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hist_text-digest       Thursday, March 19 1998       Volume 01 : Number 040




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:17:41 EST
From: ThisOldFox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth

Lee Newbill writes:

> My experience with oil cloth is limited, well make that nonexistant.  Does
>  not oil cloth tend to deteriote quickly at the fold marks?  And how does
>  the wieght compare to... say 10 oz canvas?

Lee,
Charlie Webb makes some good points in his post, but there are always trade-
offs.  The guys I talked to who were using the oilcloth tarps were trekkers
and used them extensively.  For one thing, we don't have the rocks and gravel
back east, that you guys have to deal with out west.  A nice soft forest floor
isn't near as abrasive.

I was concerned about weight, and the mess of the oil as well.  The tarps I
examined had no oil that could be felt, but the guys said the cloth was still
waterproof.  There were no fold marks evident on the material, and it is
substantially less bulky than canvas.  Rather than fold it into a square, they
folded it by thirds, and then rolled it, and carried it over the shoulder like
a bedroll.  It is definitely a walk-in type shelter.  I would compare the
thickness with that of muslin.

In the final analysis, I guess it depends on your needs, the frequency of
usage, and the severity of the elements you will subject it to.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:17:39 EST
From: ThisOldFox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Info. Sources

ManyWounds writes:

> In an earlier post I mentioned how it would be nice to mention
>  specifics when answering someones question. If you know where someone
>  can locate the info they need. It would be extremely helpful and
>  expediant to include the URL, address, book publisher, etc. So they
>  don't have to post another inquiry in repetition. What may be common
>  knowledge to some will not be the same to others.

I was responding to Lee's post when I referred to my site.  He knows the url,
but you are correct in stating what may be common knowledge to some ......etc.

>  We all appreciate it
>  when there is a nice blue URL to click on or an name and address for a
>  source of something we may be interested in. I often bookmark them just
>  for reference.

Here is your nice blue URL:
 <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/sutlers.htm">The Sutler's Page</A>
I have compiled almost 150 popular sutlers dealing with the fur trade era, and
included their addresses, their webpage links, and their email addresses.  I
continue to hear from new sutlers every week and add their information.  Also,
on this page is a link to the Black Powder Shooters Resource page which has
the same info as the Sutlers page, but it deals with muzzleloading suppliers,
manufacturers and gunsmiths.  It has about 100 links.

These links are also on my main page, along with a link to my "Virtual Blanket
Trader," which is a place for you to swap, trade, or sell goods with other
skinners.
 <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/newbuff.htm">White Buffalo Society..
</A>

If you don't find what you are looking for, it's not for lack of effort on my
part.  I've tried to make it your one-stop shopping site.

Dave Kanger
LeVieuxReynard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:09:44 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers

DAVE HAD A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS ABOUT THE RELOCATION OF ELK.

A plus point to the relocation of elk is that on the buffilo river in
arkansas they relocates a buck and several doe elk  and now it looks like
there will be allowed 10 elk hunting permits in arkansas this year.  they
have a system for selection but don't know the paticulars.  i only feel
that the relocation was a good thing.
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:03:49 EST
From: SWcushing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: need help

Traphand.,
I'd be a little reluctant to use a drill for fear of ruining the barrel should
it wander. I managed to start a double patched (pre-cut&lubed) ball  awhile
back and rather than try to pull it, I used a hard wood dowel and mallet to
drive the ball down to the powder and shot it out. With the barrel un-
breeched, (de?) try it with several dowels, each longer, and drive it out the
breech end.
I havn't seated a ball without the powder yet, but there are "those that have
and those that will".......good luck!
Steve


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:11:45 EST
From: SWcushing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  MtMan-List: Re:. gunmaker named Amos Polk

Hawk,
Have looked through all my books and the only "Polk" I can find is a "John H."
mentioned in "US Martial Flintlocks" page 121...his name is engraved on an
eagle inlay.  Sorry I can't find more.....
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:15:59 -0700
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides and deer populations

Dear PJ,

I trust the person you talked to with California Fish and Game was not a
game biologist by profession, or was referring in a small local area.  The
person likely needs to consult with their Department's biologists.  Deer
habitat requirements and the history of what's happened to deer populations
in the West are well described in all textbooks on American big game
management.

Neither whitetail or mule deer thrive on grassland kinds of habitat.  They
prefer browse and forbs to grass.  In fact, during the most critical part of
their annual season -- winter --  both species really depend on browse to
survive.  The deeper the snow, the more critical browse is to a deer's
survival, and the deeper the snow the more important browse also becomes to
winter survival of elk as well.  None of the deer species are adapted well
to surviving the winter season on grass, as are bison in contrast. (You may
want to check on the history of bison in California.  You have probably been
misled about the historic importance of bison in California.)

Much of the plight of deer mule deer in the West is not only the loss of
winter range to development, but also the degradation of the remaining
wildland winter ranges by the invasion of exotic plants that reduce, or
completely eliminate, browse species.  In the Great Basin part of the
Interior West, cheat grass is the biggest culprit.  Seeds from this annual
grass came into this country with sheep imported from the Mediterranean
region.  During the last century this single annual grass species has
destroyed the browse value of over 4 million acres of Great Basin shrubland.

The history of California's deer habitat is a little more complex in that
more annual species have been involved and the change wrought by these
exotic annuals has been at work longer -- because California has been
settled longer and more intensively than other States in the West.
California is also unique in the West because its wildlife habitats include
more large areas of woodland and hardwood forest.  Perhaps, most
significantly for deer, oak woodlands with lots of acorns have historically
been very important to deer over much of California.  The acorn has
historically been a more  important winter deer food there than in most
areas of the west.  Oak-maple woodlands dominated by Gambel oak are
important through the foothill zones of much of the Interior West, but
California has many more oak species and has traditionally had much larger
wild nut crops.

"Adventures of a Mountain Man: The Narratives of Zenas Leonard" better than
any other mountain man journals describe the vegetation communities the
mountain men travelled through and lived in.  He and his group starved their
way across the Sierras in winter.  The first food source they encountered to
save them from starvation was acorns, already gathered by the Indians that
they encountered.  Of all the journal keepers, Leonard is probably the best
at noting changes in plant communities as he traveled across the west.  He
noted that California had abundant acorns and larger acorns than he'd seen
elsewhere.  Leonard also recorded his obsevations of fires intentionally
started by Indians buring the California grasslands.

I don't have the reference handy to share with you, but about two years ago
there was a fantastic article in Discover Magazine about the loss of oak
forests (and acorns) in California because of increased frequency in
wildland fires that has resulted from the conversion of vegetation types to
annual grasslands.  Paleo-ecologists  studying vegetation changes in
California are quoted in the Discover article as concluding that as a result
of the inability of native shrubs and trees to survive in the altered
ecosystem, it would now be impossible for the Indians and wildlife that once
thrived in California to ever survive there again the same way that they
once did.  As Zenas Leonard observed, the Indians knew that fire was
important to maintain oak on the landscape, but what we discovered much
later in this Century is that when annual grasses dominate the understory of
the woodland -- the fires become so frequent that oak seedlings and browse
seedlings can't survive.  The land's carrying capacity for both deer and
Indians is reduced.

Even though California deer once enjoyed the advantage of having both browse
and lots of acorns, the habitat change from invading exotics and altering
the fire cycle are the same as in less biologically productive parts fo the
arid West.  The loss of winter ranges across the West as a result of
invading exotics is getting worse at an alarming rate.  Where we see deer
adapting and increasing, is  almost always whitetails and in some cases
relatively small populations of subspecies that occupy pretty small niches,
such as blacktail deer.  In the last couple of decades, whitetail deer have
moved rapidly up the major river drainages of the
West and now provide good whitetail hunting in many areas where it was
virtually non-existent before.  But in almost all cases, there has been a
parallel decline in mule deer populations.  In terms of total deer numbers,
the small gains made by whitetail deer along river courses and around
settlements will never compensate for the decline of mule deer populations
over millions of acres of western wildlands. Montana is lucky to have
hundreds of miles of river corridors that now provide good whitetail
habitat.  Utah on the other hand, has been busily damming and drowning its
river corridors and Utahns will never enjoy similar riverine whitetail
populations.

Ironically, mule deer populations reached their peak in the West following a
hundred years of heavy cattle grazing that stimulated temporary conversion
of grassland to lower-seral shrubland communities that provided deer with
more winter browse.  That peak in mule deer populations climaxed shortly
after World War II and remained artificially high for several decades.  But
the winter range that supported those populations has now mostly been lost
due to subdivision and conversion to annual grasslands.

I'd like to believe that every cloud  has a silver lining, but in the case
of western winter ranges the silver lining seems to be for other exotic
species adapted to live on the annual grasslands, such as the Chukar
partridge.

State and Federal natural resource managers have recognized the problem, but
don't have many options in reversing the trend.  Perhaps the greatest hope
for deer winter range in the West rests with USDA Forest Service's Shrub
Sciences Laboratory in Provo, UT.  In partnerships with the Utah Division of
Wildlife Resources and the USDI Bureau of Land Management in Idaho,
scientists are developing new hybrid browse plants that have the ability to
resprout after fire -- rather than being killed by the fires that race
through the tinder dry annual grasses.  Some of the hybrids even have
superior palatability and nutritional value as deer browse.  Eventually
these plants will allow land managers to reclaim some of the lost deer
winter range, but it will be a slow and very expensive process to regain the
millions of acres already lost to cheat grass and other exotics.

Please forgive me for waxing wordy, but loss of our wildlife habitat really
gets my blood up.

Dave T.


- -----Original Message-----
From: RR1LA <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides


>Funny the slant you get depending on who you're talking too.  I was
speaking
>with a guy from the California (land of fruits and nuts)  Dept of Fish and
>Game, and he was telling me that the Mule and Whitetail Deer populations
are
>at their greatest numbers in history.  And here's the kicker:  they
attribute
>that to the demise of the Buffalo, which made room for the Deer herds,
>deforestation for lumber production and development of lands for
residential
>areas.  Basically their theory is that now there is vast amounts of habitat
>preferred by Deer, i.e. grasslands and parklands vs. plains and forest.
Also
>that the wolf, which was virtually their only natural predator has been
>eliminated.  Go figure. Seems to me the whole country used to be grasslands
>and forest, but not according to the people in charge of wildlife. Anybody
got
>a thought on this?     PJ
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:47:56 EST
From: Mtnman1449 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents

Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not accepted
at AMM encampments.  Pat Surrena #1449

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:32:38 EST
From: RR1LA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth

Dear Lee and the List, I have an oilcloth Poncho that I got from Panther
Primitives and it shows no sign of deterioration or discoloration at the
folds. Also, its doesn't feel oily, and the oil hasn't come off on any of my
cotton or wool stuff that I have worn under it.  But it sure has kept me and
on ocassion, my firewood, completely dry.   PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:37:07 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware

Wait until you try to explain to her how important it is for you to have a
gun that costs $1200 but only shoots once.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware


>Hallo Again!
>
>I'd like to thank all of those that responded to my never ending questions
>on gear and such.
>
>I know I can always count on this group to steer me in the right
>directions when I'm looking for stuff.
>
>As ya'll have probably gathered, I am in the process of replacing gear
>with documented equipment.  It's a fun, if expensive process.  I'm just
>hoping that the Missus don't toss me out afore I'm done.  She mutters a
>lot about expensive toys, but hasn't yet reached for the skillet!
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at [e-mail]
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage
>http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:51:45 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need help (stuck cleaning jag)

TRAPHAND:

I have been reading a lot of postings on advice on how to get the rod out
of the gun.  before we get all carried away lets ask a couple of
questions.  Why is the rod sticking? what caused the rod to stick? and do
i have a problem with the barrel that i do not know about?.

when a cleaning rod sticks that bad it usually means one of two things.
1.  the barrel is extremely rough and probably been bulged near the
breech or ringed by not cleaning properly or from leaving a charge in the
gun for long periods of time.  the other possibility is 2.  the drum or
the touch hole liner is extending into the bore of the gun too far and
catching the cleaning jag and needs some work to resolve the problem.
3. the cleaning jag on the rifle doesn't have proper relief to give the
patch a place to go and to always clear the touch hole liner or drum.

USUALLY IT'S A COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE, AND NOT JUST ONE PROBLEM:

getting the rod out should not be a problem:  first mix up a penetrate
lubricant and cleaner made up of  1. peroxide, 2. rubbing alchahol 3.
green dish soap. or professional strength 409 cleaner.  equal parts.

   POUR SOME OF THIS SOLUTION INTO THE MUZZLE END AND SUBMERGE THE BREECH
END UP ABOVE THE touch HOLE OR BREECH.  LET SET FOR A COUPLE OF HRS.

THIS WILL CUT THE FOULING AND SOFTEN UP ANY CORROSION AND JUNK IN THE
BORE.

if the touch hole liner can be removed then do so if not then get ready
to do some pounding.  get a steel rod a few thousands smaller than the
bore diameter.  slide down the bore from the breech end and gently tap
using the weight of the "rod not a hammer " then do the same from the
breech end.  you should get some amount of movement from one direction or
the other.  depending on which direction there is movement then use that
end to get the obstruction out.  once movement is detected iE: about 1/2
in.  soak again with the solvent and let set for about 10 or 15 min.
again use the rod and tap the obstruction from the movement end  NOTE:
DO NOT USE A DRILL TO TRY TO REMOVE IF YOU DO YOU WILL FIND YOU WILL END
UP WITH A RUINED BARREL.  WHICH IS PROBABLY WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE BUT ARE
TRYING TO SALVAGE WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.

the sticking ramrod happens on a lot of barrels that are rough or have a
bad bore in them or have the drum or touch hole liner protruding into the
bore of the barrel.  take your time repeat the process and all of a
sudden the rod will slip and can be pushed out or gently tapped.  once
the rod is out and if you have the breech out of the gun.  find the
problem and fix it. a good chain saw file and a little patience will
remove the protrusion of the touch hole liner or drum into the bore of
the rifle.

if the barrel is ringed you can fix this but if it is  bulged then you
may have a real problem. PROBABLY NEED REPLACING  if the bore is ringed
or rough get a green scower brite or rough rubbing compound and lap the
bore in the ringed area using long strokes.  NOTE: a little bit goes a
long ways.

to find if the bore is bulged put a well lubricated cleaning patch on
your jag run into the bore and push with a even pressure down the bore.
if all of a sudden the pressure is different and  the jag seems to slip
then it's a good sign the bore is bulged.  check the outside of the bore
for any hairline cracks. use a loop and inspect the barrel very close,
sometimes when a barrel swells it will also crack and it is not easily
visible to the human eye.  THIS IS DANGEROUS.  REPLACE AT ONCE.

TRAPHAND IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS DROP ME A NOTE OFFLINE OR GIVE ME A
CALL IN THE EVENINGS ABOUT 7:30 OR 8:00 YOUR TIME.  the above happens to
a lot of cheep barrels (rough bores)  or ones that have not been properly
assembled. iE(drums or touch hole liners protruding into the bore only
slightly.)  a lot of rifles you cannot get the cleaning jag past the
liner or drum so you will never see this problem or know it's there.

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:36:31 EST Traphand <[e-mail]> writes:
>i know we have all done this i got a ramrod stuck in the barrel,i know
>what
>you are going to ask.cannot do it i think the rod is wedged in the
>barrel .the
>rod must have broken into two pieces .i have pu lled the breech and
>got the
>ball out. my next thing is to drill  it out but before that i thouht i
>might
>ask for a little advice. could not shoot it out ,lost the pressure
>through the
>touch hole.this is what i am thinking of doing.  will weld drill bit
>to a
>stock of steel  and make a few sleeves so i stay center .i think i got
>around
>10 in. of wood stunk in her.if any one out there could give me a
>better idea
>would love to here it.
>
>                                                      R P
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:33:04 +0000
From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers

Manywounds wrote:

>       Winter kill is the number one cause of deer population decreases
> and always has been. Severe cold weather or large amounts of snow
> staying on the ground for weeks covering up their food supply are the
> main reason for drops in deer counts. Road kill numbers can be high
> along with coyote predation.

Here in eastern Utah our deer's worst predator is the lion.  We have an over
population lions which the farmers are now having problems with.   Two
Muzzle loader hunts ago while hunting in Browns Park I came upon a secluded
spot of large junipers. In this almost tunnel like spot my partner and I
found 30 yearling buck skeletons, all apparent lion kills. The Fish and
wildlife has finally upped the Lion harvest for this area.

Forrest Smouse  #1691
LaPoint, Utah

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:21:45 EST
From: RR1LA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides and deer populations

Dear Dave, Forrest and the others who responded on this thread: First let me
say thank you, and that you've again proven the immense value of this forum.
I had a gut feeling this Fish and Game type was nuts, and you've certainly
given me the information I was seeking.  What's so sad is that it seems the
hunters, biologists and naturalists possess this information, but many of the
people in charge of protecting, preserving and strengthening the indigenous
wildlife don't have a clue.  Also, thanks for providing this pilgrim with
resources that will allow me to do further study.   PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:35:47 -0600
From: "Pamela Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents

Thanks Pat for the heads up on AMM encampments! I will bring my piece of
"roll up" canvas or sleep by the fire. I don't think anyone can complain
about a 6by6 piece of smoked canvas. Sure hope I don't see any nylon sewn
skins either.
YellowFeather
AMM # 251

- ----------
> From: Mtnman1449 <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents
> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 11:47 PM
>
> Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not
accepted
> at AMM encampments.  Pat Surrena #1449

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:04:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Mtnman1449 wrote:
> Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not accepted
> at AMM encampments.  Pat Surrena #1449

One of the reasons I finally settled on the 10x10 diamond, it, like the
Visa card, is accepted everywhere<G>

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage
http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:10:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
> Wait until you try to explain to her how important it is for you to have a
> gun that costs $1200 but only shoots once.

Already been down that road<G>

In a rare moment of brilliance, I bought the Missus a new car to replace
her clunker.  According to the not-so-meticulous his-n-her balance sheet I
keep, I am now $7000 behind Miss Becky in spending and must catch up!<BG>

Now.... where is them catalogs <VBG>

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage
http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:59:37 EST
From: JFLEMYTH <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show

Hello the net!

Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms
and Pioneer Crafts show this week end?  The guy I was going with had to
cancell on me, but I will still be there.  Five buildings, all pre-1890's...
How could I pass up that?!

Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I should
make sure to look up?

If anybody wants more info on the show, its sponsored by Yankee Doodle Muzzle
Loaders, Inc.  There number is [phone].

John Fleming

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:15:32 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents

I understand that it's the smoking that makes leather waterproof, does
this work for canvas too?  I'm in the process of making a 10 x 10
diamond fly out of a painters canvas.  From what I read you have to be
careful about using oilcloth due to flamablity.  The trekers page I got
the instruction from sounded like they would use oilcoth for a tarp type
floor.

>Thanks Pat for the heads up on AMM encampments! I will bring my piece of
>"roll up" canvas or sleep by the fire. I don't think anyone can complain
>about a 6by6 piece of smoked canvas. Sure hope I don't see any nylon
>sewn skins either.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:42:19 EST
From: CT OAKES <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth

In a message dated 98-03-17 23:28:17 EST, you write:

<< concerned about weight, and the mess of the oil as well.  The tarps I
 examined had no oil that could be felt, but the guys said the cloth was still
 waterproof.  >>

One other thing to be concerned about with Oil Cloth is fire.  One of the
members of our club has a custom made .62 smoothbore with the name Smokey.  He
had made a diamond shelter out of Oil Cloth (done the Mark Baker way).  Well
he had all his gear under the diamond and went on a walk about after
breakfast.  A spark from his fire pit blew up on the shelter and it went up in
flames FAST.  The fact that it burned so fast is probably why his gun is
Smokey and not Charcoal.  But we should all remember when using period
materials around fires that cotton, fringed linen (cuffs on hunters frocks)
and oil cloth are all extremely flamable.  Not saying don't use them, just
show respect.  My wife teaches open hearth cooking at a major museum and her
research shows that one of the most common causes of death amony women was
burns from skirts catching on fire over the cook fire.  Remember burns caused
infections and there was no sulfa or antibiotics back in the periods we
recreate.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:01:33 -0500
From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show

JFLEMYTH wrote:
>
> Hello the net!
>
> Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms
> and Pioneer Crafts show this week end?  The guy I was going with had to
> cancell on me, but I will still be there.  Five buildings, all pre-1890's...
> How could I pass up that?!
>
> Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I should
> make sure to look up?
>
> If anybody wants more info on the show, its sponsored by Yankee Doodle Muzzle
> Loaders, Inc.  There number is [phone].
>
> John Fleming

 John,
 most of the larger sutlers will be on hand. its a real good trade show.
 some real good things are there but you must get there early on sta. to
get the real good stuff it go's quick. found some real good buys and
hard to find items in the past. stop by and say hi if you want i will be
in room #1 up by the stage. dyers moc's at one end northwest traders at
the other. hope to see you there.

                                 paul mueller

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 1998 10:29:06 -0700
From: "Pat Quilter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re Smoking Tent Canvas

                      Re Smoking Tent Canvas
With regards to
 <I understand that it's the smoking that makes leather waterproof, does this
work for canvas too?>
Smoking leather (as in brain tanning) does not make it shed or repel water, it
only keeps the leather from turning back into rawhide when wet. In other words,
smoked brain tan soaks up water like a sponge, but it retains its flexibility after
drying (with a few shakes, perhaps, like a chamois). HOWEVER, I have noticed
that a small fire inside an untreated canvas shelter does seem to appreciably
retard the leakage. However, this is after some time in the rain, during which
the canvas fibers have swollen anyway.
   I use an untreated painter's drop cloth for a shelter. It is light, simple,
and presumably authentic. If you rig it correctly it will shed water fairly
well. You have to avoid sags and pouches, and anything touching the inside such as
a stick or rope will wick the water through (DON'T tie your moccasins to the
ridge-rope to dry) . If you rig it with fairly steep sides (a wedge with
ridgepole or rope, or rather steep diamond pattern) you can get by with only a
few drips. Old journals refer to spare blankets draped over "bowers" and the
like. I suppose that people travelling in weather in the old days just expected
to get wet, at least in the feet and extremities. Those planning to stay put for
a while presumably found or made a decent shelter from available materials.
Freezing after rain is the only situation where one's health and life is truly
threatened -- in these cases, every precaution should be taken to avoid getting
soaked, such as holding up in an improvised shelter when the rain starts. A
modern camp where we attempt to use travelling-style gear to stay put for a week
or so, usually with restrictions on how much we can exploit the surroundings, is
a bit of a stretch. I will admit that I back up my leaky shelter with one modern treated
piece of canvas which goes around my blankets (and is all I need for real
miminal situations). This protects me from rising dampness while sleeping;
otherwise I rather prefer to see the ground inside my shelter. I have done
without this cloth, but any wind cuts through naked blankets unless you have a
buffalo robe or some other windbreak. I would personally at least have another
untreated piece of canvas as a bedroll cover. So smoke your canvas if you feel
like it, it will at least look more used, and permeate your house with reminders
of past camps. I personally don't care for the weight and odor of oil
treatments, and they usually wind up leaking somewhere anyway.
Yr Ob't S'vt
Pat Quilter

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:37:42 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons (longish)

"David Tippets" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>When you get time to sharing your information on capotes, it would be
interesting to see what period first-source references you have that: First,
use the word capote, and second, use the word capote to describe a coat
without a hood.<

Paul Mueller already posted the quote I was going to use as an example of
the word capot used to explicitly describe a coat without a hood. (The quote
he gave is from F. L. Robin's _Voyages dans l'interieur de la Louisiane, de
la Floride occidentale et dans les Iles de la Martinique et de
Saint-Domingue pendant les anne'es 1802, 1803, 1804, 1805, et 1806_, vol. 2,
p. 103, cited in Francis Back's article 'The Canadian Capot (Capote)' in the
_Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, 27.3 (Fall 1991), pages 4-15. I highly
recommend the article--it was a great help in my own research.) Other
references that describe capots do not include hoods as part of the
description, which suggests that hoods were not strongly connected with
people's ideas of what made up a capot. For example, Peter Grant's
description of the capots worn by Natives in the Manitoba area in 1804 says
they wear "a molton capot, or coat, in the Canadian fashion, which comes
down to the knees ; a gun screw or a small peg of wood is sufficient to
fasten it about the breast and serve in place of buttons ; they tighten it
around the waist with a worsted belt [sash]." (Masson 2:317) It is true,
however, that there are other quotes which mention hoods as part of the
description of capots. (By the way, the gun screw is actually a gun worm,
and it seems to work pretty well--you just screw it into the cloth at
whatever spot you want, depending how high up you want the capot to be closed.)

Not all of Francis Back's historic examples use the word capot(e), but it's
clear they are all describing the same article of clothing. Compare F.L.
Robin's & Peter Grant's descriptions with Baroness von Reidesel's 1776
description of "a sort of cassock made of woolen blankets, from which the
red and blue borders had not been removed, and which were heavily trimmed
with ribbons" (Back, 10).

>Though I haven't quantified and crunched the numbers, it's my impression
that folks in the Central Rockies were just as likely to refer to coats as
frocks, overcoats, tunnics, etc. as they were to call them capotes.  Since
you have looked at more NWC records than most of us -- you might give us
some idea if the use of the word "capote" is more common amongst the
Montreal-based traders, for whom French was the most common language.<

I don't know if the word 'capot' was more commonly used by North West
Company employees than it was by American Fur Company folks; I'm not
familiar with the American outfit. However, the Nor'westers definitely used
the term 'capot' a great deal, both in lists of trade goods and in
descriptions of the clothing of both men and wintering partners. (They also
sometimes mention
'blanket coats', which most people accept as meaning the same thing.) 'Great
coats' occur quite rarely (I've found only 2 cases), and 'coats' are only
slightly more common. The HBC used only 'coats', so far as I've found.
BTW, it's important to remember that French was the daily language of the
North West Company. NWC journals have many French terms and phrases.  There
was also a specialized fur trade vocabulary; words in French and English had
meanings particular to the fur trade, which had to be explained to
outsiders. (Some examples : 'embarassed' means to be inconvenienced by low
water; 'march' means to travel by canoe or any other means; 'encampment' is
just a place to spend the night, with or without a tent; 'degraded' means to
have to stop travelling due to bad weather; 'trenches' or 'tranches' are ice
chisels.)

>If you look at the four examples
recorded by James Hanson and Kathryn Wilson in volumes 1 and 2 of the
Mountain Man's Sketch Book, you'll see that every example that they
documented was double breasted, having from 8 to 10 buttons.<

I know (*sigh*)... You may recall that one of my first postings on this
thread was to ask folks if they knew where Hanson & Wilson's information
came from (since they provide no references). My research deals with capots
from 1774 to 1821. I strongly suspect that there was a change in fashions
around 1825 toward buttoned capots. I consulted a number of pictorial
sources (sketches & paintings of Quebeckers and voyageurs by Peter
Rindisbacher, James Heriot, John Halkett, Capt. Basil Hall, William
Richards) and the most common coat shown being worn by the men was fastened
by a sash, without buttons. Francis Back's article, which deals primarily
with capots prior to 1780, also says that most capots had no buttons. On the
other hand, an engraving of Rev. John West visiting the Indians of Red River
(Winnipeg area) around 1826 shows him wearing a long, calf-length coat which
is fastened with a double row of buttons. (His guide? interpreter? dogsled
driver? is also shown; he wears a knee-length coat which is fastened just
with a sash. He's also wearing an 'effigy hood'.)

>A narrow sleeve opening commits you to use the
plunge-style mits common amongst the natives of arctic and subarctic.<

And also here in Canada? :-) Again, that huge open sleeve just isn't shown
in the pictures that I mentioned above. Sleeves did sometimes have cuffs,
though.

>I'll try to get the money in the mail today for a subscription to Northwest
Journal.  Has the issue with your capote article already gone to press?<

At long last it has made it to print, and is in the mail today. (Hooray! I
was short on time because I was busy stuffing envelopes.) You can refer to
it for much more detailed information on capots. Now it's down to the grind
for vol. 14!

As for the word "capot(e)" and its meaning before 1821 : The best source of
information on this would be a pre-1821 French dictionary published in
Quebec or Louisiana. (No, I don't know of any.) Modern dictionaries, and
dictionaries published in France before 1821 will not be as helpful--French
speakers in North America have been linguistically isolated for a very long
time. You know how we don't speak the same language here as the folks in the
U.K.? (Lift, boot, 'knock up' are a few examples.) Well, I understand that
the differences between Quebec French and the French spoken in France are
even greater. In fact, until recently Quebec French used to be called
'joual', after the Quebecois word for 'horse' ('cheval' in France). So
looking at a modern French or English dictionary is not going to be very
helpful when you're trying to find out for certain what a fur trade word
meant before, say, 1821. An example : I was reading the French journal of
Francois Victor Malhiot, a NWC trader in the Lake Superior region around
1804 (at long last, my classroom French became useful!). Malhiot repeatedly
calls  Natives 'cra^bles' (especially when he's upset with them). I checked
a number of modern French-English dictionaries, the Petit Larousse French
dictionary, and did an online search (there are some French dictionaries on
the web). Nothing. So clearly this is an obscure, obsolete, or very
scurrilous term. By the way, the Petite Larousse says that a 'capote' is a
hooded coat ('manteau a' capuchon'), infantryman's coat ('manteau des
troupes a' pied'), or a tarp to cover a car ('couverture mobile d'une
voiture'). The term for condom is 'capote anglaise' (defined as 'preservatif
masculin'). Reminds me of the old term 'French safe'!

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

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