ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hdproject/archive/hdproject.199904

Internet Message Format | 1999-04-30 | 53KB

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) test message
Date: 23 Apr 1999 00:44:03 -0600

*tap* *tap* *tap*
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) P.P.S. <grin>
Date: 23 Apr 1999 00:55:09 -0600

If you're reading this, it means the list is fully operational. Feel free
to start using it instead of the CC lists. I just cut/pasted from my Eudora
bookmark, so holler if I missed any names:


C u r r e n t   L i s t   I s :
[e-mail]
Rorschach <[e-mail]>
Timber <[e-mail]>
Corwyn J. Alambar <[e-mail]>
Coyote <[e-mail]>
Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
T'shai <[e-mail]>
Edward Becerra <[e-mail]>
[e-mail]
Follower of the Clawed Albino <[e-mail]>
jess smith <[e-mail]>
KatmanDu <[e-mail]>
Landon Solomon <[e-mail]>
Nary lethotep <[e-mail]>
"R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" <[e-mail]>
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Wontolla <[e-mail]>
[e-mail],
Yhoneska Imtayme <[e-mail]>


G'night, all! =)
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. <grin>
Date: 23 Apr 1999 03:50:41 EDT

Looks like it's working just fine.

Flenser


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Glenda Woodrum <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. <grin>
Date: 23 Apr 1999 09:46:14 -0500

>If you're reading this, it means the list is fully operational. Feel free
>to start using it instead of the CC lists. I just cut/pasted from my Eudora
>bookmark, so holler if I missed any names:

just as hissspelling...

t'shai <[e-mail]>

Spyder, small 't' please.

((hugs the spyder in it's coils--looks sleepy now that's it's sudden'y
getting cold again--wonders where the warm went--give the wendigo critter a
sour look and slithers away shedding ice crystals)
Glenda Woodrum
Editor: genrEZONE  http://www.genrezone.com
Fiction Editor: Con-Tour Magazine http://www.con-tour.com
Editor: Twilight Times Books http://www.twilighttimes.com
Member: Romance Foretold, Inc. http://www.romfort.org

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. <grin>
Date: 23 Apr 1999 10:19:06 -0600

At 9:46 AM -0500 4/23/1999, Glenda Woodrum wrote:
=>
=> just as hissspelling...
=>
=> t'shai <[e-mail]>
=>
=> Spyder, small 't' please.

Ooopsie. =)  All fixed now.

There's one more difficulty: all of Corwyn's mail to best.com is bouncing.
If anyone knows some other way to reach him, you might wanna let him know
there's a problem with it...
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Re: 404 Error...
Date: 23 Apr 1999 10:30:42 -0600

I crossposted my reply to (hopefully) clear up any similar confusion.

At 11:09 AM -0400 4/23/1999, Wontolla wrote:
=> Uh, Spyder?
=>
=> I get a 404 from the FAQ URL that you posted for the new
=> list.

Whooops! I bet 'Yote removed the pages... he said he was thinking about
doin' that... =\

=> Got a question, will something I post to the new list be
=> autoposted to the old one or should I crosspost?

Nope, they're independant lists, although someone subscribed to heartsdream
can post messages to hdproject. Both will remain active, but if people
don't want to be 'subjected' to the chat on heartsdream, they don't need to
be subscribed to both. <g>

=> Or should we just not post anything from the on topic list
=> to the old list?

Can do both, if you like. The idea is, "heartsdream" is for discussion,
chat, and in general an 'online community/meeting hall' for the weres and
friends of HD to meet and talk about things not _necessarily_ pertaining to
the building of the project itself. While "hdproject" is for building
ideas, time-tables, locations, and all sorts of matters pertaining directly
to building HD or multiple HD's or werehouses worldwide... =)

Also, for the time being until I can get a mail alias set up, note the fact
that the address is @_lists._xmission.com -- it won't deliver without that
until I can talk to my pal Jeff about fixing that (hopefully later today...)

After that both '[e-mail]' and '[e-mail]'
will be viable addresses (until the Nic revokes therianthrope.org at least.
;1)
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wontolla <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Acquiring useful stuff (long)
Date: 25 Apr 1999 11:03:29 -0400

I had an exhausting but productive day yesterday. I went
to a local "Flea market/antique store going out of
business auction. It lasted all day and I had to take
a nap in my car in the middle of it, but it was worth
the time.

I got a brand new reel mower for $8.00. I paid
$9 for a box lot which contained; a milk crate with
a box FULL of galavanized nails, a compartmented
tray full of all sorts of nuts and bolts, a push broom
head, a miter box, a hand turned grinding wheel and a
pipe vise (the box all of this was in was a very nice
heavy duty plastic storage container with a lid).
I got a massive old steamer trunk with two trays
(allowing 3 levels of storage) in good condition for
$17.50 and a monsterous old solid oak display case
with lovely decorative carving (minus its glass),
for $15.00.

Later I brought a friend back to help me pick up the
display case, and she got: a sledge, a new double bitted
ax, a saw, a long bladed scythe, a logging hook, 7
brand new hammers, a huge pile of rope, and a box full of
new paintbrushes for a grand total of exactly $30.

If you need stuff, and can find an auction, you can
very likely find something that you need for literally
pennies on the dollar. I especially recomend auctions
for outfitting your tool shop. Not only will you get
a good price, but you can find things like that hand
crank grinding wheel that you can't get anywhere else.
I estimate that the nails alone paid for my time,
nails usually run about $1.10 a pound and I got
about 50lbs in that milk crate.

There is a real danger with auctions though that I've
got to mention. You can get stuck with a piles of stuff
that you don't need in order to get that one thing
that you want. I almost never buy any boxed lots
for that reason. Usually gettting that one really
nifty tool means you'll have to deal with 3 cracked
china cups, a bent spatula with a melted handle,
a 4 bent spoons, a notched hatchet with a broken
handle, a pile of nameless fuses, etc, etc, etc.

Now if you can get some useful stuff that you
don't really need with that one item that you do,
you can sell the unwanted stuff later in a yard
sale. But you always have to keep in mind that you
are going to have to deal with it somehow (and I
personally detest throwing stuff in the trash to
clutter up some landfill).

That friend of mine who helped me get the case says
her father-in-law used to be an auction addict and
would go and buy almost anything that went for a dollar
or 2, he would then bring it home, and shove it in a
storage building. When the building filled up, he would
build another.

When he died they had an auction.

Wontolla

[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Price <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 25 Apr 1999 15:31:43 -0500


Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week.  <sigh>

In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list.  That CC: thing was
getting messy. ;)

Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are
appropriate?  From the description, this list is intended as something more
technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal
items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here?  I realize that the central
complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list,
and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in
more technical issues.

Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists
regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant
topics?  I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of
relevant info in them.

luck & laughter,
=Timber=

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rorschach <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 01:29:11 -0700 (PDT)

On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Dave Price wrote:

>
> Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week.  <sigh>
>
> In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list.  That CC: thing was
> getting messy. ;)
>
> Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are
> appropriate?  From the description, this list is intended as something more
> technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal
> items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here?  I realize that the central
> complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list,
> and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in
> more technical issues.

This depends on the audience.  If everyone on the  old list can see what
is being posted  on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable
going into private/spiritual/personal info.  If the people on hdproject is
basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by
somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should
be included) type thing then I think it is very definitely a place for
personal info and that type of discussion.  What I see hdproject for is
for the "core" discussion of HD pretty much by and for the people who will
really be doing something to organize, fund, and construct it.  This
discussion should (possibly even more than on heartsdream) involve people
talkinga bout themselves, discussiing personal beleifs and issues, and
other socail aspects taht will let us see how well we may be able to
co-exist before taking the step of moving into the same house.

> Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists
> regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant
> topics?  I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of
> relevant info in them.

OI think this would be a very good way to being outside ideas and veiws
into our discussions.  There are a lot of people working on very similar
projects and a lot has been done and solved long before we have gotten
here.  Re-inventing the wheel can be fun, but is best not done too often.

   .       .                        Rors (Rorschach)
   | \   / |
   |/ """ \?               A simple pattern of Black and White?
   //,\ /,\\      Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance.
   \  |_|  /    We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
      `='        "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 06:29:26 -0500 (EST)

In order to bring the "H&S" thread over here:

The debate "organic" vs. "hydroponics" is one tha can go on for decades.
ATM we prolly cannot afford to have a proper hydro farm going. We'll have
to stcik with getting down in the dirt, and with erecting a greenhouse for
those"other" plants that will do better in such an environment.

One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is Crop Rotation.
This is something that needs to be done so we don't end up with dead land.
This means that we need to have at least 3 plots to use, if we are to do
this effectively. While one plot is being used, the other 2 can be used for
something else.

I'm not certain about this, but maybe having plants that require different
soil is good enough for this, but I'd doubt it. If we are to have our own
livestock at some point, those animals could most likely graze in the
fields that are not being used for crops. This way the fields are kept
"healthy" until the time comes for them to  be used,

=Digi
                                                              _    _
Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser     o--------------------o  //___//
[e-mail]             | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ (
http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb   |/^    ^/(
ICQ: 21109302   IRC : Digi2          o--------------------/ ---- /;/
alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi                   /_____////
alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi                    `v---v'//
             "Dragons hold the true spirit of life."      `===='~
DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 09:29:06 -0600

At 1:29 AM -0700 4/26/1999, Rorschach wrote:
=>
=> This depends on the audience.  If everyone on the  old list can see what
=> is being posted  on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable
=> going into private/spiritual/personal info.

Nah, that's not hw it works -- people on either list are allowed to post
messages directly to the other list, whether or not they're subscribed to
it. That way, people can email this list to ask to be added to it or to ask
questions, and people here can email back with answers to questions...
Messages however are not crossposted automatically. =)

  If the people on hdproject is
=> basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by
=> somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should
=> be included)

What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection
to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =)  Makes it
sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for
that person.
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coyote <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 14:52:23 -0400

>  If the people on hdproject is
>=> basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by
>=> somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should
>=> be included)
>
>What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection
>to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =)  Makes it
>sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for
>that person.

I like that idea much better. I fear that the only thing sponsorship will
do is give us someone to blame if the sponsored newbie is a pain... and who
cares about blame?

I know that is ntohat is intended, but that is what I fear.

I would rather use Spyder's idea for this particular thing.

Coyote

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coyote <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 14:47:00 -0400

>Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week.  <sigh>
>
>In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list.  That CC: thing was
>getting messy. ;)
>
>Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are
>appropriate?  From the description, this list is intended as something more
>technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal
>items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here?  I realize that the central
>complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list,
>and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in
>more technical issues.

I woudl rather not do the mandatory profile thing. I think we know each
other well enough, and I'm frankly not interested in any heavy recruiting.

I think we can handle a small amount of personal interaction... I just
don;t want to see all of the conversation overwhelemd by off-topic chat. Id
like to see that kept to a strict minimum.

I think that personal items and thoughts are still appropriate, as long as
they are along the lines of us getting to know each other better, and not
just chatter and bantering and kidding and such. If someoen wants to post
their hopes and dreams, or what their dream family or home would be like...
that seems more appropriate than "I had a really nice day at the aquarium
and I thought I'd tell you all about it!"

>Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists
>regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant
>topics?  I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of
>relevant info in them.

Post away! You've found some good stuff  before!

Coyote

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Price <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 15:49:59 -0500


Regarding crop rotation, it's a pretty standard intensive/organic gardening
technique.  It's a little more sophisticated than just "rotating" crops -
it depends on the kind of nutrients different plants deposit and remove
from the soil, and using complementarty combinations.

This is a very simplistic rendition - there are lots of techniques out
there for high-yield organic gardening, particularly small scale stuff.  I
don't have any websites on hand, but I reccomend you look into the work
done by John Jeavons and Alan Chadwick in this area.  There's lots of books
on this out there, and I'll be looking into them as soon as my time and
budget allows.  Exact methods will depend on where you are and what you
decide to grow.

Also, I highly reccomend getting a subscription to Mother Earth News.  It's
one of the best magazines out there on this subject and other aspects of
country living.

This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here
actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just
as a dietary supplement?  I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large
garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits.  Farming for profit is a losing
game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100%
self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a
tremendous amount of effort.  Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden
and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to
buy the rest.  Total escape from civilization is not my objective.

luck,
=Timber=

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:14:15 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 03:49 PM, Dave Price wrote:

>> This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here
>> actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just
>> as a dietary supplement?  I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large
>> garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits.

This would be the ideal situation. But we do need to be prepared to go to
full self-suffeciency should the time come. What are the plans regarding
food storage. This is something to be looked into regardless.
In SA we survived drought conditions because we had stockpiled what we
could ('we' being the government). Thus we were able to not only support
ourselves, but other countries that has the need.

-----snip-----

>>  Total escape from civilization is not my objective.

Nor is it mine. I'm just saying we should be prepared.

=Digi
                                                              _    _
Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser     o--------------------o  //___//
[e-mail]             | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ (
http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb   |/^    ^/(
ICQ: 21109302   IRC : Digi2          o--------------------/ ---- /;/
alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi                   /_____////
alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi                    `v---v'//
             "Dragons hold the true spirit of life."      `===='~
DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coyote Osborne <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:14:57 -0400

Digi Wrote:
>One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is Crop Rotation.
>This is something that needs to be done so we don't end up with dead land.

You are absoolutely correct.

>This means that we need to have at least 3 plots to use, if we are to do
>this effectively. While one plot is being used, the other 2 can be used for
>something else.

Well... yeah... for just about everything, you want to let the soil rest.
Usually you have four plots and rotate one out each cycle. In addition, you
also want to alternate types of plants... certain plants restore nutrients
that other plants remove. In a greenhouse, you mix in compost and such to
rejuvenate the soil.

Part of organic gardening practice is making sure that you refresh the
soil. Whatever you remove, you must later return and replenish. Ideally
with things you get from the same place.

Remember, also that you don;t necessarily need huge tracts of land <grin>.
Raised bed and other forms of "concentrated" gardening don't take up as
much space.

Another suggestion that Organic gardening methods seem to have is that you
have a variety of plants growing together... even some that may not be of
direct use to you (marigolds to keep bugs off yer other plants for
instance)... this makes it inconvenient to do mechanical picking... but
we're not likely to be doing that anyway.

Coyote
---
Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck?
Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at:
http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml
---
John "Coyote" Osborne
113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coyote Osborne <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Crops & Independance
Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:32:27 -0400

Timber Wrote:
>This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here
>actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just
>as a dietary supplement?

I'd like to be as self-suffiecient as possible... as far as vegetation goes
at the least. In othe words, I don;t mind gettign supplemental food and
food we can't or don;t grow from other sources... but I'd like that to be a
luxury, not a necessity. I'd at least like to grow our own staples.

I would rather not farm for money. IMHO, it's a losing proposition, except
maybe for novelty/specialty stuff. If we grow herbs and make our own herb
shampoo, we might make a small profit outta that if we're lucky... but as
foodstuff, I think the current "plight of the american farmer" shows us
that is a losing proposition.

If it is a pain to grow food for ourselves, imagine how much moreso to grow
food for many many people we'll never see?

> Farming for profit is a losing
>game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100%
>self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a
>tremendous amount of effort.

I think if you only have a couple of people it is a pain... but many hands
make light work.

The big problem, I think, is that you just cannot grow every single thing
you might want every year. I'd say we should focus on staples and things
that are cheaper to grow than to buy, at least at first. And we should
always try to grow more than we need and preserve and can teh rest.

Speaking of which... I'm working on a great canning and preserving book at
work.. the University of Georgia college of Agriculture has been doing "So
Esay to Preserve" for years.. and this year I'm the typesetter <grin> It's
about 400 pages of recipes, instructions, descriptions etc. for canned
goods, preserves, dried foods, veggies, meats, etc. I've been drooling over
it. It has everything from gourmet recipe type stuff to canned squirrel!
I'll be getting a couple copies, and of course will have the electronic
text of the whole thing.

>Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden
>and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to
>buy the rest.

Gardens, at least, do not move, bleat, moo or poop. <grin> I think some
goats will be pretty easy, and a few chikens are no trouble. I'd rather not
have a whole herd of large animals.. especially at the beginning. Rabbits
(if no ons is squeamish about eating bunnies) are decent as food animals.
Ducks are great. Birds are relatively low-maintenance as long as you don;t
get the weird superbreeder dumb-as-gravel-non-broody kind. You get eggs,
down and meat, and they are easy to feed and house. ducks are really easy.
You feed em and they stay around. Gees make good watchdogs, and can help
cut down on any accidental depredations by domestic pets like dogs. Geese
can be rather bellicose, you see. ; )

Big problem with goats, is that while yummy and while they produce milk,
they are clever enough to make it really easy to like them so you don;t
wanna eat em. I find them so anyway.

I've even seen some people that keep a _few_ sheep, and it doesn;t look
like they are _too_ annoying.

All of the animals I've mentioned are relatively small... not like cows or
pigs. they need to be sheltered, fed and given clean, safe environs.

>Total escape from civilization is not my objective.

I'd like civilization to be more of a luxury than a necessity too though <G>
---
Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck?
Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at:
http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml
---
John "Coyote" Osborne
113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577

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From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Farming and Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 17:42:26 -0700 (PDT)

Some comments from this side:

At a friend's recommendation I picked up a book on a concept called
permaculture - an idea of creating a n ecosystem that generates excess food
that can be harvested.  It has some very intersting ideas, and the point is
that it is self sustaining after the first few years as long as you don't take
all the seeds away.  There are some good examples in what I've perused - such
things as using rice as part ofa permaculture, and 6' tall "towers of flowers"
that allow you to grow arid-weather and rain-forest crops within a few feet of
each other.

n the meat and livestock end...

It may be unavoidable to consider some manner of large stock - pigs, cattle,
horses... They are quite valuable, particularly horses.  Nothing sucks worse
than having to trundle out to the property line (all mile long of it) with a
50 lb. bucket of nails and "posted" signs, on foot.  ALso, horses don't break
down like tractors do, and can often feed themselves (to a limited extent) off
the local herbiage.

Rabbits are useful - 28 days from birth to table, and they provide soft fur
that can be used in a number of places.  Chickens are good, if a bit stressful
on the environment.  I have never attempted to subsist upon goat's milk -
how many goats are required to produce milk for a group as large as ours?

Additionally, the first few years we will be buying staples, then we will
produce enough ,then we will begin to produce a surplus - so the problem about
not being able to grow everythign we'll want to eat becomes somewhat moot with
crop rotations.  If tomatoes are in the rotation this time, then plant a lot
and put up spaghetti sauce, steamed tomatoes, etc.  Then next year we could
grow corn, instead, and put up extras of that as well.

Just some thoughts here...

-Corey



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From: Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance
Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:20:54 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 07:32 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote:


>> Gardens, at least, do not move, bleat, moo or poop. <grin> I think some
>> goats will be pretty easy, and a few chikens are no trouble. I'd rather
>> not have a whole herd of large animals.. especially at the beginning.
>> Rabbits (if no ons is squeamish about eating bunnies) are decent as food
>> animals.

I recently had rabbit for the first time. I must say that although it
really does taste like chicken, I found a lot more tasty than the bird.
Here's a thought for the veggie patch: What about soya? It's high-protein
and can be substituted into all sorts of things.


=Digi
                                                              _    _
Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser     o--------------------o  //___//
[e-mail]             | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ (
http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb   |/^    ^/(
ICQ: 21109302   IRC : Digi2          o--------------------/ ---- /;/
alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi                   /_____////
alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi                    `v---v'//
             "Dragons hold the true spirit of life."      `===='~
DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 21:44:58 -0600

At 2:47 PM -0400 4/26/1999, Coyote wrote:
=>
=> I think we can handle a small amount of personal interaction... I just
=> don;t want to see all of the conversation overwhelemd by off-topic chat. Id
=> like to see that kept to a strict minimum.

<grin> That's why we're keeping the other list -- to fill our daily thrope
chat quota. ;1
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Spyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 21:47:33 -0600

At 3:49 PM -0500 4/26/1999, Dave Price wrote:
=>
=> This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here
=> actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just
=> as a dietary supplement?  I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large
=> garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits.

Me, too. I can see us raising our own fruit, food, and small game, but
hardly opening a roadside stand with 'hormone free werewolf grown
raspberries!' =1

Of course, Eugene has a wonderful Saturday market every weekend, so if we
_do_ have a glut of one thing we can always unload it for a few bucks, too.
=)
  Spyder       <mailto:[e-mail]>

"We're living at the end of a world
             and the beginning of a NEW one."
                    - Fenris, April 1999

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rorschach <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:35:55 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Spyder wrote:

> At 1:29 AM -0700 4/26/1999, Rorschach wrote:
> =>
> => This depends on the audience.  If everyone on the  old list can see what
> => is being posted  on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable
> => going into private/spiritual/personal info.
>
> Nah, that's not hw it works -- people on either list are allowed to post
> messages directly to the other list, whether or not they're subscribed to
> it. That way, people can email this list to ask to be added to it or to ask
> questions, and people here can email back with answers to questions...
> Messages however are not crossposted automatically. =)

Ah, OK.  That is cool!

>   If the people on hdproject is
> => basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by
> => somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should
> => be included)
>
> What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection
> to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =)  Makes it
> sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for
> that person.

How you are saying it (with people being able to voice their objections)
seems the best way with how the lists are set up.

   .       .                        Rors (Rorschach)
   | \   / |
   |/ """ \?               A simple pattern of Black and White?
   //,\ /,\\      Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance.
   \  |_|  /    We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
      `='        "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rorschach <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:57:40 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Dave Price wrote:


>
> This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here
> actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just
> as a dietary supplement?  I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large
> garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits.  Farming for profit is a losing
> game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100%
> self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a
> tremendous amount of effort.  Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden
> and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to
> buy the rest.  Total escape from civilization is not my objective.

I agree that farming for profit is a losing proposition.  Selling produce
may end up a handy way to make a little extra money (if we end up growing
too much of something and son't end up giving it away or trading to the
neighbors) but it is definitely not a serious income source.

I agree that a large garden and some animals may be the best solution,
especially in the near term.  It provides a very good suplement to our
food and also lets us decide if we want to (or are even able to) expand
further.  I would love to see us able to provide (through raising and
hunting) most of the meat that we eat if at all possible.  A lot of the
meat that is on the market is getting more and more artificial and has
increasing amounts of chemical "additives".  Animals that we are raising
we have control over what gets fed to them.

Something that I would like to see is for us to have the possibility of
sufficiency farming exist.  Having the tools, materials, and skills in
place would be a good thing.  (From what I can see it is really not that
different a set of materials than we would need for gardening, main
difference would be the amount of time spent.)

Actually this does bring up a question, do we want to grow any of the
carbohydrate staples ouselves (rice, wheat, etc)?

   .       .                        Rors (Rorschach)
   | \   / |
   |/ """ \?               A simple pattern of Black and White?
   //,\ /,\\      Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance.
   \  |_|  /    We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
      `='        "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rorschach <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance
Date: 26 Apr 1999 23:26:25 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Digital Dragon wrote:

> I recently had rabbit for the first time. I must say that although it
> really does taste like chicken, I found a lot more tasty than the bird.
> Here's a thought for the veggie patch: What about soya? It's high-protein
> and can be substituted into all sorts of things.

Soy is, I think, a good staple crop.  It's main problem form what I have
heard, is that it has to be processed (I am not sure how actually) in some
ways before it is actually edible.  We would want to check into this
processing and make sure it is something that we can and want to handle.

Soy is a very good protien source and when cooked up (and more
importantly spiced) right is usually very apetizing
even to the carnivores, so it can end up being a decent supllement to the
meat budget.

   .       .                        Rors (Rorschach)
   | \   / |
   |/ """ \?               A simple pattern of Black and White?
   //,\ /,\\      Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance.
   \  |_|  /    We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured.
      `='        "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops & Independance
Date: 27 Apr 1999 02:04:36 -0700


This has come up before.  My opinion:

We gain the most by farming specialty items that would otherwise be very
expensive (baby greens), things that taste much better or aren't available
fresh (herbs, some fruits/nuts/berries), and things we can't get without
driving to a big city (garlic, hot peppers).  These groups usually overlap.

We gain the least by farming cheaply available staples that store well
(beans and grains).

It would probably be fun to experiment with varieties on staples (amaranth,
quinoa, heirloom wheats, and so on) and provide a backup source of seed in
case of emergency.

// grigs


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops
Date: 27 Apr 1999 06:15:15 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 10:57 PM, Rorschach wrote:

>
>> Actually this does bring up a question, do we want to grow any of the
>> carbohydrate staples ouselves (rice, wheat, etc)?

This may not be a bad idea. Potato pretty much grows itself if you let it.
Rice OTOH I've no idea how to grow. From the plantations I've seen it
requires lots of water. I think it grows in water.

Also, one can make flour out of potato _and_ its a good source of vitamins.

I'll admit right now that I'm no farmer, I'm just relating what I've seen
in documentaries and stuff.

=Digi
                                                              _    _
Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser     o--------------------o  //___//
[e-mail]             | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ (
http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb   |/^    ^/(
ICQ: 21109302   IRC : Digi2          o--------------------/ ---- /;/
alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi                   /_____////
alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi                    `v---v'//
             "Dragons hold the true spirit of life."      `===='~
DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wontolla <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops & Independance
Date: 27 Apr 1999 11:02:35 -0400



> Timber Wrote:
> This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here actually
> plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just as a dietary
> supplement?

I wouldn't want to try to farm for money unless some
relatively easy to grow high cash crop (LEGAL!) could be
found. Basically that is sort of an oxymoron, farming
tends to be incredibly low paying/labor intensive. Maybe
there are some exceptions to this. I would like to see
as close to self sufficiency as possible though, with the
ability to cross the line into self sufficiency if needed.

I am starting my first garden in about 12 years this spring.
I'll keep you all posted on how it turns out. However, it
will definitely be a losing proposition in terms of money
vs just buying groceries for at least this year.  After
taking a good look at my stoney/sandy/clay soil and realizing
that to grow anything I would need to do some major soil
improvement I gritted my teeth bought a small gas powered
tiller. After I finish getting all of those trees I bought
in the ground I have to start hauling dirt/composted
manure from my horse pens to till into my garden spot.

For me though, the advantages of being able to grow
non adulterated, irradiated, pesticided produce is one
of the MAJOR perks of having land.

BTW do all those springtime pesticide/herbicide lawn
commercials creep anybody else out as much as they do
me? Want a nice green lawn? Spray poison on it! Now
go out and play on it.

Gee, why IS the cancer/alzhiemers/parkinsons rate
so high?....Shudder.


Wontolla

[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yhoneska Imtayme <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence
Date: 28 Apr 1999 19:32:13 -0400

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:52:23 -0400 Coyote <[e-mail]> writes:
>I like that idea much better. I fear that the only thing sponsorship
will
>do is give us someone to blame if the sponsored newbie is a pain...
>and who cares about blame?
>
>I know that is ntohat is intended, but that is what I fear.
>
>I would rather use Spyder's idea for this particular thing.
>
>Coyote

I like the idea of sponcership, just because it means someone has taken
the time to get to know the person being sponcered.  I wish to bring up
again the suggestion of a small questionaire being sent to the prospect
and posting the answers and letting us all comment.  This could be in
addition to sponcership or in place of it.  Regardless, I want everyone
to make it thier duty to SPEAK UP before someone is allowed on the list.
Let us all agree to at least that...

Just some random (and more serious) Yhoni thoughts....

~Yhoni~

ICQ # 35572191

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Digital Dragon <[e-mail]>
Subject: (hdproject) Note
Date: 30 Apr 1999 23:05:52 -0400 (EST)

There may be one by the name of Darkside wanting to sub to the other list.
I've not mentioned this one at all ad I'm not sure of him, save that he is
on the UOF/Avellana list as well.
Could someone point him to the public page as I don't know the URL for
that.

=Digi
                                                              _    _
Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser     o--------------------o  //___//
[e-mail]             | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ (
http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb   |/^    ^/(
ICQ: 21109302   IRC : Digi2          o--------------------/ ---- /;/
alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi                   /_____////
alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi                    `v---v'//
             "Dragons hold the true spirit of life."      `===='~
DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i--


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