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fractint-digest       Thursday, January 18 2001       Volume 01 : Number 532




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:51:16 -0000
From: "Andrew Coppin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) FOTDs

Just got back, read all my email. Just wanted to comment on the best
FOTDs...

Impossible Fractal: Very unusual and interesting!
Four Flying Wings: Lovely colours. Very nice!
FMOD Midget: Good-looking image. Kinda reminds me of certain WinAmp skins...
Subliminal Fractal: Jim, you need to get out more often.
The Budding Midget: I really like this one!
Challengine Midget: Ever seen crystals under a polarized light microscope?

Thanks Jim, good work!

Andrew.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:05:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  15-01-01  (A Fractal Blast [7])

Classic FOTD -- January 15, 2001 (Rating 7)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

Today's FOTD is late.  My alibi: I got caught up in the football
excitement as the Ravens won the championship.  My restitution:
a 7-rated above-average image, which for some vague reason I
have named "A Fractal Blast".

It's one of those all-inside images that takes advantage of the
fmod inside fill, which appears as today's FOTD.  The formula
behind the image is number 6 in my series of 12 MandNewt
formulae, which are variations of the ikenaga function, which
remains kind of a mystery.

At near 18 minutes, the parameter file is slow, but due to the
lateness of this parameter posting, the GIF image file will be
posted to:

          alt.binaries.pictures.fractals

in only 4 hours.

The image will also be available soon on the following web sites:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

The fractal weather was partly sunny and 45 degrees F (7C).  The
fractal cats enjoyed the pleasant conditions.

I had intended to philosophize today.  Obviously, I did not.
But there's no rush to get myself into trouble with my
controversial opinions.  I'll keep trying to make my insights
public until I succeed.  Until next time, take care, and be
happy.


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

A_Fractal_Blast    { ; time=0:17:40.34 -- SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=mandnewt.frm
  formulaname=MandNewt06 passes=1
  center-mag=1.20469/1.63474/0.1947566/1/-2.5
  params=-0.23/-0.63/0.28/-0.59/0.48/0.76 float=y
  maxiter=500 bailout=25 inside=fmod proximity=20
  logmap=yes symmetry=none periodicity=0
  colors=0002AQmQtmQtmQtmQtmQrmPrmPrmPrkPqkPqiPrkOqkOq\
  kNo<3>kLnkLnjLnjLnjLn<2>jJmjJmjIk<2>jIkjHkhJjhIjhGjh\
  GjhFh<2>hFhhFhhDghDggDggDggCe<2>gCegCegAdgAdgAdgAdeD\
  ceCceBceBce8ceBae7ae7ae7ae5`<2>d5`d5`d4Zd4Zd4Zd4Zd2Y\
  <2>d2Ye1Zd2Yd4Yd5Yd7Wd8WdAWcCVcCVcDVcFTcGTcITaJSaLSa\
  LSaMQaOQ<2>`QP`RP`TO`SO`VOZWMZYM`ZM<2>dcIifGkgFljDml\
  Csk1tn2tk2rk2rm2rk2qk4qj4qj4oh4<2>ng5ng5ne5me5md5md5\
  kc7kc7ka7ja7ja7j`7h`8hZ8hZ8gY8gY8gW8eWAeWAeVAdVAdTAd\
  TAcSCcSCcQCaQC<2>`PD`ODZODZMDZMDYLFYLFYJFWJFWIFWIFVI\
  GVGGVGGTFGTFGTDGSDISCISCIQCIQAIQAIP8JP8JP7IO7HO5GO5F\
  M4GM4GM4GL2GL2GL1FJ1FJ0EJ0D<2>I0CI0CG0C<3>F0CF0CD0C\
  <2>C0CC0CA0CA0C80C<3>70C70C50E50E50E50E<3>45F47F4AG2\
  CH<3>2IM2JN1LO1MP1OQ1QS1SS0TSnVq<2>nVsnVsoWunVsnVsnV\
  snVsnTr<3>nTrnSqlSqkSqkSq
  }

frm:MandNewt06 {; Jim Muth
z=c=(pixel*p1):
a=z^3+(c-p2)*z-c
b=p3*z^2+c-1
z=z-1*a/b
.000000000000000000000000000001 <= |a|
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:10:48 -0800
From: "Diana L. Dubel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Question on the Mandelbrot Fractal

Dr. Freed,

Thank you for your enthusiastic response.  I appreciate it!

I am currently studying "Chaos and Fractals" by Peitgen, and Mandelbrot's
"Fractal Geometry of Nature".

I am not sure that I have time to look into programming books, as I am
starting Master's classes this month at San Jose State University in
Mathematics.  I have been reviewing Linear Algebra, and Real Analysis.

It has been 25 years since I studied Math, and I am looking at fractals as
one facet of the broad spectrum of the whole subject.

Thanks again,

Diana

- -----Original Message-----
From: DeBow Freed [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 8:32 AM
To: Diana L. Dubel
Subject: Re: (fractint) Question on the Mandelbrot Fractal


One last comment: your questions (example attached) about the inner workings
of
the Fractint code, are excellent. They suggest that you would also benefit
from
some focussed reading about computer programming for fractals in general,
about
which several good books exist. Has anyone suggested them to you?

My own experience was that it was almost impossible to understand the subtle
inner workings of Fractint, UltraFract or any of the rest of them without
first
doing the equivalent of reading a chapter or two of a Comp Sci 100/200
textbook.

What is your educational background? I could also suggest a few such
chapters
which are available on-line in ComSci courses at Stanford, MIT, Duke or Rice
University.

DeBow Freed

"Diana L. Dubel" wrote:

> Note than in my message above, "l" is the letter L.
>
> So, the paragraph below---
>
> > Or does it do a computation of the encirclement set?  In that case it
> would
> > determine a limit as "l" approaches infinity of the log(base2) of the
> > modulus of z sub l, over 2^{l}, and check to see if this is less than
2^k,
> z
> > sub 0 = c.
>
> might be written as---
>
> > Or does it do a computation of the encirclement set?  In that case it
> would
> > determine a limit as "L" approaches infinity of the log(base2) of the
> > modulus of z sub L, over 2^{L}, and check to see if this is less than
2^k,
> z
> > sub 0 = c.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Diana L. Dubel
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: Fractint@Lists. Xmission. Com
> Subject: (fractint) Question on the Mandelbrot Fractal
>
> Math and Fractal groupies,
>
> I am trying to understand the guts of computation of values in the
> Mandelbrot set, and am a little confused.
>
> I have seen printout's of the computer computation of values for the
> Mandelbrot set.
>
> For example;
>
> z(0) = c = pixel;
> z(n+1) = z(n)^2 + c
> bailout = 4
> etc.
>
> Does the computer pick a pixel point on the complex plain and square it,
add
> c, [repeat many times], and determine if it is less than 4, for example?
>
> Or does it do a computation of the encirclement set?  In that case it
would
> determine a limit as "l" approaches infinity of the log(base2) of the
> modulus of z sub l, over 2^{l}, and check to see if this is less than 2^k,
z
> sub 0 = c.
>
> I have studied Chapter 14 in "Chaos and Fractals" in detail, but am not
> understanding some of the applications.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Diana
> ========================================
> Diana L. Dubel  :-)
>
> E-mail - - - [e-mail]
>
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:17:22 +0100
From: "=?iso-8859-1?B?UHVza+FzIElzdHbhbiBqci4=?=" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fw: Higher resolution

Have you tried UNIVBE? It fixed me a VESA problem (rubbish on screen) with
another program. I could mail it if you want. It's about 45 kB.



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:28:00 -0800
From: Kennan C Herrick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fw: Higher resolution

Hi-

No, I haven't.  Could you send it via email?  I'd appreciate trying it.

Thanks-

Ken Herrick

On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:17:22 +0100
"=?iso-8859-1?B?UHVza+FzIElzdHbhbiBqci4=?=" <[e-mail]> writes:
> Have you tried UNIVBE? It fixed me a VESA problem (rubbish on screen)
> with
> another program. I could mail it if you want. It's about 45 kB.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:03:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  16-01-01  (Mandelbrot Specimen [7])

Classic FOTD -- January 16, 2001 (Rating 7)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

For some strange reason, today's fractal image reminds me of a
specimen on a microscope slide, giving me more than enough
reason to name the picture "Mandelbrot Specimen".  The rating of
7 may be a bit liberal, but with its striking hazy blue
atmosphere, the image is definitely at least a little above
average.

The iterated formula adds a tiny bit of Z^(-141.42) to a far
larger portion of Z^(-1.4142) before adding (1/C).  The
resulting teardrop-shaped parent fractal at first appears to
have x-axis symmetry.  This apparent symmetry is an illusion.
At greater depths, the positive and negative halves are entirely
different.

The most obvious critical area of the teardrop is at the blunt
east end.  But today's scene lies not in the most obvious main
arm, but rather deep in a tiny hole in a minor lobe just north
of the main arm.  The sharper west end of the parent fractal
also has interesting areas, which I have not yet touched and may
never touch.  After all, I've got an infinity of other infinite
fractals to explore and not quite an eternity in which to
explore them.

The 1-1/2 minute render time of the parameter file is reasonable
enough for today's relatively easy image.  For those with more
patience, the GIF image file will be posted in 16 hours to
Usenet at:

          alt.binaries.pictures.fractals

and in an hour or so to:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

and:

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

The fractal weather today was cold, cloudy, foggy and drizzly.
Combined with a temperature of 43F (6F), it kept the fractal
cats indoors snug in their beds by the radiator.

For now I see it's time to shutter-up the fractal shoppe and
call it a night.  Until next time, take care, and fractals make
life wonderful.


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

MandelbrotSpecimen { ; time=0:01:23.77 -- SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm
  formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1
  center-mag=+2.413788574630565/+0.191409102126881/3.2\
  20006e+011/1/-87.501/0.001 params=100/-1.4142/1/-141\
  .42/-0.98/300 float=y maxiter=272 inside=0 logmap=18
  symmetry=none periodicity=10
  colors=000Cef<3>HTaIQ`05KKKZ05KMEXWVcirorzzzuwlgt<2>\
  jHyj8zgAx<6>THjRIhOJf<2>IM`GN_FMY<6>BLPBLOALM<3>8LH8\
  LQ7WS7YUD`W<2>ULa_KceLejMgiNi<3>fSteTweUz<2>cXz<3>N`\
  zIazEbzAcz6dzXez<3>zhz<7>jhz<4>`hz<5>khzmhzohz<3>vhz\
  <3>Ghz<5>UhzXhzZhz<3>ghz<3>0hz<6>HhzKhzMhz<3>Vhz<3>J\
  hzHhzNhz<3>ghz<3>PhzLhzGhz<2>3hz<2>Khz<9>DhzChzBhz\
  <3>9hz<7>ahzehzhhz<3>vhz<4>whzwhzwhz<3>whz<8>chzahzZ\
  hz<3>Rhz<3>ehzhhzlhz<2>vhz<2>Fhz<3>`hzehzjhzFhzahzxh\
  z<3>PhzHhzIhz<3>LhzMhzMhz<2>qhz<2>ihz
  }

frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth
a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2),
g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j,
k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel):
z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c,
|z| < l
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:52:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  17-01-01  (Fractal of Nowhere [5])

Classic FOTD -- January 17, 2001 (Rating 5)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

Today's image, as do so many of my recent fractal images,
features a scene in a fractal created by a whimsical formula:
- -0.4(Z^2)-2(Z^(-2))+(1/C).  This formula draws a Mandeloid so
grossly distorted that the period-12 buds are larger than the
period-2 bud, which is almost lost.  Today's scene lies on the
north shore of the main bay, between the period-12 and period-13
buds.

After studying the image for a few minutes and finding no
satisfactory name, I thought to myself that the naming process
was going nowhere.  I immediately had my name -- "Fractal of
Nowhere".  Despite, or perhaps because of all its green and
purple, I could rate the picture no higher than a 5.

With a render time of 3-3/4 minutes, running the parameter file
is marginally the best way of enjoying, (or disparaging), the
image.  The least efficient way to view the image is to wait 15
hours and download the GIF image file from the Usenet binary
group:

          alt.binaries.pictures.fractals

A far better way to view the image is to go to Paul Lee's web
site at:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

or Scott Boyd's web site at:

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

and download the image from one of these sources.

Today's partly sunny sky and mild temperature of 45F (7C) was
ideal for fractal cats, but a brisk wind kept them skittish,
limiting their outdoor adventure to a few minutes.  They showed
their frustration by getting into a spat, which left Thomas with
a nicked ear and earned Tippy a claw trimming.  All is now well
however, since they made up and washed each other's faces soon
after their spat.

For now it's lights out and shut-down time in the old fractal
shoppe.  Until tomorrow, take care, and to lose weight, exercise
with a fractal.


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

Fractal_of_Nowhere { ; time=0:0X:XX.XX -- SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm
  formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1
  center-mag=+11.46191326673826000/+12.729870818548550\
  00/111.2787/1/162.499 params=0.2/2/1/-2/-3/0 float=y
  maxiter=1500 inside=0 logmap=52 periodicity=10
  colors=000K09I0BL0CM0EN0H<3>U0NW0PY0R_0T`0W<3>f2ah3c\
  j3ek3f<3>Z9XWBUSBSPCPLENKFKHHIEIFBIE8KB5L92N60P50P30\
  R20U1<4>1e01h01j02n02p02s02u00q50pR0pR0qR0qP0sP0sP0s\
  P0uP0uP0wP0wN0yN<3>0zN0zN0zL0zL0zI0zL<7>0zK0zK0zK0zK\
  0zI<3>0zI0zI0z00z00z00u00s00s00s00s00u00u00u00u00w00\
  w00w00y0<3>0z20z20z20z30z30z30z5<3>0z60z60z60z8<3>0z\
  90z90zB<3>0zC0zC0zE<3>0zF0zF0zH<3>0zI0zL0zU0za0uj0ps\
  0jw0fw1fw1fw1fu1hu1hu0hu0hs0hs0js0js0jq0jq0lq<2>0lp0\
  lp0nn0nn0nn0nn0pl0pl0pl0pl0pj0qj0qj0qh0qh0sh0sh0sf0s\
  f0sf0uf0ue0ue0ue0we0wc0wc0wc0wc0ya<3>0z`0z`0z`0zZ0zZ\
  0zZ0zZ0zX<3>0zW0zW0zW0zU0zU0zU0zU0zS<3>0zR0zR0zR0zR0\
  zP0zP0zP0zN0zN0zN0zN0zL<4>0zK0zK0zK0zI0zI0zI0zK<10>0\
  zL
  }

frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth
a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2),
g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j,
k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel):
z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c,
|z| < l
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:21:48 -0500
From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) FOTD Mania

While waiting for today's FOTD, I went to Google and typed in "FOTD".  Su=
re =

enough, Paul's Jim Muth FOTD popular website was right at the top of the =

list.  But other sites returned (in this order) included:

Friends of Traditional Dance
Fruit of the Day
Friends of the Dragon Webring
Font of the Day
Fact of the Day
Flung of the Day
Friend(s) of the Devil
Fear of the Dark
Foo of the Day
Flower of the Day
Fruit of the Doom
Flavor of the Day
Fairie O'the Day
Foto of the Day
Fish of the Day

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:56:53 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) C-FOTD  18-01-01  (Five Finger Minibrot [5])

Classic FOTD -- January 18, 2001 (Rating 5)

Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts:

An unexpected rush job, (Why are they always unexpected?), put
the damper on my fractal efforts today.  But I did find a chance
to dredge up a passable midget.  Unfortunately, I had no chance
to write a proper discussion.  The result of all this activity
is that the FOTD is once again late.  I don't enjoy the
lateness, preferring to be prompt in my postings, but sometimes
it just can't be avoided.

Now as to that fractal.  It's an average midget, which I have
named "Five Finger Minibrot", and rated a 5.  I gave the image
its name when I thought I spotted fingers around the edge of the
open area.  The formula that created the image is quite
arbitrary: 26Z^(-0.98765)-52Z^(-9.8765)+C.  To find the formula,
I put my fingers on automatic.  (Perhaps that's why the fingers
appeared in the image.)

The render time is slow enough to make a download of the image
worth the effort.  That download may be found in 3 hours on
Usenet, posted to the binary newsgroup:

          alt.binaries.pictures.fractals

And as soon as possible on the Web at:

          <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html>

and at:

          <http://home.swbell.net/sdboyd56/fotd/>

A non-eventful day in the weather aspect made the fractal cats
far less restless than they were the day before, when they got
into a fight.  The partly sunny skies and temperature of 44F
(6.5C) were ideal, with the light wind making conditions perfect
for a full afternoon's outing in the yard.  The dynamic duo
carried their good mood into the evening, which helped me
immensely in the rush.

My planned philosophy fared less well however, but the rush
design job will be out in a few hours, and I'll tackle that
unfinished story.

Until next time, take care, and when things get rushed, move
faster.


Jim Muth
[e-mail]


START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================

FiveFingerMinibrot { ; time=0:13:14.16 -- SF5 on a P200
  reset=2001 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm
  formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1
  center-mag=-0.12573544663073950/+8.93511041527769100\
  /580021.1/1/70 params=1/-0.98765/-2/-9.8765/25/300
  float=y maxiter=1200 inside=0 logmap=22 periodicity=9
  colors=000Zb0Ve0Rg0Nk0Jm0Ho0Nk0zc0Xg0<2>ib0m`0sZ0zX0\
  <4>zN0tL0z48z0Gz0LT00000000880JL6XXGgiNuuXzzdzPNzPLz\
  PLzNJzNHzNHzLGzLEzLEzJCzJCzJAzH8zH8zH6zH6zs0mR0Z00X0\
  0V00T00R20R20P20N40L40L40J60H60G62G62CNA8dH4uP2zX0zb\
  <3>0zq0zu0zx0zz<3>0zz0zz0zz0zz2vz8qzGkzLdzTZzZTzeNzk\
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  }

frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth
a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2),
g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j,
k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel):
z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c,
|z| < l
}

END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================

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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:38:50 -0600
From: Programmer Dude <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Dead Horse (was: various Copyright posts)

All-

I hope you'll forgive this continuation after the horse is long dead (at
least for a while), but Bob posed a couple questions I've been meaning to
answer (but have been overwhelmed with a large project going out the door
and had no time to address).  And, because of that large project, I'm a
bit brain-fried and don't feel like doing any useful work [grin].  And the
list has been quiet lately, so.....

Bob Margolis wrote:

> I don't create fractal artwork as background designs for someone else's
> "Wheaties box" so to speak. Would any of you enjoy seeing the Mona Lisa
> after someone else covered it with text?

Depends on how it was done.  But I certainly might.  I might also feel
that it could introduce others who might not be familiar with the work
to wonder what it was and possibly seek out the original.  I don't agree
that a great work is necessarily "cheapened" this way: I think greatness
shines through.

[SIDEBAR]
Just a thought about Wheaties boxes... Andy Warhol opened our minds to
the artists' work that is everywhere we look.  On my desk is a box of
Good Earth tea.  It contains two drawings: one of a farm field scene with
horse, plow and driver and another of some flowers and herbs.  These small
artworks are repeated, respectively, twice and thrice on various sides of
the box.  Someone made those drawings, someone designed the layout of the
box.

It strikes me that a Wheaties box with a fractal--even with text over it--
would be kind of cool. (And an honor for the lucky fractal artist.)  More
to the point, we should all be aware of the artwork that lives around us
in great proffusion and appreciate the work of all these unsung artists.
[/SIDEBAR]

> I felt that what I labored to design became quite pedestrian when it
> the background for Mr. Miller's CD.

That is *one* way to see it.  Another is to see it as an honor.  Someone
found it worthy of putting on their CD.  You are absolutely entitled to
control (or try to control) your work, and I support that absolutely.

But consider this scenario: you generously allow Miller to use your art
on his CDs.  As a result, a number of people discover the world of
fractals having never seen them before.  As a result, someone who does
know fractals, but has never seen your work, really likes the image, seeks
you out and gives you a ton of money to make him/her/it an image.

Unlikely?  Maybe.  But who knows.  Since Miller's use wasn't for profit,
and since you seem to have no intrinsic objection to the Dead, you had a
chance to be generous and spread the word about fractals and yourself.

You had, IMO, little to lose and possibly something to gain.

> I have pride as an artist, and detest seeing my accomplishments
> cheapened in such a manner.

And that obviously lies at the heart of what's going on here.  You have a
perception that your work is threatened, and that upsets you.  I'd just
like you to be aware of another way to look at it that isn't threatening.

From another post:

> Therefore, he's not really displaying the artwork for its loveliness;
> he's using it as background for his text, be it a quote from the Bible,
> contents of a CD, or Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. The texts become the
> important item, not the pictures.

Disagree on two counts.  First, he almost certainly *did* choose it for
its loveliness or he wouldn't have chosen it.  Second, speaking as someone
who does combine backgrounds and text, the important thing is the BOTH OF
THEM.

> The pictures, then, become altered from their original states because
> of the added text. Would that alteration be considered "fair use" of
> the fractal-art pictures?

No.  Fair use applies to "quoting" material for reference or illustration.
If I were writing an essay about fractals, I *might* be legally able to
include a small version of your fractal so long as I cited its origin,
but fair use applies to *pieces* of a work, so I might not legally be
able to use the full image.  That's a matter for lawyers.  But fair use
in no way applies to this situation.

But what might apply is that copyright laws may not apply to use when no
profit is involved (as appears to be the case here).  There is no law
against me putting your fractals on a CD I make and use myself.  I can
even legally make two and *give* one to a friend.

> Should you fault me for having pride in what I design and becoming
> protective of it when it is used in a manner which I had not intended
> for it?

To the former, absolutely not.  To the latter, well, IMO, you *might* be
over-reacting just a little.  The thing is:

> What right did Mr. Miller have to make that decision for me before
> coming to me about it? That question still has not been answered with
> satisfaction by anyone here who is opposed to my viewpoint.

But he *did* exactly that.  He created a stand-alone web page exactly so
he could show you his intended use.  It appears to be an uncontested fact
that the web page had not been made public, and when you *did* object he
did remove it.  Also uncontested is that no profit was involved

Again, I completely support your position vis-a-vis your work.  My only
point was that your reaction was--IMO--a little extreme and unnecessary.
You added a little more negativity to the world (at Christmas, no less),
and you could have chosen a different way to make your point.  I just
felt a strong urge to speak up about that.

This got long, and I haven't even answered the post directed to me.
So, to be continued....   ;-\

- --
|_ CJSonnack <[e-mail]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|

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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:47:42 -0600
From: Programmer Dude <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Dead Horse II (was: reality check)

Me again,...

Bob Margolis wrote:

>> Are you comparing Dead Heads to neo-Nazis or White Supremicists or KKKs?
>
> I never made such a comparison.

[shrug] You brought them up in the context of this discussion.  You asked
how I'd feel about my work being used by such, so the implication seemed
pretty clear.  Understandable you'd want to deny that implication, and
we'll consider it retracted.

>> It was an *individual* who liked your art work and thought it was
>> worth honoring by using... He may have been well-meaning but ignorant.
>
> And ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Agreed.  Again, my only real issue here was in how you *handled* this.  I
don't want to come off like this is a huge deal; it isn't.  I've supported
your right to manage your work as you see fit from the beginning.  I just
didn't like the manner you in which you managed Mr. Miller, and I'd like
you to see a different way of looking at the situation (and reacting).

Really, it's no big deal.  We're just chattin'!!

>> Yes, almost certainly.  My world's big enough for people with opinions
>> 180 degrees different from mine, and I don't feel the need to attempt
>> to control or thwart them just because I don't agree with them.
>
> That's most liberal of you. :-) What would go through your mind then if
> the public associates you with those groups holding opposing viewpoints
> because you willingly allowed those groups to use your artwork in
> support of their cause?

To be honest, I don't worry all that much about the public.  Depending on
the situation, I might view it as an opportunity to make inroads into an
area to express a different viewpoint.  I might also find it hysterically
funny that a group might favor *my* work over others when my views were
so different from theirs.  "If they only knew...."  HA!!!

But we're wandering pretty far afield here.  Not all situations lend to
exaggeration and extremes as metaphors.  There's no danger, I think, the
public will associate you with the Grateful Dead because some guy used
your work on a free CD.

>> I don't think that way, nor live my life that way.
>
> So, because you chose to be that way, do you believe that I should model
> my life after yours? :-)

Not at all.  I *would* like you to consider reacting with grace and good
will and gentleness should such a situation happen again.  (I'm big on
The Three Gs.)

>>> Would you feel then that it is okay for them to use your artwork
>>> without seeking permission from you?
>>
>> But that's not what happened, is it, Bob.  He *sought* your permission,
>> and, AIUI, removed your art after your reply.
>
> You didn't answer my question. Put aside the discussion concerning Mr.
> Miller. The question is a general one. What say you is your answer then?

I would obviously prefer it.  I don't require it.  (That is, *IF* I put
the artwork on my web page.  Under such a circumstance, I consider it
unprotectable, so I would only post work in a form I wouldn't mind being
used without my knowledge or consent.)

>>> Is all artwork posted on the Internet supposed to be *free* for the
>>> taking, no questions asked?
>>
>> Regardless of the legal issues, that's pretty  much the way it works
>> out.
>
> You didn't answer the question again. I asked if it was supposed to be
> "free." Answer the question yes or no, please, without the song and
> dance. :-)

[grin] How about yes or no WITH the song and dance?...

Rump-a-bum-bum: *supposed* to be free: ahdonno... (cha-cha-cha)

But that's pretty much how it works out.  In a perfect world, I'm supposed
to be able to leave my wallet sitting on a restaurant table and have it
be there when I realize it half an hour later and go back.  In the real
world, not so much.

People aren't *supposed* to take what isn't theirs, but if I leave a
thing lying in public view, I'm not surprised if someone *does* take it.

(Thing is, I'm not big on "supposed to be's".  I'm big on "is's".)

> So we should be anarchists and not live in a nation with laws?

Okay.  Seriously.  I am something of a political anarchist, and I would
like to see a *lot* fewer laws and a *lot* more personal responsibility.
But that's a whole 'nother topic.

> It's to be a dog-eat-dog world with every person fending for himself
> with no law whatsoever?

Well, again--as with the neo-Nazis and White Supremicists--you're taking
this to extremes.  There's a lot of ground between copyrights and a dog-
eat-dog world with NO laws.

But, honestly, I'd be happy with going in that general direction, yes.

> I would have no right to call a cop if a mugger held me up
> at gunpoint on the street? That's just the way life is, and I should
> deal with it?

Yep.  Of course, in my world you'd be armed and able to shoot back.  And
there's reason to believe that would lead to a lot less muggers.  At least
a lot less *living* ones...

Oops, did I just open a can of worms????   ;-\

>>> Is it *toughies* for any artist who chooses to make a living by
>>> selling artwork over the Internet, because people such as you believe
>>> things in life should be *free* to them?
>>
>> Yes.  ;-)
>
> At least your honest. :-)
>
>> Sorry, you deserved that reply, since you've mis-represented my
>> position.  For genuine answer, see previous paragraph.
>
> I was just asking a question in general without considering your
> position. Your "yes" is what I expected to read. :-)

Considering your outlook, I can see why you'd run with this ball.

But, again, a *genuine* answer is this:

First, as I keep saying, you have the right to (at least try to) control
how your work is used.  I want to be very clear on this, Bob.  I fully
support your desire to control your work.

But.  If an artist is going to use the internet to sell their work, then
they'd better be internet-savy.  If you're dumb enough to put something
you expect to sell in plain view, then I don't have much sympathy when
someone takes it.

Post low-rez images.  Put copyright text on them.  Watermark them.

Three simple solutions.  There's plenty more.

>> For all you know, there's a dozen people out there who *are* using
>> your artwork.
>
> Yes, I'm sure there are. That doesn't make it any more legal.

It's not clear to me Miller's use *is* illegal, since it was non-profit
and personal.

>> I *do* think people with attitudes like yours are *doomed* to go the
>> way of .ARC files.  And, perhaps, rightfully so.
>
> How am I *doomed*? How will I meet my demise holding the attitudes I do?

Doomed .NE. Demise.

By trying to retain too tight a control on your work, you may lose out to
others who are more generous.  There's a LOT of people creating fractals.

This business is filled with examples.  ARC/ZIP is a classic example.
Another is the IBM-PC/Apple-Mac.  IBM offered an open architecture; Apple
offered a closed one.  While the Mac is arguably better, the PC exploded
because (at least in part) it was *accessible*.  Another example that hits
us close to home is the GIF.  In attempting to control it, they lost it.

There are Zen sayings about trying to control too much....

>>  The digital age is changing many aspects of life we previously took
>> for granted.  It calls for a new mind set.
>
> And everthing on the Internet should be "free for the taking" according
> to that "new mind set?"

Everything on the internet **is** free for the taking **unless** you take
savy steps to protect it.  The internet *came* from a desire to *share*
information and data.  The *web* came from a desire to make information
accessible (and free) to all interested parties.

>>> Do you find copyright laws silly and an inconvenience to you?
>>> If any of your rights would be violated, would that be okay with you?
>>
>> Sheeze, talk about mis-representing.  Not worth answering.
>
> Not misrepresentation, Dude. Just wanting to get your viewpoint
> regarding copyright law, that's all.

No, you take my position to the extreme without trying to understand
what I'm really saying.

> Would you please answer the question?

Then try asking it without ascribing insulting exaggerations to me.

Do I find copyright laws silly and an inconvenience?  No, and no.  Duh.

If any of my rights are violated, would that be okay with me?  Any of
them?  Gee, what do you *think* my answer to that would be?  Hello.

Specifically, if I put a piece of my work on my website and some person
took it and used it in some personal way (i.e. not an organization and
not for profit) I have no problem with that.  But then I don't view that
as a rights violation.

Okay, (more than) 'nuf sed.

- --
|_ CJSonnack <[e-mail]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|

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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:00:35 -0600
From: Programmer Dude <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractal Reality (was FOTD 13-01-01)

In apology for beating a Dead Horse, I offer the following ON TOPIC thread.
Obviously, this is all (as ever) I.M.O....

Jim Muth wrote:

> I often wonder, "are fractals real?"  The answer can only be, "fractals
> are the things numbers do, and numbers are pure abstractions".  The
> Mandelbrot set does not exist in the sense that a tree does.

Language is sometimes not good at making distinctions we'd like to make.
The M-set is not *concrete* like a tree, but neither is it as abstract
as, say, "justice" or "freedom".

I will, to foment discussion, argue that numbers (and hence fractals) are
as "real" as anything you care to name.  I will also pose the idea that
maybe (just maybe) reality is only as real as numbers.

Numbers.  Are they invented or discovered?  An interesting question.

You might distantly recall (or see your young child bring home) from
school exercises where you have a page of pictures of tall, skinny things
and the goal is to circle the ones that are trees.  What is being taught
is the process of classification and what is sometimes called "unity".
That is, there is a generic, abstract "unit" with the label "Tree". And
we learn as humans to determine what matches that unit.  And what does
not.

My dog has--what are to me--*three* tennis balls.  To her, they are not
at all identical.  They are distinct objects in her world.  Each has
features that distinquish it totally from the others.  To her, every tree
is a separate, distinct object with its own characteristics.

If humans saw the world this way, shepherds would never know how many
sheep they had.  More importantly, they'd find it difficult to know when
the wolves got one!  (If you go to a gathering of 200 hundred people you
know, how easy is it to determine if someone didn't show up?)

When we count sheep or tennis balls we say, in effect, these are all the
same sort of thing.  Early number systems often mapped symbol directly
to object.  You all know the base 1 system: 1=1, 2=11, 3=111, 4=1111 and
5=1111-slash (you know, how prisoners and castaways mark the days).  In
this system, each mark maps directly to the object.

The next step is to create new symbols that map to a set of distinct
collections.  The symbol "1" maps to the collection containing one thing.
The symbol "2" maps to a collection of two.  And so forth.  The number
of symbols and what they map to generates a numbering system.

Positional notation (our numbers) takes this process another step by
re-using symbols to generate larger numbers. Positional notation requires
a special invention: the symbol for zero!  Since this isn't an essay on
positional notation, I'll leave it at that.

I will mention an interesting system (from Fred Pohl's Heechee series)
where the symbols are mapped to prime numbers and you enumerate by
listing the required symbols (primes) to sum to the desired number.  In
this system, the *order* of symbols make no difference.  On the flip side
you need a lot of them to count very high!  On the other other hand, you
sometimes only need one symbol to enumerate a large (prime) number!!

The point I want to make is that each step in this path starts with real
objects and the need to enumerate them.  We just find better and better
ways of doing it.

Does that make numbers real or abstract?  I claim it makes them real.

Next step, math operations: add, subtract, etc.

If I have an orange, and you have an apple, and we put them both on the
table, there are two fruits.  We just "invented" addition.  Or did we
merely *discover* it.  Did we just make a label for a real thing?  I say
we just discovered a natural operation.

An interesting point:  given the definition of "1" and "2" and the
definition of "+", "1+1=2" no matter what country, planet or galaxy you
inhabit.  Indeed math will be the initial language of communication
should alien life be discovered *because* it is so universal.  Can we
really call mathematics "abstract" given its universality?

I claim not.

Now here's dessert:

You may be aware of the "Many Worlds" theories of quantum physics.  The
idea is that any event with more than one outcome generates new worlds
for each possible outcome.  Resulting in an infinite number of realities.
Mind boggling, yes?  How is something like that possible?  Where does
the energy come from to generate a whole new universe?

Here's a question for you.  What's the answer to "x * x = 4"?

Obviously 2.  Also -2.  And various other equations will have larger sets
of correct answers.

What if, just what if, the "real" world was nothing more than mathematics
and the splitting of world lines for multiple-outcome events was nothing
more than having multiple answers for the same equation!

Well, that's just crazy talk.... Isn't it?   ;-|

Returning from deep left field, the thing is that reality is not quite
as real as we might like to think.  The more you know about quantum
physics, the weirder the world gets....

As Jim said:
> No one will ever find a 'real' Mandelbrot set; they will find only
> pictures of it.

But no one will ever see an atom; they will find only images of it.
Yet atoms are real.  Aren't they?

How about electricity?  It's only *force*.  But pretty real to those
that've be struck by lightning!

Perhaps it is our definition of "real" that needs work.  I conclude that
mathematics and fractals are AT LEAST as "real" as electricity and atoms.

I'm just not quite sure how real *any* of them are...

> The M-set exists only because human beings evolved with the sense of
> vision, and to better understand the workings of math functions,
> find it helpful to turn the functions into pictures.  In essence, the
> Mandelbrot set exists only because we created it with our minds and
> sustain it with our computers.

I submit that the M-set will be discovered by any intelligent race.  The
key word here is "discovered".  Only real things can be discovered.  The
mathematic relationships that result in the Mandelbrot exist throughout
the universe.  We didn't *invent* them, we *stumbled* on them!

> But according to quantum theory, atoms also are nothing more
> than convenient pictures, models created in human minds from
> mathematical functions.

I would say that atoms are just our best *model* of the real thing.
(And that model seems to be pretty accurate.)

> And I have heard it said that numbers themselves are creations of the
> human mind.  So is the 'real world' the world's greatest fractal?  The
> answer to this challenging question is what I am currently seeking.

I suggest the question is impossible as posed.  All fractals are numbers,
but not all numbers are fractal.  Perhaps a way to ask the question ties
back to that Many Worlds solution I mentioned.  Is our reality nothing
more than the "collapse" of an unimaginably complex wave function?  Are
we all in the box with Schroedinger's Cat?

> Until tomorrow, take care, and beware of the fractal witch.

Hey, not all witches are bad.  I always had a crush on Samantha Tate...

- --
|_ CJSonnack <[e-mail]> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|

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End of fractint-digest V1 #532
******************************