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glencook-fans-digest        Sunday, May 5 2002        Volume 01 : Number 182




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 05:43:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

>I've always seen it used on the Candian Learn Channel - not that's
>there's much to see.  It hums a bit (sounded like a normal high powered
>printer or advanced copier) and then a bound book was produced.
>
    Sounds very cool.  I want one of those for my basement.  ;-)

>But one custom = one book loses the ecomeny of scale - which means the
>business model is still being researched.
>[...]
>The newspaper article mentioned the machine one bookstore was used only
>2 to 4 days a week - which means they had a capital item sitting there
>doing nothing.
>
    A good point.  Technology improvements may be able to offset the
economy of scale to eventually make single copies a "reasonable" cost.
BTW, did that article discuss the actual cost of the print-on-demand
books (for either customer or bookstore)?
    I think that the big cost will be in making the older books
available.  Perhaps the only hope is to keep all books produced from now
on available.  Until at least that much is available then it will be a
big flop since its main usefulness is in printing the harder-to-find
books, not stuff like Shakespeare that you can find anywhere.


>> >
>> >Call me a snob if you want, but I hope publishing companies retain their
>> >gatekeeping functions and well as their high editoral standards.  I can
>> >live with the occasional typo but when I read I expect a professional
>> >product, not something from a vanity press.
>> >
>>         Even if that means authors like Glen Cook can't get published?
>
>[Deleted example of how editing is important to authors]
>
>I've seen some of the things some of the epublishers are selling that I
>wouldn't bother downloading for free.  If I go on Joe's <insert
>franchise> fan fiction site I'll expect a certain level of work (at
>least spelled checked) and be surprised if has anything I'd pay for.
>
>If I invest time and money into a new novel based on <insert franchise>,
>I expect a much higher quality of work [...]
>
    I agree that the editing functions of publishers can be very
important.  They're not going to disappear just because we move to a
new model of online sales/distribution.


>
>I'd hate to a "Garrett Does Dallas (and her four sisters)" book
>epublished because something came up and Cook had to raise some money
>fast and banged out something in three days.  Without the aid of a good
>editor many authors can't produce at their best, and it's their fans who
>suffer.  I've seen a couple of high selling authors produce crap because
>people will buy anything with that name on it so the publishers don't
>bother to work on it.  (Note: their crap is a lot better than what many
>first time authors produce but it was crap for them.)
>
>Would we end up with The Annuals of the Black Company (reg pub - reg
>price) and The Exciting Serial Adventures of Croaker and his faithful
>sidekick One Eye (distributed but not edited, full of typos) for half
>price?  While costing less will I get the same level of reward for the
>time I invest?
>
    If an author pulled a stunt like that too often then he would
quickly lose his fans.  The authors who can operate well without an
editor will gain a reputation just as the ones do now with editors.
Those authors who cannot operate without an editor will either sell
very few books or have to resort to using an editing house.  These
editing houses will serve the function of the editing part of today's
publishers.  They will get a cut of the book's profits which will be
a good incentive to edit well.  They will also weed out the dreck
(or at least the unpopular) since it will only be worth their time to
edit something that will sell.  People will be able to look to "Tor
Editing House" and know that they're getting a quality work like
they've seen in the past.


>Then there's the business model - if RChilton Publishing Inc just
>distributes books why would people deal with it rather than SChew
>Publishing Inc?  What does such a publisher bring to the table that will
>allow them to keep their writers working for them?  How do I encourage
>Joe's Books to buy from my company and not yours if we both provide the
>same minimal level of service?  How do we both hang when a quality
>publisher finds a cheep way to port his better quality wares to our
>medium?
>
    In order for the model to work, all new books would have to be
made available in a "universal" electronic format.  This format would
allow either print-on-demand or online purchase/downloading (to read on
your e-book, computer, or PDA).  Joe's Books might stock some of the
most popular titles on the shelves (similar to today in some ways)
but would otherwise simply be a supplier of print-on-demand books.
They would have access to the global database of books available in
the universal format.  We would stop by the store, have them print out
"Sung in Blood" and take it home to read.  Places like Amazon.com would
be a nexus for buying the online versions of the books.  There would
probably only be a few "publishers" who act as a central repository
of the books in "universal" format.  They might take a small cut of
each sale.  Ideally this service would also be supplied by a place like
the Library of Congress so that all books can remain available forever.
    The other thing that would happen in parallel (and this is
already happening to a certain degree) is that there would
be ratings/reviews/editorials/comments about these books online.
Places like Amazon.com would collect these ratings so that you could
'browse' the bookstore and see what people thought about the books --
they already do this today.  If the book had terrible editing, the rating
would most likely be low.  The most popular authors (and those with a
powerful fan base) would gain a reputation through these various review
sites as being the ones who are most worthwhile.
    Soon there would be sites whose sole purpose is to collect the
ratings from all of the other sites.  Reputations would be built via word
of mouth just like they are today.  Readers would go to these sites to
decide on what to read next.
    There is still room in this model for the editors and even
the marketers (to place those book ads prominently on the review sites).
The advantage is that it puts everyone on more equal ground.  The brand
new author is available just as easily as Stephen King.  The only
advantage King has is his reputation (which is everything in this model).
Authors like Glen Cook would benefit because he could still sell those old
books to his rabid fans and his cost would be minimal (assuming he put
them into the universal format when he wrote them of course).  And once
he gained a good reputation through a series like the Black Company his
old books would still be available to new fans (unlike today).    Heck,
despite not having his books in the "universal" format even Glen might
benefit since a few rabid fans could take his books (with his permission
of course!) and convert them to universal format.  I'm sure there would
be a groundswell of books made available this way just like people today
are taking their time to make books available in various formats for PDAs.


>Those are the questions that have to be answered before anyone will put
>serious ventrue into the model - especially with the internet bubble
>still on everyone's mind.
>
    It is certainly a chicken and egg problem.  The publishers are
the obvious candidates to get it started since they have the money and
the know-how, but they are deathly afraid of what it will do to their
business.  Instead, it will be a very gradual process and one day many
of the old-style publishers will wake up to find that the very ground
has shifted underneath them.

    I know these are long posts, but I think that they are on
topic since these kinds of issues will directly affect authors like Glen
Cook in the coming years.  I have hope that he can take advantage of them.

                Steve



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 06:05:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

>
>Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian
>publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and
>it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too.
>

    That's very interesting.  I wonder if there are numbers on
the percentages of downloads vs. sales and so on.  Also, are the
Russian publishers making a profit?

                Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 17:03:18 +0400
From: "APZK" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

> >
> >Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian
> >publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and
> >it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too.
> >
>
> That's very interesting.  I wonder if there are numbers on
> the percentages of downloads vs. sales and so on.  Also, are the
> Russian publishers making a profit?

Hmm, I think that there are some psychological diference between russian
readers and US readers. There are more readers in Russia than in US, and so,
if  I don't want to buy book, I can take book at my friend, even if I can't
download it. Otherwise, if I like this book, I buy it anyway. I downloading
only these books which are not possible to buy. Why I did it? First, it is
not pleasent to read book from display ( and not health-giving for eyes). Of
course, I can print this book on my printer... but it will not be cheaper
than buying the book Second, it will be pleasent to have all book of my
favorite author at my bookshelf. Other reason, why russian publishers don't
afraid to publish books in www, is there are not many peoples in Russia have
access to internet at home. And last, books in Russia cheaper than in US.


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 12:09:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

"There are more readers in Russia than in US" - are you so sure about
that ? Who conducted that research and where the results have been
published ? Are you talking about the overall literate part of the
populace or readers of some particular author/genre ?
Or maybe it's just part of general innate knowledge, rather like
"Russia is a motherland of elephants" ?

Cheers,
Igor

On Sat, 4 May 2002, APZK wrote:

> > >
> > >Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian
> > >publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and
> > >it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too.
> > >
> >
> > That's very interesting.  I wonder if there are numbers on
> > the percentages of downloads vs. sales and so on.  Also, are the
> > Russian publishers making a profit?
>
> Hmm, I think that there are some psychological diference between russian
> readers and US readers. There are more readers in Russia than in US, and so,
> if  I don't want to buy book, I can take book at my friend, even if I can't
> download it. Otherwise, if I like this book, I buy it anyway. I downloading
> only these books which are not possible to buy. Why I did it? First, it is
> not pleasent to read book from display ( and not health-giving for eyes). Of
> course, I can print this book on my printer... but it will not be cheaper
> than buying the book Second, it will be pleasent to have all book of my
> favorite author at my bookshelf. Other reason, why russian publishers don't
> afraid to publish books in www, is there are not many peoples in Russia have
> access to internet at home. And last, books in Russia cheaper than in US.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:15:00 -0500
From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Actually, what you describe is very much like the US.  Some publishers
like Baen Books have realized this and have found that putting books on
websites does not decrease sales of paper copies. Speaking for myself, I
don't mind reading a few sample chapters online but reading an entire
book online is just plain uncomfortable.  Give me paper book and an easy
chair or a hammock every time.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of APZK
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:03 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

> >
> >Most books in Russia published in free online libraries. Russian
> >publishers and authors don't afraid that. If I read book on-line and
> >it's like me, I buy it. And most russian readers do it too.
> >
>
> That's very interesting.  I wonder if there are numbers on
> the percentages of downloads vs. sales and so on.  Also, are the
> Russian publishers making a profit?

Hmm, I think that there are some psychological diference between russian
readers and US readers. There are more readers in Russia than in US, and
so,
if  I don't want to buy book, I can take book at my friend, even if I
can't
download it. Otherwise, if I like this book, I buy it anyway. I
downloading
only these books which are not possible to buy. Why I did it? First, it
is
not pleasent to read book from display ( and not health-giving for
eyes). Of
course, I can print this book on my printer... but it will not be
cheaper
than buying the book Second, it will be pleasent to have all book of my
favorite author at my bookshelf. Other reason, why russian publishers
don't
afraid to publish books in www, is there are not many peoples in Russia
have
access to internet at home. And last, books in Russia cheaper than in
US.


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 11:55:51 -0500
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

(warning: vague generalisation follows)
Well, Russians have a reputation for being a literate people (remember, the
communists subsidised book production to encourage reading) and Americans,
unfortunately, have a reputation for not wanting to read (I work at an
academic library and even our students resist picking up a book, preferring
to be spoon-fed the material via the net  and TV sound bites--I can imagine
what things are like in 'the real world'). I once read an informal survey
of professionals in America in which well over half admitted to not having
read a book for entertainment since leaving college. About a third admitted
to having no fiction books in their homes. Of course, we all know the value
of anecdotal evidence. Just thought it was interesting.

And yet, with the exception of my brother, all of the people I know are the
type that consume fiction at a prodigious rate and will read the back of the
cereal box when all other reading material is exhausted. I have to assume
that you all fall into this category--else why would we be members of this
group, eh?

In my one encounter with Glen Cook back in '96 he described himself as being
one of those guys who read everything. He named a wide and varied list of
topics he was interested in.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Igor Filippov [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:10 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand


"There are more readers in Russia than in US" - are you so sure about
that ? Who conducted that research and where the results have been
published ? Are you talking about the overall literate part of the
populace or readers of some particular author/genre ?
Or maybe it's just part of general innate knowledge, rather like
"Russia is a motherland of elephants" ?

Cheers,
Igor

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 17:44:21 -0300
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Steve Chew wrote:
>
>         I know these are long posts, but I think that they are on
> topic since these kinds of issues will directly affect authors like Glen
> Cook in the coming years.  I have hope that he can take advantage of them.
>

Note - since people aren't joining in this discussion I just replied
privately to this post.  If anyone wants to see the discussion I'll post
the reply to this is list.

Richard

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Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 16:45:35 -0500
From: Stacey Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Guest Speaker

Damndamndamn!

I missed the Glen Cook night at the St. Charles SF/F Society, Thursday
night.  I didn't think to check the calendar before the weekend--of
course, this time of year (right before finals, just after having given
the last regular exam of the semester) I don't normally have time to
take an entire evening off, in any case *sigh*

Steve

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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:53:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Guest Speaker

>
>Damndamndamn!
>
>I missed the Glen Cook night at the St. Charles SF/F Society, Thursday
>night.  I didn't think to check the calendar before the weekend--of
>course, this time of year (right before finals, just after having given
>the last regular exam of the semester) I don't normally have time to
>take an entire evening off, in any case *sigh*
>
    Sorry to hear that.  :(  Did anyone on the list make it?

                Steve


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Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 22:59:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

    Just FYI, Richard and I have taken the Print On Demand discussion
offline since we weren't sure there was much interest in it on the list.
For those who are interested drop me an email and I'll include you in on
the discussion.  If a lot of people show interest we'll put it back on
the mailing list.

                Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:47:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

>
>    Just FYI, Richard and I have taken the Print On Demand discussion
>offline since we weren't sure there was much interest in it on the list.
>For those who are interested drop me an email and I'll include you in on
>the discussion.  If a lot of people show interest we'll put it back on
>the mailing list.
>
    Whoops, just noticed that Richard already said that...  <blush>.

    To try for some Glen Cook content:  Has anyone heard word about
Cook's thriller?  Has a publisher shown interest?

                Steve

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Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 00:33:02 -0600
From: Eric Herrmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Info

The April mail archives have been posted to the website.

Russia:
    Omnibus  with  novels "Passage At Arms" ("Reyd") and "The Dragon never
sleeps" ("Drakon ne spit nikogda") to be published by AST in June.

Hungary:
    "The Black Company" and "Shadows Linger" have both been published. Not
particularly recently, but I just found out about them. The covers aren't
too bad.

- --

This mailing list is sponsored by The Glen Cook Fan Page at:
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/ >.

The mailing list archives and instructions of how to subscribe or
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<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Mail/glencook-fans-FAQ.txt >.

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- --
Eric Herrmann
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>


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Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 00:15:00 +0400
From: "APZK" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand

Hmm... Maybe that research was conducted, it seems to me that I've read
about it in some newspaper, but I not sure. As Roger Horky said, Russians
have a reputation for being a literate people. Hence, it is not only my
opinion. I don't know, why it so. Maybe it is "general innate knowledge",
but I think that there are some reasons for think so. But I think that now
Russia is becoming not so literate country... but I hope that I'm wrong.

P.S.
Igor, are you Russian? Where are you living and where are you from?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: (glencook-fans) Print on Demand


> "There are more readers in Russia than in US" - are you so sure about
> that ? Who conducted that research and where the results have been
> published ? Are you talking about the overall literate part of the
> populace or readers of some particular author/genre ?
> Or maybe it's just part of general innate knowledge, rather like
> "Russia is a motherland of elephants" ?
>
> Cheers,
> Igor




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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #182
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