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hist_text-digest        Friday, March 15 2002        Volume 01 : Number 1004



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such
-áááááá MtMan-List: 'real' modern mtn. men
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Modern Day Mtn. Men
-áááááá MtMan-List: Laura Jean's Funeral
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dogs & such
-áááááá MtMan-List: "on the road"..........
-áááááá MtMan-List: HBCo hats

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:07:06 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such

But, notably, there is no mention of the Corps eating Seaman.

B'st'rd

Jon Towns wrote:
>
>  I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY
> OUT TO THE WEST.  HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN
> GOOD EATING LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A
> GOOD SOURCE OF FAT.   LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE
> TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST.

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:37:24 -0600
From: "FrankF" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 'real' modern mtn. men

C. Kent asked,
    <I was wondering if any of you are aware of ANY fellows actually living
as
mtn. men of the RMFT full-time>

    C. I'll toss my 2 pence in here on this. I have run into some who
claimed to be such. But I either ran into them in Wal-Mart or at a
rendezvous they drove to in their pick-up trucks.
    We have had some here in the Ozarks who also claim to be such but they
usually have jobs, or pick up checks at the welfare office, cook on a
Coleman stove inside their tee-pee. They use modern medicines and go to
modern doctors, paid for by medicaid, etc.
    If they attempt to earn a living by trapping, what would they do during
the closed seasons? Break the law and possibly end up in a modern jail?
    Just not possible anymore. And those who believe themselves to be such
are deluded.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:42:07 -0800
From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Capt Lahti

Thanks for updating me on this one, I had not heard that it was =
cancelled.  I've noted that on the schedule as well as added/updated the =
other events that were sent to me in private replies.

In the infamous critter category, I believe the creature you were =
thinking of is the infamous "Snail Darter".  Even though I am a died in =
the wool wildland conservationist, I share your skepticism on the impact =
a primitive camp will have on the area, particularly one that has been =
reoccurring for some 26(?) years.

Let's hope that the environmental impact research of the Frog Hollar =
area goes much quicker than the normal surveys so you can go back to =
luring half-nekkid wimmen across the river with chocolate.... or =
whatever it is that you do for entertainment at Frog Hollar <G>

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: rtlahti=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:45 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous


  Apr. 24-28
  Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous
  POC: Dick [phone] or Bruce [phone]
  Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders
  Oakridge OR

  In case no one else on the list is aware of it, Frog Holler Primitive =
Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of HillView Res. in OR in =
April has been canceled as an official and club sponsored event.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML XMLNS:O><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2713.1100" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt Lahti</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for updating me on this one, I =
had not heard=20
that it was cancelled.  I've noted that on the schedule as well as=20
added/updated the other events that were sent to me in private=20
replies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the infamous critter category, =
I believe=20
the creature you were thinking of is the infamous "Snail =
Darter". =20
Even though I am a died in the wool wildland conservationist,=20
I share your skepticism on the impact a primitive camp will =
have on=20
the area, particularly one that has been reoccurring for some 26(?)=20
years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let's hope that the environmental =
impact research=20
of the Frog Hollar area goes much quicker than the normal surveys so you =
can go=20
back to luring half-nekkid wimmen across the river with chocolate.... or =

whatever it is that you do for entertainment at Frog Hollar=20
<G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards from Idaho</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lee Newbill</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">rtlahti</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 12, 2002 =
1:45=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Re:Frog =
Holler=20
  Primitive Rendezvous</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
  <P><BIG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Apr. 24-28<BR>Frog Holler =
Primitive=20
  Rendezvous<BR>POC: Dick [phone]<O:P></O:P> or Bruce (541)=20
  946-1341<O:P></O:P><BR>Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders<BR>Oakridge=20
  OR</FONT></BIG></P></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In case no one else on the list is =
aware of it,=20
  Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of =
HillView=20
  Res. in OR in April has been canceled as an official and club =
sponsored=20
  event.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:22:58 -0500
From: "WindWalker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Modern Day Mtn. Men

There are several I know of. Although not limited
to Muzzleloaders. Silvan Hart was a "type" although
not limited in his adventures. Years ago I visited him once.
In northern regions, there are alot living the "homesteading" life.. But not
like the so called mountain man life..
Just ole trappers trying to get by another season.
I know many, living off grid, and mostly off anything for that matter.
Living as to say 1700,s style. They are not trying to re-create as alot
thing.. To them its a lifestyle.
Making a living as the "mnt men" did now days is all but impossible..if not.
Modern Society has placed monatary values on so much
that its hard to get by as the Men of old did.
Now.... one has to have funds even to get a trapping tag
and lord setting steel aint cheap either.
>From my travels and experience, I d say there are none living the life as a
mountain man of old did, strictly from the money standpoint.. You might find
hermits from society but not thus termed Mountain Men.. nor anywhere close.
Ah you will hear from the "weekend warriors" that yes the mountain man
lives, but other than that nothing.
To live as the mountain man did, one needs a vast supply of money
nowdays...And permits...and land ect ect..
One will find longliners nowdays.. but they travel by cars and for the most
part stay in motels...
There are alot of poor folk, living like the early trappers.. but i fear
they are more of poachers than mountain men
Carrrying a griz gun and setting steel for plew dont make one a mountain
man...
It was a lifestyle they choose for one thing or another...
IF they had had other means, they might have done other things..But back
then there was not much in the way of chances..
Living like a Mountain Man.. what does that exactly entail? And how could it
be made into a lifestyle in todays society?..
I have letters of credit from my days of longlining form the Hudson Bay
Company  they went under.. So grubstaking form them is no more..Herters
used to supply trappers year to year.... now to they are gone...
Anyone can with money, buy a cabin in the far north and supplies and live
like a mountain man to a degree.. but not full time and not for long...
My thoughts
Windwalker
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Modern Day Mtn. Men


> Hello Camp,
>
> I was wondering if any of you are aware of ANY fellows actually living as
> mtn. men of the RMFT full-time...the whole shebang.  Not guys who reenact
or
> do living history...not guys who are professional trappers in modern garb
and
> sell fur for their living.  I am talking someone who is living in the
> mountains and doing it for a livelihood as the RMFT trappers did...sort of
> like the ultimate dream of most buckskinners.
>
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:57:40 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean's Funeral

I'm sorry that I have not spoken about Laura Glise's funeral before now but,
frankly, I have not felt up to it until tonight.  This will be the last post
from me on the subject.  This is directed primarily to the Brothers of the
American Mountain Men but Laura Jean only subscribed to the Mountain Man
list and Scalpdance so I have included those lists, too.

Laura Jean Rugel Glise was born July 30, 1949 in San Marcos, Texas and
passed from this life on February 16, 2002 at her home in Olympia,
Washington, taken by a vicious tumor in her head.  She faced the end without
fear or pain surrounded by her family. Her ashes were returned to her
beloved Texas and interred next to her father under a massive live oak tree
in the Rugel family plot on March 2.  These are the simple facts but they
say nothing about my good friend Laura Jean.
As a young woman Laura was given a copy of "Journal of a Trapper" by Osborne
Russell, the famous trapper and mountaineer of the 1830's.  Laura was drawn
to Russell and the adventures chronicled in his well written journal, which
she read and re-read countless times.  The book was with her for all the
days of her life.  Her near obsession with Russell led her to outline a book
in her head that involved the adventures of Osborne Russell, of American
Indian mysticism and of fantasy verging on science fiction.  That outline
evolved into a novel but work on the book ceased when Laura realized that
she knew very little about the rendezvous period of the Rocky Mountain Fur
Trade.  She dared not proceed because she was terrified of making gross
errors of fact that would tarnish not so much her own reputation but would
somehow do dishonor to Osborne Russell and all the other giants of that
time.  She refused to take that risk without help.
It was then that she ventured onto the Mountain Man Discussion List on the
internet, lurking and saying nothing.  Finally she got the courage to post a
message asking for assistance with her lifelong project...her novel.  I
answered her post and began a relationship that grew steadily as work on the
book was renewed.  I answered her questions as accurately as I could and
consulted others when I didn't know the answers.  Others became involved in
her book and made contributions to it, and Laura Jean began to make rapid
progress on the book.  Eventually she would finish whole chapters and send
them to me to read and make any suggestions.  I will tell you right now,
this whole process was fascinating and was a lot of fun.  The book "Across
the Seasons" was published in the spring of 2000 and is available from
Amazon.com
An amazing co-incidence came to light when I realized that the setting for
the novel...selected by Laura Jean in 1997.........was the Gros Ventre
valley in Wyoming that was to be the site of the 1999 American Mountain Men
national rendezvous.   I invited Laura Jean to visit the rendezvous as my
guest and she accepted instantly.  She drove from Georgia and met me on the
Popo Agie near Riverton, Wyoming and we drove in convoy to the rendezvous.
I was not pleased with her vast cargo of rendezvous "stuff" and quickly
realized that her camp would never meet AMM standards.   I told her about
the problem and had her set up her camp a full mile from the AMM camp.  I
camped alongside her and we make the long hike to camp each day without a
single complaint from her.
When she began to meet the Brothers her reaction was to be stunned.
Although she had participated in several buckskinner club rendezvous, she
was not prepared for what she encountered with the AMM.  What blew her away
wasn't the high level of authenticity practiced by AMM brothers but was,
instead, the look in the faces of the men she met....that of confidence and
resourcefulness, of honesty and dependability, of friendship and
brotherhood, of the sheer  manliness that was evident in all of us.  She
told me that this look must have been on the faces of the original
mountaineers.  She felt transported to those days and felt the presence of
those men, taking inspiration from it to finish her novel.
When she came to the 2000 rendezvous in Idaho, again as my guest, she found
the camp on her own and hiked in, not with a Yukon full of porky-do plunder,
but with her entire camp on her back, as confident as a she-bear and
authentic as just about anybody there.  Many of you met her at this
rendezvous.  She made many friends and laughed and talked late into the
starry Idaho nights.  This was the last time I ever saw her.  The tumor was
found early in 2001 and it took her down inexorably, taking her away forever
just those few days ago.
Her ashes were in an urn befitting someone with a two art degrees, sitting
on a little table at the front of the First Presbyterian Church in San
Marcos.  The old church was well suited for the task at hand........exposed
wooden beams arching high overhead and a great stained glass window beaming
multicolored light into the sanctuary.  After prayers and some words from
the minister Laura's daughter Sayward sang "The Rose" a-capela.  Tears
trickled silently all over the church as we all united with Laura Jean for
this last time.  Another soloist sang the American Shaker melody "I Danced
in the Morning" and, finally, a piper slowly marched up the aisle, his pipes
wailing "Amazing Grace" which resonated high among those great wooden beams
and crashed down around us, penetrating as only bagpipes can.  No eye was
dry, especially mine.
Later, at the cemetery, after the minister had spoken a few more words and
taken his leave I (with the permission and blessing of the family) spoke to
Laura Jean for all of us.  I told her that we all will miss her and will
hold her in our hearts and memories forever.  I brought with me several
gifts sent by  people around the country and placed them with her urn and
they were interred with it.  Afterwards,  I offered all who wanted one a
shot of Jack Daniels (again with permission of the family).  Then I hoisted
a shot for myself and sprinkled a double shot on her grave.  I have most of
that bottle left and will bring it, and the pottery shot glass used at the
cemetery, to the national rendezvous for anybody to raise a shot to Laura
Jean as well.  I carried away a handful of soil from her grave to place in a
secret spot.
Laura Jean would always ask....."Think of me when the wind blows".  With a
cold, raw March wind blowing under a clear blue Texas sky I promised that I
would.  And I will.

Lanney

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs & such

Jon Towns wrote:

I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY OUT TO
THE WEST.  HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD EATING
LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A GOOD SOURCE OF FAT.
LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST.

Lewis and Clark ate dog when it was offered to them more as a matter of
courtesy than anything--although during the winter at Fort Clatsop near
present-day Astoria, Oregon, the issue of not having sufficient fat in the
diet was a problem and they probably consumed as much dogmeat for
nutritional as for ceremonial reasons. It is true that Lewis noted that he
had grown accustomed to dog meat--when evaluating his comparison of dogmeat
to elk, it is necessary to also note that he was pretty specific: he liked
dogmeat as much as the very lean and "sour" elk meat the party was forced to
rely on during the winter at Fort Clatsop. It is also true that Clark never
became accustomed to eating dog and said so on several occasions in his
journals. It is further worth noting that Lewis's Newfoundland dog, Seaman
(erroneously referred to in some of the early Lewis and Clark literature as
"Scannon" because of a mistake made by an editor in reading Lewis's
handwriting), traveled all the way to the Pacific and back with the Corps of
Discovery. Anyone who would have suggested--even during the starving times
crossing the Bitterroots--that Seaman should have been eaten would probably
have been in significant trouble--and not just with Lewis. On numerous
occasions, Lewis noted Seaman's value in warning of possible intruders at
night, particularly of the large "grisly" 4-footed variety.

There is an old Western expression: "putting on the dog". This is a
throwback to the era when killing a fat puppy for the pot was an Indian way
of honoring special visitors. It does not suggest that Indians regularly
consumed their dogs (although in a February camp when the jerky and pemmican
had run out, the wise dog was probably one who made himself scarce). Some of
the Northern Plains tribes still continue this tradition. I have been the
recipient of this "honor" a couple of times--and, both times, knew what I
was eating. To have done anything other than partake would have been an
insult to my hosts--gracious people that I had no intention of offending.
But I'll take elk over dog any day.

As a Lewis and Clark "P.S." to the Mountain Man list: over the next month or
so I will post a schedule of Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Events as they
begin to take shape (and will update regularly as new events are scheduled).
The big "kickoff" for the Bicentennial will take place at Monticello (near
Charlottesville, Virginia) in January of 1803--but there are a number of
events even before that. I'll give dates and locations so that those of you
scattered in various parts of the country will be able to attend
Bicentennial events near you if you are so inclined.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:33:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Mitch Post <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "on the road"..........

Greetings all....I'll be "on the road" for the next
couple of weeks or month....Maybe I'll see some of you
at one event or another...I'll be in Oklahoma for the
Southwestern for a few days and then somewhere else in
Oklahoma for an F&I event....then I've got a few more
events I can't recall at the moment...
 Will check email as I can....Hope to see you down the
trail......Mitch

=====
"It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disraeli

__________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:57:24 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: HBCo hats

Does anyone know a supplier for a HBCo hat....the kinda floppy wool green hat
with a leather bill? I'm also looking for a HBCo flag....

Ymos,
Magpie

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