home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
fractint
/
archive
/
v01.n315
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
1998-10-13
|
43KB
From: owner-fractint-digest@lists.xmission.com (fractint-digest)
To: fractint-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: fractint-digest V1 #315
Reply-To: fractint-digest
Sender: owner-fractint-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-fractint-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
fractint-digest Wednesday, October 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 315
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 02:01:31 -0400
From: Paul Derbyshire <pderbysh@usa.net>
Subject: (fractint) FOTW
A new FOTW is up! Check it out at http://surf.to/pgd.fractal.gallery.
Also, some new stuff on my "Microsoft Rants" page for all you
Microsoft-haters out there.
- --
.*. "Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not
- -() < circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a
`*' straight line." -------------------------------------------------
-- B. Mandelbrot |http://surf.to/pgd.net
_____________________ ____|________ Paul Derbyshire pderbysh@usa.net
Programmer & Humanist|ICQ: 10423848|
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 03:55:13 EDT
From: SKarl52884@aol.com
Subject: Re: (fractint) FOTW
In a message dated 10/14/98 2:08:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pderbysh@usa.net
writes:
<< A new FOTW is up! Check it out at http://surf.to/pgd.fractal.gallery.
Also, some new stuff on my "Microsoft Rants" page for all you
Microsoft-haters out there. >>
Paul....hehe.
Very nice site and entertaining MS rants. I'm looking forward to tinkering
with the new HRing_J series.
P.S. Your name isn't in the frm comments. [ I slipped it in in
my copy ] Thanks,
Steve
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 03:24:17 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <Paul.N.Lee@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
Kim Bach Petersen wrote:
>
> http://home8.inet.tele.dk/kimb/fractals/
>
You have several HTML errors on many of your webpages and files.
On your "main" page, you have: >/NOFRAMES> where the first character
is reversed. You also have the BODY tag specified on a FRAMESET file
which is not allowed, so try the following:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Kim's Fractal Gallery</TITLE>
<meta name = "description" content = "A gallery with fractal images.">
<meta name = "keywords" content = "fractal, images, fractint, gallery,
mandelbrot">
</HEAD>
<FRAMESET COLS="125,*" FRAMESPACING="0" BORDER="FALSE" FRAMEBORDER="0">
<FRAME NAME="THEMENU" SRC="fracmenu.html" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0
BORDERCOLOR=#00ff00>
<FRAME NAME="THESITE" SRC="startfrac.html" NORESIZE FRAMEBORDER=0
BORDERCOLOR=#00ff00>
<NOFRAMES>
This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them..."
</NOFRAMES>
</FRAMESET>
</HTML>
On your "fracmenu.html" file you have the following code:
<A HREF="..\tour\tour.html" TARGET="THESITE">
You may wish to reverse the direction of the "slash".
P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:58:47 +0100
From: Dave <Dave@Quanta.co.uk>
Subject: RE: (fractint) High iteratio
> Still, it works fine when I try, so I'm pretty confused.
>
> It should be basic HTML, using frames as the only "fancy" detail. I
> use
> MSIE, could this be a IE / netscape thing? Suggestings are more than
> welcome
> off the list!
>
> Kim
A good test of HTML if to flush your caches (temporary internet folders
etc) and then dial up to your own site and view it on-line. That way, it
won't pull up a picture still contained locally from your development
time.
I see many sites with broken links and mising pics due to the fact that
they've been tested on the same machine that's developed them and as
such is viewing stuff stored locally, not stored on the ISP's server.
Viewing the source code shows that the link to the pic is "C:\Program
Files\Office\ClipArt" etc...
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
> Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
> Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
> Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
> Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 04:06:56 -0500
From: Elaina Tillinghast <juice@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
At 09:25 PM 10/12/1998 +0100, you wrote:
>>I'm preparing an illustrated tutorial on high iteration
>>mandelbrot zooms, it should be ready in a day
>>(night would be more accurate, really) or two...
>http://home8.inet.tele.dk/kimb/fractals/
Your tour page lists links with back slashes instead of slashes. I was
viewing the source of your files and finding the name of the next link.
That got a bit too cumbersome before I got to any of the pictures.
You need to put the frames stuff inside the body tags. And body tags are
required.
That should help a lot :)
Juice --have fun --harm none
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:58:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteratio
On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Kim Bach Petersen wrote:
> Still, it works fine when I try, so I'm pretty confused.
>
> It should be basic HTML, using frames as the only "fancy" detail. I use
> MSIE, could this be a IE / netscape thing?
It's probably an IE / standards thing. Basic Web Standards primer:
1. There are a lot of browsers out there. There are at least a hundred
versions of Netscape, because it runs on a dozen platforms and has been
through ten or so versions. There are a couple dozen other browsers
that are used by some segment of the population, often outputting on
devices like text-mode terminals, palmtop computers with 160x100
screens, telephone receivers (really! You can browse the Web over
the telephone.), screen readers, Braille terminals, etc. etc. etc.
2. You want these people to be able to read your web pages. (Right?)
3. There have *always* been a lot of browsers. There have never been
fewer than two major browsers.
4. As a result, since the early days of the Web, there have been
Standards. The Standards usually describe stuff you can do so that
nearly every web browser can understand you. (The major exception is
HTML 3.0, which was full of garbage, so nobody implemented it.) The
Standards are available from w3.org.
5. The standards are not sufficient, though. No standard will tell you
why using frames is evil (see http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html
for that) or why using cute little animated .gifs to spice up your
pages will make people go elsewhere (hint: a 100K .gif takes more than
a minute to download at 14.4kbps --- it'd better be worth the wait!) or
why using .BMP files for your images is dumb (hint: count the number of
browsers that support it) or why you should use client-side imagemaps
as well as server-side imagemaps or why you should not ever have a
three-page "tunnel" that leads to your actual useful pages.
For that, you could do the following:
- look at www.suck.com
- look at http://photo.net/wtr/
- read www.useit.com
- install a lot of web browsers, especially old ones, and try
out how they deal with your fancy tricks
- validate your HTML so you can find things that work on your browser,
but don't fit the standard.
My web pages suck, though, so be careful about listening to me. :)
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:05:46 EDT
From: SKarl52884@aol.com
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteratio
In a message dated 10/14/98 9:01:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kragen@pobox.com
writes:
<< > It should be basic HTML, using frames as the only "fancy" detail. I use
> MSIE, could this be a IE / netscape thing?
>>
Not for loading image files. That's so basic all of them do it the same way.
It's either there or it isn't.
Empty your cache after every upload!!!!!!!!
Only safe way to know for sure.
S.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Dean-Christian Strik wrote:
> IF you're not compressing weakly-compressable binaries (exes and such). RAR
> can then even enlarge the file. It is annoying that this cannot(?) be turned
> off.
Every compression program will sometimes enlarge the file. There's a
mathematical proof of this, which I don't feel like explaining at the
moment, but will explain to whoever asks. At the very least, you need
to add a byte or so to the beginning to indicate "this file has not
been compressed" --- otherwise, you have to try to decompress it, and
then ask the user "is this right?"
btw, bzip2 has usually about 20% better compression than zip, arj,
gzip, etc. I wonder if it uses the same methods as RAR? It's also
very slow.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:52:02 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <Paul.N.Lee@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
Elaina Tillinghast wrote:
>
> You need to put the frames stuff inside the body tags.
> And body tags are required.
>
This is incorrect!! You should not include any <BODY> content within
the frame document; Netscape will ignore the frame tags and display just
the contents of a <BODY> tag it it comes first, or vice versa. Use the
<FRAMESET> tag in lieu of a <BODY> tag in the frame document. You may
not include any other content except valid <HEAD> and <FRAMESET> content
in a frame document, or the Netscape browser will ignore the frame HTML
tags.
Structure of a frameset document
- --------------------------------
The frameset document, which contains the <FRAMESET> element(s) used to
set up the frameset, differs from a normal HTML 3.2 document in one
aspect: it does not have a BODY section. The <FRAMESET> element
replaces <BODY>. The <HEAD> section of the document is still according
to HTML 3.2 rules. The following is an example of a very simple
frameset, that consists only of two equally-sized rows. The upper row
is named "foo", and the lower row is named "bar".
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>A sample frameset document</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<FRAMESET ROWS="*,*">
<FRAME SRC="foo.html" NAME=foo>
<FRAME SRC="bar.html" NAME=bar>
<NOFRAMES>
<BODY>
Any comments about what to do for other browsers uncapable.
</BODY>
</NOFRAMES>
</FRAMESET>
</HTML>
Note that the <NOFRAMES> section of the document contains a <BODY>
element. This is the only exception to the <BODY> tag rule, it is used
*ONLY* within the <NOFRAME> tag. This can be used to include an entire
document, so that if support for frames is disabled, or not present at
all, the viewer gets alternative content. But the comments could just
as well be added in the <NOFRAMES> section without any <BODY> element.
For the W3C HTML Validation Service, try the following URL:
http://validator.w3.org/
P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: Sv: (fractint) Re: [fractal-art] cost of images/videomode?
On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Sylvie Gallet wrote:
> >> According to the Image Arithmetic site, GIF format is no longer
> >> supported by the program. How are you able to use it to create those
> >> large images?
>
> I convert all of the pieces into PCX and I use PNG format for the output
> image.
Because of ridiculous and criminal US patent legislation, it's illegal
to make .gifs or write software that makes .gifs without paying Unisys
a licensing fee. So most new non-proprietary software doesn't support
.gif.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:07:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Peter Gavin wrote:
> When RAR creates a solid archive, it treates all the files as a single file,
> rather than restarting the compression (i.e. recreating the dictionary,
> etc.) for each file. I compressed the set of PNG files (which already have
> good compression ratios) for that animation, and got *2:1* compression on
> them, even though their already compressed!
The standard method for distributing compressed archives in the Unix
world is to first create a big file containing all the files you want
to archive with "tar", which doesn't do any compression, and then
compress the whole thing with "compress" or "gzip". This has the same
advantage you describe above.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Paul N. Lee wrote:
> Elaina Tillinghast wrote:
> > You need to put the frames stuff inside the body tags.
> > And body tags are required.
>
> This is incorrect!! You should not include any <BODY> content within
> the frame document; Netscape will ignore the frame tags and display just
> the contents of a <BODY> tag it it comes first, or vice versa. Use the
> <FRAMESET> tag in lieu of a <BODY> tag in the frame document.
Paul is, of course, right. But frames suck anyway.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:29:13 -0500
From: "Paul N. Lee" <Paul.N.Lee@Worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
Kragen wrote:
>
> Paul is, of course, right.
Of course!! ;-}
>
> But frames suck anyway.
This is VERY true!! I thought they were kind of "cool and neat" when
they were initially introduced, but have since learned my lesson (as
most commercial and professional websites now do).
P.N.L.
- -------------------------------------------------
Why do most folks hate cynics so much?
Because we're almost always right.
- -------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:32:17 +0100
From: "Kim Bach Petersen" <kimb@post8.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteratio
Thanks to you all for your kind interest in my site, I really appreciate it!
I have tried out all your advise:
- - Emptying my browser cache made no difference for me: the site still loaded
ok from my web-hotel.
- - I did some minor corrections on HTML - maybe most important I found an
extra " (quotemark) in index.html, that might have hidden the end-tags...
(my browser didn't care)
- - Someone suggested putting frames-stuff inside <body> tags, but that gave
me a blank page! Hmm!
Having tested it to the best of my ability, I'd say it works...
(If not, I'll redo the whole thing without frames.)
Please look by again and feel free to complaint if it doesn't load!
http://home8.inet.tele.dk/kimb/fractals/
To be just a bit on topic I include a par...
Thank you all, Kim!
- ---8<---
nicejulia { ; Kim Bach Petersen 1998
reset=1960 type=julia passes=1
center-mag=1.11022e-016/1.11022e-016/1.037344/1/62.499
params=-0.09703580179264795/0.6526370578250215 float=y maxiter=40000
colors=000xzNyzMzzL<30>22d00e00d<25>008006005003002000<29>00J00K00L00M00\
M<27>00d00e01e02e<24>0Ye0_e0`e0be0ce0ee<5>3hh4ii5jj6kk6kk<17>JxxJxxKyyKy\
yLzz<60>xzN
}
- --8<---
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteration zooms
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Paul N. Lee wrote:
> Kragen wrote:
> > But frames suck anyway.
>
> This is VERY true!! I thought they were kind of "cool and neat" when
> they were initially introduced, but have since learned my lesson (as
> most commercial and professional websites now do).
Some examples: Infoseek and Netscape both had frame-based home pages
shortly after the introduction of frames. Neither now does. (This
bears repeating: Netscape, the *inventor* of frames, doesn't use them
now!)
Some reasons why frames are not so good can easily be found at
www.useit.com, www.websitesthatsuck.com, www.suck.com, and
www.webreview.com.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:19:01 +0100
From: Dave <Dave@Quanta.co.uk>
Subject: RE: (fractint) High iteratio
Tried the site - I get the pics fine.
I'm using MS-Incompetant Explorer 3.00 (probably 3.02 since I can see
frames) under NT4 workstation.
Guess the removal of the quote did the trick. I've had odd problems that
have been caused by supposedly-insignificant things like spaces or dots
in the HTML.
Nice pics, and they look good against the black background. And the site
is simple and clear - good effort!
> ----------
> From: Kim Bach Petersen[SMTP:kimb@post8.tele.dk]
> Reply To: fractint@lists.xmission.com
> Sent: 14 October 1998 17:32
> To: FractInt Listserver
> Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteratio
>
> Thanks to you all for your kind interest in my site, I really
> appreciate it!
>
> I have tried out all your advise:
>
> - Emptying my browser cache made no difference for me: the site still
> loaded
> ok from my web-hotel.
>
> - I did some minor corrections on HTML - maybe most important I found
> an
> extra " (quotemark) in index.html, that might have hidden the
> end-tags...
> (my browser didn't care)
>
> - Someone suggested putting frames-stuff inside <body> tags, but that
> gave
> me a blank page! Hmm!
>
> Having tested it to the best of my ability, I'd say it works...
> (If not, I'll redo the whole thing without frames.)
>
> Please look by again and feel free to complaint if it doesn't load!
>
> http://home8.inet.tele.dk/kimb/fractals/
>
> To be just a bit on topic I include a par...
>
> Thank you all, Kim!
>
> ---8<---
> nicejulia { ; Kim Bach Petersen 1998
> reset=1960 type=julia passes=1
> center-mag=1.11022e-016/1.11022e-016/1.037344/1/62.499
> params=-0.09703580179264795/0.6526370578250215 float=y maxiter=40000
>
> colors=000xzNyzMzzL<30>22d00e00d<25>008006005003002000<29>00J00K00L00M
> 00\
>
> M<27>00d00e01e02e<24>0Ye0_e0`e0be0ce0ee<5>3hh4ii5jj6kk6kk<17>JxxJxxKyy
> Ky\
> yLzz<60>xzN
> }
> --8<---
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
> Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
> Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
> Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
> Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:53:55 -0400
From: "Peter Gavin" <pgavin@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
// Kragen Wrote:
//
// The standard method for distributing compressed archives in the Unix
// world is to first create a big file containing all the files you want
// to archive with "tar", which doesn't do any compression, and then
// compress the whole thing with "compress" or "gzip". This
// has the same
// advantage you describe above.
//
// Kragen
This is true, I guess that's where RAR's author got the idea, but the
difference is, ZIP *doesn't* do it, so that's where RAR has an advantage.
Pete
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:53:57 -0400
From: "Peter Gavin" <pgavin@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
// Kragen wrote:
// Every compression program will sometimes enlarge the file. There's a
// mathematical proof of this, which I don't feel like explaining at the
// moment, but will explain to whoever asks. At the very
// least, you need
// to add a byte or so to the beginning to indicate "this file has not
// been compressed" --- otherwise, you have to try to decompress it, and
// then ask the user "is this right?"
It has to do with the premise that (for at least a short section of data)
there are regular patterns in data, so the compressor replaces long
stretches of repeating data with one byte, of course making the file
smaller. Unfortunately, most binary executables have (seemingly) random
data, so there are no repeating data to compress. On average, the best
*any* archiver can do for any data is about 50% compression. That's why no
one has replaced zip as the virtual Wintel standard, because on average, you
can't really do much better.
// btw, bzip2 has usually about 20% better compression than zip, arj,
// gzip, etc. I wonder if it uses the same methods as RAR? It's also
// very slow.
//
Hmmmm... maybe I'll try it out... I've heard of it, and I'm pretty sure
gnu has a wintel version somewhere. Speed really isn't an issue to me,
though... I'll take higher compression over speed any day.
Pete
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Peter Gavin wrote:
> // Kragen wrote:
> // Every compression program will sometimes enlarge the file. There's a
> // mathematical proof of this, which I don't feel like explaining at the
> // moment, but will explain to whoever asks. At the very
> // least, you need
> // to add a byte or so to the beginning to indicate "this file has not
> // been compressed" --- otherwise, you have to try to decompress it, and
> // then ask the user "is this right?"
>
> It has to do with the premise that (for at least a short section of data)
> there are regular patterns in data, so the compressor replaces long
> stretches of repeating data with one byte, of course making the file
> smaller. Unfortunately, most binary executables have (seemingly) random
> data, so there are no repeating data to compress. On average, the best
> *any* archiver can do for any data is about 50% compression.
No archiver can compress completely random data, even by 1%. No one
has proven any bounds on the compression possible for any particular
kind of nonrandom data, partly because most real nonrandom data is very
difficult to characterize mathematically.
> // btw, bzip2 has usually about 20% better compression than zip, arj,
> // gzip, etc. I wonder if it uses the same methods as RAR? It's also
> // very slow.
>
> Hmmmm... maybe I'll try it out... I've heard of it, and I'm pretty sure
> gnu has a wintel version somewhere. Speed really isn't an issue to me,
> though... I'll take higher compression over speed any day.
It's about twice as slow on compression as gzip, and about thirty times
as slow on decompression. (gzip decompresses about fifteen times as
fast as it compresses, you see, while bzip2 decompresses just as slowly
as it compresses.) I think gzip uses the same compression that zip does.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Peter Gavin wrote:
> This is true, I guess that's where RAR's author got the idea, but the
> difference is, ZIP *doesn't* do it, so that's where RAR has an advantage.
Righto.
BTW, you can get the same effect by creating a .ZIP archive with no
compression, then creating another .zip archive with one file in it --
the first, uncompressed, .zip archive -- and maximum compression.
There's no telling if that's where RAR's author got the idea.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:57:36 -0000
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <dean2@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
Kragen wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Dean-Christian Strik wrote:
>> IF you're not compressing weakly-compressable binaries (exes and such). RAR
>> can then even enlarge the file. It is annoying that this cannot(?) be turned
>> off.
>
>Every compression program will sometimes enlarge the file. There's a
>mathematical proof of this, which I don't feel like explaining at the
>moment, but will explain to whoever asks.
For one, I'd be interested in this.
>At the very least, you need
>to add a byte or so to the beginning to indicate "this file has not
>been compressed" --- otherwise, you have to try to decompress it, and
>then ask the user "is this right?"
My favorite dos archiver (ARJ) has the -js option that allows you to set all files ending
with the extensions given (e.g. -js.zip.arj) to STORE. Can be very useful. Saves a lot of
time (every tried to pack your Quake dir? :-) and some space.
>btw, bzip2 has usually about 20% better compression than zip, arj,
>gzip, etc. I wonder if it uses the same methods as RAR? It's also
>very slow.
Yes. Compare these. These are the latest versions of the linux production kernel:
07/13/98 09:09 5,700,498 linux-2.0.35.tar.bz2
07/13/98 09:09 7,014,087 linux-2.0.35.tar.gz
Does there exist a dos (or even windows) version of bzip2? I have it for linux, but
switching to linux every time to compress isn't very practical (I can't connect to the
internet from linux, so I default to windows :-( ).
- --
Dean-Christian Strik
ICQ: 11760568
dean2@bigfoot.com
cstrik.isg@hetnet.nl
Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations,
software doesnt. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:02:47 -0000
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <dean2@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
Kragen wrote:
>There's no telling if that's where RAR's author got the idea.
Unless we could get to him (her). Anyone found rar's official url yet?
- --
Dean-Christian Strik
ICQ: 11760568
dean2@bigfoot.com
cstrik.isg@hetnet.nl
Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations,
software doesnt. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:19:31 -0000
From: "Dean-Christian Strik" <dean2@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
Pete wrote:
> // btw, bzip2 has usually about 20% better compression than zip, arj,
> // gzip, etc. I wonder if it uses the same methods as RAR? It's also
> // very slow.
> //
>
>Hmmmm... maybe I'll try it out... I've heard of it, and I'm pretty sure
>gnu has a wintel version somewhere. Speed really isn't an issue to me,
>though... I'll take higher compression over speed any day.
The official homepage of bzip2 seems to be http://www.muraroa.demon.co.uk/
and there's a US mirror http://www.digistar.com/bzip2/index.html
The homepage contradicts Kragen's words on speed (but okay, they're not gonna say it's
slow :) :
"bzip2 is a freely available, patent free (see below), high-quality data compressor. It
typically compresses files to within 10% to 15% of the best available techniques, whilst
being around twice as fast at compression and six times faster at decompression".
It doesn't have anything to do with GNU, although open-source (BSD Style license). There
IS a windows version. And a OS/2 version. The supported platforms are:
- PC, Linux 2.0
- Sun Sparc, Solaris 2.5
- Sun Sparc, SunOS 4.1
- PC, Windows 95/NT
- DEC Alpha, Digital Unix 4.0
- IBM RS/6000, AIX 3.2.5
- SGI, Irix 6.4
- PC, OS/2 v3.0
- HP PA/RISC, HPUX 10.20
The latest version of bzip2 available is 0.9.0.
- --
Dean-Christian Strik
ICQ: 11760568
dean2@bigfoot.com
cstrik.isg@hetnet.nl
Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations,
software doesnt. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:21:18 -0700
From: Colleen Johnson <noginspctr@thegrid.net>
Subject: Re: (fractint) High iteratio
Kim Bach Petersen wrote:
> Thanks to you all for your kind interest in my site, I really appreciate it!
>
> I have tried out all your advise:
> Please look by again and feel free to complaint if it doesn't load!
Thanks, Kim. It works now, and it looks great!
Colleen
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen)
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: [fractal-art] Immersive-visualization Solutions
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Dean-Christian Strik wrote:
> Kragen wrote:
> >On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Dean-Christian Strik wrote:
> >> IF you're not compressing weakly-compressable binaries (exes and such). RAR
> >> can then even enlarge the file. It is annoying that this cannot(?) be turned
> >> off.
> >
> >Every compression program will sometimes enlarge the file. There's a
> >mathematical proof of this, which I don't feel like explaining at the
> >moment, but will explain to whoever asks.
>
> For one, I'd be interested in this.
The number of strings of N bits is 2^N. There are two strings with one
bit, four strings with two bits, eight strings with three bits, etc.
This continues on, even up into the millions of bits. Also, there are
2^N-1 strings with *less than* N bits.
OK, so if you have a file that's a million bytes long, then it can be
any of 2^8,000,000 different possible files. And if you have a file
that's a million and one bytes long, it can be any of 2^8,000,008
different possible files. Simple math reveals that, for every file
that's a million bytes long, there are 2^8,000,008/2^8,000,000 = 2^8
different files that are a million and one bytes long. In fact, you
can get this in a more obvious way --- given any file that's a million
bytes long, you can append any of the 2^8 = 256 different bytes to get
a file that's a million and one bytes long.
A compression algorithm is a function that maps strings of bits into
strings of bits. It makes the file shorter if it can map a longer
string of bits into a shorter string of bits. It makes the file longer
if it maps a shorter string of bits into a longer string of bits. The
mapping has to be one-to-one, because you want to decompress the
resulting string of bits later to get the original. If more than one
original compressed into the same string of bits, there'd be no way to
tell which original to reconstruct.
No compression algorithm can compress every million-and-one-byte file
into a file that's a million bytes long or less, because there are only
(2^8,000,001)-1 possible files that are a million bytes long or less,
while there are almost 128 times as many million-and-one-byte files.
Of course, the same argument shows that you can't compress every 500K
file by even one byte, can't compress every 10-byte file by even one byte, etc.
You could do something clever, like come up with 128 different
algorithms, at least one of which would compress the million-and-one
byte file down to a file of a million bytes or less. Then you could
try all 128 algorithms, and just output the result of the one that gave
you the smallest output. But wait! You have to prepend a byte to the
beginning of the file to tell the decompressor *which algorithm* to
decompress with. (Well, seven bits.) It turns out that blows away
your compression.
Make sense?
> Does there exist a dos (or even windows) version of bzip2? I have it for linux, but
> switching to linux every time to compress isn't very practical (I can't connect to the
> internet from linux, so I default to windows :-( ).
Why can't you connect to the Internet from Linux?
I'm sure bzip2 would be pretty easy to compile for DOS.
Kragen
- --
<kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
A well designed system must take people into account. . . . It's hard to
build a system that provides strong authentication on top of systems that
can be penetrated by knowing someone's mother's maiden name. -- Schneier
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
Post Message: fractint@lists.xmission.com
Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help"
Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net
Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint"
------------------------------
End of fractint-digest V1 #315
******************************