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fractint-digest         Monday, April 30 2001         Volume 01 : Number 554




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:17:02 -0500
From: DeBow Freed <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: C-FOTD 18-04-01 (Fractured Fractal [6])

Cheers to Morgan from the peanut gallery, too.

"Morgan L. Owens" wrote:

> At 23:51 25/04/2001, Andrew Coppin wrote:
>
> >PS. Hey Morgan... What the hell _are_ "sheets in the Riemann surface"?
>
> One of the hassles involved with many functions is that they are many-
> valued (and hence, strictly speaking, not functions at all). Even the
> humble square root is guilty of this - z^(1/2) usually has two values.
> And as for log(z), or arcsin(z)...
>
> What would be nice is if there were some way of turning these many-
> valued functions into single-valued functions. Bermhard Riemann came up
> with a geometrical stunt that did just this by replacing the complex
> plane with a suitable generalisation (mathematicians just loooove to
> generalise things).
>
> His idea was to separate each value of the function by placing it on a
> separate "sheet", which on its own looks like an entire complex plane.
> For example, if the values of z^(1/2) for a given z were a_z and -a_z,
> then a_z would go on one sheet and -a_z would go on another. Then you
> could take one sheet and say that the values on it are _the_ values of
> the function. To drop down into real arithmetic for a second, this is
> analogous to saying that _the_ values of the square root function are
> the nonnegative ones.
>
> A function may require more than one sheet. The log(z) function, as
> immortalised in the MandelbrotBC formula, has an infinite number of
> sheets, since log(z) usually produces an infinite number of values for a
> given z (if w is one such value, then so are w+2pi, w+4pi, w+6pi...,
> among others).
>
> But of course there is more to it than just slapping down extra layers
> on the complex plane like tracing paper. For a start, there are often
> points where the sheets merge (such as the point z=0 for the function
> z^(1/2)). Also significant is the question of where the function moves
> from one sheet to another. After all, if this is supposed to be a nice
> continuous function, you don't want to introduce a nasty discontinuous
> artefact by suddenly jumping from one sheet to another.
>
> So you want to stitch all these sheets together in some way into a
> single continuous surface, and it is exactly this that Riemann
> described.
>
> Let's take the log function as an example, mainly because that way the
> MandelbrotBC formula is available to play with. The log function goes
> blecchh at z=0, so we'll stick with nonzero complex numbers. As I said,
> if log(z)=w, then log(z)=w+2npi, for any integer n. So w and w+2pi,
> w+4pi, w-2pi, w-4pi, w+158pi, ... are all on separate sheets (which we
> can index by n, if we are so inclined). The surface is sort of helical.
> We start on the ground floor (n=0), and we can walk around the origin
> until we've made a complete circle, whereupon we find ourselves on the
> first floor (n=1). Another complete circle and we're on the second floor
> (n=2). Going the other way from the ground floor we find ourselves on
> the first basement level (n=-1), then the second basement (n=-2), and so
> on in that direction.
>
> But where precisely do we change floors? What the Riemann surface shows
> is that such a question is more a matter of convention than anything to
> do with the property of the log() function itself. We could draw a line
> out along the positive real axis (on each sheet) and say "Here is where
> we change sheets", but we could just as easily draw it along the negative
> real axis, or either imaginary axis or anything in between. Wherever you
> place it, you can extract a sheet out of the surface that covers the
> entire complex plane (except of course for the origin) by cutting along
> your chosen axis on any sheet and an adjacent sheet.
>
> It should be pretty obvious that these lines I've been talking about are
> the branch cuts. Conventionally, the log() function is cut along the
> negative real axis. So is the square root function, for that matter,
> while the arctangent function is cut along the negative imaginary axis
> starting at 0-i and extending downwards towards -infinity.
>
> To provide a bit of a summary, I'll describe the Riemann surface of the
> z^(1/2) function. Since this function is at most two-valued (the only
> exception being of course z=0, which has one value), the Riemann surface
> is made by stitching two sheets together. Laying them atop each other,
> we see that they have to actually meet at z=0 (because they have the
> same value there). Now, what do the two values of z^(1/2) have in
> common? They're negations of each other, of course, which on the complex
> plane is equivalent to rotation about the origin of 180 degrees (or
> more appropriately, pi radians). So if we were to start at one value and
> walk around the origin and arrive back at our starting point, we'd
> find ourselves on the other sheet. Another walk around and we really
> will be back where we started. We can manage this by cutting the sheets
> as follows. Starting at the origin, we cut a slit out to infinity
> (conventionally as I mentioned above), join the lower edge of the lower
> sheet to the upper edge of the upper sheet, and the upper edge of the
> lower sheet to the lower edge of the upper sheet. Don't worry if this
> violates your three-dimensional imagery - it's not a stunt that can be
> pulled off in 3D without the optical illusion of the two sheets
> apparently interpenetrating. And there's the surface. The (illusory)
> crossover line along the axis can be waved and wiggled about all over
> the complex plane - as long as one end remains rooted at the origin -
> and every such wave and wiggle can be used to define a branch cut for
> separating the surface back into sheets again.
>
> Its precisely the positioning of the branch cut for the log() function
> that is explored by the MandelbrotBC formula. If you build an animation
> where you steadily increase the branch cut parameter, you can almost see
> the spiral staircase effect as you climb higher and higher.
>
> See also:http://library.wolfram.com/examples/riemannsurface/
>
> Morgan L. Owens
> "I _had_ to ask..."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:32:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Muth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  29-04-01  (Veil-Nebula [6])

Classic FOTD -- April 29, 2001 (Rating 6)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

In the constellation of Cygnus, which is directly overhead in
the summer months at a latitude of 39N, there is a delicate
nebula, the remnants of a supernova explosion that took place
some 25,000 years ago.  It is called the Veil nebula.

The delicate traceries surrounding today's midget remind me so
much of that celestial sight that I named the image "Veil
Nebula".  After naming it, I gave it a rating of 6, since it's
not at all a bad picture, though the somewhat excessively
intense colors keep it from a higher rating.

The image once again takes advantage of the MandelbrotBC
formula, this time applied to the Z^2.003+C Mandeloid.  This is
the fractal with that most curious rectangular object in the
Julia set of the East Valley area of the prominent midget on the
infinitely-divided negative stem.  I found today's scene when I
went looking for that object in the JuliaBC formula, and failing
to find it, turned instead to the MandelbrotBC formula to have
some fun with the Mandel aspect.

Using Fractint's evolver feature, I located the section with the
most interesting branch cuts and started exploring.  Within 10
minutes I had found a whole nest of midgets just past the midget
on the stem, a stem which in this case points in the positive
direction.  Today's midget is a minor member of that nest.

With a render time of just over 2 minutes, the parameter file is
probably the best way to view the scene.  But for those who
enjoy travel, the file of the GIF image will soon be available
on the WWW at:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

and at:

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

The weather today, fractal weather that is, was near perfect.
Only a slightly chilly temperature of 65F (18C) kept it from
being absolutely perfect.  The fractal cats helped me enjoy the
day by watching me trim the grass, keeping safely out of the way
whenever the mower drew near.

Due to too much enjoyment, I had little time for idle
philosophical pondering.  I ponder best while working on dull
routine jobs or while waiting for fractals to generate.  I
ponder very poorly while trimming lush wet grass with a lawn
mower with a blade in need of sharpening.

But the next FOTD is only 27 hours away, 39 hours if I don't
post it until Monday morning.  That is ample time in which to
ponder.  To see whether or not I actually ponder, check then.

Until then, so long for now!


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

Veil_Nebula        { ; time=0:02:12.54--SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=branchct.frm
  formulaname=MandelbrotBC passes=1 float=y
  center-mag=1.78204/0.00403291/4113.286/1/-99.999
  params=2.003/0/1040.877965636158/0 maxiter=1500
  inside=0 logmap=33 periodicity=10
  colors=000J0EL0EN0HP0KR0NU0QW0TY0W_0Zb0ad0df0gf0jh\
  0mh1pk5sk8unCwnHznJzpNzpRzsWzs_zudzuhzwnzwszwuzupz\
  skzphzndzkbwhYsfWndRhbPd_L_YJWYFPWCLU8HR7CP38N15L0\
  1J00H00F00C00C00A00A00A10A70AC0AJ3AP5AW8AbCAhHApJA\
  wNAzRAzUNzdYznhzzuzzzzzzwzzwzzuzzuzzuzzszzswzsuwps\
  wpnwpkunhunfunbsk_skYskWphUphPphNnfLnfJnfHhdAfb7db\
  3b_0__0WY0UY0RW0PW0NU0LU0PP0RL0UJ0WF0YC0_80b70d30f\
  10h00k00p00s00u00w00z00z00z00z00z00z00z00z00z00z00\
  z00z00z00w00u30s73sC8pHCnNHkRNhYRfYWdYbbYf_Yk_YpdY\
  hfYdhYYkYUnYNpYJsYCuY8wY3zY0zY0zY0zY0zY0zY0zY0zY0z\
  Y0zY0kY0WY0FY01Y00Y00Y00Y05Y0AY0HY0WYCkNRzCfz3wz0z\
  z0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0\
  zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz\
  0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0z\
  z0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0\
  zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0zz0z
  }

frm:MandelbrotBC   { ; Formula by Andrew Coppin etal
  e=p1
  p=real(p2)+PI
  q=2*PI*trunc(p/(2*PI))
  r=real(p2)-q
  Z=C=Pixel:
    Z=log(Z)
    IF(imag(Z)>r)
      Z=Z+flip(2*PI)
    ENDIF
    Z=exp(e*(Z+flip(q)))+C
  |Z|<100
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:40:55 +0200
From: Guy Marson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) evolver bug?

Hi Fractinters,

in an .frm working with 4 functions (fn1-fn4) I need to play with fn1-fn3
but not with fn4. Fn4 is set to 'sinh' and has to stay so. Starting the
Evolver with the 'fn4=no' option (but set to 'sinh' in the Z-screen) all
the pictures are generated with 'fn4=sin' except the first one..

One more observation: I think that the first disabled function (in the
evolver) is always set to sin and not to the wanted function. E.g.:
fn1=random fn2=no fn3=no fn4=random then fn2 is set to 'sin' by the Evolver..

Is it a feature or a bug?


cheers,


Guy



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:01:58 -0500
From: "Jonathan Osuch" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) evolver bug?

Guy,

> Is it a feature or a bug?

I'll have a look after I've finished uploading the various files for
20.1.08.

Jonathan



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:54:55 +0100
From: "Chris Curnow" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Acknowledgments due?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0D107.CA2B8580
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been interested in the various discussions regarding the =
proprietary rights to fractal images.  Poor old, (young), Zorba the Hutt =
who spent hours generating high resolution versions of fractals to =
delight others with slower machines, is then shamed into deleting them =
because they are the 'property' of the esteemed Sylvie Gallet, (may her =
.map files continue to delight us all).  On the other hand Jim Muth, =
absolutely correctly, goes to some pains to ensure that the MandelbrotBC =
formula is marked as 'belonging' to Andrew Coppin et al.

Surely fractal images, in the raw so to speak, are 'found' objects.  =
Acknowledgment is due to the creator of the formula; be it Mandelbrot =
himself.  The colouring scheme, however, is an aesthetic operation with =
two functions.  Firstly it is needed to display some features of the =
'raw image' which may not be obvious, and secondly it serves to make the =
object a pleasing picture, (a piece of artwork).  So we all generate or =
download Jim's images every day looking for an aesthetic experience, the =
maths is fun but the image is king.  I have tried to better Jim's colour =
scheme usually with abysmal results, so Jim you're an artist (even if =
your Mum doesn't think so! 'C-FOTD 20-4-01')  On the other hand I've =
very often found a 'more interesting' area in one of Jim's FOTDs.  (That =
is, more interesting to me) - not something new that I have 'created'.

As for the 'new' sinusoidal map generation utility posted by Rupert =
Millard on 26th April.  A note of acknowledgment that he received the =
source code for the basic algorithm from me on 4th April would have been =
courteous, here I *do* have a proprietary interest :-)   I'm working on =
using the Bezier function to define the three R, G, & B curves but the =
maths is a bit steep so this utility program may be some time coming.  =
Any VB6 programmers interested in joining in the endeavour can contact =
me direct and I'll send the source code, (and problem list!), so far.

Regards,
Chris Curnow
[e-mail]


- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0D107.CA2B8580
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I have been interested in=20
the various discussions regarding the proprietary rights to fractal =

images.  Poor old, (young), Zorba the Hutt who spent hours =
generating high=20
resolution versions of fractals to delight others with slower machines, =
is then=20
shamed into deleting them because they are the 'property' of the =
esteemed Sylvie=20
Gallet, (may her .map files continue to delight us all).  On the =
other hand=20
Jim Muth, absolutely correctly, goes to some pains to ensure that the=20
MandelbrotBC formula is marked as 'belonging' to Andrew Coppin et=20
al.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Surely fractal images, in the =
raw so to=20
speak, are 'found' objects.  Acknowledgment is due to the creator =
of the=20
formula; be it Mandelbrot himself.  The colouring scheme, however, =
is an=20
aesthetic operation with two functions.  Firstly it is needed to =
display=20
some features of the 'raw image' which may not be obvious, and secondly =
it=20
serves to make the object a pleasing picture, (a piece of =
artwork).  So we=20
all generate or download Jim's images every day looking for an aesthetic =

experience, the maths is fun but the image is king.  I have tried =
to better=20
Jim's colour scheme usually with abysmal results, so Jim you're an =
artist (even=20
if your Mum doesn't think so! 'C-FOTD 20-4-01')  On the other hand =
I've=20
very often found a 'more interesting' area in one of Jim's FOTDs.  =
(That=20
is, more interesting to me) - not something new that I have=20
'created'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>As for the 'new' sinusoidal =
map=20
generation utility posted by Rupert Millard on 26th April.  A note =
of=20
acknowledgment that he received the source code for the basic algorithm =
from me=20
on 4th April would have been courteous, here I *do* have a proprietary=20
interest :-)   I'm working on using the Bezier function =
to define=20
the three R, G, & B curves but the maths is a bit steep so this =
utility=20
program may be some time coming.  Any VB6 programmers interested in =
joining=20
in the endeavour can contact me direct and I'll send the source code, =
(and=20
problem list!), so far.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Chris Curnow</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0D107.CA2B8580--


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:20:26 -0500
From: "Jonathan Osuch" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint version 20.1.08

Folks,

Fractint version 20.1.08 is now available at the developer's web site.
www.fractint.org

Features in this patch:
Added truecolor support to Fractint thanks to Bert Tyler.  While in a
  truecolor mode, the following features are disabled/changed:\
    Color Cycling\
    Palette Editor brings up the contents of the MAP directory\
    Saving the image still only produces a 256 color GIF\

  Removed Bert's truecolor test code used with the test fractal type.

  Updated Paul de Leeuw's contact information.

Jonathan



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:05:32 -0400
From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Acknowledgments due?

Hi Chris,

>> Poor old, (young), Zorba the Hutt who spent hours generating high
resolution versions of fractals to delight others with slower machines, i=
s
then shamed into deleting them because they are the 'property' of the
esteemed Sylvie Gallet, (may her .map files continue to delight us all). =

<<

Fractint and Ultra Fractal do not always generate identical images from t=
he
same par file. In this case, Sylvie generated the images with Fractint an=
d
posted Fractint pars.  Zorba generated the hi-res images with UF instead =
of
Fractint - they appeared differently (having a different texture)than
Sylvie originally generated - and so she had them removed mainly for that=

reason - they were no longer her images, and so Zorba's saying that they
were her images was inaccurate.  Had he generated them with Fractint, she=

may have approved, assuming that her permission was obtained first.  I
don't think Zorba was aware of the differences when he posted them.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:05:33 -0400
From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint version 20.1.08

Jonathan,

>> Fractint version 20.1.08 is now available at the developer's web site.=

>> Features in this patch:
>> Added truecolor support to Fractint thanks to Bert Tyler.  =


I presume that there is no way to save a true-color par file yet either.

Is there any mechanism yet for manipulating the true colors?

Lee

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:01:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Muth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  30-04-01  (A Ghostly Spectre [4])

Classic FOTD -- April 30, 2001 (Rating 4)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

Today's hasty fractal was created by the formula
2Z^(-2.1)-2Z^(-1.9)+(1/C).  I named it "A Ghostly Spectre" when
I noticed that the seahorse-like detail surrounding the midget
is clearly visible only when certain broad color palettes are
applied to the image.  With a narrow color scheme such as F2,
the detail vanishes and the image becomes a featureless screen
full of fractal sand.

The location of today's image is in an elephant trunk in the
East Valley area of a larger midget, which is resting in a
chaotic part of the parent fractal.

I rated the image at a 4.  This is all I could give to a fractal
that I found and colored with so little effort.  With a running
time of exactly 15 minutes, the parameter file might not be the
best way of viewing the image, which will be available for
download and viewing in an hour or so at:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

and at:

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

One of these days when things settle down, I'm going to gain
convenient access to ABPF, and resume posting the images there.
But so far I haven't had the chance to recover from the move of
Fractal Central auxiliary.

With sunny skies and a temperature of 68F (20C), the fractal
weather today was so good that I took the day off.  When I
returned, the cats scolded me for not being there to let them
out to enjoy the fine weather.  To soothe them, I gave them a
treat of tuna and promised to do better next time.

And speaking of next time, it will come in about 13 hours.
Until then, take care, and watch out for those fractal ghosts.


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

A_Ghostly_Spectre  { ; time=0:15:00.01--SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm
  formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1
  center-mag=+1.584484530091595/+1.150509782717139/7\
  774320/1/132.5 params=1/-2.1/-1/-1.9/1/300 float=y
  maxiter=1800 inside=0 logmap=205 periodicity=10
  colors=000i_zg_zg_zfYzfYzdYzdYzbWzbWzbWzaWzaVz_Vz_\
  VzYVzYTzXTzXTzSRzVTzVTzXTzXVzXVzYVzYVz_Wz_Wz_WzaWz\
  aYzbYzbYzbYzd_zd_zf_zf_zf`zg`zg`zi`zibzibzkbzkbzlc\
  zlczlczncznfznfzpfzphzqhzqhzqhzsizsizuizuizukzwkzw\
  kzxkzxnzxnzznzzozzpzzpzzqzzqzzszztzztzztzzwzzwzzwz\
  zxzzyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzxzzxzzvzzuzztzzszzpzzpzzpzzpzzn\
  zxnzxnzwnxumwumwsmusmsqksqkqpjpshsqfqpdpnbplank`ni\
  _lgZlfYkdXkbWiaVi_UgYTgXSfVRfSQdRPbPObONaMMaKL_JK_\
  JJYHIYFHXEGXCFVAEV8DS7CS6BR4AP29P18O07O07M07M07K07\
  K07J07J07H07H07F07H07F07F07F07F07E07E07E05E07C07C0\
  7C07C17C47A68A68A7BA8B8AD8CE8EE8FF7FF7HC7JE7KE7MG6\
  OG6PH6RK6RL4SO4VQ4XR4YU1_V1aY1b_1b`1db0fb0gc0if0kf\
  0lh0lh0ni0pk0qk0sm0um0wn0xp0xp0zr0zr0zs0zu0zu0zw0z\
  w0zx0zx0zx0zx0zx0zx0zx0zz0zz1zz1zz4zz4zz6zz6zz7zz7\
  zz8zz8zzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzz\
  AzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzAzzA
  }

frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth
a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2),
g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j,
k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel):
z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c,
|z| < l
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================


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Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:50:31 -0000
From: "Andrew Coppin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Linux Fractint

I don't know who did the Linux Fractint post, but HATS OFF TO THEM!

Yesterday, after wanting to have a Linux Fractint for AGES, I got someone to
download the source for me. I let him compile it, thinking it would be a
nightmare. The guy typed "make", half a million lines of text flew past, and
an executable appeared. He executed it, and it just worked.

I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself!

BTW, this was on an Athlon 1GHz machine. Once I reached arbitary precition
mode, it was *still* rapping off 2 lines per second! Man, I *want* his
machine!!!

Once again, a big thanks to whoever it was who made this thing!

Thanks.
Andrew.

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Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:12:43 -0400
From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Acknowledgments due?

Hi Chris,

>> Poor old, (young), Zorba the Hutt who spent hours generating high
>> resolution versions of fractals to delight others with slower machines=
,
>> is then shamed into deleting them because they are the 'property' of t=
he
>> esteemed Sylvie Gallet,

  I can't let you say that I _shamed_ him into deleting these images.  He=
re
is what I wrote:

<<<<<<<<<<<<
  All of the images are different from their Fractint version, and in lot=
s
of them, UF replaced the nice texture with banding so, I'd like you to
remove them or redo them with Fractint (maybe in a standard 1600x1200
format).
>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Cheers,

        - Sylvie

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Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:17:58 -0500
From: Programmer Dude <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: C-FOTD

Jim Muth wrote:

> When one is working with fractals, it is obvious that CPU speed is
> important.  I do not need to state the fact.  When I do state it, I am
> merely repeating the obvious.  I have no memory of stating that one
> should go out and spend money they cannot afford on a new computer,
> though I suppose it could be implied in my words.

FWIW, I've never gotten that impression from any of your FOTDs.  As you
say, it's self-evident that a faster machine == faster rendering, but
I've never gotten the impression you were egging us on in any way.

- --
|_ CJSonnack <[e-mail]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:52:36 +0100
From: "Chris Curnow" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) No hard feelings

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0D1C8.402980A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh dear!  I really put one of Jim's cats amongst the pigeons!
I owe Rupert Millard and Sylvie Gallet each a public apology. =20

Here it is Rupert.  I'm sorry for implying that you 'stole' anything. =20
But it's a real bummer when you spend umpty-tump hours trying to=20
design a decent user interface for a program written only to find a=20
similar program posted!  And, yes you're right; my program uses the=20
negative cos function to generate a sinusoidal curve.  (And it's not=20
as good an implementation as yours!)

I still think the Bezier function would transform these gradient type=20
of map generators.  Really no hard feelings from my side so I'll send=20
you the bit of source to your email address, (I may persuade you to=20
spend a few moments on the 'problems'!)

Sylvie, I didn't mean to imply that *you* were the one that shamed him.  =

(English is my native tongue but sometimes I have trouble with my =
worms!) =20
The point I was trying to make was that what Zorba had done, although=20
based on your work, was something different and therefore valid; and=20
yet, he felt that he should delete them.  The question still hangs =
there. =20
Why did he, or anybody, feel that his version was in any way 'inferior'=20
to the original?  Put it another way, how come Andy Warhole could=20
charge zillions for a picture of a can of Campbell's Soup?  Was the =
money=20
his, or the graphic designer who drew the original can label? =20

I suspect that Lee Skinner sums up the problem as I see it........

>Zorba generated the hi-res images with UF instead of
>Fractint - they appeared differently (having a different texture)than
>Sylvie originally generated - and so she had them removed mainly for =
that
>reason - they were no longer her images, and so Zorba's saying that =
they
>were her images was inaccurate.  Had he generated them with Fractint, =
she
>may have approved, assuming that her permission was obtained first.

Why ask for permission?  The images were different and "no longer her =
images"!
Zorba gave acknowledgement that the .par files had been produced by =
Sylvie=20
but he *did* feel that it was the right thing to delete them.  I really =
don't want=20
to put Zorba on the spot over this, so Zorba, if you're listening I'm =
not asking=20
you to reply!  I just don't understand; but then I'm probably being =
thick!

So..... any comments from the Fractint List on the premise that fractals =
are=20
'found' objects, or is that a dead duck? =20
(Dead duck image copyrighted by Jan Vermeer (1623-75)=20
Still life  "Dead Duck with Kalashnikov")

Best regards,

Chris

- ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0D1C8.402980A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Oh dear!  I really put =
one of Jim's=20
cats amongst the pigeons!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I owe Rupert Millard and =
Sylvie Gallet=20
each a public apology.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Here it is Rupert.  I'm =
sorry for=20
implying that you 'stole' anything.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>But it's a real bummer when =
you spend=20
umpty-tump hours trying to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>design a decent user =
interface for a=20
program written only to find a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>similar program posted!  =
And, yes=20
you're right; my program uses the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>negative cos function to =
generate a=20
sinusoidal curve.  (And it's not </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>as good an implementation as=20
yours!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I still think the Bezier =
function would=20
transform these gradient type </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>of map generators.  =
Really no hard=20
feelings from my side so I'll send </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>you the bit of source to your =
email=20
address, (I may persuade you to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>spend a few moments on the=20
'problems'!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Sylvie, I didn't mean to =
imply that *you*=20
were the one that shamed him.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>(English is my native tongue =
but=20
sometimes I have trouble with my worms!)  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>The point I was trying to =
make was that=20
what Zorba had done, although </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>based on your work, was =
something=20
different and therefore valid; and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>yet, he felt that he should =
delete=20
them.  The question still hangs there.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Why did he, or anybody, feel =
that his=20
version was in any way 'inferior' </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>to the original?  Put it =
another=20
way, how come Andy Warhole could </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>charge zillions for a picture =
of a can of=20
Campbell's Soup?  Was the money </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>his, or the graphic designer =
who drew the=20
original can label?  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I suspect that Lee Skinner =
sums up the=20
problem as I see it</FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"=20
size=3D2>........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>Zorba generated the hi-res images with UF instead =
of<BR>>Fractint -=20
they appeared differently (having a different texture)than<BR>>Sylvie =

originally generated - and so she had them removed mainly for =
that<BR>>reason=20
- - they were no longer her images, and so Zorba's saying that =
they<BR>>were=20
her images was inaccurate.  Had he generated them with Fractint,=20
she<BR>>may have approved, assuming that her permission was obtained=20
first.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Why ask for permission?  The images were different and "no =
longer her=20
images"!</DIV>
<DIV>Zorba gave acknowledgement that the .par files had been produced by =
Sylvie=20
</DIV>
<DIV>but he *did* feel that it was the right thing to delete them.  =
I=20
really don't want </DIV>
<DIV>to put Zorba on the spot over this, so Zorba, if you're listening =
I'm not=20
asking </DIV>
<DIV>you to reply!  I just don't understand; but then I'm probably=20
being thick!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>So..... any comments from the =
Fractint=20
List on the premise that fractals are </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>'found' </FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Comic Sans MS"=20
size=3D2>objects, or is that a dead duck?  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>(Dead duck image copyrighted =
by Jan=20
Vermeer (1623-75) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Still life  "Dead Duck =
with=20
Kalashnikov")</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
size=3D2>Chris</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0D1C8.402980A0--


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:18:09 -0500
From: Programmer Dude <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) No hard feelings

Chris Curnow wrote:

> Why did he, or anybody, feel that his version was in any way 'inferior'
> to the original?

I shouldn't speak for someone else, but perhaps not "inferior" so much as
treading on private ground?  Like, you can run across someone's yard, but
if they indicate they don't like it, you respect that and don't?

Or closer to the copyright issue: is music "discovered" or invented?  You
*could* suggest that--mathematically--all songs (and books) already exist
as a permutation of a fairly basic set of "primatives" (notes/words).

But "discovering" a permutation that pleases others, ah, that's the ART!

> Put it another way, how come Andy Warhole could charge zillions for a
> picture of a can of Campbell's Soup?  Was the money his, or the graphic
> designer who drew the original can label?

(IMO obviously) His.  Warhol's art was in drawing our attention to the
presence of graphic art all around us in everyday life.  He was pointing
out that a (probably trained) artist created that soup can label.

THAT's why his work is worth gazillions and mine--if I aped it--ain't.

>> ...and so Zorba's saying that they were her images was inaccurate.
>
> Why ask for permission?  The images were different and "no longer her
> images"!

But she did the original legwork to "discover" the image and--in a moral
sense--has *some* sense of ownership which someone else might respect.

> So..... any comments from the Fractint List on the premise that
> fractals are 'found' objects, or is that a dead duck?

Considered a dead duck by many.

My vote: yeah, fractals are largely discovered, but the framing, coloring
(and these days, overlaying of multiple images) is clearly art, so I don't
see the answer being all Yes or all No.  To me, it's the amount of effort
and *personal* input by the "artist" that makes it art.

If I boot FractInt, zoom in randomly for a while, generate a random color
palette.... is that art?

If I boot FractInt, spend a bit of time finding an image that seems
pleasing to the eye, seems somewhat unique in my experience and then
spend time finding a color palette that brings out the best of the
fractal..... is THAT art?

- --
|_ CJSonnack <[e-mail]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|

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End of fractint-digest V1 #554
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