is that it is, on the face of the evidence, not
going to be very authentic and this list is dedicated, I believe,  to
encouraging authenticity.

I remain...
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:31:33 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: too many guns

I've got too many guns (again).  Two for sale:
1.  First Model Brown Bess, "Ranger" model w/ 36"
barrel.  Wood rammer,
all proper First model furniture, barrel
stampings, lock markings, inspector
marks etc.  This gun was done by Kit Ravenshear
from Ital. Bess.  Used some, but in great
slightly "antiqued" condition ready to go
with many extras--bayonet and scabbard, shoulder
cartridge box; belt cartridge
box, buff sling, etc.  Price:  $900 for all.
2.  English Fowler by Caywood.  42" swamped
octagon to round barrel.  Marked "london"
on top flat.  24 gauge (.58) Factory finished gun
with silver wrist plate.  Factory installed
sling swivels.  Fired twice.  Cost $1200+, price
$1100.
Contact:  Allen Chronister by e mail at
[e-mail] or 406-443-5537 eves (Mtn. time)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:28:46 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Back in the Loop

Scott writes:

<< Well, made it back from Alaska in one piece and had a great trip! Got
 to see grizzlies, caribou, moose, Dall sheep, a lynx, golden eagles,
 perigrin falcon, and lots of small game. Caught a few slamon and
 trout. >>

Scott,
Welcome back, both to here and MLML.  In light of your recent trip, I got a
question for you.

An acquaintence of mine, and an AMM member, is doing a month long survival
trek in Alaska during September.  He is taking NO food with him, only
possibles.  Don't know what part of the state he is going to.  Given the time
of the year, are there adequate edible plants to supplement an all meat diet.
Any tips you might want to offer that I can pass on.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:10:28 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
    my understanding was that he was referring to a stud similar to that on
the "St. Louis Pouch" shown on page 20 of Mountain Man's Sketchbook Vol 2.
The original ones were similar to a rivet, being peened over a washer or
burr.  Currently, Tandy sells a similar stud, differing only in that it is
threaded into a nut on the inside.  Don't like 'em like that, so on the
rare occasions when I use them, I file or turn them out of brass or copper.
    Picture a 3/16" sphere on a post 1/8" in diameter and 1/8" long.  A slit
is cut in the flap parallel to the strap sometimes with a small hole in the
center.  Alternately, think of a nail with a spherical head.  You press the
flap over the ball or nailhead.
    FWIW, I have seen similar closures used on militia cartridge boxes ca war
of 1812.
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:05:15 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Back in the Loop

OldFox,

A lot depends on his area and the time of the year. Berries are a
large consideration. The raspberries are dead ripe now in the
Fairbanks/North central areas. Salmonberry, bearberry, and
soapberry are coming on. The blueberries and highbush cranberries
will be ready in about 3-4 weeks. For plants, he should probably
consult some literature for Alaskan edibles. I won't even try to
explain some of the wild plants because it is too easy to make a
mistake.
Fish is another big consideration. There are various salmon runs
underway or getting started. Grayling are very easy to catch and will
hit most anything. Trout are abundant and some very large ones can be
caught.
A very high state of caution should be used when after salmon or
berries! That is brother bear's favorite foods and he will defend
them!
Hope this helps a little. A good book on local berries is: "The
Alaskan Berry Book". There aren't many poisonous ones, but this book
will help him out.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:08:43 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

I have only seen this type of closure on paper cartridge boxes---not on
possible bags---been thru ever reference that i can find and don't find
such a thing---being in mountain man sketch book is not documentation for
being correct---only a methodology---i know i will get some flack from
that statement----
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:10:28 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    my understanding was that he was referring to a stud similar
>to that on
>the "St. Louis Pouch" shown on page 20 of Mountain Man's Sketchbook
>Vol 2.
>The original ones were similar to a rivet, being peened over a washer
>or
>burr.  Currently, Tandy sells a similar stud, differing only in that
>it is
>threaded into a nut on the inside.  Don't like 'em like that, so on
>the
>rare occasions when I use them, I file or turn them out of brass or
>copper.
>    Picture a 3/16" sphere on a post 1/8" in diameter and 1/8"
>long.  A slit
>is cut in the flap parallel to the strap sometimes with a small hole
>in the
>center.  Alternately, think of a nail with a spherical head.  You
>press the
>flap over the ball or nailhead.
>    FWIW, I have seen similar closures used on militia cartridge
>boxes ca war
>of 1812.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:02:57 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: too many guns

the caywood gun is a fine rifle---and danny still ships a lot of them out
all of the list should know that caywood makes interchangeable barrels
and parts for his guns---he does his own locks and does all of the waxes
for his castings---he furnishes both smooth bores and rifled barrels that
fit the same gun---have known caywood for 15 years and he is a craftsman
and only will ship the highest quality of product---he has just recently
built a pistol which is very nice-- he makes his own locks, turns his own
barrels from stock or buys barrels and turns them to fit his guns---all
his parts are totally interchangeable---he does very precision work---he
is a master ingraver and his father is also outstanding making one of a
kind type guns by order---there is a article in muzzle blast that shows
some of both him and his fathers work---danny is also a purist in the
triditional sense when it comes to his work---I order parts from him all
the time and he is always prompt or if you call him he will tell you when
to expect your shipment and in over 5 years has never been late to me---i
cant say that about a lot of venders---the good thing about caywood guns
is that he makes all the parts---lock-stock and barrel---and all the
fittings---he has some of the highest quality side plates i have ever
seen with his engraveing on them---you gun makers out ther should take
note----order a couple and you will see the quality---his trigger gards
are the same--high quality and engraved---they are all wax cast from his
waxes---

guess i have mouthed off enough----few makers nowdays build a complete
gun.  I wish i had his shop---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:31:33 +0100 Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
writes:
>I've got too many guns (again).  Two for sale:
>1.  First Model Brown Bess, "Ranger" model w/ 36"
>barrel.  Wood rammer,
>all proper First model furniture, barrel
>stampings, lock markings, inspector
>marks etc.  This gun was done by Kit Ravenshear
>from Ital. Bess.  Used some, but in great
>slightly "antiqued" condition ready to go
>with many extras--bayonet and scabbard, shoulder
>cartridge box; belt cartridge
>box, buff sling, etc.  Price:  $900 for all.
>2.  English Fowler by Caywood.  42" swamped
>octagon to round barrel.  Marked "london"
>on top flat.  24 gauge (.58) Factory finished gun
>with silver wrist plate.  Factory installed
>sling swivels.  Fired twice.  Cost $1200+, price
>$1100.
>Contact:  Allen Chronister by e mail at
>[e-mail] or 406-443-5537 eves (Mtn. time)
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:24:08 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Back in the Loop

I meant Scott Allen.  Sorry if I confused anyone else.

Ted

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:24:08 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Also don't forget that back then you wouldn't want a flashy bag or else
if you were wearing it and you were on a war party trying to sneak up on
the enemy the flash from the brass studs could very well give you away or
make you an obvious target to the warriors who would want something like
that!

Ted


p.s. Scott...contact me via private e-mail as your web address seems not
to work.  Thanks.


_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:04:27 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

The pouch that I am referencing is shown in a photograph on page 117 of the
book of buckskinning II.  The caption reads "an original fur trade period
powder horn and pouch.  The horn is made from buffalo horn." and the side of
the picture reads "courtesy of the museum of the fur trade."  I believe that
the same pouch is the one scetched in the Mountain Mans Scetch Book Volume II
on page 20. I have been told, but have not seen it myself, that this pouch
also is pictured in Madison Grants book.  I do not have the book, nor can I
afford it at this time.  I would love to own it someday.  I am not saying that
I am taking the book of buckskinning as gospel as we all know that they have
their problems.  I am trying to research it as best I can at the moment.  My
persona that I am trying to create is that of a western mountain man during
the 1830's and this seemed like an appropriate pouch.  I welcome any
suggestions or comments as to styles of pouches during that period.  It seems
like most of the pouches I can find photos of are attributed to the eastern
states and no western fur trade pouches are discussed or shown.  I have
already constructed a replica of this pouch but have plenty enough leather
left to make another.  It sounds like I am a little late on the brass stud as
it should have been installed before I sewed the front on the pouch.  The
pouch has not been a waste though, as I have learned a lot as I do with any
project.  Subsequent pouches will certainly be better than this one is.  I
appreciate all your comments and look forward to additional help.  Thanks.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:31:13 -0700
From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rod tip

john kramer----   about ramrod tips, i have an old 16 ga double barrel
 shotgun that has the original ramrod(tapered).  it has the single twist
worm on one end, but is missing the tip off the other. tapers from 13/16
to 1/4 of an inch. seems alfull small to be off much use. frank

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:29:17 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
    Grant, I just read your latest post.  Don't hesitate to ask questions
about anything.  Rest assured that at least one of us has made any mistake
anyone can make.  Probably two, cuz I KNOW I have made a bunch!!!
    Anyhow, if I can be any help, don't hesitate to contact me directly.
LongWalker c. du B

PS-the bag at the MFT-not a bad bag, but there are better designs.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:25:48 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:10:28 -0500 I wrote
<snip>
>>    my understanding was that he was referring to a stud similar
>>to that on
>>the "St. Louis Pouch" shown on page 20 of Mountain Man's Sketchbook
>>Vol 2.
>>The original ones were similar to a rivet, being peened over a washer
>>or
>>burr.
<snip>
>>    FWIW, I have seen similar closures used on militia cartridge
>>boxes ca war
>>of 1812.

And at 07:08 PM 7/27/98 -0400, Hawk wrote:
>I have only seen this type of closure on paper cartridge boxes---not on
>possible bags---been thru ever reference that i can find and don't find
>such a thing---being in mountain man sketch book is not documentation for
>being correct---only a methodology---i know i will get some flack from
>that statement----
>      "Hawk"

    Boy, we talk a lot around here!...and here I go again...
    The bag referenced as being in MMS Vol II is shown in a photograph in The
Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch pg 135 #HP-86.  ( I figured more folks would
have access to the Sketchbook series than to Grant's books)  Grant
considers it to be of the period ca 1840-60.  Stated provenance is "Found
west of Rockport, Missouri and was owned by an old time trapper who retired
there."  Last I knew that bag was still in the Museum of the Fur Trade, up
in Chadron NE.
    This type of pouch closure is somewhat common around here (Nebraska).
Probably one out of ten or eleven old pouches I see has a closure similar
to this-there is one I have been trying to buy for about a month just like
this.  All of the pouches seem to have a number of things in common.  They
are all professionally made, many-maybe even most-being machine sewn.  They
are all dark, most are DYED black-not black from age.  Leather is fairly
thin (4 oz?  I really should measure one some day), not like the 8 ounce
stuff so many of us use now.
    They all seem to match the drawings from the old sporting goods catalogs.
I have never seen a bag like this that was marked, but the similarities
have led me to believe that this was a common commercial product, produced
in quantity for the trade.  Think of this style of pouch as a fitting
companion for the still-common late commercial powder horns.
    Now, I am NOT saying that these bags are correct for the pre-1840 period.
Obviously, if there were no sewing machines there were no machine sewn bags
going to rondyvoo.  But the style-a simple single pocket bag, with closure
and adjustable strap--pre-dates the Republic.
    I think most of the bags with this type of closure I have seen are
probably post War of Northern Aggression.  One text-book example of this is
in a private collection near Gordon Nebraska, accompanied by a Leman rifle.
 The bag, horn, and rifle were treaty annuity goods from 1868 or 1869.  The
bag is machine sewn.
    Another thing to keep in mind-there were a lot more farmers toting
squirrel rifles and '49ers with shotguns than there were mountain men.
That is where the  real market was for a lot of this stuff.  An awful lot
of commercial horns made in the second half of the 19 century are found
back east, even though we usually think of the market as having been on the
frontier.
    And now for a pet peeve.  Or the ravings of a madman, you decide...When
you are building up your outfit, give a great deal of thought to selecting
your references.  I know of at least two bags that were published as dating
to the Rev war that are MACHINE SEWN.  Lets use our heads here!  This is as
bad as Daniel Boone with a maxim machine gun.  Get multiple references,
don't rely on ANY single reference, no matter how reliable it may seem.
Think before you build.  It is a real pain to have to replace something
when it could have been avoided by some research.
LongWalker c. du B.  (who knows that closure dates back a couple hundred
years but has no idea if it was used as a bag closure prior to 1840!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:03:09 -0500
From: Joe Allen Jr <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lodge FS

Philip C. Rogers, Jr. wrote:
>
> Joe,
>         I might be interested in the Hatfield. Could you send a few more details this way about it if you do decide to sell it.
>
> Phil Rogers
>
Phil

The gun is about 6-7 years old but has seen almost no use in the last 3.
Started shootin flint and have a 45 Hatfield flinter I use most of the
time now.

The gun is not the top grade, but is above standard.  Wasn't happy with
the fit when I first got it, and it was restocked with wood Ted Hatfield
picked (kinda dates it there, as Ted still was head of the Co) It has a
really nice burl.  Lock was stripped and polished inside on all movin
parts for speed.

Just hate to see it hangin and not gettin used.  Will be asking around
$500 for it

Hollar if there is anything else ya want to know.

Joe Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:28:05 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

I have seen this pouch in the Mountain Man's Sketch Book,. also.  I, too, have
puzzled on how a brass stud could work as a closure.  I thought that perhaps
it was some sort of button with a shank which would make more sense for a
closure.

It is on page 20 of the sketch book and is titled, "Saint Louis Pouch" .  It
is referenced to The Museum of the Fur Trade.  The author writes, "This pouch
had only one comopartment.  it is made of black leather. The pouch is moad of
one piece and folded over for the front and flap.  The sketch has a round (and
I quote) brass stud drawn with a button hole.

Not sure this will help.

Red Hawk ([e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:24:58 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rod tip

John know exactly what you are speaking of  about the ramrod---are you
talking about the flaired end or the small end---one end has a flair that
is used to seat the wads and the other end has a brass fitting with a
threaded portion the threaded portion is for the patch grabber or to
screw in the cleaning jag or brush--dont have any here but plan on making
a few when i get next to my lathe again--- give me the rod dia and i will
make you a set when i do---might be a period of time before i can get it
to you but will make a few extra and send you one if you want----I need 2
of them right now to finish up a couple of originals that i am working on
right now---also let me know the length that you need--can make out of
yellow  brass or red brass---a lot of them were made from red brass if it
is a english shotgun.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:31:13 -0700 "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]> writes:
>john kramer----   about ramrod tips, i have an old 16 ga double barrel
>
> shotgun that has the original ramrod(tapered).  it has the single
>twist
>worm on one end, but is missing the tip off the other. tapers from
>13/16
>to 1/4 of an inch. seems alfull small to be off much use. frank
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:56:14 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

what you are talking about I believe is a rain pin which was used in the
late 1800 and used primarily on horse assessories for wagons and someone
has adapted it to use as a closure on shooting bags that were
commercially made only----NOT HAND MADE BAGS----the head that protrudes
is about 1/2 to 3/8 in dia but the base is only about 1/4 inch and is
threaded.  to inslall it you use two washers and peen it over or some are
threaded and a flat washer is screwed on the back to retain it in
place---the other partof the leather that is attached  is slit about 3/4
of a inch and because the leather is flexable it can be slipped over the
flaired head---thus forming a retainer.

I will again say"  I DONT BELIEVE THIS IS A PERIOD CLOSURE FOR A SHOOTING
BAG.   very early cartrage boxes that were made for the military have
this type of closure.  if you will look in the civil war encyclopedia
ISBN 0-7858-0467-6   page 2,thru page 10, you will find examples of the
type of closure you are speaking of.  they were also sometimes used for
attachment of martingales on saddles---see page 126 of the same
reference.

i SAW THE SHOOTING BAG IN MADISON GRANTS BOOK AND DISCOUNTED IT BECAUSE
IT WAS NOT FUR TRADE PERIOD AND IT WAS ALSO COMMERCIALLY MADE AND FROM
THE EASTERN UNITED STATES---

MY ONLY COMMENT IS IF YOU LIKE THAT TYPE OF CLOSURE HAVE A BALL YOU CAN
ARGUE THIS POINT AND STILL NEVER PROVE IT IS CORRECT OR
NOT---????????????????????????XXXXZZZZZZZZ????

BTW:  you can buy these type of closures or fittings at most saddle
stores or leather shops---"IT IS A COMMERCIAL CLOSURE "


YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:28:05 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>I have seen this pouch in the Mountain Man's Sketch Book,. also.  I,
>too, have
>puzzled on how a brass stud could work as a closure.  I thought that
>perhaps
>it was some sort of button with a shank which would make more sense
>for a
>closure.
>
>It is on page 20 of the sketch book and is titled, "Saint Louis Pouch"
>.  It
>is referenced to The Museum of the Fur Trade.  The author writes,
>"This pouch
>had only one comopartment.  it is made of black leather. The pouch is
>moad of
>one piece and folded over for the front and flap.  The sketch has a
>round (and
>I quote) brass stud drawn with a button hole.
>
>Not sure this will help.
>
>Red Hawk ([e-mail]
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:38:06 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rod tip

you can make me a set to old son  im in the need oaf  a set tell me what you
need its a 45 must b a 1/2". been busy  lots my self have you heard any thing
about ken is he alright??????. don't need the accouterments right away just
in the next few min would be fine. ha ha he he.       iron tongue

Michael Pierce wrote:

> John know exactly what you are speaking of  about the ramrod---are you
> talking about the flaired end or the small end---one end has a flair that
> is used to seat the wads and the other end has a brass fitting with a
> threaded portion the threaded portion is for the patch grabber or to
> screw in the cleaning jag or brush--dont have any here but plan on making
> a few when i get next to my lathe again--- give me the rod dia and i will
> make you a set when i do---might be a period of time before i can get it
> to you but will make a few extra and send you one if you want----I need 2
> of them right now to finish up a couple of originals that i am working on
> right now---also let me know the length that you need--can make out of
> yellow  brass or red brass---a lot of them were made from red brass if it
> is a english shotgun.
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:31:13 -0700 "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]> writes:
> >john kramer----   about ramrod tips, i have an old 16 ga double barrel
> >
> > shotgun that has the original ramrod(tapered).  it has the single
> >twist
> >worm on one end, but is missing the tip off the other. tapers from
> >13/16
> >to 1/4 of an inch. seems alfull small to be off much use. frank
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:44:49 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

attention the reenactments are coming to northern ca finally never been to
one  hope i can go to see it you guys down south are lucky. out hear the only
think of rtvs and speed boats an computers . saw it on a sine coming back
from the city yesterday

Michael Pierce wrote:

> what you are talking about I believe is a rain pin which was used in the
> late 1800 and used primarily on horse assessories for wagons and someone
> has adapted it to use as a closure on shooting bags that were
> commercially made only----NOT HAND MADE BAGS----the head that protrudes
> is about 1/2 to 3/8 in dia but the base is only about 1/4 inch and is
> threaded.  to inslall it you use two washers and peen it over or some are
> threaded and a flat washer is screwed on the back to retain it in
> place---the other partof the leather that is attached  is slit about 3/4
> of a inch and because the leather is flexable it can be slipped over the
> flaired head---thus forming a retainer.
>
> I will again say"  I DONT BELIEVE THIS IS A PERIOD CLOSURE FOR A SHOOTING
> BAG.   very early cartrage boxes that were made for the military have
> this type of closure.  if you will look in the civil war encyclopedia
> ISBN 0-7858-0467-6   page 2,thru page 10, you will find examples of the
> type of closure you are speaking of.  they were also sometimes used for
> attachment of martingales on saddles---see page 126 of the same
> reference.
>
> i SAW THE SHOOTING BAG IN MADISON GRANTS BOOK AND DISCOUNTED IT BECAUSE
> IT WAS NOT FUR TRADE PERIOD AND IT WAS ALSO COMMERCIALLY MADE AND FROM
> THE EASTERN UNITED STATES---
>
> MY ONLY COMMENT IS IF YOU LIKE THAT TYPE OF CLOSURE HAVE A BALL YOU CAN
> ARGUE THIS POINT AND STILL NEVER PROVE IT IS CORRECT OR
> NOT---????????????????????????XXXXZZZZZZZZ????
>
> BTW:  you can buy these type of closures or fittings at most saddle
> stores or leather shops---"IT IS A COMMERCIAL CLOSURE "
>
> YMHOSANT
>         =+=
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:28:05 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
> >I have seen this pouch in the Mountain Man's Sketch Book,. also.  I,
> >too, have
> >puzzled on how a brass stud could work as a closure.  I thought that
> >perhaps
> >it was some sort of button with a shank which would make more sense
> >for a
> >closure.
> >
> >It is on page 20 of the sketch book and is titled, "Saint Louis Pouch"
> >.  It
> >is referenced to The Museum of the Fur Trade.  The author writes,
> >"This pouch
> >had only one comopartment.  it is made of black leather. The pouch is
> >moad of
> >one piece and folded over for the front and flap.  The sketch has a
> >round (and
> >I quote) brass stud drawn with a button hole.
> >
> >Not sure this will help.
> >
> >Red Hawk ([e-mail]
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #106
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