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From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins Date: 08 Jan 1998 06:03:10 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1BFB.18A43D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- : ---------- : : From: Jon P. Towns amm944@bigfoot.com : : To: : : Subject: re:Fwd: MtMan-List: Straw at mountain man doing's : : Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:47 AM : : : : 90 % of the public won't say any thing. But people are not stupid. They : : : know what straw is and I have heard people ask did Mt men carry straw? : : Now my wife and I are both 56 years old she has a terrible back. Myself : : I'm just broke and we take and use extra blankets to lay on. Now I was : : concerned that my new bride wouldn't be able to camp primitive. Boy was : I : : fooled she said that she slept better on the ground then in our motor : : home. Which is the pits even on my back which is fair. Now my hips are : : sore after a week or more because I sleep on my side. But a small sheep : : skin helps.. I know people that are bed ridden use them to keep bed sores : : : down. So why would you even want to tote along straw anyway. Its a mess : : : to clean up and just another thing to carry in. Now some of us purist to : : : quote you don't just drive in and drop our gear in most functions we : carry : : our gear in on our backs or a Mormon cart or even a wheel borrow. I know : : : Mt men didn't use wheel borrows, and carts but it is easier to tell the : : public or keep the questions down and most of the time we are all set up : : when the public sees us. Now as an AMM member I have 1000's of hours of : : research and working on our gear after 20 years its hard for me to see an : : : old brother come carrying his bed roll who's in his late 70's who never : : complains about how hard it is to lay on the ground. I just couldn't : look : : at my self in the morning if I complained about how hard it is to conform : : : to the old ways I thought that is why we are doing this is to experience : : what the old brothers did. So enjoy your straw and cleaning up the : mess. : : Later Purist Jon Towns : Aux Ailments de Pays! : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1BFB.18A43D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> ---------- : ---------- : = : From: Jon P. Towns amm944@bigfoot.com : = : To: : : Subject: re:Fwd: MtMan-List: Straw at mountain man = doing's : : Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:47 AM : : : : 90 = % of the public won't say any thing. But people are not stupid. = They : : : know what straw is and I have heard people ask = did Mt men carry straw? : : Now my wife and I are both 56 = years old she has a terrible back. Myself : : I'm just broke = and we take and use extra blankets to lay on. Now I was : : = concerned that my new bride wouldn't be able to camp primitive. = Boy was : I : : fooled she said that she slept better on = the ground then in our motor : : home. Which is the pits even = on my back which is fair. Now my hips are : : sore after a = week or more because I sleep on my side. But a small sheep : : = skin helps.. I know people that are bed ridden use them to keep bed = sores : : : down. So why would you even want to tote along = straw anyway. Its a mess : : : to clean up and just another = thing to carry in. Now some of us purist to : : : quote you = don't just drive in and drop our gear in most functions we : carry = : : our gear in on our backs or a Mormon cart or even a wheel = borrow. I know : : : Mt men didn't use wheel borrows, and = carts but it is easier to tell the : : public or keep the questions = down and most of the time we are all set up : : when the public sees = us. Now as an AMM member I have 1000's of hours of : : = research and working on our gear after 20 years its hard for me to see = an : : : old brother come carrying his bed roll who's in his late = 70's who never : : complains about how hard it is to lay on the = ground. I just couldn't : look : : at my self in the = morning if I complained about how hard it is to conform : : : to = the old ways I thought that is why we are doing this is to experience = : : what the old brothers did. So enjoy your straw and = cleaning up the : mess. : : Later Purist Jon Towns = : Aux Ailments de Pays! : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1BFB.18A43D80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins Date: 08 Jan 1998 10:37:14 -0600 JON P TOWNS wrote: > So why would you even want to tote along straw anyway. Its a mess > to clean up and just another thing to carry in. You make good points for the purists. For your run-of-the-mill buckskinning rendezvous I have seen some use hay. Gives a nice smell to the bed. Since around here most rendezvous are held on ranch land, the land owner is glad to have the extra feed for the cattle, so we leave the hay there. I tried it once, but found out it is best to leave the bed intact until just before you leave. We had to deal with several hay-eating "spotted buffalos" in our camp while we were trying to pack up our gear. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: straw beds Date: 08 Jan 1998 12:06:39 -0800 Iron Burner has hit the nail on the head, for all the city folks....theres a big difference between STRAW and HAY and there is differences in the hays as well. Straw is about the last thing that should be taken to a 'Voo or camp. Straw is the shaft that is left standing after the grain crop has been combined (cut, for the city people). This is then cut and baled and sold as straw. It is used for many purposes, but not for ANIMAL FEED.It has very little nutritional benefits. It will have to be picked up and removed after most rendezvous are over, although it does break down in time. Various hays work just as good for bedding and like Iron Burner stated, it can be left at the site in most cases as it will be eaten by either domestic stock or wild critters.(sometimes before you you want them to!) I prefer to use one of the various grass hays. These are available at most feed stores for those living in the "Asphalt Countryside". Ask for grass hay, not alfalfa. Timothy, Oats and Peas or just a regular pasture mix grass hay will do. Alfalfa is just "TOO STICKY" to lay on, but will work for bedding. I prefer Timothy hay. For those of you that do a lot of 'Voo's each year, at our ranch in Fort Rock, Oregon.....our baler puts 'em up in 1/2 ton bales! That would last you awhile!! Or you could buy a 1/2 ton round bale and just roll it out at rendezvous and sleep a whole group on it! Grass hay around here runs between $1.50 & $2.00 a bale ($1.00 a bale if rained on) Timothy is a kind of specialized hay grown for the horse market. It makes great bedding and runs about $4.50 a bale. Our 28% protein alfalfa here at Fort Rock is going for $130.00 a ton this year. Yup, I imagine them "Hardcore Boys" not only go barfoot in the snow and drink muddy water, but they also sleep in a hollow log and use a rock for a pillow! Oh well, if'n thats how their stick floats, it's fine with me. For me, I think I'll use a little Timothy hay.......just for the critters to eat ofcourse, not for my comfort, O.K.? As for...did Mountain Men carry straw around with them? The answer is, ofcourse NOT! it was gathered as needed from the areas where they camped as was pine boughs, etc. I reckon a 12 lb. rifle and a fifty lb. beaver was enough to carry on a daily basis! Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bed Hardware ???? Date: 08 Jan 1998 21:54:02 EST Just out of curiosity. (beware that phrase !!!!) Talking about bring a period bed to rendezvous, does anyone know if plans are available for Lafayette's Travelling four post bed that's shown in Collector's Illustarted Encyclopedia of the American Revolution ? I am not a member of the AMM although I've been a buckskinner for a long time. Is it okay to post to this board ??? If not, hope I did not offend anyone and HAPPY NEW YEAR either way. Thanks JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: straw beds Date: 08 Jan 1998 23:12:21 -0600 Here in Colorado and in Wyoming, Utah, and Montana hay must be approved for use at Rendezvous if you hold the event on US Forest Service land. They do not want weed seed from foreign vegetation being seeded at various mountain sites. It seems to be the way of the future. M. Branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins Date: 09 Jan 1998 05:58:58 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1CC3.AD3E8CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I never thought about the troubles camping in a pasture. Do you know the similarities between a Old Mt Man and a buffalo turd? Give up? The Older they get the easier they are to pick up. Later Jon T purist. Ps I never thought about the weed seeds. I pay a noxious weed tax on my Ranch land. : From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins : Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 8:37 AM : : JON P TOWNS wrote: : : > So why would you even want to tote along straw anyway. Its a mess : > to clean up and just another thing to carry in. : : You make good points for the purists. : : For your run-of-the-mill buckskinning rendezvous I have seen some use : hay. Gives a nice smell to the bed. Since around here most rendezvous : are held on ranch land, the land owner is glad to have the extra feed : for the cattle, so we leave the hay there. I tried it once, but found : out it is best to leave the bed intact until just before you leave. We : had to deal with several hay-eating "spotted buffalos" in our camp while : we were trying to pack up our gear. : : Iron Burner ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1CC3.AD3E8CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">I never thought about the troubles = camping in a pasture. Do you know the similarities between a Old = Mt Man and a buffalo turd? Give up? The Older they get the = easier they are to pick up. Later Jon T purist. Ps I never = thought about the weed seeds. I pay a noxious weed tax on my = Ranch land. : From: Glenn Darilek = <llsi@texas.net> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man = Doins : Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 8:37 AM : : JON P = TOWNS wrote: : : > So why would you even want to tote along = straw anyway. Its a mess : > to clean up and just another = thing to carry in. : : You make good points for the = purists. : : For your run-of-the-mill buckskinning rendezvous I = have seen some use : hay. Gives a nice smell to the bed. = Since around here most rendezvous : are held on ranch land, the = land owner is glad to have the extra feed : for the cattle, so we = leave the hay there. I tried it once, but found : out it is = best to leave the bed intact until just before you leave. We : = had to deal with several hay-eating "spotted buffalos" in our = camp while : we were trying to pack up our gear. : : Iron = Burner </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1CC3.AD3E8CC0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Finishing wood bowls Date: 09 Jan 1998 09:48:14 -0600 Winter being a good time to do such things, we have a number of wood bowl aquired during the summer and I would like to strip them and finish them with safety and period in mind. Any hints out there? Thanks, Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: straw beds Date: 09 Jan 1998 07:40:00 -0800 I have noticed in Stuart's journal that what he called straw and what we call straw are two different things. His idea of straw is something that grows in river bottoms or along the margin of rivers. He mentioned that some it was 5 feet tall. He also took notice of an indian dwelling that was made of it. He also talks about grass, buffalo grass, etc. so I don't think it is a type of grass. It sounds like it may have been some kind of reed. Any ideas? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins Date: 09 Jan 1998 09:51:41 -0600 JON P TOWNS wrote: >. . . camping in a pasture . . . When Europeans first came to Texas, most of the area was expansive grasslands, and in the 1820-1840's the same held true. Now most of the prairie is gone from around here (Central Texas) because the white man put out the prairie fires that killed young trees. So now, trees are the norm, with juniper and mesquite being the curses of the ranchers. So technically speaking, some rendezvous are held in pastures, but they do not fit the usual image of a field with nothing but grass. The rendezvous that I spoke of "spotted buffalos" grazing on my hay bed cushion happens to be the site of the 1998 Southwestern Regional Rendezvous, which is a very nice site for a rendezvous. Well this is a lot of verbage only to shameleslessly plug the SWRR for my friends. See: http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus/swrr.htm Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 <Casapy123@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: straw at Mt Man Doins Date: 09 Jan 1998 12:09:13 EST I've camped on the ground for many years, from Boy Scouts to family outings and lots of time at Mountain Man doin's. I've slept on air mattress, thinsulite pads, straw, foam rubber, just about every contrivance you could think of trying to be comfortable. Believe it or not, I sleep best right on the ground with hip holes and shoulder holes scooped out to conform to my body. I often carry a sheep hide with its thick wool still attached, to place under my upper body. But the use of hip holes will make all the difference in the world when sleeping on the ground. Without them, my back aches all night as gravity tries to flatten me in places I weren't meant to be flattened. If you've never taken the time to scoop some hip holes, try this before you go to the trouble of luggin hay or straw. Jim Hardee AMM #1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 (FAX) Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <SEGUNDO@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Finishing wood bowls Date: 09 Jan 1998 22:32:21 -0500 Just sand the down lightly and the oil with either mineral oil or good olive oil, either of which won't go rancid on ya. Medicine Bear Jim Lindberg wrote: > Winter being a good time to do such things, we have a number of wood > bowl aquired during the summer and I would like to strip them and finish > them with safety and period in mind. Any hints out there? > > Thanks, > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa > { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | > \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, > |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 10 Jan 1998 01:34:50 -0800 Hollo the cabin, Can anyone help me with the titles of two films? The first is about Hugh Glass, I think it stared John Houston as the trappers group leader. The other was about a French/Canadain ? fur trapper staring Oliver Reed. I saw these films years ago and can't recall the titles. Thanks to anyone who can help. Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry R. Weisz" <abtbirds@starnetinc.com> Subject: MtMan-List: need info Date: 10 Jan 1998 08:05:50 -0800 > can someone tell me how to change the address this list uses to send > me messages? I have a new one starting Sunday and do not want to miss > anything. I apologize for wasting bandwidth with this but I can't find my instruction sheetLarry (Littlehawk)Old abtbirds@starnetinc.com New abtbirds@owc.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Finishing wood bowls Date: 10 Jan 1998 00:40:09 -0800 Jim Lindberg wrote: > > Winter being a good time to do such things, we have a number of wood > bowl aquired during the summer and I would like to strip them and finish > them with safety and period in mind. Any hints out there? Greetings Jim, Recalling way back to my grade wood shop school days, I made a wooden laminated cutting board which makes a lousey bowl, but I degress. Anyway we heated cooking oil to just about smoking temp then rubbed in two or three coats of it, letting the oil soak in then wipeing the surface dry between coats. hope this helps. Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: khall@spacetech.com (Kenneth Hall) Subject: MtMan-List: (fwd) Clothing patterns and such Date: 11 Jan 1998 00:38:31 GMT Saw this on the mlml list, the url is interesting especially to those living in Mass. Enjoy, /Ken On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:27:57 -0500 (EST), bconner@cybercom.net (Bruce Conner) wrote: >Just a heads-up for those of you able to get to the Stow, Massachusetts >area this month and or next month. Have a look at >http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/%7Erjj/sewing.html >There are a number of lectures and workshops (apparently) directed = towards >the reenactors who do the BATTLE Road stuff in Concord. If you are = looking >for info on Rev War clothing, this looks like a good bet. I'm going to = a >few of them for sure! > > > >Bruce Conner >bconner@cybercom.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 10 Jan 1998 21:48:02 -0600 At 01:34 AM 1/10/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hollo the cabin, > > Can anyone help me with the titles of two films? The first is about >Hugh Glass, I think it stared John Houston as the trappers group leader. >The other was about a French/Canadain ? fur trapper staring Oliver Reed. >I saw these films years ago and can't recall the titles. Thanks to >anyone who can help. > >Regards, > >Terry Smith > The first one is probably "A Man In The Wilderness" starring Richard Harris? Only partly the Hugh Glass story as they haul a ship over the mountains. Don't know on the second there have been so many. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 10 Jan 1998 23:08:27 EST The one with John Houston playing an Andrew Henry type character, and the Hugh Glass character named "Bass",is entitled "Man in the Wilderness." Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russell W. white" <ruswhite@netzone.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 10 Jan 1998 21:35:14 -0800 First off, some FYI. http://us.imdb.com/ is a Internet Movie DataBase. I found it ( the Internet Movie DataBase) through infoseek(one of the search engines to help you try to find things on the Internet), and when I went to it I did a search on Oliver Reed. In 1966 he did a movie called "The Trap" which might also have been known as "The Mad Trapper", about a French Canadian trapper who wants to buy a wife. I didn't do a search on the second movie, but It starred Richard Harris, who gets mauled by a griz and is left to die, but doesn't. I think that it's either "Man in the wilderness" or "A man called Horse" (I figure someone will know and if they don't the the movie database should cover it. Russ "Quiet Man" White At 01:34 1/10/98 -0800, tigrbo1 wrote: >Hollo the cabin, > > Can anyone help me with the titles of two films? The first is about >Hugh Glass, I think it stared John Houston as the trappers group leader. >The other was about a French/Canadain ? fur trapper staring Oliver Reed. >I saw these films years ago and can't recall the titles. Thanks to >anyone who can help. > >Regards, > >Terry Smith > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Russell W. white" <ruswhite@netzone.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 10 Jan 1998 21:48:09 -0800 First off, some FYI. http://us.imdb.com/ is a Internet Movie DataBase. 1971, "Man in the Wilderness", Richard Harris is Zachary Bass, and John Huston is Captain Henry. I cheated, I went back and did another search. Quiet Man ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Mox's Date: 11 Jan 1998 06:50:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1E5D.33220020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought everyone would be interested in this one. Later Jon T check out this one http://www3.sympatico.ca/michel.viger/canadian-boot.htm ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1E5D.33220020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">I thought everyone would be interested = in this one. Later Jon T check out this one = http://www3.sympatico.ca/michel.viger/canadian-boot.htm </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD1E5D.33220020-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS <J2HEARTS@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:52:28 EST The first one I think your referring to is "Man in the Wilderness" staring Richard Harris and John Huston. It appears to be VERY loosly based on the Glass incident with the bear and being left alone to die by Bridger and _________(what's his name). Watched it off and on last night. Can't help on the second one. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth David Sherlock" <sherloc3@pilot.msu.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 11 Jan 1998 20:46:13 -0500 (EST) "The Trap" with Oliver Reed is one of my favorite wilderness movies. However, the next time you watch it pay particular attention to the scene when the trapper's wife is running through the woods with her lantern. You can see the electric cord disturbing the snow behind her. The title "The Mad Trapper" reminds of the Charles Bronson movie "Death Hunt" where Bronson was mistaken for a killer that murdered trappers for the gold in their teeth as he was chased through the Northwest Territories by Lee Marvin. Another epic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 11 Jan 1998 14:29:21 -0800 Hello the cabin, Many thanks to Russ White, John T. Kramer, Todd Glover and Ken Dawe for taking the time to unearth the movie titles I was looking for. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: skip and ginny eckartz <skinny@carol.net> Subject: MtMan-List: indiana rendevous Date: 11 Jan 1998 20:41:53 -0500 do you know where I can get informatiion on the Freedom Indiana rendevous? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer" <wwwrendezvous@geocities.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 12 Jan 1998 01:42:25 -0700 >"The Trap" with Oliver Reed is one of my favorite wilderness movies. However, >the next time you watch it pay particular attention to the scene when the >trapper's wife is running through the woods with her lantern. You can see the >electric cord disturbing the snow behind her. Speaking of picking out small visual mistakes in films, "Last of the Mohicans" is a favorite of mine, but... Toward the end of the film, just after Maqua cuts Uncas' throat and throws his body over the cliff, Nathaniel is shown running through a passage in the "rocks" - rocks which ripple when bumped (left side of the screen) like a piece of painted canvas! Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BDP <bpowell@kiva.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: indiana rendevous Date: 12 Jan 1998 07:52:02 -0500 skip and ginny eckartz wrote: > > do you know where I can get informatiion on the Freedom Indiana rendevous? You should be able to find that info at; http://www.nmlra.org/nat_shoots.htm This is the URL for the NMLRA national shoots information page. Frindship, IN is the headquarters for the NMLRA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 12 Jan 1998 09:37:18 -0600 (CST) >Hollo the cabin, > > Can anyone help me with the titles of two films? The first is about >Hugh Glass, I think it stared John Houston as the trappers group leader. >The other was about a French/Canadain ? fur trapper staring Oliver Reed. >I saw these films years ago and can't recall the titles. Thanks to >anyone who can help. > The Oliver Reed film is "The Trapper" and takes place in Canada, but I forgot the time period. I'd like to say Mid-19th c. because of some of the firearms used. It was made about 1968. An interesting film, but not necessarily visually appealing. HBC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: movie titles Date: 12 Jan 1998 09:50:59 -0600 (CST) >The Oliver Reed film is "The Trapper" and takes place in Canada, but I forgot >>the time period. I'd like to say Mid-19th c. because of some of the firearms >>used. It was made about 1968. An interesting film, but not necessarily >>visually appealing. >HBC Correction. The film is "The Trap" and is available on video. Any video store could look it up, unless there's a good website. HBC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 12 Jan 1998 12:32:36 -0500 I received this email and wondered if any of you can expand on the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to J.P. J.P. writes: Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so far no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops or such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in Lubbock Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius? Thank you. J. P. Rashkis Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 12 Jan 1998 14:05:12 -0600 (CST) >I received this email and wondered if any of you can expand on >the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to >J.P. > > >J.P. writes: >Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning >native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so far >no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find >information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops or >such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in Lubbock >Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius? >Thank you. > J. P. Rashkis J. P. Stop by my office at the Texas Tech Museum and I'll share the Tompkins book with you. Best to call first. Cheers, HBC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 12 Jan 1998 15:16:04 EST I personally don't know any native signers but I have gone to several American Indian Powwows (dancing) and asked the same question as I'm deaf and interested in learning that system of signs as I'm a native American Sign Language user. Sorry to say this but more American Indians know American Sign Language than the traditional signs.....but signs are still in use mostly in Canada and some in the western states particularly the Blackfeet Nations and Lakota Nations. I'm not too sure about the Oklahoma Indian Nations...wouldn't hurt to check it out there as that state has a huge number of American Indians next to California and Texas. Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES <CTOAKES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bed Hardware ???? Date: 12 Jan 1998 15:54:07 EST In a message dated 98-01-08 23:47:45 EST, JSeminerio wrote: << Talking about bring a period bed to rendezvous, does anyone know if plans are available for Lafayette's Travelling four post bed that's shown in Collector's Illustarted Encyclopedia of the American Revolution ? >> I have not seen published plans but they have one at Ft Stanwick in Rome NY and if you ever get there the staff would let you photograph it and take any and all measurements you want. They are really nice folks there and real helpful. Last year up at Ft Niagara at the Rev War event there was a reinactor that brought his reproduction of the folding canopy bed. His wife was real happy to show it off and let you inspect it. If you every get to the Henry Ford Museum outside of Detroit take a look at George Washingtons bed. All iron and canvas and folds up into a suitcase for transport. Present from the french along with a camp kitchen/mess complete with crystal, china and silverware and a couple of wine/spirit decanters. Nice thing about the F&I and Rev War era is you can sleep in style and eat well too. Your humble servant, C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud <flyingcd@rosenet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Phone Number Date: 12 Jan 1998 15:34:34 -0800 Good afternoon Does some one have the phone number for the Musiam of the Fur Trade, Thanks -- Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. Date: 12 Jan 1998 17:35:01 -0600 At 10:06 AM 12/29/97 -0500, Fred Miller wrote: > >The finish surface is >so smooth, if applied properly, there is no need to polish out with >anything......just like glass. > Rubbing out and polishing offers a little different look, just another ol= d technique. Of course a too shiny stock offers the chance to "flash" ligh= t and spook game or warn an enemy. > >Yep........amber is still available, and I really should find out where = to >get it. =20 > I buy broken amber beads from antique jewelry and bead dealers and once a= t a rock show they were selling amber darning eggs so I picked up a few. Amber (fossilized tree resin) comes in a wide array of color, you can nev= er have too much. Take care there are synthetics being hawked as real. To test scrape a few shavings and burn with an odorless (alcohol) flame it should smell like amber - not plastic. Once you identify the smell of amber you can rub it warm with your thumb and identify it by smell as you can real silver. I have heard that amber has been used as an admixture t= o tobacco for spiritual purposes. Talk about old; this stuff can date back to dinosaurs. The newest has been around 25,000 or so years. It is magical stuff. > > If you know where I can buy REAL boiled linseed and spar, please >let all of us know here in the list! I'm sure I'm not the only one who'= d >like to have a source for it. > The only way I know to get a real boiled linseed oil is to make it as detailed in the Alburnum Elixir recipe. It is probably not a good idea t= o search out litharge to add as a drier. I can get rosin, gums and resins; if anyone is really interested. Some things take real looking. Frankincense and Myrrh are easy. If anyone is really interested we can go into period alternatives to usin= g lead as a dryer. Not necessarily safer, different, sure to be costly. Borate of Manganese is claimed most powerful. To avoid confusing others: "spar varnish" is a trade name given to a maker's most weather resistant varnish. It was what he felt was the best blend of gums, resins, and rosins with oils, turpentine and dryers suitab= le for protecting the spars of ships on the ocean. I have not encountered t= he terminology in early nineteenth century references nor an early reference to a resin or gum called "spar." It is a product name probably coined after 1900. Real spar means a natural resin oil varnish. The minerals known as fluorspar were not likely ever used for varnish. Perhaps as a pigment, I've not found references to such. The old spar varnishes you a= nd I are familiar with most probably included tung oil as a weatherizing agent. It simply was the makers most wear and weather resistant varnish. Not always the best choice. > >'Got that right! The antiques I refinished (after removing many layers = of >paint) in the 60's look better today than they did then! REAL boiled >linseed, REAL spar and quality terp. were the "secret." 'Outta see the = pine >sideboard (1830's) that I stained with stain made from walnut hulls and >crude oil as a carrier.....spar/linseed/terp mix for the first few coats= , >then straight spar after that....rubbed out with crude oil and rotten st= one. >I can find rotten stone, but not crude oil. I use virgin olive oil or >canola.....works. > Then you have seen what I was talking about. It is a significant difference. Your walnut hull dye or a traditional mineral stain will hol= d their color. Modern stains are only guaranteed to fade, quickly when exposed to sunlight. When you refer to crude oil do you mean petroleum crude or cold pressed raw linseed? Method of oil extraction; heat, chemical, or pressed; affects quality. Cold pressed raw linseed is available at art suppliers or health food stores (sometimes called "flax seed oil"). Olive oil was also known as sweet oil in the early nineteent= h century, never the worst choice; more often used for metals lubrication a= nd protection. Extra Virgin always sounds good to an old rounder, like me, = it isn't necessary for shop use. I have never encountered a pre 1850 reference to using petroleum crude in woodwork. I am aware of some published after 1900. Primarily in industrial arts manuals for school sh= op. > >Compare the furniture made by Bassett (for example) made in the 60's to = what >they "make" today, let alone what was made "way back when." > The decline of quality has been study and continual from the mid-nineteen= th century right up to the present. Older furniture is one of the better values of today, costs less than the best new, looks better and lasts longer; the older the better. There is a point of diminishing return on the lower cost part. Some makers carried elements of quality into the la= te nineteenth century, and a few still do work as fine as any past. > >Absolutely!! The real question through all this, is how do we "bring ba= ck" >what was lost, as there hasn't been a whole lot of success so far? > Success by what measure? There are a few who live as the past and work a= t old craft every day, they are each learning & preserving some of the secrets. =20 We again, at least one of us, know how to:=20 shrink a buffalo hump into a proper shield,=20 light a candle from a spark,=20 make a barrel of wood for whiskey,=20 or forge weld one of iron for a rifle,=20 tell time at night without a watch,=20 build, pack and paddle a bull boat,=20 pack a horse for extended travel,=20 make a fine damascus type steel,=20 live comfortably with and from the land without aid of modern technology,= =20 and a bunch of other things which were nearly lost. =20 Answers are found in the questions, which arise in the doing, along with more questions. Future problems are yet unknown, we can't presume what will be important. All we can really hope to do is preserve a little mor= e compleat historic record. Some of that knowledge is being recorded here, more in other places. With the ease of replication it need not be lost again. There is always more to know. =20 My products show a practical application of old secrets. My 1826 contrac= t saddle is more comfortable, day after day, than any modern padded stock saddle. My life has never been put at risk by failure of traditional equipment and ways; as happened long ago with the best modern technology offers. A fire, 2 wool blankets and a piece of tarp will keep you alive when the finest nylon and goose down or synthetic fill won't. Any useful knowledge gained must certainly be considered success. > >Stradivari studied with Amati. Italian masters of the craft kept much t= o >themselves and unfortunately didn't keep notes on the stains and finishe= s >they used. Interesting, that chemical analysis of the varnish they used= has >NOT produced a duplicate to this day......close, but not exact. > Part of the problem is some folks figure equivalents are. For example: ethanol is not quite the same as "spirits of wine." Chemists would sugge= st they are exact based on molecular structure. In some cases impurities ar= e as important as the main ingredient in traditional receipts. I have foun= d reagent grade chemicals to be often less suitable than raw forms. Lab analysis is inexact in interpretation. The guy down in Texas may have something about the way they got their wood as well, I'm skeptical of his simulations. Folks are working on the problem, it will be found in the o= ld ways. It will be a simple trick or several that makes all the difference. There is another theory that considers "tuning" the wood while carving to be of equal importance to varnish. > >I have 1 supplier yet to check out, and IF there's a >natural spar available, I'll list the company here for everyone! I have= n't >used any of the Constantine products.....your impressions? > They are not as good as the best I've used. They are the best varnishes = I am currently aware of. They use mineral spirits, instead of turpentine, which impairs the quality. I would certainly like to know of other sourc= es of supply. Making your own oil varnish can be "exciting" or worse. If i= t isn't real I don't use it; wood deserves better than that, so I choose th= e best available traditional method of which there are many correct alternatives. Most modern work deserves modern finishes.=20 In the past varnishes were prepared to specific purpose, similar in basic type formulations, the blend of rosin, resin, gums, spirits and oils specific to the need. A gunstocker's varnish would be similar to, not th= e same as, a luthier's, it could also be very different. Each ingredient w= as chosen for it's own unique properties; the blending of properties to purpose was the varnish cooker's magic and jealously guarded secrets. Th= e commercialization of varnish manufacture is mostly a post 1850 phenomenon. An original finish is the signature of the craftsman. It bespoke the quality of his work. Interestingly most pre-1850 varnish receipts were for spirit varnishes; a few for volatile oil and a very few for oil varnish. Not surprising; as spirit varnish is fast drying, the easiest to make and wonderful to use. Most craftsmen made their own finishes until well into the last half of t= he nineteenth century. They could be made very durable using the finest gum= s & resins like copal, dammar, sandarac, amber and more. In the early nineteenth century the terms, varnish, shellac and lacquer were virtually interchangeable according to local custom and could reference a finish different than present connotations. Each best thing to each best purpose. That which is missing from our market driven economy. Perhaps a key to some future economy? The technology of quill & ink on hand laid paper and movable type, being set = to only the most important words, was our beginning. Concurrently the technologies of wood work had reached their zenith and soon gave way to t= he coming revolutions. The best of wood was then, the best of communication is now. Though when we ponder some of the well-crafted words left us, I wonder? John=85 For those who don't know: A source of hardwood, veneer, tools, hide glue, shellac (several grades), three natural varnishes: and other less useful stuff. Catalog available.= =20 Albert Constantine & Son, Inc., since 1812 2050 Eastchester Rd. Bronx, NY 10461 800-223-8087 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 12 Jan 1998 18:05:01 +0000 The Tompkins book is ok. A very fast way to learn sign language, but it does have a couple of errors in it. Probably the best book is The Indian Sign Language by W. P. Clark. Clark was a Captain in the Army, ordered in 1881 to do a study on Indian sign language which he completed in 1884. He not only tells what the sign is, but also gives the origin for the sign and some history of the tribes involved. Since he was there, I would give him more credence. One of the best signers I have seen lives here in Pueblo, CO - Sam Pisciotta. Don Keas Scott Allen wrote: >I received this email and wondered if any of you can expand on >the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to >J.P. > > >J.P. writes: >Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning >native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so far >no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find >information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops or >such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in Lubbock >Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius? >Thank you. > J. P. Rashkis >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A6D3A270210; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:02:27 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xrpx8-0005Vd-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:55:18 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xrpx4-0005UJ-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:55:14 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >MAA23160 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:55:11 -0700 (MST) >Received: from mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22] > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xrnjJ-0006Qh-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:32:53 -0700 >Received: from portal.east.saic.com [198.151.13.15] > by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xrnjI-0000Gi-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:32:52 -0700 >Received: from BlueRidge-FTP.saic.com by portal.east.saic.com > via smtpd (for mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) with SMTP; 12 >Jan 1998 17:32:43 UT >Received: from blueridge-ef.saic.com (BlueRidge-ef.saic.com [198.151.14.11]) by >BlueRidge-FTP.saic.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA06709 for ><hist_text@xmission.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:32:49 -0500 (EST) >Received: from SAIC1/SpoolDir by blueridge-ef.saic.com (Mercury 1.21); > 12 Jan 98 12:32:50 -0500 >Received: from SpoolDir by SAIC1 (Mercury 1.30); 12 Jan 98 12:32:45 -0500 >From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> >Organization: SAIC Technology Services Co. >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:32:36 -0500 >Subject: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) >Message-ID: <3120CC44950@blueridge-ef.saic.com> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881269628 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: administrivia Date: 12 Jan 1998 21:40:27 -0700 Hello the camp.!.!.. I've added a feature to this here e-mail list that some of y'all may find convenient - a "digest" version. A "digest" of the mailing list is where instead of getting a bunch of emails at various times of day, whenever they get send, you get one big email message every day or two that contains a whole batch of messages that have been posted since the last digest. Lurkers in particular may find this to be a better arrangement. I've got it set up so a digest goes out every two days or 1000 lines, whichever comes first. If all this sounds too confusing, you can safely ignore this message, because the mailing list will continue to work the same as always. But if you'd like to take advantage of this digest feature, send email to: majordomo@xmission.com where the body of the message is: subscribe hist_text-digest@xmission.com your_email_address You should get an e-mail back with any further directions. Once you've made sure you're receiving the digests ok, you'll probably want to unsubscribe from the regular list (because you'll be getting the messages twice). To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xmission.com, where the body of the message consists of "unsubscribe hist_text your_email_address". YMHOS, Dean Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: web site additions Date: 12 Jan 1998 22:14:48 -0700 Here are a few recent additions to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" website: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/spalding.html Spalding, Henry. <italic>Letter from the Rocky Mountains, 1836 </italic>Thanks to David Mullen for sending in this transcription. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/rmo1836.html Invoice of Goods furnished to Rocky Mountain Outfit, 1836 This is my attempt at transcribing the manuscript from the American Fur Co. Papers. For now, I've left out the pricing data, as it will be very time consuming to work out all the numbers, but I thought just the list of goods would be of interest for now. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/hafenbios.html A Guide to the Hafen Biographies, with the list of biographies, the volume and page number references to the original 10 volume series, and, for those biographies that have been reprinted in recent books, references to those as well. This is in a big table that hopefully makes sense. YMHOS Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Phone Number Date: 13 Jan 1998 08:49:01 -0600 (CST) >Good afternoon > > Does some one have the phone number for the Musiam of the Fur Trade, >Thanks >-- > > >Jim Ellison, http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd Yes. It's 308/432-3843. They are on winter hours now, so you might not get them right away. You might have to leave a message. The Director, Gail Potter, is a friend of mine, but she's not there right now because she's in England researching capotes in the Ashmolean Museum collection in Oxford. Buena suerte, HBC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron & Gayle Harris <buckskin@cyberramp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 13 Jan 1998 09:11:46 -0600 Scott Allen wrote: > > I received this email and wondered if any of you can expand on > the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to > J.P. > > J.P. writes: > Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning > native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so far > no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find > information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops or > such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in Lubbock > Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius? > Thank you. > J. P. Rashkis > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick > Fairplay, MD > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT Scott, I think the Tompkins book is pretty good to get the basics, but the clark Book really gets into the meat of the matter. I like it that he spends a lot of time giving background on each sign. There is also an out of print book out there by "Iron Eyes" Cody that is about like Tompkins except it has pictures instead of drawings.(i found my copy in denver) Also, I have done a set of Indian Sign Language Flash Cards that are based on Tompkins that i think help learn the basics easily. I sell a plain set for 15$ and a laminated set for 30$. I also keep the Tompkins and Clark books on hand. It is possible that given a little time I could locate the Cody book for him. Have J.P. contact me Ron Harris 305 West Moore Ave Terrell Tx 75160 e-mail buckskin@cyberramp.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. Date: 14 Jan 1998 07:00:24 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Kramer > Sent: Monday, January 12, 1998 6:35 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. > > > At 10:06 AM 12/29/97 -0500, Fred Miller wrote: > > > >The finish surface is > >so smooth, if applied properly, there is no need to polish out with > >anything......just like glass. > > > > Rubbing out and polishing offers a little different look, just another old > technique. Of course a too shiny stock offers the chance to "flash" light > and spook game or warn an enemy. True, but most modern finishers "loose" all the grain, detail, depth, etc., because this is over-done, or most often by only using a few coats of oil or a "flat" type finish. I refinished a Lyman G.P. stock for a fellow recently. Now, European walnut is not the most attractive wood, but this stock was quite nice when I got done with it. > >Yep........amber is still available, and I really should find out where to > >get it. > > > > I buy broken amber beads from antique jewelry and bead dealers and once at > a rock show they were selling amber darning eggs so I picked up a few. > Amber (fossilized tree resin) comes in a wide array of color, you can never > have too much. Take care there are synthetics being hawked as real. To > test scrape a few shavings and burn with an odorless (alcohol) flame it > should smell like amber - not plastic. Once you identify the smell of > amber you can rub it warm with your thumb and identify it by smell as you > can real silver. I have heard that amber has been used as an admixture to > tobacco for spiritual purposes. Talk about old; this stuff can date back > to dinosaurs. The newest has been around 25,000 or so years. It is > magical stuff. In my home state of WA, as kids we could find it easily. I'll see if I can locate some and try it. > > If you know where I can buy REAL boiled linseed and spar, please > >let all of us know here in the list! I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd > >like to have a source for it. > > > > The only way I know to get a real boiled linseed oil is to make it as > detailed in the Alburnum Elixir recipe. It is probably not a good idea to > search out litharge to add as a drier. I can get rosin, gums and resins; > if anyone is really interested. Some things take real looking. > Frankincense and Myrrh are easy. Hehehehehe......no, I really don't care to make it. > If anyone is really interested we can go into period alternatives to using > lead as a dryer. Not necessarily safer, different, sure to be costly. > Borate of Manganese is claimed most powerful. 'Never had any cause to use it. I've played around with enough "nasty" stuff during my youth, I'd just as soon avoid in now. That's why I'd like a source for real boiled linseed. > To avoid confusing others: "spar varnish" is a trade name given to a > maker's most weather resistant varnish. It was what he felt was the best > blend of gums, resins, and rosins with oils, turpentine and dryers suitable > for protecting the spars of ships on the ocean. I have not encountered the > terminology in early nineteenth century references nor an early reference > to a resin or gum called "spar." It is a product name probably coined > after 1900. Real spar means a natural resin oil varnish. The minerals > known as fluorspar were not likely ever used for varnish. Perhaps as a > pigment, I've not found references to such. The old spar varnishes you and > I are familiar with most probably included tung oil as a weatherizing > agent. It simply was the makers most wear and weather resistant varnish. > Not always the best choice. True, any references I've read to varnishes pre-1800 don't use the term "spar," but my knowledge of the subject is limited. > >'Got that right! The antiques I refinished (after removing many layers of > >paint) in the 60's look better today than they did then! REAL boiled > >linseed, REAL spar and quality terp. were the "secret." 'Outta see the pine > >sideboard (1830's) that I stained with stain made from walnut hulls and > >crude oil as a carrier.....spar/linseed/terp mix for the first few coats, > >then straight spar after that....rubbed out with crude oil and rotten stone. > >I can find rotten stone, but not crude oil. I use virgin olive oil or > >canola.....works. > > > Then you have seen what I was talking about. It is a significant > difference. Your walnut hull dye or a traditional mineral stain will hold > their color. Modern stains are only guaranteed to fade, quickly when > exposed to sunlight. When you refer to crude oil do you mean petroleum > crude or cold pressed raw linseed? Method of oil extraction; heat, Cold-pressed raw linseed.....sorry, the term has been used for both. > chemical, or pressed; affects quality. Cold pressed raw linseed is > available at art suppliers or health food stores (sometimes called "flax > seed oil"). Olive oil was also known as sweet oil in the early nineteenth > century, never the worst choice; more often used for metals lubrication and > protection. Extra Virgin always sounds good to an old rounder, like me, it > isn't necessary for shop use. I have never encountered a pre 1850 > reference to using petroleum crude in woodwork. I am aware of some > published after 1900. Primarily in industrial arts manuals for school shop. > > > > >Compare the furniture made by Bassett (for example) made in the 60's to what > >they "make" today, let alone what was made "way back when." > > > > The decline of quality has been study and continual from the mid-nineteenth > century right up to the present. Older furniture is one of the better > values of today, costs less than the best new, looks better and lasts > longer; the older the better. There is a point of diminishing return on > the lower cost part. Some makers carried elements of quality into the late > nineteenth century, and a few still do work as fine as any past. Yes.....IF you can afford it!<g> > >Absolutely!! The real question through all this, is how do we "bring back" > >what was lost, as there hasn't been a whole lot of success so far? > > > > Success by what measure? There are a few who live as the past and work at > old craft every day, they are each learning & preserving some of the > secrets. Yep......and we'll just have to continue best we can. > We again, at least one of us, know how to: > shrink a buffalo hump into a proper shield, > light a candle from a spark, > make a barrel of wood for whiskey, > or forge weld one of iron for a rifle, > tell time at night without a watch, > build, pack and paddle a bull boat, > pack a horse for extended travel, > make a fine damascus type steel, > live comfortably with and from the land without aid of modern technology, > and a bunch of other things which were nearly lost. > > Answers are found in the questions, which arise in the doing, along with > more questions. Future problems are yet unknown, we can't presume what > will be important. All we can really hope to do is preserve a little more > compleat historic record. Some of that knowledge is being recorded here, > more in other places. With the ease of replication it need not be lost > again. There is always more to know. Yes......"it need NOT be lost again!" I've learned much on the list, have much more to learn, and so little time it seems. > My products show a practical application of old secrets. My 1826 contract > saddle is more comfortable, day after day, than any modern padded stock > saddle. My life has never been put at risk by failure of traditional > equipment and ways; as happened long ago with the best modern technology > offers. A fire, 2 wool blankets and a piece of tarp will keep you alive > when the finest nylon and goose down or synthetic fill won't. Any useful > knowledge gained must certainly be considered success. Absolutely! I hunt wearing "union suit," drop-fronts, blanket shirt, hunters frock, etc. In really cold weather, a capote. I'm always warmer than others wearing their synthetics. > >Stradivari studied with Amati. Italian masters of the craft kept much to > >themselves and unfortunately didn't keep notes on the stains and finishes > >they used. Interesting, that chemical analysis of the varnish they used has > >NOT produced a duplicate to this day......close, but not exact. > > > > Part of the problem is some folks figure equivalents are. For example: > ethanol is not quite the same as "spirits of wine." Chemists would suggest > they are exact based on molecular structure. In some cases impurities are > as important as the main ingredient in traditional receipts. I have found Proven correct more than once! They also don't take into consideration that natural resins used THEN are not the same as what they assume was used. > reagent grade chemicals to be often less suitable than raw forms. Lab > analysis is inexact in interpretation. The guy down in Texas may have > something about the way they got their wood as well, I'm skeptical of his > simulations. Folks are working on the problem, it will be found in the old > ways. It will be a simple trick or several that makes all the difference. > There is another theory that considers "tuning" the wood while carving to > be of equal importance to varnish. There were a couple of VERY skilled repairmen I once knew.....one was in Portland, OR...long since dead. They were of that mind. > >I have 1 supplier yet to check out, and IF there's a > >natural spar available, I'll list the company here for everyone! I haven't > >used any of the Constantine products.....your impressions? > > > They are not as good as the best I've used. They are the best varnishes I > am currently aware of. They use mineral spirits, instead of turpentine, > which impairs the quality. I would certainly like to know of other sources > of supply. Making your own oil varnish can be "exciting" or worse. If it > isn't real I don't use it; wood deserves better than that, so I choose the > best available traditional method of which there are many correct > alternatives. Most modern work deserves modern finishes. I'll keep looking for the "good stuff." > In the past varnishes were prepared to specific purpose, similar in basic > type formulations, the blend of rosin, resin, gums, spirits and oils > specific to the need. A gunstocker's varnish would be similar to, not the > same as, a luthier's, it could also be very different. Each ingredient was > chosen for it's own unique properties; the blending of properties to > purpose was the varnish cooker's magic and jealously guarded secrets. The > commercialization of varnish manufacture is mostly a post 1850 phenomenon. > An original finish is the signature of the craftsman. It bespoke the > quality of his work. Yes indeed. > Interestingly most pre-1850 varnish receipts were for spirit varnishes; a > few for volatile oil and a very few for oil varnish. Not surprising; as > spirit varnish is fast drying, the easiest to make and wonderful to use. > Most craftsmen made their own finishes until well into the last half of the > nineteenth century. They could be made very durable using the finest gums > & resins like copal, dammar, sandarac, amber and more. In the early > nineteenth century the terms, varnish, shellac and lacquer were virtually > interchangeable according to local custom and could reference a finish > different than present connotations. Like powder........grades are much different. > Each best thing to each best purpose. That which is missing from our > market driven economy. Perhaps a key to some future economy? The > technology of quill & ink on hand laid paper and movable type, being set to > only the most important words, was our beginning. Concurrently the > technologies of wood work had reached their zenith and soon gave way to the > coming revolutions. The best of wood was then, the best of communication > is now. Though when we ponder some of the well-crafted words left us, I > wonder? In an era of political correctness, when most are more concerned with what can be purchased than created, when most often what is worn on ones sleeve is his ego, I'd agree. > For those who don't know: > A source of hardwood, veneer, tools, hide glue, shellac (several grades), > three natural varnishes: and other less useful stuff. Catalog available. > Albert Constantine & Son, Inc., since 1812 > 2050 Eastchester Rd. > Bronx, NY 10461 > 800-223-8087 Thanks, John! Regards, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: web site additions Date: 13 Jan 1998 21:20:04 -0600 Dean Rudy wrote: > > Here are a few recent additions to the "Mountain Men and the Fur > Trade" website: > > A Guide to the Hafen Biographies, with the list of biographies,. . . Thanks, Mr. Rudy. I didn't realize that so many biographies had been published. That must have been a monumental task. This list refutes one graybeard's contention that the total number of mountaineers who ever attended a rendezvous was a couple hundred or so. I thought he was wrong because I thought I had read some first hand accounts that estimated at least that number at one rendezvous. Does anyone know if anyone made a list of the names of mountaineers that were documented as being in the West during the rendezvous period? Hafen's biographies would be a good start. Sounds like a nice project, but one that will have to wait until my retirement if I am to consider it. I know the list would not be exact because the clerks wrote the names with various spellings. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help Date: 13 Jan 1998 20:05:51 -0800 (PST) Ted, Very interesting statement about American Sign Language (ASL) and Native American Sign Language. I am far from an expert, but do know both. My wife is deaf in her left ear and although she is hearing, she went back to school and got her degree in Deaf Studies and has taught me some degree of ASL. Also we have many deaf friends, so to communicate I learned enough to be dangerous. In the AMM, we encourage learning Native American Sign (it is one of the requirements that can be passed in order to achieve permanent membership status) and use the Tompkins book. It is a good reference, but not the best out there. I forget the other book which is better (by Carter?) but if someone else could remember the author, please help me. One of the problems I have found is, I sometimes get mixed up and use a Native American Sign in place of an ASL sign. Some signs are the same, but most are different. Unfortunately, I am in California, but I see that Ron Harris in Dallas has responded (and he is very good at Native American Signing) and Paul Jones is in Austin (also on this group) and both might be able to help you locate other AMM Brothers in Texas. I hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 _______________________________________________________________________________ At 03:16 PM 1/12/98 EST, you wrote: >I personally don't know any native signers but I have gone to several >American Indian Powwows (dancing) and asked the same question as I'm deaf >and interested in learning that system of signs as I'm a native American >Sign Language user. Sorry to say this but more American Indians know >American Sign Language than the traditional signs.....but signs are still >in use mostly in Canada and some in the western states particularly the >Blackfeet Nations and Lakota Nations. I'm not too sure about the >Oklahoma Indian Nations...wouldn't hurt to check it out there as that >state has a huge number of American Indians next to California and Texas. > >Ted > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 13 Jan 1998 21:34:28 -0500 YAHOOOOOO!!!! Leaving in the AM for the Alafia River Ronnyvous!!! Hope to see some of you hard cases there... <grin> Mouse and I will be camped by the 3 big Oak trees with the Highland detachment. Stop by for a cup of coffee or something stronger if ya care too... Would love you meet you all <grin> See ya in 12 days or so.... SeanBear and Lil Mouse aka Addison and Victoria Miller PS We are having a Celtic Wedding on the 21st of Jan. If ya be there, ya be invited ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. Date: 13 Jan 1998 19:26:13 EST I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? I'm still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends with the pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) Also what's a damacus steel? Many thanks. Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 14 Jan 1998 00:54:18 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Addison O. Miller wrote: > PS We are having a Celtic Wedding on the 21st of Jan. If ya be there, ya > be invited ;) Luck to ye lad, I suspect it'll be a shining time! Shoot straight, and if the bride be Celtic, search her fer blades before the ceremony :) Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Website http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <SEGUNDO@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 14 Jan 1998 00:55:54 -0500 For time during the day try a sundial compass. Night time there are only the following times, O dark thirty, dinner time, party time & bed time. Damascus steel is a layered steel that is mostly used today for VERY expensive, fancy knives and hawks. By the way my wife got me one for being a really good little 'ol skinner this year. In the past it was used for some shotgun barrels but was banned due to it's habit of seperating with smokeless powder. I have seen several old pieces and you can tell from the mottled look of the barrel that it is probably Damacus. Ted A Hart wrote: > I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? I'm > still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends with the > pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) Also what's a > damacus steel? Many thanks. > > Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 14 Jan 1998 08:21:39 -0700 (MST) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD2076.625E0300" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2076.625E0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was watches in the mountains and were not uncommon. What I want to know how did they keep them dry. They had key wound watches don't know when stem watches came into being. I carry a stemwound watch myself unless someone is standing right on top of me they can't tell the difference. I have been asked if it was a key wound watch. I come back the key is to keep it wound. Now for Damascus steel, it was Forge welded and lapped welded. You can see it in old shot guns . Until Later Jon T ---------- : From: Ted A Hart <tedhart@juno.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. : Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 4:26 PM : : I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? I'm : still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends with the : pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) Also what's a : damacus steel? Many thanks. : : Ted ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2076.625E0300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">There was watches in the mountains and = were not uncommon. What I want to know how did they keep them dry. = They had key wound watches don't know when stem watches came into = being. I carry a stemwound watch myself unless someone is standing = right on top of me they can't tell the difference. I have been = asked if it was a key wound watch. I come back the key is to keep = it wound. Now for Damascus steel, it was Forge welded and lapped = welded. You can see it in old shot guns . Until Later Jon T = ---------- : From: Ted A Hart <tedhart@juno.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift for the = list. : Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 4:26 PM : : I'm = curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? = I'm : still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends = with the : pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) = Also what's a : damacus steel? Many thanks. : : = Ted </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2076.625E0300-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 14 Jan 1998 01:48:53 -0600 In-Reply-To: <19980113.182427.8191.1.TedHart@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971228191720.0392f3bc@mail.kramerize.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:26 PM 1/13/98 EST, Ted wrote: >I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? I'm >still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends with the >pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) I wrote an article for the T&LR back in '80 or '81 describing in detail how to do it. Basically observe the path of the Big Dipper as it describes an arc around the North Star over many nights. Develop "witness" marks for yourself on the horizon (note: the arc covers a different area of the sky during different seasons). I could hit about 15 minute accuracy against the occasional city watch encountered, when I lived out all the time. You can do the about the same with the sun, or buy one of those nice repro sundial compasses and learn to use it. Don't forget to adjust to Government time from Railroad time (& vice versa) in the appropriate seasons. Don't forget magnetic declination. It was a year or two after I wrote "How to Light a Candle" if you really want to amaze and amuse your friends. Don't do it right and you could set your beard on fire. You can always make damp tinder burn, if you can light a candle. Wet wood just takes longer to get a good fire burning. Also what's a >damacus steel? Many thanks. > Damascus steel was considered by many to be the finest for swords ever made. Surpassing Toledo, Soling en, and Sheffield. It was a secret process combining iron with the harder steel in patterns, I've read claims of tempering in human blood, no one really knows. There are many making what I call damascus type steel as the original could only be made in Damascus. Look around a little at a knife shows, or old shotguns. The knife makers will mostly claim they make Damascus. John... If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 14 Jan 1998 01:20:43 -0800 (PST) Greetings Ted... > I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? To be exactly precise, you'd need a sexton, your exact location, and what day of the year it is (was), then all you'd have to do is shoot the angle of the sun (or stars) compare it to your charts, and bingo, you'd know what time it was (or something like that :) The folks I know that can tell the time (approximately), know what time the sun comes up and sets, know where north is, and approximate the time by lining up the position of the sun (or their favorite constellation) to due north (then it's simple division after that). Most of these folks live their lives outside by the way (versus an office). Me... I'm looking for a key wind watch, but I always know when it's lunch time! > Also what's a damacus steel? Damascus steel is a name currently used to describe steel that has been laminated by forge welding two or more types of ferrous metal. It is more accurately referred to as pattern welded damascus to differentiate it from true oriental damascus steel which is made using an entirely different process. See the page at: http://www.nidlink.com/~packriver/dam_stl.html Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Website http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kat" <kat@janrix.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time Date: 14 Jan 1998 10:40:38 -0500 We always had a really simple way to tell what time it was: A bit after getting up is breakfast Hungry again is lunch Sleepy is nap time Hungry again is dinner (or when cook rattles dishes loudly) Dark (or lack of flatlanders) is party time Any time after that is bed time Noticed you're by youself? Must be time to pack and leave :) Most places with cannon set them off at Noon and 5 :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time Date: 14 Jan 1998 09:56:25 -0600 Ted Hart wrote: > > I'm curious how can you tell time at night? One way I have improvised for judging time on nights with a clear sky is to look at the two stars that form the outer edge of the cup of the Big Dipper (Ursa Major). These stars form a line to the North Star (Polaris) and will be your clock's hour hand. Look at it the first thing at night and figure it points to maybe 7 o'clock (or whatever time you think it is at the time). Then figure that the hand will turn 360 degrees every 24 hours. Actually the earth does the turning. So each hour is 15 degrees. So at night, judge the angle the pointing stars have changed and add 1 hour to your original time for each 15 degrees. This is as accurate as you can estimate the angle, which is not usually accurate, but good enough to judge whether to postpone a latrine run until daylight. You can also use the angle of any other easily recognizable star with Polaris. If you can find Orion, it is good because it travels overhead where we live (Texas). On nights with a moon, the moon can also be used. The moon is not as accurate as the stars because it orbits a little slower than every 24 hours, but it is plenty accurate for estimating. On full moon nights, it is easy because the moon rises and sets at dusk and dawn. The above is the exact total of my astronomical knowledge, so I hope someone will expand on this subject and correct me if my intuition is incorrect. Happy stargazing, friend. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" <LROMSA1@missc.state.wy.us> Subject: MtMan-List: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Date: 14 Jan 1998 11:00:28 -0700 I got my 1858 Pietta (sp?) from Cabela's bargan area ($112.00). It is = advertized as an exact replica. I've had excellent service from this = revolver and a whole lot of fun. I use Pyrodex because it is readily = available and less expensive than blackpowder in this area. I've never had = any of the problems mentioned. I often leave it loaded for months at a = time and never a misfire or late ignition. I always clean it after = shooting. Even if I only need one shot, I still shoot it empty and clean = it when I get home. I use hot-hot-hot water and Dawn dish liquid. So far no sign of any fouling or rust. I load about 26 pyrodex-p, corn meal filler, a wonder-wad, .451 round = ball ( from my lee mould) , and then spit-ball or crisco. I know this = sounds like over-kill, but it works best for me this way. Spit-ball is = better in the warmer months, but crisco does great as long as it doesn't = melt. I hope this helps a little. BrokenJaw P.S. After cleaning I always put a thin layer of spit-ball or crisco in = the barrel and on the pin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Telling Time Date: 14 Jan 1998 11:01:29 -0700 Telling Time At the risk of expanding other other entries on this topic, here are the very elementary notions this "city boy" uses to estimate time of day or night. DAY TIME: You need to know approximately when the sun rises and sets. Then you note its progress across the sky and subdivide between these two times. One can use a pole or sapling as a natural sundial, marking certain times with little stakes or rocks by asking someone with a watch, noon being fairly easy to establish by eye. However, in general, "day" times are pretty self-regulating according to one's state of hunger, the activities under way, distance to be travelled etc etc. It's usually the time of night that one needs for assigning watch duty, or simply wondering how many hours till dawn. NIGHT TIME. Again, we start with knowledge of sunset and sunrise times. As the stars become visible, find the North Star and mark the position of the Big Dipper (if visible) or another distinctive consellation. All stars appear to rotate around the North Star so we have a natural "clock face" which rotates once every 24 hours. A nominal 12-hour night (actually of course the length varies with the season) will therefore involve a 180-degree rotation of the marker stars. As noted, alignment marks on the horizon can help assess the amount of rotation. The other valuable body is the moon, which may be visible through clouds which obscure the stars. Here we need to consider the phase of the moon -- A full moon is on the opposite side of the earth from the sun, and therefore travels the night sky 12 hours later than the sun. A half-moon, being at a 90-degree angle, should rise (or set) exactly halfway through the night. This event may be apparent even through moderate cloud cover. Intermediate phases (3/4, 1/4 etc) will rise or set 3/4 or 1/4 of the way through the night. One needs of course to observe whether the moon is already up when the sun sets, or will be rising at the appropriate time, and of course the moon's angle while visible subdivides the time between dark and moonrise/set. The moon rises/set about 50 minutes later each day. I could rack my brain to relate this to waxing or waning moons but a glance at the night sky establishes where we stand in the current cycle. Establishing the time during a deeply cloudy and rainy night is trickier. For me, such nights divide into about six time zones -- Surpisingly Dry and Cosy, Early Sleep, the Time of Drips, Suspicious Trickles and Gurglings, Resigned Waiting, and the Rising Pressure Before Dawn. Pat Quilter, AMM 1658 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <frank@hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: MtMan-List: Gunsmithing Date: 14 Jan 1998 12:08:08 -0800 Hello the camp! I need a little help with some gunsmithing. I just picked up a new rifle and it has a couple small problems. First is, the front sight is so loose I can push it out with my fingers and I don't know how to tighten it. The second is that if I fully cock the hammer, the set trigger is almost impossible to engage. With the hammer at rest the set trigger works fine. The gun has an L&R lock. Sure 'preciate yor hep! Frank "Medicine Bear" Stewart ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 14 Jan 1998 20:52:37 -0500 Will also be leaving for the Alafia.......Hope the new sight is big enough for all these ya-hoos....... Going in first weekend and looking for the 3 big trees. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 14 Jan 1998 15:40:59 -0600 At 08:21 AM 1/14/98 -0700, Jon wrote: > >There was watches in the mountains and were not uncommon. What I want to >know how did they keep them dry. They had key wound watches don't know >when stem watches came into being. > Stem wound watches are after 1850. Watches were very expensive. It would be difficult to keep one dry and functional in the mountains, for long. I've had a couple of nice old ones (key wind) in perfect condition. Never could keep one running two weeks in the mountains. A watch would have been uncommon except perhaps for Stewart, Fremont, Bonneville and the like. It ain't like they had parking meters to feed and meetings to attend or a Day Planner to keep track of. Not a very useful tool in the mountains. An expensive luxury of greatest value to surveyors, cartographers and such. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Date: 14 Jan 1998 22:27:04 EST One cleaning solution a friend told me about is simply to mix equal parts of: Murphey's oil soap rubbing alchohol Hydrogen Peroxide Boy, I wish I had a spell check on E-mail... Anyway, this is a great little solvent for black powder. However, with the rubbing alchohol, you have to be sure to get it off completely. Leaving this stuff on will breed rust. That's great that your pistol is keeping clean now, but if you ever need to scrub it hard, then I would suggest giving this a try. It's all I use these days... And it's cheap too! Keep your powder dry. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift for the list. Date: 15 Jan 1998 07:47:34 PST Be careful if you acquire an old gun with a damascus barrell. Rust can occur between layers in the steel, resulting in a dangerously weakened barrell. The steel can appear to be perfectly sound but the barrell can split or burst if the rust has weakened it enough. Have a COMPETENT gunsmith examine the gun thoroughly before you even consider firing a damascus barrelled gun. Otherwise, you should clean it up nicely and hang it over the fireplace. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ---------- > > I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Or for that matter day? I'm > still trying to figure out so that I can amaze my friends with the > pronouncation of the time at times without a watch :) Also what's a > damacus steel? Many thanks. > > Ted > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gunsmithing Date: 15 Jan 1998 02:37:26 EST In a message dated 98-01-14 15:20:27 EST, you write: << First is, the front sight is so loose I can push it out with my fingers and I don't know how to tighten it. I asume the front sight is set in a dovetail groove? If so, you can sometimes shim under the sight with a piece of .002 steel shim stock & snug things up. Another method id to use a small center punch & lightly pein the bottom of the dovetail groove. IF you have access to a TIG welder, build up the width of the base of the sight & file to fit properly. A nonperiod fix is superglue, but only after you have the sight where it belongs. < The second is that if I fully cock the hammer, the set trigger is almost impossible to engage. With the hammer at rest the set trigger works fine. The gun has an L&R lock. >> Have you removed the lock & checked the function of the trigger? Possibly the end of the sear has gotten in between the levers of the set trigger's mechanism? Set the triggers before reinstalling the lock & see what happens. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Date: 15 Jan 1998 02:02:44 EST In a message dated 98-01-14 00:49:08 EST, you write: << I'm curious how can you tell time at night? Position of the "Big Dipper" around the North Star. < Or for that matter day? With practice, you can easily get within 30 min by eyeballing the Sun's position. There are other methods using shadows that can be surprisingly accurate. Check out an old Boy Scout hand book. You can also use shadows to tell direction. There are aslo several period sundials available. Some of which are very accurate once you learn how to use 'em. < Also what's a damacus steel? >> True Damascus steel is no longer available. What we have today is more properly termed as "pattern welded steel". Way back when steel was something new, it was made from "bog iron" that was smelted in crude clay furnaces fired with charcoal or wood which became charcoal as the process progressed. This bog iron had a lot of imourities that could be removed by hammering. When you hammer a piece of iron, it gets thinner, so to retain the thickness, it was folded, the fold welded shut (again by hammering at high heat), the resulting piece was again hammered thin, folded, wedled, & hammered thin again until the impurities were all removed. This resulted in the first steels & the method was practiced in the area of the old city Damascus -- hence the name. Due to the many layers that were welded together, it had a pattern as the layers could be seen. Usualy there were several hundred layers -- if memory serves, in the neighbourhood of around 500 to 1000. The main reason I say true Damascus is no longer available is the ore used back then is depleted, & other iron ores do not have the same properties. Modern renditions of "Damascus steel" starts with 2 (or more) modern steels of different carbon content such as 1010 & 1095. The carbon content is what makes steel get hard in the hardening & tempering process. In numbered steels "10XX", the 10 means it's pure refined iron with no alloying additives. Steel is, for all practical purposes, iron with the impurities removed. The "XX" numbers in the 1000 series steels indicates carbon content. Basicaly steel with less than 4% carbon (1040) is considered unhardenable though with proper treatment & handling 1040 CAN be hardend to a certain extent. Back to our 1010 & 1095 steels -- these two bars of steel are forge welded together with the traditional method of high heat & hammering. From this point the method developed way back at the birth of steel is repeted -- hammer, fold, weld, hammer, fold, weld. When the desired (note the word "desired") number of layers are reached, the resulting billet can be formed into a knife, ax, or whatever tool desired -- usualy knives are made of this labor intensive product. This method has several advantages over making a knife out of a bar of 1095 steel. Due to the low carbon layers within the billet, it is extremely tough & resistant to breakage because it supports the hard high carbon layers, Some claim the resulting edge acts as a saw when cutting. The most odvious reason for making a knive this way is becaust it's a beautiful piece of work when the layers are manipulated to form patterns, then acid etched. Some blade smiths use nickel instead of the low carbon steel or add a thin layer of nickel every 25 folds to accentuate the pattern. There are several blacksmiths & bladesmiths making "damascus" or "pattern welded" steels. There's a knife catalog that comes out of Georgia (I think -- Atlanta Cutlery???) that sometimes has blanks & billets for sale at a fairly reasonable price. Hope this helps. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 15 Jan 1998 08:32:09 -0600 (CST) >Will also be leaving for the Alafia.......Hope the new sight is big enough for >all these ya-hoos....... >Going in first weekend and looking for the 3 big trees. > >Linda Holley I guess I missed it, but where's Alafia? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** "Living History Rules!!" ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kat" <kat@janrix.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe commands Date: 15 Jan 1998 10:10:18 -0500 I need to unsub for a while, and I lost the instructions when my hard drive crashed. Could someone e-mail me the commands, or point me to the FAQ? Thought I had it on paper . . . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe commands Date: 15 Jan 1998 08:39:29 -0700 (MST) > > I need to unsub for a while, and I lost the instructions when my hard drive > crashed. Could someone e-mail me the commands, or point me to the FAQ? > Thought I had it on paper . . . . . > > The Mailing list web page has the procedures for un/subscribing. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -Dean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Telling Time Date: 15 Jan 1998 09:56:50 -0700 Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> wrote: >To be exactly precise, you'd need a sexton, I think you meant sextant? I wouldn't want to drag a sexton around after me! My husband is an expert in this field--he says telling time down to the=20 precise minute and second with a sextant is a simple task, "you only have to= =20 solve _one_ spherical triangle", and "anyone with a basic grounding in=20 celestial navigation shouldn't have any problems with it". To do it in=20 period fashion requires a sextant, artificial horizon (pan of water with a= =20 glass cover to protect it from the wind), a nautical almanac for the current= =20 year, and mathematical tables. This method, called a "time shot", is how=20 David Thompson and other early navigators set their watches when they=20 accidentally let them run down. No, I'm not going to give the details=20 here--see vol. IX of Northwest Journal for the entire recipe. It's easier to use a traveller's sundial such as the Universal Ring Dial=20 (aka Astronomical Ring) available from Townsend & Sons a few years back, or= =20 the variations available in so many gift shops & catalogs now (shepard's=20 watch, Eleanor of Aquitaine watch, etc.). Sundials tell sundial time=20 (apparent solar time). The watch on your wrist tells mean zone time (eg.=20 MST, PDT). The difference between sundial time and mean zone time can be an= =20 hour or more, depending on where you are and what time of year it is. (Time= =20 zones were invented in the late 19th century by Canadian Sir Sandford=20 Fleming. Before then, watches were set to mean local solar time, so that=20 travellers with accurate watches would need to reset them continually as=20 they travelled, since solar noon comes at different times depending on where= =20 you are. ) You can figure out a conversion from sundial time to watch time which will= =20 be accurate to within 15 minutes. First, you must know your latitude (look= =20 it up on a map) & use that to set the gnomon (centre post) on the sundial.= =20 Then, to quote Jeff : "The first [correction] is an equation of time=20 correction which can reach as much as fifteen minutes in February and=20 November! Secondly, you will have to apply a correction to find your local= =20 zone time. In each time zone everyone's watch says noon at the same instant,= =20 even though it takes the sun one hour to cross the zone. Combined with the= =20 equation of time correction, this means that the astronomical ring can show= =20 a time which differs from your watch by up to forty-five minutes (fast or=20 slow). To find out what correction to apply for your zone, simply divide=20 your longitude by 15 to find how many hours it takes the sun to get to your= =20 meridian (reach high noon) from the meridian at Greenwich. For example, in= =20 Calgary at longitude 114=BA West, the sun will reach high noon 7 hours and= 36=20 minutes after it reaches noon in Greenwich. The number of hours that you=20 compute should be equal to the number of hours that you are from Greenwich.= =20 In this case, 7 hours is the conversion for Mountain Standard Time. Now,=20 ignore the hours and look at the minutes. In this case local apparent noon= =20 [when the sun is at its highest point in the sky for that day] will occur 36= =20 minutes after your watch says 12:00. (The reader will note that Calgary is= =20 actually beyond the western limit of time zone 7, which ends at 7 hours 30= =20 minutes, but for political reasons it is included in zone 7, as is the rest= =20 of Alberta. Confused? Then check out your local planetarium for assistance,= =20 or read the amazing chapter on time in the 1984 edition (not the 1995=20 version) of Nathaniel Bowditch's American Practical Navigator : An Epitome= =20 of Navigation, Volume I. Published by the Defense Mapping Agency=20 Hydrographic/Topographic Center Pub. No. 9. 1984.)" (From "Factor's=20 Cassette" in Vol. IX of _Northwest Journal_) The major navigational challenge of the 18th and 19th centuries was to=20 accurately determine longitude at sea. (Anyone have those Earl of=20 Abergavenney gunflints? The sinking of that ship was due to the fact that=20 they did not know their longitude when a storm blew up--they thought they=20 were further from shore than they really were. The loss of that ship and=20 another that was sailing with her led to a major spur by the Admiralty to=20 find a solution to the longitude problem.) The first solution was to use=20 lunar distances (measuring the distance between the moon and other celestial= =20 bodies with a sextant) to find longitude. (This was not easy--Sir Isaac=20 Newton called the lunar distance problem "the only problem that actually=20 made my head ache.") But everyone knew that the real solution was to invent= =20 & mass-produce dependable, accurate watches.=20 I seem to have gotten a little carried away here! Any questions? E-mail my= =20 husband, Jeff Gottfred, at gottfred@telusplanet.net. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary A. Bell" <micropt@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Date: 15 Jan 1998 10:02:07 -0800 John Fleming wrote: > Boy, I wish I had a spell check on E-mail... > Note, I am going to talk about current technology here, out of character for the remainder of this discussion, so those of you who want to stay in character, skip over the rest of this paragraph. I understand that on AOL you have to use their browser--too bad, Netscape has a nice spell checker in their Compose window, but I have heard from a friend who tried that Netscape Communicator can't load on AOL accounts. I am personally allergic to Microsoft's browser, so I can't tell you if it has a spell check or whether it will load in AOL territory. I will point out that you can easily get Netscape Communicator for free online or at a nominal cost off the shelf, and you can find numerous offerings of free email only hosting (like juno.com) or free forwarding email hosts (like rocketmail.com). Other Internet Service Providers have similar prices, better reputations regarding issues like junk email (spam) and no limits regarding browsers you would like to use. There is a lot of conversation around on these topics, I just set out to tell you about getting the spell checker you mentioned. <snip> > > One cleaning solution a friend told me about is simply to mix equal parts of: > > Murphey's oil soap > rubbing alchohol > Hydrogen Peroxide > <snip> > Anyway, this is a great little solvent for black powder. > However, with the > rubbing alchohol, you have to be sure to get it off > completely. Leaving this > stuff on will breed rust. That's great that your pistol is > keeping clean now, > but if you ever need to scrub it hard, then I would suggest > giving this a try. > It's all I use these days... And it's cheap too! My son used this mix on my Lyman GP rifle and Plains Pistol for a summer season when he was staffing the black powder area of a Boy Scout camp--it seems the booshway wanted it done that way with all the arms there. They had a terrible time with rust, and I still find rust creeping out of assorted seams, nooks and crannies in spite of aggressive cleaning and oiling since. My college chemistry tells me that peroxide is the culprit. It makes a very strong acid, and nothing like soda was ever used to neutralize it. Also, there are no other oily materials in this recipe (the oil in the Murphy's has been changed into soap, no longer works as an oil), so nothing is left behind as a barrier over the steel to prevent humidity from attacking it. (Number One Son used a lot of Bore Butter against the rust, but without much success.) The alcohol must act to carry the soap and peroxide into the greasy components of the crud in the bore, the soap attacks and emulsifies the grease and the peroxide dissolves the water soluble stuff very well. I feel that the mix leaves residues, particularly in cracks and crevices in the mechanism--or even in the metal--that leave you an out of control corrosion problem. I think that if you want to use peroxide you ought to follow it with a neutralizing wash with soda or some such; wash that out with lotsa hot water; let that dry completely and give it some sort of oily barrier to preserve the steel. I expect that given the huge amount of varied experience in this august bunch of online buckskinners I have probably started the email equivalent to a fire in the powder magazine! I have heard different recommendations about cleaning from just about everyone involved in black powder, and perhaps we will all hear them again now. Good, in that lots of ideas will pass around and we all can sample from them as we like--and learn. I am by nature neither especially humble, nor particularly obedient, so that leaves me remaining: Your Sincere but Overly Honest Servant, Gary Bell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cleaning solutions(was Cabela's, blah, blah, blah) Date: 15 Jan 1998 16:07:22 -0600 (CST) Friends, I've tried many different solutions (n.p.i.) to the problem, including what my National Park Service friends use: mild detergent and warm water, followed by a drying patch and then oil. I always go back to good ol' Hoppes #9. I scrub the bore with a wire bore brush to loosen all the crapola, then swab several times with #9-soaked patches. I use oversized patches to insure maximum bore coverage (sometimes I have to cut my own). After it's clean enough for me, I swab the bore with an oily patch. Mind you, I also shoot bp and smokeless cartridge rifles and bp revolvers, so I use the #9 in the chambers, nipples, cylinder pins, around the muzzle, and wherever there is likely to be fouling from powder or stains from smoke. (It helps to periodically disassemble the firearm and give the works a thorough cleaning.) These components also get a dose of oil. A good oil is Remington gun oil with Teflon. I keep a can in my gun box. It's a good light oil, and the spray straw comes in handy. It's not necessarily historically authentic, but we're talking about protecting major investments, so I think my conscience can deal with it. It's a lot of work, especially when I take 2-3 guns to the range. AAAUUUGGGGHHH!!! Gotta Love It!! :-) Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon"<lcardon@insurquote.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Telling Time Date: 15 Jan 1998 15:06:53 -0700 You can take a rough estimate of your latitude at night, by measuring from the horizon to the north star. 1 fingers width (not length) is approximately = to 1-degree 1 fist width is approximately = to 5-degrees -Lee Cardon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Date: 15 Jan 1998 14:17:07 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Nauga Mok spaketh: > < Also what's a damacus steel? > True Damascus steel <volumes of good stuff on Damascus Steel snipped> > There's a knife catalog that comes out of Georgia (I think -- Atlanta > Cutlery???) that sometimes has blanks & billets for sale at a fairly > reasonable price. the URL for Atlanta Cutlery is... http://www.atlantacutlery.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 15 Jan 1998 14:20:20 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Henry B. Crawford wrote: > I guess I missed it, but where's Alafia? ALAFIA RIVER RENDEZVOUS AND TROPHY SHOOT When: Jan 17-25 1998 Where: Southeast of Tampa (see map at site) More Info? Visit their Webpage! http://home1.gte.net/haddo/alafia98.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hugh Hendrix <hendrixh@aa.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Date: 15 Jan 1998 14:42:00 -0800 John, the newer Netscape browsers have a spell check! Regards JFLEMYTH wrote: > One cleaning solution a friend told me about is simply to mix equal parts of: > > Murphey's oil soap > rubbing alchohol > Hydrogen Peroxide > > Boy, I wish I had a spell check on E-mail... > > Anyway, this is a great little solvent for black powder. However, with the > rubbing alchohol, you have to be sure to get it off completely. Leaving this > stuff on will breed rust. That's great that your pistol is keeping clean now, > but if you ever need to scrub it hard, then I would suggest giving this a try. > It's all I use these days... And it's cheap too! > > Keep your powder dry. > > John Fleming > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Telling Time Date: 15 Jan 1998 14:51:10 -0800 (PST) > Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> carelessly wrote: > >To be exactly precise, you'd need a sexton, On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Angela Gottfred mischievously wrote: > I think you meant sextant? I wouldn't want to drag a sexton around after me! Well now, Miss Angela, that depends on what kinda mischief your up to now, doesn't it! <BG> Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Website http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!! Date: 15 Jan 1998 18:38:13 -0500 --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Alafia is the LARGEST rendezvous in the Southeastern United States. Makes the NMLRA Southeastern look like a little weekend event. There are usually around 600 camps and God knows how many people? It is held in the Plant City area of Florida which is near Tampa for you folks from out of state or West of Disney World in Orlando. Sometimes it has been referred to as the Largest Buckskin Flea Market in the world. All time periods attend......1550 to 1990..(if you include the Modern Powwow Indian dressed). But it is one hell of a party....Don't want to miss it. Linda Holley --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> The Alafia is the LARGEST rendezvous in the Southeastern United States. Makes the NMLRA Southeastern look like a little weekend event. There are usually around 600 camps and God knows how many people? It is held in the Plant City area of Florida which is near Tampa for you folks from out of state or West of Disney World in Orlando. Sometimes it has been referred to as the Largest Buckskin Flea Market in the world. All time periods attend......1550 to 1990..(if you include the Modern Powwow Indian dressed). But it is one hell of a party....Don't want to miss it. Linda Holley</HTML> --------------F518C075907136CA9BDE1860-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawker Amm <HawkerAmm@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gunsmithing Date: 15 Jan 1998 19:34:12 EST Another solution if your sight is in a dovetail is to remove the sight then carefully peen down the front and back edges of the dovetail on the barrel. Do this with care and don't try to get it real tight at one time. Keep peening and try fitting until the front sight fits in snugly and tight. Good luck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Celestial Navigation. Date: 15 Jan 1998 17:38:25 -0700 Celestial Navigation. The "time" issue has veered into celestial navigation, or "where the heck am I?". As noted by Angela and Lee, one's latitude (north or south position on the earth) is relatively easy to obtain, by measuring the angle of the north star to the horizon. Since the sun travels a predicable path in the sky (even though the apparent height varies with season) with the use of tables and a "noon sighting" (measuring the sun several times around estimated noon and determining its highest position) you could establish your latitude, using a sextant (an instrument to measure the angle between an object and the horizon). Actual practices involved more tricks (such as the artificial horizon noted) to compensate for inability to see the true "flat" horizon. Determining your longitude (how far east or west we are) would be simple IF we knew what time it was at a standard reference longitude (normally taken to be the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, England). We need only measure the difference in time between high noon at Greenwich and our local noon (using the same repeated noon sightings taken above) to determine how many time zones around the earth we are. Of course, before radio time signals, there were very limited ways to determine the time at Greenwich while travelling. The ultimate method, of course, required accurate chronometers; a good 1815 British Navy captain sailed with three of them and kept accurate records of their relative drift, and noted their offset upon returning to Greenwich. Lewis and Clark did not succeed in keeping a chronometer going continuously while travelling, but, "Undaunted Courage" describes Lewis's process of taking "lunars" to determine the true time. The moon is constantly eclipsing various stars, which events are regular and can be put in tables. When the moon passes in front of star x, the Greenwich time is exactly ___. If you set even an average-quality watch to this time, it will still be close enough for a noon sighting the next day. The positions of Jupiter's four moons was another celestial clock. All of these events, of course, occur at inconvenient intervals, and cloud cover was the bane of surveyors. Lewis was stuck for a week at his most northern excursion trying to get a sighting in the hopes of pushing the US-Canada border above 49 degrees of latitude. Using these methods, I believe most of Lewis and Clark's positions were within 30 miles of their true position, but as noted, this could be a deadly degree of error for a sailing ship. Pat Quilter AMM 1658 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: 6th Annual Iowa Territorial Historical Festival Date: 16 Jan 1998 03:02:20 -0800 (PST) For Everyone's Info.... also posted on my webpage at http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 6th Annual Iowa Territorial Historical Festival August 14th - 16th, 1998 Ottumwa, Iowa. The event is held 6 miles north of Bloomfield, Iowa. Also 6 miles South of Ottumwa, IA on hwy. 63 S. The event is located at the Pioneer Ridge Nature Area home to 737 acres of Prairie and Oak-Hickory timber. This is a time line event running from 1750's-1870's with two seperate camps running at the same time. Civil War on one side of the park seperated by Oak-Hickoy timber. Long hunters & Natives and Buckskinners will be located on the other side of the timber. The activities are as followes: two battle skirmishes a day, with a tactial on Sunday, fashion show, living history activities and lectures and an evening candle light tour. We will also have the normal Black Powder shoot, Hawk and Knife and other activities to numerous to mention. For more information please contact: Kelly Schott, 1339 Hwy 63 S. Bloomfield, IA - 52537 515-682-3091 or fax 683-4621 E-mail co90conserv@lisco.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 16 Jan 1998 09:08:30 -0600 (CST) I know, it's not rendezvous period, but those of us who do muzzleloaders sometimes tend to have bp revolvers, too. I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble to do some surgery on it's innards (needs a new hand-and-spring). The two screws behind the trigger holding the trigger guard in place won't come out. I've tried penetrating oil, and all that does is make my screwdriver slip. I am not using gunsmithing screwdrivers, which might be part of the problem. I also know that the guy the gun came from didn't seem to take care of it. I could only pop three of the nipples. Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. Any suggestions? Thanks, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Cabela's BP & Cleaning solution Date: 16 Jan 1998 08:52:17 EST Thanks for the E-mail, Gary. I should point out that I finish with hot soap and water every time I clean my guns. I have had no rust problems, but my guns have never been cleaner. I'll be keeping an even closer eye on the bores though! John. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS <J2HEARTS@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 16 Jan 1998 12:12:52 EST Henry, Sometimes stuck screws can be loosened by using a plastic handled screwdriver. !. The bit of the screwdriver must closly fit the slot in the screw. 2.Secure the gun appropriately in a padded vise. 3. Put screwdriver in screw slot and, lightly at first, rap the plastic end of the screwdriver with a mallet of light weight hammer. 4. Try the screw. If on luck, try again rapping the screwedriver but a little harder. Good luck John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Date: 16 Jan 1998 12:33:21 -0600 Washtahay- Nauga Mok, I gotta differ with a couple points of your explanation- At 02:02 AM 1/15/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-14 00:49:08 EST, you write: >< Also what's a damacus steel? > >> > >True Damascus steel is no longer available. Well, actually, it is. Commonly sold as wootz. If you can call a commodity like that "common". >What we have today is more >properly termed as "pattern welded steel". Yep. But this was also probably the most common early steel. True damascus steel was apparently made by packing small pieces of wrought iron in a carbon bearing material, then sealing in some type of container (probably clay). The container was placed in a fire and heated til the container was (probably, depending on the account) red hot, and held at that temp for some period of time. The container was then removed from the fire and quenched. Now you had high carbon steel, and if you did it right you had carbide particles scattered evenly thoughout the steel (in addition to the regular carbon). More below. >Way back when steel was something >new, it was made from "bog iron" that was smelted in crude clay furnaces fired >with charcoal or wood which became charcoal as the process progressed. Don't know about this part, am to young to remember. I do know that bog iron is still available, just not in the large quantities that are necessary to be commercially viable. >bog iron had a lot of imourities that could be removed by hammering. When you >hammer a piece of iron, it gets thinner, so to retain the thickness, it was >folded, the fold welded shut (again by hammering at high heat), the resulting >piece was again hammered thin, folded, wedled, & hammered thin again until the >impurities were all removed. This is the early refinement process, and one reason why people were so impressed by the magic of early ironworkers. The previous metals used-bronze, copper, etc-were all worked in a very different manner, the people didn't understand what was going on. There is one school of thought that says the Arthurian legend of the sword in the stone is a remnant of a legend of the arrival of iron working. >This resulted in the first steels & the method >was practiced in the area of the old city Damascus -- hence the name. Due to >the many layers that were welded together, it had a pattern as the layers >could be seen. What is now called "wootz" has a pattern like pinpoints of white in the grey of the steel. Pattern weld could be perhaps best compared to wood grain. >Usualy there were several hundred layers -- if memory serves, >in the neighbourhood of around 500 to 1000. Or 3 or 30,000-or just lines where several wires or rods were twisted together to make the stock (the twisted rods or wires was a technique that appears to have found favor among the Vikings and other Scandinavian peoples). >The main reason I say true >Damascus is no longer available is the ore used back then is depleted, & other >iron ores do not have the same properties. Modern renditions of "Damascus >steel" starts with 2 (or more) modern steels of different carbon content such >as 1010 & 1095. Of the blade makers I know, most use a high carbon steel and wrought iron from various salvage sources, or bought new from some suppliers. >The carbon content is what makes steel get hard in the >hardening & tempering process. In numbered steels "10XX", the 10 means it's >pure refined iron with no alloying additives. Steel is, for all practical >purposes, iron with the impurities removed. By definition, steel is iron with the addition of carbon. >The "XX" numbers in the 1000 >series steels indicates carbon content. Basicaly steel with less than 4% >carbon (1040) is considered unhardenable though with proper treatment & Nauga Mok, I think this is a typo-isn't 1040 steel steel with .40% carbon? I think if you heated a piece of 40% carbon metal in an open forge it would give off one heck of a fireworks show! >handling 1040 CAN be hardend to a certain extent. Back to our 1010 & 1095 >steels -- these two bars of steel are forge welded together with the >traditional method of high heat & hammering. From this point the method >developed way back at the birth of steel is repeted -- hammer, fold, weld, >hammer, fold, weld. When the desired (note the word "desired") number of >layers are reached, the resulting billet can be formed into a knife, ax, or >whatever tool desired -- usualy knives are made of this labor intensive >product. This method has several advantages over making a knife out of a bar >of 1095 steel. Due to the low carbon layers within the billet, it is >extremely tough & resistant to breakage because it supports the hard high >carbon layers, Some claim the resulting edge acts as a saw when cutting. I have had the opportunity to examine a nunber of makers' pattern welded steel under an eloctron microscope. The edge of most pattern welded steel looks like several razor blades held side by side. It is a great edge for cutting meat, not so good for bone or wood-it clogs. The wire or cable pattern welded steel is different. It looks like semi-circular cutting edges set side by side, with more space between where one ends and the next begins. It seems to be more aggressive in cutting tissue, and not dull as quickly when cutting hides with the hair still on (as in skinning). The only wootz sample I have seen under an electron microscope looked like black inclusions of sand in plaster of paris. I really hope those descriptions make sense, because if you can visualize them, it will help you to understand how each cuts. A regular knife blade looks like a razor blade scraped across a piece of coarse sandstone-the scratches form teeth, and they do the actual cutting. >most odvious reason for making a knive this way is becaust it's a beautiful >piece of work when the layers are manipulated to form patterns, then acid >etched. Some blade smiths use nickel instead of the low carbon steel or add a >thin layer of nickel every 25 folds to accentuate the pattern. I have a blade a friend gave me that is high carbon steel and nickel. Beautiful... >There are >several blacksmiths & bladesmiths making "damascus" or "pattern welded" >steels. There's a knife catalog that comes out of Georgia (I think -- Atlanta >Cutlery???) that sometimes has blanks & billets for sale at a fairly >reasonable price. From what I have seen, the pattern welded steel from Atlanta Cutlery and Damascus USA seems to lack some of the character of hand made steel. The pattern is too 'even' for want of a better word. It also seems to have a lower carbon content than steel available from some of the custom makers, so it might not hold an edge as well as the steel in a custom knife. On those rare occasions when I have wanted to put the work into making a pattern welded knife, I have used O1 steel and wrought iron. It has always proven satisfactory for all uses to which I put a working knife. For my 3.5" working knife, I average 3 deer dressed and skinned before I have to touch up the edge. I have done some experimenting with the small scale production of wootz, starting with bog iron. It is a really cool steel, a real pleasure to use as a knife. But it is too time, labor, and cost intensive for me. As a friend says, "It has a high value density". And frankly, I am just not into it enough to do it. I figure the 5" wootz blade I have took several hundred hours of research and experimentation, probably 200 hours of actual work to make the blade from the iron, and cost probably $300 in fuel, clay, iron, and burn ointment. And it is still not perfect. LongWalker c. du B. PS When doing the rondyvoo thing, I usually carry a common butcher knife. I've never seen any reference to pattern welded steel or wootz steel in the old records! LW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1860 BPR Date: 16 Jan 1998 11:27:59 -0800 Henry Crawford wanted to know about removing stuck screws: Henry, using the right screwdriver is always a plus in gunsmithing. In this case using heat from a torch is out of the question as it would ruin what finnish you have on the weapon. I've had 75% success on removing tight screws by placing the screwdriver straight on the head of the screw and then using a wood mallet, strike the end of the screwdriver with a couple of medium raps. This will often loosen tight gun screws without doing damage to them, kinda like tapping a tight lid on a jar with the butt end of a butter knife to get it open. Penetrating oils sorry to say, just don't work all the time, but they are a good thing to start with. If ALL else fails go ahead and take it to a local gunsmith and let him do it, at least if he messes it up.....he's the one who'll have to replace them! Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 16 Jan 1998 15:25:28 EST In a message dated 98-01-16 11:50:08 EST, you write: > Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need > to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I > don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it > until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. Henry, Go to an auto parts store and pick up a couple of cans of a product called PB Blaster. It is not a penetrating oil, it is a rust solvent. Strip the gun to its basic components, put it in a pan, and cover with the PB. Let it set for a week. You should be able to remove the screws as well as the nipples, I run an auto repair shop. This is the greatest stuff since safety pins. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 16 Jan 1998 21:13:56 -0600 Howdy Henry There are lots of unsaid things that could help decide how to care for that revolver. Like... is the mainspring still attached? Have you revmoved the wooden grips? Usually the gripps should come off and then the mainspring should come next. Is the gun dirty or clean? If dirty, I would soak the revolver in very hot water for quite awhile before I tried to reomve those screws. I would also remove the grips and mainspring before the hot water. Then I would attempt to remove the trigger guard. After which I would remove the small spring just below the trigger guard. Then the rest should just screw right out. Of course there are other methods. M. Branson ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt > Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 9:08 AM > > I know, it's not rendezvous period, but those of us who do muzzleloaders > sometimes tend to have bp revolvers, too. > > I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble to do some > surgery on it's innards (needs a new hand-and-spring). The two screws > behind the trigger holding the trigger guard in place won't come out. I've > tried penetrating oil, and all that does is make my screwdriver slip. I am > not using gunsmithing screwdrivers, which might be part of the problem. I > also know that the guy the gun came from didn't seem to take care of it. I > could only pop three of the nipples. Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need > to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I > don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it > until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Damascus, steels, & stuff Date: 17 Jan 1998 13:16:41 EST In a message dated 98-01-15 19:13:45 EST, you write: << the URL for Atlanta Cutlery is... http://www.atlantacutlery.com/ >> Thanks! I was hoping I'd remembered right. I've never tried any of their pattern welded blanks, so can't atest to the quality. I'd asume it's ok since they've had it in & out of stock, which means it's a good selling item & their supplier evidently can't keep up with their demand. I forgot to mention most pattern welded blanks or billets are now made by machine or with a power hammer to keep costs down. Using power or "trip" hammers IS a period method -- Collins Ax Co was using water powered hammers in the late 1820's. They're the only Co I have documentation on, (so far) but I'm sure they weren't the only ones since the doccumentation doesn't mention developing the hammers which would have been a big thing. It'd probably carried their names like the Blanchard lathe carried it's developer's name. There's a LOT of beautiful pattern welded knives being made now. Someone mentioned Damascus being tempered in blood -- there was a whole bunch of different "witches' brews" used for hardning steel besides the still used oil & water quinches. Some contained blood & stale horse urine to mention a couple of the more unusual "secret ingredients". The same results can be atained with a salt water brine although the protein content in the blood may have possibly increased the carbon content on the surface by a few hundredths of a percent -- not enough to realy matter. What mattered more was the skill of the smith doing the hardning & tempering. I sometimes chuckle at some of the Hollywood versions of hardning steel -- like in "Conan the Barbarian," a sword was plunged into a snow bank -- wrong! Good steel would have shattered! The casting of the sword was pure fantasy for that time period -- it would have been a Damascus type construction because quantities of steel large enough to make a sword were nearly impossible to make at that time. Then too, when cast, there were no sparks, so possibly they used brass for the illustration. Or in Moby Dick -- the older version with Gregory Peck -- the harpoon was quinched in blood from the crew -- a possibility, but the visual effects were a bit much. Some of you may have heard that old rifle builders would wrap the frizen in leather & burn it to harden the frizen. That's partialy true. If the frizen was made of wrought iron, which had nearly all the carbon removed (again by hammering), carbon had to be added back into the iron to convert it to a steel that would harden. One method that was widely used was what was known as "crucible steel". They put a portion of iron, or the iron part (frizen in this case) inside a ceramic "pot" with a lid. They usualy wrapped the part they wanted to harden with leather or used charred bone, charcoal, or charred leather or a combination of these carbon sources to fill the pot. Then the lid was sealed with clay & the pot was put into the fire in the forge. The pot had to be maintained at orange to white hot for a minimum of 18 hrs -- preferably more, to "cook in" the carbon. The critical part was when the part was "done" & the pot allowed to cool. Any air (oxygen) reaching the part while at white heat would cause the carbon to oxidize rapidly (burn) & ruin the part. The easiest way was to bury the pot in a hot fire in the forge & allow the fire to burn out. We can now do the same process in under a hour with the use of a casehardening agent like Casenite. Crucible steels are still made & used primarily in tools -- Collins axes are made of crucible steel. There was another way used to get the frizen face hard enough to spark. That entailed facing it with a thin piece of an old file. Once the steel from the file was shaped & fitted to the frizen, it was "speltered" in place. "Speltering" is the period term for "brazing", but it was done in the forge. As has been pointed out numerous times here, our forefathers wasted nothing! Speltering used brass filings mixed in a flux, or the parts were fluxed & brass filings were sprinkled onto the flux while still molten. I've tried both ways & both ways work. As a matter of fact, I was "steeling" a frizen when I first tried these old processes. One thing to keep in mind if you try this -- you must reduce the thickness of the frizen by the thickness of what you're going to add back as the new steel face & you must allow a few thousandths of an inch for the spelter or you'll wreck the timing of the lock. You can use this method to referbish older locks that don't have replacement frizens available or parts from Siler or L&L won't fit. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Date: 17 Jan 1998 15:57:35 EST In a message dated 98-01-17 00:22:32 EST, you write: << Well, actually, it is. Commonly sold as wootz. If you can call a commodity like that "common". Wouldn't call it "common" cuz I wasn't aware of it being made. < True damascus steel was apparently made by packing small pieces of wrought iron in a carbon bearing material, then sealing in some type of container (probably clay). Excelent description of "crucible steel". From my sources, Damascus was hammered & folded, not "cooked". < Don't know about this part, am to young to remember. So am I, but -- now you're gonna make me look it up aren't ya! You can visit a charcoal fired furnace in Southern Missouri at Meramec State Park near Sullivan. Foxfire #5 has an excelent article on making iron this way -- they referbished a furnace & actualy fired it for 1 run. Both of these "cold blast" furnaces (the one at Meramec & the one in the book) were in production during the Civil War. If memory serves, the Meramec furnace was first fired in the 1820's & the Cooper Furnace in 1837. This volume also describes "bloomerys" -- a prior method of smelting iron in open furnaces -- Bloomeries had slipped my mind. Bloomeries were the main production furnaces at the time of the Rev War. It also has some good stuff on early NMLRA days, Jim Chambers & Hirschel House before they were old enough to shave -- least ways, their pictures look that way. I'll have to dig a bit more for the "furnaces" used in the Damascus era. < I do know that bog iron is still available, just not in the large quantities that are necessary to be commercially viable. Where? Would like to play with some! < This is the early refinement process, and one reason why people were so impressed by the magic of early ironworkers. Even in it's more refined methods of our time period, the Native Americans were awed by "the rock that could only be worked by another like rock" < There is one school of thought that says the Arthurian legend of the sword in the stone is a remnant of a legend of the arrival of iron working. I've read that some where too. < Or 3 or 30,000-or just lines where several wires or rods were twisted together to make the stock (the twisted rods or wires was a technique that appears to have found favor among the Vikings and other Scandinavian peoples). As well as the Japanese -- Samuri swords were made this way too. They were the ones who used the 5,000 - 20,000 layers. The more layers, the thiner & more invisable the lines between the layers. In modern pattern welding, they usualy quit at around 500 because more than that & there is a problem with carbon migration from the high carbon element to it's low carbon copartner. < Of the blade makers I know, most use a high carbon steel and wrought iron from various salvage sources, or bought new from some suppliers. That works -- I uses the 1010 as an example. < By definition, steel is iron with the addition of carbon. Strange -- one of the problems with wedlability of cast iron is due to it's high carbon content. < Nauga Mok, I think this is a typo-isn't 1040 steel steel with .40% carbon? Yep! Even as I had it at 4%, that's too high -- missed the decimal. Thanks for catching that. < I have had the opportunity to examine a nunber of makers' pattern welded steel under an eloctron microscope. The edge of most pattern welded steel looks like several razor blades held side by side. It is a great edge for cutting meat, not so good for bone or wood-it clogs. The wire or cable pattern welded steel is different. It looks like semi-circular cutting edges set side by side, with more space between where one ends and the next begins. I'd noticed if I kept my pattern welded blade clean, it cut better. This explains it. I was going to mention that some makers use cable & it makes a good pattern welded blade. It should! The "IPS" designation on some rope stands for "Improved Plow Steel" There some times are one of 2 "X's" in front of the IPS indicating "Extra Improved" or "Extra Extra Improved" which indicate tougher alloys. Though I haven't played with it, I'd think the IPS (without the XX's) would work best for knives. One thing nice about cable, you can write the manufacturer (if known) & find out exactly what kind of steel was used -- especialy in certified rope. ALL elevators are supposed to use certified rope as well as cranes rigged for "critical" picks -- the users of such rope MUST maintain the records --"certs", so it's easy to track. At work, even our "chokers" have to have certs. < I really hope those descriptions make sense, because if you can visualize them, it will help you to understand how each cuts. Yep! I can visualize it. The wootz must look like a fresh break in nodular cast 'cept it has more "spots". < I have a blade a friend gave me that is high carbon steel and nickel. Beautiful... I've seen some that had the steel darkened so the nickle stood out silver against black/dark grey -- realy pretty. < From what I have seen, the pattern welded steel from Atlanta Cutlery and Damascus USA seems to lack some of the character of hand made steel. The pattern is too 'even' for want of a better word. It also seems to have a lower carbon content than steel available from some of the custom makers, so it might not hold an edge as well as the steel in a custom knife. I was going to try some sometime, but we have a local producer that makes some nice stuff. Sounds like they just weld the flat bars & don't do much layer manipulation. Have you seen the book "Complete Bladesmith" by -- uh-oh I can't spell his last name -- starts with a "H" -- first name Jim -- can't find my copy either. Atlanta Cutlery had some of his work 1 time only. He's into medieval swords primarily but wrote 2 books on bladesmithing I've seen that are excelent -- I have (had) one of them. Ah -- Found it!! Jim Hrisoulas -- ISBN 0-87364-430-1. < On those rare occasions when I have wanted to put the work into making a pattern welded knife, I have used O1 steel and wrought iron. It has always proven satisfactory for all uses to which I put a working knife. That aughta work fine. O1 is excelent knife material. I've always wanted to use wrought iron & 1095, but have problems finding the wrought iron. When I DO find it, I generaly wind up using it before the mood strikes to make a knife 'cuz it welds so much easier than A36. < I have done some experimenting with the small scale production of wootz, starting with bog iron. It is a really cool steel, a real pleasure to use as a knife. But it is too time, labor, and cost intensive for me. As a friend says, "It has a high value density". And frankly, I am just not into it enough to do it. I figure the 5" wootz blade I have took several hundred hours of research and experimentation, probably 200 hours of actual work to make the blade from the iron, and cost probably $300 in fuel, clay, iron, and burn ointment. And it is still not perfect. Think I mentioned the phrase "labor intensive"! I don't have a power hammer, so I have to do it the hard way. That must have been a fun expirament! Probably a lot of "AW $HI+s!" involved too huh? < PS When doing the rondyvoo thing, I usually carry a common butcher knife. I've never seen any reference to pattern welded steel or wootz steel in the old records! My sentiments too. I feel a Damascus blade would have been too expensive for the "common trapper" (that description fits my persona) to carry -- especialy when they had access to the GR's fairly cheaply at rondy. I don't recall seeing where any Damascus blades have been recovered in any of the Western archaelogical digs either. If I was to use a hand forged blade at rondy, it'd be one made from a file. Some day, I gotta keep one of my creations, but I'm usualy so backlogged, I don't get the chance. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 17 Jan 1998 00:38:18 -0600 At 09:08 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Henry wrote: > >I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble > Henry, First and foremost the screwdriver MUST fit. Buy old ones of good quality at flea markets and file the blade to fit the job; precisely. Or buy a first class set from Brownells; Chapman makes quality sets in the good old USofA. Though heat can be useful a torch, as another mentioned, is not generally suitable for use on a revolver. Two alternatives: 1. An alcohol blow torch (like the big old plumber type, only in miniature) can be used with care and a pin point blue flame. 2. A large soldering copper can be cherried and the tip held to the center of the head of the screw, usually it's best to work with three coppers so maximum heat can be transmitted through rotation until the screw is hot enough to break the bond. Don't burn your fingers. Heat doesn't always work. If you really muck things up there's always drills and easy outs and taps and helicoils and new screws. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 17 Jan 1998 10:37:48 -0600 (CST) >Howdy Henry There are lots of unsaid things that could help decide how to >care for that revolver. Like... is the mainspring still attached? Have you >revmoved the wooden grips? Usually the gripps should come off and then the >mainspring should come next. I stripped it down as far as it could go. I planned to completely disassemble the piece and clean each part before I replaced the hand-and-spring. That's when I got stuck at the trigger guard. Is the gun dirty or clean? If dirty, I would >soak the revolver in very hot water for quite awhile before I tried to >reomve those screws. boiled water? How long? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clay Landry <Landry@wtp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 17 Jan 1998 15:04:27 -0700 (MST) This is a subject that I have been wanting to bring up for sometime and this snowy day affords me some extra indoor time so here goes; Osborne Russell describes the nick names of several mountaineers in a passage from his book-"Journal of a Trapper", page 39. He tells of the camp keeper "art" of cooking "poor bull" by beating it with a club and says "He then drops his club and draws his butcher knife calling to his comrades "Come Major, Judge, Squire, Dollar, Pike, Cotton, and Gabe wont you take lunch of Simon?" The editor of Russell's book, Aubrey Haines, tells us in a foot note that by these nicknames Russell is refering to Joe Meek as "Major", George Ebberts as "Squire", Cotton Mansfield as "Cotton", and James Bridger as "Gabe". Haines also thinks that "Judge" may have been Russell's nick name. Else where in his book, page 70, Russell also tells of the Indians' name for Bridger being "Blanket Chief". Leroy Hafen, Tom Fitzpatrick's biographer, wrote that "information gathered form William Sublette's letters of January 30, February 9,27, and 29, 1836...give credence to the account of the adventurous trip on which Fitzpatrick suffered the accident that caused the crippling of his hand-the accident that induced the Indians later to give him the name "Broken Hand"(sometimes rendered "Bad Hand" or "Three Fingers")." page 150 "Broken Hand" by Leroy Hafen. I have also read some where that Capt Bonneville was refered to as "Bald Chief" by the Indians. While there seems to be good evidence that some fur brigade Captains and leaders had Indian styled names such as "Broken Hand" and "Blanket Chief" it does not appear that the other white trappers referred to them by these handles. Russell's list of nick names for some rather prominent beaver trappers seems to indicate that the trappers called Bridger "Gabe" and not "Blanket Chief". Also "NONE" of Russell's comrades nick names seem to have Indian styled origins. No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names on one another. Yet our present day Rendezvous camps and buckskiner events abound with gents and ladies calling themselves such poetic Indian sounding names as "Grey Feather, Two Grouse, Soaring Eagle, Dancing Bear, Wolf Howl, Dead Horse, Spotted Horse, Snake Eyes, and on ad-infinitum!! My question is "How and where did this get started?" Does this process of adopting a "Indian camp name" have something to do with our "alter egos" or some parallel life?? Maybe this "naming process" does have an historical basis-does anyone know??? Clay Landry P.O. Box 1033 Columbus MT 59019 -------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" <mkatona@pdx.oneworld.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel Date: 17 Jan 1998 16:01:55 +0000 Need a good drawing of a period (1800-1850) shovel to take over to my blacksmith. Would appreciate it if someone has one that they could ship me. thanks Two Squaws Hiveranno AMM # 914 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kat" <kat@janrix.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 17 Jan 1998 19:35:33 -0500 Many of the folk I hang around with are given their camp names for something they did, Sodbuster, (really tore up the ground when he got stuck) Rat Poker (4 footed kind between the liner and tipi), Slick (count your fingers when you're done trading -- won't cheat but always makes a good deal), Leadbottom, and so on ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" <mikebransn@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 17 Jan 1998 19:43:28 -0600 Well I'm sure alot of folks will have their own ideas but I usually use boiling water with dishwashing liquid in it and soak it until the water cools off. The screw driver should fit the slotjust as others have said also if the screw driver is hollow ground it helps also. M. branson ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt > Date: Saturday, January 17, 1998 10:37 AM > > >Howdy Henry There are lots of unsaid things that could help decide how to > >care for that revolver. Like... is the mainspring still attached? Have you > >revmoved the wooden grips? Usually the gripps should come off and then the > >mainspring should come next. > > I stripped it down as far as it could go. I planned to completely > disassemble the piece and clean each part before I replaced the > hand-and-spring. That's when I got stuck at the trigger guard. > > Is the gun dirty or clean? If dirty, I would > >soak the revolver in very hot water for quite awhile before I tried to > >reomve those screws. > > boiled water? How long? > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Celestial Navigation Date: 17 Jan 1998 22:53:15 -0700 I'm going to turn the reply to this one over to my husband. Jeff responds: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> wrote: > one's latitude (north or south position on the >earth) is relatively easy to obtain, by measuring the angle of the north star to >the horizon. Curiously enough, using the pole star to find latitude was not done 200 years ago due to the necessity of knowing the exact time. This is because the pole star is not right at the celestial pole, but about 1/2 a degree away. Failure to compensate for this would result in an error of position of up to 30 nautical miles. The problem was, unlike today, knowing the exact time was difficult (see below). > Since the sun travels a predicable path in the sky (even though the >apparent height varies with season) with the use of tables and a "noon sighting" >(measuring the sun several times around estimated noon and determining its >highest position) you could establish your latitude, using a sextant (an instrument >to measure the angle between an object and the horizon). Acually, the observer simply adjusts the sextant one way until the sun appears to ascend no higher. At this point the observer knows that transit has occured and should be able to compute a latitude to an accuracy of about 1.5 nautical miles even 200 years ago. (As David Thompson did). Note that Latitude can also be obtained with a "common" (ie. accurate to within 10 seconds or so per hour) watch using a technique called the "double altitude" method. This was used by Thompson (and others) when solar transits were not convenient. For a full explanation of the method see my articles in Northwest Journal Volume IX. (For more information on Northwest Journal see www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html, or write me) >Actual practices >involved more tricks (such as the artificial horizon noted) to compensate for >inability to see the true "flat" horizon. An artifical horizon (called "Parallel Glasses" 200 years ago) was essential for accurate results. (Dip short technniques using lake and river horizons were used but the error in estimating the distance to the far shore yielded poor results). Note that on land the navigator does not have to contend with many of the problems that plague the ocean navigator. This allows consistent and accurate results that would be impossible or very difficult at sea. I don't know what other 'tricks' you are referring to. > Determining your longitude (how far >east or west we are) would be simple IF we knew what time it was at a standard reference >longitude (normally taken to be the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, England). We >need only measure the difference in time between high noon at Greenwich and our >local noon (using the same repeated noon sightings taken above) to determine how >many time zones around the earth we are. Local apparent noon can not be determined to the necessary accuaracy by observing the time of tranist. The technique used was to compute one's latitude using either a transit or a double altitude followed by a 'time shot' in which the height of sun above the horizon is measured, and a spherical triangle solved to determine the local hour angle at the instant of the observation. This arc can be converted to time at the rate of fifteen degrees per hour, and the result is the sun's apparent time ante or post meridian. (As an interesting historical note, converting local apparent solar time to local mean time (using the equation of time) was not required as the lunar distance tables of the day used local apparent time.) >Of course, before radio time signals, >there were very limited ways to determine the time at Greenwich while >travelling. The ultimate method, of course, required accurate chronometers; a >good 1815 British Navy captain sailed with three of them and kept accurate >records of their relative drift, and noted their offset upon returning to >Greenwich. Lewis and Clark did not succeed in keeping a chronometer going continuously >while travelling, but, "Undaunted Courage" describes Lewis's process of taking >"lunars" to determine the true time. Quite so. L & C had "pocket chronometers" made by Arnold, presuambly using a detent escapement, but even so the accuracy over weeks would not be sufficient for computing longitude directly. David Thompson only posessed "common" watches - highly inaccurate things useless for computing longitude directly. >The moon is constantly eclipsing various >stars, which events are regular and can be put in tables. When the moon passes >in front of star x, the Greenwich time is exactly ___. If you set even an >average-quality watch to this time, it will still be close enough for a noon >sighting the next day. The positions of Jupiter's four moons was another >celestial clock. All of these events, of course, occur at inconvenient >intervals, and cloud cover was the bane of surveyors. It was not necessary to wait for the moon to eclipse a star (hardly ever happens for stars listed in the Nautical Almanac of the day). The observer simply chose a navigational star close to the ecliptic, and measured the distance from the limb of the moon to the star. He then "cleared the distance" of the effects of refraction using one of several techniques, and compared the result to the published distances as listed in the Nautical Almanac. David Thompson usually used the sun as the second object (as do I). Any given lunar distance will only yield a result accurate to about 20' (minutes) of longitude. So to get a position narrowed down to tolerable limits (say, within 5' longitude) one must make a dozen observations and average the results. For a complete explaination of these techniques see the cited Northwest Journal articles. By the time the 1800's rolled around, Jupiter's moons were no longer used for finding Greenwich time as the lunar distance method was far more convienient and yielded far more accurate results. >Using these methods, I believe >most of Lewis and Clark's positions were within 30 miles of their true position, >but as noted, this could be a deadly degree of error for a sailing ship. I stood at the Giant Springs of the Missouri River near Great Falls and measured their latitude as did Lewis. I was stunned to find that Lewis' latitude observation was in error by some 17 nautical miles. Even by the standards of his time this was a lousy observation. (David Thompson would have gotten it to within 1.5 Nautical Miles, I got it to under a kilometer) Perhaps Meriwether was having an especially bad day.... Pat, read my articles and give these techniques a try! I assume from your comments that you are an ocean navigator. Being land-locked, I developed an interest in studying how David Thompson was able to build such accurate maps. I have completely re-constructed his techniques, and, using my Astra IIIb sextant can nearly obtain the accuracy that he did with his Dollond. Doing this stuff will open up a whole new vista of fun (and humbling!) things you can do with your sextant. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have regarding the special problems of land navigation. Also- I have tables for f factors for altitudes above sea level &c. that you might be interested in... Regards, Jeff. agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 18 Jan 1998 04:17:43 EST Hello, This is the third time I've tried to submit this...perhaps this doesn't meet any historical requirements of this e-mail group but I do believe it does. I, more than, appreciated all the e-mails about navigation and damascus knives! Now on my next subject. It's about historically correct log homes. I'm interested in a particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log homes to be extact. They were two log homes or possibly three connected by a roof with spaces in between to create breezeways so that you would be able to cool off easier. Had huge wrap-around porches along with the breezeways. I would like sources to where to get info on those and to see if there's anybody building those modern dog-trot homes or those who get old homes and restore them etc. Also would like basic info on when dog-trot homes were first created etc. I also am interested in the Louisiana swamp homes built with cypress logs...heard that they are still built. You can see an excellent example of one in the movie "Old Man River". They also show my breed of dog (Louisiana Leopard Catahoula!) Does anyone know anything about both styles of houses?? I really would like to know. Also any www pages that are related to those as well. Thank you for any help that you are able to provide. Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 18 Jan 1998 04:20:43 EST In a message dated 98-01-18 01:33:56 EST, you write: << Many of the folk I hang around with are given their camp names for something they did, Sodbuster, (really tore up the ground when he got stuck) Rat Poker (4 footed kind between the liner and tipi), Slick (count your fingers when you're done trading -- won't cheat but always makes a good deal), Leadbottom, and so on >> Pretty much the way it works around here....one of my favorites is a gal called Lead Bottom, at a local vous a shot was made on the range, the ball hit the steel target square, bounced back and traveled about 300 yards and hot her in the arse as she was bending over to pick something up. Many Hats, this one is self explanitory. Longshot, (that's me) 120 yard 12" target three for three, three shoots in a row, on the last shot my partner turns and says "God Damn Longshot" Woodcutter, this boy has an obsession for going out to the woods and cutting wood, if his wood shed and all the excess wood outside the shed ever catches fire...St. Louis is history. Snapper, sometimes short tempered and had a bad weekend at a vous with his boy who was being as onery as possible, Snapper was "Snappin'" at the boy quite a bit that weekend. Animal, well, you should see him when he get's drunk. Spider, had the darnedest, biggest, ugliest spider you ever saw climbing up his leg one day at vous, set him to jumpin' and hollerin'. Long Toes, could cut one off and use it fer a fishing pole. Long Poles, (get's the girls interest up) had a 14 foot lodge with poles for a 24 footer, sorta looked like it would fall over. Later, also known as Tim Buck Too, because of a joke he was always tellin. His wife, Looks too Cold, wears a sweat shirt under her blouse, under her capote when it hits 50 degrees. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS <J2HEARTS@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 18 Jan 1998 11:30:34 EST Henry, I've also had luck heating an old screwdricer which fits the slot to red hot and slipping it into the screw. As it cools in the slot, apply pressure to the screw and see if it loosens. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel Date: 18 Jan 1998 14:37:22 -0600 Wahtahay- Send me a snail mail address. LongWalker c. du B. At 04:01 PM 1/17/98 +0000, you wrote: >Need a good drawing of a period (1800-1850) shovel to take over to my >blacksmith. Would appreciate it if someone has one that they could >ship me. thanks >Two Squaws Hiveranno >AMM # 914 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 18 Jan 1998 12:59:09 -0700 At 03:04 PM 1/17/98 -0700, Clay wrote: >Osborne Russell describes the nick names of several mountaineers in a >passage from his book-"Journal of a Trapper", page 39. He tells of the camp >keeper "art" of cooking "poor bull" by beating it with a club and says "He >then drops his club and draws his butcher knife calling to his comrades >"Come Major, Judge, Squire, Dollar, Pike, Cotton, and Gabe wont you take >lunch of Simon?" The editor of Russell's book, Aubrey Haines, tells us in a >foot note that by these nicknames Russell is refering to Joe Meek as >"Major", George Ebberts as "Squire", Cotton Mansfield as "Cotton", and James >Bridger as "Gabe". Haines also thinks that "Judge" may have been Russell's >nick name. I've always wondered about that, and what evidence Haines had. Russell did indeed become a judge when he settled in Oregon after his career as a mountian man, but it would have been an interesting coincidence if he was being called that at the time this particular scene occured. Perhaps when Russell got around to writing his Journal, he embellished the story a little, using the more dignified title. >No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a >historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names >on one another. I'd have to agree. Seems like the American mountain men were more likely to use their regular names, or titles. Don't know if it's true, but I remember reading somewhere that Joe Meek and Robert Newell decided that to be proper mountain men, they needed "titles", so they picked (out of thin air) Major and Doctor, respectively. Anybody got any idea why they called Bridger "Gabe?". Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen <dmullen@jemez.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 18 Jan 1998 21:33:18 +0000 Dean Rudy wrote: > > Anybody got any idea why they called Bridger "Gabe?". In _ "The Last Button on Gabe's Coat": Jim Bridger in the Southwest, 1834-1848_ (Wehrkamp, Tim. New Mexico Historical Quarterly, LXVI, April, 1991)- Mr. Wehrkamp makes the following statements: " It is easy to picture Bridger in 1837: tall and laconic; a wiry brigade leader of proven worth; a man respected as "Casapy," or "Blanket Chief" among the Crows. One scholar, Cecil Alter, believes that, around 1829, the biblically inspired Jedediah Smith christened Jim "Old Gabe." Smith's nickname for Bridger may have been an acknowledgment of the leadership qualities that, as trusted lieutenant, he shared in common with the angel Gabriel, that other notable second in command. Logical as this explanation seems, Alter's contention is nonetheless uncertain. (10)" Footnote: "10. Verification is difficult. According to Alter, Meek's "dictated recollections" imply that Jim became "Old Gabe" around 1829. Jedediah Smith's account, as Meek allegedly recalled it, does not appear in Mrs. Victor's _River of the West_. Alter, _Jim Bridger_, 110. I realize that Wehrkamp rebuts Cecil Alter's contention, but it is one possible origin of Bridgers nickname. Hope this is of some help. David -- David Mullen email:dmullen@jemez.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm <TBehm@compuserve.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 18 Jan 1998 23:48:13 -0500 Clay Landry Wrote >>No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a= historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled name= s on one another.... Maybe this "naming process" does have an historical basis-does anyone know???<< Clay, I too have never come across anywhere that the trappers refer to ea= ch other by indian names, I'm sure it developed in recent times, tho I can't= understand why. The local Rondezvous Club here always ask for your "Medicine Name" when you renew membership. I ignore it because what folk= s call me has nothing to do with indians or medicine. Padre Rolf (Terry Behm) On second thought, maybe my name DOES have something to do with medicine.= = It came about because of a hat and blanket coat I had quite a few years a= go and a particular mountain camp involving a broken tooth and most all the "medicine" in camp. You know, the tooth was the only part of me that didn't hurt the next morning ! :~) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm <TBehm@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel Date: 18 Jan 1998 23:48:14 -0500 Two Squaws asked >Need a good drawing of a period (1800-1850) shovel to take over to my >blacksmith. Mike the Sept/Oct Muzzleloader had a note in Prime Possibles about a small shovel that Arrowhead Forge was making, it was copied from "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by Neumann and Kravi= c. Looks pretty good, they want 20 bucks plus 5 for postage. phone number= is 605-938-4814. Terry Behm - Padre Rolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Byrd <dbyrd@aros.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trapping Season? Date: 19 Jan 1998 07:05:34 -0700 (MST) Hi Everyone: When is the best season for trapping? Is it winter, fall, spring, etc?? Back in the mid 1850's around the Canadian border, what pelts or furs were common? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <frank@hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 18 Jan 1998 21:53:47 -0800 Terry Behm wrote: > Clay, I too have never come across anywhere that the trappers refer to each > other by indian names, I'm sure it developed in recent times, tho I can't > understand why. The local Rondezvous Club here always ask for your > "Medicine Name" when you renew membership. I ignore it because what folks > call me has nothing to do with indians or medicine. Terry, My 2 cents on the topic that may well be worth only 3/4 cent due to inflation! I think that the "Medicine Name" is more than likely derived from the movies than history. To me, it really is a fun way to bond to fellow enthusiast. Often you get an insight into the person you're meeting for the first time and share a laugh over our common frailties! For those who are seeking a pure reenactment, it would probably be best to not use an Indian name or for that matter even talk about anything except the topics of the day! Limiting all conversation to only those topics that a mountain man of the period being emulated would have been aware of or discussing. We're an odd mix with varying levels of interest. The "Mountain Name" for me really helps to bridge the levels of interest and are a lot of fun. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 19 Jan 1998 09:03:14 -0700 Clay Landry wrote: >While there seems to be good evidence that some fur brigade Captains and >leaders had Indian styled names such as "Broken Hand" and "Blanket Chief" it >does not appear that the other white trappers referred to them by these >handles.<snip> >No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a >historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names >on one another. Clay, I quite agree with you that the ubiquitous "rendezvous names" seem to be a modern phenomenon. In the W. Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, almost everyone went by the names their mothers gave them. However, there are a small number of examples of nicknames. North West Company wintering partner John Macdonald of Garth might be familiar to those folks studying Astoria's later years. In letters, he was referrred to as John Macdonald (Garth) to distinguish him from another prominent John Macdonald of the North West Company. (Historians carry on the distinction for the same reason.) In his memoirs, he says that the voyageurs called him "bras croche" (crooked arm) because he had a withered right arm. Simon McTavish ran the North West Company with an iron hand until his death in 1804. Nor'westers called him "The Marquis" behind his back. George Simpson, who ran the HBC in Canada for many years was called "The Little Emperor" (behind his back) because, like Napoleon, he was small in stature but still very powerful. John Rowand Sr., who ran Fort Edmonton for many years, was called "One Pound One" because he had a bad leg, which he dragged when he walked, making a sound like "one pound one" as he crossed the floor. Joseph Landry, who was Nor'wester Alexander Mackenzie's steersman in 1789, on his Arctic Ocean voyage, and again in 1793, on his voyage to the Pacific, was called "Cadien" (Acadian) because he was born in the old Acadian area of what is now New Brunswick & Nova Scotia. Another voyageur, Charles Doucette, was also called "Cadien" for the same reason. In fact, voyageurs seem to have been more likely to have had nicknames than non-voyageurs (although nicknames were not at all usual). The French word "dit" (pronounced "dee" or "deet") means "called" and Joseph Landry's full name is Joseph Landry dit Cadien. There are other voyageurs with "dit" surnames--Jean-Baptiste Boucher dit Waccan, Joseph Pelletier dit Antaya--and quite frankly I don't really understand "dit" surnames, except that, as the above examples show, they are not always French nicknames (neither Waccan nor Antaya are French words, so far as I know). Some French names of voyageurs, such as La Malice and La Framboise, might be nicknames ("Malice/Trick", "Raspberry"). Since English has proper surnames like "Greenwood" ("Boisverd" in French), and Japanese has surnames like "Tanaka" ("middle field"), I'm not going to jump to any conclusions about La Malice and La Framboise without further research. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A gift answers Date: 19 Jan 1998 10:31:35 -0600 Washtahay- At 03:57 PM 1/17/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-17 00:22:32 EST, you write: > ><< Well, actually, it is. Commonly sold as wootz. If you can call a > commodity like that "common". > >Wouldn't call it "common" cuz I wasn't aware of it being made. As far as I know, it is still on an experimental basis. Very hard to make on anything approaching a cost-effective basis. > >< True damascus steel was apparently made by packing small pieces of > wrought iron in a carbon bearing material, then sealing in some type of > container (probably clay). > >Excelent description of "crucible steel". From my sources, Damascus was >hammered & folded, not "cooked". Let me rephrase my earlier comments...the fabled steel that made the reputation of Damascus steel is the wootz. Try this...take a silk scarf and drop it on the cutting edge of a 'common' pattern-welded blade (not Japanese). Then do it with a wootz blade. The scarf will drop in two pieces from the wootz blade. The 'edge' that the Japanese blade has seems to be from the differential heat treatment it received, then the sharpening process employed. 'Common' pattern weld won't take an edge like that. Wootz differs from crucible steel in that, as I recall, wootz has larger carbide particles, is cooked at a different temp and for a different amount of time, and pre-dates crucible steel by about 1000+ years. >that are > necessary to be commercially viable. > >Where? Would like to play with some! Well, I got about 1000 pounds by writing to a history teacher near an old source of bog iron. He came up with the ore from a local source. The stuff is still there, but it is no longer worth refining. Its greater purity and ease of refinement don't outweigh the small quantities. Kinda like meteoric iron-with a little luck and the right contacts, you can get it. > > < By definition, steel is iron with the addition of carbon. > >Strange -- one of the problems with wedlability of cast iron is due to it's >high carbon content. Hey, I just use these terms, i didn't make them up! > > < From what I have seen, the pattern welded steel from Atlanta Cutlery > and Damascus USA seems to lack some of the character of hand made steel. > The pattern is too 'even' for want of a better word. It also seems to have > a lower carbon content than steel available from some of the custom makers, > so it might not hold an edge as well as the steel in a custom knife. > >I was going to try some sometime, but we have a local producer that makes some >nice stuff. Sounds like they just weld the flat bars & don't do much layer >manipulation. Yep. And the more I think about it, the more I wonder if they don't have a carbon migration problem. Anyone reading my comments about Atlanta Cutlery's steel should know that I haven't examined a sample in about a year. >Have you seen the book "Complete Bladesmith" by -- uh-oh I >can't spell his last name -- starts with a "H" -- first name Jim -- can't find >my copy either. Atlanta Cutlery had some of his work 1 time only. He's into >medieval swords primarily but wrote 2 books on bladesmithing I've seen that >are excelent -- I have (had) one of them. Ah -- Found it!! Jim Hrisoulas -- >ISBN 0-87364-430-1. Yeah, I have one of his blades. Good steel, good workmanship. > >< On those rare occasions when I have wanted to put the work into > making a pattern welded knife, I have used O1 steel and wrought iron. It > has always proven satisfactory for all uses to which I put a working knife. > >That aughta work fine. O1 is excelent knife material. I've always wanted to >use wrought iron & 1095, but have problems finding the wrought iron. When I >DO find it, I generaly wind up using it before the mood strikes to make a >knife 'cuz it welds so much easier than A36. Think wagon tires. Around here (Nebraska) I can find wrought iron wagon wheels easily. > > wootz, starting with bog iron. It is a really cool steel, a real pleasure > to use as a knife. But it is too time, labor, and cost intensive for me. > As a friend says, "It has a high value density". And frankly, I am just not > into it enough to do it. I figure the 5" wootz blade I have took several > hundred hours of research and experimentation, probably 200 hours of actual > work to make the blade from the iron, and cost probably $300 in fuel, clay, > iron, and burn ointment. And it is still not perfect. > >Think I mentioned the phrase "labor intensive"! I don't have a power hammer, >so I have to do it the hard way. That must have been a fun expirament! >Probably a lot of "AW $HI+s!" involved too huh? Power WHAT? Hey, I am talking a 200 pound anvil and me and a friend with 8 pound sledges! LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re Celestial navigation: Date: 19 Jan 1998 11:26:12 -0700 Re Celestial navigation: Angela's husband Jeff responded to my surmises about celestial nagivation with the voice of experience. I should state that I have never used a sextant, although I can picture the elementary geometry. I am gratified that my attempt to explain the basics of a complex subject brought a REAL navigator out of the woodwork. Jeff reports a number of techniques which I could only surmise -- my thanks. I know SLIGHTLY more about ocean navigation because my older brother has used celestial navigation as a back up to, and sometimes in lieu of, more modern navigational methods while ferrying small aircraft around the world, and we both share a great enjoyment of Patrick O'Brian's magnificent series on the early 19th century British Navy, in which a little navigational technique is mentioned. Thanks again for the full report! Jeff's mention of the Nautical Tables, and the descriptions of the 6-month cram course in botany and navigation which Jefferson had Meriwether Lewis take before the expedition, makes one appreciate how hard our ancestors worked to obtain the results they got. They had only the most elementary observational tools (a few books and basic instruments) and reporting methods (eyewitness journals and sketches conveyed to seats of learning by slow surface transportation), since EVERYTHING was hand made. Compared to today's glut of data and frequently superficial methods of analysis, I can't help being struck by the rigorous mental discipline and use of logic which enabled them to establish elements of scientific discovery 200 years ago which still hold up today. Pat Quilter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES <CTOAKES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel Date: 19 Jan 1998 15:58:30 EST In a message dated 98-01-19 00:13:43 EST, you write: << Mike the Sept/Oct Muzzleloader had a note in Prime Possibles about a small shovel that Arrowhead Forge was making, it was copied from "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by Neumann and Kravic. Looks pretty good, they want 20 bucks plus 5 for postage. phone number is 605-938-4814. >> I ordered one and it is really nice. Looks just like the one in the book and it is STRONG, he uses thick sheet steel and rivets. My wife took one look at it and said "good now take the modern shovel out of the trailer". I will tell you that the head is smaller then a modern spade and this means it will take up less space in the trailer and maybe one or two more shovel fulls to dig a fire pit. But Arrowhead Forge does a nice job if you want a shovel. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Flashguards Date: 19 Jan 1998 17:46:41 EST How....the list, I'm headed up to the "Rain de voo" in Olympia, WA next month and I'm trying to fit a flashguard to my smoothbore. The lock is a "Tulle" type and has an unbridled frizzen....so the guard just goes under the screw that the frizzen rotates on......if I tighten it up, it goes up and down with the frizzen. Is this correct? .. or should it remain in a fixed postion. If I tighten the screw down, the frizzen will not flip up! Bumming me out....... On my rifle, ( it has a large Siler) I've got a long screw and nut (it's got a bridle) so not a problem.....and the flashguard remains fixed. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 19 Jan 1998 18:45:26 -0700 Re: Watches Recently I surfed the net for information about antique pocket watches and located quite a bit of information, including pictures of many antique watches for sale. I'm not sure how to tell the difference between a stem-wind watch and a key wind watch by looking at pictures of them, but there are sure a number of watches dated prior to 1850 that don't appear to have a key hole. One interesting item from David Thompson's journal during his early years with the Hudson Bay Co. prior to his defection to the North West Fur Co., is that just as soon a clock was available that the HBC considered dependable and accurate enough to calculating longitude the Company immediately shipped Thompson one from England. There were no details about what the timepiece was like. I can't recall where I saw the photograph, but within the last year I saw a picture of one of the great western explorer's pocket watches. It was a fairly ordinary looking watch, but was protected inside an inletted hinged solid hardwood case which increases its bulk to a degree that it would have fit inside few pockets. The bulky wooden case suggests to me that just because it was a pocket watch doesn't mean that it was casually carried inside the explorer's pocket while blazing trails through the Rocky Mountains. They may have treated them with the same respect that they treated the sextant or other scientific instruments. Thompson also managed to carry thermometers up and down and across North America without breaking them. -----Original Message----- >At 08:21 AM 1/14/98 -0700, Jon wrote: >> >>There was watches in the mountains and were not uncommon. What I want to >>know how did they keep them dry. They had key wound watches don't know >>when stem watches came into being. >> > >Stem wound watches are after 1850. Watches were very expensive. It would >be difficult to keep one dry and functional in the mountains, for long. >I've had a couple of nice old ones (key wind) in perfect condition. Never >could keep one running two weeks in the mountains. > >A watch would have been uncommon except perhaps for Stewart, Fremont, >Bonneville and the like. It ain't like they had parking meters to feed and >meetings to attend or a Day Planner to keep track of. Not a very useful >tool in the mountains. An expensive luxury of greatest value to surveyors, >cartographers and such. > >John... >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJZapfel <DJZapfel@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 19 Jan 1998 22:15:07 EST Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue what I was lokking for. Thanks Don Zapfel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJZapfel <DJZapfel@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 19 Jan 1998 22:39:01 EST I tell ya speakin' of those good ole camp names, I've got a story for all ya. About four or five years ago, up here in the mighty Wisconsin, at the Saukville randayvooze we were sippin' some of the finest applepie, the best home brew, and so on. Well I was there with Coffeeman, Del, Casts a Large Shadow and God only knows who else. My crazy brother, Jimbo was in need of serious greenbacks for the need of that stuff that powers an iron horse. Well, dear Jimbo had this bright idea, he's make a penny or three off the flatlanders that come through camp, but they weren't falling for those blanket goodies. it was late and Jimbo was a cryin' about his woes and all that. Casts a Large Shadow says, "don't you worry dear Jimbo, you'll be okay. You just have to make some skins some other way." And that is where it all began. Casts A Large Shadow, who likes a hot thing from time to time had the hottest peppers around that night, Habenjeros adn Itell you what one those crazy skinners dared ole Jimbo dip his skinners pride into well, them there peppers for a couple of bucks. Jimbo being a free trapper, a crazy skinner, a "mountainman" upped the anty for more cash. Soon there was a couple greenbacks all ready for the taken'. Well Jimbo saw the green comin' to life before hsi eyes, in fact now he would be able to feed the iron horse and feed himself too. So Jimbo went about with a dippin' his pride and as soon as he did, well, lets just say all the skinners around were shocked and surprised. Jimbo took that pepper saucelike a trooper, and didn't sqeal or hoolar or nuthin". Not until he ran off and cried like a squaw on firewater. Well, after that night, he was given the nickname "Dooper." Shortly there after ole Dooper got himself a baby girl and you know what, she is a red head, go figure. Enjoy this tale everyone, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 19 Jan 1998 22:36:37 EST In a message dated 98-01-18 22:04:32 EST, you write: << Anybody got any idea why they called Bridger "Gabe?". >> Short for Gabriel -- he was always ready to bail someone out of trouble, so was in effect their "grardian angel". Also refered to his leadership abilities. Supposedly given to him by Jed Smith. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 20 Jan 1998 10:11:07 -0600 (CST) >Well I'm sure alot of folks will have their own ideas but I usually use >boiling water with dishwashing liquid in it and soak it until the water >cools off. The screw driver should fit the slotjust as others have said >also if the screw driver is hollow ground it helps also. What's hollow ground? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 19 Jan 1998 22:47:20 EST In a message dated 98-01-18 13:39:55 EST, you write: << It's about historically correct log homes. I'm interested in a particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log homes to be extact. >> Best source I know of is "The Foxfire Book" ISBN 0-385-07353-4 Edited by Eliot Wigginton. There's a whole series of "Foxfore Books" -- this is vol one of the set. Covers cabin building, chimney building, shingle making -- 'bout all you need to know 'bout building a log cabin. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 20 Jan 1998 18:04:06 EST Clay, This is an excellent topic and I look forward to some good responses. I'm just afraid we're in for a barrage of examples and explanations of modern "Mountain Man names." Still it was worth the asking. Maybe it all began with Alexander the Great? Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 20 Jan 1998 18:21:25 +0000 Jim Bridger by Cecil Alter p. 110 says that as a LT under Smith and Sublette that Bridger had some success at communicating the word of authority. The angel Gabriel had the mythical duty of revealing God's will and to Smith's mind the Bible enabled him to see Bridger as Old Gabriel. Don Keas Dean Rudy wrote: >At 03:04 PM 1/17/98 -0700, Clay wrote: > >>Osborne Russell describes the nick names of several mountaineers in a >>passage from his book-"Journal of a Trapper", page 39. He tells of the camp >>keeper "art" of cooking "poor bull" by beating it with a club and says "He >>then drops his club and draws his butcher knife calling to his comrades >>"Come Major, Judge, Squire, Dollar, Pike, Cotton, and Gabe wont you take >>lunch of Simon?" The editor of Russell's book, Aubrey Haines, tells us in a >>foot note that by these nicknames Russell is refering to Joe Meek as >>"Major", George Ebberts as "Squire", Cotton Mansfield as "Cotton", and James >>Bridger as "Gabe". Haines also thinks that "Judge" may have been Russell's >>nick name. > >I've always wondered about that, and what evidence Haines had. Russell did >indeed become a judge when he settled in Oregon after his career as a >mountian man, but it would have been an interesting coincidence if he was >being called that at the time this particular scene occured. Perhaps when >Russell got around to writing his Journal, he embellished the story a >little, using the more dignified title. > > >>No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a >>historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names >>on one another. > >I'd have to agree. Seems like the American mountain men were more likely >to use their regular names, or titles. Don't know if it's true, but I >remember reading somewhere that Joe Meek and Robert Newell decided that to >be proper mountain men, they needed "titles", so they picked (out of thin >air) Major and Doctor, respectively. > >Anybody got any idea why they called Bridger "Gabe?". > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com >Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A3CC72600DE; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:09:00 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xu7SM-0003Ce-00; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:00:58 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xu7SK-0003CP-00; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:00:56 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >UAA09131 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:00:54 -0700 (MST) >Received: from mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22] > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xu0tU-00076i-00; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:00:32 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [204.228.159.88] > by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0xu0tS-0004hm-00; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:00:31 -0700 >Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980118125909.00a345b0@mail.xmission.com> >X-Sender: drudy@mail.xmission.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) >Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:59:09 -0700 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names >In-Reply-To: <199801172204.PAA01456@wtpprod1.wtp.net> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881269717 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 20 Jan 1998 06:31:56 GMT On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:17:43 EST, you wrote: Ted, I am sending this to you via email, as all my attempts to post to the history list, or even Dean Rudy have been bounced for the last month. I'm sending a copy to the blackpowder mailing list also. The cabin you describe strikes me as a later style. I could be wrong, but my mother owns the Henry Bean cabin in Tennessee. Henry Bean was the first permanent white settler in east Tennessee back in the 1700's. About 15 years ago, my Mom and Dad bought the cabin, moved it to their place and completely restored it. Dad has since died, but Mom would be more than glad to show it to you, or discuss the moving and reconstruction. The cabin is now located in Cocke County, just outside of Cosby, some 50 miles east of Knoxville, TN. Let me know if you are interested in more info. I'm sure she would be glad to show you the cabin and the documentation. Davy Crockett supposedly once used this cabin for a year as a trading post. Cabin is original except for one or two logs too badly damaged. The original door is in bad shape, but preserved in one of the outbuildings along with the original wooden hinges.=20 The other cabin on the place is a modern version of the dog-trot. Dad aquired 2 cabins that could have been set up as a dog-trot. Instead, he installed a modern kitchen where the dog-trot was, and left the original cabins as they were, just connected them. These particular cabins are made of chestnut logs some 24 inches in thickness. =46or those on the blackpowder list, this is the area we discussed a month or two ago for a possible "Echo Rendezvous". Never heard any comments pro/con, so never pursued it, although Mom said 50-100 acre sites are likely available for small groups as long as we stay well away from her still, whatever that is. >Hello, > >This is the third time I've tried to submit this...perhaps this doesn't >meet any historical requirements of this e-mail group but I do believe = it >does. I, more than, appreciated all the e-mails about navigation and >damascus knives! Now on my next subject. > >It's about historically correct log homes. I'm interested in a >particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log >homes to be extact. They were two log homes or possibly three connected >by a roof with spaces in between to create breezeways so that you would >be able to cool off easier. Had huge wrap-around porches along with the >breezeways. I would like sources to where to get info on those and to >see if there's anybody building those modern dog-trot homes or those who >get old homes and restore them etc. Also would like basic info on when >dog-trot homes were first created etc. I also am interested in the >Louisiana swamp homes built with cypress logs...heard that they are = still >built. You can see an excellent example of one in the movie "Old Man >River". They also show my breed of dog (Louisiana Leopard Catahoula!)=20 >Does anyone know anything about both styles of houses?? I really would >like to know. Also any www pages that are related to those as well.=20 >Thank you for any help that you are able to provide. > >Ted > Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Byrd <dbyrd@aros.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Trapping Date: 21 Jan 1998 06:30:12 -0700 (MST) Hi Folks: Does anyone know when the best times to trap are (for the best hides/pelts)? Does trapping in the winter months produce good results? Does anyone know where I can find good information on Trapping? Any info would be appreciated. Best wishes, Dale dbyrd@aros.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Time and Damascus Steel Date: 21 Jan 1998 11:23:54 -0600 At 06:45 PM 1/19/98 -0700, you wrote: >Re: Watches > >Recently I surfed the net for information about antique pocket watches and >located quite a bit of information, including pictures of many antique >watches for sale. > >I'm not sure how to tell the difference between a stem-wind watch and a key >wind watch by looking at pictures of them, but there are sure a number of >watches dated prior to 1850 that don't appear to have a key hole. Many of the old key winders required that the back or sometimes the front be popped open to access the key hole. Look at the stem and see if it turns. Caveat Emptor. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flashguards Date: 21 Jan 1998 13:31:01 EST In a message dated 98-01-21 11:17:15 EST, you write: > I'm trying > to fit a flashguard to my smoothbore. The lock is a "Tulle" type and has an > unbridled frizzen....so the guard just goes under the screw that the frizzen > rotates on......if I tighten it up, it goes up and down with the frizzen. Is > this correct? .. or should it remain in a fixed postion. If I tighten the > screw down, the frizzen will not flip up! Bumming me out. Steve, Mine has a hole drilled slightly under the pan, and the flashguard is bent slightly into place. It is permanent this way, and interferes with nothing. Just drill and tap a hole in the appropriate location and attach it to the lock. Mine is brass, which makes the cold forming part a little easier. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Trapping Date: 21 Jan 1998 11:56:14 -0800 In a recent post Dale Byrd asked about traping seasons and what species were trapped along the Canadian border in the 1850's......... Hi Dale: Nowdays our trapping seasons are set by the State Game Departments to open when the furs become prime in the early winter months (in mid- November here in Oregon) and they close depending on species in the early spring. There were no seasons earlier and the mainstay of trappers were the beaver. They were trapped nearly year round. Fall, winter and spring months were the main trapping seasons. Your question about what pelts were taken by trappers along the Canadian border in the mid 1850's, covers a lot of different areas and specicies. Trapping as late as the 1850's still centered around the "Beaver" even in it's waning years. Trappers turned to other abundant species along the border, such as muskrat, mink, otter, fisher, marten, lynx, bobcat, mountain lion and bear. As buffalo hides became of value it took some of the trapping pressure off other fur species for a while, at least for those trappers who were in the buffalo areas. For a lot of early trappers like John Johnston (liver eater) that stayed in the mountains and trapped because thats what he wanted to do and didn't come out of the mountains until the 1890's to become Sheriff of Red Lodge, Montana. Others like Joe Meek came to Oregon and settled down becoming our first law enforcement agent. The trappers turned buffalo hide hunters remained on the praries until the buffalo were all but gone. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2 <Rkleinx2@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 21 Jan 1998 15:16:43 EST Lest we forget 'Black' Harris Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Trapping Date: 21 Jan 1998 15:29:30 EST In a message dated 98-01-21 15:07:09 EST, you write: > Does anyone know when the best times to trap are (for the best hides/pelts)? The best time is during the trapping season. Otherwise you are breaking the law. > Does anyone know where I can find good information on Trapping? Go to your state wildlife agency, agricultural agency, or Dept. of Natural Resources. Depending on your age, you may be required to take a Trapping course before you can purchase a trapping license. If not needed, take the course anyway. Join the newsgroup alt.animals.furtrapping. It just started up in the last couple of months. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J2HEARTS <J2HEARTS@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 21 Jan 1998 17:13:42 EST Henry, Most screwdrivers have a /\ point. Hollow ground is something like )( groung on the tip so it won't have a tendency to slip out of the slot in the screw. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Winter Trapping Date: 21 Jan 1998 15:24:35 -0800 Hi Dale, For more info on trapping look up trapping in your search engines. There are lots of information web-pages on trapping. You can also check with your State Fish & Game Department, they can tell you about seasons, license requirements and trapping organizations in your area. Good luck. _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 21 Jan 1998 18:12:47 EST Angella writes: > Clay, I quite agree with you that the ubiquitous "rendezvous names" seem to > be a modern phenomenon. In the W. Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, almost > everyone went by the names their mothers gave them. However, there are a > small number of examples of nicknames. If you read Allan Eckert's series of books, there are extensive reference to men being known by many names. Many white men were known by the names that the Indians had given them; and conversely many Indians had Christian names, either through adoption or baptism. While his books are interpretive fiction, they are based on good references. I once did a database of all the characters appearing in all his books; in the text and appendices. Then, whenever I ran across the same individual in other readings, I added that to the database. It listed where they were mentioned, what tribe they were associated with, when, and all known spellings and pronunciations of their name. In some cases, there were 12 or more different names for each individual. I spent about 2 years compiling this database, and it is now relegated to the archives as it was done with a DOS program that will not run under Windows 3.1 or 95, and used a proprietary filetype that cannot be imported into other programs. I guess the whole point of this is that men were known by many names in many different places, and called by the one that was appropriate for where they happened to be at the time. "Handles" seemed to be fairly common thoughout the West in later times; ie, Buffalo Bill, Billy the Kid, Doc Holiday, Sundance Kid, et al. How this relates to the Fur Trade era, I don't know, but this type of naming seemed to be prevalent before and after it occurred. Dave Kanger "OldFox" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 21 Jan 1998 17:55:11 PST Contact Ron & Gayle Harris at buckskin@cyberramp.net They have a bookstore and generally have many good titles in stock. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > > Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue > what I was lokking for. > > Thanks > Don Zapfel > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 21 Jan 1998 18:07:25 PST more re: Russell's journal ask for isbn no: 0-8032-5166-1 The book is edited by aubrey L. Haines and was published by the University of Nebraska press. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > > Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue > what I was lokking for. > > Thanks > Don Zapfel > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Trapping Date: 21 Jan 1998 18:15:46 PST First thing to do is contact your state parks & wildlife dept, or whatever your state calls it--or ask a local game warden--when it is LEGAL to trap furs and what licenses are required. Big Zwey ---------- > Hi Folks: > > Does anyone know when the best times to trap are (for the best hides/pelts)? > > Does trapping in the winter months produce good results? > > Does anyone know where I can find good information on Trapping? > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Best wishes, > > > Dale > dbyrd@aros.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <SEGUNDO@bigfoot.com> Subject: MtMan-List: '98 EPR Web site Date: 21 Jan 1998 20:06:13 -0500 Hear Ye, Hear Ye all good and decent persons are invited to visit the site of the '98 EPR. Skinners welcome too! Lots of info along with a few pictures. Drop by and let us know what you think. URL is http://home.earthlink.net/~segundo98/ Keep yer top knot, Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clay Landry <Landry@wtp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Journal Of A Trapper Date: 21 Jan 1998 18:47:25 -0700 (MST) At 10:15 PM 1/19/98 EST, you wrote: >Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls >book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue >what I was lokking for. > >Thanks >Don Zapfel > Don You can order "Journal Of A Trapper" by Osborne Russell ed by Aubrey Haines from the University of Nebraska Press. They have published this book for years. I also saw a hard bound edition in our local Barnes and Noble book store. Most used book stores have a copy of the paper back edition. University of Nebraska Press P.O. Box 880484 Linclon Nebraska 68588-0484 phone 18007551105 fax 18005262617 internet; press@unlinfo.unl.edu Clay Landry P.O. Box 1033 Columbus MT 59019 -------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 21 Jan 1998 21:39:24 EST Oh forgot to add that a still is where you make corn whiskey or some such alcoholic drink. I've tasted moonshine made in South Carolina....made my hair stand on end! Cheers, Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 20 Jan 1998 12:35:48 -0800 Henry B. Crawford wrote: > I have an 1860 Colt Army (repro) that I need to disassemble to do some > surgery on it's innards (needs a new hand-and-spring). The two screws > behind the trigger holding the trigger guard in place won't come out. Hi Henry, I recemend the use of gunsmith screwdrivers as they have parallel griping surface rather than taperd like standerd types. If you are unable to remove the screws you will have to drill and use a screw extractor. Don't use the type that has a long taperd square shaft with slots cut into the edges, they'er worthless. Instead use the type that has a taperd round shaft with reverse threads cut into the shaft. The package it comes in will tell you what size drill bit to use. I have a 1851 colt navy (repo) that has had two hands replaced so far. I took mine to a local BP gunsmith to do the job as I simply didn't have the time, which as you say, may be the wisest choice. Whatever you decide, good luck. Regards, Terry Smith >I've tried penetrating oil, and all that does is make my screwdriver slip. I am > not using gunsmithing screwdrivers, which might be part of the problem. I > also know that the guy the gun came from didn't seem to take care of it. I > could only pop three of the nipples. Anyway, I need a solution. Do I need > to take it to a gunsmith or is there something else I can try at home? I > don't want to strip the screw heads, so for now I am resolved to leave it > until I get some help from those well versed in bp revolver gunsmithing. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel Date: 20 Jan 1998 16:30:58 -0800 Mike Katona wrote: > > Need a good drawing of a period (1800-1850) shovel to take over to my > blacksmith. Would appreciate it if someone has one that they could > ship me. thanks > Two Squaws Hiveranno > AMM # 914 Greetings Mike, Try contacting John White at Avalon Forge: avlonfrg@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 21 Jan 1998 20:42:35 -0800 DJZapfel wrote: > > Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue > what I was lokking for. > > Thanks > Don Zapfel Hi Don, Have you tried Amazon books? Their web stie is something like www.amazonbooks.com , give it a try. Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dog Trot Cabins Date: 21 Jan 1998 21:02:35 -0800 Ted A Hart wrote: >I'm interested in a particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log homes to be extact. Greetings Ted, "The Log Cabin" Homes of the North American Wilderness. By Alex W. Bealer and John O. Ellis. Barre Publishing, Barre, Mass. Distributed by Crown Publishers, Inc. New York. This book has 11 pages on "Dogtrot" cabins. Hope this helps. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rian-de -Voo Date: 21 Jan 1998 21:11:56 -0800 SWcushing wrote: > > How....the list, > I'm headed up to the "Rain de voo" in Olympia, WA next month Greetings Steve, I'm trying to convince the Mrs's that we should go to the "Rain-de-voo" at least to socialize if nothing else. So if you happen to see a medium blue 1971 International pickup truck with a 1971 Roll-a-Long camper on it, stop by and say hello. Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1860 Army Colt Date: 21 Jan 1998 21:22:50 -0800 Henry B. Crawford wrote: > What's hollow ground? Greetings Henry, "Hollow grinding" is the process of removing material in a rounded groove. You have no doubt seen this done on knives, swords, gun barrles and such. The process ligthens and strengthens the item. Hope this helps. Regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <frank@hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 21 Jan 1998 22:04:24 -0800 DJZapfel wrote: > Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue > what I was lokking for. Yup! Try http://www.amazon.com/I've found them to be fast and easy. Their prices are reasonable too! Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 22 Jan 1998 03:01:52 EST In a message dated 98-01-21 11:17:56 EST, you write: << Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue what I was lokking for. >> Dean has that one available for download in his archives -- or at least parts of it. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Echo 'vous Date: 22 Jan 1998 08:08:45 EST Roy, You mention posting something about an "echo randevous". I'm sorry, I missed that one some how. If you are still interested in doing it, when and where are you thinking of? Please, drop me a line. I am curious, but I don't know what I could actually do this year. By the way, I am sure your mom just means to not disturb her peace and quite at night when she says to keep away from her still... Yeah, that must be it... :-) Thanks for your time. John F. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" <admgilb@amber.indstate.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Journal Of A Trapper Date: 22 Jan 1998 10:22:53 -0500 > > At 10:15 PM 1/19/98 EST, you wrote: > >Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > >book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no clue > >what I was lokking for. > > > >Thanks > >Don Zapfel > > Try this site: http://daniel.interloc.com great site to look for books!!! Colleen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin <AustinT@silltcmd-smtp.army.mil> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names -Reply Date: 22 Jan 1998 09:23:32 -0600 The Museum of the Great Plains in Lawton, OK sells the book for sure. The last time I was at Bent's Old Fort in LaJunta, CO they also had it. Almost every place I have been in the West has it, talking of museums and the like. Not that difficult to find. There are several people that have sale catalogues, that deal with mountain men stuff that sell it. Good luck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dog Trot Cabins Date: 22 Jan 1998 09:38:04 -0600 (CST) >Ted A Hart wrote: > >>I'm interested in a particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the >>South. Dog-trot log homes to be extact. > Our museum has 33 historic structures, including a dogtrot log house (if the dwelling has more than one room, it's a house, not a cabin) from the Texas Hill Country. Write me off-line (or call) if you want more info. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dog Trot Cabins Date: 22 Jan 1998 09:49:56 -0600 (CST) >>Ted A Hart wrote: >> >>>I'm interested in a particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the >>>South. Dog-trot log homes to be extact. >> >Our museum has 33 historic structures, including a dogtrot log house (if >the dwelling has more than one room, it's a house, not a cabin) from the >Texas Hill Country. Write me off-line (or call) if you want more info. >HBC Meanwhile, take a look at Terry Jordan, _Texas Log Buildings: A Folk Architecture_, and John Vlach, _Back of the Big House: The Architecture of Plantation Slavery_. Both historias are well versed in the technical terminology of historical architecture. Jordan's book is a demographic study of log structure types, and Vlach deals with the the variety of architecture styles built by and/or for American slave use. Both are profusely illustrated. good luck HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nick Names/Camp Names Date: 22 Jan 1998 11:54:31 -0700 Re: Nick Names/Camp Names Not only did mountain men generally not use Indian names, neither did many Indian mountain men and Metis who were a very important part of the trapping population. Many of the mountain men with French names, such as Old Pierre for whom Pierre's Hole was named, were Iroquois. The Iroquois had Iroquois names but apparently didn't use them as a matter of choice fur trade business. Being Indian seems to be more popular in 1998 than it was 1838. -----Original Message----- >Clay Landry wrote: >>While there seems to be good evidence that some fur brigade Captains and >>leaders had Indian styled names such as "Broken Hand" and "Blanket Chief" it >>does not appear that the other white trappers referred to them by these >>handles.<snip> >>No where in the literature of the Rocky Mountain fur trade can I find a >>historical precident or inference for trappers hanging Indian styled names >>on one another. > >Clay, I quite agree with you that the ubiquitous "rendezvous names" seem to >be a modern phenomenon. In the W. Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, almost >everyone went by the names their mothers gave them. However, there are a >small number of examples of nicknames. > >North West Company wintering partner John Macdonald of Garth might be >familiar to those folks studying Astoria's later years. In letters, he was >referrred to as John Macdonald (Garth) to distinguish him from another >prominent John Macdonald of the North West Company. (Historians carry on the >distinction for the same reason.) In his memoirs, he says that the voyageurs >called him "bras croche" (crooked arm) because he had a withered right arm. > >Simon McTavish ran the North West Company with an iron hand until his death >in 1804. Nor'westers called him "The Marquis" behind his back. > >George Simpson, who ran the HBC in Canada for many years was called "The >Little Emperor" (behind his back) because, like Napoleon, he was small in >stature but still very powerful. > >John Rowand Sr., who ran Fort Edmonton for many years, was called "One Pound >One" because he had a bad leg, which he dragged when he walked, making a >sound like "one pound one" as he crossed the floor. > >Joseph Landry, who was Nor'wester Alexander Mackenzie's steersman in 1789, >on his Arctic Ocean voyage, and again in 1793, on his voyage to the Pacific, >was called "Cadien" (Acadian) because he was born in the old Acadian area of >what is now New Brunswick & Nova Scotia. Another voyageur, Charles >Doucette, was also called "Cadien" for the same reason. > >In fact, voyageurs seem to have been more likely to have had nicknames than >non-voyageurs (although nicknames were not at all usual). The French word >"dit" (pronounced "dee" or "deet") means "called" and Joseph Landry's full >name is Joseph Landry dit Cadien. There are other voyageurs with "dit" >surnames--Jean-Baptiste Boucher dit Waccan, Joseph Pelletier dit Antaya--and >quite frankly I don't really understand "dit" surnames, except that, as the >above examples show, they are not always French nicknames (neither Waccan >nor Antaya are French words, so far as I know). Some French names of >voyageurs, such as La Malice and La Framboise, might be nicknames >("Malice/Trick", "Raspberry"). Since English has proper surnames like >"Greenwood" ("Boisverd" in French), and Japanese has surnames like "Tanaka" >("middle field"), I'm not going to jump to any conclusions about La Malice >and La Framboise without further research. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russell Date: 22 Jan 1998 13:23:30 -0700 (MST) > > In a message dated 98-01-21 11:17:56 EST, you write: > > << Can someone direct me to a place where I can pick Osbourne Russlls > book,"Jouranl of a Trapper?" I went to my local bookstore and they had no > clue > what I was lokking for. >> > > Dean has that one available for download in his archives -- or at least parts > of it. > NM > > Nope, all of it. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/ruslintr.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rian-de -Voo Date: 22 Jan 1998 21:02:29 EST Ho Terry, Will look for your rig....had planned on bring my lodge but looks like I'll only get to spend maybe a day there...probably will rain too!! If anyone is interested here's the web page on the "Rain-de-vous" http://www.olywa.net/mmccahan/raindev.html Should be great fun and a good reason to get out of the house...... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: '98 EPR Web site Date: 22 Jan 1998 18:34:25 -0800 (PST) Don I stopped by the site, Mainpage was up and running, but none of the links were operational?? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Donald A. Ricetti wrote: > Hear Ye, Hear Ye all good and decent persons are invited to visit the > site of the '98 EPR. Skinners welcome too! Lots of info along with a few > pictures. Drop by and let us know what you think. URL is > http://home.earthlink.net/~segundo98/ > Keep yer top knot, > Bear > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trapping Season? Date: 22 Jan 1998 13:59:14 -0700 -----Original Message----- >Hi Everyone: > >When is the best season for trapping? Is it winter, fall, spring, etc?? > >Back in the mid 1850's around the Canadian border, what pelts or furs were >common? > >Any help would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > > >Dale > > Re: Pelts and trapping seasons >From the historical perspective, dates make a big difference in how you questions are answered. My answers to your questions are longer and more complex than you probably expected. Historically, beaver reached their highest value before silk replaced beaver as the preferred natural resource for making men's hats. That change, and the resulting drop in beaver prices, brought an end to the rendezvous period of the fur trade by 1840. When the main value for beaver was for felting the underfur, the concept of "prime" was different than it is now with fur traders allowing a much broader latitude in what they accepted as prime for purchase. Consequently, the mountain men of the rendezvous period started trapping much earlier in the fall and ended their trapping much later in the spring than is either legal nowadays, or rewarded by the prices modern fur buyers will pay for plews. During the rendezvous period trappers in the Northern and Central Rocky Mountains would have been hitting the streams hard by October, slow down during the midwinter freeze up, then really attack the beaver streams in earnest from March through May. Although they could trap in mid winter, most journals don't reflect much trapping activity then. One notable exception is John Work's journal for the winter his brigade wintered on the northern edge of the Snake River Plain in current-day Idaho. That winter, Work's large brigade continued trapping in earnest, but Work's journals record that the entire brigade's daily beaver catch during the winter was less than it would have been for a day for one good trapper during the spring season. In the same part of the world in our time, the high-country beaver won't start to really get prime by modern standards until sometime in November, and then freeze up soon follows at high elevations. The season, primeness, and freeze-up lag as one follows the mountain streams down to the lower big valleys thus influencing the trapping season. As per common pelts on the Canadian border area in the mid 1850s, again dates make a big difference, as does what one defines as a pelt. Technically, pelts come from furbearers and other mammals have hides. The Hudson Bay Company had markets at times for hides of black bears, grizzly bears, Rocky Mountain goats, and most notably bison hides. By the 1850s the bison hide business was just getting started. I don't have specific information on which fur pelts were most common circa 1850, but I do know that Hudson Bay Company records pretty consistently show a large muskrat harvest -- larger in numbers of pelts than other furs. Compared to today, however, the harvests of wolverine, marten, fisher, and Canada lynx were large. These carnivores are all dependent on the kind of forested wilderness that is rapidly disappearing in North American. Coyotes, red fox, raccoons, and bobcats, carnivores that are "habitat generalists, now occupy much of the now more fragmented disturbed ecosystems. Of all the furs commonly harvested in the mid-1850s, the only ones still in abundance are beaver and muskrat. March and April are the best months to trap those species. Of the species currently expanding in the West, red fox and raccoon are probably the most common, and November and December are the best months to trap those species. You might enjoy reading, "Canadian Wilds," by Martin Hunter, published by the Harding Company. It gives good insight into the Canadian fur trade following the crash of beaver prices, and the kind of fur trade that sustained the HBC until late in this century. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 22 Jan 1998 14:40:07 -0700 If I understand correctly, Black Harris was an Iroquois -- making that name a white-man's nickname for an Indian, rather than an Indian nickname for a white man. However, "Black" could have been his actual anglo name rather than just a nickname nickname. I'm told by a grad student currently researching this subject that Black is common Iroquois name used during the fur trade period. -----Original Message----- >Lest we forget 'Black' Harris > > Dick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 23 Jan 1998 00:28:16 EST First I've heard`of Moses "Black" Harris being an Iroquois. I'm interested in further details. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 22 Jan 1998 22:03:32 -0800 (PST) Ted, I got a book when I was in Tennessee that might have the information you are looking for. It's called "The Log House in East Tennessee" by John Morgan. It was published by the University of Tennessee Press in Knoxville in 1990. The # is ISBN 0-87049-653-0. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 04:17 AM 1/18/98 EST, you wrote: >Hello, > >This is the third time I've tried to submit this...perhaps this doesn't >meet any historical requirements of this e-mail group but I do believe it >does. I, more than, appreciated all the e-mails about navigation and >damascus knives! Now on my next subject. > >It's about historically correct log homes. I'm interested in a >particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log >homes to be extact. They were two log homes or possibly three connected >by a roof with spaces in between to create breezeways so that you would >be able to cool off easier. Had huge wrap-around porches along with the >breezeways. I would like sources to where to get info on those and to >see if there's anybody building those modern dog-trot homes or those who >get old homes and restore them etc. Also would like basic info on when >dog-trot homes were first created etc. I also am interested in the >Louisiana swamp homes built with cypress logs...heard that they are still >built. You can see an excellent example of one in the movie "Old Man >River". They also show my breed of dog (Louisiana Leopard Catahoula!) >Does anyone know anything about both styles of houses?? I really would >like to know. Also any www pages that are related to those as well. >Thank you for any help that you are able to provide. > >Ted > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 09:09:38 -0500 Ted, Tell me more about the movie "Old Man River". I'm real interested in catahoulas and would like to see how they are used in the movie. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: '98 EPR Web site Date: 23 Jan 1998 08:35:35 -0600 (CST) What's an EPR. Let me guess . . . Eastern Primitive Rendezvous?? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 08:37:56 -0600 (CST) >Ted, > >Tell me more about the movie "Old Man River". I'm real interested in >catahoulas and would like to see how they are used in the movie. > What's a catahoula? Back in the early days of this century there was a baseball team called the Catahoula Dirt Movers. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 08:40:11 -0600 (CST) Sorry, I must have missed your first posts. Yesterday, I replied to a query (maybe it was yours) about dogtrot log structures. See my reply from yesterday. Cheers, HBC >> >>This is the third time I've tried to submit this...perhaps this doesn't >>meet any historical requirements of this e-mail group but I do believe it >>does. I, more than, appreciated all the e-mails about navigation and >>damascus knives! Now on my next subject. >> >>It's about historically correct log homes. I'm interested in a >>particular style that's supposedly prevalent in the South. Dog-trot log >>homes to be extact. They were two log homes or possibly three connected >>by a roof with spaces in between to create breezeways so that you would >>be able to cool off easier. Had huge wrap-around porches along with the >>breezeways. I would like sources to where to get info on those and to >>see if there's anybody building those modern dog-trot homes or those who >>get old homes and restore them etc. Also would like basic info on when >>dog-trot homes were first created etc. I also am interested in the >>Louisiana swamp homes built with cypress logs...heard that they are still >>built. You can see an excellent example of one in the movie "Old Man >>River". They also show my breed of dog (Louisiana Leopard Catahoula!) >>Does anyone know anything about both styles of houses?? I really would >>like to know. Also any www pages that are related to those as well. >>Thank you for any help that you are able to provide. >> >>Ted >> >> ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ******** "Eat with gusto and enthusiasm" ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 10:06:59 -0500 Henry, A Catahoula is one of the original American bred hunting dogs. They are said to be a cross of the Spanish war dogs (mastiff and greyhound) with the red wolf. After Spanish explorers were defeated in battle by the local (Louisiana) Indians, some of the war dogs were captured and cross bred. The result is the Catahoula Leopard Cur. They are said to be one of the finest hunting and just all around dogs you can get and very authentic to our chosen time periods. There are several breeders of these in Texas, so you can probably see one locally. You can also get to several websites about them by just doing a search thru your favorite engine. Just type in catahoula curs and step back! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Spencer <omega_strings@eee.org> Subject: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 23 Jan 1998 08:15:55 -0800 Hello the camp? (wouldn't Bridger have loved to have EMail) I have been following this list for about a month. My real interest is in primative fire making. Since matches were not invented until around 1830 and were not widely available until after 1850, I'm sure that many of you pay as much attention to period details in fire making as you do to the other areas I have read of on this list. My question is what is known in your circles about primative fire making, particularly friction fire making? What materials are best for the fire board, drill rod, etc? What material did the Mt. Men use to make char cloth? I would also ask for those who practice friction fire making (those who can produce FLAMES not just smoke)to share their secrets. I look forward to hearing what insight you, as a group, can give me. Richard Spencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel <travel@turbonet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: FCC Date: 23 Jan 1998 10:12:11 > I just got off the phone with the FCC in Washington. The information >about the phone companies wanting to charge a per minute rate for >internet users is a fact. > The lady I spoke with ,at the FCC, said that "We need to call our >Congressmen to make our feelings known on this subject". She said "We" I >guess she is on-line also. > The last date for reply to the FCC is 13 February 1998. Do not just >contact one of the above contact all. This is one more hit at our "Right >to communicate." > Also contact your ISP and make sure they know about this. I called >mine and talked to a young guy that is supposed to know what is going >on. His response? "The phone companies won't do it." To me that >statement "Always" mean they will do it. You may want to call your phone >company and tell them you are not going to allow them to do this. > You can call the FCC yourselves at:1-888-callfcc, you can also go to >the FCC Website at:WWW.FCC.Gov. Expect to be waiting awhile on the >phone, they are getting many calls on this. > This is not a flint/cap or in-line issue. Everyone of the 300+ on the >list are computer/phone line users. So there is "NO" excuss for not >making a few phone calls or even writing a letter. It is easier to stop >a law before the fact than having it struck down after. Become active >folks not re-active after the fact. > > >This is to inform you of a very important matter currently under >>review by the FCC. >>Your local telephone company has filed a proposal with the FCC >>to impose per minute charges for your internet service. They >>contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the >>telephone network. It is my belief that internet usage will diminish >>if users were required to pay additional per minute charges. >>The FCC has created an email box for your comments, responses >>must be received by February 13, 1998. Send your comments to >> isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think. Every phone company >>is in on this one, and they are trying to sneak it in just under the >>wire for litigation. Let everyone you know here this one. Get the >>e-mail address to everyone you can think of. >> >>isp@fcc.gov<-------FCC e-mail >-- > >Matt Mitchell Carlson Wagonlit Travel / Travel Agents International 1420 South Blaine St. Ste. 5 Moscow, ID. 83843 208-882-7667 208-882-2870 fax http://www1.turbonet.com/tai http://www.enquest.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KarmannMan <KarmannMan@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FCC Date: 23 Jan 1998 13:15:09 EST I went to the fcc page, and found information very contrary to what was said in the last posting. Of course I don't want anything to happen to make my internet bill to go up, but I really don't think that anything like that is going to happen soon. I encourage all members of this list to check out this web site. . . http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Factsheets/ispfact.html It should be very informative. If anybody can prove me wrong I would really apriciate it, because like I stated earlier I don't really want to pay more for this service than I have to. Thanks Matthew Ellis "Hasty Retreat" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" <louis.l.sickler@lmco.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive fire making Date: 23 Jan 1998 11:34:22 -0700 This is in response to a question by Richard Spencer about primitive fire making. I have been successful in creating FIRE (not just smoke) using the following implements: cottonwood fire board cottonwood drill cedar bow (or any other wood, since it doesn't enter into the equation) with homemade rawhide lace for string soapstone bearing block Drill preparation: get a one foot or so length of dry cottonwood limb, as straight as possible. Whittle the fireboard end to a sharper point than the bearing block end. Also with your knife, carve flat spots in the drill parallel with the length of it, This will allow the rawhide lace to GRAB better. It's hard to believe, but the action of the lace will actually smooth the drill out so much that it will begin to slip. These flat spots will have to be recarved periodically. Fireboard preparation: Put a small dent in the fireboard with a knife where the center of the drill would be. Then take the drill, put it in this dent and rotate it with the bow to burn a hole for the drill to move in when you are ready to 'make fire'. This mates the drill and fire board, too. Then cut or carve a triangular notch on the edge of the fire board in to the center of the hole made above. This will allow the red hot coals to drop down onto my tinder. Bow preparation: Get a slightly curved piece of wood (I like cedar) and tie the lace firmly to each end. Making FIRE: Gather up a good handful of tinder (tow mixed with cedar bark, cedar bark alone, good dry grass, etc.). When collecting grass for tinder, I always try it with a lighter / match first to see if it will catch easy. If not, I look elsewhere. Some grasses just don't seem to want to burn at all! If it does, I collect a good bag full for future use. Place the tinder under the notch and secure the fire board with your right foot. Kneel down on your left knee and get good & comfortable, you may be here for a while at first. Wrap the rawhide lace around the drill once so that the drill is on the outside of the loop made by the bow and lace, instead of the inside. This a little hard to explain but try it and you'll see the difference. Now you can let go of the bow and place the drill into the hole in the fire board and pin the drill down at the top with the bearing block of your choice. Now grab the bow and start sawing back & forth, rotating the drill slowly at first to get the hang of it. If you see smoke, start sawing faster and faster and apply more pressure on the bearing block until there is a lot of black wood residue (hopefully with some red glowing embers) built up in the notch and on your tinder. It takes some practice to know when to stop, but check it once in a while and you'll start to recognize various stages of hot ember creation. When you think you have enough (or any) embers lying in your tinder, carefully remove the fireboard from on top of the tinder, pick it up and lightly blow on the coals. If they are there in sufficient quantity, you can get the tinder to catch fire easily. Some references say to use a soft (pine) fireboard and a hard (oak) drill. But i have never even come close to fire with this combo. Too much resin in the pine and the oak drill right through even getting it very hot. The cottonwood on cottonwood really works well and has always been in large supply here in Colorado, especially along the Platte. I hope this helps, I'd be glad to clarify any points I haven't made clear enough. PRACTICE and you'll get fire !!! A good reference for review is John McPherson's Primitive Living Skills book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe <wmi@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FCC Date: 23 Jan 1998 12:51:22 -0700 It appears the first message in the subject chain was somewhat inaccurate. However, The current public notice, DA 98-2, issued on January 5, 1998, and requesting public comment may be need of concern. The comments filed with the FCC will be used by the Commission to help define several types of services and would thereby set jurisdiction. Per minute charges may well become a state jurisdictional issue with rates set by the state PUC or legislature. The folowing information was coppied from the FCC web site: THE FCC, INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS, AND ACCESS CHARGES This fact sheet offers informal guidance on an issue that has generated a great deal of public interest. For more specific details about the proceedings currently before the Commission, please visit our web site (http://www.fcc.gov/). In December 1996, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requested public comment on issues relating to the charges that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and similar companies pay to local telephone companies. On May 7, 1997, the FCC decided to leave the existing rate structure in place. In other words, the FCC decided not to allow local telephone companies to impose per-minute access charged on ISPs. Please Note: There is no open comment period in this proceeding. If you have recently seen a message on the Internet stating that in response to a request from local telephone companies, the FCC is requesting comments to <isp@fcc.gov> by February 1998, be aware that this information is inaccurate. The FCC issued an unrelated public notice, DA 98-2, on January 5, 1998 in connection with a report to Congress on universal service. Pursuant to the FCC's 1998 appropriations legislation, the Commission must submit a report by April 10, 1998 on several issues including the legal status of Internet services under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Comments in response to the public notice are due January 20, 1998, and reply comments are due February 2, 1998. Informal comments may be sent by email to <usreport@fcc.gov>. Carlson Wagonlit Travel wrote: > > I just got off the phone with the FCC in Washington. The information > >about the phone companies wanting to charge a per minute rate for > >internet users is a fact. > snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >Matt Mitchell > > Carlson Wagonlit Travel / Travel Agents International > 1420 South Blaine St. Ste. 5 > Moscow, ID. 83843 > 208-882-7667 > 208-882-2870 fax > http://www1.turbonet.com/tai > http://www.enquest.com -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Ulevich <nulevich@sni.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 23 Jan 1998 09:43:59 -0800 At 08:15 AM 1/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hello the camp? >(wouldn't Bridger have loved to have EMail) > > I have been following this list for about a month. My real interest is >in primative fire making... >Richard Spencer "Primative Fire and Cordage", an illustrated pamphlet by John McPherson, covers in detail native American methods for making fire by means of friction (bow/drill). Write to him at P.O. Box 96, Randolph, KS 66554. "Making Sure-Fire Tinder", an illustrated pamphlet by David S. Ripplinger, discusses flint/steel/charcloth methods and materials, including instructions for making charcloth. Write to Track of the Wolf, Inc., Box Y, Osseo, MN 55369. While the flint/fire steel method of making fire must have been as common in the fur trade period as plastic butane lighters are today, I'm puzzled by the fact that I've seen relatively few fire steels in museums or elsewhere. The fifteen or so in my collection are all period reproductions, save two of foreign (Tibetan) origin. I understand linen was the material of choice for charcloth during the fur trade period. I'd like to read a period account of procedures for making charcloth (as opposed to more recent accounts). If anyone knows of such, please come ahead with citations. Best, Neal Ulevich ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 23 Jan 1998 15:32:42 -0500 Neal, I can't agree that linen was the most common thing used as char. I don't see these guys buying and carrying a bunch of material around for char. I use punkwood or touchwood which is easily picked up in the woods as I ramble about. Punkwood is wood that is rotted and dried to the point of being almost of styrofoam consistancy. Touchwood is the gray horseshoe shaped fungus found on the side of trees. You can char these as you would cloth or simply place in the fire until charred to the right stage where it will hold a spark. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel <travel@turbonet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: FCC Date: 23 Jan 1998 14:09:15 I stand corrected and humbled. There is nothing at this time before the FCC. Again I called the FCC and got a person that knew what was going on. There is "no attempt"at this time by the phone companies to get a per-minute rate. That event was last years news and was not approved by the FCC. I will post this message back to the list as I was one of those that put out this incorrect information. My appologies to you and to the list . Open Mouth Insert Keyboard. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Ulevich <nulevich@sni.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 23 Jan 1998 17:35:54 -0700 Yes you're right on punk and touchwood as field expedients. I stand corrected. Linen and flax fiber from rags, worn out clothing, were more common tinder in the settlements. best, NU At 03:32 PM 1/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >Neal, > >I can't agree that linen was the most common thing used as char. I >don't see these guys buying and carrying a bunch of material around >for char. I use punkwood or touchwood which is easily picked up in >the woods as I ramble about. Punkwood is wood that is rotted and >dried to the point of being almost of styrofoam consistancy. >Touchwood is the gray horseshoe shaped fungus found on the side of >trees. You can char these as you would cloth or simply place in the >fire until charred to the right stage where it will hold a spark. > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen >Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick >Fairplay, MD >http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive fire making Date: 23 Jan 1998 20:35:31 EST Dear Richard (and all other interested parties) , Louis provided a perfect description of the process to make fire using a "bow drill". A similar situation can be achieved with- out the use of rawhide lace or the necessity of making cordage to "string the bow". A similar device, the hand drill, is done using a softer drill tip (like Yucca). Cattail or willow will also work. This method requires a lot more practice, and is easiest if two people are available, one to spin the drill and the other to apply pressure down from the top of the drill. In short, to making fire this way, you assume a comfortable position with the fireboard blocked between your feet, and use a longer drill (about 30"). Keeping the drill perpendicular, your hands must come down straight, ,spinning the drill back and forth as your hands drop from the top to about 6" above the board. Upon reaching the lowest point, lift your hands ONE AT A TIME, so you can keep constant downward pressure on the drill, and prevent air from reaching and cooling your coal. As John McPherson says "this procedure WILL wear you out" and ..."do a lot of practicing before you even think ' fire '." The referrence Louis was speaking of is: Naked Into The Wilderness, Primitive Wilderness Living & Survival Skills by John & Geri McPherson. It is published by Prairie Wolf, POB 96, Randolph, Kansas 66554. This book has many primitive skills laid out in a concise, easy to understand format. Hope this helps, PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 21:33:21 EST On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:37:56 -0600 (CST) mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) writes: >>Ted, >> >>Tell me more about the movie "Old Man River". I'm real interested in >>catahoulas and would like to see how they are used in the movie. Ok basically all it showed were two or three dogs on the boat when it's raining.....just a five second shot but since catahoulas are/or were common around the South....just like blackmouth curs are. >What's a catahoula? Back in the early days of this century there was >a >baseball team called the Catahoula Dirt Movers. > >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Catahoula comes from the American Indian origin but I don't know the meaning and also catahoulas supposedly orgininated in the Catahoula Parish area of Louisiana. But one distinction....there are two breeds with nearly the same name but somewhat different...Leopard curs....and the breed Louisiana Leopard Catahoula (the only official state dog that I know of....Louisiana). They look different as Leopard curs don't have the "haunting" eyes that I will describe in my next post shortly. Be forewarned that I love catahoulas to the point I will talk to anyone about them and me being deaf doesn't infere! I intend to get a male sometime when I move to a house. Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log homes and such Date: 23 Jan 1998 21:33:21 EST On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:06:59 -0500 "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> writes: >Henry, > >A Catahoula is one of the original American bred hunting dogs. They >are said to be a cross of the Spanish war dogs (mastiff and >greyhound) with the red wolf. After Spanish explorers were defeated >in battle by the local (Louisiana) Indians, some of the war dogs were >captured and cross bred. The result is the Catahoula Leopard Cur. >They are said to be one of the finest hunting and just all around >dogs you can get and very authentic to our chosen time periods. >There are several breeders of these in Texas, so you can probably >see one locally. You can also get to several websites about them by >just doing a search thru your favorite engine. Just type in catahoula >curs and step back! > > >Your most humble servant, >Scott Allen Ok...FYI Jim Bowie was said to own two of 'em. Said they were tough as shoe leather :) Now the following info I'm about to give you is taken from the N.A.L.C. (National Association of Louisiana Catahoulas) flier that I received when getting Sarah Blue's papers. As you walk up to the fence, you are instantly greeted by some very strange looking dogs. In one yard there is a large, dark spotted dog with dark eyes; or in another yard, it could be a light, blue-grey Leopard with white trim, but you only notice his coloring after you take your eyes off the haunting white eyes of the animal which has been staring straight at you ever since you first approached. The closer you come, the higher the hair stands up along the dog's back, reminding you of a razor-back hog. The dogs may run up to the fence, bark, show their teeth and then run to their house and back and forth to the fence.....not a very warm welcome at any rate! Then the dog's master comes out to greet you and makes the dog back off, or ties him to a tree. Now it's safe for you to enter the yard. You have just been introduced to the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard...to some a great stockdog and to others, and all time great family protector and watchdog. Later when you are going home, you are amazed to see that same dog playing with a child. The children run and play, pull his ears and pat his head, and you wonder if the child is about to lose his arm...but you are only seeing another side of the very versatile Catahoula, a family dog and a lover of little ones (small side note my dog goes nuts over kids more than on adults). This dog will tolerate anything from the children for whom he has formed an affection. Watching the dog, you see him walk over to a place and all at once just "flop" down like a junkyard dog; get up and prance around with his tail held high like a show dog; or approach with his tail between his legs like a whipped pup. These are all characteristics of the breed. Many a Catahoula owner has gone hunting squirrel or hogs in the morning, penned a few cows that afternoon and had a good coon hunt that night....all with the same pair of dogs. The COON HUNTER would love to see a Catahoula fight an ole' coon in a creek. Down here, they stopped putting Catahoulas in the "Coon on a Log" trails because it just wasn't fair for the coon to lose all the time. For the DEER HUNTER, you can hunt and go home with your dog...all in the same day. Around here (Louisiana) some hunters use Walkers (hound breed) and they run deer for a day and spend the next 3 days looking for their dogs. The Catahoulas are short-range dogs. They are the best silent trailers and bay dogs on earth. Some trail on the ground, but most of the wind. (side note...in some states (Texas in particular) you aren't allowed to hunt deer with dogs unless the deer has been wounded) HOG HUNTERS need to know that the Catahoulas are also called "coward" dogs because of the way they hunt and/or work hogs. They bark, snap and run. This is a born instinct, telling the dog that to aggrevate the hogs will make them follow, and this way he can get them to follow him for miles to a pen; or a short way to something that he can make a hog back up against...baying the hogs until his master comes. What would some city folks think of our great dog if they saw the Catahoula bark at a hog and turn tail and run...with the hog right on his heels??? Yep, COWARD. But we know that the Catahoula is about as dumb as a sly fox. For the COW MAN the Catahoula uses the same instinct in herding cattle. If the cow man goes in and tries to move the cows before he has let his Catahoulas work, bunch, circle, and calm the herd, he is wasting his time and making it hard on his dogs, because cows will break and run, causing the dogs to leave the herd to catch the stray. So, a word to the wise is "sit back and let your Catahoulas do what comes naturally...and that is, tease, circle and bay until the cows calm down and bunch up, then the master can move in and slowly start the herd moving. The Catahoulas will keep them bunched together until they are penned. Then, put your Catahoulas in the back of your truck and park it any place, because as the old cowboys used to say...and still say,,,,"Your truck will be intact with Ole Lep in the back." (I deleted some more stuff that was related to above stuff (training in particular) but will end with following personal note) Catahoulas have the best eyesight of any dog breed I've seen...they even beat Border Collies. They'll notice something you wouldn't notice or any other dog wouldn't notice but they do like for example you are sitting in your living room and he's playing (they are forever playing till the day they die) with something that turns out to be a tiny piece of string! Their eye color can be glass(pale blue so pale it's white), blue, yellow, green, amber, and brown. Can be cracked (two eye colors mixed up in one eye) or mixed eye colors in each eye. Their body coloring is varied from (most common) blue w/black spots or tan/w red or rust spots (mine) to any other color...can be solid...can be white but not recommended as they tend to be deaf and blind resulting in less good life. Picture a very muscular Dalamation with above coloring and you've got the Catahoula. Very tough! But a good dog...tends to be one person dog or family dog and very protective but not to the point they scare people off like a Rottweiler or some such. Word to the wise.....don't try to hit them if you lose your temper because they have memories like elephants and won't work for you ever again or if they got hurt in a situation (like my dog hates street grates or potholes because she got hurt in one as a pup) they will try to avoid the situation. They will TRY your patience till they get to around 6 months of age or so. On the plus side they love to play. But they take quite a while to get toilet trained so be very patient during the process! Now back to last two paragraphs of the article. So now you can see why the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard has lasted so long, because if you can use a dog in so many useful ways and train him to your own needs, you will make sure that you always have one around. (there are some families that have had them for over 100 years!) That same "haunting" dog you met when you arrived, can go home with you and become "your" dog, all of the above and more, if you have the time to work with him, a place to let him run and the patience to make him YOURS. N.A.L.C., Inc. P.O. Box 1041 Denham Springs, LA 70727 504-665-6082 If you are in Texas give me an e-mail call and I know some people who have pups ready to go and some breeders in the Texas area. Can't wait to train my pup for hog hunting and cow herding :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: earlalan@srv.net (Allen Hall) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive fire making Date: 23 Jan 1998 21:57:18 -0700 (MST) >This is also in response to a question by Richard Spencer about primitive >fire making. > I've had good luck with a cottonwood fire board, and a willow spindle. I use a piece of hardwood for the socket, and a willow bow with deer rawhide. Works good for me, made fire everytime I tried. A friend of mine, Mike Powell, says that sage makes a great spindle if you find the right sized piece. I'm happy so far with the willow and cottonwood combo. There's plenty of both here in Fort Hall country. Good luck, let us know how it turns out for you. Allen Hall ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry landis <"landis1@gte.net"@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: mtman-list:tva long arms Date: 23 Jan 1998 22:21:24 -0800 I am considering a tennesse valley arms front loader. how do they rate?also does anyone have some suggestions for a full stock hunting rifle? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 24 Jan 1998 07:57:01 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD289D.A7384060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just couldn't resist a comment: Well Mr. Richard 1st thing Brother Jim B couldn't read and write. But he could recite all of Shakespeare's sonnets some one spent the winter with him and read them to him over and over and Jim was able to recite them quite well. He would turn them around and use them a stories which he was noted for also. I'm some one else can Broaden the story but I am to lazy to look up the reference. My good Brother John Kramer can light a candle with char cloth, flint and steel I'll let John tell us how. I have a video of John made in 86 lighting a candle. I learn real well and my best time is 8 seconds the worst was a half a can of char and 5 minutes. How embarrassing but I got over it. I have entertain many folks at doin's. A bow and drill is iffy at best I have seen smart asses take hours to get a fire going. I can do it but I am not an expert. A good friend Ivan Sherk made a statement once a party meeting about how many people could start a fire with a bow and drill. every one said yea yea I did that in boy scouts and no problem so Ivan the kinda of guy he is brought several sets the next time there was a meeting and told every one they couldn't go home until everyone started a fire. Well after several hours well after Midnight they were allowed to go home. I wouldn't even try to write out how to start a fire with a flint and steel. But look up a black powder shoot or reenactment and I am sure some one will show you. I am sure that the 1800 time frame they used linen for char or other materials that they had. I don't think cotton but modern man uses cotton (100%) I use linen myself I like the way it works I use unbleached. I like the courcenest. I am sure some one else will write on the subject. Later Jon Towns --------- : From: Richard Spencer <omega_strings@eee.org> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making : Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 8:15 AM : : Hello the camp? : (wouldn't Bridger have loved to have Email) : : I have been following this list for about a month. My real interest is : in primitive fire making. Since matches were not invented until around : 1830 and were not widely available until after 1850, I'm sure that many : of you pay as much attention to period details in fire making as you do : to the other areas I have read of on this list. : My question is what is known in your circles about primitive fire : making, particularly friction fire making? What materials are best for : the fire board, drill rod, etc? What material did the Mt. Men use to : make char cloth? I would also ask for those who practice friction fire : making (those who can produce FLAMES not just smoke)to share their : secrets. : I look forward to hearing what insight you, as a group, can give me. : : Richard Spencer ------=_NextPart_000_01BD289D.A7384060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> I just couldn't resist a comment: = Well Mr. Richard 1st thing Brother Jim B couldn't read and = write. But he could recite all of Shakespeare's sonnets some one = spent the winter with him and read them to him over and over and Jim was = able to recite them quite well. He would turn them around and use = them a stories which he was noted for also. I'm some one else can = Broaden the story but I am to lazy to look up the reference. = My good Brother John Kramer can light a candle with char = cloth, flint and steel I'll let John tell us how. I have a video = of John made in 86 lighting a candle. I learn real well and my = best time is 8 seconds the worst was a half a can of char and 5 = minutes. How embarrassing but I got over it. I have = entertain many folks at doin's. A bow and drill is iffy at = best I have seen smart asses take hours to get a fire going. I can = do it but I am not an expert. A good friend Ivan Sherk made a = statement once a party meeting about how many people could start a fire = with a bow and drill. every one said yea yea I did that in boy = scouts and no problem so Ivan the kinda of guy he is brought several = sets the next time there was a meeting and told every one they couldn't = go home until everyone started a fire. Well after several hours = well after Midnight they were allowed to go home. I = wouldn't even try to write out how to start a fire with a flint and = steel. But look up a black powder shoot or reenactment and I = am sure some one will show you. I am sure that the 1800 = time frame they used linen for char or other materials that they had. = I don't think cotton but modern man uses cotton (100%) I use = linen myself I like the way it works I use unbleached. I like the = courcenest. I am sure some one else will write on the subject. = Later Jon Towns = --------- : From: Richard Spencer <omega_strings@eee.org> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making : = (wouldn't Bridger have loved to have Email) : : I have been = following this list for about a month. My real interest is : in = primitive fire making. Since matches were not invented until around : = 1830 and were not widely available until after 1850, I'm sure that = many : of you pay as much attention to period details in fire making = as you do : to the other areas I have read of on this list. : = My question is what is known in your circles about primitive = fire : making, particularly friction fire making? What materials are = best for : the fire board, drill rod, etc? What material did the Mt. = Men use to : make char cloth? I would also ask for those who practice = friction fire : making (those who can produce FLAMES not just = smoke)to share their : secrets. : I look forward to hearing = what insight you, as a group, can give me. : : Richard = Spencer </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD289D.A7384060-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 24 Jan 1998 08:09:42 -0800 Richard Spencer wrote: > My real interest is > in primative fire making. Northwestern Video Priductions has two videos you might be interested in. One is called Primitive Life Skills and it has a section on friction fire and the other is How to Make Fire by Friction. This one features Jim Riggs and he does a hand drill and a bow drill fire. This is a good one that gets up close so you can really see what's going on. If you are interested the snail mail address is P. O. Box 251, Roseburg, OR 97470. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtman-list:tva long arms Date: 24 Jan 1998 16:17:40 EST Wanted to let everyone know that I have both a 'poor boy' .54 flint long rifle, and a matching pistol from Tennessee Valley Manufacturing (Jack Garner), and they are both terrific weapons. First time out with the rifle I won 1st place at the Holcomb Valley (CA) RDV against 151 shooters, and the Pistol is, if you'll excuse the expression, also 'nuts on'. Their delivery may be a little slow, due to hand production, the quality of furniture and finish is A1, and you can't beat the Southern hospitality that comes with every phone call. If anybody wants any further info, please feel free to contact me direct. PJ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtman-list:tva long arms Date: 24 Jan 1998 16:06:26 -0500 -----Original Message----- >I am considering a tennesse valley arms front loader. how do they >rate?also does anyone have some suggestions for a full stock hunting >rifle? TVA is all right....a tad high priced, IMHO. You might want to take a look at Deer Creeks Wilderness Rifle Works line...all made in Waldron, IN. They have a So. Mtn. Rifle I've very fond of....flinter in .50, and also the Cumberland, a PA "poorboy." I have the later in .36 percussion. A good dealer for them is: Bob G. at: bob@plan-et.com. He can send you a color brochure, etc. Regards, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 25 Jan 1998 18:18:48 -0700 I don't have the information to document it, but hope this grad student's research is published this year and it may include something about Black Harris. I met him at the Sept. fur trade symposium in Pinedale, but can't remember his name. He's one of Fred Gowans' grad student's, however, and we should be able to ask Gowans for an update on the research. I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were the trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters." David Thompson's journal in particular records the independence of the Iroqois hunters compared to the "engagee" voyageurs. Small groups of Iroquois hunters wandered the Rocky Mountains living like free trappers from at least as early as David Thompson's crossing of the Rockies. Most of these Iroquois were descended from the part of the tribe that converted to Christianity when the French first moved inland along the St. Lawrence and had been living and working along side the Europeans from that time. It is difficult to identify which of the French-surnamed (and often Scottish surnamed) trappers were Iroquois or Metis. The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob Miller depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial hair. Miller also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named trappers. -----Original Message----- >First I've heard`of Moses "Black" Harris being an Iroquois. I'm interested in >further details. > >Todd Glover > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtman-list:tva long arms Date: 25 Jan 1998 13:27:11 -0800 terry landis wrote: > > I am considering a tennesse valley arms front loader. how do they > rate?also does anyone have some suggestions for a full stock hunting > rifle? Greetings Terry, Just a little comment on buying a reproduction firearm mailorder. Find someone at a shop or event that has something produced from the company your considering and examin it closely. I purchased a Huddelson Mountain Rifle from Naragansett Arms and was not to pleased with the quality or attention to detail on the rifel that I recived. Post me privately if you want the details. Buyer be aware. Best regards from another Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Date: 26 Jan 1998 11:38:36 -0500 Hello the list! Well, I finally picked up my new smoothbore from layaway. Bought prelubed cushion wads and over powder/over shot cards and .600 ball to go with it. If you recall, I already had #5 chilled and some #00 thru # mixed shot given to me by a friend. I had previously report that the gun was pretty plain, but the more I looked at it the better the walnut stock looked. I'm a curly maple fan, but the grain in this walnut really looked good! Anyway, on to the shooting report. Temp = 38 degrees F and dropping fast! Condition = very damp at first and heavy snow towards the end/light wind. Shot at 30" circle, off hand at 15 yards to start. First load: 60 gr 3f Goex/ equivalent of 70 gr of #5 shot. Blue & Gray over the powder (thick card), Blue & Gray .5" prelubed cushion wad (smelled like a used dip of Skoal), and a thin Blue & Gray over shot card. Small delay in ignition. Extremely tight group (turkeys and squirrels look out!). Fixed flint and charged same load a few more times with faster ignition and similar results. All shots hitting low. Moved to 25 yards with same load and had only a couple of pellets out of circle with no holes in pattern. Moved shot charge down to equivalent of 60 gr. and pattern spread some, but still good with no holes. Tried 70gr equiv. of mixed shot minus the #00 and all I can say is WOW! Too bad it isn't legal for turkeys! Very big hole in paper. Now on to ball. Got everything ready, dumped in a 60gr load of 3f and put on the spit patch. Went to put in a ball and it's too big! Even without a patch it was way too big. I'm thinking someone wasn't too close on their measurements. Well, it's thirty miles back to the ML shop, so I just call and see if they can talk to the maker and find out what size ball he recommends. Meanwhile I get a .490 out of my rifle bag and double patch it. Don't know where that one went! Will get the right sized ball and sight it in before doing anymore shooting. In the meantime I made a rivercane shot charger and a separate cane powder measure, made a small bag to hold tow and a flint bag while watching the Superbowl. I'm still deciding what style shooting bag and shot bag to make. Waiting on a new horn from a buddy of mine in the F&I style. Can anyone tell me what the oz. measure/volume of the 70 gr. equivalent of shot is? Ain't too good at cipherin' ya know! Had fun. I think I'll be satisfied with this gun. Can't wait to get her sighted in and chase some squirrels, bunnies and some springtime turkeys. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 1998 10:04:23 -0700 (MST) > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were the > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters." I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of the men who defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in Kittson's Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. Ashley wrote: "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, who had recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois names (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to determine. > > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob Miller > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial hair. Miller > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named trappers. > There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed some light. -Dean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 1998 19:00:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wasn't there only 19 deserters? ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM : : > I believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that a lot of those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the : > Northwest Company employed Iroquois as "hunters." : : : I assume you mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% : Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are named in Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 percent. : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the country, together with twenty-nine, who had : recently withdrawn from the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, : were assembled in two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place appointed by me as a general rendezvous" : : Many men are named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to : determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be difficult to determine. : : : > : > The following offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose : > roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse facial hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's : > origens among the Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois : > name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named trappers. : > : : There's a biography of Harris in Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look it up, but I bet that will shed some light. : : -Dean ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Wasn't there only 19 = deserters? ---------- : From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 = rendezvous : Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:04 AM : : > I = believe they have documented that almost half the trappers at the = 1824 : > rendezvous were Iroquois. Somebody speculated that = a lot of those were the : > trappers who defected from Peter Skene = Ogden's Brigade. Long before then the : > Northwest Company = employed Iroquois as "hunters." : : : I assume you = mean the 1825 rendezvous. I'm a little skeptical about 50% : = Iroquois, would be interested to see the research. The majority of = the : men who : defected from Ogden were indeed Iroquois (many are = named in Kittson's : Journal), but this accounts for less than 25 = percent. : Ashley wrote: : "On the 1st day of july, = all the men in my employ or with : whom I had any concern in the = country, together with twenty-nine, who had : recently withdrawn from = the Hudson Bay company, making in all 120 men, : were assembled in = two camps near each other about 20 miles distant : from the place = appointed by me as a general rendezvous" : : Many men are = named in Ashley's accounts. One could do some geneology to : = determine which were Iroquois, but they don't have obvious Iroquois = names : (except for the Ogden bunch). I think it would be = difficult to determine. : : : > : > The following = offer some evidence that Black Harris may have been one whose : > = roots went back to Iroquois along the St. Lawerence: Alfred Jacob = Miller : > depicted him as very dark complected and with sparse = facial hair. Miller : > also recorded him wearing a = hunting-hood hat of the type that has it's : > origens among the = Indian's of the Northeast. Black was a common Iroquois : > = name. He is closely associated with many of the French-named = trappers. : > : : There's a biography of Harris in = Hafen's Mountain Men series: : Harris, Moses "Black", by = Jerome Peltier, vol IV pg. 103-117 : I haven't had a chance to look = it up, but I bet that will shed some light. : : -Dean </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2A8C.ABE5E400-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 26 Jan 1998 21:50:29 -0500 -----Original Message----- >I don't have the information to document it, but hope this grad student's >research is published this year and it may include something about Black >Harris. I met him at the Sept. fur trade symposium in Pinedale, but can't >remember his name. He's one of Fred Gowans' grad student's, however, and we >should be able to ask Gowans for an update on the research. [snip] David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to know if you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. Thanks, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon"<lcardon@insurquote.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FCC Date: 23 Jan 1998 12:13:06 -0700 I know this is off topic, and I apologize in advance, but this is regarding the previous note that was sent and is intended to clear up any misinformation. Thanks for your patience -Lee Cardon THE FCC, INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS, AND ACCESS CHARGES This fact sheet offers informal guidance on an issue that has generated a great deal of public interest. For more specific details about the proceedings currently before the Commission, please visit our web site (http://www.fcc.gov/). In December 1996, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requested public comment on issues relating to the charges that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and similar companies pay to local telephone companies. On May 7, 1997, the FCC decided to leave the existing rate structure in place. In other words, the FCC decided not to allow local telephone companies to impose per-minute access charged on ISPs. Please Note: There is no open comment period in this proceeding. If you have recently seen a message on the Internet stating that in response to a request from local telephone companies, the FCC is requesting comments to <isp@fcc.gov> by February 1998, be aware that this information is inaccurate. The FCC issued an unrelated public notice, DA 98-2, on January 5, 1998 in connection with a report to Congress on universal service. Pursuant to the FCC's 1998 appropriations legislation, the Commission must submit a report by April 10, 1998 on several issues including the legal status of Internet services under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Comments in response to the public notice are due January 20, 1998, and reply comments are due February 2, 1998. Informal comments may be sent by email to <usreport@fcc.gov>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 26 Jan 1998 21:49:18 -0700 At 07:00 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Jon Towns wrote: >>>> <excerpt> <smaller>Wasn't there only 19 deserters? ---------- </smaller></excerpt> Well, good question. Gen Ashley himself said there were 29, so I won't argue with him. But could be he was referring to all the ex-HBC men, and not just those who deserted on the Weber that spring. HBC clerk William Kittson kept a detailed journal, as did Ogden. (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/kitjrl.html) Kittson names the following individuals as deserting between May 24 - 30, 1825. The edition of his journal I have stops on June 1; there could have been more desertions later in the season. The names with an asterik were probably Iroquois. Alexander Carson Charles Duford Martin Miaquin* Pierre Tevaiiitagon* Jaques Osteaceroko* Ignace Deohdiouwassere* Ignace Hatchiorauquasha (or Grey)* Laurent Karahouton* Baptise Sawenrego* Lazard Kayenquaretcha* Joseph Perreault Louis Kanota Montour Antoine Clement Annance Prudhomme Sansfacon* Theery Goddin J. Bte. Gervais Fras. Sasanare* Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 27 Jan 1998 00:14:57 EST > >David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to >know if >you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as >Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. > >Thanks, > >Fred > > Why not ask the Mohawks their selves? There's a musemum that could possibly help you...I went there when I was attending college in Rochester, NY. The director of the program is a descdant of the Anglo lady who decided to stay with the Senecas...Ms. Jamimeson...(sp?) He's a real well known artist who decided to drop out of the rat race in NYC in the art field after he felt that he was being pulled in opposite directions. He might or might not recall me...just see if he remembers a deaf guy who attended the Rochester Institute of Technology. Tell him I sent ya the address. I also have some Mohawk addresses that relate to some of them who decided to move back to their original birthplace Mohawk Valley. I'll find that address later but here's the Victor address. Ganondagon State Historical Site 1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd Victor, NY 14564 Real historic place as it was the last place that the Senecas lived before being driven else where but what's so ironic is that the Seneca reservations are nearby. They drifted back and got their lands back (some of it anyway) and in one case one reservation even had to call in the Army to kick out the original descdeants of the settlers who had moved in there illegally and never paid more than $1 a year on a lease that was quite old and not up to par to inflation by today's standards...if they refused to pay up the new lease prices then they had soldiers escort them off the premises. That reservation also has an excellent musemum that I never had the opportunity to visit due to it being far from Rochester but worth a visit in my opinion. The musemum (Victor) showcases modern and traditional dances, traditional veg growing methods (in my opinion superior to the traditional farming method of planting in rows) and many more historical things. I'll try to find out the info about the Mohawk Valley...they do have web site though. Check it out in the Native American sections. Let me know what happens. Ted Hart _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Date: 27 Jan 1998 08:09:07 EST Congratulations, Scott! Your new smooth bore sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you and yours get years of fun out of it. With your bag and all the stuff your making, let me hit you up for a suggestion... Do you know a good, trustworthy place to get leather. I have a Tandy leather near me, but things get pricey fast. Have yourself a great day, and keep your powder dry. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Date: 27 Jan 1998 11:08:35 -0500 Hey John, When I'm not goin' to rendezvous I buy from Spotted Pony. You may have seen them advertised in Smoke & Fire. Spotted Pony Traders 8451 Ravenna Ave Louisville, Ohio 44641 1-800-875-6553 They are great to deal with and will help you out if you tell them what you're makin'. Like Moc weight elk or makin' sure you get skins the right shape for leggin's. They do not sell cow hide. Good luck. - Bruce McNeal ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Author: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> at ##Internet Congratulations, Scott! Your new smooth bore sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you and yours get years of fun out of it. With your bag and all the stuff your making, let me hit you up for a suggestion... Do you know a good, trustworthy place to get leather. I have a Tandy leather near me, but things get pricey fast. Have yourself a great day, and keep your powder dry. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 27 Jan 1998 11:39:17 EST The Grad Student in question is Lynn Clayton. I'll inquire about Harris next time I talk to Lynn. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Spencer <omega_strings@eee.org> Subject: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 27 Jan 1998 10:59:38 -0800 Hello the List, First, I'd like to thank all who posted an answer to my fire making questions. My interest in fire making in general and friction fires in particular dates back many years. All of my knowledge of fire making came from my father who has spent many years working out his own method. He says that "the first friction fire he ever saw, he made himself". Several years ago my father was invited to participate in the Texas Folk Life Festival in San Antonio. This is an invitation only event featuring over 200 demonstrators of the "old way of doing things". They include everything from Flint Knapping to Gun Smithing, Candle Making to Bee Keeping, Shingle splitting to Black Smithing. My father was invited to demonstrate Primitive Fire Making. I flew to Texas to help him. 4, 11 hours days was a lot for a 73 year old man. In that 4 days I personally made over 600 friction fires and countless flint and steel and burning glass fires for over 80,000 people that came to the festival. When I say fires, I mean flames, not just smoke. It usually takes me less than one minute to produce flames using friction and it works every time. The materials that I use are very low tech and would have been readily available in any age. I have never seen a video or read a book on fire making so I don't know how others do it. My method does differ from those described in the responses posted on this list. I don't want to come off here as a "know-it-all" but I believe that those differences are worth sharing with you all. I also believe that successful friction fire making is a skill that anyone can master. I have taught too many 10 year old kids to do it to believe that it's a hard thing to do. Both my father and I freely share what we know with anyone who has an interest. What follows here is a detailed description of how I make friction fires. The basic, I'm sure are known to all of you so I won't bore you with that. You need a bow and a bow string. The materials are not really important as long as they work. My bow is a willow limb about 30 inches long and I use a standard leather boot lace for a bow string. 1/8" nylon last much longer but is less than "period". The most important thing is the selection of drill rod and fire board. They must be soft enough to produce the fine powder necessary to form an ember but hard enough to produce enough heat to generate the ember. Several woods can be used. I use the bloom stem from a Yucca plant for a drill rod, you can also use the large end of the Yucca bloom stem to cut a fire board. The fire board needs to be no more that 1/2" thick and can been most any length and width. A small depression is made in the fire board to receive the drill rod in such a way as to leave about 1/4" space between the outer edge of the drill rod and the edge of the fire board. I use drill rods about 12" long and 1/2" in diameter. I use a "bearing block" for the top of the drill rod cut from a hickory limb. It's about 2" in diameter and 2" long with a hole drilled about 1/2" deep to accept the top of the drill rod. You need to lubricate the top of the drill rod to reduce wear. To "break in" a new hole in the fire board you simply set the drill rod in the bow and place the end in the depression you made and slowly "drill" the drill rod into the depression until the you have a "mated" hole deep enough to "hold" the drill rod in place when you really "bear down" it. Some of the responses on the list mentioned that a notch is cut in to fire board. This is VERY important to success. This wedge shaped notch is cut with a knife from the edge of the fire board into the new "mated" hole you just "drilled". It should extend into the hole about 1/3 of the diameter of the hole. If the notch is too small, it will not work. If the notch is too big the drill rod will "break out" of the hole. Some experimentation will be necessary here to get the hang of making the correct sized notch. You are now ready to make a friction fire. This is where my method is different from most others. Take a small piece of thin material and place it under the fire board at the hole with the notch in it. I use 1/8" plywood about 2 inches square. You can use bark, flint chip, anything you want, I call this a "spark catcher". With the spark catcher under the fire board, set the drill rod in the bow and place the end of the drill rod in the hole. Brace the fire board under your foot and using the bearing block on the top of the drill rod brace this against your leg. Keep the drill rod perpendicular to the fire board and very steady as you begin to move the bow back and forth. The most common errors are putting too much pressure on the drill rod and not using the full length of the bow in each stroke. This whole process should only take about 15 seconds to produce an ember large enough to start a fire. At this point I am going into some details about what is happening at the fire board and drill rod. To produce a fire you must have 3 things, fuel (in vapor form), oxygen, and ignition temperature. As the drill rod begins to spin, friction is doing two things. It is generating heat and producing a fine powder. Some of this fine powder is vaporized by the heat and these vapors are surrounded by unvaporized powder. As this combination of vaporized and unvaporized powder falls into the notch cut in the drill rod hole it is able to "grow" undisturbed in the notch. As the quantity increases, the hot vapor begin to consume the unvaporized powder and an ember is formed in the notch. This ember is very hot and is capable sustaining itself for several minutes as it continues to consume the unburned powder. The only "trick" to this is producing enough heat and powder to form the ember in the notch. As the bow spins the drill rod you produce heat. When it stops at the end of a stroke, you lose heat. So you want to use the full length of the bow on each stroke to produce maximum heat. You must also spin the drill rod very fast. To do this consistently will require practice. But if it is done correctly, an ember about 1/4" in diameter can be produced in about 15 seconds. You can easily watch the ember building in the notch so you will know when to stop. Most of you have noticed by now that I have not mentioned tender at all. That's because it is a separate step in the fire making process. Once you have generated a good sized ember in the notch siting on top of the spark catcher, set your bow and drill rod aside and use your knife to separate the ember from the notch and move the fire board aside. You should have a nice glowing ember sitting on top of your spark catcher. You have several minutes to work with here so you don't need to hurry needlessly. The last step is to pick up the spark catcher with the ember on it and dump the ember into a "birds nest" of tender of your choice and gently blow it into flames much the same way as you do for a piece of char cloth that has caught a spark from flint and steel. That is all there is to it. It works perfectly every time and is surprisingly fast. If you choose to try this method and have a problem, feel free to contact me via personal email (not through the list) and I will do my best to help you succeed. Just a side note. I have heard mentioned several time that some of you make your own char cloth. If you are using any fabric manufactured from cotton in the U.S. you need to know that, by law, that cotton fabric has been treated with a flame retardant. This treatment makes your char cloth harder to ignite. It is a problem that the Mt. Men didn't have to deal with. The only way around it is to use something that hasn't been treated to make your char. I use raw cotton right off the plant and it is incredible, catches even the smallest spark. I know that this is a very long message but I think it will be of interest to at least some of you. Richard Spencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BHANNON999 <BHANNON999@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois at 1825 rendezvous Date: 27 Jan 1998 15:24:41 EST Howdy list, I have read " Black Harris " by Jerome Peltier, it holds together ok, with lots of footnotes, and sources. It can be obtained from the publisher at the following: Ye Galleon Press Box 287 Fairfield, Washington 99012 (509) 283-2422 Talk to Glen Adams, he is the 85 year old publisher with a wealth of information about this time period. Check his book list also, I found he is the publisher of Eldon G Chuinard's book " Only One Man Died " about the Lewis & Clark Expedition. Bob Hannon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 27 Jan 1998 12:51:13 -0800 I saw an interesting story on natives in New Guinea the other day and one of the things they showed was how they made fire. They didn't show it step by step but rather in association with making a dinner. Their method was to take a round stick about one and half inches in diameter and lay it on a birdnest of tinder. This stick appeared to used over and over for this purpose. A couple of inches from one end was a shallow groove that encircle the stick. They took a strip of thin dry back about a quarter of an inch wide and three feet long and looped it around the stick in the groove. They held the stick flat on the ground on top of the nest with one foot and took a hold of the bark strip with both hands, one on each end of the strip. By rapidly pulling on one end and then the other they had fire in a minute or so. They use a motion like they were trying to saw the stick in half with a ring saw. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Date: 27 Jan 1998 22:53:31 GMT Here's a source I've used for about 10 years. Don's a member of the AMM, and one of the straightest shooters I've ever met. If you don't see what you want in the catalog, ask for it. He carries a little bit of everything. At rendezvous, you need to visit his trade lodge daily, as the merchandise changes. =20 woodenhawk@aol.com http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html Usual disclaimer, no $$$ to me one way or the other. =20 Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com =46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 27 Jan 1998 19:13:25 -0600 Richard, and the list; This has been a good thread on friction fire building. I would like to emphasize a couple of issues. Fire is the first important tool, it remains essential to the survival of every life; in varied form. Only we enjoy communion with its earliest elements & origins. Many people who don't smoke carry lighters, probably because of the very primal connection; to a time when a man's fire kit was his first, best, and most important tool of survival. When I was a new Cub Scout (early 50's) a forgotten leader told me that to build a fire one must take a hardwood stick and a softwood stick and rub them together real fast. Never did work and I tried hard. I've always been a bit of a fire bug. Set me back years on starting to figure it out. When choosing a drill and fire board the wood is critical to success; several have listed their favourites. Generally woods of a similar hardness and cellular structure will maximize friction, woods of differing cellular structure help eliminate friction. That's why some drawer glides are so sticky, and some work fine. If the woods are of like cellular structure but of dissimilar hardness one will wear faster than the other and may increase friction only enough to get your hopes up. Poor for drawer glides, bad for fire building. To limit friction over a long useful life; use two differing hardwoods of similar density; i.e., cherry against oak, maple against ash or hickory. To maximize friction use two matching pieces of soft wood, like cottonwood, which chars readily. On wood to wood bearing surfaces use lye soap to reduce friction, use rosin to increase friction, use beeswax to lubricate metal to wood bearing surfaces, sweet oil for metal to metal. In this context I reference a woods density; not whether deciduous or coniferous; when I speak of hard & soft. Smooth fine grain stone or a hardwood hand bearing will allow free spinning (lube with spit, oil, soap, wax, &c.; if you need it) of the bearing end of the soft wood drill. In the woods a hand bearing of the same wood works. In building a fire; usually the softer the wood the better, well seasoned wood helps. Cottonwood, willow, cedar, yucca and many more have all been successfully used; most often with matching wood for both board and bow drill. A pump (aka: spindle or flywheel) drill is another ancient alternative that works well. With more practice and skill (easier for two people than one) a hand drill can be made to work. Any drill and fire board is easier to use the second and third time. Char the drill tip and fire board notch a bit, on a new set, to ease the first fire. Polish the bearing end to mate and run smooth. Almost any stick and cordage will make a suitable fire bow. Instead of making up (and only using) a kit of perfect tools; learn to build a fire with what is found as you wander. Save the perfect/fancy kit for showing off at rendezvous, lectures, faires and when demonstrating at a school or for a troop of scouts. So they know the real way; and you know your skills, not equipment, are at their peak. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 27 Jan 1998 21:35:36 EST In a message dated 1/27/98 8:45:22 PM, you wrote: <<Instead of making up (and only using) a kit of perfect tools; learn to build a fire with what is found as you wander. Save the perfect/fancy kit for showing off at rendezvous,>> John....real good information. Here in the Great Northwest, we have cottonwood, cedar, and willow....but we also have a lot of rain. You mentioned "seasoned" wood... can a friction fire be made out of "green", of even somewhat wet wood? Using a hawk and knife, I believe I can gather all the materials I need, but doubt if it would be seasoned...... Will give a report on results shortly. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nick names/ camp names Date: 27 Jan 1998 21:07:39 -0500 -----Original Message----- >> >>David, you seem quite knowledgeable about the Iroquois. I'd like to >>know if >>you know anything about a Mohawk chief named Tiyanoga, also known as >>Hendrik. I've not had much success in gathering data. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Fred >> >> >Why not ask the Mohawks their selves? There's a musemum that could 'Been that route with no success. >possibly help you...I went there when I was attending college in >Rochester, NY. The director of the program is a descdant of the Anglo >lady who decided to stay with the Senecas...Ms. Jamimeson...(sp?) He's a >real well known artist who decided to drop out of the rat race in NYC in >the art field after he felt that he was being pulled in opposite >directions. He might or might not recall me...just see if he remembers a >deaf guy who attended the Rochester Institute of Technology. Tell him I >sent ya the address. I also have some Mohawk addresses that relate to >some of them who decided to move back to their original birthplace Mohawk >Valley. I'll find that address later but here's the Victor address. > >Ganondagon State Historical Site >1488 Victor-Holcomb Rd >Victor, NY 14564 Thanks! >Real historic place as it was the last place that the Senecas lived >before being driven else where but what's so ironic is that the Seneca >reservations are nearby. They drifted back and got their lands back >(some of it anyway) and in one case one reservation even had to call in >the Army to kick out the original descdeants of the settlers who had >moved in there illegally and never paid more than $1 a year on a lease >that was quite old and not up to par to inflation by today's >standards...if they refused to pay up the new lease prices then they had >soldiers escort them off the premises. That reservation also has an >excellent musemum that I never had the opportunity to visit due to it >being far from Rochester but worth a visit in my opinion. The musemum >(Victor) showcases modern and traditional dances, traditional veg growing >methods (in my opinion superior to the traditional farming method of >planting in rows) and many more historical things. The Senecas aren't far from me, and have been to a pow wow. No one there was of any help either, but I certainly did enjoy the visit. >I'll try to find out the info about the Mohawk Valley...they do have web >site though. Check it out in the Native American sections. Let me know >what happens. I'd be grateful for the references......thanks very much. Regards, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Snow Snake Date: 27 Jan 1998 22:14:47 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Snow snake game is held on a flat field. The Eastern Indians would haul a small log in the snow to make a grove and teams of six completed to skid the snake the greatest distance the throw was made by holding the tail of the snake (a straight stick carved with a snakes head on it)with the index finger. The thumb and other fingers held the snake parallel to the ground. In a crouched position the thrower hurled the stick forward with an underhand sweep much as in modern day bowling or the snow snake could be thrown down the trough, much like skipping a stone on the water. Taken out of the book Indian Handcrafts by C Keith Wilbur ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Snow snake game is held on a flat = field. The Eastern Indians would haul a small log in the snow to = make a grove and teams of six completed to skid the snake the greatest = distance the throw was made by holding the tail of the snake (a straight = stick carved with a snakes head on it)with the index finger. The = thumb and other fingers held the snake parallel to the ground. In = a crouched position the thrower hurled the stick forward with an = underhand sweep much as in modern day bowling or the snow snake could be = thrown down the trough, much like skipping a stone on the water. = Taken out of the book Indian Handcrafts by C Keith = Wilbur </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2B70.FA976800-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 28 Jan 1998 01:43:08 EST Ho.....the List, Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly"? Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Smoothbore Report Date: 28 Jan 1998 07:28:53 -0500 John, The Leatherman in Carlisle, Pa. is good. I'll get you an address asap. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 28 Jan 1998 07:29:49 -0800 SWcushing wrote: > Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of > the Fur Trade Quarterly"? The Museum of the Fur Trade had them in stock. There were a few early years that had been sold old. Check with them. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: smoothbore fix Date: 28 Jan 1998 13:25:44 -0500 Hello the list, Well, found out the trouble with my smoothbore not suckin down those .600 ball. Considering some of the shotgun/smoothbore topics lately, some of you are going to get mad at me. I took it back up to Fort Chambers Gun Shop where I got it and we checked it out. Well, it turns out it is jug choked! No wonder it was shooting shot so well. Anyhow, good thing I didn't put a ball thru it. Now here comes the part that may make some of you mad, I left it to have the jug choke reamed out. My original purpose was to have something I could shoot either shot or ball, so I'm having this done. Man, she did shoot a great pattern though. I hope I can get a decent one afterwards. We couldn't even get a .570 ball down very easily until about an inch and a half down the bore and then it just fell in. I'm afraid the choke would act as an obstruction, so I thought it best to get it reamed. That's the scoop. I'm now waiting not so patiently to get it again! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 28 Jan 1998 17:33:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Write the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly they have a large list to pick from. Museum of the fur trade 6321 hwy 20 Chadron Nebraska 69337 Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly : Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 10:43 PM : : Ho.....the List, : : Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back issues of the "Museum of : the Fur Trade Quarterly"? : : Steve ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Write the Museum of the Fur Trade = Quarterly they have a large list to pick from. Museum of the = fur trade 6321 hwy 20 Chadron Nebraska 69337 Later Jon = Towns ---------- : From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly : = List, : : Can anyone tell me how, or where, I can get some back = issues of the "Museum of : the Fur Trade Quarterly"? : = : Steve </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2C12.D54BF3C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Date: 28 Jan 1998 19:55:21 PST Amen about my friend Wooden Hawk. If he ever tells you that a chicken dips snuff you should check under its wing for a can of Copenhagen. Big Zwey ---------- > Here's a source I've used for about 10 years. Don's a member of the > AMM, and one of the straightest shooters I've ever met. If you don't > see what you want in the catalog, ask for it. He carries a little bit > of everything. At rendezvous, you need to visit his trade lodge > daily, as the merchandise changes. > > woodenhawk@aol.com > http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html > > Usual disclaimer, no $$$ to me one way or the other. > Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous, rparker7@ix.netcom.com > Full SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Watches (was: Time and Damascus Steel) Date: 28 Jan 1998 19:46:14 -0700 I'm turning this one over to my husband too! Jeff responds once more: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> wrote: >One interesting item from David Thompson's journal during his early years >with the Hudson Bay Co. prior to his defection to the North West Fur Co., is >that just as soon a clock was available that the HBC considered dependable >and accurate enough to calculating longitude the Company immediately shipped >Thompson one from England. There were no details about what the timepiece >was like. Thompson first received two watches from the Hudson's Bay Company in 1792, although the type and maker are not known. Both of these watches gave him trouble, as he sent them for repair the following year, and borrowed a pair from Joseph Colen, the Governor of York Factory. The following year (1794) his watches returned from repair along with 'a second & stop watch with 2 case val[ue] [pounds]12.12 - with spare glasses and keys per Jolly ordered [serial] No. 310'. This watch was made by Joseph Jolly, 11 Dean Street, Fetter Lane, London. Jolly supplied watches to other early HBC explorers such as Peter Fidler (No. 291) and Malchom Ross (No. 292) (Jeff & Angela Gottfred, "The Life of David Thompson", in _Northwest Journal_ vol. V, citing Smyth). These Jolly watches appear to have been good quality 'common' watches, and not the much more accurate 'pocket chronometers'. Even though pocket chronometers were available, Thompson was not equipped with one. As late as 1810 he complains about the accuracy of his 'common watches'. I have computed his watch rate during December 1810 to January 1811 at 4 seconds per hour fast, plus or minus 9 seconds per hour. Such a watch would be useless for direct computation of longitude. The pocket chronometers or 'deck watches' made by Arnold, Earnshaw and Broeckbank were worth around 25 Guineas in 1806. Such pocket chronometers were as accurate as a second or two per day. Note that even this is not accurate enough for direct computation of longitude many months after the watch is set. (How much the watch gains or loses in any time period is irrelevant, what matters is whether the rate of gain or loss is constant. My Seiko quartz watch gains 0.5 seconds per day - however, its rate is so constant that I can compute GMT to one second accuracy after a year (leap seconds notwithstanding!). Pocket chronometers did not have such constant rates.) The better English made 'common' watches of the period (circa 1800) would have used a rack lever escapement (the detached lever escapement used in modern mechanical watches did not emerge until about 1814). Pocket chronometers used a spring detent escapement (Arnold began producing these in the early 1780's), required no oil, and keep just as good time today as they did when they were first made 200 years ago. (Landes, David S. _Revolution in Time : Clocks and the Making of the Modern World_. Belknap Press : Cambridge, Mass, 1983. ISBN 0-674-76800-0.) It is also an interesting historical note that Harrison's famous chronometers simply proved that accurate time-keeping was possible. His designs (with the exception of the retaining power) did not survive his No. 4. The pocket and boxed marine chronometers of Arnold &c. had completely different 'guts'. (see Sobel, Dava. _Longitude : The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatist Scientific Problem of His Time_. Walker & Co. : NY, 1995. ISBN 0-8027-1312-2) agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Friction Fire Making Date: 28 Jan 1998 18:27:13 -0600 At 09:35 PM 1/27/98 EST, Steve wrote: > >John....real good information. Here in the Great Northwest, we have >cottonwood, cedar, and willow....but we also have a lot of rain. You mentioned >"seasoned" wood... can a friction fire be made out of "green", of even >somewhat wet wood? > With enough work, patience and dogged determination most anything can be done. You just need to spin the drill fast enough and long enough to vaporize all the moisture. Have fun! It's fairly wet in other parts of the country; though most of us get a little tan with our rust. I've found dead standing to be the easiest to work with. Split away the outer wood and fashion fire tools from the inner wood, it will usually be dry enough, if it's not flat on the ground. Even when wet and rainy; the stringy inner bark from large cedar trunks and such on the ground is dry enough for tinder if taken from the top side of the log where the outer bark and drainage kept the inner dry. The wood beneath should be dry enough (seasoned) as well. If you can build fires in the Great North West you can build fires anywhere. Good luck. To maximize your skills learn to do without your knife and hawk. Then even one knife becomes a luxury not a necessity. When you know you need nothing but your knowledge & skills to survive, the inner certainty and self confidence gained; is beyond description of words. A benefit to every aspect of life. Being able to build a fire, no matter what you don't have, is primary to developing an absolute certainty of self. It is the most basic tool of survival. One of the people I learned from was Ivan from up in the Great North West. One thing was how to fashion stone into tools without causing great personal bodily harm. Not just flints for my lock, but, scrappers, and skinners, and choppers, and splitters, how to make the tool I need, when I need it. I don't know if Ivan's still around, Jon Townes could tell you. Ivan once told me he preferred western red cedar for fire tools; convenient considering where he lived. I've wondered if there might not be a way to make fire tools of "fat" wood that would ignite without aid of a tinder bundle. Fat wood being the extremely dense resinous heart wood found in old tamarack and such up in your country or ancient pines in the South. The sticky stuff that if you touch it with a flame it instantly ignites. Now that would be a kit you could sell. I can ignite a candle with char, I was told it wasn't possible, before I learned how. I would like to see the tape of the "Islander's" method Dennis Fisher described. Talk about a hot foot. In essence the stick is the fireboard and the bark is the bearing, bow and drill. Can't think of any bark and wood in this country with the right properties to make that work - off hand. Hickory bark might offer possibilities, willow is probably too weak. Friction on a char-able surface is what we seek. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois Date: 28 Jan 1998 20:56:25 +0000 Did an article a while back called "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois" if'n yer interested it can be read at: http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/essays/wiroquois.html Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: A source for leather Date: 29 Jan 1998 08:17:45 -0500 John, The Leatherman's address is: The Leatherman Gary Fatherree 45 Wedgewood Drive, Carlisle, Pa 17013 (717) 249-5977 Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois Date: 29 Jan 1998 18:54:04 +0000 Hi again, I just tried accessing my article "Those Naughty West Coast Iroquois at the site I mentioned yesterday and couldn't get it. So I suggest you go to the main site http://www.lib.uconn.edu/NativeTech/NativeTech.html Once there, choose "Essays and Articles". You should not have a problem with doing it that way. Sorry for the mistake. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 30 Jan 1998 16:58:37 -0600 (MDT) Hail the list! I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called Kentucky "nine." Here's my problem--It is well documented that Lewis had delivered 15 "short" rifles from the arsenal along with slings, cartouche boxes etc; I can even find a receipt and payment for fifteen shooting bags and powder horns, but I cannot find any documentation describing the "other" rifles taken or their source. I have "Firearms of the American West" describing journal entries showing there were both the short Harper's Ferry rifles and references to long rifles. Ambrose states that while in Philadelphia, Lewis journeyed to nearby Lancaster to buy additional rifles, but guess what? No reference, no footnote, no firm and no description. I'm presently pouring over Jackson's "Letters" and can find minute detail for almost all other purchases, but nothing for additional firearms. We know of additional supplies obtained in St. Louis but still nothing about firearms. It is known that substancial contracts to provide military arms were let to many Lancaster based gunsmiths for many years starting with the Revolution and beyond even Harper's Ferry coming online. I think the key to finding this secret is determining where Ambrose came across his bold statement. To do my personna correctly I can assume that these Kentucky Nine selected by Clark as backwoodsmen around Louisville would have had there own arms, but unless I can also see where Lewis took additional Locks and gun parts and even a psuedo gunsmith/blacksmith in the Fields but I can't see him saying to those additional members he picked up along the way "Just use your own weapon there!' All other details are too precise. As an aside I also found some interesting details in those lists. Here's just a few observations. There were 500 rifle flints but also 150 musket flints 1pair Horseman pistols 2 pocket pistols for Lewis specifically Also in the invoice of weapons received from Harper's Ferry are 18 tomahawks- some would say these could be for indian trade but I don't believe so for two reasons 1: all the indian trade items are listed and obtained through other vendors in fat on page 93 are listed 12 pipe tomahawks otained under indian presents 2: Most of the numbers of materials obtained through the arsenal are very close to 15 or multiples thereof which was the originally determined size for the expedition.(WHY and how it grew is another very interesting mystery and story) back to weapons: 15 scalping knives and belts 15 gun slings 30 brushes and wires 15 cartouch (sic) box belts These boys knew how to fight hand to hand and weren't going to rely on fire power only! 15 blankets 3 pt.(interesting in light of some of our recent speculation concerning the use of "points" in describing blankets 15 match coats 15 priv. (?) Wool overalls (Blue) 20 Frocks 30 Priv. Lin. shirts 20 Pr. Shoes 15 Painted Knapsacks (from p.98 Letters of the lewis and clark expedition by Donald Jackson second edition) Also on p. 90 an entry for 107 yds of 7/8 (?) Linen @1/6 and then a few lines later To making the brown linen into 8 Tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps, &c. Thread &c. To 2 gross of Hooks &Eyes @ 3/9 sounds to me like he expected his soldiers to each carry a half tent and then hook them together (eyelets and laps)????? 46 1/2 yds of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders Sheeting To making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags, Thread & cord. To Oiling all the Linen & Sheeting-- 150 Square Yards To numbering all the Bags & Tents They also got one tent (officers??) from Harper's Ferry as well I guess we know they expected to be waterproof including the tents. This last thing MIGHT shed some light on some of the PACK issues we've discussed. On page 74 in Lewis's list of materials he wanted are: 30 Sheep skins taken off the animal as perfectly whole as possible whithout being split on the belly as usual and dress'd only with lime to free them from the wool; or otherwise about the same quantity of Oil Cloth bags well painted. First of all he got the bags and not the hides but it is interesting consideration and one that MAY not have been his alone as to the use of an animal case as a transport device. But look what follows. Raw Hide for pack strings Dress'd letter for Hoppus-Straps Other packing Jackson has an interesting footnote to the Hoppus-straps The source of the term is not entirely clear: "hoopas" has been identified as an indian term for knapsack. Now for the speculation. There are at least 6 different types of needles taken along by the expedition along with thread and cordage. It is MY feeling that Lewis intended to use these "Hoppus-Straps" as shoulder straps for his animal case or Oil cloth bags and have his men sew these on when and where needed along the way. Makes me wonder how common the methodology was...... Any help on the guns would be greatly appreciated. YMHOS Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Corp of Discovery Date: 31 Jan 1998 08:14:24 EST Rick, I don't know about the other guns of the corps of discovery. I am on page 48 of Undaunted Courage. If I see any thing of value I'll pass it on. You seemed a little taken back by each person carrying half a tent and then hooking them together. We did that in the Army and that was not even ten years ago. Since so much of the way the army still does things goes back to those days, I would not be surprised if that were the case. Anyhow, thanks for all the other research you shared in the letter. It was good stuff and fun to read. And to those of you who put me on to WoodenHawk for leather, thanks! His prices are great, and I look foreward to doing some dealings with him. If any one else wants to try him out, he's at: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/WoodenHawk/tradingco.html">Woodenhawk's Buckskinning Supplies</A> Have a great day, and watch your top knots! John F. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 31 Jan 1998 08:46:44 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM : : Hail the list! : : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called : Kentucky "nine." : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Well Rick I am a student of the Corp = of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a = memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact = that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I = don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list = because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list = can remember. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Rick = Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> : To: hist_text@xmission.com; = hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of = Discovery : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM : : Hail = the list! : : I've had an interest to determine which arms the = Corp of Discovery : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. = My personna is that of a : non-military member of the Corp. = Probably one of the so called : Kentucky = "nine." : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD2E24.C2168CC0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 31 Jan 1998 15:13:06 PST I think you will find that the Corps of Discovery had one air rifle which Lewis used mainly to entertain and amaze Indians, although it was apparantly capable of killing. Ambrose mentions it often in Undaunted Courage. However, one should be careful when using this book (which is a great read, by the way) as a reference.. Consider this passage from chapter fifteen, page 177, regarding his blackpowder rifle. "Lewis always had his rifle primed, with the bullet, wadding, and powder charge set in place, so that when he saw a target he had only to set his espontoon vertically on the ground, measure out the powder for the pan, swing his rifle up to the rest, slip in his flint, bring the hammer to full cock, aim and fire. If the target was within a hundred yards and bigger than a mouse, he usually got it." (according to Ambrose an espontoon was a sort of pike, about six feet in length, with a wooden shaft and metal blade with a crosswise attachment at shoulder height that served as a rifle rest.) I don't know about everybody else, but most of the folks I shoot with will "slip in his flint" somewhat more in advance of pulling down on a target. Lanney Ratcliff ---------- > Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several > books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read > and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where > I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list > because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can > remember. Later Jon Towns > > ---------- > : From: Rick Williams <ERWillia@admrec.byu.edu> > : To: hist_text@xmission.com; hist_text@xmission.com > : Subject: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery > : Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:58 PM > : > : Hail the list! > : > : I've had an interest to determine which arms the Corp of Discovery > : used beside the pre 1803 Harper's Ferry. My personna is that of a > : non-military member of the Corp. Probably one of the so called > : Kentucky "nine." > : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cliff " <cliffb@litenet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 17 Jan 1998 18:44:08 -0500 ---------- Well Rick I am a student of the Corp of Discovery also and have several books on the subject but I have a memory problem. Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. Sorry, I'll run across it and tell the list because it will bug me until I find it. Maybe someone on the list can remember. Later Jon Towns There was a reference in the Lewis and Clark journals about using the air rifles on several occasions. I beleive it was to impress the natives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Other guns of the Corp of Discovery Date: 31 Jan 1998 22:31:58 EST In a message dated 98-01-31 14:23:32 EST, you write: << Where!!! I have read and know for a fact that the Corp had Air Rifles ( about 50 cal) but where I read it I don't remember. >> They had 1 air rifle -- one of Lewis' "toys". It's mentioned numerous times in their journals -- Specificaly on Fri, Jan 24, 1806. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider <blurdr@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Door flap Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:20:30 -1000 Dave Parks wrote: > > Lodgepole, don't ever lose that door flap, you'd never be able to > replace it, it's gotta be one out of a 1000! > > regards, Manywounds I almost hate to say this, but my father scraped and dried a piece of hide off the first deer I ever killed and nailed it to a stool we both used in his workshop. It was in almost daily use for the next 35 years and never went bald or even close to it. I don't even remember it's slipping any hair at all. Was he magic or what? Aloha Blue