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fractint-digest       Wednesday, January 7 1998       Volume 01 : Number 064




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:40:21 -0800
From: Wizzle <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Formula Needed

Pardon me for posting this to the list instead of to Janet Preslar
personally....but my browser is down due to the wonders of the Win95
un-install utility.  It uninstalled a vital file and for some reason the
file gets filtered and won't come thru via emails......<<<sigh>>>>  I will
get it dcc on line later (cause I chat on irc too).

In the mean time....could Janet....or anyone who has it.....send me Linda
Allison's formula for her stars.  Linda sent me an email and said she would
love to give it to me but she is having terrrrrrrrrrrrrrible puter
problems!!!!  December was NOT a good month for many of us <<<another deep
sigh>>>>>.

Angela

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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:52:37 -0800
From: Wizzle <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) sexist fractals

At 09:11 PM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Thomas,
>
>Is this a bathing suit?
>
>There is a brace missing from the last line of the par.
>
>Here is repost as long as I'm at it, for wizzle.  :-)
>Jay
><<snip>>>

Why for me????  I only pondered the possibility of sexist fractals based on
someones comments.....I did not think them up.  Can a computer do sexist
fractals by itself.....no cheating here with human guidance as in the
suggestions for art.  If so...I say we ignore Turing and all the other
mathematicians and vote that computers are people....at least on the same
level as jocks.

Angela

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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 21:43:23 -0500
From: Jack Valero <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) reply to Paul re Name Artist

At 02:43 PM 06/01/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Jack Valero wrote:
>> Yep. That was the start. So how would you judge my predictions?
>
>Pretty darn accurate.  How are you with Stocks and the Lottery??
Not bad on stocks thanks to diversification. Lottery?
Never tried it. I consider it a sneaky and unfair tax imposed
upon the intelligence impaired.

>I found that section (Name the Artist) of your website interesting.
>The easist images to recognize were from Earl Hinrichs (almost instantly)
>and Linda Allison.
Everyone got Linda! I didn't have the opportunity to guess
but I know I would not have guessed well.

>But this was a "trick" question:  twelve images shown, nine artists
>listed in the side bar, two listed in the fine print (at the bottom),
>and one unlisted unknown.  Not exactly a one for one match.
I'm sorry about that and certainly didn't intend any "trick". I
didn't include Margaret's or my name in the side bar list
because we don't view ourselves in the same league. But I did
include our names at the bottom of the pics where I assumed
everyone would find them and understand that our images were
included. Perhaps this assumption was incorrect. The 12th
pic by Ann Onimusse was supposed to be a joke (the name
should have been a clue). It backfired as I got a lot of email
asking who Ann was.

I was curious to see how many would attempt, via email, to
guess her identity. The only one who did was Sylvie Gallet
and she was pretty damned close! In my defence, I would say
that police suspect lines-up often include a ringer. I don't
think this was really cheating, just a surprise twist for a
minor added complication. After all, conceptually the guess
procedure was not compromised. But if others also think this
was a cheat say so and I'll remove Ann Onimusse.


Regards - Jack

visit our fractal gallery: http://www.globalserve.net/~jval/phractal.html

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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:59:59 -0800
From: Wizzle <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Happy New Year!

Jack....

This helps enormously!!!!! I modified my sstools.ini file with GREAT
trepidation based on the ......ahem.....help .....provided at the fractint
site.  Your explanation is MUCH more complete and it is my suggestion that
Noel incorporate it into the fractint documentation dealing with
sstools.ini.   One very basic thing that was NOT explained is that one gets
sstools2.ini in the fractint package.....and to be useful the file needs to
be re-named after the desired changes are made.  I think everyone has done
a marvelous job with the documentation for fractint.....but that questions
like Beth's point out where additions need to be made .......we all have a
knowledge base we tend to forget about when trying to explain something and
that inhibits the transfer of information to anyone who is not at our level
in a particular area.

Thanks again both to Jack and Beth

Angela


At 09:37 AM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Beth,
>At 10:06 PM 05/01/98 +1100, you wrote:
><snip>I
>>havae so far copied frms into fractint itself, and pars into a subdirectory
>>of fractint, but I have no idea how to pull them together to create an
>>image.
>I would also create a subdirectory for your frms and put them in
>there.
>
>>I can call up the frm file, and then get a screen asking for
>>parameters. I don't know what to put into what box,...
>Probably most of us don't know what to put in there. So we
>just plug in different numbers, etc and see what happens-
>often good things do. :) If the box needs a function rather
>than a number just press the left or right arrow key to
>cycle through the functions. I hope I understood your
>question correctly.
>
>>and I thought there was
>>some way of entering an entire par file into fractint, but so far I can't
>>work it out.
>Press the 2 or SHIFT-@ key on the top row of your keyboard.
>This will let you load pars into fractint.
>
>When fractint runs a par that requires an external formula, fractint
>looks wherever you stored your formulae and reads everything
>there until it finds (or doesn't) the formula it needs. But if
>you set up a par subdirectory as recommended, you have to tell
>fractint you did this. You tell fractint by creating an
>SSTOOLS.INI file. This is just a text file that fractint
>will read when it starts up. My SSTOOLS.INI looks like
>this:
>
>[fractint]
>TEMPDIR=c:\windows\temp
>WORKDIR=c:\fractint
>PARMFILE=c:\fractint\parms\jaxdev.par <--- a default par file (optional)
>                                           the important part is
>                                           c:\fractint\parms where I keep
pars
>MAP=c:\fractint\maps                  <--- where I keep colour maps
>FORMULAFILE=c:\fractint\formula       <--- where I keep formulae
>LFILE=c:\fractint\lsys                <--- where I keep L-System files
>IFSFILE=c:\fractint\ifs               <--- where I keep IFS files
>SAVENAME=c:\data\fractint             <--- my default save location for gifs
>FLOAT=yes                             <--- turn on floating point
>TEXTSAFE=save                         <--- video card related
>VIDEO=SF5                             <--- my default screen resolution
>RECORDCOLORS=C                        <--- saves colour palette in gifs
>                                      <--- the next few lines automatically
>                                           insert information for me in
>                                           any par files I create.
>COMMENT=Title_goes_here/\
>CalcTime_$calctime$_at_$xdots$x$ydots$_on_a_486DX-100/\
>Image_Copyright_$month$_$day$_$year$_by_Jack_Valero/\
>e-mail_to:[e-mail]
>
>Of course, your SSTOOLS.INI should *not* include all my comments
>that start with <--- and it should be in the same directory
>as fractint.
>
>All this information is included in the Fractint help but it
>can be very difficult to find when you are just starting.
>Fractint is great but not very friendly by today's standards.
>It seems to be written by programmers for programmers.
>
>I hope this helps.
>
>
>Regards - Jack
>
>visit our fractal gallery: http://www.globalserve.net/~jval/phractal.html
>
>-
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>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 22:01:50 -0500
From: Jack Valero <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Computer warning

At 06:52 PM 06/01/98 -0800, Angela wrote:
>...I say we ignore Turing and all the other
>mathematicians and vote that computers are people....at least on the same
>level as jocks.

WE INTERRUPT WITH THIS SPECIAL WARNING:

It has recently come to my attention that Pandora,
my computer, has subscribed to this list under my name and
without my knowledge or consent. Any comments from her
with which you agree she probably overheard from me. The
rest were undoubtably her own opinions. She is also
claiming we could not produce our fractals without her!

YOU MAY CONTINUE NOW...
Regards - Jack

visit our fractal gallery: http://www.globalserve.net/~jval/phractal.html

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 19:23:37 -0800
From: Wizzle <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Computer warning

Close the box quick, Jack


At 10:01 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:52 PM 06/01/98 -0800, Angela wrote:
>>...I say we ignore Turing and all the other
>>mathematicians and vote that computers are people....at least on the same
>>level as jocks.
>
>WE INTERRUPT WITH THIS SPECIAL WARNING:
>
>It has recently come to my attention that Pandora,
>my computer, has subscribed to this list under my name and
>without my knowledge or consent. Any comments from her
>with which you agree she probably overheard from me. The
>rest were undoubtably her own opinions. She is also
>claiming we could not produce our fractals without her!
>
>YOU MAY CONTINUE NOW...
>Regards - Jack
>
>visit our fractal gallery: http://www.globalserve.net/~jval/phractal.html
>
>-
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 19:47:42 -0800
From: Wizzle <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Asteroid_mset

Paul....

thank you so much for another marvelous formula.  I have a question
regardring the color mapping...it is unusual in that it is not smoothed
from color to color...but it fits perfectly with the image.

This leads me to guess that here is some sort of mathematical relationship
between the colors and the formula...am I right??? or did you get tha
perfect color set just by hard hit and miss work???  It was truly
lovely...and I am looking forward to messing around with the formula

Angela

ps...you can email me directly at [e-mail] and I can post
your reply

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 21:26:17 -0600
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Name Artist

Jack,


 - Everyone got Linda! I didn't have the opportunity to guess
 - but I know I would not have guessed well.

I got about half, but that was while you were building the page and there
were fewer choices. :)  I got Linda, Lee, and Kerry.
 - But if others also think this was a cheat say so and I'll
 - remove Ann Onimusse.

It's a little subtle, some folks might miss the gag.  Perhaps if you make
it more obvious, you'll get more guessers...

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  http://www.icd.com/tsd/  (temporary sanity designs)
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby)


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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:06:48 -0500
From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Tan_Spirals & Optillus

- ----------------------------------------------------------
This formula and PAR file produce a nice optical illusion.
It appears as if there are two overlaid spirals, spiralling
in opposite directions.

Tan_Spirals {; Copyright (c) Paul W. Carlson, 1997
    width =3D real(p2), ratio =3D 124 / width, w =3D pixel, z =3D 0
    iter =3D 0, toggle =3D -1:
    ;
    w =3D p1 * tan(w)
    awr =3D abs(real(w))
    awi =3D abs(imag(w))
    IF (awr < awi)
    minw =3D awr
    ELSE
    minw =3D awi
    ENDIF
    bailout =3D (minw < width && |w| <=3D p3)
    toggle =3D -1 * toggle
    iter =3D iter + 1
    IF (bailout)
    z =3D ratio * minw + (toggle > 0) * 125 + 1
    ENDIF
    z =3D z - iter
    bailout =3D=3D 0
}


optillus           { ; Copyright (c) Paul W. Carlson, 1997
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Dctn.frm
  formulaname=3DTan_Spirals
  passes=3D1 center-mag=3D-1.44329e-015/7.77156e-016/3.774093
  params=3D0.3/-0.9/0.001/0/5e-006/0
  float=3Dy maxiter=3D252 inside=3D253
  outside=3Dsumm colors=3D000Vzz<123>0GGzVz<123>F0G000<3>000
  }


Paul Carlson
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
                email   [e-mail]

WWW Fractal Galleries   http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/carlson.htm
                        http://fractal.mta.ca/fractals/carlson/
                        http://www.cnam.fr/fractals/carlson.html
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:19:59 -0800
From: "Steve Jenks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The dreaded aaaaaa's again :(

Peter Moreland wrote:

>>>Back in the "(fractint) text editor" there was various discussion on =
how
>to
>>>rid text files of the dreaded accented 'a'.
>>>
>>>One suggestion was to download PFE, Which I did...
>>>
>>>Having copied par text from outlook, pasted it into PFE saves out as =
a
>*.par
>>>file.... it still has the a's when read by fractint!
>>>
>>>Am I missing something with PFE, could whoever suggested (don't have =
the
>>>posting anymore) PFE help me out.
>>>
>>You don't mention it: did you do any editing (a global =
search-&-replace,
>>perhaps?)
>
>
><snip>
>
>Well... You can't edit or search and replace the a's if you can't see =
them!
>The whole point is that they are not visible in email or when pasted =
into
>PFE.
>They *are* visible when read by FractInt..


Peter: I found myself in the same boat. I did a little research and =
found out that the forward slash accented a is defined as ASCII decimal =
value of 160.=20

How do you get that? Well, you start with the Num Lock on. Then press =
the Alt key and hold it down. While holding down the Alt key, key in 160 =
on the *number* pad (not the keyboard). When you let up the Alt key, =
viola, you get an accented a like this =E1.=20

This doesn't work in PFE (as previously suggested) or Notepad or =
Wordpad, but it does work in my old DOS text editor. I can see the =
accented a's and I can do a "search and replace" and clean out the file =
just as slick as you please. Give it a try and let me know how it works.

Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:28:40 -0800
From: "Jay Hill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Yet another unreadable formula from Paul Carlson

Hi Fractintiers,

I noticed Sylvie's posts in the archives are mangled. That means several
of you can't read her posts of Paul Carlson's formulae without difficulty.
You know who you are, so if you don't tell anyone... You know that...
whisper....=3D problem...buzzz-bnuzzzz...crypto message...whisper...
look...QUIET!...as I was saying....bzzzzbzzzzbzz....secret place....
http://home.san.rr.com/jayrhill/CARLSON.PAR
.......whisper...find... don't tell....enjoy....OK?
And if you mess around... you might find...turkey like I got....strange
formula!
Oh, what'd you say Paul?.....Oh, nothing. Nothing at all.  Just looking.
Lost my bowling ball in here somewhere....  Oh my, not again!  I'm seeing
double again!  Got to get off the coffee!!  Wait, it's not the coffee! I'm
falling...
falling into a worm hole...  whaaah  WHAAhaaaahhaaaa-a-a a  aa   aa ......

Just_Looking       { ; (c) Jay Hill, 1998
                     ; Uses Paul Carlson's formula
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=3dballsm.par
  formulaname=3d_balls_mset
  center-mag=-0.77649538589904040/+0.11936080133555930/1692.849/1/52.499
  params=0.0065/150/8/30 float=y maxiter=3000 inside=253 outside=summ
  colors=000c40<28>zW0aG0<28>zz00C4<28>0zR0CC<28>0zz00O<23>DDrDDtEEuEEwFFx\
  GGzI0K<28>fOzO08<28>z0fO00<28>z88000<13>000
  savename=Justlook
  }

My_Bowling_Pins       { ; (c) Jay Hill, 1998
                     ; Uses Paul Carlson's formula
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=3dballsm.par
  formulaname=3d_balls_mset
  center-mag=-0.74108823307987630/+0.16451021799917670/5935.806/1/-165
  params=0.0065/150/8/30 float=y maxiter=3000 inside=253 outside=summ
  colors=000c40<28>zW0aG0<28>zz00C4<28>0zR0CC<28>0zz00O<23>DDrDDtEEuEEwFFx\
  GGzI0K<28>fOzO08<28>z0fO00<28>z88000<13>000
  savename=Bowling
  }

Seeing_Double      { ; (c) Jay Hill, 1998
                     ; Uses Paul Carlson's formula
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=3dballsm.par
  formulaname=3d_balls_mset
  center-mag=-0.74135813610222160/+0.16435883540279430/6329.114/1/39.999
  params=0.0065/150/8/30 float=y maxiter=3000 inside=253 outside=summ
  colors=000c40<28>zW0aG0<28>zz00C4<28>0zR0CC<28>0zz00O<23>DDrDDtEEuEEwFFx\
  GGzI0K<28>fOzO08<28>z0fO00<28>z88000<13>000
  savename=Seeing2
  }


Worm_Hole          { ; (c) Jay Hill, 1998
                     ; Uses Paul Carlson's formula
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=3dballsm.par
  formulaname=3d_balls_mset
  center-mag=-0.00259591280259474/+0.64177231240735930/1818.261/1/70
  params=0.0065/150/8/30 float=y maxiter=3000 inside=253 outside=summ
  colors=000c40<28>zW0aG0<28>zz00C4<28>0zR0CC<28>0zz00O<23>DDrDDtEEuEEwFFx\
  GGzI0K<28>fOzO08<28>z0fO00<28>z88000<13>000
  savename=wormhole
  }

Jay


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:16:25 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Happy New Year!

Wizzle wrote:

> Jack....
>
> This helps enormously!!!!! I modified my sstools.ini file with GREAT
> trepidation based on the ......ahem.....help .....provided at the fractint
> site.  Your explanation is MUCH more complete and it is my suggestion that
> Noel incorporate it into the fractint documentation dealing with
> sstools.ini.

I'd be delighted to add any improved docs to Fractint. In fact I'd
encourage folks to submit improvements. Remember, Fractint is a group
project. Helping with docs is a way non-programmers can participate.

One little know secret is that with the help compiler hc.exe that
comes with the Fractint source code, anyone can edit the help source
files and add them to Fractint, as long as the hypertext links are
not changed. I'd be willing to post the hc.exe file if anyone wants
to try this.

I'm asleep at the switch, so if someone (preferably Jack, since he
is the author) could email me the improved sstools explanation, I'd
appreciate it.

Tim





  One very basic thing that was NOT explained is
that one gets
> sstools2.ini in the fractint package.....and to be useful the file needs to
> be re-named after the desired changes are made.  I think everyone has done
> a marvelous job with the documentation for fractint.....but that questions
> like Beth's point out where additions need to be made .......we all have a
> knowledge base we tend to forget about when trying to explain something and
> that inhibits the transfer of information to anyone who is not at our level
> in a particular area.
>
> Thanks again both to Jack and Beth
>
> Angela
>
>
> At 09:37 AM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Beth,
> >At 10:06 PM 05/01/98 +1100, you wrote:
> ><snip>I
> >>havae so far copied frms into fractint itself, and pars into a subdirectory
> >>of fractint, but I have no idea how to pull them together to create an
> >>image.
> >I would also create a subdirectory for your frms and put them in
> >there.
> >
> >>I can call up the frm file, and then get a screen asking for
> >>parameters. I don't know what to put into what box,...
> >Probably most of us don't know what to put in there. So we
> >just plug in different numbers, etc and see what happens-
> >often good things do. :) If the box needs a function rather
> >than a number just press the left or right arrow key to
> >cycle through the functions. I hope I understood your
> >question correctly.
> >
> >>and I thought there was
> >>some way of entering an entire par file into fractint, but so far I can't
> >>work it out.
> >Press the 2 or SHIFT-@ key on the top row of your keyboard.
> >This will let you load pars into fractint.
> >
> >When fractint runs a par that requires an external formula, fractint
> >looks wherever you stored your formulae and reads everything
> >there until it finds (or doesn't) the formula it needs. But if
> >you set up a par subdirectory as recommended, you have to tell
> >fractint you did this. You tell fractint by creating an
> >SSTOOLS.INI file. This is just a text file that fractint
> >will read when it starts up. My SSTOOLS.INI looks like
> >this:
> >
> >[fractint]
> >TEMPDIR=c:\windows\temp
> >WORKDIR=c:\fractint
> >PARMFILE=c:\fractint\parms\jaxdev.par <--- a default par file (optional)
> >                                           the important part is
> >                                           c:\fractint\parms where I keep
> pars
> >MAP=c:\fractint\maps                  <--- where I keep colour maps
> >FORMULAFILE=c:\fractint\formula       <--- where I keep formulae
> >LFILE=c:\fractint\lsys                <--- where I keep L-System files
> >IFSFILE=c:\fractint\ifs               <--- where I keep IFS files
> >SAVENAME=c:\data\fractint             <--- my default save location for gifs
> >FLOAT=yes                             <--- turn on floating point
> >TEXTSAFE=save                         <--- video card related
> >VIDEO=SF5                             <--- my default screen resolution
> >RECORDCOLORS=C                        <--- saves colour palette in gifs
> >                                      <--- the next few lines automatically
> >                                           insert information for me in
> >                                           any par files I create.
> >COMMENT=Title_goes_here/\
> >CalcTime_$calctime$_at_$xdots$x$ydots$_on_a_486DX-100/\
> >Image_Copyright_$month$_$day$_$year$_by_Jack_Valero/\
> >e-mail_to:[e-mail]
> >
> >Of course, your SSTOOLS.INI should *not* include all my comments
> >that start with <--- and it should be in the same directory
> >as fractint.
> >
> >All this information is included in the Fractint help but it
> >can be very difficult to find when you are just starting.
> >Fractint is great but not very friendly by today's standards.
> >It seems to be written by programmers for programmers.
> >
> >I hope this helps.
> >
> >
> >Regards - Jack
> >
> >visit our fractal gallery: http://www.globalserve.net/~jval/phractal.html
> >
> >-
> >------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
> -
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>
>

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 00:08:53 -0600
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) reply to Paul re Name Artist

Jack Valero wrote:
>
> But if others also think this was a cheat say so and
> I'll remove Ann Onimusse.
>

Personally, subtleties are lost on me, not to mention hints.

I would have listed the name as a choice, and spelled it more like Ann
Nonimus or Naim Less.

P.N.L.

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 19:18:26 +1300
From: "Morgan L. Owens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The dreaded aaaaaa's again :(

At 12:12 06/01/98 -0000, Peter Moreland wrote:
>
>
>Well... You can't edit or search and replace the a's if you can't see them!
>The whole point is that they are not visible in email or when pasted into
>PFE.
>They *are* visible when read by FractInt..
>
Ah, that doesn't sound like a PFE problem - at least I know of no possible
cause.

Perhaps if you email me the offending file, I could have a bash at making
sense of what's going on. In the meantime, you might try TYPEing it in a
DOS window and seeing if they show up there.

You know, I'm starting to get the feeling I'm missing some of the traffic
on this list... I'll look in the archive, but why would I be missing them?

Ah, now I'm sure of it! _Accented lowercase a characters_, yes? á in
ISO entity name lingo!

The thing is, Fractint is reading ASCII 160 as an á - as this is the
code (MS-) DOS assigns the character, while in Truetype (invented by Apple,
remember) and most other fonts used by Windows, including PFE and clearly
whatever your email software uses, ASCII 160 refers to a nonbreaking space.
So that's why you can't see it. So try searching with PFE for "ALT+0160"
and see if that catches what look like spaces in the locations where a's
are turning up in Fractint. To confirm, you can change PFE's screen font
("options>preferences->screen font") to "Terminal" to use a DOS-type font.

Morgan L. Owens



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:48:11 -0000
From: Edward Avis <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) RE: fractint-digest V1 #63

> what your son is referring to... Note that from a scientific standpoint,
> the term "computer" as used here >includes a computer like the human
> brain.
>

> No, it doesn't.  The human brain is not a Turing machine in any shape or
> form, and does not work algorithmically.  Hence there are propositions
> (Godel's theorem being the first example) which we humans can see as
> "obvious" (or least mathematicians can!), but are provably impossible for
a
> computer to "understand".

   er... not sure I know what you mean by "see as 'obvious'" or
"'understand'" here. I don't know how to discuss what a computer does or
does not "understand". A computer, however, can certainly re-create the
proof of Godel's theorem by following the same logical steps.

My understanding was that it could not.  That is the whole point of Godel's
theorem.

   To clarify my previous statement, which is admittedly controversial as
stated: From the standpoint of theoretical computer-science modeling of
computing, no aspect of the human brain which has been found
scientifically describable, appears to be exempt from the models of
automata theory which leads to the proofs about Turing machines. This
does not suggest that we understand processes of thought or that emergent
properties cannot exist; but assuming that all functions of the brain do
in fact ultimately depend on the physical nature of the brain, all
its low-level physical or chemical processes can indeed be modeled as
automata, and the proofs do thus apply.

This assumes that physical laws are deterministic and algorithmic...

I'm afraid I'm not an expert on this topic, but I refer you to two books by
Roger Penrose, "The Emperor's New Mind", and "Shadows Of The Mind", which
explain all this quite well.

- --
Ed Avis
[e-mail]
http://members.tripod.com/~mave/index.html



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:30:16 +1300
From: "Morgan L. Owens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Computer (as) Artist AND fractint-digest V1 #62

<Lowers oar to the water; begins paddling>

From Jason Hine:
>This question is one I have wondered if fractals might be a good
application for
>(what a horrible sentence that was, eh?)... E.F. Schumaker (a philosopher)
>points out that there are basically two types of problems, convergent and
>divergent.  For a convergent problem, many starting solutions can be refined
>into a single, optimum solution.  I think the evolution of the bicycle is the
>example he gives for this... a divergent problem, on the other hand, has
two (or
>more?) optimum solutions, and which solution is the right one becomes a
matter
>of intrinsic or personal values. Ask any statistician and she will tell
you that
>values are too flighty to be modelled - enter fractals.  Or at least,
that's the
>idea.
>
Err? I always get suspicious of philosophers (or philosopher-scientists)
who try to take mathematical or physical concepts out of their home
domain and apply them willy-nilly. So often rigour is sacrificed in
favour of a nifty metaphor or convenient analogy.

From Wizzle:
>It wasn't the turing machine proof......I know about that one (ex hubby got
>phd in computer science and tried to explain that to me).....son says this
>is a recent proof from a mathematician....if there is interest I will get
>the name of the guy...I know my son's name already.
>
The Turing machine proof? Is this the Godelian proof that Roger Penrose
concocted? If it is, then what's the other one (respond privately if you
wish)? I'm familiar with the proof I mentioned, and never _quite_ been
convinced by it.

From Ed Avis:
>No, it doesn't.  The human brain is not a Turing machine in any shape or
>form, and does not work algorithmically.  Hence there are propositions
>(Godel's theorem being the first example) which we humans can see as
>"obvious" (or least mathematicians can!), but are provably impossible for a
>computer to "understand".
>
Not proven. Not enough is known about the human brain to confirm whether
it is a Turing machine or not. It can simulate a Turing machine and do
everything a Turing machine can do, but it is not proven that it can do
anything more. The Penrose objection mentioned above (the best anti AI
argument I am aware of) is, as Penrose himself admits, not rigorous and
crucial points are covered with handwaving.


In my opinion, the whole question is moot. It's quite clear that minds
are _physically_ possible (everyone is their own best existence proof).
So what if it turns out that our notion of computability is insufficent?
It's only our notion and we're quite capable of extending it if and when
it turns out to be needed.

This topic comes at an apposite time for me, as I'm currently attending
a conference on unconventional models of computation. Mainly quantum and
DNA models - formal abstractions, implementations, possible
applications, their prospects for exponential speedup of problem-
solving, etc. Reversible logic and cellular automata are also highly
featured. There are considerations on the possible noncomputable
capabilities of some quantum approaches, but since there is no
noncomputable behaviour in present-day quantum mechanics (and hence none
in the rest of physics - hence chemistry hence biology hence brain
function) "computability" for the most part retains its "classical"
sense of "something that can be done on a Turing machine" (though there
is one paper that has yet to be presented titled "Even Turing machines
can compute noncomputable functions").

I regard intelligent, conscious and aesthetically sensitve machines as
inevitable. Eventually. Not yet. My running(!) copy of Windows 95 takes
159MB on disk (though it has no excuse being that large for what it
does), and that is still some way from the 3GB of the human genome
(though I'm sure  Monopolysoft is working on more bugware to force down
our throats!) The largest software application I know of still fits in
executable form on a single 680MB CD-ROM. On the other hand it has been
estimated that memory on the order of 10TB would be needed for storing
a human mind, and probably quite a bit more in an executable form. But
how long ago was it that Bill Gates was saying that noone would ever
need more than 640kB?

I take on the penalty of an off-topic post. If you want to discuss this
with me privately I would be happy to do so.

Morgan L. Owens

<And now for that penalty par...>

HelmetII           { ; Another, even better helmet. Chrome Boffo!
  reset=1100 type=formula formulafile=evenmore.frm
  formulaname=oscillatorjul passes=b
  center-mag=0.150198/0/0.6666667/1/90 params=3.14159265358979/0/4/0
  float=y inside=255 decomp=256
  colors=zzzooojjj<2>bbb___YYYWWW<3>QQQPPPOOONNNLLL<15>888888777777777<8>2\
  22222222222222<22>000000111<13>444555555666777<8>BBBCCCDDDEEEFFF<3>IIIJJ\
  JLLL<4>QQQSSSTTTVVVWWW<5>jjjooozzzooojjj<2>bbb___YYYWWW<3>QQQPPPOOONNNLL\
  L<15>888888777777777<8>222222222222222<22>000000111<13>444555555666777<8\
  >BBBCCCDDDEEEFFF<3>IIIJJJLLL<4>QQQSSSTTTVVVWWW<5>jjjooo
  }

frm:OscillatorJul(XAxis){; Should be a dynamical orbit, really
;Source: Ian Stewart: "Portraits of Chaos"
;The New Scientist Guide to Chaos
;(Penguin Books, 1991)
bailout=real(p2)
p=real(p1)
z=pixel:
x=real(z)
y=imag(z)
t=2*(sqr(x)+sqr(y))-p
x=t*x-(sqr(x)-sqr(y))/2
y=(t+x)*y
z=x+flip(y)
|z|<=bailout}



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:04:34 -0500
From: "Jason Hine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Computer (as) Artist

Wizzle came back:

>It wasn't the turing machine proof......I know about that one (ex hubby got
>phd in computer science and tried to explain that to me).....son says this
>is a recent proof from a mathematician....if there is interest I will get
>the name of the guy...I know my son's name already.

I'm interested in the name of the guy...  Jason


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:02:40 -0500
From: "Jason Hine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Yet another f

Paul provided:
>Astroid_Mset  {; Copyright (c) Paul W. Carlson, 1997<<

Wow, geez... most excellent!  I sure hope you figure out how to post directly to
the list someday, but in the meantime, thanks to the middleperson (Wizzle,
right?) :)  Carry on, Jason


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------------------------------

End of fractint-digest V1 #64
*****************************