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glencook-fans-digest      Friday, August 18 2000      Volume 01 : Number 018




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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:03:27 -0500
From: Mike Martin <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: RE: (glencook-fans) SPOILER deaths in SOLDIERS

I gotta agree with this one. Heck, If I were Howler, that's how I would have
done it.

mike


- -----Original Message-----
From: PrimalChrome [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 9:16 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: RE: (glencook-fans) SPOILER deaths in SOLDIERS


SPOILER













>>What if the Howler's power was so rooted in his handicap that when
Shivetya "cured" him, it stripped him of some of his power. It would be just
like him. The golem doesn't care what happens in the different worlds.<<

They stated specifically that Howler's condition resulted after he was
already an accomplished sorceror.  But with the well staged deaths that have
happened throughout the series (specifically by Taken) makes me note two
things:

1.  It was dark when the shadows were killing.  No one SAW Howler bite the
bullet.
2.  One ordinary, mundane soldier survived, and there wasn't a very powerful
(and unpanicked) sorceror there to confirm that wasn't just an illusion.

I know it's a stretch...but....Howler had to be planning for an escape since
he was healed.  Wouldn't he expect the confusion of attacking the Great
General to be a good chance...the Shadows just adding to it's perfection.



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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:02:24 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!

In a message dated 8/14/00 10:43:42 AM, [e-mail] writes:

>Well, instead of over-reacting to the means (comparsion with Jordan) to
>this particular end (the nature of the singular qualities of Cook), how
>about discussing the thesis I advanced for the specific nature of the
>difference in Cook's cycle, to wit, the use of an organization of
>changing personnel as the protagonist that carries the moral burden of
>the cycle?

Why not? Because I'm not a literary deconstructionist or literary critic,
but since you ask I will try. (Oh, and I don't think I over-reacted, maybe
I was a little more blunt than need be, but no where near overreaction).

Anyway, back to the highbrow English hashing. I would have to question
how you are using the word "cycle."

cy*cle [1] (noun)

[Middle English cicle, from Late Latin cyclus, from Greek kyklos circle,
wheel, cycle -- more at WHEEL]

First appeared 14th Century

 1 : an interval of time during which a sequence of a recurring succession of
events or phenomena is completed

 2 a : a course or series of events or operations that recur regularly and
usu. lead back to the starting point

   b : one complete performance of a vibration, electric oscillation, current
alternation, or other periodic process

   c : a permutation of a set of ordered elements in which each element takes
the place of the next and the last becomes first

 3 : a circular or spiral arrangement: as

   a : an imaginary circle or orbit in the heavens

   b : WHORL

   c : RING 10

 4 : a long period of time : AGE

 5 a : a group of poems, plays, novels, or songs treating the same theme

   b : a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a
legendary hero

Most of the definitions above fit better with Jordan than Cook (in my
understanding of the second author and ignorance of the first). But I'd like
you
to define it a little further befor I make an incorrect assumption. Only the
fifth
definition really fits Cook and only the second addresses your next point.

>Does the company, actually, fit the literary trope of a protagonist on a
>journey of moral discovery?   If so, is this actually a unique invention
>of Cook's, or does it have literary antecedents?  Is it a successful
>device on its own merits, or does the cycle work in spite of, not
>because of, this feature?

First, I would say that the Company does meet the criterion of being the
protagonist, but I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery.

If anyone in the company has learned anything it would have to be Croaker
and he does not stay with the company, so he might be the exception to
the group protagonist. Most anyone else who could have learned from this
journey was killed, but the company still goes on. Is it any better off
morally than when it left Beryl?

The group protagonist is not a thing unique to Cook. I've brought up Cormac
McCarthy's _Blood Meridian_ on this group befor (I won't rehash it). It is
my belief that this is the closest to the BC you can get by another author.
It has a character I would be willing to put up against any Taken (he'd show
Soulcatcher a good time, put her up wet, and leave her wondering when he'd
be back) and it has a character that is as "innocent" and out of place as
Croaker. Good book, and it does meet your criteria of a group protagonist.

I do not think that the idea of a group protagonist works as well as Cook
would have liked. Perhaps in the North, but by the time we get to the South
we care too much about many of the characters to give equal time to the
group as a whole. Hell, Water Sleeps might as well have been called "Sleepy
Uses a Small Portion of a Decimated Company to Kick Ass in a Very Scooby-
Doo Way." Most of the books of the South abandon the convention of the
group protagonist and you start to get a lot more history, emotions, and
personal feats of daring-do.

Face it, had Croaker bit it somewhere around the end of the White Rose
there wouldn't be any books of the South. Do you even think any of the
characters would still hang around each other? At some point the
primary characters subsumed the minor ones and the camera from the
trenches turned into the manipulations of the powers-that-be. By the
end of Water Sleeps you have a private that worked her way up the ranks
in charge, but you no longer get a view of the Company as a whole. Do
people even like their captain? Did they like Croaker when he was?
We had a better feel for the characters as a whole in the North,
once south we get brief glimpses of some, but mostly we just follow
one guy around as he flies from battle to battle or world to world.


****Spoilers for SL if you continue*****









By the end of SL did you even care what happened to the company? Or did you
just want to know what happened to Croaker, Lady, and the rest? I can't even
remember the guy who took over the Company's name (junior). I really don't
think the company was anything special by the end of these books, at that
point
it was going entirely on momentum, history, and reputation. But the people in
charge can't even read the annals, they don't intend to return to Khatovar,
and
none are originals or even connected to those that were.

I've always admired these books for the fact that they seem braver than most.
The author can kill characters whenever the fiction requires it without
sacrificing
the main protagonist, but the longer he kept a character around the less able
he was able to do it. In my opinion, by killing away like Cook did in the end
of SL
he's effectively killed the Company. Those that are left will probably disband
around harvest time or kick some warlord ass and set themselves up for
good, but they won't be the company regardless.

Well, I think I've addressed your questions, but if I missed any points let me
know. Just don't use the phrase "sign and cosign," and we'll get along fine.
But please do define cycle.

christopher....




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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:10:12 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) WTT for With Mercy Toward None

This is the last of the novels that I need.  I have four books, autographed,
that I'd be willing to trade any *two* for Mercy.

Black Company
Shadows Linger
Cold Copper Tears
An Ill Fate Marshalling

Please contact me privately at [e-mail], and thanks!

Pete

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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:45:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILERS The Company as Protagonist

>
>First, I would say that the Company does meet the criterion of being the
>protagonist, but I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
>of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
>journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery.
>
>If anyone in the company has learned anything it would have to be Croaker
>and he does not stay with the company, so he might be the exception to
>the group protagonist. Most anyone else who could have learned from this
>journey was killed, but the company still goes on. Is it any better off
>morally than when it left Beryl?
>
    I'd say it is.  It now fights for what it thinks is "right"
rather than doing the bidding of another without question.  Not that
what the BC thinks of as "right" is all that nice...


>
>Face it, had Croaker bit it somewhere around the end of the White Rose
>there wouldn't be any books of the South. Do you even think any of the
>characters would still hang around each other? At some point the
>
    Certainly Croaker was the reason for traveling toward Khatovar.
The annals basically come out and say it directly.


>primary characters subsumed the minor ones and the camera from the
>trenches turned into the manipulations of the powers-that-be. By the
>
    We never really saw the grunt's perspective.  We just saw
the annalist's.  When the annalist was powerful within the company
that's the viewpoint we got.


>end of Water Sleeps you have a private that worked her way up the ranks
>in charge, but you no longer get a view of the Company as a whole. Do
>people even like their captain? Did they like Croaker when he was?
>We had a better feel for the characters as a whole in the North,
>once south we get brief glimpses of some, but mostly we just follow
>one guy around as he flies from battle to battle or world to world.
>
    We did that in the North too, but the annalist just didn't
happen to be as close to the BC powers in the north.  We only got
a feel for those characters which the annalist knew.


>
>By the end of SL did you even care what happened to the company? Or did you
>just want to know what happened to Croaker, Lady, and the rest? I can't even
>
    Are you saying that you cared more for the BC in the North as
a company, disregarding the characters you got to see through Croaker's
eyes?  The annalist made us care about who he/she cared about.  It's
possible that Croaker was closer to the guys in the north due to his
position than those in the south.  That closeness may be what is coming
across.


>remember the guy who took over the Company's name (junior). I really don't
>think the company was anything special by the end of these books, at that
>point it was going entirely on momentum, history, and reputation. But the
>people in charge can't even read the annals, they don't intend to return
>to Khatovar, and none are originals or even connected to those that were.
>
    That was kind of the point wasn't it?  The BC has always carried
on with or without a particular individual.  Sometimes its history (the
past annals) was important to those in charge, sometimes they weren't.
Only Croaker made the company into the Khatovar goal-oriented machine.
He also made it realize that it can choose its own path, if it wants to,
though at no small cost.  That might be it's greatest discovery.


>I've always admired these books for the fact that they seem braver than most.
>The author can kill characters whenever the fiction requires it without
>sacrificing
>the main protagonist, but the longer he kept a character around the less able
>he was able to do it. In my opinion, by killing away like Cook did in the end
>of SL
>he's effectively killed the Company. Those that are left will probably disband
>around harvest time or kick some warlord ass and set themselves up for
>good, but they won't be the company regardless.
>
    I didn't get that feeling.  I think Suvrin and Tobo and those
who have no where else to go (who seem to always make up the core of the
BC) will continue on.  Perhaps successfully, perhaps not.

                Steve


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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:46:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Goblin a Shadowmaster?

Right before the battle at the Stair of Tear, Goblin and One-Eye mix it up a bit. Consider this...

"They were off, and damned be the fool who got in their way. Shadows scattered round One-Eye, wriggling across the earth like a thousand hasty serpents."

Now, before you jump all over me, I know that Goblin and One-Eye's work is mostly illusion, but you've got to admit, it's a great case of...

foreshadowing!

Boo! Boo! Boo!

Win

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Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:13:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!

Christopher,

I think my usage "cycle" was pretty clearly right where you put it:

"a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a
legendary hero"

I make bold to use the word "cycle" for something which pretends to be
legendary (as the Black Company is in the fictional world it inhabits),
rather than something which really is legendary in the real world; but the
literary category seems to me to fit.

"I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery."

I was using "journey of moral discovery" in a broadened sense of the word
"moral", meaning "having to do with the subjects appreciation of its the
subject's place in the universe".  Thus, it could just as easily be
immoral or amoral as "moral" in the narrow sense "fitting to a prevailing
ethical standard".

It strikes me that that sense of its place in the world is very much an
important element in the whole saga--a sense which does, indeed, change
considerably over the course of years.  In Beryl, the Company is nothing
more than a group hiring out to the highest local bidder, with not even a
fully operational sense of staying bought.  In the course of the the years
in service to the Lady, the officer corps rethinks this position and,
remarkably, is able to sell it to the rest (well, to the long-term brothers
who manage to escape from Juniper):  They worry about whose side they are on,
in terms of which side will be better for the world, should it win.

"The Company" consists solely of a handful, having participated fully in that
decision, by the time they head south.  The reformulated company in the south
is shaped largely in Croaker's moral vision--a strong sense of connection to
the history of the company, stronger than what had prevailed in the north.
Most importantly, Croaker's vision of a journey--of going on to Khatovar--is
accepted by the Company; and, what is more, it is willing to thrash objectively
bad guys to get there, and to visit some measure of vengeance on anyone else
who stands in their way or betrays them, but it is has no conception of selling
out to just anyone.  The war against the Shadowmasters is perceived not just
as pushing through "those guys in our way", but as positive good that they are
accomplishing for the people of the region.

The Company under Sleepy is formulated largely around revenge and saving the
Captured--a different moral vision than has heretofore motivated the Company,
more narrowly focused than in the preceding years.  There is a change yet
again, in the years spent in other planes, which we see only out the corners
of our eyes, since we follow more the actions of the rescued Old Crew than we
do of Sleepy's command.  But the change is very evident.  It has two
components (not altogethr compatible, and this may be a structural weakness
in the last book):

1) Saving The World (from the shadows off the plane)--and this means Sleepy's
and Croaker's world, not necessarily any other

2) Going Aviking--a raid in force on another world (Sleepy's), followed by
retreat home.

The sense of moral journey is not entirely invested in the Company; the
most interesting journey, and the only one that is satisfyingly progressive
is that of Croaker (though Lady's is interesting as well).  The Company wanders
around in moral space, ending up perhaps not all that far from where it was
when we entered the saga--but it has gone through enormous changes along the
way, and it shapes the moral climate in which the officers must operate; it
provides the backdrop upon which the quandaries of the officers are played out.

Yes, I *do* care about the future of the Company--I want to know why they
follow their officers and what they're going to do when harvest time comes,
if they will continue in a sense of vigilant guard and self-assumed duty of
protectors of the means of future commerce, or if they will feel more disposed
to raid away from home and just be "the guys everyone is afraid of".  That is
the moral question left hanging.

Steve


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End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #18
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