ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/fractint/archive/fractint.9710

Internet Message Format | 1997-10-29 | 847KB

From: Roelf Renkema <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 01 Oct 1997 09:15:40 +0100

Still can't get 9.6 up and running on my machine. I installed a new
graphics card but it still won't go.
Is does run an older machine but this baby here says no and:

I'm using the dos version 19.6.
Now under DOS it just won't startup and crashes my system (a Cyrix 486-dx2
66Mhz)
Under Win95 I get the message that it's using a wrong instruction and halts on
391D:0BE0 interupts used none

BTW I Got the right archive I followed Noels messies on that

So I think (but who am I) that there is a problem in the code.

So I now give you Fractint programmers the option:

Turn the code upside down
or
Deliver a new window version

or else

I will go play somewhere else.

Ha must be a hard choice for you guys and girls &8-D



Greetz Grey
--                                            _/_/|
        grey@nym,alias.net                 (o(o) \
          ' The Wolf '                  OO~~     /
                                        \--__   ,/
    "I like'm sweet and wet"            |/~  `-'

 Proud member of nl.erotiek.bdsm


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From: cindy mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) 3D Formula
Date: 01 Oct 1997 01:28:32 -0700

Both Linda and Rich were correct. My 3D comes after each and every " = "
sign, also at the end of each line in the color section. So along with
deleting I have to reformat.

I am so glad for this forum. It is nice to know there are so many fractint
enthusiast
out there.
        Thank You,
             Cindy



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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 01 Oct 1997 09:39:13 -0400 (EDT)


If you try some guy's frm file and see nothing/garbage, try:

* maxiter=2000
* float=y
* zooming out, zooming in
* outside=iter/viewwindows=n/inside=0/color cycle (just in case your
  palette is goofed up or you set inside=outside=0 or something!)
* Check the z screen. Some formulas use a parameter as a bailout. If you
  use the default 0 you'll get nothing. Look for a comment saying "use
  small nonzero number for p2" or large number or whatever, and look for the
  formula ending with something like lastsqr<=p2 or something. Try a big
  real number for p1 or p2, then the other, then small numbers like 0.001.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 01 Oct 1997 10:26:06 -0700


Greetz Grey wrote:

>So I think (but who am I) that there is a problem in the code.

There may be the possibility that your Cyrix 486-dx2 chip is bad, over
speed or getting too hot.
On the Merseene list, there have been extensive discussions about Non-Intel
chips
(specifically Pentium level) not performing as well as Intel on
mathematical processes.

The guts of the Merseene algorithm (http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm) are
used
by Intel as part of their spot test of the processors.


Jay



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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 01 Oct 1997 11:19:44 -0700


Charles wrote:

>Looking at the center of a side at a considerable magnification and a
count
of 1023 it appears that we have a smooth border.


Well it still has a smooth vorder with maxiter = 1e9.  But the edge moved
in a little.
Strange....

Jay


Fig3               { ; raise count and zoom to edge
                     ; looks like smooth lines still
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=dewey.frm formulaname=test97c
  center-mag=-0.11277288466532970/+0.22362335945091970/1525879
  params=0/-1 float=y maxiter=1023000000
  colors=0D0000<15>9Tx<24>24N13M12K00I00H<14>001000000<2>800B00F10I10<4>W4\
  0Z50a60c70e80g90jB0<2>oE0qF0sH0tJ0vK0wM0xN0<4>zV0zW0yT0<2>sJ0qF0nE0mE0<4\
  >Z80W60T50Q30O30<3>E10C00B00<10>100000100200<5>B0AD0CE0F<20>k0w<7>N0QK0M\
  J0L<17>401000<2>010020040<26>0d00f00e0<25>080060050030020000000
  }




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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 02 Oct 1997 09:58:27 -0400 (EDT)

>>Looking at the center of a side at a considerable magnification and a
>count
>of 1023 it appears that we have a smooth border.
>
>
>Well it still has a smooth vorder with maxiter = 1e9.  But the edge moved
>in a little.

Could you resend that Charles? Some copies of it got garbled in the mail
system. Mine for instance came out "1e9" :-)


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Dewey Odhner)
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 02 Oct 1997 10:21:52 EDT

> From: [e-mail] (MR CHARLES F CROCKER)
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:35:18, -0500
...
> Looking at the center of a side at a considerable magnification and a count
> of 1023 it appears that we have a smooth border. But if we go down closer
> to the chaotic appearing area and raise the count we see high count
> filaments creeping twords the center. I suspect that at high enough counts
> and magnification the apparently smooth side will break up everywhere.

You are probably right.  I retract my conjecture that there is a
neighborhood where the boundary has fractal dimension 1.  But those
filaments that cluster against the smooth part of the boundary do not
attach to the smooth part, but around the ends.  Thus I still
conjecture that it is non-locally connected.

--Dewey

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From: Roelf Renkema <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 02 Oct 1997 17:51:42 +0100

Op 10:26 1-10-97 -0700 schreef Jay Hill zoiets als:
>
>Greetz Grey wrote:
>
>>So I think (but who am I) that there is a problem in the code.
>
>There may be the possibility that your Cyrix 486-dx2 chip is bad, over
>speed or getting too hot.

Na it must be somewhere in the instructionset. If it would be the latter
then it should occure with other software to and I'm sorry to say that only
Fractint troubles me. But I will check. Tomorow I will try the proccessor
from my other computer on which Fractint runs without problems,in this one.
Talk about debugging &8-)

>On the Merseene list, there have been extensive discussions about Non-Intel
>chips
>(specifically Pentium level) not performing as well as Intel on
>mathematical processes.
>
>The guts of the Merseene algorithm (http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm) are
>used
>by Intel as part of their spot test of the processors.
>
>
>Jay

Thanx for the tip anyway, we will see I keep you folks posted.

Gray.

Greetz Grey
--                                            _/_/|
        grey@nym,alias.net                 (o(o) \
          ' The Wolf '                  OO~~     /
                                        \--__   ,/
    "I like'm sweet and wet"            |/~  `-'

 Proud member of nl.erotiek.bdsm


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: A M Kelley <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Centering problem
Date: 02 Oct 1997 15:34:40 -0400 (EDT)

--1920402471-743720403-875820975:#23014
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Is there any way to center this fellow? --Alice

--1920402471-743720403-875820975:#23014
Content-Type: APPLICATION/octet-stream; name="center.par"
Content-ID: <Pine.3.07.9710021515.A23014@login>
Content-Description:

Flying_squirrel    { ; [e-mail]
  reset=1960 type=julfn+zsqrd function=ident passes=1
  center-mag=-0.42372894500000010/-0.00009917999999998/0.7528158/0.9997
  params=-0.85162353515625/0.4166107177734375 maxiter=300
  bailoutest=and inside=bof60 logmap=yes symmetry=yaxis
  colors=Y0Azzm<5>yoRxmNxkJwiFvfD<3>qU6pR4oQ4<12>ZC5YB5W96U87T77R58<6>iVG<\
  14>vqgwsiwsh<13>wjHwiFwiF<10>mZFlXFkWFjUEiTE<9>ZEBXCAXCA<29>mZEn_FmZFlYF\
  kXF<2>jVEjUEiTDiSC<5>gM9gL8gL8fK8<12>YD9XCAXDA<13>hSCiUDiUEiVEiVEjWFiVG<\
  14>vqgwsiwsh<14>wiFD12A00<7>V09`0C<25>yxl
  }


--1920402471-743720403-875820975:#23014--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Centering problem
Date: 02 Oct 1997 15:58:52 -0400

Alice,

 - Is there any way to center this fellow? --Alice

Sure.  Press "z", F6, enter "0" for Center X.  Hit return twice.

Unless this is not what you mean...

Neat picture.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Centering problem
Date: 02 Oct 1997 16:25:10 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-02 15:43:50 EDT, you write:

<<
 Is there any way to center this fellow? --Alice
  >>

Alice,
This fractal is a Julia which does not have y axis symmetry. Since you forced
symmetry with Y center not equal to zero, you image was offset. I tinkered
with the par by setting the Y center to zero and changing the magnification a
little. The center part of the image seems to changed a little bit. This is a
really nice image. Here is the modified par:

Ron Barnett

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Flying_squirrel2   { ; t=  0:00:17.14
                     ; On a 486 66 at 320 x 200
  reset=1960 type=julfn+zsqrd function=ident passes=1
  center-mag=+0.00225067000000001/+0.00061798499999999/0.6502007/0.9995
  params=-0.85162353515625/0.4166107177734375 maxiter=300
  bailoutest=and inside=bof60 logmap=yes symmetry=yaxis
  colors=Y0Azzm<5>yoRxmNxkJwiFvfD<3>qU6pR4oQ4<12>ZC5YB5W96U87T77R58<5>fRFi\
  VGjXI<13>vqgwsiwsh<13>wjHwiFwiF<10>mZFlXFkWFjUEiTE<7>`HC_GBZEBXCAXCA<29>\
  mZEn_FmZF<2>kWFjWEjVEjUE<7>gM9gL8gL8fK8<12>YD9XCAXDA<13>hSCiUDiUEiVEiVEj\
  WFiVG<14>vqgwsiwsh<14>wiFD12A00<7>V09`0C<25>yxl
  }

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Date: 02 Oct 1997 19:27:30 -0700

Hi,
I have a possibly dumb question? Can someone tell me who GeneDeWeese is?
Sorry, only kidding. What I am really wondering about is how to post a
FRACTINT formula and/or parameter file. Do people somehow save them as text
files and attach them to their messages? I gather they are not typed out by
hand. I wld appreciate any tips, as I might be so bold as to post some for
anyone interested. Also thanks for the recent answers to my question about
anti-aliasing -- the   signal processing analogy, I think, is quite
brilliant, gives me a very good picture of the process.

                Thanks,
                Peter Jakubowicz



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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 02 Oct 1997 21:46:10 -0600

Greetz wrote:

> Na it must be somewhere in the instructionset. If it would be the latter
> then it should occure with other software to and I'm sorry to say that only
> Fractint troubles me.

Sometimes non-standard hardware hangs when hardware tests are made.
One strategy is to try to disable hardware tests. Have you read the
"common problems in the docs"? Try these one at a time on the command
line:

fpu=noiit
fpu=387
adapter=vga
vesadetect=no

Just fishing for a possible answer to your Cyrix problem.

Tim




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (MR CHARLES F CROCKER)
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 02 Oct 1997 23:48:44, -0500


   Paul said "Some copies of it got garbled in the mail system. Mine for
instance came out "1e9""

Mine came out 1e9 also. That's less than half of what Fractints good for.
Actually that was Jay's comment. The count skyrockets so fast that most of
the high counts occur in a very narrow region and the main figure gets into
a loop so fast that times are reasonable until magnification gets quite
high. I am willing to accept on faith that the border will eventually breakup.

As an example of how far you might have to go here are three par files for
a point near the main figure and close to the obviously brokenup area.

Fig1               { ; Solid high count band,almost
                     ; P90  time  0:06:49.69
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=dewey.frm formulaname=test97c
  center-mag=-0.49040957924146630/+0.05334815365641891/4.563969e+009
  params=0/-1 float=y maxiter=16384 inside=40
  viewwindows=4.2/0.75/yes/0/0
  }

Fig2               { ; Isolated dot becomes line
                     ; P90 time  0:03:05.71
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=dewey.frm formulaname=test97c
  center-mag=-0.49040957899188690/+0.05334815373397910/9.127939e+010
  params=0/-1 float=y maxiter=16384 inside=40
  viewwindows=4.2/0.75/yes/0/0
  }

Fig3               { ; Which contains other solid lines
                     ; P90 time  0:08:00.60
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=dewey.frm formulaname=test97c
  center-mag=-0.49040957899188690/+0.05334815373630590/9.127916e+011
  params=0/-1 float=y maxiter=16384 inside=40
  viewwindows=4.2/0.75/yes/0/0
  }

I set inside color to 40 to make the high count area readily apparent. This
is as far as my patience lasted. Sort of like using an electron microscope
to examine the road before a cross country trip. Might be a little hard to
locate all the side roads.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roelf Renkema <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 03 Oct 1997 14:43:38 +0100

Now the problem is getting weirder.

Dig this....

I tried another graphic card NO DO
and now
I tried another processor NO DO

This other proccessor came from a computer where fractint had no problem at
all. I'm spooked. It can't be that the second graphic card gives also
trouble could it? Its a diamond stealth 2400 with 4 mb on board. Something
weird is going on.

Well atleast my pc got a complete overhaul &8-)

Greetz Grey
--                                            _/_/|
        grey@nym,alias.net                 (o(o) \
          ' The Wolf '                  OO~~     /
                                        \--__   ,/
    "I like'm sweet and wet"            |/~  `-'

 Proud member of nl.erotiek.bdsm

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 03 Oct 1997 11:00:33 -0700


VRCH78B wrote:

>I set inside color to 40 to make the high count area readily apparent.
This
>is as far as my patience lasted. Sort of like using an electron microscope
>to examine the road before a cross country trip. Might be a little hard to
>locate all the side roads.

I set your iteration limit up by a factor of 100 and find your Fig3 is not
at the edge.

Looking at the orbits, I see the smooth triangular interior region has
period =1.
Now we should be able to solve by Newton's mehtod, if need be, for the
boundary
and show it has smooth sides.  It looks to me that only in the corners is
it otherwise.

My $.03 worth.

Jay



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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 03 Oct 1997 17:16:49 -0600

Roelf asked:

> It can't be that the second graphic card gives also
> trouble could it? Its a diamond stealth 2400 with 4 mb on board. Something
> weird is going on.

A video board could hang fractint because of the tests for video
boards on runup. This can be positively checked by using the
adapter=vga commandline option. If Fractint still hangs with that
option it's not video.

Are you positive you have a good copy of Fractint? Did you change
the complete motherboard or just the CPU chip? ARe you sure the
memory is OK?

If you swap out *everything* it should work <g!>

Tim


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 03 Oct 1997 18:14:57 -0500

Howdy!
My name is Merle L. Newsted Jr. but please call me Nuke.
I've had an interest in fractals for about two years. A friend lent me a
copy of Mandelbrot's "Fractal geometry of Nature". out of sight!

Well. I searched the web and found Fractint 19.5 about six months ago,
and I 've had a lot of fun with it. Thanks .
Now here is my first serious attempt at writing my own fractal. I used
the tutorial for L-system fractals on the spanky web site.
I made a really beautiful desktop screen for windows by running a 12
iterations (i think) and then cycling the colors till the "trunk" brown
and the tips were a purpley pink "flower".
Well. If anybody tries it I'd like to know what you think.
later
nuke)*(

Fltree(with color) {    ;author Nuke - My first real attempt
    Angle 32
    Axiom +++++++++X
    X=<01F[@.64+++X]-F[@.29---X]@.5X
    }

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From: Roelf Renkema <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 04 Oct 1997 08:41:17 +0100

Op 17:16 3-10-97 -0600 schreef Tim Wegner zoiets als:
>Roelf asked:
>
>> It can't be that the second graphic card gives also
>> trouble could it? Its a diamond stealth 2400 with 4 mb on board. Something
>> weird is going on.
>
>A video board could hang fractint because of the tests for video
>boards on runup. This can be positively checked by using the
>adapter=vga commandline option. If Fractint still hangs with that
>option it's not video.

OK lets forget the video &8-)

>
>Are you positive you have a good copy of Fractint? Did you change
>the complete motherboard or just the CPU chip? ARe you sure the
>memory is OK?

It runs on my other PC so it should be good, the archive is the one Noell
stated as the right one. Ofcause I only changed the chip wouldn't make
sense else now would it. Memory is just fine.

ONLY THE S&%t EXE WONT RUN (starting to cry now)

>
>If you swap out *everything* it should work <g!>
>
Don't temped me! Pub is just around the corner &8-D

Greetz Grey
--                                            _/_/|
        grey@nym,alias.net                 (o(o) \
          ' The Wolf '                  OO~~     /
                                        \--__   ,/
    "I like'm sweet and wet"            |/~  `-'

 Proud member of nl.erotiek.bdsm

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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 04 Oct 1997 11:00:13 -0400

Grey,

Whatever your problem with FractInt is, it's not because it doesn't work
with Cyrix CPUs.  I've used FractInt on Cyrix 486, 5x86, and 6x86
processors.  It always ran fine.

Also, I seriously doubt it's an overclocking thing.  Having overclocked (or
at least attempted to) every processor I've ever owned or built into a
system, it's been my experience that DOS real mode programs (like FractInt)
are generally the *most* reliable at higher speeds.  Crashes usually occur
in protected modes, like most modern games or systems like Windows.  So
this is almost certainly not it.

This is one bizarre problem, dude.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 04 Oct 1997 15:48:16 -0400

        Hello Nuke.

I have tested your "nice flower". I like it !
I have never played with L-system, but I'm going now
to try it. Only one note: may be you can put your
e-mail in a comment in the formule ?

And now _my_ question: why zoom fonctions are
disabled in L-system ? I cant' see a technical
reason, because I think that the complete image
is computed in the first pass (twirlling baton)
an displayed in the second pass. Is there a
guru here for an explanation ?

        Best regards from Toulouse, France

        Thierry Boudet

Fltree(with color) { ;author Nuke
        Angle 32
        Axiom +++++++++X
        X=<01F[@.64+++X]-F[@.29---X]@.5X
        }


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 04 Oct 1997 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT)





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 04 Oct 1997 19:02:37 -0600

This is a somewhwat technical note, but if you are interested in
lsystems, you might want to read it.

A while ago someone here reminded us that the Lsystems image
SnowFlakeColor has been broken for a long time. I traced back through
my old version archives and determined that the last version of
fractint that correctly rendered SnowFlakeColor was also the last
version before the assembler speedups for lsystems were added. Since
the Linux version of Fractint has no trouble with this fractal, and
also does not use assembler, I thought this conclusively demonstarted
that the bug was in the assembler. I suggested something along the
lines of disabling the fast assembler.

Well, it turns out I was wrong. Today I was thinking about this, and
wondered if the debug=70 switch which disables the detection of a
coprocessor would make lsystems use C rather rthan assembler. (See
debugflag.doc for "undocumented" switches like this.) In the process
of experiementing, I discovered that SnowFlakeColor worked in my
personal develoiper version!

It turns out tha SnowFlakeColor fails because of a shortage of stack
space. Stack is the memory used to allocate space for local variables
in routines. Lsystems uses a recursive algorithm, which means that
the main lsystems function calls itself as the image is rendered.
Each time a new call is made to the recursive function, new copies of
the local variables are allocated from the stack. If the depth of
recursion is too great, stack memory will run out, and the fractal
will fail.

I had to increase the stack memory in my personal version to get a
prototype of the synchronous orbits (fractal witchcraft) routine to
work. Since more stack was available, SnowFlakeColor worked!

So we know what the problem is. Fixing it won't be easy, but I'll
make sure SnowFlakeColor is OK for the next release. There are many
trials and tribulations shoehorning more features into a conventional
memory propgram like Fractint - we are constantly figuring out how to
squeeze more out of limited memory. This burden will be removed
eventually, but not yet.

Oh yes - the fact that SnowFlakeColor broke when we added assembler
was just a coincidence. I'm sure that first version that broke just
had less stack space allocated than the version before.

Tim




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:24:27 -0400 (EDT)

>Sometimes non-standard hardware hangs when hardware tests are made.
>One strategy is to try to disable hardware tests. Have you read the
>"common problems in the docs"?

Of course if it hangs on startup he won't be able to reach the "common
problems" help screen, except by going reading it or using makedoc on a
machine where it runs ok.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:26:12 -0400 (EDT)

You're telling me this guy really used 1 billion maxiter?!

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:50:05 -0400 (EDT)

>
>
>
>


Neat, concise, very compact, and no grammatical or spelling errors.
However, I must take fifteen marks off for these: Your essay lacks a focus
or main point, it is ambiguous and unspecific, and you don't present even
one point or example or argument to support your thesis, which itself is
non-existent.

:-)


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:54:04 -0400 (EDT)


>This is a somewhwat technical note, but if you are interested in
>lsystems, you might want to read it.
>
>A while ago someone here reminded us that the Lsystems image
>SnowFlakeColor has been broken for a long time. I traced back through
>my old version archives and determined that the last version of
>fractint that correctly rendered SnowFlakeColor was also the last
>version before the assembler speedups for lsystems were added. Since
>the Linux version of Fractint has no trouble with this fractal, and
>also does not use assembler, I thought this conclusively demonstarted
>that the bug was in the assembler. I suggested something along the
>lines of disabling the fast assembler.
>
>Well, it turns out I was wrong. Today I was thinking about this, and
>wondered if the debug=70 switch which disables the detection of a
>coprocessor would make lsystems use C rather rthan assembler. (See
>debugflag.doc for "undocumented" switches like this.) In the process
>of experiementing, I discovered that SnowFlakeColor worked in my
>personal develoiper version!
>
>It turns out tha SnowFlakeColor fails because of a shortage of stack
>space. Stack is the memory used to allocate space for local variables
>in routines. Lsystems uses a recursive algorithm, which means that
>the main lsystems function calls itself as the image is rendered.
>Each time a new call is made to the recursive function, new copies of
>the local variables are allocated from the stack. If the depth of
>recursion is too great, stack memory will run out, and the fractal
>will fail.
>
>I had to increase the stack memory in my personal version to get a
>prototype of the synchronous orbits (fractal witchcraft) routine to
>work. Since more stack was available, SnowFlakeColor worked!
>
>So we know what the problem is. Fixing it won't be easy, but I'll
>make sure SnowFlakeColor is OK for the next release. There are many
>trials and tribulations shoehorning more features into a conventional
>memory propgram like Fractint - we are constantly figuring out how to
>squeeze more out of limited memory. This burden will be removed
>eventually, but not yet.

Glad the problem has been resolved. (This of course further argues for a
32-bit version for DOS... and overclocked Cyrix chips can go hang, if 32
bit protected mode will otherwise greatly improve performance and
expandability...

waitaminnit...WHAT did you just say?

>I had to increase the stack memory in my personal version to get a
>prototype of the synchronous orbits (fractal witchcraft) routine to
>work.

That's what I THOUGHT you said. SYCHRONOUS ORBITS?! WOOHOO!


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) Mailing list is dropping letters on the floor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 00:04:07 -0400 (EDT)


I am copying this directly to twegner because the list copy may not make
it to anyone as I shall shortly explain.

Today I rapidly sent off about six articles to the list. As usual, it was
a while before I received copies from the mailing list. But, I received
the second, fifth, and sixth. The first, third, and fifth never made it.
Clearly the list got them, because it got and sent the sixth. So it got
them but didn't send them! This would seem to indicate a serious software
problem somewhere at the server (xmission.com?). Fortunately, I keep
carbon copies of all my outgoing mail anyways, so as soon as I become
aware the problem has been rectified I shall be able to resend the three
lost messages and will incur no irreperable damage at my
end...unfortunately the same might not prove true for other users of the list.
A software problem that eats messages without a trace, or even a bounce,
and thus causes possible permanent loss of data, is serious enough that I
feel it warrants being checked into at earliest convenience and at top
priority, by whomever is in charge of such things at xmission...

If software troubles at xmission are not something you (twegner) can
directly deal with, I guess you must know who can, since you got the list
set up there through somebody, and then this message should be forwarded
to the appropriate technical person.
Thank you...


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:09:03 -0600

Yo Paul,

> Of course if it hangs on startup he won't be able to reach the "common
> problems" help screen, except by going reading it or using makedoc on a
> machine where it runs ok.

Of course, but our friend is able to run Fractint on other machines
so can read the docs.

If you think I'm being silly, I hereby assign you to the mythical
"Fractint Support team" and answer the questions I get. <g!> The docs
may not be the best, but 99% of the questions I spend time answering
are already answered in  the docs. Many issues are discussed in the
"Common Problems" section.

Example: one of the most common questions I get is "why does going
to text mode and back corrupt my image". I'm about ready to make
textsafe=save the default just to avoid seeing this question. This
would mean that every time you go to text mode, your graphics screen
would be saved to disk. Might be better to make the default slower
and safer, and have a textsafe=no or some such for folks who know our
trick for leaving the graphics image intact in video memory works on
their machine.

Tim




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:09:03 -0600

Arrrgghhh! My "somewhwat technical note" that retracted my earlier
theory was itself wrong. I'm not having a good time with this Lsys
question. It turns out I have more than one sstools.ini on my system,
and my developer version was picking up float=yes but my version 19.6
wasn't!!! So all that theorizing about stack was wrong.

Jonathan Osuch pointed out to me that the Lsystems "SnowFlakeColor"
was never broken in float mode. It's broken in integer mode.

Could someone with a fast computer or a lot of patience try
SnowFlakeColor at high orders such as 7 and 8, and tell me if it's
OK with float=yes? I tested 6 and it worked with float=yes. It gets
*really* slow at higher orders.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 05 Oct 1997 00:16:44 -0400 (EDT)


textsafe=save is the most user friendly default. And, it will run
perfectly fast if it saves to extended memory instead of disk. (c'mon
NOBODY runs Fractint on machines with actually only 640K anymore! Or if
they do, then it can always use disk as a fail safe if it doesn't detect
enough ram. (Malloc returns null.)

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:20:58 -0600

Paul wrote:

 > Glad the problem has been resolved.

See my other emabaressed  note on lsys. Actually, the situation is
good if it's what I now think. Just use float=yes and all is well.
Snowflakecolor is only broken in integer mode, which doesn't bother
me. Lots of things don't work in integer mode.

> That's what I THOUGHT you said. SYCHRONOUS ORBITS?! WOOHOO!

I have Synchronous Orbits working just fine in a long double version
in my version. But synchronous orbits is only useful for very deep
zooms right at the limit of double precision. Using long double gives
an extra three orders of magnitude, but the fun won't really start
until we port Synchronous Orbits to arbitrary precsion. I'm really
looking forward to that.

For those who don't know, the Synchronous Orbits algorithm is a huge
speedup for certain deep zoomed fractals. It works by flying a number
of orbits "in formation" and detecting when they start to get out of
formation. The algorithm then subdivides and continues with a smaller
formation, continuing until the subdivision process reaches the pixel
level. This can save an enormous amount of time, because up to the
point of subdivsion, the iterations of all the points inside the
formation have been saved. For deep zooms this can be thousands of
iterations for thousands of pixels.

It's not clear how well Synchronous orbits will work with other than
mandelbrot and Julia, but I'm planning on implementing it generally,
at least for the types supporting arbitrary precision.

Tim



>
>
> --
>     .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
>  -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
>     `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
> Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
> Post Message:   [e-mail]
> Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
> Administrator:  [e-mail]
> Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 04 Oct 1997 23:25:07 -0600

Paul suggested:
Paul wrote:

> textsafe=save is the most user friendly default. And, it will run
> perfectly fast if it saves to extended memory instead of disk.

Actually, that's a good idea. Jonathan Osuch added the needed
functions to use extended memory in just that way. That's a good
application of his functions, I'll look into it.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug?
Date: 05 Oct 1997 00:31:34 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Paul suggested:
>Paul wrote:
>
>> textsafe=save is the most user friendly default. And, it will run
>> perfectly fast if it saves to extended memory instead of disk.
>
>Actually, that's a good idea. Jonathan Osuch added the needed
>functions to use extended memory in just that way. That's a good
>application of his functions, I'll look into it.
>
>Tim

Don't forget disk-video modes. They use disk or ram as optimal. Probably
textsafe=save can be implemented essentially the same way. For that matter
it's a fact that RAM accesses faster than video, so normal video fractals
perhaps could compute to RAM and be updated to screen on a timer, say
every half second? The speedup might be noticeable. Faster fractals on
faster machines the bottleneck might be video writes and bank switching,
although for slower fractals or slower machines, where you see a pixel...
twenty seconds later a pixel... it won't matter a whit.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (MR CHARLES F CROCKER)
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 13:50:37, -0500

Here is the result of my survey of the Lsystem SnowFlakeColor with a
Pentium 90.

Res        Math  Order
640X480     FP     5       0:34.00
640X480     INT    5       0:33.56    Few missing pieces
640X480     INT    6       4:05.36    Considerable missing
640X480     FP     6       7:11.11
1280X1024   FP     6       7:05.73
1280X1024   FP     5      34.44
1280X1024   INT    5      33.78       Missing pieces. Doesn't fit screen.
1280X1024   INT    4       3.46       Top off screen by 4 or 5 pixels.
1280X1024   INT    3       1.16       Complete.
1280X1024   FP     7    1:32:13.58

It doesn't seem that keeping integer is worthwhile. Exactly what is
happening isn't clear to me. As the order goes up the figure gets
progressively bigger missing pieces and more outside of the screen. The
plotting seems to progress normally but random pieces get skipped. If you
want to see the structure order 5 is about as high as necessary with
ordinary displays.

Changing the pallet to Rainbow and making the background black pleases me.
The order 7 figure then is then colored pink mush.

Charles

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 04 Oct 1997 15:47:02 -0500

Hi, Thierry (pronounced th-ear-ee?)

I guess I could put my e-mail message in the formula, but why?

As far as the zooming feature is concerned: I'm certainly no expert but
if you look at a L-system fractal carefully, you will probably be able to
predict what the "zoomed" result will look like: exactly what the normal
100% view will be!
To see what I mean, pick any L-system fractal and start with 1itereation
and look carefully at the result.
Then use a 2 iteration, then 3, then 4 and so on. I think that you will
see why a zooming feature in these types of fractals is unneccesary.

On Sat, 4 Oct 1997 15:48:16 -0400 Thierry Boudet
<[e-mail]> writes:
>        Hello Nuke.
>
>I have tested your "nice flower". I like it !
>I have never played with L-system, but I'm going now
>to try it. Only one note: may be you can put your
>e-mail in a comment in the formule ?
>
>And now _my_ question: why zoom fonctions are
>disabled in L-system ? I cant' see a technical
>reason, because I think that the complete image
>is computed in the first pass (twirlling baton)
>an displayed in the second pass. Is there a
>guru here for an explanation ?
>
>        Best regards from Toulouse, France
>
>        Thierry Boudet
>
>------------------------------------
>Fltree(with color) { ;author Nuke
>        Angle 32
>        Axiom +++++++++X
>        X=<01F[@.64+++X]-F[@.29---X]@.5X
>        }
>------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
>Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
>Administrator:  [e-mail]
>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 05 Oct 1997 14:47:36 -0400

> I'm certainly no expert but
> if you look at a L-system fractal carefully, you will probably
> be able to predict what the "zoomed" result will look like:
> exactly what the normal 100% view will be!

        May be, may be, me to, I'm not an expert. But in
Fractint, the zoom fonctions are not only for "deep zzzzoooom",
but can rotating, panning, modifying aspect ratio and 'skewing'
your image. It work great for IFS. Why not for L-systems ?

        Think a little about it.
        Best regards.
        Thierry.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 15:03:36 -0600

Charles Crocker wrote:

> Here is the result of my survey of the Lsystem SnowFlakeColor with a
> Pentium 90.

Thanks for testing. I know SnowFlakecolor is broken in integer mode.
Looking at your results, all the float=yes cases were OK. All the
remains might be for some patient soul to try orders 7 and 8.

I'm not surprised, nor does it bother me, that the integer math
SnowFlakeColor is broken. Anyone with a pentium should use float=yes
in sstools.ini and make it the default. It's true that fractint made
a name for itself with integer math, but that dates back to a trime
when most PCs did not have coprocessors, and coprocessors were
slower. With each chip generation, floating point performance inches
closer to integer math.

Thanks again for your benchmarks. Silly of me to have forgotten that
SnowFlakeColor works fine with float=yes.

Tim








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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benno Schmid" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Boundary is partially right!
Date: 05 Oct 1997 14:28:53 +100


Justin wrote:
> Note:  I tried to send this directly to you, Benno, but the mail got
> returned with
> some strange error message, which follows:

I have checked  out all of my adresses as soon I returned from Verona
and they worked fine, so I can't imagine what has happened.
>
> Yes, I got the files.  I checked them out, and IMHO, they actually do
> resemble
> the border of the twindragon curve,  except that the resulting curve is
> actually
> like one straight segment of the border of the twindragon instead of
> being the
> entire closed border.

Justin,
You're right, and although I could not believe it first, Mandelbrot's
construction _is_ a part of the twin dragon border. It is in
particular the line binding the two smaller copies of the dragon
together. So the whole border is made up upon copies of the "skin"
curve. I have not found out how many, perhaps even infinite, but the
dimensions are certainly identical.
> I've tried to manipulate the L-system version to make
> it close, but it is difficult when I don't acually have the picture of
> the original twindragon in front of me. <g>

Why don't you just print it out?
>
> Anyway, if I can get it to work, I'll
> post it and anyone else who has any interest can check it out for
> themselves.
Please keep me noticed what you have found out.

Benno


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 16:38:39 -0400

Tim,

 - Thanks for testing. I know SnowFlakecolor is broken in integer mode.
 - Looking at your results, all the float=yes cases were OK. All the
 - remains might be for some patient soul to try orders 7 and 8.

I can run these tonight on my Pentium-166.  (Finally replaced my Cyrix with
an Intel... hoo boy does FractInt like having a fast FPU!)  Order 6 worked
fine in float mode here, too.

 - With each chip generation, floating point performance inches
 - closer to integer math.

Now there's an understatement. :)  Pentiums are faster at floating-point
than integer for anything that is multiply-intensive (like fractals).  22.3
for float vs. 26.8 for integer mode, M-set zoom near the top circle,
maxiter=1000.  As the iterations increase, so does the speed benefit for
floating-point.  Even the initial M-set image is slightly faster on the FPU.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 15:55:10 -0600

Damien said:

> Now there's an understatement. :)  Pentiums are faster at floating-point
> than integer for anything that is multiply-intensive (like fractals).  22.3
> for float vs. 26.8 for integer mode, M-set zoom near the top circle,
> maxiter=1000.  As the iterations increase, so does the speed benefit for
> floating-point.  Even the initial M-set image is slightly faster on the FPU.

For this I reason I have the following "modest proposal" (don't
worry, I'm not going to do this instantly, still thinking <g!>)

I want to rip out all integer code from Fractint. My reasons are

1. It is getting harder and harder to add new features to Fractint
because of resource limitations. Removing all the integer code would
greatly simplify things by suddenly reducing the size and complexity
of Fractint.

2. When we do move to a 32 bit environment, we will have to remove
integer code anyway. The integer math code is written in assembler,
and not just any assembler, but medium model assembler. This code
won't port easily to any other environment. Note that Xfract already
supports only floating point.

There are only two arguments I can think of against this.

1. There are still millions of older machines around the world
without FPUs. The most recent use the 486SX chips.

(I think that is a weak argument as time goes by.)

2. Artists have a huge number of images that depend on artifacts of
integer math.

There's no good answer to this except "keep your old copy of
Fractint".

I'd like comments on this. Robin Bussell's "Fractint Wish List" web
page has a number of pleas to "please don't kill the DOS version of
Fractint". If removing integer math extended the life of the DOS
fractint would folks be for it? Removing integer math would not
necessarily slow getting ports of Fractint for newer environments.

What do folks think?

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Howdy!
Date: 05 Oct 1997 16:04:41 -0500

Hey Thierry,
I'm not familiar with any of the other possiblities for the zooming
features. I'll have to check it out.

Can somebody help with this one: How do you set the default file in
L=-system, and Formula types?
Plus- Is there a way to have Fractint start at a particular fractal type,
and automatically set the video, selct the file etc.. And if you tell me
to use the batch mode please explain a little to get me started.
(is batch mode in Factint like a batch file in DOS?)
On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:47:36 -0400 Thierry Boudet
<[e-mail]> writes:
>> I'm certainly no expert but
>> if you look at a L-system fractal carefully, you will probably
>> be able to predict what the "zoomed" result will look like:
>> exactly what the normal 100% view will be!
>
>        May be, may be, me to, I'm not an expert. But in
>Fractint, the zoom fonctions are not only for "deep zzzzoooom",
>but can rotating, panning, modifying aspect ratio and 'skewing'
>your image. It work great for IFS. Why not for L-systems ?
>
>        Think a little about it.
>        Best regards.
>        Thierry.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 17:10:11 -0400 (EDT)


Tim Wegner wrote:
>
>
> I want to rip out all integer code from Fractint. My reasons are
>
> 1. It is getting harder and harder to add new features to Fractint
> because of resource limitations. Removing all the integer code would
> greatly simplify things by suddenly reducing the size and complexity
> of Fractint.
>

   Having not looked at the source I don't know how complicated this
would prove, but would it be possible and feasible to isolate out the
integer optimizations? Maybe there's an int=yes flag that redirects
things to a giant block of integer code... presumably this would give a
less tightly optimized result when running integer math, but it would let
the world's 486sx owners continue, and preserve the usefullness of old
artifact images. It's worth remembering that while few serious fractal
lovers are still stuck on a non-FPU processor in this country, that's
less true in many other parts of the world, at least judging by what I've
seen on this listserv. On the other hand, it would be relatively trivial
to keep the last integer version availible. I'd have to say that if
there's a relatively simple way to preserve integer math as a sort of
module, great, but otherwise we may as well move ahead... becuase it will
make the rest of fractint development much faster and much more portable,
really.


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From: [e-mail] (Michael Traynor)
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 17:13:54 -0400 (EDT)

Tim Wegner wrote:

>I want to rip out all integer code from Fractint. My reasons are
>

Go for it!
...
>
>There are only two arguments I can think of against this.
>
>1. There are still millions of older machines around the world
>without FPUs. The most recent use the 486SX chips.

This makes me feel better about my 486DX. (I have a pentium 166 at work, a
government job.  I don't need it for anything I do at work, and it attracks
thieves - one of them, on my machine alone, has already been stolen - but
it sure is nice for fractals.  I need to justify the expenditure of tax
dollars on the damn thing somehow.)

>
>2. Artists have a huge number of images that depend on artifacts of
>integer math.
>
>There's no good answer to this except "keep your old copy of
>Fractint".

With the recent efforts to make sure all the old versions are archived,
this is not really a flippant answer at all.



--
Mike Traynor

People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    Abraham Lincoln

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 15:04:07 -0600


I say ditch the integer math and let people know that the DOS-only
version of fractint has a limited lifespan.  Perhaps one more major
release and then that's it.  If people are stuck with old machines (some
of my friends are) or don't want to use a windowing environment
(again, some of my friends are like that), then they should use the
last DOS release of fractint.  Which I would imagine would be
something like rev 20.x.  Trying to support both DOS and windowed
environments from the same code base is a problem we've discussed
often and it is just such a huge pain.  I think that 20 releases under
DOS is pretty damn impressive!  Retiring fractint from DOS would make
adding new features to the code SO much easier that people might
actually do it more often :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 18:07:17 -0500



>Could someone with a fast computer or a lot of patience try
>SnowFlakeColor at high orders such as 7 and 8, and tell me if it's
>OK with float=yes? I tested 6 and it worked with float=yes. It gets
>*really* slow at higher orders.

I've tried order 7, and it worked (at least as far as I ran it- I
accidentally pushed a fn key as I was running it, and wiped it out most of
the way through -- GRRR! )  Anyway, I'll run order 8 overnight tonight, and
let you know the results tomorrow ( if it's finished by then on my Pentium
Pro 180 ;) )

Justin

--no cool signature :( --

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From: henry birdseye <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 20:07:10 -0400 (EDT)

On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Rich Thomson wrote:

>
> I say ditch the integer math and let people know that the DOS-only
> version of fractint has a limited lifespan.  Perhaps one more major

If Fractint for Win could do batch animations then go for it. But my
experience is that DOSFract is extremely fast and I use it for batch
zooming animation all the time.

-----------------
Henry S. Birdseye
Video Compositing Artist, Fractal Zoomer, Raytracer, Film Collector,
  Techno Head, .net addict

www.mich.com/~ozymand
www.prodcolor.com


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From: Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 19:19:52 -0500




>What do folks think?

>Tim
I think as long as DOS lives, there should be a DOS version of Fractint, for
the main reason that it seems a lot easier to develop for DOS than for
Windows 95.  I could be wrong, but I have been able to produce a Mandelbrot
program for DOS that doesn't even put Fractint 2 to shame (no interactive
zooming, no speedups, but automatic 1024x768 resolution) using Visual C++
1.52, but I don't even know how to get started using Windows 3.1 with
version 1.52 or Windows 95 using 4.0!  You guys must have been super
programmers to even produce a Windows version in the first place--or is it
somehow easier with non-Visual C?
BTW, the source code for Fractint won't compile with VC++1.52.  I haven't
tried Winfract yet.  I wanted to add colors for truecolor mode, but 1) I
don't know where to find the limit for the maximum colors and 2) It wouldn't
compile anyway.

Justin

-- no cool signature :( --


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Francois Blais <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:51:36 +0800

At 10/5/97 3:03:00 PM, Tim Wegner wrote:

>Thanks for testing. I know SnowFlakecolor is broken in integer mode.
>Looking at your results, all the float=yes cases were OK. All the
>remains might be for some patient soul to try orders 7 and 8.

On my 486 DX-50, at 640x480, (float=yes) SnowFlake took about 5 minutes at order
7, and about 20 minutes at order 8. (about 10 minutes to compute and the same
time to render)
Hope this helps.

--
           La voix de ma contrebasse     *    Quebec City - Canada


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Evan J Hall)
Subject: Re: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 05 Oct 1997 20:53:46 -0500

Since my e-mail service doesn't have a file send/recieve function, I
wasn't able to use this par file for a while, but I now have a mime
decoder, and I decoded it and attempted to look at the fractals.
Unfortunately, I got errors such as "Undefined Function", "Need More ')',
and "')' needs a matching '('.  I haven't been able to fix these errors
and I'm beginning to wonder if I need a different version of Fractint.
Please help!

+
|  :)Evan Hall
|  [e-mail]
|  My other computer is a Commodore 64
+---------------------------------------+

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:32:08 -0400 "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>--=====================_874539128==_
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Howdy folks,
>
>Attached to this message is a formula file containing all the new
>coloring
>algorithms I have made for FractInt, for both the Mandelbrot set and
>the
>NovaM fractal.  Many of these are variations on orbit trap types; a
>few are
>based on formulae Kerry Mitchell posted here recently.  There are over
>100
>different formulae in this file.  Details as to what each formula does
>are
>contained in the "dmj--Read-Me-First" formula which will be the first
>one
>listed.  Although I have only provided versions of the algorithms for
>Mandelbrot and NovaM types, instructions are included on how to adapt
>the
>techniques to other types.  Each formula is extensively commented as
>well.
>
>Lee Skinner asked for example PARs to show some of what is possible.
>I
>have forty or so images produced with these formulae (and a few other
>formulae that aren't ready for "prime time") so I don't really want to
>post
>PARs for all of them here.  I hope to have most of them up on my web
>gallery later today.  Here are six, though, to show you what is
>possible
>with these techniques:
 (Files snipped)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean (and/or) Jaqueline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Serious Fractint 19.6 bug!
Date: 05 Oct 1997 20:20:39 -0600 (MDT)

On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, NOEL_GIFFIN wrote:

>     On the other hand, is it possible that when you unzipped the
> new version of fractint,  you might have used the option not to overwrite
> existing versions of certain files, or as my previous note suggested, were
> you one of the eager ones that picked up fractint from spanky in the
> first day or two before the official release announcement?

    Nope.  Until I downloaded 19.6 from Spanky, I hadn't had a copy of
Fractint on this particular machine.
    And nope.  I downloaded 19.6 (the first time) in July or August.

    But I have a theory.  If one converts the version number "19.6" to
alphabetic characters in the following manner (1=A, 2=B, 3=C...) the
program is then renamed "Fractint SF."  The reference to Science Fiction
in the version number is an obvious clue.  I hesitate to say any more,
lest I'm silenced.

---
* Brought to you by Sean and/or Jaq, and their 18 cats:
    * Crystal, Sputnik, Venus, Berkeley
    * Tinker, Evers, Chance,
    * Crosby, Stills, Nash,
    * Tigger, Pooh, Piglet,
    * Orion, Cursa, Spica, Polaris, and Atria.
 [And yes, we have children, too.  Can't remember their names, though.]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:29:15 -0600

Justin said:

> I think as long as DOS lives, there should be a DOS version of Fractint, for
> the main reason that it seems a lot easier to develop for DOS than for
> Windows 95.

I wasn't proposing killing the DOS version; quite the contrary, I was
proposing to extend its life by eliminating integer math, thereby
making room for growth.

Think of fractint for DOS as a turtle that grows inside a shell that
doesn't. Get's kinda tight inside the shell <g!> I'm proposing to
surgically remove half the turtle to create some room for new stuff
inside the fixed shell.

Kinda a bad metaphor, but I guess it will do <g!>


> BTW, the source code for Fractint won't compile with VC++1.52.

I've lost track of version numbers, but the newest VC++'s don't even
come with a conventional memory compiler. Fractint does compile fine
with the last conventional memory compiler Microsoft made. It won't
compile with any compiler that targets only Windows.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:29:15 -0600

Just a word folks. Remember that nontechnical messages are most
welcome on this list along with technical ones. This note is
technical, but don't be scared away if it's over your head. You're
still welcome here.

Rich said:

> I say ditch the integer math and let people know that the DOS-only
> version of fractint has a limited lifespan.
> ...
> Trying to support both DOS and windowed
> environments from the same code base is a problem we've discussed
> often and it is just such a huge pain.

Let me suggest an alternative. What is a pain is *not* supporting
DOS and Windowing environments together, but supporting the medium
memory model and flat memory models together. If the integer math
were removed from Fractint, and Fractint were ported to djgpp (the
extended DOS GNU C compiler) then the DOS version could live for as
long as DOS lives. That's because djgpp is a 32 bit flat memory model
environment. Most code that compiles under djgpp will also compile
under Linux or Unix or Win95. We could easily maintain a core of
portable code and everyone would be happy.

A djgpp-compiled Fractint would run on a 386 with plenty of memory.
It would be slower than the old Fractint until we got the floating
point assembler ported. Very possibly the assembler could work under
Linux also. It's not hard to bolt a windowing environment on top of
the DOS Fractint (Bert Tyler proved that). The problem is that
current windowing environments are 32 bit. Of course I'm assuming we
could do a major reorgaization of the underlying engine to isolate it
from the GUI.

The one sad thing about this is that most of Bert Tyler's original
contribution would be gone if we did this - the integer math and the
video. However we might be able to port the video to djgpp (maybe
Bert could even be dragged out of retirement to do this), but it
might be easier to use existing video libraries.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean (and/or) Jaqueline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 05 Oct 1997 21:16:58 -0600 (MDT)

On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Tim Wegner wrote:

> I want to rip out all integer code from Fractint. . . .
>
> There's no good answer to this except "keep your old copy of
> Fractint".
>
> I'd like comments on this. . . . What do folks think?

Go for it.  I run Fractint on a 386DX-33, and still I say go for it.
About the only objection I can think of is that "Fractfloat" sounds silly.
But, realistically, who can say that "Fractint" sounds any better?

    - Sean

---
* Brought to you by Sean and/or Jaq, and their 18 cats:
    * Crystal, Sputnik, Venus, Berkeley
    * Tinker, Evers, Chance,
    * Crosby, Stills, Nash,
    * Tigger, Pooh, Piglet,
    * Orion, Cursa, Spica, Polaris, and Atria.
 [And yes, we have children, too.  Can't remember their names, though.]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) Weird
Date: 06 Oct 1997 01:11:28 -0400 (EDT)


Shouldn't the mailing list intercept bounces instead of forwarding them to
every darned user?

>To:            SMTP@PTLNORWOOD3@Servers[<[e-mail]>], [e-mail]@PTLNORWOOD
>Cc:
>Subject:       Mailing list is dropping letters on the floor
>
>Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
>error codes.
>
>    VNM3042:  [e-mail]@PTLNORWOOD
>
>
>
>VNM3042 -- NAME NOT FOUND
>
>   Mail cannot deliver the message for one of the
>   following reasons:  the appropriate StreetTalk is not
>   available; the recipient's user name was deleted; the
>   recipient's name was not entered correctly.  Verify
>   the accuracy of the name entered.  If the name you
>   entered is a user name, check to see if the user was
>   deleted. If the name is correct and the user exists,
>   check the connections between the recipient and
>   the sender.
>
>   You may see this error if you send a message to a list,
>   but one of  the names on the list is incorrect or invalid.
>   Anytime a user is deleted, that user name must be
>   removed from all lists that contain the name.
>
>----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------
>
>
>I am copying this directly to twegner because the list copy may not make
>it to anyone as I shall shortly explain.
>
>Today I rapidly sent off about six articles to the list. As usual, it was
>a while before I received copies from the mailing list. But, I received
>the second, fifth, and sixth. The first, third, and fifth never made it.
>Clearly the list got them, because it got and sent the sixth. So it got
>them but didn't send them! This would seem to indicate a serious software
>problem somewhere at the server (xmission.com?). Fortunately, I keep
>carbon copies of all my outgoing mail anyways, so as soon as I become
>aware the problem has been rectified I shall be able to resend the three
>lost messages and will incur no irreperable damage at my
>end...unfortunately the same might not prove true for other users of the list.
>A software problem that eats messages without a trace, or even a bounce,
>and thus causes possible permanent loss of data, is serious enough that I
>feel it warrants being checked into at earliest convenience and at top
>priority, by whomever is in charge of such things at xmission...
>
>If software troubles at xmission are not something you (twegner) can
>directly deal with, I guess you must know who can, since you got the list
>set up there through somebody, and then this message should be forwarded
>to the appropriate technical person.
>Thank you...
>
>
>--
>    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
> -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
>    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
>Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh
>
>
>

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) Ditching ints and ditching DOS
Date: 06 Oct 1997 01:22:25 -0400 (EDT)



I say ditch ints. I say keep DOS. It is easy to program DOS and windowing
versions of the same app. What you have to do is create your own windowing
frontend. A DOS version that does windowing itself (I'm working on such a
thing myself for DJGPP.) A Windows version that just inline-calls
functions in the windows API (interface is the same). X-Windows ditto.
Macintrash(!) ditto. Thus, the only piece of code that'd have to change
between environments would be the windowing stuff. It would be in a source
file for each environment, the makefile would detect the environment
(pre-processor flags; for example _DJGPP_ is defined in DJGPP, _Gnu_CC_ in
all gnu implementations, and so forth. Or something similar anyways.
It'd compile the other sources and the appropriate windowing source and
link them into a binary for the platform.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 06 Oct 1997 02:02:34 -0400

Justin,

 - I think as long as DOS lives, there should be a DOS version of Fractint,
 - for the main reason that it seems a lot easier to develop for DOS than for
 - Windows 95.

Well, that really depends on how you look at it.  They are two different
environments, two entirely different approaches to writing software.  There
are advantages to writing software for Windows that may not be entirely
obvious.  Yes, there is a lot more to know (like the Windows API and/or
MFC) but there is also a lot you don't *have* to know, like writing video
drivers.

 - I could be wrong, but I have been able to produce a Mandelbrot
 - program for DOS that doesn't even put Fractint 2 to shame (no interactive
 - zooming, no speedups, but automatic 1024x768 resolution) using Visual C++
 - 1.52, but I don't even know how to get started using Windows 3.1 with
 - version 1.52 or Windows 95 using 4.0!  You guys must have been super
 - programmers to even produce a Windows version in the first place--or is it
 - somehow easier with non-Visual C?

I'd certainly have to say writing Windows programs without some sort of
high-level development tool like MS Visual C++ or Borland C++ is
masochistic.  You can do it, but it's more work than not.

The main issue, though, is that you just don't write a windowed app in
*any* operating system the same way you write a DOS program where you
control the whole machine.  As I pointed out, it's a different approach to
programming.  If you're used to writing DOS apps, Windows programming can
seem very foreign.

I don't think doing WinFract required more genius than writing the original
FractInt, but that's just my personal opinion.

 - BTW, the source code for Fractint won't compile with VC++1.52.

Hardly surprising, VC++ 1.52 really isn't designed for writing DOS apps.
And any version after 1.52c is strictly 32-bit; although the latest
versions have a "console app", this is actually a 32-bit console thingie
rather than a DOS compiler.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 05 Oct 1997 23:53:19 -0400

Evan,

 - Since my e-mail service doesn't have a file send/recieve function, I
 - wasn't able to use this par file for a while, but I now have a mime
 - decoder, and I decoded it and attempted to look at the fractals.

This actually isn't part of your e-mail service, but the software *you* use
to fetch and read your mail.  Using a program like Eudora, Netscape Mail,
or MS Internet Mail will decode attached MIME files automatically.  (And no
doubt most other software will, too.)

If you are having trouble with the file, you can obtain the original here:

    http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/misc/dmj-pub.zip

 - Unfortunately, I got errors such as "Undefined Function", "Need More ')',
 - and "')' needs a matching '('.  I haven't been able to fix these errors
 - and I'm beginning to wonder if I need a different version of Fractint.

I used a lot of IF...ENDIF constructs in this file, so you will need
FractInt 19.6 to use it.  Some (perhaps all) of what I did could be done
without using the IF...ENDIF, but it would have been slower and a lot more
cumbersome to read.

As long as I'm talking about it, I have a new version (1.1) of this file
that I will be posting tomorrow.  This will contain a few minor fixes, a
few new coloring schemes, and a PAR file that will make it a whole lot
easier to get started browsing these new coloring algorithms (plus plenty
of examples).

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 06 Oct 1997 09:22:05 -0400 (EDT)

   I'd have to agree with Damien's comments. Of course, redesigning
fractint as modular and portable will add a few names to the top of the
credits list; someone needs a LOT of time on their hands...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: the death of DOS fractint
Date: 06 Oct 1997 10:18:49 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    henry birdseye <[e-mail]>  writes:
> If Fractint for Win could do batch animations then go for it. But my
> experience is that DOSFract is extremely fast and I use it for batch
> zooming animation all the time.

I don't see any reason why a windows version of fractint couldn't do
batch operations just as fast.  In fact, since the code would be moved
entirely to a 32-bit instruction base, it might even go faster.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor
Date: 06 Oct 1997 10:21:13 -0600


Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I think as long as DOS lives, there should be a DOS version of Fractint, for
> the main reason that it seems a lot easier to develop for DOS than for
> Windows 95.

Its the reverse, actually.  The DOS version suffers from so many
memory management hassles that its nearly impossible to add new code
or algorithms with any significant memory usage.

> I could be wrong, but I have been able to produce a Mandelbrot
> program for DOS that doesn't even put Fractint 2 to shame (no interactive
> zooming, no speedups, but automatic 1024x768 resolution) using Visual C++
> 1.52, but I don't even know how to get started using Windows 3.1 with
> version 1.52 or Windows 95 using 4.0!

The visually oriented tools (especially C++ tools) now are eliminating
much of the drudgery of writing windows applications, letting you
focus on the problem at hand.  However, writing a small mandelbrot
program under DOS is totally different from trying to add something to
the existing code base of fractint.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Perry <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Problems under Solaris
Date: 06 Oct 1997 12:36:48 -0500 (CDT)

I'm trying to compile the latest xfractint for UNIX under Solaris 2.5
using gcc 2.7.2. At link time I'm getting a bunch of messages similar to:

bigflt.o(.text+0x4b18): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bigflt.o: In function `scale_10':
bigflt.o(.text+0x55b0): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bigflt.o(.text+0x57bc): more undefined references to `_fmemmove' follow
biginit.o: In function `init_big_pi':
biginit.o(.text+0x1ae4): undefined reference to `_fmemcpy'
bignum.o: In function `convert_bn':
bignum.o(.text+0x324): undefined reference to `_fmemcpy'
bignum.o(.text+0x394): undefined reference to `_fmemcpy'
bignum.o: In function `unsafe_div_bn':
bignum.o(.text+0x16b4): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bignum.o(.text+0x16c8): undefined reference to `_fmemset'
bignum.o(.text+0x16f0): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bignum.o(.text+0x1704): undefined reference to `_fmemset'
bignum.o(.text+0x17ac): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bignum.o(.text+0x17d8): undefined reference to `_fmemset'
bignum.o(.text+0x182c): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
bignum.o(.text+0x1840): undefined reference to `_fmemset'
bignumc.o: In function `clear_bf':
bignumc.o(.text+0x29c4): undefined reference to `_fmemset'

and on and on... Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 John Perry - [e-mail]
 Texas Microsystems [phone]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor (not anymore)
Date: 06 Oct 1997 12:39:21 -0500


-----Original Message-----
Hardly surprising, VC++ 1.52 really isn't designed for writing DOS apps.
And any version after 1.52c is strictly 32-bit; although the latest
versions have a "console app", this is actually a 32-bit console thingie
rather than a DOS compiler.

So, are you saying that I should have bought Borland C++ instead of Visual
C++ 4.0 (which includes 1.52)? Or does that also have the same backwards
compatibility problem (which is, there is none?!)

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Windows because:
1. Solaris isn't available for PC's :(
2. I can't afford a SUN and I'd have to buy a server :( :( :(
3. When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows (or LINUX) app in your local
software store?! ;)"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Problems under Solaris
Date: 06 Oct 1997 13:46:58 -0400 (EDT)


John Perry wrote:
>
> I'm trying to compile the latest xfractint for UNIX under Solaris 2.5
> using gcc 2.7.2. At link time I'm getting a bunch of messages similar to:
>
> bigflt.o(.text+0x4b18): undefined reference to `_fmemmove'
...

> and on and on... Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>

   I guess suggesting you run Linux instead of Solaris wouldn't constitute
help...
   :)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Problems under Solaris
Date: 06 Oct 1997 11:51:53 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    John Perry <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I'm trying to compile the latest xfractint for UNIX under Solaris 2.5
> using gcc 2.7.2. At link time I'm getting a bunch of messages similar to:

Check the configuration header files; specifically port.h which
defines the following macros:

#define _fmemcpy  memcpy
#define _fmemset  memset
#define _fmemmove memmove

They should be defined for xfractint.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) SnowFlakeColor (not anymore)
Date: 06 Oct 1997 16:11:36 -0500


-----Original Message-----


Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I think as long as DOS lives, there should be a DOS version of Fractint,
for
> the main reason that it seems a lot easier to develop for DOS than for
> Windows 95.

Its the reverse, actually.  The DOS version suffers from so many
memory management hassles that its nearly impossible to add new code
or algorithms with any significant memory usage.

> I could be wrong, but I have been able to produce a Mandelbrot
> program for DOS that doesn't even put Fractint 2 to shame (no interactive
> zooming, no speedups, but automatic 1024x768 resolution) using Visual C++
> 1.52, but I don't even know how to get started using Windows 3.1 with
> version 1.52 or Windows 95 using 4.0!

The visually oriented tools (especially C++ tools) now are eliminating
much of the drudgery of writing windows applications, letting you
focus on the problem at hand.  However, writing a small mandelbrot
program under DOS is totally different from trying to add something to
the existing code base of fractint.


-- end of original message --

OK, OK, I admit it! I'm not even a novice programmer, so of course
programming for Windows seems impossible.  I can, however, see your point
about visual tools making it easier to porgram the problem at hand (no more
programming the user interface!) and DOS being impossible to manage memory
with (I suppose using protected mode makes it worse).  I guess where I get
lost is where the program gets segmented into classes, header files and the
like.  Maybe I'll learn how to do that stuff in my programming class next
semester, but seeing that we'll use QuickC, I doubt it...
Of course, I could take extra programming classes and minor in computer
science to go with my major in electrical and computer engineering, but by
then the feature I want to add to Fractint (TRUE COLOR) will probably have
been added!  Like Bob Dole says, "I just can't win!"

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Windows because:
1. Solaris isn't available for PC's :(
2. I can't afford a SUN and I'd have to buy a server :( :( :(
3. When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows (or LINUX) app in your local
software store?! ;)"



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Hine <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) CALCWAIT w/Truecolor=yes?
Date: 06 Oct 1997 15:41:13 -0600 (MDT)

Howdy all,
    I'm making significant progress on my (not so) little program to
allow unattended zooming with fractint; there are only a few bugs to work
out before I throw the source and exec up on my web page for you all to
break!
    One of these bugs is that FractInt's CALCWAIT autokeyword doesn't
seem to work when truecolor=yes is specified... I am playing around with
throwing some extra time in after the fractal is rendered (using the WAIT
keyword), but so far, I've been unsuccessful in creating a Targa file
from an autokey file... that is, one that's not corrupt.  If anyone is
able to accomplish this, please let me know/show me your autokey file...
I'll keep working on it, too.  Thanks for any help,

                        Jason (Spidey) Hine

 _ __ ___ ____ _____ ______ _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _
 _ __ ___                          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___         Jason N Hine              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        GIS Specialist              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___      Colorado State University          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___ Pedology and Soil  Information Systems Lab  ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        [phone]              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___  http://boralf.agsci.colostate.edu/~jason   ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        [e-mail]          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___ ____ _____ ______ _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dirk Meyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) the death of DOS fractint
Date: 07 Oct 1997 02:14:24 +0200

Tim Wegner wrote:
> If [...] Fractint were ported to djgpp (the
> extended DOS GNU C compiler) then the DOS version could live for as
> long as DOS lives. That's because djgpp is a 32 bit flat memory model
> environment. Most code that compiles under djgpp will also compile
> under Linux or Unix or Win95. We could easily maintain a core of
> portable code and everyone would be happy.

I think that's right. If Fractint would be ported to DJGPP, memory
would be no problem. And it would be no disadvantage for portability,
especially to Linux, because DJGPP is mostly the same as GCC on Linux
(only a few changes for DOS...)
My experience with DJGPP (ver 1) is, that it produces faster code than
real mode compilers, and a DJGPP version is almost for sure faster than
a windows version. It's not my opinion what Rich Thomson wrote:

> I don't see any reason why a windows version of fractint couldn't do
> batch operations just as fast.  In fact, since the code would be moved
> entirely to a 32-bit instruction base, it might even go faster.

DJGPP is also 32 bit, and there would be no "resource eating" windows
in background (if you kept an old DOS 6.2 version on your PC...).

Besides Linux, DOS is my favourite operating system, because it
is simple and fast and the user has a maximum of control over the
system (which you can't say of win95...)
So, please, keep Fractint for DOS alive (in new clothes)!

Dirk Meyer.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: 06 Oct 1997 20:08:08 -0500

Hey try this in "Formula" type.
I did it and zoomed into there far right and also in the upper center
area.
Really cool, and alot more chaotic in the upper area zoom than in the
right area zoomed.
Comments?

Nuke1 (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0
    c = pixel ; basic mandel upto here
    d = pixel: ;add new variable
    z = (z*z + c) / d ; slightly altered computation, highly
different results
    }


"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Evan J Hall)
Subject: Re: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 06 Oct 1997 17:47:05 -0500

>This actually isn't part of your e-mail service, but the software
>*you* use
>to fetch and read your mail.  Using a program like Eudora, Netscape
>Mail,
>or MS Internet Mail will decode attached MIME files automatically.
>(And no
>doubt most other software will, too.)

I use Juno because it's free e-mail, and free is quite a bit cheaper than
anything else I've seen.

>If you are having trouble with the file, you can obtain the original
>here:
>
>    http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/misc/dmj-pub.zip
>

That's where the problem comes in.  Juno is e-mail only.  No Internet.  I
do, however, have friends that can get it for me, and I plan on doing
that.

>I used a lot of IF...ENDIF constructs in this file, so you will need
>FractInt 19.6 to use it.  Some (perhaps all) of what I did could be
>done
>without using the IF...ENDIF, but it would have been slower and a lot
>more
>cumbersome to read.
>

Again, no Internet, but I can have a friend get me the file.

Thanks!

+
|  :)Evan Hall
|  [e-mail]
|  My other computer is a Commodore 64
+---------------------------------------+


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) An interesting fractal
Date: 06 Oct 1997 09:34:42 -0700


Paul wrote:
>You're telling me this guy really used 1 billion maxiter?!

Oh course.  Paul, it is simple and if you use solid guessing it is not so
bad.
I listed earlier some tricks to get the part of the image you want to see
done first.
It involves panning left and right to get Fractint to work on a narrow
slice of the
image. If you like what you see, then let the rest fill in.

With period checking, very few smaples go to 1 billion.


Jay




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Weird
Date: 06 Oct 1997 23:19:36 -0600

Paul wrote:

> Shouldn't the mailing list intercept bounces instead of forwarding them to
> every darned user?

Hmmm - and then you quoted the same message that went (again!) to
every darned user <g!>

List administration issues are hereby declared off topic for several
reasons:

1. List administration IS off topic.

2. Most folks are probably not interested, and in any case no
one except me can do anything about it.

3. I need to hear about list administration issues, and might easily
miss messages posted to the list. Just email me directly with
questions or suggestions about list administration.

I'm quite pleased with the way the list is going, thanks to everyone
for participating.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kathy roth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) printing
Date: 07 Oct 1997 00:22:10 -0700

Hi.  I'm really new to this and think fractint is a great program.  I
have been trying to print and only have been able to print in black and
white.  I have not found anywhere to set printing options.  The printer
is printing everything but fractint in color.  I am running version 19.6
and using an Epson Stylus 800 printer.  Thanks.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Integer  Math
Date: 07 Oct 1997 03:24:41 -0400 (EDT)

Tim Wegner asks:

If removing integer math extended the life of the DOS
fractint would folks be for it?

I say by all means go ahead.  And by all means continue with what will be
necessary to eventually bring Fractint up to 32 bit also.

Julian Adamaitis
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) printing
Date: 07 Oct 1997 10:39:41 -0400

At 12:22 AM 10/7/97 -0700, kathy roth <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Hi.  I'm really new to this and think fractint is a great program.  I
>have been trying to print and only have been able to print in black and
>white.  I have not found anywhere to set printing options.  The printer
>is printing everything but fractint in color.  I am running version 19.6
>and using an Epson Stylus 800 printer.  Thanks.

The printing capabilities of fractint are quite rudimentary. I don't think
many people print directly from fractint. You are much better off using a
third party program. If you are running Windows, get the shareware program
PaintShop Pro. It is easy to use and does a great job of printing fractals
on my Deskjet 870.

Nick
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) printing
Date: 07 Oct 1997 09:47:03 -0500



kathy roth wrote:

> Hi.  I'm really new to this and think fractint is a great program.  I
> have been trying to print and only have been able to print in black and
> white.  I have not found anywhere to set printing options.  The printer
> is printing everything but fractint in color.  I am running version 19.6
> and using an Epson Stylus 800 printer.  Thanks.
>

Congratulations, you've found the one thing about Fractint that isn't
great.<g>  This is a common complaint among new users of Fractint.  The best
advice that has come up on this newsgroup is: Don't use Fractint for
printing!  You're much better off saving the image as a .GIF fie and using
an image editor to print.  I hear Paint Shop Pro works great; it's shareware
and you should be able to find it on the Internet.  I hope this helps.

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris doesn't work on PCs :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation :(
:( :(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local computer
store?! ;)"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Hine <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) FractFloat?
Date: 07 Oct 1997 08:56:28 -0600 (MDT)

Howdy...

    Just my two cents concerning the debate over whether or not to continue
support for a DOS version of Fractint... I say produce perhaps one or two more
versions, and then cease the DOS version.  There are a few bugs/improvements
that I'd like to see corrected/implemented (mostly concerning truecolor support
and speed improvements... go synchronous orbits!!!), resulting in an
even-more-awesome-than-it-already-is fractal generation program which almost
anyone can run on almost any machine... I have not done any windows (i.e., VB)
programming, but I am beginning to understand the usefulness of having
predefined interface libraries and such...  just my two cents' worth!

    Jason (Spidey) Hine

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Hine <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Truecolor Autokey Question
Date: 07 Oct 1997 09:15:25 -0600 (MDT)


--31c_58ba-785c_5140-42f_470a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-MD5: 2CZA95ecd6Sf+KhFerXCow==
X-Sun-Data-Type: text

Howdy all,

    I messed around with my autokey problem last night for a couple hours,
but was unable to determine the source of my problem... so I'm still looking for
advice/help!  Below is the autokey file produced by my program... if you want to
run it, you're going to need to first save an image of the Mandelbrot set,
calling it 'deeper' (GIF is implied, remember...).  Don't set a viewwindow size
(do it at a standard rez, maybe SF5), since there's currently a problem when
Fractint tries to write out a viewwindowed Targa file.  My problem is that I
can't get a complete ITERATES.TGA file out of Fractint when it's running an
autokey file.  Any comments/suggestions/jibes are greatly appreciated,

Jason (Soon to visit Massachusetts) Hine


In basic English:

Get past credits
Turn sound off
Restore DEEPER.GIF
Create zoombox and move to new pixel location (determined by my program)
Save image with zoombox showing as d0000000.gif
Turn truecolor option on
Increase iterations
Change savename to 'deeper'
Set file overwrite to yes
Render new, zoomed image
Save image
Quit out of Fractint
--31c_58ba-785c_5140-42f_470a
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=deeper.key
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-MD5: Yd+iIfvyuXBU6mlDxjL0Qw==
Content-Description: deeper.key
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=deeper.key

ENTER
"g"
"sound=off"
ENTER
"r"
"deeper.gif"
ENTER
ENTER
CALCWAIT
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
PAGEUP
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
RIGHT
WAIT 0.3
DOWN
WAIT 0.3
"x"
DOWN
DOWN
DOWN
DOWN
DOWN
"d0000000.gif"
ENTER
WAIT 0.3
"s"
CALCWAIT
"g"
"truecolor=yes"
ENTER
CALCWAIT
"x"
DOWN
DOWN
WAIT 1
"505"
DOWN
DOWN
DOWN
"deeper"
DOWN
"y"
ENTER
ENTER
CALCWAIT
WAIT 8
"s"
WAIT 2
ESC
ESC
"y"
--31c_58ba-785c_5140-42f_470a--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike or Linda Allison" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:
Date: 07 Oct 1997 09:13:34 -0700

Hi, Peter!  I don't think I ever saw an answer to your question, so I'll
give it a go!

When you are in Fractint, load one of your favorite fractals.  Then hit
"b".  On the first line, give your par file a name (pfj.par ?).  On the
second line, give your fractal a name (fract001 ?).  Add any comments
(copyright Peter Jakubowicz  ?) and hit enter.  You just generated a par
file!  Load another favorite, hit "b," leave the par file name the same,
and on the second line enter the second fractal's name (fract002  ?).  Hit
enter.  You have two par files (fract001 and fract002) in the file named
pfj.par

When you exit DOS back to Windows, you can open pfj.par as a text file, see
the par file you generated, copy it, upload it, whatever!

Very simple!
Linda



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 07 Oct 1997 15:33:18 -0400

Howdy folks,

Just wanted to let everyone know that an update version of my FRM for new
coloring methods has been placed on my web site.  This contains slight
adjustments to the formulae to address the color drop-out problem Kerry
Mitchell pointed out, and a few tweaks to the smooth coloring algorithm
(and all formulae that incorporate it).

I have also included a PAR file that makes getting started with these
formulae easier.  Rather than select a new fractal type, and having to
remember which other settings need to be used (outside=real, decomp=256,
periodicity=no), you can select the corresponding PAR file entry and have
everything set for you.  There are also a few more examples in the PAR file.

You can download the ZIP file containing FRM and PAR from this URL:

    http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/misc/dmj-pub.zip

If you don't use this URL, the file is a little hard to find--there IS a
link, but it's obscure.  I intend to fix this, but wanted to let interested
folks know the new file is available.

Those who do not have web access but would still like the file can e-mail
me and I will send it as an attachment.  If you have trouble with
attachments, I can send it as plain text--but the plain text is 200K, and
the ZIP file is only 15K.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) the death of DOS fractint
Date: 07 Oct 1997 10:33:55 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Dirk Meyer <[e-mail]>  writes:
> DJGPP is also 32 bit, and there would be no "resource eating" windows
> in background (if you kept an old DOS 6.2 version on your PC...).

I didn't say windows was less resource hungry than DOS; I said that 32-bit
code is likely to be faster than 16-bit code.  This is my
understanding for modern processors anyway (pentium).
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: 07 Oct 1997 16:33:15 -0500

Want a novice opinion?
Pleeese write a 32 bit "windows" version of Fractint. I don't care what
you call it!
It seems that ediingt formulas and such could be done alot easier and
faster using pop-up windows for entering new information. Plus, I
wouldn't have to close fractint and edit my formula (simple as they are)
and re-open fractint, select display, type etc... I could just leave
Fractint open and maximize, edit,minimize, then try my changes. This
would be great for us who use trial and error more than mathematical
planning.
ANNNND. What is the big deal with snowflakecolor with float=yes. I tried
it with my pentium 166 and it only took about 2.5 minutes at the sixth
iteration. And I didn't see any missing pieces. I didn't go any higher.
ANNND since you said it was o.k. to ask simple questions here's one:
Do you mean delete integer math in favor of real numbers ( 1,2, 3 versus
1.0, 2.0, 3.0)?
I use real numbers all the time when I play around, is fractint just
ignoring me?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: (fractint) Re: your mail
Date: 07 Oct 1997 18:02:48 -0400 (EDT)


[e-mail] wrote:
> ANNND since you said it was o.k. to ask simple questions here's one:
> Do you mean delete integer math in favor of real numbers ( 1,2, 3 versus
> 1.0, 2.0, 3.0)?
> I use real numbers all the time when I play around, is fractint just
> ignoring me?

   In the bad old days, most computers lacked a math-coprocessor (or
floating-point processor) optimized for real numbers instead of integers.
If you passed an instruction down to your processor that basically said
"compute 3.5*2.0", it would run whole orders of magnitude slower than
"compute 4*2". A sorry, sorry state of affairs for fractals.
   Fractint slipped around this speedbump by converting all
floating-point (or 'real') numbers to integers before doing the math. Of
course this limited the precision of the operation and hence the maximum
zoom before you switched back into floating-point mode; if you dig up an
old PC and start zooming in on the M-set, you'll see a sudden slowdown at
a certain magnification. It introduced a few artifacts of the technique
and added a great deal of nonportable, complicated DOS code. But it ran
much, much faster than other fractal engines of the time.
   With the advent of the 486DX, math-coprocessors became built-in
hardware; in a modern pentium, fractint doesn't really gain speed this
way, to my knowledge. So if we consider only what's best for relatively
new PCs, and if we don't worry about the very very large workload of
virtually rebuilding the fractint source code, it's definitely time to do
away with integer math. On the other hand, there are a lot of 486SX or
less users out there. On the gripping hand, they can still use old
versions of fractint if they want. Me, I think it's time to move
forward... assuming we find some willing victims to plow through every
last bit of code...

   BTW, for those who've made it this far, can we PLEEZE promise to base
this code in GNU C++ and not proprietary Microsquish stuff? and consider
writing win95 interfaces with Borland or someone, just to preserve the
free and open tradition fractint represents against the evil onslaught of
microsoft Everything?


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Date: 07 Oct 1997 16:06:22 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail]  writes:
> ANNNND. What is the big deal with snowflakecolor with float=yes. I tried
> it with my pentium 166 and it only took about 2.5 minutes at the sixth
> iteration. And I didn't see any missing pieces. I didn't go any higher.

With L-systems, the computation time tends to go up exponentially,
rather than linearly.  That is why at order 7 you should expect it to
go significantly longer than 2.5 minutes.  (I think people reported it
going at about 12 minutes on a P166).

> ANNND since you said it was o.k. to ask simple questions here's one:
> Do you mean delete integer math in favor of real numbers ( 1,2, 3 versus
> 1.0, 2.0, 3.0)?
> I use real numbers all the time when I play around, is fractint just
> ignoring me?

Ultimately everything in the computer is either a 1 or a 0.  "Integer
math" refers to using instructions that manipulate integer quantities.
If you take the number 1.5 and multiply it by a scale factor, like
10000, then you have 15000, an integer.  Using integer arithmatic with
a scale factor in this fashion is called "fixed point", because of the
scale factor, you have a fixed number of digits to the right of the
decimal point when you do computations in integer arithmatic.
Fractint uses integer math and fixed-point arithmatic when it can to
avoid the more costly floating point instructions.  Until the 486
generation of machines, floating point instructions were emulated in
software unless a hardware coprocessing chip was installed in the
machine.  Thus, if an integer add operation had a normalized cost of 1,
a floating-point add operation would have a normalized cost of 10
without the coprocessor.  (The numbers here are for the purposes of
explanation and have no bearing on the actual cost of such operations
on a specific processor.)

"Floating point" operations carry around two quantities for each
number -- the mantissa and the exponent.  The mantissa maintains the
significant digits of the quantity and the exponent is used as a scale
factor to increase the dynamic range of the representable quantities.
Think of a number in "scientific notation", like 6.023 x 10^23; the
mantissa is "6.023" and the exponent is "23".  Most modern
microprocessors have hardware accelerated floating point operations,
and so the advantage of using fixed-point arithmatic and integer
instructions isn't as great as it used to be.  However, once you get
to arbitrary precision calculations, they tend to be implemented as a
chain of integer math instructions operating on the separate digits of
the arbitrary precision quantity.  Most CPUs have integer performance
(in terms of calculations/second) that exceeds their floating point
performance.

So fractint isn't ignoring your fractional numbers when you input
them, but if the numbers are within the range where fractint can use
its integer math code to perform the computation (and float=no), then
it will use a fixed-point algorithm.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:
Date: 07 Oct 1997 17:12:37 -0500



[e-mail] wrote:

> ANNNND. What is the big deal with snowflakecolor with float=yes. I tried
> it with my pentium 166 and it only took about 2.5 minutes at the sixth
> iteration. And I didn't see any missing pieces. I didn't go any higher.

The big deal WAS with float = no.  As we've found out, snowflakecolor works
perfectly with float = yes, even at levels 7 and 8.  (Level 8 took 9 hours
14 min 40.02 seconds on my Pentium Pro 180 at 1024x768x256!) Just use
float=yes and you'll be fine.

> ANNND since you said it was o.k. to ask simple questions here's one:
> Do you mean delete integer math in favor of real numbers ( 1,2, 3 versus
> 1.0, 2.0, 3.0)?
> I use real numbers all the time when I play around, is fractint just
> ignoring me?

Not really.  Fractint uses real numbers all the way through.  It's just when
Fractint goes to calculate the image, it does some programming hocus-pocus
to represent real numbers (1.24...) as integer types in the program (74593
or whatever it comes out to).  This was great when math coprocessors were
expensive and not widely used, as integer math ran MUCH faster on the 386
than floating-point math did (calculating numbers while keeping track of a
decimal point).  However, times change, and the Pentium series does
floating-point math as fast as (if not faster than) integer math with its
built-in math coprocessor.  So integer math doesn't help very much now, and
that's why the programmers are thinking about dumping it.  I hope this
cleared things up, and if it doesn't, or I've made some serious error
somewhere, Tim should be able to help much more than I can.  After all, he's
one of the programmers!  <g>

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use windows because:
1.  Solaris doesn't run on PCs :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a workstation AND a server :(
:( :(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store ?!  ;)"
-- Me


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) MFC vs. OWL
Date: 07 Oct 1997 23:05:26 -0400

Ian,

 -    BTW, for those who've made it this far, can we PLEEZE promise to base
 - this code in GNU C++ and not proprietary Microsquish stuff?

The core of FractInt--the fractal calculation routines, speedup algorithms,
coloring techniques, formula parser, etc.--can be written in 32-bit code
without dependence on *any* particular compiler, even Gnu C++.  Interface
stuff and screen-access stuff will of course be different on each platform.

 - and consider writing win95 interfaces with Borland or someone, just to
 - preserve the free and open tradition fractint represents against the evil
 - onslaught of microsoft Everything?

So rather than use proprietary Microsoft interface class libraries (MFC),
you'd rather use proprietary Borland interface class libraries (OWL), to
make a *political* statement?  Sorry, this seems rather silly.  If you want
to write the interface with OWL instead of MFC, that's fine, but I would
hope you have a better reason than "I hate Microsoft".

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) MFC vs. OWL
Date: 07 Oct 1997 23:26:32 -0400 (EDT)


Damien M. Jones wrote:
>
> Ian,
>
>  -    BTW, for those who've made it this far, can we PLEEZE promise to base
>  - this code in GNU C++ and not proprietary Microsquish stuff?
>
> The core of FractInt--the fractal calculation routines, speedup algorithms,
> coloring techniques, formula parser, etc.--can be written in 32-bit code
> without dependence on *any* particular compiler, even Gnu C++.  Interface
> stuff and screen-access stuff will of course be different on each platform.
>

   Granted. Looking back, I'm not quite sure what I was referring to.
<sigh> gotta stop posting when half-asleep...

>  - and consider writing win95 interfaces with Borland or someone, just to
>  - preserve the free and open tradition fractint represents against the evil
>  - onslaught of microsoft Everything?
>
> So rather than use proprietary Microsoft interface class libraries (MFC),
> you'd rather use proprietary Borland interface class libraries (OWL), to
> make a *political* statement?  Sorry, this seems rather silly.  If you want
> to write the interface with OWL instead of MFC, that's fine, but I would
> hope you have a better reason than "I hate Microsoft".
>

   Well, if you grant that there's no really non-proprietary way to code
a win95 interface, I'd rather use Borland sort of the way you support
your local grocery man, all other things being equal. I don't have direct
evidence that their windowing libraries are sounder than microsoft's, but
I do feel I'm on good ground claiming that other, more easily measurable
aspects of Borland's compiler are stabler, better designed and better
optimized, and that the average microsoft product has an awful lot of
bugs that look like they're of the 'software team just didn't care'
variety, as opposed to the 'really hard bug to get rid of' variety.
That's somewhat shaky argument, of course.
   But I wasn't really volunteering for the thankless task of writing
win95 interfaces, though if my bosses stop keeping me at work eleven
hours a day, I might sign up to do XWindows...
   at any rate, my thanks for pinning me when I was talking out of my
arse. I deserved it.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) the death of DOS fractint
Date: 07 Oct 1997 23:38:16 -0400 (EDT)

>I didn't say windows was less resource hungry than DOS; I said that 32-bit
>code is likely to be faster than 16-bit code.  This is my
>understanding for modern processors anyway (pentium).

32 bit code != Windows code. I have written 32 bit apps in DOS myself.
DJGPP is the key.
Also, modular code and interface libraries does not mean Windows either.
(See other tangent threads.)


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: (fractint) Real-vs-Integer
Date: 08 Oct 1997 10:59:05 -0500

Thanks for the answers to my question concerning integer math! it
actually helped me understand it!

Did anyone try my deranged m-set NukerBrot?

later,
Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael C Taylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) MFC vs. OWL
Date: 08 Oct 1997 13:24:05 -0300 (ADT)

On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Damien M. Jones wrote:

>  -    BTW, for those who've made it this far, can we PLEEZE promise to base
>  - this code in GNU C++ and not proprietary Microsquish stuff?
>
> The core of FractInt--the fractal calculation routines, speedup algorithms,
> coloring techniques, formula parser, etc.--can be written in 32-bit code
> without dependence on *any* particular compiler, even Gnu C++.  Interface
> stuff and screen-access stuff will of course be different on each platform.

I think that a possible goal for fractint 30.0 :) would be to have one
common source code tree, a la gcc or most gnu products, which could help
keep development of multiple targets closer (DOS, MS-Windows, X-Windows).

> So rather than use proprietary Microsoft interface class libraries (MFC),
> you'd rather use proprietary Borland interface class libraries (OWL), to

From a development pov, current Borland and Watcom C++ compilers
ship with MFC libraries, so using MFC does make more sense.

Though if the 'fractint developer's compiler of choice' was a freely
available compiler such as djgpp it has the added advantage of younger
programmers (i.e. students) would be more likely to contribute since often
they cannot afford commerical compilers such as Visual C++ or C++Builder.

I know that as a student I couldn't even afford the academic pricing of
Visual C++, but could afford to FTP (free) djgpp.

Since I'm not actually a fractint contrib, I don't hold my own opinion as
very meanful.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Edward Avis <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) RE: removing integer code from fractint
Date: 08 Oct 1997 17:49:49 +0100

IMHO removing integer calculation from fractint would be a really bad
idea.

Over the years, processor manufacturers had put a great deal of effort
into impoving the floating point performance of their chips. For
example, all Intel x86 chips now have an FPU as standard whereas ten
years ago it would have been a costly extra. From the 486 to the
Pentium, integer performance was only doubled at most (for the same
clock speed) but floating point was more than three times as fast.

However, the boom predicted some years ago in floating-point heavy
applications has not materialized. CAD, computer animation and so on use
just as much floating-point muscle as they ever did, but for the vast
majority of users almost all applications are integer-based.

Chip manufacturers are beginning to realize this and refocus on integer
performance rather than floating-point. Already, we have cheap
Pentium-alikes which skimp on the FPU to cut costs - yet for almost all
everyday use, they are just as fast.

What I am saying is, just because right now it is faster to use
floating-point on a Pentium II than to use integers, in five years' time
integer speed may have caught up again.

So don't burn your bridges.

--
Ed Avis

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Hine <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: Which compiler(s)...
Date: 08 Oct 1997 10:50:54 -0600 (MDT)

>On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Damien M. Jones wrote:
>
>>  -    BTW, for those who've made it this far, can we PLEEZE promise to base
>>  - this code in GNU C++ and not proprietary Microsquish stuff?
>>

(snipped much of Michael's comments...)

>
>Though if the 'fractint developer's compiler of choice' was a freely
>available compiler such as djgpp it has the added advantage of younger
>programmers (i.e. students) would be more likely to contribute since often
>they cannot afford commerical compilers such as Visual C++ or C++Builder.
>
>I know that as a student I couldn't even afford the academic pricing of
>Visual C++, but could afford to FTP (free) djgpp.

In my opinion, this is a valid consideration.  I'm dismayed at how few of
my fellow students are aware of Fractint, but it would be great if those
who are could use the free DJGPP compiler (which is what I'm using) to
write their contributions... oth the other hand, perhaps there aren't
enough financially-disadvantaged-students-who-would-be-contributors out
there to make it worthwhile, if there is some _great_ advantage to using
a Visual package (not compatible with DJGPP) intead... my three dracmas'
worth...

PS - anyone have any ideas on my truecolor autokey problem?  Anyone???

Peas, Jason (Spidey) Hine

 _ __ ___ ____ _____ ______ _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _
 _ __ ___                          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___         Jason N Hine              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        GIS Specialist              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___      Colorado State University          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___ Pedology and Soil  Information Systems Lab  ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        [phone]              ___ __ _
 _ __ ___  http://boralf.agsci.colostate.edu/~jason   ___ __ _
 _ __ ___        [e-mail]          ___ __ _
 _ __ ___ ____ _____ ______ _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: removing integer code from fractint
Date: 08 Oct 1997 13:17:00 -0400 (EDT)


Edward Avis wrote:

> Chip manufacturers are beginning to realize this and refocus on integer
> performance rather than floating-point. Already, we have cheap
> Pentium-alikes which skimp on the FPU to cut costs - yet for almost all
> everyday use, they are just as fast.

   That's a bit of a stretch. The K6, say, does test slower than the
equivalent pentium II on floating-point, but it's still running
floating-point faster than any earlier-generation chip; and I'd really
guess that while the exact performance ratio between the two modes will
vary over time, I think we can continue to expect them to advance at
similar rates. Considering the sheer overhead associated with int math, I
don't think that there are many situations where people will want to run
in float=no, any more than they do now...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ramiro Perez <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 08 Oct 1997 12:48:48 +0500 (GMT)

Hello

Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
fractint 19.6, for inverting the ifs attractors defined in the fractint
ifs files, and rewritting it for fractint formula types and for fractint
par files. It takes a fractint ifs file, scan it, then if there is an ifs
definition, and if it isn't 3D ifs and has less than 9 transformations,
the program writes the formula and its correspondient par file..
The program is in my web pages, in the gallery section, but if you wish to
go directly, here is the address:
http://www.utp.ac.pa/~rperez/ifsinv.html
By the way, this program is a new release of an old one that I have for
the same work, but this one if far more simpler and this time the program
optimizes the formulas, so it runs faster than the old one..
Any comment will be greatly appreciated..


                        Ramiro Perez


ps. sorry for the bad english..
frm:f2_J{
a0=0.01000,d0=0.16000,
a1=0.20000,b1=-0.26000,c1=0.23000,d1=0.22000,
a2=-0.15000,b2=0.28000,c2=0.26000,d2=0.24000,
a3=0.85000,d3=0.85000,
al0=0.00160,
al1=0.10380,k1=-0.13000,l1=-0.10000,
al2=-0.10880,k2=0.14000,l2=0.07500,
al3=0.72250,l3=-0.59500,
z=pixel:
x=real(z)
y=imag(z)
o0=(d0*x)/al0+flip((a0*y)/al0)
op0=|o0-p2|
o1=(d1*x-b1*y+k1)/al1+flip((-c1*x+a1*y+l1)/al1)
op1=|o1-p2|
o2=(d2*x-b2*y+k2)/al2+flip((-c2*x+a2*y+l2)/al2)
op2=|o2-p2|
o3=(d3*x)/al3+flip((a3*y+l3)/al3)
op3=|o3-p2|
IF (op0<op1 && op0<op2 && op0<op3)
z=o0
ELSEIF (op1<op0 && op1<op2 && op1<op3)
z=o1
ELSEIF (op2<op1 && op2<op0 && op2<op3)
z=o2
ELSEIF (op3<op0 && op3<op1 && op3<op2)
z=o3
ENDIF
|z|<=p1
}


f2J    { ; t=4
 type=formula formulafile=ifs.frm formulaname=f2_J
 params=10000/0/0.004/2.375 float=y corners=-8/8/-1/11
}

frm:crystal_J{
a0=0.69697,b0=-0.48106,c0=-0.39394,d0=-0.66288,
a1=0.09091,b1=-0.44318,c1=0.51515,d1=-0.09470,
al0=-0.65152,k0=-3.52073,l0=-8.00223,
al1=0.21970,k1=-0.88672,l1=1.93740,
z=pixel:
x=real(z)
y=imag(z)
o0=(d0*x-b0*y+k0)/al0+flip((-c0*x+a0*y+l0)/al0)
op0=|o0-p2|
o1=(d1*x-b1*y+k1)/al1+flip((-c1*x+a1*y+l1)/al1)
op1=|o1-p2|
IF (op0<=op1)
z=o0
ELSE
z=o1
ENDIF
|z|<=p1
}


crystalJ    { ; t=2
 type=formula formulafile=ifs.frm formulaname=crystal_J
 params=10000/0/-0.224/5.121 float=y corners=-8/8/-1/11
}

 Ramiro Perez Clare Nash                          .        _/        .    .
 System Administrator               .     *     .        _/      *
 PANNet                        *     +    .         _/ _/ _/   .     + .
 e-mails:                  .       .           _/    _/    _/       +       .
 [e-mail]                          _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/       .
 [e-mail]       .     *      _/    _/    _/           .      *
 [e-mail]        +        +  _/ _/ _/      *     .          .
 Web pages:                          .       _/         .          *
 http://www.utp.ac.pa/~rperez    *         _/     .  +   .     .        +





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 08 Oct 1997 15:10:49 -0400

            Hello World.


I'm using Fractint 19.6 on a 486dx33/CGA. I have make a few
tests on my configuration. In general, float is faster or
equal than integer, but there was differences between the
two modes. Recently M.L. Newsted Jr. have posted a little
formula who behave differently in int or in float.

And I'm working on a long term project with this formula :

frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
                ; 19 Juillet 1997
                z = rand:
                z = fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
                |z| <= real(p1)
                }

who works very fine (for me :-) in integer mode, but is
completly broken in float mode...

Here is a sample parameter. Try it in real and integer
mode, and play with the formula. rand seems broken in
float mode.

demo_of_rand_bug   { ; created Oct 08, 1997 in Toulouse
  reset=1960 type=formula
  formulaname=rand_generic function=recip/sqr passes=1
  center-mag=0.0260181/0.0209436/0.5956599 params=6/0
  inside=zmag outside=real biomorph=64
  }

May be with only one math mode in Fractint, this type of
problems will go in a "bug-eater-black-hole" ...


        Best regards from Toulouse, France.

        Thierry Boudet.




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Real-vs-Integer
Date: 08 Oct 1997 14:32:39 -0500


On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:27:47 -0400 (EDT) [e-mail]
(Michael Traynor) writes:
>>Did anyone try my deranged m-set NukerBrot?
>
>I tried it a bit, and found that it is very like a mandebrot with
>inversion radius 1 (on the "Y" screen).  It appears just the same at
>low
>zooms using FP.  It is more different with integer math, but that
>seems to
>be an integer math artifact.  If you have any images from this fractal
>which are truly different from the mandelbrot, in FP, could you post
>the
>parameters to the list (or send them to me).  I don't have the time,
>or
>recall my complex math well enought to figure it out, but the Nuke may
>be
>arithmetically the same as the inverted Mandelbrot.  Maybe someone
>else
>will let us know.
>
>--
>Mike Traynor
>
>People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing
>they like.
>    Abraham Lincoln
>
Honestly, I am just now beggining to wrote my own fractals, and obviuosly
I based that one on the Mandelbrot. But I thought it "was" quite
different than an ordinary Mandelbrot. Especially when I zoomed. It
seemed to me more chaotic than the "smaller mandels in smaller mandels in
smaller mandels etc.." My fractal and some more that I have writen seem
to me to not be quite so symetrical. And isn't that the point?
Still, I will certainly not try to correct anyone on this subject. I am
still learning.

thanks,

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Muth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Remove integer math?
Date: 08 Oct 1997 19:09:45 -0400 (EDT)


I vote yes.

I've been following the thread about the future of Fractint with
interest, especially about whether to retain the integer code.  My
feeling is to go ahead, dump the integer code, and make room for
more advanced features, but keep the DOS version as long as DOS
lives.  (And as long as a program such as Fractint for DOS exists,
DOS will live.)

I run Fractint on a 486-100mhz machine, and I notice very little
speed advantage when integer math is used.  In fact, on many
fractals, floating math is quite a bit faster.  I realize that some
fractal artists have created images based upon the artifacts of
integer math, and would not be able to reproduce these images if
integer math were not available.  These artists could merely keep an
old version of Fractint with integer math capability on their disks,
and use it whenever they wished to work with their integer fractals.

I admit to being a DOS fan, (I'm writing this in WordPerfect 5.1).
I stayed with DOS when everyone was turning to Windows because it is
*fast*!  When I open WP51, I need only blink my eyes and I'm ready
to go.  When I open a Windows app, I have time to go to the next
room, pour a drink, and return to my desk before I'm ready to work.

Also, when I'm running DOS, I feel as though I am actually con-
trolling the computer, while Windows makes me feel as though someone
else were doing it for me.  But these are my personal opinions, and
I realize that DOS, with all its limitations, just can't compete with
the windowed environments.  I therefore do use Windows in my
business, but I do so only because the programs I need are not
available for DOS.

That said, I must report a small bug I have found in version 19.6 of
Fractint.  I have noticed that whenever I try to set the ranges to
a value greater than 32767, I get the error message, "I couldn't
understand the argument"  Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I
don't think so. . .


Jim Muth
[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 08 Oct 1997 20:27:17 -0500

Hey Thierry.
I checked out your fractal you sent out.
It "was" different in FP! I also used Bio-morph (256) and it looked
pretty cool.

I'm not sure what you mean by posting the parameters, maybe you could
explain it or send an example.
Anyway, thanks for trying the one I sent out.
Here is another:

Egg (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0
    c = pixel
    d = pixel:
    z = (z*z + c) / d
    }

Well, see ya.
Hey What's the weather like in Toulouse?

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling


Nuke

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:10:49 -0400 Thierry Boudet
<[e-mail]> writes:
>            Hello World.
>
>
>I'm using Fractint 19.6 on a 486dx33/CGA. I have make a few
>tests on my configuration. In general, float is faster or
>equal than integer, but there was differences between the
>two modes. Recently M.L. Newsted Jr. have posted a little
>formula who behave differently in int or in float.
>
>And I'm working on a long term project with this formula :
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
>                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
>                ; 19 Juillet 1997
>                z = rand:
>                z = fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
>                |z| <= real(p1)
>                }
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>who works very fine (for me :-) in integer mode, but is
>completly broken in float mode...
>
>Here is a sample parameter. Try it in real and integer
>mode, and play with the formula. rand seems broken in
>float mode.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>demo_of_rand_bug   { ; created Oct 08, 1997 in Toulouse
>  reset=1960 type=formula
>  formulaname=rand_generic function=recip/sqr passes=1
>  center-mag=0.0260181/0.0209436/0.5956599 params=6/0
>  inside=zmag outside=real biomorph=64
>  }
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>May be with only one math mode in Fractint, this type of
>problems will go in a "bug-eater-black-hole" ...
>
>
>        Best regards from Toulouse, France.
>
>        Thierry Boudet.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
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>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 08 Oct 1997 20:27:17 -0500

Hey Thierry.
I checked out your fractal you sent out.
It "was" different in FP! I also used Bio-morph (256) and it looked
pretty cool.

I'm not sure what you mean by posting the parameters, maybe you could
explain it or send an example.
Anyway, thanks for trying the one I sent out.
Here is another:

Egg (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0
    c = pixel
    d = pixel:
    z = (z*z + c) / d
    }

Well, see ya.
Hey What's the weather like in Toulouse?

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling


Nuke

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:10:49 -0400 Thierry Boudet
<[e-mail]> writes:
>            Hello World.
>
>
>I'm using Fractint 19.6 on a 486dx33/CGA. I have make a few
>tests on my configuration. In general, float is faster or
>equal than integer, but there was differences between the
>two modes. Recently M.L. Newsted Jr. have posted a little
>formula who behave differently in int or in float.
>
>And I'm working on a long term project with this formula :
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
>                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
>                ; 19 Juillet 1997
>                z = rand:
>                z = fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
>                |z| <= real(p1)
>                }
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>who works very fine (for me :-) in integer mode, but is
>completly broken in float mode...
>
>Here is a sample parameter. Try it in real and integer
>mode, and play with the formula. rand seems broken in
>float mode.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>demo_of_rand_bug   { ; created Oct 08, 1997 in Toulouse
>  reset=1960 type=formula
>  formulaname=rand_generic function=recip/sqr passes=1
>  center-mag=0.0260181/0.0209436/0.5956599 params=6/0
>  inside=zmag outside=real biomorph=64
>  }
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>May be with only one math mode in Fractint, this type of
>problems will go in a "bug-eater-black-hole" ...
>
>
>        Best regards from Toulouse, France.
>
>        Thierry Boudet.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
>Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
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>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) (Fwd) BOUNCE [e-mail]:    Non-member submission f
Date: 08 Oct 1997 22:48:15 -0600


I was shocked to learn a few months ago that
Microsoft C++ does not support 80bit long double floats!
I asked on the C++ newsgroup and it was confirmed.
So why would Fractint move to the current VC++
and take a hit like that?

What is the corresponding support from Borland C++ 5.0x
Borland C++Builder?   Watcom C++? DJGPP compiler?

Jay





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Administrator out of town
Date: 08 Oct 1997 22:48:15 -0600

Yeah I know I said list administration issues were off topic, but
here I go violating my own suggestion <grin!> Actually I overstated
the case, there probably are some list administration messages of
general interest that would be on topic. Hmm ... if all list
administration messages are off topic, then a message stating that as
the policy would be off topic <heh heh!>

I'll be out of town until Sunday. The list can go on merrily as
always, I'm just alerting you all in case anyone needs any special
list administration services. I won't be able to help with any
special requests until Sunday.

Just a reminder, this list only accepts postings from addresses that
majordomo recognizes as a fractint list subscriber. Sometimes
postings bounce because folks have posted from a different account,
or from some reason the return address is different than the
subscribed email address. For isolated cases I usually just post such
bounced messages by hand, so you may not have noticed. When I'm
really on the ball I also let folks know it happened, especially if
it happens several times. This is not a big problem for most people,
although it was bothersome for a couple of folks who have "anti-spam"
return addresses.

Tim

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Real-vs-Integer
Date: 08 Oct 1997 17:13:55 -0700


Nuke wrote:
>Did anyone try my deranged m-set NukerBrot?
I did and here is my reply, second try, first one is lost in bitspace.  :-(

There is a one to one mapping of the regular Mset to this view. Everything
is there, just jammed into a different space.

Jay

10/7/97
Newsted wrote about his nuke formula.  I played with that some years ago.
It is simpler to do this:

frm:Nuke2 (xaxis) { ; Jay Hill
     z = 0, c = pixel:  ; basic mandel up to here
     z = (z*z/c + 1)   ;  insideout eye shaped MSet
     }

nuke2_view         { ; Jay Hill
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nuke2.frm formulaname=Nuke2
  center-mag=1.34919/5.96e-006/0.4962412
  colors=0D0000<15>9Tx<22>36Q25P24N13M12K00I<15>001000000<2>800B00F10<4>T3\
  0W40Z50a60c70<2>jB0lC0mD0oE0<2>tJ0vK0wM0xN0<4>zV0zW0yT0<2>sJ0qF0nE0mE0<6\
  >T50Q30O30<3>E10C00B00<10>100000100200<5>B0AD0CE0F<20>k0w<7>N0QK0MJ0L<17\
  >401000<2>010020040<26>0d00f00e0<23>0B0090080060050030020000000
  }







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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) Conformal Mappings and Beautiful Mandelbrots
Date: 09 Oct 1997 00:40:16 -0400 (EDT)


Ever noticed a sort of beauty and symmetry to mandelbrots and fractals
from complex number formulas lacking in real-real formulas like some of
the ones in The beauty Of Fractals? My suspicion has been it is because
complex mappings are conformal: right angles are preserved.
For instance, look at the square of (a+bi). The real part is a^2-b^2, the
imaginary part 2ab. These equations both describe hyperbolas; the families
of hyperbolas defined setting x^2-y^2 const and 2xy const are orthogonal
families, they cross at right angles. An idea of mine has been this:

Start with an implicit differential equation. dy/dx=f(x,y). Solve it. (Yes
this can be tough.) Then solve the inverse dy/dx=-1/f(x,y). Their
solution sets will be orthogoanl families of curves. Or, get a function
such as f(x,y)=const. Get dy/dx. Negate and invert and solve the differential
equation as before to get a curve family g(x,y)=const orthogonal to the curves
f(x,y)=const.


Now imagine defining a map from R2 (real by real cartesian plane) to R2 by
x'=f(x,y), y'=g(x,y). This is a conformal map. A combination of several
such conformal maps and adding a paremeter or three might produce
worthwhile Julia/Mandelbrot sets.

For example, take the ellipses x^2+2y^2=const. 2x=-4y(dy/dx) so dy/dx is
-x/2y. Put dy/dx=2y/x =-1/(-x/2y). This is separable: dy/2y = dx/x.
Integrate both sides: 1/2ln |y| = ln |x| + C   or, taking exponentials of
both sides, root y = xe^c or y=Kx^2, a family of parabolas.
So the mappings would be: x'=x^2+2y^2, y'=y/x^2 (solving for K=y').
Try them out I'd love to hear the results.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Shauna Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:
Date: 08 Oct 1997 20:15:42 -1000

On  7 Oct 97 at 16:33, [e-mail] spoke about :

> It seems that ediingt formulas and such could be done alot easier and
> faster using pop-up windows for entering new information.

Agreed ...

> Plus, I wouldn't have to close fractint and edit my formula (simple
> as they are) and re-open fractint, select display, type etc... I
> could just leave Fractint open and maximize, edit,minimize, then
> try my changes. This would be great for us who use trial and error
> more than mathematical planning.

I don't have that problem. Of course, I use OS/2 ...

Whatever revisions happen to Fractint, I hope it will still run in a
DOS session under OS/2.

Another blast of bits from David
Visit our boring web page: http://www.aloha.net/~shauna
Visit the Hawaii Astronomical Society: http://www.hawastsoc.org
For the best Hawaii & Pacific Basin surf forecast: mailto:[e-mail]

Random Thought for this Nanosecond
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Justin Kolodziej <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Real-vs-Integer
Date: 08 Oct 1997 18:44:28 -0500


>I don't have the time,
>or
>recall my complex math well enought to figure it out, but the Nuke may
>be
>arithmetically the same as the inverted Mandelbrot.  Maybe someone
>else
>will let us know.
>
>--
>Mike Traynor


I worked on the formula a bit, and came up with the following:
z(n+1)=(z*z)/c + 1
or, if you substitute 1/c for c,
z(n+1)=c*z*z + 1
This last formula is the same (I hope) as inverting the original by a circle
centered on (0,0) with radius 1.  The resulting picture looks like the
M-set, but why would that be? Any Ideas?

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Windows because:
1. Solaris doesn't run on PCs :(
2. I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
 :( :(
3. When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local computer
store? ;) "




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ethel MacKay" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) DOS Versions of Fractint
Date: 09 Oct 1997 22:34:38 +0000

We are new to the Fractint mailing list and although we do not
understand most of what you have been talking about, because we
don't write fractal formulas and such, we just wanted to put our two
bits in about whether Fractint should continue in DOS versions in
future.
We say yes, continue to ALWAYS make DOS versions!

There are probably many people like us that prefer the simplicity of
DOS Fractint versions over Windows or who don't have pcs
that are up to running resource hungry Windows versions.
My 64 year old husband is the main Fractint user here.
 I taught him to use the computer and run Fractint when he read
Chaos theory and got interested in the Mandlebrot Set.
He started with version 17.1 and now has version 19.6.
He tried the Windows Version and he hated it. The Windows
themselves kept distracting him and he soon went back to the DOS
version. We started running fractals on a 386 and now have a Pentium
133 with lots of memory.
To summarise: DOS programs in the case of Fractint (and Povray) are
much easier to use for people who are not all that happy about using
computers but use them only because there are programs like Fractint
(and Povray) for DOS which they get great enjoyment from.
Regards to all,
Ethel MacKay

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Guy Marson)
Subject: (fractint) TYPE=JULIBROT
Date: 09 Oct 1997 17:07:56 +0200

--=====================_876434876==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,

In the Fractint Wish-list Justin Kolodziej asket for "no more integer math"...
The poorly known TYPE=JULIBROT fractals are able to build beautiful 3d
stereo-pairs, but only in integer-math. Setting the FPU=ON, causes flat 2d
fractals (except for those orbits wich use functions like sin, cos, tan and
cotan). To give you an idea, I attachet a .par file to this mail..
Sorry, but all the Julibrots are very slow-running even on a P200! To see
the difference, switch on and of the FPU with the letter <F>. If you like to
see the fractals 3-dimensional, the stereo-pairs and/or the 2x3 and 5x5
pairs must be fused like the "magic-eye" pictures that means, with the eyes
in parallel or, if indicated, with the eyes crossed, that means: the left
eye is looking to the right side and the rigth eye is looking to the left
side.. be patient, it mostly works after a while  8~(   -   :)

To build some "parallel-eyes" 3d fractals, the "Z" screen option <depht of
z> must be negative, a positive number for <depth of z> builds
"crossed-eyes" 3d fractals..

So please Stone-Soupers keep up the option: FPU ON/OFF.. even if the
difference (in the JULIBROTS: FPU ON/OFF) results in a programming fault do
not correct this "fault"

thanks in advance!

enjoy experimenting with the JULIBROTS.. ;)

Guy

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a-6%`-6%a-$)a-$!m-Mi`-$!0)#"MH@0XCA*KEQGP26)e,c-b$5!JI3d0+5%!!!:

--=====================_876434876==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Fungi for fun = FunGUY... @:-]

(Guy Marson, 45b, rue de Bettembourg, L-5810 Hesperange)
(Tel./Fax : [phone])  e-mail: [e-mail]

--=====================_876434876==_--


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From:    [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 09 Oct 1997 15:17:16 GMT

Op  8 Oct 97 om 12:48 schreef [e-mail] over:
"(fractint) IFS Formulas"

> Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
> fractint 19.6, for inverting the ifs attractors defined in the

Very nice effects? Does the number of iterations play a role in it?

> than 9 transformations, the program writes the formula and its

Why 9?

> comment will be greatly appreciated..

As I did.

> ps. sorry for the bad english..

That I don't see. My native language is Dutch.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

Some questions about the par.

> f2J    { ; t=4
>  type=formula formulafile=ifs.frm formulaname=f2_J
>  params=10000/0/0.004/2.375 float=y corners=-8/8/-1/11
> }


What = t? Params = ??/??/?? What are these numbers in plain English?
No MaxIter in the par file. Does this parameter plays a role in
generating a nice image? What is in your opinion a good color file?
I'm not good in generating good colorpalette's.

Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
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From: Burger <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Removing integer math from Fractint? Wait a minute....
Date: 09 Oct 1997 16:55:34 +0200

***this is a repost. third attempt, actually. havent got a clue what the
problem is. my adress seems to be allright***

On the subject of  removing integer code from Fractint, Tim Wegner wrote:

> There are only two arguments I can think of against this.
>
> 1. There are still millions of older machines around the world
> without FPUs. The most recent use the 486SX chips.
>
> (I think that is a weak argument as time goes by.)
>
> 2. Artists have a huge number of images that depend on artifacts of
> integer math.
>
> There's no good answer to this except "keep your old copy of
> Fractint".
>

Unless I have missed something, until now I haven't heard much comment on
the second argument. One of my favorite images features this so called
artifact. I have stored it in the first of the two parameterfile-entries
that follow. I have stored the same image with option float=yes in the
second entry. As you can see, float=yes or float=no makes quite a
difference.
(please read on after this parameter section)
-------8<------------------------------------
floatno            { ; (c) 1997 [e-mail]
  reset=1730 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm
  formulaname=richard1 passes=1 float=n
  corners=-0.81683618/-0.55938143/0.797761261/0.68775022/-0.67134571/0.603\
  740633 maxiter=900 inside=0 logmap=yes potential=255/350/500
  colors=222C6E<44>KRILSJMTI<14>FCBEAAEBA<12>MRLNSMOUNPVORWQ<12>lmknomnnl<\
  29>R3C<14>LJFKLGLMH<13>ecYge_ge_<13>gdVhcUgbT<13>JBFH9DHAD<13>TQQUSRVSR<\
  13>nURpVSpVS<13>e_Sd`Td`TdaT<10>ahUC5EC5EC5E
  }

floatyes           { ; (c) 1997 [e-mail]
  reset=1730 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm
  formulaname=richard1 passes=1
  corners=-0.81683842/-0.55938598/0.797753176/0.687746147/-0.67134795/0.60\
  3736559 float=y maxiter=900 inside=0 logmap=yes
  potential=255/350/500
  colors=222C6E<42>KQIKRIKRILSJMTIMSI<13>FCBEAAEBA<11>LQKMRLNSMOUNPVO<13>l\
  mknomnnl<29>R3C<12>MHFLIFLJFKLGLMHNNI<10>b`WdbXecYge_ge_<13>gdVhcUgbT<13\
  >JBFH9DHAD<13>TQQUSRVSR<13>nURpVSpVS<13>e_Sd`Td`TdaT<10>ahUC5EC5EC5E
  }
---------8<------------------------------------
Now I really don't mean to urge the developers of Fractint to keep integer
math, join the Integerology Church and set fire to all PC's with 32-bit
software (the old XT's and AT's with their 5'25 floppy drives probably burn
better anyway).

I think that if removing integer math stimulates the development of
Fractint, then please do so! Just to compare, think about the development
of wordprocessors. Some of you might remember Wordstar, a wordprocessor of
the 80's, or the early versions of WordPerfect . Compare this to recent
Window-versions of MS-Word or WordPerfect for Windows and it's like
comparing the Mayflower to the Spaceshuttle. And the Spaceshuttle doesn't
have sails, does it? So if it is possible to do the same kind of
development with Fractint, and if this involves removing the sails of
integer math, then I guess it should be done. Fractint is a wonderful
program as it is, but there are so many wonderful new ideas to implement.

BUT what about my poor fractals that have that integer-artifact?? With all
respect, there is something about Tim's suggestion I don't like (keeping an
old version of Fractint available for yourself in case you want to
regenerate one of  those silly old images). For example, in a future
release there may be a coloring option that I want to apply on a image that
has the integer-artifact. If the integer-math would have been removed, that
wouldn't be possible.

So here is my suggestion, at the risk of making a fool of myself because I
don't know xxx about integer- and floating-point math, not to mention
32-bit software development. If somebody can find out what exactly causes
the integer-artifact effect, would it be possible to simulate this effect
in floating-point math and introduce this as (let's say) an outside=intmath
option?

Now, wouldn't that be a challenge for the real programmer!!?? This morning
in the TV-news I saw a robot dancing the mambo, so if programmers can do
that, then I am sure that for you guys simulating the effect of
integer-math by using floating point math is a piece of cake....:-D

adios, do widzenia, houdoe, bye!
Jacco

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Les St Clair <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 09 Oct 1997 17:22:31 -0400

Hi Damien,

>>Just wanted to let everyone know that an update version of my FRM for n=
ew
coloring methods has been placed on my web site.<<

Good grief!! How long did it take for you to work that little lot out?

>>I have also included a PAR file that makes getting started with these
formulae easier.<<

Your examples are absolutely stunning. =


Thanks for sharing your work.

cheers, Les St Clair



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Why?
Date: 09 Oct 1997 19:40:49 -0500

I have a question (again) :|>
Why do you use, mess with, manipulate, study, or whatever with fractals
and fractint?
Personally, I find them to be uncannily (real word?) natural.
And lately I've been reviving my math to use it to write some rudimentary
farctals of my own.
 But what about you people out there in Mandel land?


"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ramiro Perez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 09 Oct 1997 19:44:37 +0500 (GMT)

On 9 Oct 1997, Wim de Lange wrote:

> "(fractint) IFS Formulas"
>
> > Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
> > fractint 19.6, for inverting the ifs attractors defined in the
>
> Very nice effects? Does the number of iterations play a role in it?

Yes, because since they are inverse to the ifs attractors, sometimes you
need more than 150 iterations to get a good image..

> > than 9 transformations, the program writes the formula and its
>
> Why 9?

In fact 8, because more IFS transformations, larger the formula
definition, and I think that fractint don't support definitions that
where too large (by the way, can anyone say to me what is the limit?)..

> Some questions about the par.
>
> What = t? Params = ??/??/?? What are these numbers in plain English?
> No MaxIter in the par file. Does this parameter plays a role in
> generating a nice image? What is in your opinion a good color file?
> I'm not good in generating good colorpalette's.

Ok, there is no maxiter nor a color definition because I prefer to leave
it to the control of the user..
In the case of the t=4; that means the number of
transformations, for example the Fern has 4. In the case of the Params,
the first number is the bailout number,next one, nothing, and the last two
are the julia-like constant for those fractals, (Yes, they are julia
sets..). A better explanation is in the readme.txt that is with the
program...

For the colors, I noticed that these fractals needs color maps with small
gradations, because in most of them the orbit tends to escape very fast..
That is why I use a bailout so large (10000!)

After some manipulations to the fractals produced by my program, you can
end with something interesting, for example:


fernJ{ ; t=4
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fern.par formulaname=fern_J
  passes=1 corners=-8/8/-1/11 params=10000/0/0.32/7.15 float=y
  maxiter=255 inside=255 colors=000<16>000010030<37>0x00z00z0<195>zzz
  }

frm:fern_J{
a0=0.01000,d0=0.16000,
a1=0.85000,b1=0.04000,c1=-0.04000,d1=0.85000,
a2=0.20000,b2=-0.26000,c2=0.23000,d2=0.22000,
a3=-0.15000,b3=0.28000,c3=0.26000,d3=0.24000,
al0=0.00160,
al1=0.72410,k1=0.06400,l1=-1.36000,
al2=0.10380,k2=-0.41600,l2=-0.32000,
al3=-0.10880,k3=0.12320,l3=0.06600,
z=pixel:
x=real(z)
y=imag(z)
o0=(d0*x)/al0+flip((a0*y)/al0)
op0=|o0-p2|
o1=(d1*x-b1*y+k1)/al1+flip((-c1*x+a1*y+l1)/al1)
op1=|o1-p2|
o2=(d2*x-b2*y+k2)/al2+flip((-c2*x+a2*y+l2)/al2)
op2=|o2-p2|
o3=(d3*x-b3*y+k3)/al3+flip((-c3*x+a3*y+l3)/al3)
op3=|o3-p2|
IF (op0<op1 && op0<op2 && op0<op3)
z=o0
ELSEIF (op1<op0 && op1<op2 && op1<op3)
z=o1
ELSEIF (op2<op1 && op2<op0 && op2<op3)
z=o2
ELSEIF (op3<op0 && op3<op1 && op3<op2)
z=o3
ENDIF
|z|<=p1
}

frm:stretch_J{
a0=0.51515,b0=-0.71970,c0=-0.69697,d0=-0.39394,
a1=0.39394,b1=0.16288,c1=0.42424,d1=-0.27652,
al0=-0.70455,k0=-2.56002,l0=-5.58475,
al1=-0.17803,k1=-0.26541,l1=-4.59526,
z=pixel:
x=real(z)
y=imag(z)
o0=(d0*x-b0*y+k0)/al0+flip((-c0*x+a0*y+l0)/al0)
op0=|o0-p2|
o1=(d1*x-b1*y+k1)/al1+flip((-c1*x+a1*y+l1)/al1)
op1=|o1-p2|
IF (op0<=op1)
z=o0
ELSE
z=o1
ENDIF
|z|<=p1
}


stretchJ           { ; t=2
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fern.par formulaname=stretch_J
  corners=-8/8/-1/11 params=10000/0/-0.08500000000000001/5.024 float=y
  colors=000000<29>00k00m01m<29>0ky0mz1mz<30>zzz<46>2zz0zz0yz<45>02z00z00y\
  <59>002000000
  }



     Suerte!

           Ramiro Perez <[e-mail]>






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) potpourii
Date: 09 Oct 1997 19:42:56 -0500

Just a few comments on a few subjects, mostly because I feel too lazy to
reply to the different threads ;):

1.  Maybe there is a place for integer math in Fractint.  It certainly
has its supporters, as you all can see.  I hereby amend my wish list
post to read as follows:  Instead of "no more integer math," how about
"floating point math as default?"  This would satisfy the
traditionalists, while the rest of us who prefer float = yes get it
automatically!  I know you can edit the SSTOOLS.INI file to get it
automatically, but I said I was lazy, remember?

2. Where do I get DJGPP??????

3.  What's with the quat orbit in the julibrot type?  When I try to run
it from, let's say, cj=-1 to cj=1, I get a sphere! This can't be right
because when I check the regular quat type between those two extremes,
the results certainly are NOT circles!  What's going on here?  Is it my
fault or Fractint's?

4.  Try this: it's a generalized Nuke1:
SuperNuker {;Justin Kolodziej
;mod. of Mr. Newstead's Nuke1
z = 0
c = pixel
d = fn2(pixel):
 z = (fn1(z)+c)/d
}

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Windows because:
1. Solaris doesn't run on PCs :(
2. I can't afford an Ultra SparcStation 3 :( :*( :-(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store?! ;)"




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re:
Date: 09 Oct 1997 22:30:06 -0700

> Very simple!
Thanks kindly, Linda. It works, of course.
I may try to post some formulas soon, but can anyone tell me if there
is some index of .frm files somewhere, so I can check to see if I am
merely reinventing someone else's?

Also, I am considering plunking down $50 at my local bookstore for a
copy of The Science of Fractal Images, which I think I have seen
referred to here a few times. Is this a good book? I am trying to learn
more, more, more of the technical stuff and am looking for lots of math
formulas to play with. Perhaps something has been written since that is
better? Any help wld be appreciated.

                    Peter
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 10 Oct 1997 00:46:47 -0400 (EDT)

Well, I say keep the integer math.  Despite what some people have said,
integer math is, in general, faster than floating point, with a few
exceptions.  On the regular pentium and pentium MMX, floating point
multiplication is faster than integer multiplication.  On everything
else (P-pro, PII, K6, each better than the regular pentium and pentium
MMX), integer multiplication is faster than floating point.  The problem
Fractint has now with integer math is that it's running in 16-bit mode,
so every 32 bit operation requires prefixes which can slow things down.
Just porting fractint to 32 bits and keeping the integer math would
speed it up.  DJGPP and NASM, please...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 10 Oct 1997 08:08:27 GMT

Op  9 Oct 97 om 19:44 schreef [e-mail] over: "Re:
(fractint) IFS Formulas"

> Yes, because since they are inverse to the ifs attractors, sometimes
> you need more than 150 iterations to get a good image..

Ah, in that case I' m going to edit the par file the program
generates. I'm using PARTOBAT for automatically generating the
pictures.

> In fact 8, because more IFS transformations, larger the formula
> definition, and I think that fractint don't support definitions that
> where too large (by the way, can anyone say to me what is the
> limit?)..

So if this limit is higher than you expect, you are gonna to rewrite
the program :-)

> Ok, there is no maxiter nor a color definition because I prefer to
> leave it to the control of the user.. In the case of the t=4; that

Ok. that means I must do the work myself ;-) Oh well, that is the fun
to fractint. Isn't it?

> means the number of transformations, for example the Fern has 4. In

I thought so, but  I was not sure.

> For the colors, I noticed that these fractals needs color maps with
> small gradations, because in most of them the orbit tends to escape
> very fast.. That is why I use a bailout so large (10000!)

I get it. I've read the readme file now (I don't normally do that
:-). And much is clearer now.

Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
 _____________________________________

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From: George Martin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 10 Oct 1997 07:44:16 -0400

Ramiro Perez wrote:

>
In fact 8, because more IFS transformations, larger the formula
definition, and I think that fractint don't support definitions that
where too large (by the way, can anyone say to me what is the limit?)..
<

Right now, a formula's text is limited to 8192 characters (not including
white space and comments), and by the memory available to store the various
functions and pointers to actually run the formula. The amount of memory
used by a formula can be seen in the CTRL-TAB screen (while the image is
drawing, hit TAB, and then CTRL-TAB for lots of information about what is
going on inside fractint at the time).

One of the projects for the next version of fractint is to make more
efficient use of memory in the formula parser, which should result in much
larger formulas being possible.

George Martin

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 10 Oct 1997 07:49:35 -0400 (EDT)


Evin C Robertson wrote:
>
> Well, I say keep the integer math.  Despite what some people have said,
> integer math is, in general, faster than floating point, with a few
> exceptions.  On the regular pentium and pentium MMX, floating point
> multiplication is faster than integer multiplication.  On everything
> else (P-pro, PII, K6, each better than the regular pentium and pentium
> MMX), integer multiplication is faster than floating point.  The problem

[snip]

   The question is, how big a speed difference are we talking about?
because the advantages of moving to floating point code, in terms of
shrinking the code and getting into a compile-anywhere situation, are
considerable... Actually, we can measure this, can't we? Would people
with non-pentium chips of all kinds care to submit some sample times with
float=no and float=yes?


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From: Michael C Taylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) today's fractal fortune
Date: 10 Oct 1997 09:39:55 -0300 (ADT)


No plain fanfold paper could hold that fractal Puff --
He grew so fast no plotting pack could shrink him far enough.
Compiles and simulations grew so quickly tame
And swapped out all their data space when Puff pushed his stack frame.
        (refrain)
Puff, he grew so quickly, while others moved like snails
And mini-Puffs would perch themselves on his gigantic tail.
All the student hackers loved that fractal Puff
But DCS did not like Puff, and finally said, "Enough!"
        (refrain)
Puff used more resources than DCS could spare.
The operator killed Puff's job -- he didn't seem to care.
A gloom fell on the hackers; it seemed to be the end,
But Puff trapped the exception, and grew from naught again!
        (refrain)
Refrain:
        Puff the fractal dragon was written in C,
        And frolicked while processes switched in mainframe memory.
        Puff the fractal dragon was written in C,
        And frolicked while processes switched in mainframe memory.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) potpourii
Date: 10 Oct 1997 07:58:34 -0500

> Where do I get DJGPP??????

Yeah! Where do I get DJGPP? And what hte heck does it stand for???

>3.  What's with the quat orbit in the julibrot type?  When I try to
>run
>it from, let's say, cj=-1 to cj=1, I get a sphere! This can't be right
>because when I check the regular quat type between those two extremes,
>the results certainly are NOT circles!  What's going on here?  Is it
>my
>fault or Fractint's?

Hunh?
>4.  Try this: it's a generalized Nuke1:
>SuperNuker {;Justin Kolodziej
>;mod. of Mr. Newstead's Nuke1
>z = 0
>c = pixel
>d = fn2(pixel):
> z = (fn1(z)+c)/d
>}

Thanks!, I just discovered the fn1 option the other day, It's the sort of
thing I've been looking for so I can write a general form and play with
it.(Remember I'm a beginner (:{()

P.S. My name has no "A" in it. it's Newsted. Am I picky or what?

Thanks again,
Merel L. Newsted Jr. (Nuke)
>Justin Kolodziej
>
>"I only use Windows because:
>1. Solaris doesn't run on PCs :(
>2. I can't afford an Ultra SparcStation 3 :( :*( :-(
>3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local
>software
>store?! ;)"
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: (fractint) Books
Date: 10 Oct 1997 07:58:23 -0500

Peter,
Have you seen Mandelbrot's "The fractal geometry of Nature" ? (or
somethinglike that) I thinks it's out of print, but you might be
supprised what you can find at a used bookstore.

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael C Taylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re:
Date: 10 Oct 1997 10:05:51 -0300 (ADT)

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Peter Jakubowicz wrote:

> copy of The Science of Fractal Images, which I think I have seen
> referred to here a few times. Is this a good book? I am trying to learn
> more, more, more of the technical stuff and am looking for lots of math

The Science of Fractal Images is a "technical coffee table" book. Great
for us mathematical types to leave lying around our houses, so guests can
say, "I cannot belief that little equation generates That!" It is a very
nice book, I picked up a copy and was quite impressed with it.

Depends on what sort of mathematical knowledge you seek, if you want to
begin at the beginning, it isn't the right place. G.A. Edgar's _Measure,
Topology, and Fractal Geometry" or Barnsley's _Fractals Everywhere_. Both
are aimed at the 3-5 year Physics, Math, CS, or Engineering undergrad
student. If you don't fit in that category, Devaney's _Chaos, Fractals,
and Dynamics_ might be a better place to start.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael C Taylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) potpourii
Date: 10 Oct 1997 10:15:07 -0300 (ADT)

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:

> > Where do I get DJGPP??????
>
> Yeah! Where do I get DJGPP? And what hte heck does it stand for???

DJGPP is a port of the GNU C/C++ gcc compiler to DOS.
It was ported by DJ, and you cannot have ++ in a DOS name, hence DJGPP.

DJGPP is freely available from http://www.delorie.com/ for documents and
pointers to the actual files. It is intended primaryly for experienced
(UNIX) programmers, not necessary for the faint of heart.

It is not fractal software! (I'll save your several MBs of downloading...)

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: (fractint) Friday(monday)
Date: 10 Oct 1997 09:02:39 -0500

Ever have one of those days when you correct someone's misspelling of
your last name , AND THEN you misspell your own FIRST name in the
message?!
I'm MERLE not MEREL, and a big dunce too!

signed, and spell checked,
MERLE L. NEWSTED JR. (Nuke)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Hine <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why?
Date: 10 Oct 1997 08:38:30 -0600 (MDT)

Nuke,

Why not?.... ;)

    I suppose everyone has different reasons for being interested in
fractals; perhaps some of us are in it for the artistic qualities they have,
others for the bizarre (and therefor often 'natural') mathematical correlations
that can be found in them, and still others (I'm in this flow) percieve
analogies between fractal concepts and long-held beliefs in subjects like
science and religion.

    Certainly we are all fascinated by fractals, and this fascination urges
us to find applications and relevancies between fractals and our world.  If you
browse through some of the recent issues of _Science_, you can find examples of
applied fractal theory, and even recognize fractal concepts hidden in articles
where the author might not have even heard of fractals!  Another reason some of
us are into these things is that it is a fairly new field, and there is much
room for discovery... it's easier to be on the 'cutting edge' of fractology (?!)
than it is to be on the cutting edge of, say, molecular biology.

Hope I haven't spoken too much for anyone/everyone else; I'd be interested in
reading other folk's answers to Nuke's question.

Spidey

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) XFRACT and making it work
Date: 10 Oct 1997 15:51:23 BST

Recently I posted about having trouble making xfract work. This has now
been fixed. It was necessary to add
-DBIG_ANSI_C to the $(DEFINES) in the makefile
I don't know if this was because the Makefile was broken, or because the uni's
unix was duffed up. Any case, adding that fixed it.
I am runing Solaris, and am using the latest XFRACT from the fractint webpages
(version 3.04?)

Hope this helps at someone other than me,

Hoppy

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 10 Oct 1997 11:05:43 -0400

>   The question is, how big a speed difference are we talking about?
>because the advantages of moving to floating point code, in terms of
>shrinking the code and getting into a compile-anywhere situation, are
>considerable... Actually, we can measure this, can't we? Would people
>with non-pentium chips of all kinds care to submit some sample times with
>float=no and float=yes?

In regard to the float vs. integer discussion, I would like to see the
integer code removed from fractint and have it ported to DJGPP. Although I
don't have any benchmarks, on my old 486-33 there was no significant
difference in speed between float and integer. I think the best arguement
for keeping integer is that many artists rely on integer artifacts.
However, as Tim has said, they can always keep an older version around.
Also, wasn't there an attempt at duplicating these integer artifacts in the
formula parser? Isn't this what floor and ceil are supposed to do? How well
does this work?

Nick
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) dmj-pub.frm
Date: 09 Oct 1997 23:54:43 -0400

Les,

 - Good grief!! How long did it take for you to work that little lot out?

Actually, not that long.  A lot of it is cut-and-paste, else I never would
have managed to write 100 fully-commented formulae. :)  You'll notice the
PAR file is far less commented.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 10 Oct 1997 08:47:05 -0400


It's nice to see some IFS discussion going on. I'd like to let you know of
another IFS 'utility' for fractint that I've been working on. It's a
Windows screensaver that has the ability to create text for a fractint par
file based on its current IFS image. I recently added a 'mutate' ability
that lets the viewer see what happens as the transformation set changes.

If you run on a Windows system and you're interested, take a look at
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/1450 where you can download the saver
and a set of par formlulae for some interesting images it generated.

Because of the coloring scheme I use to translate the saver images to
fractint, you'll find that the minimum number of transforms is 12 :'(

Bill Decker

>Hello
>
>Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
>fractint 19.6, for inverting the ifs attractors defined in the fractint
>ifs files, and rewritting it for fractint formula types and for fractint
>par files. It takes a fractint ifs file, scan it, then if there is an ifs
>definition, and if it isn't 3D ifs and has less than 9 transformations,
>the program writes the formula and its correspondient par file..
>The program is in my web pages, in the gallery section, but if you wish to
>go directly, here is the address:
>http://www.utp.ac.pa/~rperez/ifsinv.html
>By the way, this program is a new release of an old one that I have for
>the same work, but this one if far more simpler and this time the program
>optimizes the formulas, so it runs faster than the old one..
>Any comment will be greatly appreciated..
>
>
>                        Ramiro Perez
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 10 Oct 1997 14:00:54 -0400

Hi Thierry,

>> And I'm working on a long term project with this formula :
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>  frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
>>                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
>>                ; 19 Juillet 1997
>>                z =3D rand:
>>                z =3D fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
>>                |z| <=3D real(p1)
>>                }
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> who works very fine (for me :-) in integer mode, but is completly
>> broken in float mode...

  The following formula works with float=3Dyes:

frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
                ; 19 Juillet 1997
                z =3D srand(z):
                z =3D fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
                |z| <=3D real(p1)
                }

  Cheers,

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix (Jason) Bunke" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Books
Date: 10 Oct 1997 19:10:55 -0700

Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
>
> Peter,
> Have you seen Mandelbrot's "The fractal geometry of Nature" ? (or
> somethinglike that) I thinks it's out of print, but you might be
> supprised what you can find at a used bookstore.
>
> Nuke
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
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> Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"

Yes, it is still available.  www.amazon.com has it for only $28.  I've
ordered from them before, and i would wholeheartedly recommend their
services.  It's always interesting to go back to the source and learn
directly from "Big Poppa" Mandelbrot!

By the way, this is my first posting.  I'm a new graduate student at the
mathematics dept. of the Georgia Institute of Technology, and you guys
have definitely kept my new account very busy!

For a very thorough, rigorous and technical book on the mathematical
theory behind fractal geometry, Kenneth Falconer's book "Fractal
Geometry: Mathematical Foundations and Applications"  is probably the
most complete and best-written book of that sort that I have found so
far.

By the way, I'm looking at possibly concentrating in dynamical systems,
fractals and the like during my studies, which is what led me to Georgia
Tech -- the home of the Center for Dynamical Systems and Nonlinear
Studies and the former stomping grounds of Michael Barnsley, whose book
"Fractals Everywhere" is actually used in a course I may try to take
next quarter.

Happy bookhunting!  Plus, I agree with the comment on used bookstores --
I've found some real gems at those places!

-- Felix Bunke ([e-mail])

(Sorry, I haven't learned yet how to put links in my e-mail -- I haven't
had it for very long!)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 10 Oct 1997 15:09:02 -0400

[NOTE: This is somewhat technical material.  Non-programmers should skip
this message.]

Evin,

 - Well, I say keep the integer math.  Despite what some people have said,
 - integer math is, in general, faster than floating point, with a few
 - exceptions.

OK, to clarify the point: on an Intel Pentium, the FPU multiply of 64x64
(mantissa only, exponents are just added) occurs with one-cycle throughput
rather than 10-cycle throughput for a 32x32 integer multiply.  This is the
most common case where the FPU is faster.  Other cases are square roots (70
vs. a few hundred, depending on your integer algorithm) and trig or log
functions (huge differences).

For adding and subtracting, the FPU is *slower*.  These instructions have
one-cycle throughput on the FPU, but integer instructions on the CPU have
throughput of half a cycle (two are executed in one cycle).  Thus if your
process involves a lot of addition and subtraction, and very little else,
you are unlikely to benefit from moving things into the FPU.  Division is
also about the same speed (39 vs. 41 cycles).  It is the disparity between
the multiplies and the trig/log functions that makes this such a compelling
option, because they play such a large role in fractals.

I had a Pentium Pro machine here up until last week, and I spent quite a
bit of time generating fractals on it.  As far as I could tell,
floating-point performance still outran integer performance by a
considerable margin.  I would dispute the claim that integer multiplies are
again faster until I have seen comparative benchmarks that indicate otherwise.

MMX will probably not help fractals much.  It is true that the MMX multiply
is fast--one cycle to do four 16x16 multiplies--but the catch is, it is
ONLY a 16-bit multiply.  Sixteen bits of precision just doesn't get you
very far in fractals; and while it is possible to use this for extended
precision, it is highly unlikely to be faster than the FPU's 64x64
multiply, especially when you factor in the rest of the work that needs to
be done.

 - On everything else (P-pro, PII, K6, each better than the regular pentium
 - and pentium MMX), integer multiplication is faster than floating point.

Unfortunately Intel hasn't (to my knowledge) published basic cycle counts
for Pentium Pro and Pentium-II instructions.  The last published counts I
have are for Pentiums.  However, the trend from 386 through Pentium is for
FPU speed to increase drastically, and integer multiplies to increase only
moderately.  (13-18 cycles on a 486, 10-11 for Pentium, for integer; 16
cycles on a 486, 1 on a Pentium, for FPU.)  I'd be very surprised if the
PPro and P-II had radically redesigned integer multiplies, given that
overall their performance is not leaps and bounds above Pentiums of the
same clock speed.

Various indications I have received are that AMD's K6 processor does not
*quite* have the FPU performance of their Intel counterparts, but they are
still much faster with FPU stuff than Cyrix processors.  And even on a
Cyrix 6x86, where FPU operations (including multiply) take 4-9 cycles, and
multiplies take 4-10, the FPU routines in FractInt are marginally faster
even for plain Mandelbrot.  Cyrix's 6x86MX processors (the "M2") have the
only slightly better FPU performance than the original 6x86.  (And I also
test in 32-bit protected mode to verify this.)

 - The problem Fractint has now with integer math is that it's running in
 - 16-bit mode, so every 32 bit operation requires prefixes which can slow
 - things down.

Actually, the problem FractInt has is that multiply instructions (IMUL and
MUL) are *not* pairable instructions on the Pentium, and so not only do
they consume 10-11 cycles each, but they *also* prevent other instructions
from running at the same time.  On the PPro and P-II, the assignment of
instructions to available execution pipes is better, preventing one complex
instruction from blocking simple instructions that are not dependent on it,
but MUL and IMUL are still complex instructions, and there is only one
complex instruction pipe.  Thus you are still blocked, waiting for those
three multiplies for Mandelbrot iteration to go through.  Even on a
Pentium, the cycle penalty for executing an instruction with a size prefix
is only one cycle; compared to the 30 it takes to do your multiplies, this
is not enough to account for the discrepancy between integer and FPU math
times.

 - Just porting fractint to 32 bits and keeping the integer math would
 - speed it up.  DJGPP and NASM, please...

Yes, it would speed it up.  But it would also speed up the FPU routines
slightly (which also have to deal with a few integer things, while the FPU
is cranking) and the speed-up on the integer side would still not make up
for the difference.  Would you like to see who can write the fastest 32-bit
protected mode M-set generation routine?  You write integer code, I'll
write FPU code. :)

I think the bigger issue is whether it is *worth* porting all that integer
assembly code to a 32-bit environment.  Me, I don't think it's worth it.
Yes, there are some folks who have images based on artifacts in the integer
code.  I'm not convinced it's worth preserving the artifacting, especially
if it hinders the growth of FractInt in other areas.  If I had to choose
between having synchronous orbits working fast, or integer math support in
a 32-bit environment, guess which one I'm gonna choose?  (Good thing I
don't decide stuff, huh? :)

In an ideal world, FractInt would keep support for the oldest PAR files
known to man. :)  But that isn't always possible.  And there's enough work
porting FractInt to a 32-bit environment just with FPU support, without
needing to move all the optimized integer assembly as well.

IMO.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.emi.net/~dmj/
   [e-mail]  /  my gallery: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2605/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) Conformal formulas
Date: 10 Oct 1997 23:39:03 -0400 (EDT)


After some experimentation I determined that conformal mappings aren't
enough. In fact to get the sort of equant form of typical Mandelbrots and
Julias (esp. the spirals) requires the functions f(x,y) and g(x,y) that
determine the next x and the next y respectively, have a certain
structure. Specifically the partial derivativwe matrix
 _      _
|f_x  f_y|
|g_x  g_y|
 ~      ~

may need to have the form
 _   _
|a  -b|
|b   a|
 ~   ~

(I took apart f(x,y)=x^2-y^2 and g(x,y)=2xy and noted that the resulting
matrix had that form. That is just complex z^2 interpreted as being from
R^2 to R^2 instead of C to C.)

This will always generate orthogonal families too.

I tried coming up with pairs of functions f, g with this pattern; most
tended to come out as some complex function or other. But I came up with
this:

Conform8J {
  c=p1, z=pixel:
  a=sinh(real(z))*cos(imag(z))
  b=cosh(real(z))*sin(imag(z))
  z=a+b*(0,1)+c,
  |z|<=1000
}

Conform8M {
  c=pixel, z=(0,1)*3.141592654/2:
  a=sinh(real(z))*cos(imag(z))
  b=cosh(real(z))*sin(imag(z))
  z=a+b*(0,1)+c,
  |z|<=1000
}

It generates some interesting Julias and Mandelbrots in R^2.

Much weirder is:

Conform7J {
  c=p1, z=pixel:
  a=exp(real(z))*sin(imag(z))
  b=-exp(real(z))*cos(imag(z))
  z=a+b*(0,1)+c,
  real(z)<=1000000
}

Conform7M {
  c=pixel, z=0:
  a=exp(real(z))*sin(imag(z))
  b=-exp(real(z))*cos(imag(z))
  z=a+b*(0,1)+c,
  real(z)<=1000000
}

This behaves strangely and is very slow. Both require float=y, should use
periodicity=no for the latter as well.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 11 Oct 1997 02:08:35 -0400 (EDT)


**Warning**: Again, perhaps too technical for the casual Fractint user

> Unfortunately Intel hasn't (to my knowledge) published basic cycle counts
> for Pentium Pro and Pentium-II instructions.  The last published counts I
> have are for Pentiums.  However, the trend from 386 through Pentium is for
> FPU speed to increase drastically, and integer multiplies to increase only
> moderately.  (13-18 cycles on a 486, 10-11 for Pentium, for integer; 16
> cycles on a 486, 1 on a Pentium, for FPU.)  I'd be very surprised if the
> PPro and P-II had radically redesigned integer multiplies, given that
> overall their performance is not leaps and bounds above Pentiums of the
> same clock speed.

Go to www.x86.org/intel.doc for links to lots of intel documentation.
Great site.
PPro, P-II and K6 are very different from their predecessors as they
rewrite the assembly into RISC code (microinstructions), which they
execute very quickly.

> Actually, the problem FractInt has is that multiply instructions (IMUL and
> MUL) are *not* pairable instructions on the Pentium, and so not only do
> they consume 10-11 cycles each, but they *also* prevent other instructions
> from running at the same time.  On the PPro and P-II, the assignment of

On the PPro, P-II, and K6, I believe an integer multiply takes 1-2
cycles when scheduled properly.

> Various indications I have received are that AMD's K6 processor does not
> *quite* have the FPU performance of their Intel counterparts, but they are
> still much faster with FPU stuff than Cyrix processors.

The K6 doesn't have a floating point pipeline, so if you have mulitple
floating point instructions they can't all be running at the same time.
I've heard that the K6 actually does single floating point instructions
faster than the P-II.

>Would you like to see who can write the fastest 32-bit
>protected mode M-set generation routine?  You write integer code, I'll
>write FPU code. :)

You're on.  I'll be optimizing for my K6.  I may well put some floating
point stuff in there with my integers as the K6 does floating point and
integer math simultaneously quite well.  I guess I'll probably need to
reoptimize for the P-II and P-pro to widen my target of computers a
bit...  If somebody would like to donate a fast P-II to me which I could
optimize on...

Quoting myself from above:
< I may well put some floating point stuff in there with my integers...

Perhaps this would be a good solution for fractint.  Unfortunately, this
doesn't work to well on some machines...

>if it hinders the growth of FractInt in other areas.  If I had to choose
>between having synchronous orbits working fast, or integer math support in
>a 32-bit environment, guess which one I'm gonna choose?  (Good thing I
>don't decide stuff, huh? :)

I go for whatever goes fast.  If integer math can go faster, let it go faster.

I just have to ask: What's all this talk about synchronous orbits with
fractals?  Did an altavista search and came up with nothing related to
the topic.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: (fractint) And now the PAR you've all been WAITING FOR!
Date: 11 Oct 1997 03:32:23 -0400 (EDT)


Sorry this is late.

First the FRM then the PAR...


; Precogna.frm, formulas PrecognaJ, PrecognaM
; Copyright (C) 1997 PGD.
; Distribute it as you see fit, as long as these comments remain attached and
; the two formulas unaltered. Formulas you derive from these by changing
; anything, and images and par files generated with this, are yours to do
; with as you please.

PrecognaJ {
  ; p1 is Julia parameter.
  z=pixel,p=0,c=p1:
  t=sqr(p)*p+sqr(z)+c
  p=z
  z=t,
  lastsqr<=2048
}

PrecognaM (XAXIS) {
  ; p1 is Julia parameter.
  z=0,p=0,c=pixel:
  t=sqr(p)*p+sqr(z)+c
  p=z
  z=t,
  lastsqr<=2048
}



; Precogna.par, image parameters for beautiful images generated with the
; Precogna formulas. These formulas are found in precogna.frm
; which must be in your /frm directory. You should be able to obtain
; precogna.frm from where you obtained this file.
; If you obtained this file from usenet sci.fractals, the .frm was probably
; embedded in the same posting with this .par file.
;
; Copyright (C) 1997 PGD.
; Distribute it as you see fit, as long as these comments remain attached
; and the original entries unaltered. Images and PAR files you derive from
; these by changing anything, zooming in or out, or changing the formula,
; are yours to do with as you please.

Black_Carrot       {
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ center-mag=5.78e-006/-7.005e-006/0.6666636
  params=-0.4/0 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0
  colors=000000<28>w00z00z00<61>zy0zz0zz0zz0<157>zzz
  }

Carrot_Detail      {
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ center-mag=0.500791/0.313147/2.380941
  params=-0.4/0 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0
  colors=000000<28>w00z00z00<61>zy0zz0zz0zz0<157>zzz
  }

Tractor_Beam       { ; An alien starship towing a runabout in a tractor beam.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ center-mag=-0.751174/1.11022e-016/3.205128
  params=-0.4/0.03 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0 logmap=5
  colors=000<15>000000001112<43>TbxUczWdz<12>wxzzzzzzz<174>000
  }

Plasma_Reactor     { ; Plasma storage tanks and reactor nexi.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ center-mag=0.346992/7.77156e-016/2.541735
  params=-0.44/0 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0 logmap=5
  colors=000000<45>xTbzUczWc<4>zjfzmgzni<5>zxwzzzzzz<30>d2zc0zc0z<29>LTzKU\
  zKUzKUz<124>zzz
  }

Pod_Detail         { ; Detail of a plasma storage pod
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ
  center-mag=+0.34994753302034220/-0.06833724926931038/110.5102
  params=-0.44/0 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0 logmap=5
  colors=000000<45>bTxcUzcWz<4>fjzgmzinz<5>wxzzzzzzz<30>z2dz0cz0c<29>zTLzU\
  KzUKzUK<124>zzz
  }

Pod_Detail_2       { ; Detail of a plasma storage pod fuel siphon clamp
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ
  center-mag=+0.34904122331142200/-0.07381572826722271/394.6794
  params=-0.44/0 float=y maxiter=256 inside=0 logmap=5
  colors=000000<45>TbxUczWcz<4>jfzmgzniz<5>xwzzzzzzz<30>2zd0zc0zc<29>TzLUz\
  KUzKUzK<124>zzz
  }

Mandibles          { ; A Precogna Mandelbrot image. Looks like bug jaws.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM center-mag=-0.424664/0/21.5839 float=y
  maxiter=256 inside=0 colors=000A0A<44>x0Ez0Fz0F<110>zzzzzzyyy<93>00A
  }

Whirlpools         { ; Whirlpools around a promontory.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.45579244166987560/+0.03772238872010915/88.4586 float=y
  maxiter=500 inside=0 logmap=21
  colors=00015A<125>hlzhlzilzimzjmz<26>yyzzzzzzyzzx<12>zzezzczzc<78>A0A
  }

Tongue             { ; The bug's tongue
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM center-mag=-0.424664/1.30104e-017/68.30348
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=28
  colors=000zzz<44>z2zz0zy0z<29>20z00z00y<29>00C00A00A<28>901901A00B00<29>\
  x00z00z10<45>zx0zz0zz1<30>zzz
  }

Tongue_Tip         { ; The bug's tongue's tip
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.43731076613586700/+0.00000000000000002/216.1503
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=28
  colors=000zzz<44>2zz0zz0yz<29>02z00z00y<29>00C00A00A<28>0910910A00B0<29>\
  0x00z01z0<45>xz0zz0zz1<30>zzz
  }

Mandelbud          { ; A minibrot tastebud.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=b
  center-mag=-0.43873947536942330/-0.00135218707365365/4323.005
  float=y maxiter=4096 logmap=66
  colors=000000K0A<76>z00<16>zzV<14>zzz<30>2z20z00y0<29>0C00A00A0<31>00A00\
  A10A10A20A20A<41>K0A
  }

Intersection       { ; Strands intersect in a superstring reactor.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.43379926315796940/+0.00000000000000002/1541.604
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=65
  colors=000ezz<76>B1VA0UA0UA0U<46>U0AV0AW1B<42>xJTyJTzKUzLV<29>zxxzzzzzz<\
  46>ezz
  }

Tantalon_Beam      { ; Detail of the reactor core.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognam
  center-mag=-0.43379384907332540/+0.00000000000000002/11335.32
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=106
  colors=000zez<76>1BV0AU0AU0AU<46>0UA0VA1WB<42>JxTJyTKzULzV<29>xzxzzzzzz<\
  46>zez
  }

Precogna_Mandelbrt { ; The M-set of the Precogna formula.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognam center-mag=-9.99201e-016/7.77156e-016/1.449275
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000ezz<76>B1VA0UA0UA0U<46>U0AV0AW1B<42>xJTyJTzKUzLV<29>zxxzzzzzz<\
  46>ezz
  }

Gullet             { ; In the mandibles' grip.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.40822902177024260/+0.00000000000000000/431.678 float=y
  maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=75
  colors=000zmz<60>B1zA0zA0yA0x<44>A02A00B10<45>xk0zm0zm0<94>zzz
  }

Symbiont           { ; A symbiotic crustacean lives in the mandibles.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.40969846075901170/+0.00000000000000000/3174.103
  float=y maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=75
  colors=000zmz<60>z1Bz0Ay0Ax0A<44>20A00A01B<45>0kx0mz0mz<94>zzz
  }

Symbiont_Left      { ; Left of the symbiont.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41006067746974330/+0.00000000000000000/3174.103
  float=y maxiter=5000 inside=0 logmap=75
  colors=000zmz<60>z1Bz0Ay0Ax0A<44>20A00A01B<45>0kx0mz0mz<94>zzz
  }

Spiral_Hook        { ; On the bug's tongue.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41006593651454530/+0.00005261789606087/36908.17
  float=y maxiter=32767 inside=0 logmap=131
  colors=000cmz<60>B1zA0zA0zA0y<44>A0LA0KA0KA0K<29>K0AK0AL1B<60>yyyzzzzzzz\
  zz<45>zzz
  }

Unicorn_Horn       { ; Neat spirals and stuff.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41004671470579420/+0.00006766398343948/271383.6
  float=y maxiter=32767 inside=0 logmap=138
  colors=000mzm<140>B1LA0KB1L<29>xxxzzzzzz<78>A05
  }

Convergence        { ; Many converging lines
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41054918859461490/+0.01354137030978280/431.678 float=y
  maxiter=2000 inside=0 logmap=112
  colors=000zzz<108>dLBcKAcKAbKAbKA<76>00A00A00A00A109<25>901901A00B10<30>\
  zz0
  }

Two_Strands        { ; Two strands of mandelmatter from Convergence.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41088754625650250/+0.01426680086209259/1541.707
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=127
  colors=000zzz<92>znzzmzzmzzlyzkx<27>zLdzKczKcyKb<45>K00K00L10<77>zz0
  }

One_Strand         { ; One of the Two_Strands. IMO the more interesting one. :)
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41035970830395770/+0.01463241786045672/5506.097
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=133
  colors=00000A<97>0BV0BV0BV0CW0CW0CW<53>0Tl0Um1Um2Vm<28>alycmzcmz<62>zz0
  }

Mandible_Edge      { ; A serration on the mandible.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41000324267340650/-0.00103920344720220/9321.416
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=84
  colors=000czz<77>K0UK0UK1U<93>zzzzzzzyy<77>z00
  }

Verteron_Emitter   { ; A strange alien device.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41004129707625650/-0.00106025627565845/54194.28
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=89
  colors=000zcU<77>U0KU0KU1K<93>nnznnzmmz<77>00z
  }

GoldenFluff        { ;
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.41003944897537460/-0.00107111953514188/444215.4
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=107
  colors=000zzm<93>K00K00L10<76>yy0zz0zz0zz1<77>zzm
  }

MandelApocalypse   { ; Mandelbrot Set after the Apocalypse?
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM center-mag=-0.0250391/0.507307/3.436426
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<2>000100100200200<87>c00c00c10c20<75>yy0zz0zz0zz1<77>zzm
  }

Bud-oid            { ; Mangled bud.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM center-mag=-0.171981/0.441695/14.08371 float=y
  maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes colors=000U00<142>00A01A11B<108>mzz
  }

Spiroid            { ; Spiral fusion
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.20368671048513370/+0.39277803757828890/72.59646
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000mzm<108>11B00A00A00A<31>A0AB1BB1BC2CC2C<105>zmz
  }

Twisted_Matter     { ; Twisted Mandelmatter.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=t
  center-mag=-0.15721668519561880/+0.38557609741127420/17827.49
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=107
  colors=000mmz<174>448448448447447447<26>000000100<44>K00
  }

Twisted_Matter_2   { ; A zoom of the twisted matter.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=t
  center-mag=-0.15724514084310800/+0.38552973237442150/849575.2
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=112
  colors=000KK0<13>hsfjvjjvj<157>448448448448447<28>000000100<44>K00
  }

Burning_Brot       { ; Bright purple plasma fire burns a Mandelbrot bud.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM center-mag=-0.206057/0.491205/67.71016 float=y
  maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=19
  colors=000zzU<108>881770770770<29>00A00A10A<109>zmz
  }

Complexity         { ; A complex region where chaos collides with chaos.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=2
  center-mag=-0.20975520050078320/+0.48269548719833070/159.6938
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=22
  colors=00000A<141>z00z00z11<109>zzz
  }

BrambleSpiral      { ; A spiral of thorny protrusions.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.20243811866441390/+0.48865679211317000/3193.876
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=74
  colors=00000A<76>b01c00c00c10<60>yy9zzAzzAzzA<109>zzz
  }

Fracture_Zone      { ; A fault line in Mandelbrot Land.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=t
  center-mag=-0.20952000858461420/+0.47848596925408020/654.4827
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=32
  colors=00000A<141>z00z00z11<109>zzz
  }

Membranes          { ; Complexity: a thin membrane between Brown and Purple.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=t
  center-mag=-0.20855080883051680/+0.47805215359115470/2845.577
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=94
  colors=000z0z<126>AKUAKUAKUAKUBKT<55>UKAUKATJA<21>B11A00B11<29>kxxmzznzz\
  <8>zzz
  }

Membrane_Segment   { ; Part of the Membrane.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM passes=t
  center-mag=-0.20869013129516830/+0.47775869005446980/33088.1 float=y
  maxiter=32767 inside=0 logmap=106
  colors=000z0z<127>AKUAKUBLU<123>zzz
  }

Frost_Fronds       { ; A beautiful, complex, and slow image.
  reset=1930 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaM
  center-mag=-0.20866679844871980/+0.47777408515160420/661762.1
  float=y maxiter=1048576 inside=0 logmap=1599
  colors=000z0z<127>KAUKAULBU<123>zzz
  }

Twistron           { ; A very peculiar Julia set.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ center-mag=0/0/0.6666667 params=-0.427/0.018
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<11>733844944A55A55<88>0Uz0Uz0Uy<147>000
  }

Energon            { ; Another very peculiar Julia set.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ passes=t center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.427/0.008 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<11>33744844955A55A<88>Uz0Uz0Uy0<147>000
  }

Terduron           { ; Another very peculiar Julia set.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ passes=t center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.427/0.002 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<11>733844944A55A55<88>0zU0zU0yU<147>000
  }

Generon            { ; Another very peculiar Julia set.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ passes=t center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.427/0.0005999999999999999 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0
  logmap=yes colors=000<11>33744844955A55A<88>zU0zU0yU0<147>000
  }

Vivid_Explosion    { ; Very vivid.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=PrecognaJ passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.66134e-016/1.103753
  params=-0.45414/0.03511 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<14>40950A50A60A<92>yJ1zK0zK0zL0<28>zb0zc0zc0zc1<108>zzz
  }

Twistor-Drive      { ; This looks very weird. Periodicity checking screws it up
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667 params=-0.4079/0.0026
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes periodicity=0
  colors=000<12>830840940A50A50<91>1xJ1xJ1yJ0zK0zK0zL<28>0zb0zc0zc1zc<60>y\
  zyzzzyyy<45>00A
  }

Pinched_Carrot     { ; Strange.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667 params=-0.40518/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes periodicity=0
  colors=000yzz<11>rwzrvzqvzpuzpuz<91>y2gy2gy1gz0fz0fz0e<28>z0Oz0Nz0Ny0N<6\
  0>101000111<45>zzp
  }

Glowing_Asteroids  { ; Aftermath of a space collision. From a minibrot.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.45255/0.00338 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<12>30840840950A50A<91>xJ1xJ1yJ1zK0zK0zL0<28>zb0zc0zc0zc1<57>z\
  xvzxwzyxyzyzzz<46>A00
  }

Deimos             { ; Amid the asteroids.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t center-mag=0/0/20.83333
  params=-0.45255/0.00338 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<12>30840840950A50A<91>xJ1xJ1yJ1zK0zK0zL0<28>zb0zc0zc0zc1<57>z\
  xvzxwzyxyzyzzz<46>A00
  }

Phobos             { ; Amid the asteroids, slight param tweak.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-9.57567e-016/6.10623e-016/10.41667
  params=-0.446477/0.002736 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=28
  colors=000<12>30840840950A50A<94>z0Kz1Kz2J<28>za1zc0zc0<58>zxvzxwzyxyzyz\
  zz<46>A00
  }

Spiral_Night       { ; A hole in the space time continuum.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.40746/0.00143 float=y maxiter=16384 inside=0 logmap=20
  periodicity=0
  colors=000005<11>30840940950A50A<78>z0Kz1Kz2J<28>za1zc0zc1<45>zyxzzzzyy<\
  45>IAAH88H88<29>000
  }

Spiral_Spiral_S    { ; Very interesting and unusual.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.411579/0.013829 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<10>702703803804904<96>K0zK1zJ2z<28>1az0cz0cz<61>yyzzzzyyy<45>\
  00A
  }

Intricacy          { ; Very complex patterns of spirals!
                     ; Very slow...
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.4115331/0.0138375 float=y maxiter=32767 inside=0
  logmap=yes periodicity=0
  colors=000<10>702703803804904<96>K0zK1zJ2z<28>1az0cz0cz<61>yyzzzzyyy<45>\
  00A
  }

Triplicacy         { ; Three-fold forms
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.139238/0.40686 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<8>026026027037038048<97>0zK1zK2zJ<28>az1cz0cz0<61>yzyzzzyyy<4\
  5>0A0
  }

Alien_Starship     { ; Very odd.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667 params=-0.438768/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<16>A00B10B10C20C31<88>xxJyyJzzKzzL<29>zzxzzzyyz<45>C2LA0KA0K<\
  61>A00
  }

Starship_Mark_II   { ; A revised model.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667 params=-0.436084/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<16>00A01B01B02C13C<88>JxxJyyKzzLzz<29>xzzzzzzyy<45>L2CK0AK0A<\
  61>00A
  }

Mark_II_Reactor    { ; The Mark II craft has a powerful reactor core.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-9.57567e-016/6.10623e-016/7.659316 params=-0.436084/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<16>00A01B01B02C13C<88>JxxJyyKzzLzz<29>xzzzzzzyy<45>L2CK0AK0A<\
  61>00A
  }

Fluxion_Chamber    { ; In the Mark II's reactor core.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-9.81853e-016/6.17562e-016/44.53091 params=-0.436084/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=92
  colors=000<16>00A10B10B20C31C<88>xJxyJyzKzzLz<29>zxzzzzzyy<45>LC2KA0KA0<\
  61>0A0
  }

Starship_Mark_III  { ; Another revised model.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/5.55112e-016/1.041667 params=-0.433787/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<16>0A01B01B02C03C1<87>wwJxxJyyJzzKzzL<29>zzxzzzzyy<43>N5EM3DL\
  2CK0AK0A<61>00A
  }

Mark_III_Reactor   { ; Different...
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-9.71445e-016/6.10623e-016/10.41667 params=-0.433787/0
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000<16>0A01B01B02C03C1<87>wwJxxJyyJzzKzzL<29>zzxzzzzyy<43>N5EM3DL\
  2CK0AK0A<61>00A
  }

Luminon_Chamber    { ; The center of the Mark III reactor uses fractal geometry
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-0.00000000000000098/+0.00000000000000062/60.56203
  params=-0.433787/0 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=103
  colors=000<16>A00B01B01C02C13<87>wJwxJxyJyzKzzLz<29>zxzzzzyyz<43>5EN3DM2\
  CL0AK0AK<61>0A0
  }

Crystal_Lumps      { ; A blue corona surrounds crystals that formed in the core
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=-1.00614e-015/6.38378e-016/32.96415
  params=-0.4339/0 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=69
  colors=000<15>A00A00B11B22<75>yyyzzzyyy<29>22C00A00B<37>JJlKKmKMn<6>Kcz<\
  78>zzz
  }

Crystal_Resonance  { ; One crystal in emerald green, looks like a Tholian ship.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-0.01954057947918072/+0.00000000000000064/135.099
  params=-0.4339/0 float=y maxiter=16384 inside=0 logmap=105
  colors=000<15>A0AA0AB1BB2B<75>yyyzzzyyy<29>2C20A00B0<37>JlJKmKKnM<5>Kx`K\
  zcKzc<77>zzz
  }

Golden_Spiral      { ; A beautiful delicate spiral of gold wrapped in mystery.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj
  center-mag=+0.01123836285323686/-0.00283608552263435/659.283
  params=-0.43382/0 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=299
  periodicity=0
  colors=0000A0<110>000001012<44>9TxAUzATw<14>A0A<46>xx1zz0zz2<29>zzz
  }

Deep_Core          { ; Deep in the core of the Darkness is the Light
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.136275/0.397373 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  colors=000A00<44>18909A09A09B09B<91>8Sw9Tx9Su<17>124000110<57>vv0xx1ww1<\
  30>A00
  }

Complex_Stuff      { ;
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.411435/0.013704 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  periodicity=0
  colors=000A00<44>18909A09A09B09B<91>8Sw9Tx9Su<17>124000110<57>vv0xx1ww1<\
  30>A00
  }

Warm_Cool_Spirals  { ; Very odd
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.410899/0.014262 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  periodicity=0
  colors=000zzz<29>z33z00z00<108>L09L09K0AJ0A<13>201000000<59>0av0bw1cx2cx\
  <30>zzz
  }

Swirl_Tunnels      { ; Strange
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/6.10623e-016/1.041667
  params=-0.157247/0.385551 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=yes
  periodicity=0
  colors=000zzz<29>33z00z00z<108>90L90LA0KA0J<13>102000000<59>v0aw0bx1cx2c\
  <30>zzz
  }

Hypertronic_Pulse  { ; This formula produces a lot of funky alien power cores..
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=t
  center-mag=-9.57567e-016/6.10623e-016/16.27604
  params=-0.157247/0.385551 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=104
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<14>90IA0KA0K<140>TlyTlyUmzVmz<15>xynzzmzkp<2>z0z<72>A00
  }

Galaxies           { ; Galaxies in the night
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.210613/0.391426 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<14>90IA0KA0K<140>TlyTlyUmzVmz<15>xynzzmzkp<2>z0z<72>A00
  }

Tango              { ; Spiraling things do an intimate tango.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj
  center-mag=-6.66134e-016/4.44089e-016/0.9861933
  params=-0.192851/0.394992 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<14>90IA0KA0K<140>TlyTlyUmzVmz<15>xynzzmzkp<2>z0z<72>A00
  }

Chitoid            { ; This complex chitinous creature inhabits Alpha Centauri.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/0.0677411/1.152095
  params=-0.189172/0.390449 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<14>90IA0KA0K<140>TlyTlyUmzVmz<15>xynzzmzkp<2>z0z<72>A00
  }

Chitoid_Zoom       { ; This complex chitinous creature inhabits Alpha Centauri.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-1.05471e-015/0.0278755/4.114625
  params=-0.189172/0.390449 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  periodicity=0
  colors=000<14>90IA0KA0K<140>TlyTlyUmzVmz<15>xynzzmzkp<2>z0z<72>A00
  }

Green_Goo          { ; Strange stuff
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=-8.88178e-016/0.0677411/1.152095
  params=-0.157234/0.385567 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000zyy<11>zrjzrizqhzpfzpfzpf<139>EY1EY1DX0DW0<15>12C00D00D<75>000
  }

Purple_Haze        { ; Strange stuff
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=7.77156e-016/0.0083288/0.8895923 params=0.209132/0.011115
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<11>rjzrizqhzpfzpfzpfz<139>Y1EY1EX0DW0D<15>2C10D00D0<75>000
  }

Fuzzy_Blue         { ; Strange stuff
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj passes=2
  center-mag=7.77156e-016/0.0083288/0.8895923 params=0.209735/0.010512
  float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<13>hhzffzffz<139>Z2FZ2FY1EX1E<29>21B00A00A<62>000
  }

Frondy_Feathers    { ; Attractive fluffy spirally stuff
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=7.77156e-016/0.0083288/0.8895923
  params=0.210294/0.009349 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<13>hhzffzffz<139>Z2FZ2FY1EX1E<29>21B00A00A<62>000
  }

Blue_Green_Algae   { ; Interesting critters in pond water.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=7.77156e-016/0.0083288/0.8895923
  params=-0.203006/0.488152 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<11>jykiyihyhfzffzf<140>2FZ1EY1EY1EX1DW<27>11B00A00A00A<61>\
  000
  }

Pastel_Spirals     { ;
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj center-mag=-1.11022e-015/6.66134e-016/1.131455
  params=-0.202296/0.488633 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<11>yykyyiyyhzzfzzf<123>L7`L7`K6_K6Z<13>F2ZE1YE1YE1XD1W<12>\
  71M71M82N<77>zzz
  }

Pastel_Double      { ; Double spiral
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=precogna.frm
  formulaname=precognaj
  center-mag=-1.16573e-015/-0.00369026/17.67899/1/97.5
  params=-0.202296/0.488633 float=y maxiter=4096 inside=0 logmap=3
  colors=000yyz<11>yykyyiyyhzzfzzf<123>L7`L7`K6_K6Z<13>F2ZE1YE1YE1XD1W<12>\
  71M71M82N<77>zzz
  }



--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 11 Oct 1997 09:08:47 -0500

Hey Sylvie,
I tried to run "rand_generic" and got an "undefined function" error
indicating that "3D" was unefined. What did I do wrong?


"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:00:54 -0400 Sylvie Gallet
<[e-mail]> writes:

>>>  frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
>>>                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
>>>                ; 19 Juillet 1997
>>>                z =3D rand:
>>>                z =3D fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
>>>                |z| <=3D real(p1)
>>>                }

>  The following formula works with float=3Dyes:
>
>frm:rand_generic {  ; ****   PARAMETER 1 MUST BE > 0   ****
>                ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112ompuserve.com
>                ; 19 Juillet 1997
>                z =3D srand(z):
>                z =3D fn1(z) + fn2(pixel);
>                |z| <=3D real(p1)
>                }
>
>  Cheers,
>
>        - Sylvie

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Long awaited New Nuke Fractal (absolutely Free!)
Date: 11 Oct 1997 09:08:15 -0500

Here is another (:|) Free M.L. Newsted Jr. Fractal!
Any comments?

SnakeHead (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0
    c = pixel:

    z = sqrt(z) / sqrt(c) + c
    |z| < 4
    }

I like to ask another set of simple questions:
Am I right in assuming the following about the operation of "snakehead":
z= 0 sets the value of z to (0,0) or (0 + 0i)
then c = equals pixel sets the value of c to the x,y coordinate of the
upper left corner of my screen where x and y form the  values for the
real and imaginary parts of c (516,359) for a setting of 1024X768.
Then, It takes the square root of z (which would be 0) divides by the
square root of c (which gives it zero) and then adds c to it which then
makes z = (516, 359)

Now, then does fractint start over at the top with z=(516,359) and
c=(515,359) or am I totally off base?
And if that is right, why do I not get a "divide by zero" error? Or is
that allowed in Fractint?
I've read the first half of the frm.tut that came with fractint and I
think I'm on the right track, but any help would be appreciated.


I know it's not very chaotic (deep zooming is uneventful) but I though it
had a rather interesting shape.
Happy Fractaling,

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: A M Kelley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 11 Oct 1997 10:14:57 -0400 (EDT)

Nuke...go through that frm you got from Sylvie and take out all the 3D's,
which are artifacts of the Juno mail reader and aren't supposed to be
there. Leave the equal signs. --Alice



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) And now the PAR you've all been WAITING FOR!
Date: 11 Oct 1997 10:07:54 -0500

Hey Paul!
I tried your frm and par files. Really cool! Some were really slow too.

PrecognaM (XAXIS) {
  ; p1 is Julia parameter.
  z=0,p=0,c=pixel:
  t=sqr(p)*p+sqr(z)+c
  p=z
  z=t,
  lastsqr<=2048
}

I have a similar .frm

FatHeart (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = pixel / (pixel-1)
    c = pixel:

    z = z*z + c
    |z| < 4
    }
Which seems to have a more detailed result.
And could you explain lastsqr<=2048? Is that some sort of bailout?
AAANNNDD, where did you get the gold/purpley .map?
Did you write it? Or did you just keep cycling the colors with <enter>
until you found something you liked and saved it as a .map?
I have thought about trying to write a custom .map but it seem so
tedious!


"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 11 Oct 1997 12:43:16 -0400 (EDT)

   Clearly we can sit here for a long, long time arguing about what
compination if int and FPU instructions is fastest on what chip. But
unless someone is prepared to reoptimize fractint for every new processor
released, it hardly matters. The question is: is there ever a situation
where int math is MUCH faster? if not, the portability and generic-ness
of floating-point math gives it an awfully big overall advantage: we can
take the code, stick it into optimizing compiler X on system Y, compile,
and have a reasonable approximation of the fastest we can get it on the
system. And if someone wants to rewrite that for a specific machine,
they're welcome to, but no one HAS to in order to be able to run fractint
on that machine.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) And now the PAR you've all been WAITING FOR!
Date: 11 Oct 1997 18:04:51 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Hey Paul!
>I tried your frm and par files. Really cool! Some were really slow too.

Heh. the best ones usually are. :-)

>I have a similar .frm
>
>FatHeart (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
>    z = pixel / (pixel-1)
>    c = pixel:
>
>    z = z*z + c
>    |z| < 4
>    }
>Which seems to have a more detailed result.

Funky...

>And could you explain lastsqr<=2048? Is that some sort of bailout?

yup.

>AAANNNDD, where did you get the gold/purpley .map?
>Did you write it? Or did you just keep cycling the colors with <enter>
>until you found something you liked and saved it as a .map?

I wrote it... :)

>I have thought about trying to write a custom .map but it seem so
>tedious!

hmm. You'll get the hang of it...

>

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Subject is irrelevant - you will be assimilated!
Date: 12 Oct 1997 09:21:30 -0400


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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Talk about new ways to make friends :)

When I first suscribed to this mailing list, I never expected so much =
mail! I was wondering: is there was a specific mailing list for =
developpers?

Three little questions...
    I'm using Fractint 19.6 in a dos box (4dos, actually :) thru Windows =
95... When I open a dos box, I find out I have 617k of conventionnal =
memory left (not bad I think...). So here is my terrible question: why =
can't I shell to Dos from Fractint? Wherever I am, (menu or image...), I =
hit 'D' but I end up calculating the current image...

    Secondly: fractint makedoc[=3Dfilename]... I've tested with =
filename=3Dcon, and as expected, the doc scroll quickly on my display... =
Shouldn't a 'more' pipe give me screen by screen? Actually, I am using =
List 9.1m (Vernon Buerg) with the '/s' option, which should do exactly =
the same thing...

    Lastly: what's the deal with "True Color" modes??? I've got a normal =
SVGA card... (Cirrus 5434 if you insist, with 1 little meg...)

Any clarifications would be greatly appreciated! (btw, I know I can just =
as well (even preferably) open a new Dos box instead of shelling from =
Fractint... but why isn't it working?

My 0.02$ about ints/floats/32bit... although it pretty much has been =
said allready: while there is no significant advantage to support ints =
any longer, it might become important again in the future... so simply =
backup that code for now. 32 bit? Is that really a question?

That it for now...

CIAO!

'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Subject is irrelevant - you will be assimilated!
Date: 12 Oct 1997 23:17:13 -0400 (EDT)

>Talk about new ways to make friends :)
>
>When I first suscribed to this mailing list, I never expected so much =
>mail! I was wondering: is there was a specific mailing list for =
>developpers?

Dunno. Why do you end every line with "="?

>Three little questions...
>    I'm using Fractint 19.6 in a dos box (4dos, actually :) thru Windows =
>95... When I open a dos box, I find out I have 617k of conventionnal =
>memory left (not bad I think...). So here is my terrible question: why =
>can't I shell to Dos from Fractint? Wherever I am, (menu or image...), I =
>hit 'D' but I end up calculating the current image...

It does this to me too in Win 95 on my 486dx2 50 with 8 megs ram. It
doesn't on my *new P166 with 32 megs RAM ;) ;) ;)*... so it has something
to do with ram/speed.


[Smallish binary snipped]

I think it's poor netiquette(?) to post binaries here... PAR files and
formulas are welcome though.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Subject is irrelevant - you will be assimilated!
Date: 12 Oct 1997 23:00:37 -0500


--------------27BC8E52AEB4842B4E4212CB
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> I think it's poor netiquette(?) to post binaries here... PAR files and
> formulas are welcome though.

Probably, especially when some users (yours truly, to be exact) can't even open
the darn thing... Netscape can't find a plugin that supports this file. What do I
do, and is it even worth opening?

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation (I think)
:( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software store?!
;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]

--------------27BC8E52AEB4842B4E4212CB
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<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I think it's poor netiquette(?) to post binaries
here... PAR files and
<BR>formulas are welcome though.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably, especially when some users (yours truly, to be exact) can't even
open the darn thing... Netscape can't find a plugin that supports this
file. What do I do, and is it even worth opening?

<P>Justin K.

<P>"I only use Windows because:
<BR>1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
<BR>2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
<BR>3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local
software store?! ;)"
<BR>-Me

<P> Justin Kolodziej is <A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></HTML>

--------------27BC8E52AEB4842B4E4212CB--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 12 Oct 1997 23:36:32 -0500


--------------65D4AAA3C6E030479BD0A853
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In the Integer v. Float thread, the suggestion was made to compile
Fractint in the future using DJGPP.  This would produce a 32-bit DOS
application AND have the advantage of being easily portable to other
systems, assuming I remember the discussion correctly.

My response is:  Sure, go ahead with it for now.  But for a future
release (Fractint 50 or thereabouts ;) )  why not rewrite the whole
program in Java?  This would make the program universally useable (even
on Macintosh(probably)).

Now before everyone goes complaining about how Java only works in a
browser, Let me set the record straight about Java:  Java CAN be used to
create normal stand-alone applications.  Doing this is explained in the
docs you get when you download the Java Development Kit from Sun (YES,
JAVA IS FREE! 8) You only have to pay if you want a development
environment.)  Look through the tutorial thaat is available, they
explain it to you.

Java even has arbitrary precision types built in (again, look through
the docs -- this time under the predefined classes descriptions) which
is seriously kewl.

There may only be a few problems with Java applications:
1. Speed.  Java is probably SLOW due to it still being an interpreted
language.  Then again, there is the JIT (Just-in-Time) compiler, but I
don't know if it has any relevancy to applications.

2.  I don't know if plotting points to the screen works the same way in
an applet as in an application.  I can't really find out either, because
all the Java Mandelbrot programs I've seen are applets, not
applications.  If not, you could always use a native class (a reference
to some C++ code or any other programming language code) to do it.

Anyway, I should probably quit now, as it's getting late, and I have
class at 8:00 tomorrow.  I'm sure you guys will be able to figure it all
out by the 50th release ;).

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store?! ;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is  [e-mail]


--------------65D4AAA3C6E030479BD0A853
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
In the Integer v. Float thread, the suggestion was made to compile Fractint
in the future using DJGPP.  This would produce a 32-bit DOS application
AND have the advantage of being easily portable to other systems, assuming
I remember the discussion correctly.

<P>My response is:  Sure, go ahead with it for now.  But for
a future release (Fractint 50 or thereabouts ;) )  why not rewrite
the whole program in Java?  This would make the program universally
useable (even on Macintosh(probably)).

<P>Now before everyone goes complaining about how Java only works in a
browser, Let me set the record straight about Java:  Java CAN be used
to create normal stand-alone applications.  Doing this is explained
in the docs you get when you download the Java Development Kit from Sun
(YES, JAVA IS FREE! 8) You only have to pay if you want a development environment.)
Look through the tutorial thaat is available, they explain it to you.

<P>Java even has arbitrary precision types built in (again, look through
the docs -- this time under the predefined classes descriptions) which
is seriously kewl.

<P>There may only be a few problems with Java applications:
<BR>1. Speed.  Java is probably SLOW due to it still being an interpreted
language.  Then again, there is the JIT (Just-in-Time) compiler, but
I don't know if it has any relevancy to applications.

<P>2.  I don't know if plotting points to the screen works the same
way in an applet as in an application.  I can't really find out either,
because all the Java Mandelbrot programs I've seen are applets, not applications.
If not, you could always use a native class (a reference to some C++ code
or any other programming language code) to do it.

<P>Anyway, I should probably quit now, as it's getting late, and I have
class at 8:00 tomorrow.  I'm sure you guys will be able to figure
it all out by the 50th release ;).

<P>Justin K.

<P>"I only use Windows because:
<BR>1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
<BR>2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
<BR>3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local
software store?! ;)"
<BR>-Me

<P> Justin Kolodziej is  <A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>
<BR> </HTML>

--------------65D4AAA3C6E030479BD0A853--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)

>My response is:  Sure, go ahead with it for now.  But for a future
>release (Fractint 50 or thereabouts ;) )  why not rewrite the whole
>program in Java?  This would make the program universally useable (even
>on Macintosh(probably)).

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Do a web search and there are
ten trillion fractal applets. And they are all slow, balky, GPF'y, buggy,
and tend to have few features.

>Now before everyone goes complaining about how Java only works in a
>browser, Let me set the record straight about Java:  Java CAN be used to
>create normal stand-alone applications.  Doing this is explained in the
>docs you get when you download the Java Development Kit from Sun (YES,
>JAVA IS FREE! 8) You only have to pay if you want a development
>environment.)  Look through the tutorial thaat is available, they
>explain it to you.

Development kit...? free? got a URL? Maybe there is a way to make applets
that *work*, then I can make some for my web site. :-)

>Java even has arbitrary precision types built in (again, look through
>the docs -- this time under the predefined classes descriptions) which
>is seriously kewl.

Special pentium optimized assembly routines for special cases, like
complex square, cube, log, cosine?


Also, what is Java exactly? Sounds like a C++-type OOP language... how
does it work precisely? you hear hype about it but very little real info.

BTW I got two copies of this fused together into one message...anyone else
get this?


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Subject is irrelevant - you will be assimilated!
Date: 13 Oct 1997 07:31:54 -0400


**
<<<<I think it's poor netiquette(?) to post binaries here... PAR files and
formulas are welcome though.>>
Probably, especially when some users (yours truly, to be exact) can't even
open the darn thing... Netscape can't find a plugin that supports this file.
What do I do, and is it even worth opening? >>
**

I don't know if this has to do with my mail/newsreader (Outlook Express) but
I didn't get any file attached to the original message...  So I looked under
properties and found the original source of the message, and sure enough
there was a bunch of gibberish application/ms-tnef.  I went and looked it up
with AltaVista, and got this:

(from http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/97.01/msg00349.html)
This MS-TNEF attachment is created by Microsoft Exchange, the e-mail
program which comes with Windows 95.  It contains formatting information
only and no content so you can safely ignore this attachment in mail you
receive.

So I know why OE didn't pick it up... I hope my messages don't do that !

>>BKNambo
--
([e-mail])


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 07:49:17 -0400

-----Original Message-----


>>My response is:  Sure, go ahead with it for now.  But for a future
>>release (Fractint 50 or thereabouts ;) )  why not rewrite the whole
>>program in Java?  This would make the program universally useable (even
>>on Macintosh(probably)).

I don't think I would recommend the Java version of Fractint, especially
since uh,.. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, Java didn't
enjoy the writing of files... and with our dependence on PAR's and FRM's,
this could be a problem. But I don't know if there is or isn't a way to do
that though; my tutorial's broad, sweeping statements said Java's security
wouldn't allow it, but someone less by-the-book might. ;)

>>Now before everyone goes complaining about how Java only works in a
>>browser, Let me set the record straight about Java:  Java CAN be used to
>>create normal stand-alone applications.  Doing this is explained in the
>>docs you get when you download the Java Development Kit from Sun (YES,
>>JAVA IS FREE! 8) You only have to pay if you want a development
>>environment.)  Look through the tutorial thaat is available, they
>>explain it to you.

The Java docs were confusing to me; when you say "stand-alone applications"
do you mean like a self-contained program, that doesn't need the java
runtime? (or whatever that word is...)

>Development kit...? free? got a URL? Maybe there is a way to make applets
>that *work*, then I can make some for my web site. :-)


Java's home page is http://java.sun.com/
or http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.1/index.html
for the download of the JDK..

>Also, what is Java exactly? Sounds like a C++-type OOP language... how
>does it work precisely? you hear hype about it but very little real info.

Java is a programming language, which, which is not supported by any
computer.  The reasoning behind this (kinda fuzzy, yes) is that since it's
not native to any computer, they can get any computer to run it, via an
emulator called the Java "Virtual Machine."  This is a similar concept to a
language I'm trying to learn (Inform) except Java is much more
graphic-oriented by virtue of being much younger.  Java makes two kinds of
programs: applets, which are designed to be used with HTML and web browsers;
and applications, which run from a Java interpreter compatible with your
system.

>BTW I got two copies of this fused together into one message...anyone else
>get this?


No, but I got -your- message dated about an hour before the original...

>>BKNambo "this message written from the bottom up ..."
--
([e-mail]) --this sig under reconstruction b/c of relocation of
URL--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nigel Long <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) old user, new problem
Date: 13 Oct 1997 12:50:13 PDT

Hello to you all,

I am a newbie on this discussion group so please forgive any breaches of
netiquette or appropriateness.

I have been using Fractint since v8, on a succession of PCs. All went well until the
latest 'upgrade', when I lost my trusty Trident graphics card and acquired a
Diamond Stealth 2000 Pro . Now I cannot seem to find a decent mode to run Fractint
in! The VESA selections in Fractint.cfg do not work, and the Truecolor modes
produce nothing but a shade of dark blue. I can run using the b/w, and ultra.low res
modes - but I -really- like using 800x600 and 1024x768 modes.

Is there anybody out there in the fractal multiverse who has succeeded in
persuading Fractint 19.6 to do anything useful on this kind of hardware?

Yours, suffering withdrawal symptoms already,

Nigel Long
[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 07:56:29 -0400

-----Original Message-----



>Java is a programming language, which, which is not supported by any
>computer.

Oops, grammar check!  I edited that sentence & forgot to reread it.  remove
", which,"


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 09:11:56 -0500



Brock Kevin Nambo wrote:

> <my original text snipped>
>
> I don't think I would recommend the Java version of Fractint, especially
> since uh,.. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, Java didn't
> enjoy the writing of files... and with our dependence on PAR's and FRM's,
> this could be a problem. But I don't know if there is or isn't a way to do
> that though; my tutorial's broad, sweeping statements said Java's security
> wouldn't allow it, but someone less by-the-book might. ;)
>

Oh yeah... forgot about that.  In that case, I'd say contact Sun and say that
because Java doesn't save and load anything, you're not going to use it and that
if they really want for Java to become the development platform of choice,
they'll have to include stuff like that.  Just imagine... a word processor where
you can't save! YUCK!  (That was probably off topic)  Anyway, you could probably
write native code to support that... wouldn't make Sun happy though, with there
"100% Pure Java" initiative and all.<more original snipped>

>
>
> The Java docs were confusing to me; when you say "stand-alone applications"
> do you mean like a self-contained program, that doesn't need the java
> runtime? (or whatever that word is...)
>

Sorry, should have clarified that.  YES, you would need the java runtime to run
FractJava(!).  You could put it in a .BAT file, though, with the following
command:java FractJava
or whatever you decide to call the main "class" of the program.
<extraneous stuff snipped>

> >BTW I got two copies of this fused together into one message...anyone else
> >get this?

Possibly because I included a link to my E-mail and Netscape gave me this
message that "some recipients can't handle HTML" or something like that.  Then
it gave me an option to send as both text and HTML, so I chose that.  You
probably received both formats.

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation (I
think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software store?!
;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? (Paul's response)
Date: 13 Oct 1997 09:27:52 -0500

> < my original comments snipped>
> Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Do a web search and there are
> ten trillion fractal applets. And they are all slow, balky, GPF'y, buggy,
> and tend to have few features.
>

I meant an application that doesn't require a Web browser.  I did a search for
that and found a grand total of zero before I lost my patience.  Besides, the ones
I tested didn't have any GFPs, and I actually found ONE with decent speed!

>
> >Java even has arbitrary precision types built in (again, look through
> >the docs -- this time under the predefined classes descriptions) which
> >is seriously kewl.
>
> Special pentium optimized assembly routines for special cases, like
> complex square, cube, log, cosine?

Probably not, but who knows?  I literally discovered all this yesterday (which
probably means I shouldn't tout Java TOO much... ;)  )  AND I only became
interested because I read about it in one of SunSoft's hundred books about Java
and how "revolutionary" it is.  Of course, the same book extols the virtues of the
NC (Network Computer), so I don't know how whether I should trust it as far as I
can throw it.(If that wasn't off topic, I don't know what is... except for list
administration issues :] )

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation (I
think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software store?!
;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) old user, new problem
Date: 13 Oct 1997 09:43:18 -0500



Nigel Long wrote:

> Hello to you all,
>
> I am a newbie on this discussion group so please forgive any breaches of
> netiquette or appropriateness.
>
> I have been using Fractint since v8, on a succession of PCs. All went well until the
> latest 'upgrade', when I lost my trusty Trident graphics card and acquired a
> Diamond Stealth 2000 Pro . Now I cannot seem to find a decent mode to run Fractint
> in! The VESA selections in Fractint.cfg do not work, and the Truecolor modes
> produce nothing but a shade of dark blue. I can run using the b/w, and ultra.low res
> modes - but I -really- like using 800x600 and 1024x768 modes.
>
> Is there anybody out there in the fractal multiverse who has succeeded in
> persuading Fractint 19.6 to do anything useful on this kind of hardware?

This is very strange.  I have a Stealth 3D 2000 Pro (which, I take it, is the same as a
Stealth 2000 Pro) and it works perfectly with Fractint.  I can even get the 1600X1200
Stealth V mode to work.BTW, you're SUPPOSED to get dark blue in the truecolor modes, at
least for this release.  The programmers haven't fully implemented it yet, so you only
get the first 256 colors out of the full color range. There was a way to test the
truecolor mode, but  I forgot what to set debug= to to get it.
Anyway, I have to go to class now.  Sorry I can't help you much.

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation (I
think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software store?!
;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Edward Avis <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) RE: Fractint and Java
Date: 13 Oct 1997 15:57:58 +0100

Two points:

  - Just because there are dozens of lousy slow buggy etc. fractal
generators in Java about on the Web, it doesn't mean they have to be
that bad.
  There are hundreds of really bad fractal programs for DOS, but that
doesn't stop Fractint being great.

  - AFAIK if you install the Java Development Kit (JDK) from Sun, you
can save files from Java apps.

--
Ed Avis

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thore Berntsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: Fractint and Java
Date: 13 Oct 1997 17:34:01 +0200

To those of You who are discussing Java :

There is a very nice Fractint utillity called Filmer written in Java by
David Mansfield at :

 http://ariel.cobite.com/~julian/filmer/

 You will even find the source of the program at thos site!



Thore Berntsen
[e-mail]
>----------
>From:     Edward Avis[SMTP:[e-mail]]
>Sent:     13. oktober 1997 16:57
>To:     '[e-mail]'
>Subject:     (fractint) RE: Fractint and Java
>
>Two points:
>
>  - Just because there are dozens of lousy slow buggy etc. fractal
>generators in Java about on the Web, it doesn't mean they have to be
>that bad.
>  There are hundreds of really bad fractal programs for DOS, but that
>doesn't stop Fractint being great.
>
>  - AFAIK if you install the Java Development Kit (JDK) from Sun, you
>can save files from Java apps.
>
>--
>Ed Avis
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
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>Administrator:  [e-mail]
>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) old user, new problem
Date: 13 Oct 1997 12:16:01 -0400


  Justin Kolodziej wrote:

>> The programmers haven't fully implemented it yet, so you only get the
>> first 256 colors out of the full color range. There was a way to test
>> the truecolor mode, but  I forgot what to set debug=3D to to get it.

  I think it's debug=3D500, then you must use type=3Dtest.

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) textsafe=???
Date: 13 Oct 1997 12:17:46 -0500

I've tried to use the TEXTSAFE=SAVE parameter because when I switch away
from Fractint in WIndows to do something else, and then try to switch
back, the whole image is trashed!  Unfortunately, when I try to do this
using the "g" command, Fractint gives me the funny error noise and says,
"Oops, I couldn't understand the argument textsafe=save."  This seems
odd because other people have posted messages saying that they use it.
Should I be using this as a command-line parameter, or in a config file,
or what?  Or is my version of Fractint just busted?

Justin K.

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store?! ;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is  [e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) textsafe=???
Date: 13 Oct 1997 12:32:56 -0500



Justin A. Kolodziej wrote:

> I've tried to use the TEXTSAFE=SAVE parameter because when I switch away
> from Fractint in WIndows to do something else, and then try to switch
> back, the whole image is trashed!  Unfortunately, when I try to do this
> using the "g" command, Fractint gives me the funny error noise and says,
> "Oops, I couldn't understand the argument textsafe=save."  This seems
> odd because other people have posted messages saying that they use it.
> Should I be using this as a command-line parameter, or in a config file,
> or what?  Or is my version of Fractint just busted?

Please ignore this.  I went and actually tried textsafe=save as a
command-line parameter, and it worked!  I should really learn to try
everything before writing in with a problem... DUH!!!!!!

> Justin K.
>
> "I only use Windows because:
> 1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
> 2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
> (I think) :( :*( :^(
> 3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
> store?! ;)"
> -Me
>
>  Justin Kolodziej is  [e-mail]
>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Goswin Brederlow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 13 Oct 1997 22:45:45 +0200

"Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]> writes:

> [NOTE: This is somewhat technical material.  Non-programmers should skip
> this message.]
>
> Evin,
>
>  - Well, I say keep the integer math.  Despite what some people have said,
>  - integer math is, in general, faster than floating point, with a few
>  - exceptions.
>
> OK, to clarify the point: on an Intel Pentium, the FPU multiply of 64x64
> (mantissa only, exponents are just added) occurs with one-cycle throughput
> rather than 10-cycle throughput for a 32x32 integer multiply.  This is the
> most common case where the FPU is faster.  Other cases are square roots (70
> vs. a few hundred, depending on your integer algorithm) and trig or log
> functions (huge differences).

On an MC68060 its 2 cycles for a 32 Bit int multiply (and the cpu can
put that into a pipeline and do other stuff inbetween) and more for
fpu. I think even with 64 Bit ints its faster than fpu. This is also
true for other cpu's. On intel cpu's the fpu is highly optimized and
much faster than the crapy int unit. Thats why you gain with fpu
there. I vote against removeing the int code, but for porting it to 32
bit and 64 bit.

> MMX will probably not help fractals much.  It is true that the MMX multiply
> is fast--one cycle to do four 16x16 multiplies--but the catch is, it is
> ONLY a 16-bit multiply.  Sixteen bits of precision just doesn't get you
> very far in fractals; and while it is possible to use this for extended
> precision, it is highly unlikely to be faster than the FPU's 64x64
> multiply, especially when you factor in the rest of the work that needs to
> be done.

you can do x^2 and y^2 at the same time with mmx. You can also emulate
a 32/64 Bit multiply with a few four 16x16 multiply cycles. I think it
won't be much slower and you also have more registers to store the
numbers and don't need to write to memory.

> Actually, the problem FractInt has is that multiply instructions (IMUL and
> MUL) are *not* pairable instructions on the Pentium, and so not only do
> they consume 10-11 cycles each, but they *also* prevent other instructions
> from running at the same time.  On the PPro and P-II, the assignment of

Thats a intel problem and other cpu's should also be considered.

> I think the bigger issue is whether it is *worth* porting all that integer
> assembly code to a 32-bit environment.  Me, I don't think it's worth it.
> Yes, there are some folks who have images based on artifacts in the integer
> code.  I'm not convinced it's worth preserving the artifacting, especially
> if it hinders the growth of FractInt in other areas.  If I had to choose
> between having synchronous orbits working fast, or integer math support in
> a 32-bit environment, guess which one I'm gonna choose?  (Good thing I
> don't decide stuff, huh? :)

Why not use a library that does this? There are libraries for n Bit
interger operations out there which can be utilised. One just have to
find one that is optimised for small integers and one for big integers
(>256 Bit).

May the Source be with you.
            Mrvn


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Goswin Brederlow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 22:53:43 +0200

"Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]> writes:

> [1  <text/plain; us-ascii (7bit)>]
> In the Integer v. Float thread, the suggestion was made to compile
> Fractint in the future using DJGPP.  This would produce a 32-bit DOS
> application AND have the advantage of being easily portable to other
> systems, assuming I remember the discussion correctly.
>
> My response is:  Sure, go ahead with it for now.  But for a future
> release (Fractint 50 or thereabouts ;) )  why not rewrite the whole
> program in Java?  This would make the program universally useable (even
> on Macintosh(probably)).

You're aiming for V50 being Java could be right and before that
Version javal probably will in no way be usable for highly cpu
demanding stuff like fractals. Fractals are pretty much the only
things left that are worth writeing in asm for. Java might or might
not ever be fast enough and at the time being its unuseable for
anything but dreams and www aplets.

If the aim is to have fractint running on any computer then C is the
way to go and C is fast enough. Also it's easy to have inline asm for
various cpu's. C++ or Objective C is also an option and there isn't a
differenc in speed if it's done right.

With todays compilers for C its also hardly neccessary to write inline
asm for more then the bare core of the formula (if even). On a PPC for
example the iner loop of a Mandelbrod Fractal can be written in 6 asm
lines, the rest of the programm can be wastefull, because its hardly
used.

May the Source be with you.
            Mrvn


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 14:25:12 -0400

> Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, Java didn't
> enjoy the writing of files...

        There was TWO different category of
        Java programs

Java "applets" (downloaded from the Net and running in
a browser, in a Web context) can't access the local file
system.  --> Security

Java "applications" (running from the command line)
have the same access to the file system than others
applications.

Best Regards from Toulouse, France.
        Thierry.

p.s. If you remove Int math from Fractint, you can rename
  "Fractint" to "Fractint" (Fractals are Internationals :-)



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 13 Oct 1997 17:42:37 -0400

>        There was TWO different category of
>        Java programs
>
>Java "applets" (downloaded from the Net and running in
>a browser, in a Web context) can't access the local file
>system.  --> Security
>
>Java "applications" (running from the command line)
>have the same access to the file system than others
>applications.

Ah. Okay, I wasn't sure whether applications had the same limits as applets.

>>BKNambo
--
| H         [e-mail]     |  UIN: 1936556   ____    __|
|=@==== http://come.to/brocks.place | [      ] TSILB /_   \  / /|
| H H H "World Domination Through Trivia" -S3Kitties  / /\ \/ / |
| H H H Marcher -- Just my imagination -- Nightwatch /_/  \__/  |


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) Subject is irrelevant - you will be assimilated!
Date: 13 Oct 1997 23:38:45 -0400


------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD83B.6337C280
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original Message-----
Sent:    dimanche, 12 octobre 1997 23:17

Dunno. Why do you end every line with "=3D"?

I don't do it on purpose... Using Outlook (not Express), that might =
explain it according to another poster... Maybe I should hit enter to =
finish of my lines... put that only for paragraphs, right?

>    I'm using Fractint 19.6 in a dos box (4dos, actually :) thru Windows =
=3D
>95... When I open a dos box, I find out I have 617k of conventionnal =
=3D
>memory left (not bad I think...). So here is my terrible question: why =
=3D
>can't I shell to Dos from Fractint? Wherever I am, (menu or image...), =
I =3D
>hit 'D' but I end up calculating the current image...

It does this to me too in Win 95 on my 486dx2 50 with 8 megs ram. It
doesn't on my *new P166 with 32 megs RAM ;) ;) ;)*... so it has =
something
to do with ram/speed.

Hum... I have a P90/24Megs... should be such a problem either... But =
like I said, it ain't that bad anyhow.

[Smallish binary snipped]

I think it's poor netiquette(?) to post binaries here... PAR files and
formulas are welcome though.

Again, I don't know where that came from... Is it happening again? I =
changed a few options before sending this particular message... An email =
might be a better idea...

I'm keeping it to Fractint from now on, with one last request: could you =
make your subjects meaningfull, especially when replying? Otherwise we =
get way off track...


CIAO!

'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5
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cm9ncmFtbWV1ci9EZXNpZ25lcgAAAAAeABg6AQAAAAQAAABSJkQAHgAZOgEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAIA
BUUMAAAAAgAGRQAAAAACAAhFAwAAAAIACUUCAAAACwAKRQAAAAADAA1FAAAAAAIADkUAAAAAAgAP
RQAAAAACABBFAAAAAB4AFkUBAAAAAQAAAAAAAAALABhFAAAAAAMAGUUAAAAAHgAaRQEAAAAXAAAA
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KERpcmVjdCBEaWFsKQAACwABgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAOACCAGAAAA
AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAm
gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMAJ4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG
AAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADADGACCAGAAAAAADA
AAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAM4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgBCgAgg
BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQ4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA
ADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAESACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAA
HgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAANcJ

------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD83B.6337C280--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nigel Long <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) old user, new problem
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:55:57 PDT


re: Diamond stealth 200 Pro video card.

This card uses an S3 Virge chip, and is the OEM version (not retail). Every time I
try to access one of the VESA autodetect modes it tells me that this mode is not
supported by my card. It works fine with other DOS apps however.

I am not interested in the modes greater than 256 colors, but I do have a huge
collection of 1024x768x256 images I use all the time, and it would be nice to be
able to use them.

I am not using windows in any flavour when I try to run Fractint (I have a dual boot
configuration). Everything points to Fractint's VESA detection failing with this
chipset, but why? since other people seem to have no problems. Are any of you
using any kind of extra VESA driver to run the card in DOS?

Nigel Long.



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From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:34:01 -0400 (EDT)

   In response to someone's comments about relative processor cycles for
ints and floats on a 68xxx processor, I would again request that people
try and give time comparisons on as many processors as possible, inasmuch
as converting numbers that are actually floating-point to integers must
itself use some processor time, nu?

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Books
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:22:10 -0600


Some time ago, the Library of Science book club had an offer where you
could get "Fractal Geometry of Nature", "Fractals Everywhere" and
another fractal book all for $3 when you joined the club.  I'm not
sure if they are still making that offer though.  I joined on that
offer and it was indeed a great deal :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:27:53 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I just have to ask: What's all this talk about synchronous orbits with
> fractals?  Did an altavista search and came up with nothing related to
> the topic.

I had it explained to me once, but now I forget... is it in the
sci.fractals FAQ?
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 14 Oct 1997 10:30:45 -0600

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <5101.876846632.1@woody>

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail]  writes:
> Hey Sylvie,
> I tried to run "rand_generic" and got an "undefined function" error
> indicating that "3D" was unefined. What did I do wrong?

That's what happens when people post messages with the
"Content-Encoding" of "printed-quotable".  Replace all instances of
=XX with the character whose ASCII code is XX in hexadecimal.  ASCII
chart appended for reference.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0
Content-Type: text/plain; name="ascii.txt"; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <5101.876846632.2@woody>

NAME
     ascii - map of ASCII character set

DESCRIPTION
     The ASCII character set defines a 1-to-1 mapping of characters to 8-bit
     values:

     octal:
     |000 nul |001 soh |002 stx    |003 etx |004 eot |005 enq |006    ack |007 bel |
     |010 bs  |011 ht  |012 nl    |013 vt     |014 np  |015 cr  |016    so  |017 si  |
     |020 dle |021 dc1 |022 dc2    |023 dc3 |024 dc4 |025 nak |026    syn |027 etb |
     |030 can |031 em  |032 sub    |033 esc |034 fs  |035 gs  |036    rs  |037 us  |
     |040 sp  |041 !   |042 "    |043 #     |044 $      |045 %   |046    &   |047 '   |
     |050 (   |051 )   |052 *    |053 +     |054 ,      |055 -   |056    .   |057 /   |
     |060 0   |061 1   |062 2    |063 3     |064 4      |065 5   |066    6   |067 7   |
     |070 8   |071 9   |072 :    |073 ;     |074 <      |075 =   |076    >   |077 ?   |
     |100 @   |101 A   |102 B    |103 C     |104 D      |105 E   |106    F   |107 G   |
     |110 H   |111 I   |112 J    |113 K     |114 L      |115 M   |116    N   |117 O   |
     |120 P   |121 Q   |122 R    |123 S     |124 T      |125 U   |126    V   |127 W   |
     |130 X   |131 Y   |132 Z    |133 [     |134 \      |135 ]   |136    ^   |137 _   |
     |140 `   |141 a   |142 b    |143 c     |144 d      |145 e   |146    f   |147 g   |
     |150 h   |151 i   |152 j    |153 k     |154 l      |155 m   |156    n   |157 o   |
     |160 p   |161 q   |162 r    |163 s     |164 t      |165 u   |166    v   |167 w   |
     |170 x   |171 y   |172 z    |173 {     |174 |      |175 }   |176    ~   |177 del |

     hexadecimal:
     | 00 nul |    01 soh | 02 stx    | 03 etx | 04 eot | 05 enq | 06    ack | 07 bel |
     | 08 bs  |    09 ht  | 0a nl    | 0b vt     | 0c np  | 0d cr  | 0e    so  | 0f si  |
     | 10 dle |    11 dc1 | 12 dc2    | 13 dc3 | 14 dc4 | 15 nak | 16    syn | 17 etb |
     | 18 can |    19 em  | 1a sub    | 1b esc | 1c fs  | 1d gs  | 1e    rs  | 1f us  |
     | 20 sp  |    21 !   | 22 "    | 23 #     | 24 $      | 25 %   | 26    &   | 27 '   |
     | 28 (   |    29 )   | 2a *    | 2b +     | 2c ,      | 2d -   | 2e    .   | 2f /   |
     | 30 0   |    31 1   | 32 2    | 33 3     | 34 4      | 35 5   | 36    6   | 37 7   |
     | 38 8   |    39 9   | 3a :    | 3b ;     | 3c <      | 3d =   | 3e    >   | 3f ?   |
     | 40 @   |    41 A   | 42 B    | 43 C     | 44 D      | 45 E   | 46    F   | 47 G   |
     | 48 H   |    49 I   | 4a J    | 4b K     | 4c L      | 4d M   | 4e    N   | 4f O   |
     | 50 P   |    51 Q   | 52 R    | 53 S     | 54 T      | 55 U   | 56    V   | 57 W   |
     | 58 X   |    59 Y   | 5a Z    | 5b [     | 5c \      | 5d ]   | 5e    ^   | 5f _   |
     | 60 `   |    61 a   | 62 b    | 63 c     | 64 d      | 65 e   | 66    f   | 67 g   |
     | 68 h   |    69 i   | 6a j    | 6b k     | 6c l      | 6d m   | 6e    n   | 6f o   |
     | 70 p   |    71 q   | 72 r    | 73 s     | 74 t      | 75 u   | 76    v   | 77 w   |
     | 78 x   |    79 y   | 7a z    | 7b {     | 7c |      | 7d }   | 7e    ~   | 7f del |

     decimal:
     |    0 nul |     1 soh |  2 stx    |  3 etx |  4 eot |  5 enq |  6    ack |  7 bel |
     |    8 bs  |     9 ht  | 10 nl    | 11 vt     | 12 np  | 13 cr  | 14    so  | 15 si  |
     | 16 dle |    17 dc1 | 18 dc2    | 19 dc3 | 20 dc4 | 21 nak | 22    syn | 23 etb |
     | 24 can |    25 em  | 26 sub    | 27 esc | 28 fs  | 29 gs  | 30    rs  | 31 us  |
     | 32 sp  |    33 !   | 34 "    | 35 #     | 36 $      | 37 %   | 38    &   | 39 '   |
     | 40 (   |    41 )   | 42 *    | 43 +     | 44 ,      | 45 -   | 46    .   | 47 /   |
     | 48 0   |    49 1   | 50 2    | 51 3     | 52 4      | 53 5   | 54    6   | 55 7   |
     | 56 8   |    57 9   | 58 :    | 59 ;     | 60 <      | 61 =   | 62    >   | 63 ?   |
     | 64 @   |    65 A   | 66 B    | 67 C     | 68 D      | 69 E   | 70    F   | 71 G   |
     | 72 H   |    73 I   | 74 J    | 75 K     | 76 L      | 77 M   | 78    N   | 79 O   |
     | 80 P   |    81 Q   | 82 R    | 83 S     | 84 T      | 85 U   | 86    V   | 87 W   |
     | 88 X   |    89 Y   | 90 Z    | 91 [     | 92 \      | 93 ]   | 94    ^   | 95 _   |
     | 96 `   |    97 a   | 98 b    | 99 c     |100 d      |101 e   |102    f   |103 g   |
     |104 h   |105 i   |106 j    |107 k     |108 l      |109 m   |110    n   |111 o   |
     |112 p   |113 q   |114 r    |115 s     |116 t      |117 u   |118    v   |119 w   |
     |120 x   |121 y   |122 z    |123 {     |124 |      |125 }   |126    ~   |127 del |

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Remove Int math ?
Date: 14 Oct 1997 12:22:33 -0500

Hey! Thanks for the chart.

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cynthia Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
Date: 14 Oct 1997 12:51:09 -0500

We are looking for programs that create FRACTAL ANIMATIONS.  The search is
actually to identify companies to approach for a teaming effort to
integrate fractal animation capabilities into an existing VB/C++ program.
Please send me your suggestions as to where to find such programs.
Additionally, if you are an excellent C++ programmer with fractal animation
experience interested in being part of an innovative team please respond
via email to: [e-mail]
--Cindy
[e-mail]
[phone]
[phone]
__________________________________________________________

 0000        \\\        """"         """"
O .. O         ..        @@ ;        ' 00 '
   ~         (-)        (-)         (__)
__________________________________________________________


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 13:21:23 -0500

I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
questions.
1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that there are only
256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as red=120, grn=120,
blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a factorial of colors (256!)

2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
colors?

I hope this doesn't come across as TOO lazy. But I will send a FREE
Newsted Fractal to anyone who responds! Really! (noe how could you
possibly pass THAT up??!!)

Thanks,
Nuke
p.s. Ever observe fractal conversations in your morning meetings?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 12:23:32 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)  writes:
> 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that there are only
> 256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as red=120, grn=120,
> blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a factorial of colors (256!)

Color maps select 256 colors from a palette of 16.7 million (2^24).
So there are 16.7 million distinct colors from which you can select
256 to place in the colormap.

> 2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
> colors?

I'm not sure what you're asking for here?  Typically fractint uses the
iteration count as the index into the colormap to color a pixel.
Various options change this behavior, and the concept of "iteration
count" doesn't have the same meaning for some fractal types (cellular
and ifs come to mind)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 14 Oct 1997 12:37:57 -0600

It was asked recently what compilers supported 80-bit long double
floating point format.  According to the documentation for Borland's
C++Builder, it does support this format.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 14:43:35 -0400 (EDT)


Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
>
> I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> questions.
> 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that there are only
> 256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as red=120, grn=120,
> blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a factorial of colors (256!)
>
   You should interpret these as intensities. You're mapping the
truecolor, 16.7 million palette (256 cubed, not factorial) to a 256 color
palette. 0,0,0, is pure black; 1,1,1, is a very dark grey; 255,255,255 is
white.

> 2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
> colors?

Obviously not, for so many. There are a number of utilities that do
nothing but show you what a colorvalue produces; I can't point to any
offhand, but as most were made to help write web pages you might look in
that direction. The palette editor and the eyedropper tool of any paint
program (i.e. paintshop pro at jasc.com) will also be able to do this.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 13:21:42 -0600

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <6423.876856039.1@woody>

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)  writes:
> 2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
> colors?

Oh.  DUH!  Sorry, brain cramp on my part :).  Now I understand what
you're asking for... Perhaps the attached file will help you out?  Its
included with the X Window System as a database of color names.  The
first three numbers are the red, green and blue components of the
color.  If you get really interested in computer representations of
color, you might want to read the Color Space FAQ. <URL:
http://www.inforamp.net/~poynton/ColorFAQ.html>.  Read that FAQ if you
really want to understand the ins and outs of computer representation
of color (and why it doesn't always do what you expect; for instance
evenly spaced values in RGB space aren't perceived as evenly spaced
changes in color).
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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Content-Type: text/plain; name="rgb.txt"; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <6423.876856039.2@woody>

! $XConsortium: rgb.txt,v 10.41 94/02/20 18:39:36 rws Exp $
255 250 250        snow
248 248 255        ghost white
248 248 255        GhostWhite
245 245 245        white smoke
245 245 245        WhiteSmoke
220 220 220        gainsboro
255 250 240        floral white
255 250 240        FloralWhite
253 245 230        old lace
253 245 230        OldLace
250 240 230        linen
250 235 215        antique white
250 235 215        AntiqueWhite
255 239 213        papaya whip
255 239 213        PapayaWhip
255 235 205        blanched almond
255 235 205        BlanchedAlmond
255 228 196        bisque
255 218 185        peach puff
255 218 185        PeachPuff
255 222 173        navajo white
255 222 173        NavajoWhite
255 228 181        moccasin
255 248 220        cornsilk
255 255 240        ivory
255 250 205        lemon chiffon
255 250 205        LemonChiffon
255 245 238        seashell
240 255 240        honeydew
245 255 250        mint cream
245 255 250        MintCream
240 255 255        azure
240 248 255        alice blue
240 248 255        AliceBlue
230 230 250        lavender
255 240 245        lavender blush
255 240 245        LavenderBlush
255 228 225        misty rose
255 228 225        MistyRose
255 255 255        white
  0   0   0        black
 47  79  79        dark slate gray
 47  79  79        DarkSlateGray
 47  79  79        dark slate grey
 47  79  79        DarkSlateGrey
105 105 105        dim gray
105 105 105        DimGray
105 105 105        dim grey
105 105 105        DimGrey
112 128 144        slate gray
112 128 144        SlateGray
112 128 144        slate grey
112 128 144        SlateGrey
119 136 153        light slate gray
119 136 153        LightSlateGray
119 136 153        light slate grey
119 136 153        LightSlateGrey
190 190 190        gray
190 190 190        grey
211 211 211        light grey
211 211 211        LightGrey
211 211 211        light gray
211 211 211        LightGray
 25  25 112        midnight blue
 25  25 112        MidnightBlue
  0   0 128        navy
  0   0 128        navy blue
  0   0 128        NavyBlue
100 149 237        cornflower blue
100 149 237        CornflowerBlue
 72  61 139        dark slate blue
 72  61 139        DarkSlateBlue
106  90 205        slate blue
106  90 205        SlateBlue
123 104 238        medium slate blue
123 104 238        MediumSlateBlue
132 112 255        light slate blue
132 112 255        LightSlateBlue
  0   0 205        medium blue
  0   0 205        MediumBlue
 65 105 225        royal blue
 65 105 225        RoyalBlue
  0   0 255        blue
 30 144 255        dodger blue
 30 144 255        DodgerBlue
  0 191 255        deep sky blue
  0 191 255        DeepSkyBlue
135 206 235        sky blue
135 206 235        SkyBlue
135 206 250        light sky blue
135 206 250        LightSkyBlue
 70 130 180        steel blue
 70 130 180        SteelBlue
176 196 222        light steel blue
176 196 222        LightSteelBlue
173 216 230        light blue
173 216 230        LightBlue
176 224 230        powder blue
176 224 230        PowderBlue
175 238 238        pale turquoise
175 238 238        PaleTurquoise
  0 206 209        dark turquoise
  0 206 209        DarkTurquoise
 72 209 204        medium turquoise
 72 209 204        MediumTurquoise
 64 224 208        turquoise
  0 255 255        cyan
224 255 255        light cyan
224 255 255        LightCyan
 95 158 160        cadet blue
 95 158 160        CadetBlue
102 205 170        medium aquamarine
102 205 170        MediumAquamarine
127 255 212        aquamarine
  0 100   0        dark green
  0 100   0        DarkGreen
 85 107  47        dark olive green
 85 107  47        DarkOliveGreen
143 188 143        dark sea green
143 188 143        DarkSeaGreen
 46 139  87        sea green
 46 139  87        SeaGreen
 60 179 113        medium sea green
 60 179 113        MediumSeaGreen
 32 178 170        light sea green
 32 178 170        LightSeaGreen
152 251 152        pale green
152 251 152        PaleGreen
  0 255 127        spring green
  0 255 127        SpringGreen
124 252   0        lawn green
124 252   0        LawnGreen
  0 255   0        green
127 255   0        chartreuse
  0 250 154        medium spring green
  0 250 154        MediumSpringGreen
173 255  47        green yellow
173 255  47        GreenYellow
 50 205  50        lime green
 50 205  50        LimeGreen
154 205  50        yellow green
154 205  50        YellowGreen
 34 139  34        forest green
 34 139  34        ForestGreen
107 142  35        olive drab
107 142  35        OliveDrab
189 183 107        dark khaki
189 183 107        DarkKhaki
240 230 140        khaki
238 232 170        pale goldenrod
238 232 170        PaleGoldenrod
250 250 210        light goldenrod yellow
250 250 210        LightGoldenrodYellow
255 255 224        light yellow
255 255 224        LightYellow
255 255   0        yellow
255 215   0         gold
238 221 130        light goldenrod
238 221 130        LightGoldenrod
218 165  32        goldenrod
184 134  11        dark goldenrod
184 134  11        DarkGoldenrod
188 143 143        rosy brown
188 143 143        RosyBrown
205  92  92        indian red
205  92  92        IndianRed
139  69  19        saddle brown
139  69  19        SaddleBrown
160  82  45        sienna
205 133  63        peru
222 184 135        burlywood
245 245 220        beige
245 222 179        wheat
244 164  96        sandy brown
244 164  96        SandyBrown
210 180 140        tan
210 105  30        chocolate
178  34  34        firebrick
165  42  42        brown
233 150 122        dark salmon
233 150 122        DarkSalmon
250 128 114        salmon
255 160 122        light salmon
255 160 122        LightSalmon
255 165   0        orange
255 140   0        dark orange
255 140   0        DarkOrange
255 127  80        coral
240 128 128        light coral
240 128 128        LightCoral
255  99  71        tomato
255  69   0        orange red
255  69   0        OrangeRed
255   0   0        red
255 105 180        hot pink
255 105 180        HotPink
255  20 147        deep pink
255  20 147        DeepPink
255 192 203        pink
255 182 193        light pink
255 182 193        LightPink
219 112 147        pale violet red
219 112 147        PaleVioletRed
176  48  96        maroon
199  21 133        medium violet red
199  21 133        MediumVioletRed
208  32 144        violet red
208  32 144        VioletRed
255   0 255        magenta
238 130 238        violet
221 160 221        plum
218 112 214        orchid
186  85 211        medium orchid
186  85 211        MediumOrchid
153  50 204        dark orchid
153  50 204        DarkOrchid
148   0 211        dark violet
148   0 211        DarkViolet
138  43 226        blue violet
138  43 226        BlueViolet
160  32 240        purple
147 112 219        medium purple
147 112 219        MediumPurple
216 191 216        thistle
255 250 250        snow1
238 233 233        snow2
205 201 201        snow3
139 137 137        snow4
255 245 238        seashell1
238 229 222        seashell2
205 197 191        seashell3
139 134 130        seashell4
255 239 219        AntiqueWhite1
238 223 204        AntiqueWhite2
205 192 176        AntiqueWhite3
139 131 120        AntiqueWhite4
255 228 196        bisque1
238 213 183        bisque2
205 183 158        bisque3
139 125 107        bisque4
255 218 185        PeachPuff1
238 203 173        PeachPuff2
205 175 149        PeachPuff3
139 119 101        PeachPuff4
255 222 173        NavajoWhite1
238 207 161        NavajoWhite2
205 179 139        NavajoWhite3
139 121     94        NavajoWhite4
255 250 205        LemonChiffon1
238 233 191        LemonChiffon2
205 201 165        LemonChiffon3
139 137 112        LemonChiffon4
255 248 220        cornsilk1
238 232 205        cornsilk2
205 200 177        cornsilk3
139 136 120        cornsilk4
255 255 240        ivory1
238 238 224        ivory2
205 205 193        ivory3
139 139 131        ivory4
240 255 240        honeydew1
224 238 224        honeydew2
193 205 193        honeydew3
131 139 131        honeydew4
255 240 245        LavenderBlush1
238 224 229        LavenderBlush2
205 193 197        LavenderBlush3
139 131 134        LavenderBlush4
255 228 225        MistyRose1
238 213 210        MistyRose2
205 183 181        MistyRose3
139 125 123        MistyRose4
240 255 255        azure1
224 238 238        azure2
193 205 205        azure3
131 139 139        azure4
131 111 255        SlateBlue1
122 103 238        SlateBlue2
105  89 205        SlateBlue3
 71  60 139        SlateBlue4
 72 118 255        RoyalBlue1
 67 110 238        RoyalBlue2
 58  95 205        RoyalBlue3
 39  64 139        RoyalBlue4
  0   0 255        blue1
  0   0 238        blue2
  0   0 205        blue3
  0   0 139        blue4
 30 144 255        DodgerBlue1
 28 134 238        DodgerBlue2
 24 116 205        DodgerBlue3
 16  78 139        DodgerBlue4
 99 184 255        SteelBlue1
 92 172 238        SteelBlue2
 79 148 205        SteelBlue3
 54 100 139        SteelBlue4
  0 191 255        DeepSkyBlue1
  0 178 238        DeepSkyBlue2
  0 154 205        DeepSkyBlue3
  0 104 139        DeepSkyBlue4
135 206 255        SkyBlue1
126 192 238        SkyBlue2
108 166 205        SkyBlue3
 74 112 139        SkyBlue4
176 226 255        LightSkyBlue1
164 211 238        LightSkyBlue2
141 182 205        LightSkyBlue3
 96 123 139        LightSkyBlue4
198 226 255        SlateGray1
185 211 238        SlateGray2
159 182 205        SlateGray3
108 123 139        SlateGray4
202 225 255        LightSteelBlue1
188 210 238        LightSteelBlue2
162 181 205        LightSteelBlue3
110 123 139        LightSteelBlue4
191 239 255        LightBlue1
178 223 238        LightBlue2
154 192 205        LightBlue3
104 131 139        LightBlue4
224 255 255        LightCyan1
209 238 238        LightCyan2
180 205 205        LightCyan3
122 139 139        LightCyan4
187 255 255        PaleTurquoise1
174 238 238        PaleTurquoise2
150 205 205        PaleTurquoise3
102 139 139        PaleTurquoise4
152 245 255        CadetBlue1
142 229 238        CadetBlue2
122 197 205        CadetBlue3
 83 134 139        CadetBlue4
  0 245 255        turquoise1
  0 229 238        turquoise2
  0 197 205        turquoise3
  0 134 139        turquoise4
  0 255 255        cyan1
  0 238 238        cyan2
  0 205 205        cyan3
  0 139 139        cyan4
151 255 255        DarkSlateGray1
141 238 238        DarkSlateGray2
121 205 205        DarkSlateGray3
 82 139 139        DarkSlateGray4
127 255 212        aquamarine1
118 238 198        aquamarine2
102 205 170        aquamarine3
 69 139 116        aquamarine4
193 255 193        DarkSeaGreen1
180 238 180        DarkSeaGreen2
155 205 155        DarkSeaGreen3
105 139 105        DarkSeaGreen4
 84 255 159        SeaGreen1
 78 238 148        SeaGreen2
 67 205 128        SeaGreen3
 46 139     87        SeaGreen4
154 255 154        PaleGreen1
144 238 144        PaleGreen2
124 205 124        PaleGreen3
 84 139     84        PaleGreen4
  0 255 127        SpringGreen1
  0 238 118        SpringGreen2
  0 205 102        SpringGreen3
  0 139     69        SpringGreen4
  0 255      0        green1
  0 238      0        green2
  0 205      0        green3
  0 139      0        green4
127 255      0        chartreuse1
118 238      0        chartreuse2
102 205      0        chartreuse3
 69 139      0        chartreuse4
192 255     62        OliveDrab1
179 238     58        OliveDrab2
154 205     50        OliveDrab3
105 139     34        OliveDrab4
202 255 112        DarkOliveGreen1
188 238 104        DarkOliveGreen2
162 205     90        DarkOliveGreen3
110 139     61        DarkOliveGreen4
255 246 143        khaki1
238 230 133        khaki2
205 198 115        khaki3
139 134     78        khaki4
255 236 139        LightGoldenrod1
238 220 130        LightGoldenrod2
205 190 112        LightGoldenrod3
139 129     76        LightGoldenrod4
255 255 224        LightYellow1
238 238 209        LightYellow2
205 205 180        LightYellow3
139 139 122        LightYellow4
255 255      0        yellow1
238 238      0        yellow2
205 205      0        yellow3
139 139      0        yellow4
255 215      0        gold1
238 201      0        gold2
205 173      0        gold3
139 117      0        gold4
255 193     37        goldenrod1
238 180     34        goldenrod2
205 155     29        goldenrod3
139 105     20        goldenrod4
255 185     15        DarkGoldenrod1
238 173     14        DarkGoldenrod2
205 149     12        DarkGoldenrod3
139 101      8        DarkGoldenrod4
255 193 193        RosyBrown1
238 180 180        RosyBrown2
205 155 155        RosyBrown3
139 105 105        RosyBrown4
255 106 106        IndianRed1
238  99     99        IndianRed2
205  85     85        IndianRed3
139  58     58        IndianRed4
255 130     71        sienna1
238 121     66        sienna2
205 104     57        sienna3
139  71     38        sienna4
255 211 155        burlywood1
238 197 145        burlywood2
205 170 125        burlywood3
139 115     85        burlywood4
255 231 186        wheat1
238 216 174        wheat2
205 186 150        wheat3
139 126 102        wheat4
255 165     79        tan1
238 154     73        tan2
205 133     63        tan3
139  90     43        tan4
255 127     36        chocolate1
238 118     33        chocolate2
205 102     29        chocolate3
139  69     19        chocolate4
255  48     48        firebrick1
238  44     44        firebrick2
205  38     38        firebrick3
139  26     26        firebrick4
255  64     64        brown1
238  59     59        brown2
205  51     51        brown3
139  35     35        brown4
255 140 105        salmon1
238 130     98        salmon2
205 112     84        salmon3
139  76     57        salmon4
255 160 122        LightSalmon1
238 149 114        LightSalmon2
205 129     98        LightSalmon3
139  87     66        LightSalmon4
255 165      0        orange1
238 154      0        orange2
205 133      0        orange3
139  90      0        orange4
255 127      0        DarkOrange1
238 118      0        DarkOrange2
205 102      0        DarkOrange3
139  69      0        DarkOrange4
255 114     86        coral1
238 106     80        coral2
205  91     69        coral3
139  62     47        coral4
255  99     71        tomato1
238  92     66        tomato2
205  79     57        tomato3
139  54     38        tomato4
255  69      0        OrangeRed1
238  64      0        OrangeRed2
205  55      0        OrangeRed3
139  37      0        OrangeRed4
255   0      0        red1
238   0      0        red2
205   0      0        red3
139   0      0        red4
255  20 147        DeepPink1
238  18 137        DeepPink2
205  16 118        DeepPink3
139  10     80        DeepPink4
255 110 180        HotPink1
238 106 167        HotPink2
205  96 144        HotPink3
139  58  98        HotPink4
255 181 197        pink1
238 169 184        pink2
205 145 158        pink3
139  99 108        pink4
255 174 185        LightPink1
238 162 173        LightPink2
205 140 149        LightPink3
139  95 101        LightPink4
255 130 171        PaleVioletRed1
238 121 159        PaleVioletRed2
205 104 137        PaleVioletRed3
139  71     93        PaleVioletRed4
255  52 179        maroon1
238  48 167        maroon2
205  41 144        maroon3
139  28     98        maroon4
255  62 150        VioletRed1
238  58 140        VioletRed2
205  50 120        VioletRed3
139  34     82        VioletRed4
255   0 255        magenta1
238   0 238        magenta2
205   0 205        magenta3
139   0 139        magenta4
255 131 250        orchid1
238 122 233        orchid2
205 105 201        orchid3
139  71 137        orchid4
255 187 255        plum1
238 174 238        plum2
205 150 205        plum3
139 102 139        plum4
224 102 255        MediumOrchid1
209  95 238        MediumOrchid2
180  82 205        MediumOrchid3
122  55 139        MediumOrchid4
191  62 255        DarkOrchid1
178  58 238        DarkOrchid2
154  50 205        DarkOrchid3
104  34 139        DarkOrchid4
155  48 255        purple1
145  44 238        purple2
125  38 205        purple3
 85  26 139        purple4
171 130 255        MediumPurple1
159 121 238        MediumPurple2
137 104 205        MediumPurple3
 93  71 139        MediumPurple4
255 225 255        thistle1
238 210 238        thistle2
205 181 205        thistle3
139 123 139        thistle4
  0   0   0        gray0
  0   0   0        grey0
  3   3   3        gray1
  3   3   3        grey1
  5   5   5        gray2
  5   5   5        grey2
  8   8   8        gray3
  8   8   8        grey3
 10  10  10         gray4
 10  10  10         grey4
 13  13  13         gray5
 13  13  13         grey5
 15  15  15         gray6
 15  15  15         grey6
 18  18  18         gray7
 18  18  18         grey7
 20  20  20         gray8
 20  20  20         grey8
 23  23  23         gray9
 23  23  23         grey9
 26  26  26         gray10
 26  26  26         grey10
 28  28  28         gray11
 28  28  28         grey11
 31  31  31         gray12
 31  31  31         grey12
 33  33  33         gray13
 33  33  33         grey13
 36  36  36         gray14
 36  36  36         grey14
 38  38  38         gray15
 38  38  38         grey15
 41  41  41         gray16
 41  41  41         grey16
 43  43  43         gray17
 43  43  43         grey17
 46  46  46         gray18
 46  46  46         grey18
 48  48  48         gray19
 48  48  48         grey19
 51  51  51         gray20
 51  51  51         grey20
 54  54  54         gray21
 54  54  54         grey21
 56  56  56         gray22
 56  56  56         grey22
 59  59  59         gray23
 59  59  59         grey23
 61  61  61         gray24
 61  61  61         grey24
 64  64  64         gray25
 64  64  64         grey25
 66  66  66         gray26
 66  66  66         grey26
 69  69  69         gray27
 69  69  69         grey27
 71  71  71         gray28
 71  71  71         grey28
 74  74  74         gray29
 74  74  74         grey29
 77  77  77         gray30
 77  77  77         grey30
 79  79  79         gray31
 79  79  79         grey31
 82  82  82         gray32
 82  82  82         grey32
 84  84  84         gray33
 84  84  84         grey33
 87  87  87         gray34
 87  87  87         grey34
 89  89  89         gray35
 89  89  89         grey35
 92  92  92         gray36
 92  92  92         grey36
 94  94  94         gray37
 94  94  94         grey37
 97  97  97         gray38
 97  97  97         grey38
 99  99  99         gray39
 99  99  99         grey39
102 102 102         gray40
102 102 102         grey40
105 105 105         gray41
105 105 105         grey41
107 107 107         gray42
107 107 107         grey42
110 110 110         gray43
110 110 110         grey43
112 112 112         gray44
112 112 112         grey44
115 115 115         gray45
115 115 115         grey45
117 117 117         gray46
117 117 117         grey46
120 120 120         gray47
120 120 120         grey47
122 122 122         gray48
122 122 122         grey48
125 125 125         gray49
125 125 125         grey49
127 127 127         gray50
127 127 127         grey50
130 130 130         gray51
130 130 130         grey51
133 133 133         gray52
133 133 133         grey52
135 135 135         gray53
135 135 135         grey53
138 138 138         gray54
138 138 138         grey54
140 140 140         gray55
140 140 140         grey55
143 143 143         gray56
143 143 143         grey56
145 145 145         gray57
145 145 145         grey57
148 148 148         gray58
148 148 148         grey58
150 150 150         gray59
150 150 150         grey59
153 153 153         gray60
153 153 153         grey60
156 156 156         gray61
156 156 156         grey61
158 158 158         gray62
158 158 158         grey62
161 161 161         gray63
161 161 161         grey63
163 163 163         gray64
163 163 163         grey64
166 166 166         gray65
166 166 166         grey65
168 168 168         gray66
168 168 168         grey66
171 171 171         gray67
171 171 171         grey67
173 173 173         gray68
173 173 173         grey68
176 176 176         gray69
176 176 176         grey69
179 179 179         gray70
179 179 179         grey70
181 181 181         gray71
181 181 181         grey71
184 184 184         gray72
184 184 184         grey72
186 186 186         gray73
186 186 186         grey73
189 189 189         gray74
189 189 189         grey74
191 191 191         gray75
191 191 191         grey75
194 194 194         gray76
194 194 194         grey76
196 196 196         gray77
196 196 196         grey77
199 199 199         gray78
199 199 199         grey78
201 201 201         gray79
201 201 201         grey79
204 204 204         gray80
204 204 204         grey80
207 207 207         gray81
207 207 207         grey81
209 209 209         gray82
209 209 209         grey82
212 212 212         gray83
212 212 212         grey83
214 214 214         gray84
214 214 214         grey84
217 217 217         gray85
217 217 217         grey85
219 219 219         gray86
219 219 219         grey86
222 222 222         gray87
222 222 222         grey87
224 224 224         gray88
224 224 224         grey88
227 227 227         gray89
227 227 227         grey89
229 229 229         gray90
229 229 229         grey90
232 232 232         gray91
232 232 232         grey91
235 235 235         gray92
235 235 235         grey92
237 237 237         gray93
237 237 237         grey93
240 240 240         gray94
240 240 240         grey94
242 242 242         gray95
242 242 242         grey95
245 245 245         gray96
245 245 245         grey96
247 247 247         gray97
247 247 247         grey97
250 250 250         gray98
250 250 250         grey98
252 252 252         gray99
252 252 252         grey99
255 255 255         gray100
255 255 255         grey100
169 169 169        dark grey
169 169 169        DarkGrey
169 169 169        dark gray
169 169 169        DarkGray
0     0 139        dark blue
0     0 139        DarkBlue
0   139 139        dark cyan
0   139 139        DarkCyan
139   0 139        dark magenta
139   0 139        DarkMagenta
139   0   0        dark red
139   0   0        DarkRed
144 238 144        light green
144 238 144        LightGreen
! Silicon Graphics special colors:
! These colors exist for backward compatibility with previous releases; we do
! not recommend you use these colors because they are unlikely to exist on
! non-SGI X servers.
  0   0   0         sgi gray 0
  0   0   0         SGIGray0
  0   0   0         sgi grey 0
  0   0   0         SGIGrey0
 10  10  10         sgi gray 4
 10  10  10         SGIGray4
 10  10  10         sgi grey 4
 10  10  10         SGIGrey4
 20  20  20         sgi gray 8
 20  20  20         SGIGray8
 20  20  20         sgi grey 8
 20  20  20         SGIGrey8
 30  30  30         sgi gray 12
 30  30  30         SGIGray12
 30  30  30         sgi grey 12
 30  30  30         SGIGrey12
 40  40  40         sgi gray 16
 40  40  40         SGIGray16
 40  40  40         sgi grey 16
 40  40  40         SGIGrey16
 51  51  51         sgi gray 20
 51  51  51         SGIGray20
 51  51  51         sgi grey 20
 51  51  51         SGIGrey20
 61  61  61         sgi gray 24
 61  61  61         SGIGray24
 61  61  61         sgi grey 24
 61  61  61         SGIGrey24
 71  71  71         sgi gray 28
 71  71  71         SGIGray28
 71  71  71         sgi grey 28
 71  71  71         SGIGrey28
 81  81  81         sgi gray 32
 81  81  81         SGIGray32
 81  81  81         sgi grey 32
 81  81  81         SGIGrey32
 91  91  91         sgi gray 36
 91  91  91         SGIGray36
 91  91  91         sgi grey 36
 91  91  91         SGIGrey36
102 102 102         sgi gray 40
102 102 102         SGIGray40
102 102 102         sgi grey 40
102 102 102         SGIGrey40
112 112 112         sgi gray 44
112 112 112         SGIGray44
112 112 112         sgi grey 44
112 112 112         SGIGrey44
122 122 122         sgi gray 48
122 122 122         SGIGray48
122 122 122         sgi grey 48
122 122 122         SGIGrey48
132 132 132         sgi gray 52
132 132 132         SGIGray52
132 132 132         sgi grey 52
132 132 132         SGIGrey52
142 142 142         sgi gray 56
142 142 142         SGIGray56
142 142 142         sgi grey 56
142 142 142         SGIGrey56
153 153 153         sgi gray 60
153 153 153         SGIGray60
153 153 153         sgi grey 60
153 153 153         SGIGrey60
163 163 163         sgi gray 64
163 163 163         SGIGray64
163 163 163         sgi grey 64
163 163 163         SGIGrey64
173 173 173         sgi gray 68
173 173 173         SGIGray68
173 173 173         sgi grey 68
173 173 173         SGIGrey68
183 183 183         sgi gray 72
183 183 183         SGIGray72
183 183 183         sgi grey 72
183 183 183         SGIGrey72
193 193 193         sgi gray 76
193 193 193         SGIGray76
193 193 193         sgi grey 76
193 193 193         SGIGrey76
204 204 204         sgi gray 80
204 204 204         SGIGray80
204 204 204         sgi grey 80
204 204 204         SGIGrey80
214 214 214         sgi gray 84
214 214 214         SGIGray84
214 214 214         sgi grey 84
214 214 214         SGIGrey84
224 224 224         sgi gray 88
224 224 224         SGIGray88
224 224 224         sgi grey 88
224 224 224         SGIGrey88
234 234 234         sgi gray 92
234 234 234         SGIGray92
234 234 234         sgi grey 92
234 234 234         SGIGrey92
244 244 244         sgi gray 96
244 244 244         SGIGray96
244 244 244         sgi grey 96
244 244 244         SGIGrey96
255 255 255         sgi gray 100
255 255 255         SGIGray100
255 255 255         sgi grey 100
255 255 255         SGIGrey100
125 158 192        sgi light blue
125 158 192        SGILightBlue
 85  85  85        sgi dark gray
 85  85  85        SGIDarkGray
 85  85  85        sgi dark grey
 85  85  85        SGIDarkGrey
198 113 113        sgi salmon
198 113 113        SGISalmon
113 198 113        sgi chartreuse
113 198 113        SGIChartreuse
142 142  56        sgi olive drab
142 142  56        SGIOliveDrab
113 113 198        sgi slate blue
113 113 198        SGISlateBlue
142 56  142        sgi beet
142 56  142        SGIBeet
 56 142 142        sgi teal
 56 142 142        SGITeal
170 170 170        sgi light gray
170 170 170        SGILightGray
170 170 170        sgi light grey
170 170 170        SGILightGrey
214 214 214             sgi very light gray
214 214 214             SGIVeryLightGray
214 214 214             sgi very light grey
214 214 214             SGIVeryLightGrey
132 132 132             sgi medium gray
132 132 132             SGIMediumGray
132 132 132             sgi medium grey
132 132 132             SGIMediumGrey
 40  40  40             sgi very dark gray
 40  40  40             SGIVeryDarkGray
 40  40  40             sgi very dark grey
 40  40  40             SGIVeryDarkGrey
197 193 170             sgi bright gray
197 193 170             SGIBrightGray
197 193 170             sgi bright grey
197 193 170             SGIBrightGrey
 75   0 130             Indigo
 33 136 104        Indigo2
220  20  60        Crimson

------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Date: 14 Oct 1997 14:23:18 -0500

...sllooowwly the fog lifts...
Drats! More fog.

Merle L. Newsted Jr.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits
Date: 14 Oct 1997 12:36:16 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I just have to ask: What's all this talk about synchronous orbits with
> fractals?  Did an altavista search and came up with nothing
> related to the topic.


Rollo Silver ([e-mail])
http://www.artvark.com/artvark/
published an article about this in his news letter,
Amigdala, a few years ago.  I don't recall the
author, it might even have been Rollo.

If I recall correctly, choose a rectangle in your image. Iterate
four  orbits corresponding the corners of the rectangle.  The
iterations are followed until their orbits become distorted
from a rectangle. Then the rectangle orbit pattern is subdivided
and the orbits of each part is followed additionally.   The
orbits are in z space, defined by a rectangular (or square)
cell in the c-space.

  z := z^2 + c;  z initially =0.

Repeat subdividing and iterating until the orbits get to your
maximum iteration limit, a corner escapes ( |z|>2, where you will
subdivide and work on the non-escaping parts ) or your
subdivision gets to the single pixel level.  Display the result for
the four pixels (or fill in the rectangle, if it is more than pixel
sized). Back out to the upper level (of subdividing) and process
the remaining parts at that level. Repeat until all parts of the
top level are finished.

Using recursive programming, the cells can be evaluated
for the whole image, starting with the complete or some
sub-division of the original image.

Very deep zooms are evaluated quicker because early
on, all the orbits in the cell are very nearly linear with c and
can be represented by the evaluation of the corner values.
Detailed calculations are performed only on portions having
unique patterns.

The distortion is identified when the rectangle looses its shape
(corners not right angles, sides not in correct ratio). Rotation
and expansion of the rectangle is allowed.

In April I wrote about this in sci.fractals:
>I think we can allow distortion into a parallelogram, but not
>too smashed (which losses information).  The degree of
>non-parallelism of the sides & relative lengths of the diagonals
>would be measures of deterioration.



Jay
--
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825/
main(){int f,g,h=0;float a,b,c,d,e;for(;h<3920;putchar("^/-,;<:lnb/bh`\
r/ylqbAmmhI/S/x`K\013"[++h>3840&&g<25?31-g:g>79?31:f]^1))if(!(f=(8*(c=(
d=(g=1+h%80)/31.-2)*d+(e=.047*(h/80-24))*e)-3)*c+d<3/32.?24:16*(1+2*d+c
)<1?30:0))for(a=d,b=c=0;(b=2*b*c+e)*b+(c=a)*a<=4&&++f<26;a=d-b*b+c*c);}




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From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 15:47:42 -0400

Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:

> I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> questions.
> 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that there are only
> 256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as red=120, grn=120,
> blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a factorial of colors (256!)

These numbers refer to the intensity of the color, for example:
R-0 G-0 B-0 would be black
R-1 G-1 B-1 would be very dark gray
R-120 G-120 B-120 would be medium gray
R-255 G-0 B-0 would be bright red
R-112 G-44 B-68 would be a shade of violet

256x256x256 gives you 16,777,216 possible colors. (This is also called
24-bit color since it can also be expressed as 2 to the power of 24).
However, if you look inside a fractint .MAP file you will notice that all
the numbers are multiples of 4 (0 through 252). This gives you a maximum of
only 262,144 colors (64x64x64). I think this is because the original VGA
spec could only handle this many colors. Perhaps Tim could elaborate on
this. I don't know what fractint does if it finds a number not divisible by
4 - it probably rounds it.

> 2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
colors?

I'm not sure what you're asking for. You don't mean a list of 16,000,000
colors similar to the following do you? <g>
R-0 G-0 B-0   Black
R-1 G-0 B-0   Very, very, very, very dark red
R-1 G-1 B-0   Very, very, very, very dark olive green

Let me know what platform you are using. There are simple programs that let
you type in the 3 numbers and then show the color.
Hope this helps.

Nick
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 22:00:27 +0200

At 14:43 14.10.97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
>>=20
>> I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
>> questions.
>> 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that there are only
>> 256, assuming red=3D1, grn=3D1, blu=3D1 would be the same as red=3D120,=
 grn=3D120,
>> blu=3D120. Otherwise there would seem to be a factorial of colors (256!)
>>=20
>   You should interpret these as intensities. You're mapping the=20
>truecolor, 16.7 million palette (256 cubed, not factorial) to a 256 color=
=20
>palette. 0,0,0, is pure black; 1,1,1, is a very dark grey; 255,255,255 is=
=20
>white.=20

Actually the VGA color register is only 3x6 bits wide, thus allowing for
256K (or 262144) different colors. This means that although you can specify
any RGB value in a range from 0 to 255, only the values which are
multiplies of 8 are meaningful. For instance: An RGB triplet in a Fractint
.map file written as  26 31 24 will be read as 24 24 24. BTW this is why
the "pseudo-grey" maps of Fractint display shades of red, green and blue
alternately.

--
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B            [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 14 Oct 1997 16:17:01 -0400

Hi Ramiro,

>> Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
>> fractint 19.6, for inverting the ifs attractors defined in the
>> fractint ifs files, and rewritting it for fractint formula types and
>> for fractint par files.

  Thanks!  Here are some pars created with the ifs from the Fractint
package.

CRYSTLJ            { ; .                                    t=3D  0:07:38=
=2E57
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Dcrystal_j passes=3D1
  center-mag=3D-4.46741/7.4332/0.212585/1/-75
  params=3D10000/0/-0.174/5.024 float=3Dy decomp=3D256
  colors=3D_`d<51>wwzwwzvvy<123>F00038<75>_`d cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

DRAGONJ            { ; .                                    t=3D  0:10:31=
=2E42
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Ddragon_j passes=3D1
  center-mag=3D0.367001/4.53573/0.1292047/1.0973 params=3D10000/0/0.419/4=

  float=3Dy inside=3D0 decomp=3D256
  colors=3DL0G<4>M0LN0NN0N<2>P0PQ0QR2P<19>zp0yn0wm0<9>kX0iW0hU0fS0eR0<3>`=
L0Z\
  J0YH0XF0VE0UC0TA0<30>F22F22F22F22F22<46>577577677<29>kR7mS6nU6<6>uj1wm0=
w\
  n3<7>yvXyw`yxdzzhzyfzwc<13>s`3rZ0qX0<13>i30h00g00<11>M00K00K01K03K04K06=
<\
  9>L0F cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

FERNJ1             { ; .                                    t=3D  0:21:36=
=2E09
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm formulaname=3Dfer=
n_j
  passes=3D1 center-mag=3D-0.0871612/6.21743/0.2090168/2.26/-33.558/-0.84=
9
  params=3D10000/0/0/7 float=3Dy inside=3D0 decomp=3D256
  colors=3DrZ0<11>cL0aJ0`J0<13>ID2GC3GC3<13>7CG6DH6DH6DI<17>BJUCKUCKVDLVD=
LW<\
  4>MSaNTbPVdRXe<5>aemcgocgo<13>pppqqqppq<51>22C11B00A00A11B22C<41>ffiggj=
i\
  ik<14>wwwxxxxwv<11>yqUypSyoQynNymLzlI<2>ykFyjEyiDyhCxhBxgAxf8xf8<3>wc4v=
c\
  3vb2ua0t`0s_0 cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

FERNJ2             { ; .                                    t=3D  0:18:43=
=2E49
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm formulaname=3Dfer=
n_j
  passes=3D1 center-mag=3D0.265398/5.17793/0.1841772/1.219/-3.304/-3.084
  params=3D10000/0/0/8 float=3Dy inside=3D0 decomp=3D256
  colors=3Dfmb<12>psipsiqsjqtjrtk<11>yyqyyqyyp<11>yxhyxgywfyweyvdyvd<12>x=
sVw\
  rUwrUvqU<56>UMCTMCTLBTLB<27>652542432321321<76>QbQQbQRcRScS<18>ela
  cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

SPIRAL             { ; .                                    t=3D  0:21:53=
=2E49
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Dspiral_j passes=3D1 center-mag=3D0/5/0.1666667
  params=3D100000/0/0/5 float=3Dy maxiter=3D1000 inside=3D0
  colors=3DzQ5<5>zE6<5>dH8`I9ZH9<3>SE7QD6QD6<18>fJMgJNhLP<4>nYZp_`qbbseet=
jh<\
  2>zzsxvmurgurg<4>xnI<2>bmTVmXNm_Flc8lg0kk<11>FhOGhMHhKJgHKgFMfC<13>`L9a=
J\
  9cK9eLAhMB<3>mTHnVJpYH<2>vdByg8yh5yi3<28>XL1VK0UK2<14>0Qc<6>8bcAdcDedHg=
e\
  <7>iqz<4>zyt<7>ylDxj2wiK<3>vc4ua0ub3<3>vhJviNvjPwkR<4>xriytmyto<2>zwu<1=
3\
  >wCM<15>ye3<6>zS5 cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

SWIRL5J            { ; .                                    t=3D  0:23:44=
=2E66
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Dswirl5_j passes=3D1 center-mag=3D0/5/0.1666667
  params=3D100000/0/-0.1/4.927 float=3Dy maxiter=3D1000 inside=3D0
  colors=3DJbQ<3>KfNLhMOiL<11>wt1<12>DVF<14>AB54C5<8>hMB<4>nVJ<3>vdByg8yh=
5yi\
  3<3>ylEymHymI<2>yoPypSyqVyqYyr`<8>zzz<6>SE7<3>LA5<3>000000<12>b0Ee0Ff5I=
<\
  9>xtozzszzs<54>zqU<14>6hz<6>9yz<11>yXa<5>wCM<2>gBGbADWAB<2>884<15>IYPJ_=
R\
  J`RJaQ cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

TRIANGJ            { ; .                                    t=3D  0:07:27=
=2E76
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Dtriangle_j passes=3D1
  center-mag=3D0.522659/1.48188/7.660208/0.8423/-44.353/-1.353
  params=3D10000/0/1/1 float=3Dy maxiter=3D100 inside=3D0 outside=3Dsumm
  invert=3D0.1/0.7/1.3
  colors=3DyqV<10>zzz<6>SE7<3>LA5<3>000000<12>b0Ee0Ff5I<9>xtozzszzs<54>zq=
U<1\
  4>6hz<6>9yz<11>yXa<5>wCM<2>gBGbADWAB<2>884<15>IYPJ_RJ`R<6>LhM<12>wt1<12=
>\
  DVF<14>AB54C5<8>hMB<4>nVJ<3>vdByg8yh5yi3<3>ylEymHymI<3>ypS
  cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

ZIGZAGJ            { ; .                                    t=3D  0:11:41=
=2E41
                     ; Copyright Sylvie Gallet, Oct 11, 1997
                     ; <sylvie [e-mail]>
                     ; t=3Dcalc time using a Pentium 166 at 1600 x 1200
  reset=3D1960 type=3Dformula formulafile=3Difs2frm.frm
  formulaname=3Dzigzag2_j passes=3D1
  center-mag=3D1.08048/3.51532/0.08266667/-1/212.5 params=3D100000/0/1/1
  float=3Dy maxiter=3D100 inside=3D0 decomp=3D256
  colors=3D_21Z00<6>M00K00K01<8>L0BL0CL0C<12>P0PQ0QR2P<6>cKGdMFfOEgRDiTC<=
8>x\
  n0<14>gT0eR0dP0bN0aM0<5>UC0TA0TA0<29>F22F22F22F22F22<46>577577677<29>kR=
7\
  mS6nU6oW5pZ5<14>spUtrWtqV<13>p`5oZ3oY3<21>`31 cyclerange=3D0/255
  }

  Cheers,

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 17:04:15 -0400 (EDT)

Excerpts from mail: 14-Oct-97 Re: (fractint) Color Maps by Leif B.
Kristensen@onlin
> Actually the VGA color register is only 3x6 bits wide, thus allowing for
> 256K (or 262144) different colors. This means that although you can specify
> any RGB value in a range from 0 to 255, only the values which are
> multiplies of 8 are meaningful. For instance: An RGB triplet in a Fractint
> .map file written as  26 31 24 will be read as 24 24 24. BTW this is why
> the "pseudo-grey" maps of Fractint display shades of red, green and blue
> alternately.

Actually, values in multiples of 4 are meaningful.  26 31 24 would be
sent to the VGA as 6 7 6, which is equivalent to giving Fractint 24 28
24.  Fractint (and any other program which translates 24-bit color to 18
bit color) divides each color by 4, removing the two least significant
bits.  The VGA palette registers themselves don't do this; they look at
the bottom 6 bits of the 8 bits sent to their port.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|7|6|5|4|3|2|1|0|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Bits 0 and 1 need to be chopped off before sending it to the VGA.  Of
course, when truecolor is done well, this chopping won't be necessary.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 15:14:21 -0600


I thought this 6bit hack thing was for old VGA cards, not the newer
SVGA cards where you have a palette of 256 out of 2^24 colors.  True
or false?
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 23:45:20 +0200

>Actually, values in multiples of 4 are meaningful.  26 31 24 would be
>sent to the VGA as 6 7 6, which is equivalent to giving Fractint 24 28
>24.  Fractint (and any other program which translates 24-bit color to 18
>bit color) divides each color by 4, removing the two least significant
>bits.  The VGA palette registers themselves don't do this; they look at
>the bottom 6 bits of the 8 bits sent to their port.

Of course, you're right ... got a little mixed-up in the powers of 2.

%-} <-me, cross-eyed & with a red face

--
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B            [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: henry birdseye <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
Date: 14 Oct 1997 17:50:23 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Cynthia Peterson wrote:

> We are looking for programs that create FRACTAL ANIMATIONS.  The search is
> actually to identify companies to approach for a teaming effort to
> integrate fractal animation capabilities into an existing VB/C++ program.

I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
If not I can mail it to you. The basic deal is, you give a start point and
an end point and it generates a long .par file, and a .bat file that makes
the pix. I have made many minutes of this stuff with FAE and love the
program.

It also works to animate Julia values and palettes. Please keep me abreast
of your progress.

-----------------
Henry S. Birdseye
Video Compositing Artist, Fractal Zoomer, Raytracer, Film Collector,
  Techno Head, .net addict

www.mich.com/~ozymand
www.prodcolor.com


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From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 14 Oct 1997 23:06:49 +0200 (EET)




On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Brock Kevin Nambo wrote:
>
> I don't think I would recommend the Javaversion of Fractint, especially
> since uh,.. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, Java didn't
> enjoy the writing of files...

This is only true for applets, not for applications.

>
> The Java docs were confusing to me; when you say "stand-alone applications"
> do you mean like a self-contained program, that doesn't need the java
> runtime? (or whatever that word is...)

AFAIK the applications still need a virtual machine to be running in, but
that virtual machine need not be a browser.

> Java is a programming language, which, which is not supported by any
> computer.  The reasoning behind this (kinda fuzzy, yes) is that since it's
> not native to any computer, they can get any computer to run it, via an
> emulator called the Java "Virtual Machine."  This is a similar concept to a
> language I'm trying to learn (Inform) except Java is much more
> graphic-oriented by virtue of being much younger.  Java makes two kinds of
> programs: applets, which are designed to be used with HTML and web browsers;
> and applications, which run from a Java interpreter compatible withyour
> system.


The origianl poster suggested using native functions. This simply means
that if you want something to run fast in Java, you can call another
library that's written in C or C++ or anything else. But then you lose the
portability which was the reason for choosing Java in the first place, and
Fractint is already compiled to run as a native app. I don't see any gain
from using Java.
As far as Fractint 50 is concerned - who says that Java will still be "in"
by then? :)

Uri



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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits
Date: 14 Oct 1997 15:02:05 -0700


I wrote earlier today:
>Rollo Silver ([e-mail])
> http://www.artvark.com/artvark/
>published an article about this in his news letter,
>Amigdala, a few years ago.  I don't recall the
>author, it might even have been Rollo.

Make that Amygdala and it was Steven Stoft's article.
This according to Robert P. Munafo.

I could look up my copy of the article, but that would involve
looking though files in the REAL 3D WORLD.    >8^O

Jay




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From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 00:09:21 +0200

At 15:14 14.10.97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I thought this 6bit hack thing was for old VGA cards, not the newer
>SVGA cards where you have a palette of 256 out of 2^24 colors.  True
>or false?

This is, of course, a question of hardware versus software. You're right
about the new SVGA cards, they have 'true-color' modes which allow for
24-bit color maps. And they'll put more than 256 colors on the screen
simultaneously, too. You'll find some of these modes in Fractint. What
you'll se, hovewer, when you try one of the >256 color modes, is an
all-blue image. That is because the true-color modes in Fractint, as I
understand it, are not fully implemented. It looks as only the first 256
colors of the mega-palette are displayed on the screen. (Here, I hope for a
more technical explanation from one of the Fractint developers.)

In the 256-color modes, the SVGA cards are still, and I think will be for
the foreseeable future, downward compatible with the ancient standard VGA
color maps, limited to 3x6 bits. This has something to do with low-level
calls in older code, I guess.

--
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B            [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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From: GEDEON PETERI <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 14 Oct 1997 18:23:44 -0400


--------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
> >
> > I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> > questions.
>
  There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6
package available at Spanky's.
http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html
    There is also "Mapmaker" with more features, including the very
useful ability to save maps as csv files which can then be viewed,
graphed, and manipulated in Excel.  Mapmaker is available from its
author, Jack Orman at http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html
    Gedeon Peteri.


--------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
>
> I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> questions.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
  There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6 package
available at Spanky's. <A HREF="http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html">http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html</A>
<BR>    There is also "Mapmaker" with more features, including
the very useful ability to save maps as csv files which can then be viewed,
graphed, and manipulated in Excel.  Mapmaker is available from its
author, Jack Orman at <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html">http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html</A>
<BR>    Gedeon Peteri.
<BR> </HTML>

--------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649--


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 14 Oct 1997 20:13:41 -0400

Why not Java?  I sure hope this wasn't a serious question. :)

Two reasons.

(1) Most of FractInt's code is C already.  When I suggested a while back to
folks who actually work on FractInt that porting it to C++ might not be a
bad idea, it was pointed out to me in a hurry how big a task that would be.
 Moving FractInt to Java would be much, much more work.

(2) Speed.  Java is Slow As Mud.  Sure, if you get a really fast computer,
Java runs OK for a lot of stuff.  But fractals are not like a lot of stuff;
they actually require gobs of performance and generally benefit from
optimized assembly code.  Sure, we may have computers fast enough to run a
Java fractal generator at a tolerable speed... and an assembly-optimized
fractal generator will run rings around it on the same computer.

 -    Then again, there is the JIT (Just-in-Time) compiler, but I don't know
 - if it has any relevancy to applications.

Sure it does, it's just not enough.  Even compiler-optimized C or C++ code
isn't fast enough, for some things.

 - I'm sure you guys will be able to figure it all out by the 50th release ;).

I'd wager by the 50th release, Java will be one of those long-forgotten
languages. :)

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
Date: 14 Oct 1997 20:10:05 -0400

Mrvn,

 - On an MC68060 its 2 cycles for a 32 Bit int multiply (and the cpu can
 - put that into a pipeline and do other stuff inbetween) and more for
 - fpu. I think even with 64 Bit ints its faster than fpu. This is also
 - true for other cpu's.

Oh sure, you're absolutely right here.  No argument.  However, the
differences are becoming much smaller.  My feeling is it's only the
assembly code (the x86 assembly code) where the differences, to one side or
the other, will be major.  Somehow I don't see a compiler effectively
optimizing the integer math.

 - I vote against removeing the int code, but for porting it to 32 bit and 64
 - bit.

If it were just a matter of adapting some C code, this wouldn't be the
issue.  The problem is, all that wondrous integer math code is in *assembly*.

 - you can do x^2 and y^2 at the same time with mmx.

Only with 16-bit math.  Virtually useless for the few zooms you get out of
it, not worth the effort of writing it, to me.

 - You can also emulate a 32/64 Bit multiply with a few four 16x16 multiply
 - cycles.

...versus two-cycle back-to-back 64x64 multiplies on the FPU...

 - I think it won't be much slower and you also have more registers to store
 - the numbers and don't need to write to memory.

You don't have more registers with MMX (you have the same eight registers
as you do with the FPU) and with the FPU you don't need to write to memory,
either.  JuliaSaver's core Mandelbrot/Julia calculation routine runs
entirely out of FPU registers.

 - [re: IMUL not pairable on Pentium]
 - Thats a intel problem and other cpu's should also be considered.

Sure that's an Intel problem.  Most use of FractInt is on x86 processors,
and that's what the assembly is written for.  Most x86 processors in use
are Intel, thus it makes sense to optimize for Intel flavors of x86 first.
Fortunately, optimizing for Intel flavors generally speeds things up on
other x86 processors as well, as they use similar (but not identical)
techniques to speed up execution of x86 instructions.

 - Why not use a library that does this? There are libraries for n Bit
 - interger operations out there which can be utilised.

Effectively killing your speed.  The problem here is not arbitrary
precision--that's already handled pretty well.  The problem is the 32-bit
integer code that is in assembly, and the only reason it's fast is because
it's all directly inlined and explicit.  Trying to use some library would
make the performance worse than C code that uses the FPU!  Unless you're
hand-optimizing with assembly code, the differences between integer code
and FPU code are unlikely to be significant enough to warrant keeping the
code in there.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 14 Oct 1997 20:10:41 -0400

Mrvn,

 - If the aim is to have fractint running on any computer then C is the
 - way to go and C is fast enough. Also it's easy to have inline asm for
 - various cpu's.

I'd be thrilled to see a Mac port of FractInt--over on another mailing list
(MetaCreations' KPT List) there has been quite a discussion about fractal
software for Macs, and several people have advocated *buying* a software PC
emulator just to run FractInt!  There is interest.  Too bad I don't know
PPC assembly.  (And too bad my 68K knowledge is virtually useless now.)

 - With todays compilers for C its also hardly neccessary to write inline
 - asm for more then the bare core of the formula (if even).

Yep, only simple fractal types will really benefit from hand-optimizing,
like the M-set.

 - On a PPC for example the iner loop of a Mandelbrod Fractal can be written
 - in 6 asm lines

Six?!?  Wow!  I'd like to see that (along with an explanation since I'm not
PPC fluent).

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 14 Oct 1997 19:57:57 -0500

Thanks to everybody who responded with information about color maps.
Now I think I promised another ABSOLUTELY FREE M.L.Newsted Jr. Fractal!

Well, here it is!

Sunglasses (xaxis) { ; Merle L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0,
    a = pixel,
    b = pixel + 1,
    c = pixel * 2:

    z = a*z*z + b*z + c ;What? No bailout test!!!
    }

Anybody recognize the mutated formula?
Dis ids veddy veddy sceddy...

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 00:04:10 -0500



Damien M. Jones wrote:

> Why not Java?  I sure hope this wasn't a serious question. :)

Oy vey! What a can of worms I opened up with this one.  I never expected so many
passionate responses about exactly why Java won't work.

My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:

1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe (despite the claim in the
book Not Just Java, which is published by - who else? - Sun Microsystems, that
"this book contains my own views and conclusions" and is not an official statement
of policy by Sun).
2: Java is poised to become the general-purpose programming language of the future
(see 1).

I also expected that when Java became a regular programming language, there would
be optimizing compilers and all the other stuff that now comes with C++
development tools.  Hence the release 50 deadline... :|

Perhaps I should have asked the question, "What happens when C goes out of
style?"  and given my answer, "Move to Java."  But then everyone would write in,
"C probably won't die, and even if it does, the programmers could keep their C
compilers."

Anyone care to comment on that one? Or did I get the general feeling of
programmers everywherre right?

Bye for now, and remember, "Assume makes a... well... ARSE (can I say that here?
and if I can't, please forgive me this once, as that's how I'm feeling now :( )
out of you and me."

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store?! ;)"
-Me

 Justin Kolodziej is  [e-mail]




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From: Scott Snyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
Date: 15 Oct 1997 00:08:41 -0600

At 17:50 14-10-97 -0400, you wrote:

>I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
>Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
>

Boy, I couldn't find it.  Would you mind posting the appropriate URL?

Thanks.



Everywhere is within running distance....if you have the time.

        Scott Snyder -- [e-mail]  -- Littleton, CO

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From: Peter Otterstaetter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
Date: 15 Oct 1997 08:54:14 +0000

> Date:          Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:08:41 -0600
> To:            [e-mail]
> From:          Scott Snyder <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> >I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
> >Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
> >
>
> Boy, I couldn't find it.  Would you mind posting the appropriate URL?
>

http://spanky.triumf.ca/pub/fractals/programs/IBMPC/FAE210B.ZIP

hope this helps!

Peter
Peter Otterstaetter
BASF Aktiengesellschaft
Zentralbereich Informatik
ZXA/U Anwendungsentwicklung
D-67056 Ludwigshafen
E-mail: [e-mail]
All things come to those who wait. They come, but often come too late.
    From Lady Mary M. Curie: Tout Vient a Qui Sait Attendre (1890)

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 15 Oct 1997 09:45:46 BST

80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.

Hoppy

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From: [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:47:56 GMT

Op 14 Oct 97 om 19:57 schreef [e-mail] over:
"(fractint) Colors!"

> Thanks to everybody who responded with information about color maps.
> Now I think I promised another ABSOLUTELY FREE M.L.Newsted Jr.
> Fractal!
>
> Well, here it is!

The formula is there, where is the PAR?

Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
 _____________________________________

 Internet:    [e-mail]
 CompuServe:  100142,604
 _____________________________________


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From: [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: (Fwd) (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:39:31 GMT

questions. 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that
there are only 256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as
red=120, grn=120, blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a
factorial of colors (256!)

256*256*256 is the right answer. And RGB(1,1,1) is almost black, and
RGB(120,120,120) is the gray. The numbers are the clarity.

2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
colors?

You can make it yourself? There is this easy list.
Black =(0,0,0), Grey=(127,127,127), white = (256,256,256)
Red=(256,0,0), blue green
Yellow = Blue and green, etc.


Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
 _____________________________________

 Internet:    [e-mail]
 CompuServe:  100142,604
 _____________________________________


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From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 08:54:30 -0500

I didn't think you neede a par file. Why not add it to a .frm file?
I mean really, it's a M.L.Newsted Jr. Fractal!! It probably deserves its
very own private .frm suite !

I'll send a par out when I get home (about 9 hours from now).
 /////
 0 0
( ? )
 <>

>
>The formula is there, where is the PAR?
>
>Groetjes,
>    Wim de Lange
> _____________________________________
>
> Internet:    [e-mail]
> CompuServe:  100142,604
> _____________________________________
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
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>Administrator:  [e-mail]
>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benno Schmid" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 17:37:01 +100

Evin Robertson wrote:
> Excerpts from mail: 14-Oct-97 Re: (fractint) Color Maps by Leif B.
> Kristensen@onlin
> > Actually the VGA color register is only 3x6 bits wide, thus allowing for
> > 256K (or 262144) different colors. This means that although you can specify
> > any RGB value in a range from 0 to 255, only the values which are
> > multiplies of 8 are meaningful. For instance: An RGB triplet in a Fractint
> > .map file written as  26 31 24 will be read as 24 24 24. BTW this is why
> > the "pseudo-grey" maps of Fractint display shades of red, green and blue
> > alternately.
>
> Actually, values in multiples of 4 are meaningful.  26 31 24 would be
> sent to the VGA as 6 7 6, which is equivalent to giving Fractint 24 28
> 24.  Fractint (and any other program which translates 24-bit color to 18
> bit color) divides each color by 4, removing the two least significant
> bits.  The VGA palette registers themselves don't do this; they look at
> the bottom 6 bits of the 8 bits sent to their port.
>
So only multiplies of 4 would be meaningful to VGA cards and
increasing and decreasing by values of one would in most cases do
nothing?
When I take a palette consisting of single gray (e.g. 31 31 31) and
inrease or decrease each value by one, I can always see a difference,
even in standard VGA mode, between (31 31 31) and say (31 30 31).
How could that happen with cropping, or is it because I have a SVGA
card?

Benno Schmid

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:17:18 -0500



Benno Schmid wrote:

> So only multiplies of 4 would be meaningful to VGA cards and
> increasing and decreasing by values of one would in most cases do
> nothing?
> When I take a palette consisting of single gray (e.g. 31 31 31) and
> inrease or decrease each value by one, I can always see a difference,
> even in standard VGA mode, between (31 31 31) and say (31 30 31).
> How could that happen with cropping, or is it because I have a SVGA
> card?
>
> Benno Schmid
>

Actually, Fractint's palette editor only lists values from 0 to 63, so when you
increase a value in Fractint, it's like increasing the actual RGB component of the
color by 4.  The translation is automatic, resulting in any increase or decrease in
color values in Fractint having meaning to the VGA adapter.  So, it has nothing to
do with your SVGA card and everything to do wit Fractint's design.  Hope this
doesn't confuse you TOO much...

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS emulator
available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
-Me


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From: Ramiro Perez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:28:11 +0500 (GMT)

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Sylvie Gallet wrote:

> Hi Ramiro,
>
> >> Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
> >> fractint par files.
>
>   Thanks!  Here are some pars created with the ifs from the Fractint
> package.

Hi Silvie..
Thanks for the pars, they are beautiful!, especially the Fern!. I hope
that this little utility helps you to create more fractal artwork like
these ones..
By the way, anyone knows on where I can find IFS files?, I search for
them (in altavista and spanky!), but I found no one (save the old ones
that come in fdesign and vifs).


Ramiro Perez
[e-mail]



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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 09:32:35 -0700


Hi Nuke,

I tried your formula with this par file.  I get the sunglasses on their
side.
So I rotate it 90 degrees (see Sunglasses-r  below) and the screen goes
to blue. In fact Sunglasses  goes to blue upon any zoom!  What gives?

Everyone, please post working par files with your formulae so we can
see what your settings are.

Thanks,

Jay
frm:Sunglasses (xaxis) { ; Merle L. Newsted Jr.
     z = 0,
     a = pixel,
     b = pixel + 1,
     c = pixel * 2:

     z = a*z*z + b*z + c ;What? No bailout test!!!
     }

Sunglasses              {
  reset=1960
  type=formula formulafile=Nuke.par formulaname=Sunglasses
  center-mag=-0.5/6e-008/0.6666667 params=0/0
}
Sunglasses-r       { ; rotate 90 degrees
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nuke.par formulaname=sunglasses
  center-mag=-0.5/6e-008/0.6666667/1/-90
}



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:43:58 -0400

Justin,

 - Oy vey! What a can of worms I opened up with this one.  I never expected
 - so many passionate responses about exactly why Java won't work.

That's okay, you wouldn't have known unless you asked.

 - My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:
 -
 - 1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe

Yeah, well, Sun has a vested interest in the C falling by the wayside, so
that Java can reign supreme.  This makes their view of C a little iffy.
But there's a *lot* of C code, and C is very much part of UNIX; this and a
lot of other factors will keep C alive for a long, long time.  (Crud, even
COBOL programmers are in high demand these days... for a couple of years,
anyway.  So old languages don't die completely.)

 - 2: Java is poised to become the general-purpose programming language of
 - the future

Well, Java has some real hurdles to overcome.  One is that it isn't managed
by an international standards body, which means Sun can change the Java
spec on a whim.  They also have not released the details of their
"compatibility testing", AFAIK.  Now, this doesn't mean Sun *will* act
improperly, just that if they *do*, it will have major results.

Another problem is that Java programs are very difficult to get running on
different platforms, even without Microsoft's little power play.  Folks
who've tried writing applications with Java have had all sorts of headaches
with the apps not running right on different machines.  The "write once,
run anywhere" hype is, for the moment, just that--hype.

 - I also expected that when Java became a regular programming language, there
 - would be optimizing compilers and all the other stuff that now comes with
 - C++ development tools.

As Java matures, visual environments appear and so do "optimizing"
compilers.  However, Java doesn't compile to native code, it compiles to
"bytecodes" which can be executed on any machine with the appropriate Java
VM.  This means that no matter how "optimized" the byte code sequence is,
it must undergo a further interpretation or JIT-compile process before it
is actually executed on the underlying processor.  This sort of
double-translation is very difficult to effectively optimize as well as if
it were optimized directly to machine code in the first place.

 - Perhaps I should have asked the question, "What happens when C goes out of
 - style?"  and given my answer, "Move to Java."

This is indeed a much better question.  Yes, this is the one you should
have asked. :)

 - But then everyone would write in, "C probably won't die, and even if it
 - does, the programmers could keep their C compilers."

I think C will be around at least as long as Java. :)  C++ offers many of
the same features as Java (although Java does some of them more elegantly).
 The advantages to C++ over Java are that (a) C++ tools are more mature;
(b) C++ is easy for C programmers to pick up; (c) C++ is compiled to native
code, not generic byte codes (so it's much faster).  None of these are
insurmountable advantages for Java, but until they're at least addressed, I
don't see Java dislodging C++ for application development.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:29:54 -0400

Hoppy,

 - 80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
 - access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.

Not quite.  It's very easy to store 80-bit real numbers in memory.  It's a
limitation of MS Visual C++ that it doesn't support the long double format,
but the processor certainly does and has no problem giving the "user"
access to them.

Microsoft's rationale for not supporting long doubles is that VC++ (with
the appropriate expansions) can be used to compile code for more than just
x86, and that other processors do not support Intel's 80-bit format.
Sounds like an asinine reason to me, but that's what they say.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 15 Oct 1997 09:49:17 -0700


Hoppy wrote:
>80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
>access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.
This seems to be true for Microsoft compilers, but is incorrect in general.
Borland C++ compilers have 'long double' which gives you (and
I copy this from their help screen)

 Type          ? Length  ? Range
---------------+---------+---------------------------------------
 float         ? 32 bits ?   3.4 * (10**-38) to 3.4 * (10**+38)
 double        ? 64 bits ?  1.7 * (10**-308) to 1.7 * (10**+308)
 long double   ? 80 bits ? 3.4 * (10**-4932) to 1.1 * (10**+4932)


And you can print out the results and get about 19 significant digits.


Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:04:38 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:
>
> 1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe  [...]

Languages live longer than many people would like to believe...
FORTRAN is still alive as FORTRAN 90 and it was originally conceieved
to be nothing more than a glorified translator of formulas into
assembly code (FORTRAN = FORmula TRANslator).  LISP was also invented
around the same time as FORTRAN (1950s) and is still alive and
kicking as embodied in the Common LISP standard.  C was invented in
the middle/late 70s (1978?) and is alive and kicking as C++.

Designers of new languages always like to paint the situation as one
of near-death for competing languages and toot their own horns quite
loudly about how their new language is better than all existing
languages.  Java has a niche and a role to play in network-based apps
and has appeal for embedded network devices and some other things.  I
seriously doubt that Java will be displacing C/C++/FORTRAN/LISP out of
its strongholds any time soon.  Instead, it will be used where it
makes more sense to use Java than C/C++.  Java is a new language for
new applications of programming, not a language that will replace
other languages.  Also, Java has been incredibly overhyped considering
that its birthplace is the Mother of All Hype -- the web.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 10:23:23 -0700


Damien wrote:

>I think C will be around at least as long as Java. :)  C++ offers many of
>the same features as Java (although Java does some of them more
elegantly).
> The advantages to C++ over Java are that (a) C++ tools are more mature;
>(b) C++ is easy for C programmers to pick up; (c) C++ is compiled to
native
>code, not generic byte codes (so it's much faster).  None of these are
>insurmountable advantages for Java, but until they're at least addressed,
I
>don't see Java dislodging C++ for application development.


The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
complex in Java.   Have you tried to write a roots of a complex
quartic polynomial in real only arithmetic.  It is a mess.
While we like to talk of assembly optimization, there are still the
experimental fractal projects some of us do, and these are easiest
done in a smart language.

Another $.03

Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 12:25:54 -0500

Hey Jay,

I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are
describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula
the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up"
once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right
button).

I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do
that in the future.

Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file, or is
there an easy way of using a par file to view an image. So far I've had
to load the .frm and the .par to view the fractal .par. Why not just run
the fractal from formula and save the image you like or don't like (of
course with Nuker fractals "not-like" is impossible-right?).

Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.
Sylvie?

Thanks,
Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 11:44:15 -0600


Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free
stuff :), then look at <URL: http://www.gr.com> and search for
"poster" on their site.  If you fill out their little survey, they
will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts
it all into perspective.

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
> complex in Java.

Odd, I would have thought it would be included, but you're right, its
not on the class hierarchy on the poster.  I guess Sun doesn't
consider complex numbers to be important for the target audience of
Java -- network based applications.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Buy Tim's book.... CHEAP!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 12:16:13 -0600

<URL: http://www.hamiltonbook.com/titles/9/6/2/962481.html>
    FRACTALS FOR WINDOWS. By Tim Wegner, et al.
     Item # 962481 Pub at $ 34.95 Your Cost $ 5.95

     Experience a hands-on fractal exploration using the bundled
     Winfract program to generate, manipulate, edit, color-cycle and
     save over 75 fractals, including projecting them into three
     dimensions. Includes a 3.5" disk. Paperbound Illus., some color.
     358 pages Waite Group
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:04:35 -0400

Ramiro Perez wrote:

>By the way, anyone knows on where I can find IFS files?, I search for
>them (in altavista and spanky!), but I found no one (save the old ones
>that come in fdesign and vifs).

Try these:
<http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spot/flame.html>
<http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/eyqchen/ifsworld/ifsworld.html>

Nick


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
Date: 15 Oct 1997 13:14:10 -0600


There is also a collection of IFS files in the fracxtra ZIP file
available on Spanky.

I think there is also an IFS editor that is much more intuitive than
fractint in constructing interesting IFS par files.  I can't remember
the name of it, but I think it also is on Spanky.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 16:09:58 -0400

Hi Nuke,

>> Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
>> Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.
>> Sylvie?

  Though the tool I used (Fractint) is free, the pars I posted yesterday
are my creations (coordinates, coloring schemes, palettes...) and I don't=

put them in the public domain.

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 16:25:28 -0400

Nuke,

 - Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file,

It is easier to start with a PAR file, particularly if your formula
requires good values for p1, p2, or p3, or a particular location.  With a
PAR, you can set these parameters up to good "default" settings, and let
people play from there.

 - Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
 - Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.

FractInt is free, sure.  But the images that you produce with it are
*yours*.  The ones I make are *mine*.  They have a copyright simply by
being created, and if someone wants to retain that copyright, they're
perfectly entitled to.  So while FractInt may be free, do NOT assume that
every image you see produced with FractInt is also free.  Many are not.

Think of it this way.  If you created a piece of artwork with Adobe
Photoshop, does that mean Adobe owns the art?  Of course not.  Now let's
say you got Photoshop free with your flatbed scanner.  Does that mean
artwork you produce with it is now free, too?  Of course not.  The
copyright or distribution rights of the tool used have little bearing on
whether what is produced is freely distributable or not.

I hope this clears things up.  Sylvie, didn't mean to butt in here (I know
you can speak for yourself), but as someone who also copyrights their art,
I felt compelled to speak. :)

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 14:32:38 -0600


Everything that is posted by anyone, anywhere on the network has an
implicit copyright on it by the author.  There is no need to
explicitly state copyright anymore in order to have a copyright status
on an author's work.  Every email message, news article, web page,
etc. already has the author's copyright on it.  You have to explicitly
state that you are putting something in the public domain in order for
it to be in the public domain (at least for works created since the
last revision of the copyright act/treaties in the 80s).

Fractint is freely available, but unless the source code states that
it is public domain, it is still copyrighted by the authors.  Just
because something is copyrighted doesn't mean you have to pay for
using it.  However, if someone started taking copies of fractint and
tried to sell it as their own, that would be a blatant violation of
the copyright and the Stone Soup Group could get a court injunction to
prevent such a person from selling it.

There is a copyright FAQ that discusses all of these issues, if you're
interested in the gory details.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:48:17 -0500



Jay Hill wrote:

>
>
> The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
> complex in Java.

Wait a minute! I don't remember C++ having complex as a type, either.  The
online docs for Microsoft Visual C++ 4.0 say something about a Fortran complex
type, and simlating it in C++, and something about a complex function in Excel
worksheets, but nothing about an actual complex class.Could you explain
exactly what you mean by this?

Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision decimals but
leave out complex numbers.  What was Sun thinking??????????????????  Of
course, this means that you would have to write your own class for complex
numbers.  I tried it in C++ and the results were slow.  I'm sure if you tried
it in Java, the results would be SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! <vbg>

Justin

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS
or Windows emulator available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
-Me




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:53:42 -0500



Rich Thomson wrote:

> Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free
> stuff :), then look at <URL: http://www.gr.com> and search for
> "poster" on their site.  If you fill out their little survey, they
> will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts
> it all into perspective.

Sorry, I checked it out, and one of the results was a page saying that "the free
Java posterpromotion has ended." :(

Justin

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS
or Windows emulator available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
-Me



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 14:00:07 -0700


Nuke replied:
>Hey Jay,
>I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are
>describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula
>the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up"
>once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right
>button).
>I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do
>that in the future.

OK, Now it works without changing anything?!?!?!?  That is your frm
which I couldn't get to work after the initial view.  Other times, this was
because some parameter of setting was not set right, like float=y.
There are so many of these it is no easy to guess what you had
when you were looking at it and zooming without difficulty.

You see the glasses on its side?  Rotate by hitting PGUP, CTRL'+' or
'-' several times.  I did that and got solid blue.  At that point I hit B
and
save to the par file.   That was the -r version.  But then when I read it
in,
I still got solid blue.  The only difference between the two pars is
the rotation!!!!  Anyone find this happening????  And then go away?!?!?!?!


Thanks

Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benno Schmid" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 22:39:55 +100

 Justin Kolodziej wrote:
>
> Actually, Fractint's palette editor only lists values from 0 to 63, so when you
> increase a value in Fractint, it's like increasing the actual RGB component of the
> color by 4.  The translation is automatic, resulting in any increase or decrease in
> color values in Fractint having meaning to the VGA adapter.  So, it has nothing to
> do with your SVGA card and everything to do wit Fractint's design.
I really was stupid when I wrote this, only looked at the +/- one
change and forgot about the maximum of 63.
>  Hope this doesn't confuse you TOO much...
I think 64*4=256 is something I might probably understand...

Benno Schmid

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:12:03 -0600


I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4"
business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based
systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file
colormap.  So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with
6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full
0-255 range.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 17:39:39 -0400 (EDT)

   Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.
   At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in
searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to
be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a
rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather
fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable,
after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling
it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?


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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:30:23 -0700


ijk wrote:

>copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.

Don't get me started!

If you look in the archive of this list or the fractal art list, you will
see a post of mine where I remark about par files can only
have 2000 max images.

I created giant files with every midget through period 16 (nearly
65000) and many thousands more through period 64. I viewed
many of these with Fractint which draws them at a pace of a
second or each.  It can get hypnotic.  Anyway, I could post them
and copyright the whole lot!  It is stupid, I agree.  As for copyrighting
formula - the Mset equation was published in copyright
articles by Mandelbrot himself. So there we are.

I do respect work of others, as anyone who reads my
publications will see,  but some of the fractal artists seem
to get too caught up in it, it seems to me.

My $.03 worth.  Oh my, you got me started.  :-)

Jay



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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 15 Oct 1997 15:30:33 -0700


Justin wrote,

>Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision
>decimals but leave out complex numbers.   What was Sun
>thinking??????????????????  Of course, this means that you
>would have to write your own class for complex numbers.
>I tried it in C++ and the results were slow.

C++ complex classes are mostly written as inline functions, and so
are not so slow. I get within a factor of two of unrolled loops in C.

Actually, Java won't let you because it doesn't allow operator
overloading.  I was convinced this was wisdom in action when
someone explained to me that all this was to keep the language
simple. No overloading and no complex.  But NOWWWW! you
remind me that they have arbitrary precision decimals which is
certainly not simple!!  Good grief!

Back to more on topic, we can look for Fractint to move to a
windowing environment someday. Presumably that would be
C++ although not necessarily.  The other choices for a window
program are Delphi, C, Java and VBasic (any others?).  None
of these have complex.  I push for complex type because we
will likely have the ablility to extend with addon functionality
(special test functions) written in C++ or asm.  These are easiest
done with classes.  One can even wrap complex extended
precision in classes.

I first used these in me DEEPZOOM program 4 years ago.
The original is still posted at Spanky! and at my web page,
see below.  If you look carefully at this old program you will
see I used _exact_ tests for points in the period 1, 2, 3, and 4
components.  That is the big cardioid, the circle, the top and
bottom bud (-0.123 +- 0.74i), the little cardioid at -1.75, the
cardioids at -1.94 and (-0.156+-1.032i), and buds at -1.31,
(0.28 +-  0.53i).  These involved some not too simple complex
arithmetic which would have been a royal pain done in C.
If any of you recall my original posting about this program, I had
converted an existing program to extended precision over
night.  Someone had complained that an extended precision
Mandelbrot plotter had been spotted but costs $80.  I replied
the next day with one for free.  If I had to do it in C or asm
I'd want a lot more time....  I'd still be working on it.

I vote for C++.  And since Microsoft has no long double, I'd
leave it out.


Jay

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825
main(){int f,g,h=0;float a,b,c,d,e;for(;h<3920;putchar("^/-,;<:lnb/bh`\
r/ylqbAmmhI/S/x`K\013"[++h>3840&&g<25?31-g:g>79?31:f]^1))if(!(f=(8*(c=(
d=(g=1+h%80)/31.-2)*d+(e=.047*(h/80-24))*e)-3)*c+d<3/32.?24:16*(1+2*d+c
)<1?30:0))for(a=d,b=c=0;(b=2*b*c+e)*b+(c=a)*a<=4&&++f<26;a=d-b*b+c*c);}



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 16:42:48 -0600


I think lots of people here are confusing copyright with patents,
trademarks and other so-called "intellectual property" restrictions.

Yes, Mandelbrot published the formula in a copyrighted work, but that
doesn't mean that I am infringing Mandelbrot's copyright when I write z
:= z^2 + c.  Before you go and get all bent out of shape about
copyright, please take the time to understand what copyright IS and
what it ISN'T.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 17:53:33 -0400

At 03:12 PM 10/15/97 -0600,  Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>  wrote:

>I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4"
>business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based
>systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file
>colormap.  So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with
>6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full
>0-255 range.

But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I
specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round
it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color? Or does it truncate it to
28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file
as 31,63,126?

Nick
[e-mail]


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From: Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 18:57:05 -0400 (EDT)

Excerpts from mail: 15-Oct-97 (fractint) Copyright law by Ian J
[e-mail].e
>    Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
> everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
> exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
> perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
> a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
> copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.
>    At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in
> searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to
> be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a
> rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather
> fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable,
> after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling
> it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
> rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
> how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
> image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?

You can copyright just about anything.  Of course, if someone can
reproduce your image using "clean room" techniques, they can use the
image without your permission.

For example, let's say someone copyrights their formula for a fractal.
You just happen to stumble upon the same fractal by playing with
formulae.  You can also copyright the same fractal.  The same thing with
zooms.

However, someone could patent their formula or zoom, and then even when
someone else finds it, they are bound by the original patent.  If you
can patent the genes in my body, you can also patent the numbers of the
mandelbrot set.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 00:59:36 +0200 (EET)




On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Ian J Kaplan wrote:

> it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
> rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
> how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
> image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?

I recall seeing aninterview with a fractal artist who called himself a
fractographer.  He likened fractal art to photography, saying that if you
put 20 people (or any number ) to take a picture of the same building,
most would be fine, a couple of photos would be really good, and may be
one or two would be art.  Fractal art, he argued, was similar, in fact,
the fractal universe might be considered by some to be infinitely larger.
Furthermore, when you watch fractal art, you come to note the emergence of
style. This has more bearing to the question of art than to the question
of copyright.

Uri



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 16:59:39 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)  writes:
> But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I
> specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round
> it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color?

<shrug> Tim will have to answer that one, or perhaps someone who is
more familiar with the fractint source code.

> Or does it truncate it to
> 28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file
> as 31,63,126?

If it messes up the colormap when writing the color table in the GIF
file (i.e. VGA-izes it), then I would consider that a bug because its
not storing the colors as specified.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) about Sunglasses and Int math.
Date: 15 Oct 1997 18:58:02 -0400

        Bonsoir.

I have tried the sunglasses formula. Very stranges (an nice)
effect with Decomposition option.

Sunglasses_integer { ; "Hello, fractal word !"
                     ; Thierry Boudet [e-mail]
                     ; created Oct 16, 1997 in Toulouse
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=pas_glop.frm
  formulaname=Sunglasses passes=1
  center-mag=3.665e-006/-8.65e-007/0.6666663 decomp=8
  video=F5
  }

        Best regards from Toulouse, France.

        Thierry Boudet.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 20:47:54 -0400

Ian,

Let me first state that I'm not a lawyer.  I am not qualified to give legal
advice.  And all too often, what makes sense to real people doesn't
necessarily line up with the way laws are written.

 - That is, there exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by
 - anyone (except perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only
 - discovered inside a mathematical construct.

I would think that this is just one of those grey areas that we'd all just
as soon would go away. :-)  I look at it this way: when I make a fractal
image, I own that image.  The image is composed of the shape and coloring
that I have chosen, and perhaps the actual formula used as well.  AFAIK,
though, US copyright law doesn't let you copyright mathematical expressions
or formulae, which would rule out the use of owning the base fractal shape
itself.  This leaves you with the particular artist's choice of shape,
location, and color.  Duplicate these exactly, and there is little trouble
in proving the image is copied.

Where it gets a little more problematic is when someone changes your image
somewhat and tries to pass it off as their own.  Maybe they zoom a little
bit, in or out, or they change the colors.  This falls into the area of
"derivative works", and would also be a copyright violation.  However, if
you zoom far enough into someone else's copyrighted image that the features
are no longer recognizable as a detail from the original image, it would be
harder to prove that it is a derivative work.  In short, the more work put
into it, the more likely you can establish that it is your own work--in the
same way that musicians can be inspired by other musicians, and produce
similar (but not identical) music.  I think drawing the line between
infringement and inspiration will very difficult.  Some things are
obviously one or the other, but I'm pretty sure there will be cases where
the difference is not so clear-cut.

These copyright questions are not academic.  Within the past few days I had
someone copy an image from one of my web pages and use it in their own web
page, without credit.  Only the colors were different (and only a hue shift
at that).  In this particular case, I think the person was simply unaware
of the copyright infringement they were doing, but it illustrates the need
to inform people about what is and is not proper.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 15 Oct 1997 21:00:49 -0400 (EDT)

<<   There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
 color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6
 package available at Spanky's.
 http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html >>

<<I also have a Windows color map utility called "Makemap" which has been
available at the Compuserve Fractint site (graphdev) since 1994 and at my web
site (http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001). Its free, of course.
Ron Barnett >>

Woops! I just went and checked out the Fracxtr6 package that Dan Goldwater
put together. The Makemap in the package is mine <g>. By the way Fracxtr6 is
a great compilation of lots of stuff that anyone starting with Fractint
should have.
Ron Barnett

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: Fractint and Java
Date: 15 Oct 1997 21:08:13 -0700

Thore Berntsen wrote:
>
> To those of You who are discussing Java :
>
> There is a very nice Fractint utillity called Filmer written in Java by
> David Mansfield at :
>
>  http://ariel.cobite.com/~julian/filmer/
>
>  You will even find the source of the program at thos site!
>
>
> Hi Thore
>
I've been trying this URL for three days with no luck, mainly to see
Java source code for a Fractint utility. Can you or anyone else tell me
what this thing does (it's a stand-alone application, right, not an
applet?) and where else I might be able to find it.

                    Thanks,
                    Peter

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jon Noring <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 19:13:45 -0700 (PDT)

Sunspot activity caused [e-mail] (Ian J. Kaplan) to utter:

>   Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
>everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
>exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
>perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
>a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
>copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.

I don't feel qualified to give a definitive answer (if there is one) but as
an electronic book publisher, an observer of the alt.religion.scientology
copyright legal battles, etc., I've learned a little about copyright law,
both U.S. and international (e.g., Berne).  But note, IANAL.

To summarize, current philosophy regarding copyright is that when a person
*fixes* in a tangible medium any artistic, literary, or musical work, it
becomes copyrighted automatically -- it is born copyrighted.  The exception to
this is if the person specifically gives the work to the Public Domain, or
that the created work is in essence a whole copy of another copyrighted work.
Note that ideas, databases (though this may change), and processes cannot be
copyrighted -- it is only the tangible expression of those things which are
copyrighted (e.g., the data in a phone book is Public Domain, but wholesale
photocopying of pages from a phone book in excess of Fair Use allowance is a
violation of copyright).

In the case of fractal art, it can get a little fuzzy because of what
constitutes a "copy".  For example, if I take a Fractint parameter file (a
type of "process"?) and duplicate the image, but I alter the color map, is it
a new work, or is it a copy of an existing work (say in excess of Fair Use
allowance)?  Maybe there are legal precedents where the courts have figured
this out, maybe in related cases, but I bet for fractal art it has not been
tested to the point where courts have given precedent-setting decisions.  If
it has we'd be posting that information here.

I would hope that others here who have a better handle of the copyright of
Fractint-derived fractal images can post their thoughts here.  I do recognize
that the Fractint community may have come to a consensus, but note that until
the courts rule definitively, a consensus means nothing legally.

Jon Noring

_____________________________________________________________________________
 OmniMedia Digital Publishing | E-Books: http://www.awa.com/library/omnimedia
 9671 S. 1600 West St.        | Digital/Fractal Art: (coming soon!)
 South Jordan, UT 84095       |
 801-253-4037                 | E-mail: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: 15 Oct 1997 21:44:38 -0500

Shooooo WEE!!!!
I didn't mean to get such a fuss started. The main reason I asked about
copyrights was to avoid infringement or just plain ol' bad edicate.
There was a par file put out the other day, I can't remember who just
now, but it had a beautiful (really , hats off) par called Vivid. I saved
the color map so I could use it on one of my fractals when I stopped and
thought "Maybe this guy worked on this map?" and I wouldn't want to steal
it! So, I ask my question.

Is it ok to use some ones .map on my fractal? Should I make sure to give
credit? If these are foolish questions please forgive me. But, I am not
an artist, just an amateur math-guy.

Thanks to everyone who put in a answer.
A bonus Nuker Fractal WITH the par will be coming!!!
Just see if you can stop me! HA HA HA HA HA !!! (maniacal laughter!)

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: 15 Oct 1997 21:38:17 -0500

Here is another M.L. Newsted Jr. Fractal

.FRM-
CrossN2Eyes (xaxis) { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
    z = (pixel - 1) / pixel
    c = pixel:

    z = z*z + c
    |z| < 4
    }

.PAR-

Star Algae         { ; M.L. Newsted Jr.
                     ; Green Algae in Blue Water
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nuker.frm
  formulaname=CrossN2Eyes
  center-mag=+0.44344171850000000/-0.32639172650000000/6249.668/0.9997

colors=00027g38g39h4Ai4Bi5Ci5Dj6Ek6Fk7Gk7Hl8Im8Jm9Km9LnAMoANoBOoBPpCQqCR\

qDSqDTrEUsFVsFWsGXtGYuHXuHYuHZuH_uI`vIawJbwJcwKdx<2>LgyAV0<12>CX2DX2DX2E\

X3EX3<18>H`6I`6I`7Ia7Ia8Ja8<4>KcALcALdAMdAMdB<7>PgDPgEPhEPhEQhF<20>WoNXo\

NXpNYpNYpO<8>`sR`tRatRatRbtRbtR<2>etRetRftRftRgtR<22>ttRutRutRutQ<5>utNu\

sNusNurMuqL<5>unHumHumGumG<9>uhBuhBugBugBugA<7>tc8tc8sb7sa6sa6s`5r`5rZ4r\
  Z4rX4qX4qV2qV2qT2WWWWWWzzz<6>zzzkkkkkkzzz<5>zzz00e10f<4>26g
  }

I know the color isn't that hot, but I'm still experimenting with those.

Hi Thiery, did you get my message?

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 21:43:38 -0500

So... if I create a fractal and par I can copyright it?

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:09:58 -0400 Sylvie Gallet
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hi Nuke,
>
>>> Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted
>yesterday?
>>> Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as
>original.
>>> Sylvie?
>
>  Though the tool I used (Fractint) is free, the pars I posted
>yesterday
>are my creations (coordinates, coloring schemes, palettes...) and I
>don't=
>
>put them in the public domain.
>
>        - Sylvie
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  [e-mail]
>  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
>  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!
Date: 15 Oct 1997 23:03:58 -0400



>So... if I create a fractal and par I can copyright it?


No, because it's already copyrighted.  (Ain't life grand?)  But you can
notify people that it's copyrighted, by using the little notices people put
on their things.  (ya know, some people,...) lol

>>BKNambo "copyright 1997 me"
--
| H     [e-mail] (:P McQ)|  UIN: 1936556   ____    __|
|=@==== http://come.to/brocks.place |afw?*********** /_   \  / /|
| H H H "World Domination Through Trivia" -S3Kitties  / /\ \/ / |
| H H H Marcher -- Just my imagination -- Nightwatch /_/  \__/  |
Visit the really big monster MSN Trivia Schedule at my webpage!
       http://members.aol.com/brockbadge/sched.html



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 15 Oct 1997 22:16:31 -0600

Jay wrote:

> This seems to be true for Microsoft compilers, but is incorrect in general.
> Borland C++ compilers have 'long double' which gives you (and
> I copy this from their help screen)

I can't speak for the latest Win95-only Microsoft Visual
C/C++ compilers, but I can definitively say that the older DOS MS
C/C++ 7.0 that I use for Fractint DOES support 80 bit long double.
I'd be very surprized if it turns out to be true that Microsoft has
*removed* long double support.

Tim




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From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 15 Oct 1997 23:38:54 -0400 (EDT)


Jon Noring wrote:
>
> Sunspot activity caused [e-mail] (Ian J. Kaplan) to utter:

no, no, it was the phase of the moon...
[snip me]
[snip you]

[aside- I'm concerned in part about the definition of 'in essence identical'
as applied to fractals... rather vague. Hell, maybe patent law is more
applicable. 'Spark of genius', as the phrase goes, at least has some
caselaw defining it.]

> Note that ideas, databases (though this may change), and processes cannot be
> copyrighted -- it is only the tangible expression of those things which are
> copyrighted (e.g., the data in a phone book is Public Domain, but wholesale
> photocopying of pages from a phone book in excess of Fair Use allowance is a
> violation of copyright).
>

   Right. So-- is the formula and parameter set for a fractal image not
an idea? if it is an idea, just what is the tangible expression that is
being copyrighted? if it is a tangible expression, well, gosh,
"Mandelbrot set corners x1 x2 y1 y2" doesn't quite seem enough to be
called an expression...

> allowance)?  Maybe there are legal precedents where the courts have figured
> this out, maybe in related cases, but I bet for fractal art it has not been
> tested to the point where courts have given precedent-setting decisions.  If
> it has we'd be posting that information here.

   Mathematical images as copyrighted art have never been the subject of
real amounts of money, hence no court cases... I suppose I hope they will
be...

>
> I would hope that others here who have a better handle of the copyright of
> Fractint-derived fractal images can post their thoughts here.  I do recognize
> that the Fractint community may have come to a consensus, but note that until
> the courts rule definitively, a consensus means nothing legally.
>

   Oh, of course, it was just my curiosity speaking. Of course, when it
does come time for a court to rule, one might expect it to take the
opinions of the population of fractal artists as to what constitutes an
original work under advisement, and a fair fraction of that community
does read this listserv... :)


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 16 Oct 1997 00:34:04 -0400

Tim,

 - I can't speak for the latest Win95-only Microsoft Visual
 - C/C++ compilers, but I can definitively say that the older DOS MS
 - C/C++ 7.0 that I use for Fractint DOES support 80 bit long double.
 - I'd be very surprized if it turns out to be true that Microsoft has
 - *removed* long double support.

This is indeed the case, at some point along the line Microsoft _removed_
support for 80-bit long doubles from Visual C++ (I think at version 4).  If
you look in the float.h file you will see long double (and all the related
limits) are defined, for anything not defining _M_M68K, as equivalent to
the type double limits.  This means that for 68K Mac compilation, you do
get an 80-bit long double, but for x86, PPC, or Alpha, you only get 64-bit
double.  This is really baffling, since if in even *one* case they support
the 80-bit format, it throws their compatibility argument out the window.

Beats me what the hell they were thinking.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 01:40:25 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-15 07:31:12 EDT, you write:

<<   There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
 color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6
 package available at Spanky's.
 http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html >>

I also have a Windows color map utility called "Makemap" which has been
available at the Compuserve Fractint site (graphdev) since 1994 and at my web
site (http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001). Its free, of course.
Ron Barnett

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From: Nigel Long <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: Old user, new problem
Date: 16 Oct 1997 08:51:34 PDT

From the originator of this thread....

Many thanks to all those who assisted in resolving this problem. The answer was
found by changing the order of some of the commands in my SSTOOLS.INI file -
Fractint seems to dislike some commands in certain orders. Vesadetect had to go
first or it would not work. (anybody else found this?)

I think we can call this thread closed. Thanks again - Now I can resume my 8 year
love affair with fractals!

Nigel Long



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 16 Oct 1997 10:19:20 BST

OK fair enough.
So 80 bit numbers are acceptable.
Does DJGPP allow them?

I wasn't aware that there was a machine code instruction to copy the
whole of one 80 bit fpu register to memory. They would probably be
quite cumbersome to use, since they would require several 'ordinary'
registers to store outside the fpu. However fractals can use these extra
16 bits of goodness, since the number never needs to leave the FPU during
one iteration (in mandel case anyway), only if you actually wanted to
do anything else with a particular coord, eg plot the real and imag values.
I assume this is a bit more correct than last time...

Hoppy

BTW, A nice colouring method I use for 24 bit colour goes along the lines of:
red = sin (Imag/mag)
green = sin (real/mag)
blue = sin (iter/mag)
This sort of colouring is slower, but can make some really nice patterns.
Try all sort of other combinations, they all look nice

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From: Andrew Schoonmaker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 05:47:00 -0700

At 15:30 10/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I created giant files with every midget through period 16 (nearly
>65000) and many thousands more through period 64. I viewed
>many of these with Fractint which draws them at a pace of a
>second or each.  It can get hypnotic.  Anyway, I could post them
>and copyright the whole lot!  It is stupid, I agree.  As for copyrighting
>formula - the Mset equation was published in copyright
>articles by Mandelbrot himself. So there we are.

A couple of questions...  One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period
64"?

Two, any chance you'd make said files available somewhere? :)

 -Andrew (who figures that while copyrighting an image isn't stupid, if
it's too generic the chance of someone else trying to do the same is really
high)


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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 11:25:12 -0400

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>I also have a Windows color map utility called "Makemap" which has been
available at the Compuserve Fractint site (graphdev) since 1994 and at
my web
site (<A HREF="http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001">http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001</A>). Its free, of course.
Ron Barnett</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
The "Makemap" utility I referred to as being part of the Fracxtra6 package
<B><I>IS</I></B> yours!  (The version I have is 1.1 - 1994.
Do you have an update?) I apologize for not identifying you as its author,
but it is sort of buried there among hundreds of other files and your name
regrettably gets lost and one has to look for it.  Incidentally, the
above URL does not work for me: "Netscape is unable to locate the server....."
<BR>Gedeon Peteri</HTML>


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 12:05:29 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-16 11:31:25 EDT, you write:

<< <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
 I also have a Windows color map utility called "Makemap" which has been
 available at the Compuserve Fractint site (graphdev) since 1994 and at
 my web
 site (<A HREF="http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001">http:/members.aol.com/RBarn00
01</A>). Its free, of course.
 Ron Barnett
 </BLOCKQUOTE>
 The "Makemap" utility I referred to as being part of the Fracxtra6 package
 IS yours!  (The version I have is 1.1 - 1994.
 Do you have an update?) I apologize for not identifying you as its author,
 but it is sort of buried there among hundreds of other files and your name
 regrettably gets lost and one has to look for it.  Incidentally, the
 above URL does not work for me: "Netscape is unable to locate the
server....."

Gedeon Peteri
  >>

Gedeon,
You are right, it is my "makemap" in Fracxtra6. I downloaded the package to
check it out last night. The address above for my web site is missing a "/"
after "http:". Here is a more complete address, which may help:
http://members.aol.com/RBarn0001/index.htm.
The newest version is 1.2. Someday, if I ever find time, I will make a Win95
version.
Ron Barnett.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 12:09:15 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-16 11:31:25 EDT, you write:

<< <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
 I also have a Windows color map utility called "Makemap" which has been
 available at the Compuserve Fractint site (graphdev) since 1994 and at
 my web
 site (<A HREF="http:/members.aol.com/RBarn0001">http:/members.aol.com/RBarn00
01</A>). Its free, of course.
 Ron Barnett
 </BLOCKQUOTE>
 The "Makemap" utility I referred to as being part of the Fracxtra6 package
 IS yours!  (The version I have is 1.1 - 1994.
 Do you have an update?) I apologize for not identifying you as its author,
 but it is sort of buried there among hundreds of other files and your name
 regrettably gets lost and one has to look for it.  Incidentally, the
 above URL does not work for me: "Netscape is unable to locate the
server....."

Gedeon Peteri
  >>

Gedeon,
You are right, it is my "makemap" in Fracxtra6. I downloaded the package to
check it out last night. The address above for my web site is missing a "/"
after "http:". Here is a more complete address, which may help:
http://members.aol.com/RBarn0001/index.htm.
The newest version is 1.2. Someday, if I ever find time, I will make a Win95
version.
Ron Barnett.


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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 10:33:43 -0600


My advice to anyone seriously concerned about copyright theft of their
fractal images is to only published them in print.  Don't publish the
FRM file, don't publish the PAR file, don't publish the image --
especially not on your web page!  However, this means that the
audience for your work is severely limited since only those people who
physically walk by the printed works are going to see them.

There are also technologies for adding "digital watermarks" to image
files so that you can prove they violated your copyright.  I haven't
looked into the details of how these work and I've always wondered if
a 2x2 pixel gaussian blur filter over the image wouldn't remove
them, but I've never had a sample to work with.  Also, GIF and JPEG
files have the ability to add text comments to the image, so you
should add a "Copyright (C) 1997, Elmer J. Fudd" to the image in the
text block.  (You can see this information if you view the image in
Netscape and do "View Document Info".)  Personally I don't like the
copyright notice attached to the pixels, I think its ugly, but that's
just me :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 10:46:08 -0600


Jon, thanks for the interesting viewpoint.  Here's a question for
everyone to ponder.  If I take the PAR/FRM files distributed in the
fracxtra package and make batch files to generate all the images and
them make the images available for others to browse on the web, would
I be violating people's copyright?  Presumably they published the
FRM/PAR files in fracxtra to share in the first place.  Many of the
images in that collection take many hours to compute even on my P90
machine.  People always say "distribute the par file and let the
person recompute the image if they want", but as image computation
time increases, it becomes less likely that people will even SEE the
more heavy duty images.  Lots of people are impatient and abort the
image if it takes too long.  I know that I wouldn't have seen even
half of these images if I didn't batch render them and browse later.
Thoughts?
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 10:53:10 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Andrew Schoonmaker <[e-mail]>  writes:
> A couple of questions...  One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period
> 64"?

I'll take a stab at it... each "bud" in M is a basin of attraction.
Inside each "bud" is a point c, where z := z^2 + c is a cycle.  The
length of the cycle is the period referred to; we can label the entire
basin of attraction with the period of this point c.  The main cardiod
is period 1, the bud along the real axis to the left of the main
cardiod is period 2, the next bud to the left of that along the real
axis is period 4, and so on.  The period doubling as you progress down
the real line can be viewed in fractint by looking at the bifurcation
fractal type.  The bifurcation fractal type is a visualization of the
dynamics of M along the real line.

Clearer or muddier now? :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:18:55 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-15 17:44:41 EDT, you write:

<< Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
 everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
 exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
 perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
 a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
 copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x. >>

It applies. Several of us fractal artists have been involved in a suit with
someone using images without permission. The case was settled out of court,
but the take home lesson is that intellectual properties laws, including
copyright, do apply. That's why many of us include copyright notices in our
par files.
Ron Barnett

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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Julibrot bug report
Date: 16 Oct 1997 12:37:38 -0500

{WARNING: THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS EXPLICIT MATHEMATICAL CONTENT! IF
QUATERNION JULIA SETS SCARE YOU, READ NO FURTHER!}

The Julibrot fractal type seems to have a serious bug in it.  It
concerns drawing with the quat and hypercomplex types. Here's the
details:
1.  Draw a julibrot with orbit set to quatj, params set to your favorite
numbers (preferably <1), and
the from...to values set to -1,0,1,0.  If you're too lazy, here's a .par
file that does the same thing:
testquat1          { ; any quatjulia
  reset=1960 type=julibrot julibrotfromto=-2/2/0/0 julibroteyes=2.5
  orbitname=quatjul center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.14/-0.32/0.1/0.5/0/0 colors=@altern.map
  }
You get some type of quaternion julia set that probably isn't very
interesting.
Now press Z and change the orbit type to "quat".  Leave everything the
same, including the from...to values. A .par file for this:
testquat2          { ; quat after pressing z
  reset=1960 type=julibrot julibrotfromto=-2/2/0/0 julibroteyes=2.5
  orbitname=quat center-mag=0/0/0.6666667 params=-0.14/-0.32/0.1/0.5
  colors=@altern.map
  }
What do you see?  If your program is like mine, you get the exact same
picture that you get for step 1.
Wait, it gets worse.  Press t and reselect julibrot.  Again, set the
orbit to quat and change from...to to -2,0,2,0. .par file:
testquat3          { ; julibrot/quat after pressing t
                     ; a sphere on my system
  reset=1960 type=julibrot julibrotfromto=-2/2/0/0 julibroteyes=2.5
  orbitname=quat center-mag=0/0/0.6666667 params=0/0/0/0 float=y
  colors=@altern.map
  }
Now, you get a sphere.  What's going on here???? I thought if you pile
up slices of the quat fractal type (2-D) you would get something much
more interesting than a sphere, especially because you get the original
Mandelbrot if you set all the params to 0 for the quat type (not
quatjulia).  BTW, the same thing happens for the hypercomplex type.  And
it doesn't work in Winfract either.

Also, which way does julibrot with orbit=quatjul pile up the slices of
the quaternion julia that you select?  I've tried to find quaternion
julias to make 3-dimensional, but when I pick one with, say, 5 branches,
I can never find a trace of this symmetry in the plane of the screen.
Is this because the quatjulia slices that appear in that type get drawn
horizontally in the julibrot rendering, or does it just get hidden?

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS

or Windows emulator available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
-Me






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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:57:47 -0400

<HTML>
Ron, Well, yes! How stupid of me! I should have noticed that missing slash!
In any event, I got to your site and downloaded Makemap v. 1.2, but I regret
to report that it does not work properly.  When maximizing the window,
large part of the grid disappears and is replaced by a jumble of dots.
A map, however, can still be loaded, but now something related happens
when one reduces the window.  Part of the maximized image remains
in the background, with the reduced image overlapping it.  None of
these problems occurred with version 1.1, to which I have now returned.
I like your program and use it a lot.  All of us owe a gratitude to
people like you who generously make their work available free to all.
Gedeon
<BR> </HTML>


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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 12:09:35 -0600

Speaking of color map tools, does anyone know of a tool that extracts
MAP files from GIF files and lets you visually combine the colormaps
from a collection of images, using combinative techniques like
addition, subtraction, blending, random mix, etc., of the individual
map entries?  Sort of like the KPT fractal explorer interface, but for
colormaps.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 !
Date: 16 Oct 1997 12:19:40 -0600

Someone recently asked about this book, but I can't remember on which
list, so I'm sending this to both.  Actually, its good for both lists
anyway :)

<URL: http://www.hamiltonbook.com/titles/8/4/5/845396.html>

This book, HARDBACK, is an absolute steal at only $8 + $3 shipping.
I don't work for hamilton book, but I love the deals they have on
remainders!  Buy this book now while you have the chance at this
price.  Perfect for the coffee table!  Lots of pictures, easily
digestible in short doses as each section discusses different
applications of fractals isolated from other sections.  The bibliography
alone is worth the price of the book!

You won't be sorry :).
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 14:47:54 -0400 (EDT)


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> It applies. Several of us fractal artists have been involved in a suit with
> someone using images without permission. The case was settled out of court,
> but the take home lesson is that intellectual properties laws, including
> copyright, do apply. That's why many of us include copyright notices in our
> par files.
> Ron Barnett
>
   Oh, I never intended to suggest that copyright didn't apply. I'm just
looking for clarification of exactly what is copyrightable and what isn't...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: color maps
Date: 16 Oct 1997 15:26:25 -0400

Contents:

 1 Internet Message Header
 2 <no topic> * Binary *

=============================
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

        please use a more standard mode for your e-mails.

        Thanks.         Thierry.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 15:41:44 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-16 12:56:38 EDT, you write:

<< I be violating people's copyright?  Presumably they published the
 FRM/PAR files in fracxtra to share in the first place.  Many of the
 images in that collection take many hours to compute even on my P90 >>

If the PAR has an imbedded copyright notice, then the image in GIF89a fromat
will have the imbedded notice. From a practical point of view, the way most
of us from the old graphdev compuserve forum have approached the matter is to
allow free use UNLESS SOMEONE INTENDS TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE IMAGES!!
Ron Barnett

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:49:29 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail]  writes:
> If the PAR has an imbedded copyright notice, then the image in GIF89a fromat
> will have the imbedded notice. From a practical point of view, the way most
> of us from the old graphdev compuserve forum have approached the matter is to
> allow free use UNLESS SOMEONE INTENDS TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE IMAGES!!

Cool... I wasn't planning on charging for access to the web site! <g>
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 !
Date: 16 Oct 1997 17:06:58 -0500

Is the the book by Mandelbrot?
I would Love to have a copy.
Is there a way to ge tit instead of off the net?
Alas. I'm not hooked up to the internet.
But maybe soon.

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 !
Date: 16 Oct 1997 16:19:32 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail]  writes:
> Is the the book by Mandelbrot?

Yes.

> Is there a way to ge tit instead of off the net?

They only take orders by US mail.  Here's what you need:


Send check/money-order to:

    EDWARD R. HAMILTON, Bookseller
    Falls Village, CT 06031-5000


    Qty     Item Number    Title                Price
    1      845396    Fractal Geometry of Nature    $ 7.95 ea.

    Shipping & Handling                $3.00

They only ship to addresses inside the USA.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 16 Oct 1997 22:38:38 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-16 14:55:37 EDT, you write:

<< Oh, I never intended to suggest that copyright didn't apply. I'm just
 looking for clarification of exactly what is copyrightable and what isn't...
>>

Ian,
My option (not necessarily the correct legal), which came out of much
discussion on the afore-mentioned matter, is that formulae are probably not
copyrightable while PAR file probably are copyrightable. If the color scheme
of the image is changed enought to look uniquely different, it probably is
not a clear violation of a copyright. <g>.
Ron Barnett

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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 00:32:16 -0500

I hate to bring this subject up again, but I noticed that in the whole
discussion on killing off the DOS version of Fractint, no real numbers
indicating speed were mentioned.  Well, I had some time on my hands, so
I decided to run a test of my own.  This is based on the "testquat1"
.par that I recently posted:
testquat1          { ; a radom quatjulia, just made up numbers
  reset=1960 type=julibrot julibrotfromto=-2/2/0/0 julibroteyes=2.5
  orbitname=quatjul center-mag=0/0/0.6666667
  params=-0.14/-0.32/0.1/0.5/0/0 colors=@altern.map
  }

I then ran it in both Winfract and Fractint, with both float and integer
modes  Both tests used 800X600 resolution, and the Windows version was
the active application all the time.  The DOS version was run by
double-clicking on a .PIF file (or shortcut) that had all the defaults
unchanged (in other words, the shortcut that appears after you run an
MS-DOS program for the first timewas not modified) except for debug=500
as a command-line parameter, allow screen saver disabled, and idle
sensitivity set to max. SSTOOLS.INI only contains textsafe=save.  My
system is a Pentium Pro 180 MHz (too slow and old ;) ) with 32 MB RAM, a
Diamond Stealth 3D 2000 Pro video card, running Windows 95 (not OSR2).
Here are the results:
Fractint Integer:  26 min 40.47 sec
Fractint Float:  26 min 43.87sec
WinFrac Integer: 12 min 17.59 sec
WinFrac Float:  12 min 79.98 sec

This really surprised me because most of the Windows ports of things I
use run a lot slower than the DOS versions.  If anyone would like to try
these tests on his/her computer, or make up his/her own, I only ask that
you be as specific as possible about your system information (XFractint
users are especially encouraged to join the debate!  :)  )  If anyone
can explain why WinFract is so much faster,  that would be cool, but
don't expect to get anything  out of it other that admiration! <vbg>

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --

-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]



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From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 17 Oct 1997 01:12:21 -0500

Ian J Kaplan wrote:
>
> Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask:  what does
> everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals?
>

U.S. Copyright Law
==================

Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United
States (title 17, U.S. Code http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/) to
the authors of "original works of authorship" including literary,
dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works.  This
protection is available to both published and unpublished works.
Section 106 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html) of the
Copyright Act (http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc/17/overview.html)
generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to
authorize others to do the following:

   -- To reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

   -- To prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

   -- To distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work
      to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by
      rental, lease, or lending;

   -- To perform the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of
      literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works,
      pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;

   -- To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of
      literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works,
      pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works,
      including the individual images of a motion picture or
      other audiovisual work.

It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the rights provided by the
Act to the owner of copyright. These rights, however, are not unlimited
in scope.  Sections 107 through 119
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc/17/107.html) of the Copyright Act
establish limitations on these rights.  In some cases, these limitations
are specified exemptions from copyright liability.  One major limitation
is the doctrine of "fair use," which is given a statutory basis in
section 107 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html) of the Act.
In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a "compulsory
license" under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are
permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with
statutory conditions.  For further information about the limitations of
any of these rights, consult the Copyright Act
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc/17/overview.html) or write to the U.S.
Copyright Office (http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/)....


Links to Related Web Sites
==========================

Active Copyright Law
--------------------

     The U.S. Copyright Office
          http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/

     Electronic registration at the Copyright Office
          gopher://marvel.loc.gov/11/copyright

     The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
          http://www.uspto.gov/

     The Library of Congress
          http://www.loc.gov/

     The Copyright Society of the U.S.A
          http://www.csusa.org/research/index.html

     Trademark Law Materials from Cornell Law School
          http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/trademark.html

New Laws, Bills, and Changes
----------------------------

     US Supreme Court Intellectual Property Decisions
          http://www.law.cornell.edu/syllabi?copyright+patent+trademark

Intellectual Property Web Sites

     Copyright Clearance Center
          http://www.openmarket.com/copyright/

     The ILTguide to Copyright
          http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index.html

     INTERNET LAW SIMPLIFIED
          http://home.earthlink.net/~ivanlove


For advice and current information about US copyright law, please
contact a qualified legal professional.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nigel Long <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 09:38:28 PDT

On 16 oct Justin  wrote:
<snip>I hate to bring this subject up again, but I noticed that in the whole
discussion on killing off the DOS version of Fractint, no real numbers
indicating speed were mentioned.  Well, I had some time on my hands, so
I decided to run a test of my own.  <snip>

I have exactly the same graphics card. The rest of the system is an AMD-K5-PR90
chip, 16Mb RAM, Win95 release 1. If I run a 640x480x256 base mandelbrot it takes
1.9 seconds (Fractint 19.6, DOS fullscreen). Winfract 18.21 takes 4.1 seconds to do
the same spec.

I suspect that your DOS session is far from optimal - tweaking is a part of windows
life I detest but have never been able to ignore. The first question I would ask is
'Are you running full-screen or windowed? I am unfortunate in that my system
refuses to run DOS graphic modes in a window, so I can't comment on the
differential, but experience with other apps at work tells me that there is a massive
speed 'hit' to be endured running windowed. In fact I have measured fractint for dos
running at exactly the same speed fullscreen in Win95, and in plain PC-DOS 6.3.
This I find surprising in itself, as Windows could be expected to add -some-
penalty! I even set up a dual-boot system because I expected a speed reduction,
and have not had to use it that much.

I will try your particular .PAR file tonight and see what happens.

Nigel.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nigel Long <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 17 Oct 1997 11:15:55 PDT

Permit me to throw in my 2 penny worth;

I work in a major UK University library. One of the concerns that has dropped onto
my desk of late is the question of the practicalities of copyright in electronic
formats. basically this boils down to the problem of discerning who really does
hold a copyright, given the ease of editing of electronic media, and the question of
priorities.

If I take a file, which has an embedded copyright message, and 'file it off' by
editing, then repost it, how does any subsequent party know about the original
copyright? The practical upshot for us is that we will not accept electronic media
for inclusion in the collection; precisely because we cannot tell if it has been
edited.

Watermarking of images is possible, but I don't see how you can do this
successfully for text, such as fractint PARs and FRMs. I respect copyright, but I am
also quite sure I have unwittingly infringed because someone else has removed a
message further down the line. Many times I have seen graphic files, which
claim to have been by X, and have seen them elsewhere as being the property of
Y.

It is very hard to establish who genuinely wrote a file first, and so establish the
real copyright holder. I can change the date of creation of a file, and so make it
appear that I wrote a file -before- someone claiming they are the creator. This is an
issue the university legal-eagles  are currently debating (at great expense). UK
courts have emulated the action of the ostrich over electronic media, and so case
law has lagged badly. What we need is someone to really get their 'code caught in
the grinder' so we have some established case law to guide us - any volunteers?

Nigel Long,
Hartley Library,
University of Southampton (Reserve Collection)
[e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Shauna Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 00:20:33 -1000

On 17 Oct 97 at 0:32, Justin A. Kolodziej spoke about (fractint) DOS
vs. Windows (vs. X-W:

> system is a Pentium Pro 180 MHz (too slow and old ;) ) with 32 MB
> RAM, a Diamond Stealth 3D 2000 Pro video card, running Windows 95
> (not OSR2). Here are the results: Fractint Integer:  26 min 40.47
> sec Fractint Float:  26 min 43.87sec WinFrac Integer: 12 min 17.59
> sec WinFrac Float:  12 min 79.98 sec

I suspect that you're encountering one of the weaknesses of the PPro
... it's optimized for 32-bit work., not 16-bit. Also, what are your
figures for straight DOS (not running under W95)?

Another blast of bits from David
Visit our no-so-boring web page: http://www.aloha.net/~shauna
Visit the Hawaii Astronomical Society: http://www.hawastsoc.org
For the best Hawaii & Pacific Basin surf forecast: mailto:[e-mail]

Random Thought for this Nanosecond
Cure for postal strikes: mail them their strike pay.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: Fractint and Java, Julian Filmer
Date: 17 Oct 1997 12:29:56 +2

le 15 Oct 97 a 21:08, Peter Jakubowicz ecrivait (Peter Jakubowicz wrote) :

> > There is a very nice Fractint utillity called Filmer written in Java by
> > David Mansfield at :
> >
> >  http://ariel.cobite.com/~julian/filmer/
> >
> >  You will even find the source of the program at thos site!
> >
> >
> > Hi Thore
> >
> I've been trying this URL for three days with no luck, mainly to see Java
> source code for a Fractint utility. Can you or anyone else tell me what
> this thing does (it's a stand-alone application, right, not an applet?)
> and where else I might be able to find it.

A search with Hotbot gives me

http://www.julianhaight.com/filmer/

You will see that there are DOS, Windows and Java versions

Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Falk Hueffner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits
Date: 17 Oct 1997 15:38:09 +0200

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>  writes:

> I just have to ask: What's all this talk about synchronous orbits
> with fractals?  Did an altavista search and came up with nothing
> related to the topic.

It is called "Simultaneous Orbit Iteration" usually. See
http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~rms/AlmondBread/ for a longer description
and an actual implementation (with sources!). With SOI you can
calculate every image in floating point precision in a few
minutes. That's why I reaaly would like to see an implementation that
supports arbitrary precision. I even consider writing one or adding it
to AlmondBread.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 12:03:08 -0500



Shauna Jones wrote:

> <snip>
> I suspect that you're encountering one of the weaknesses of the PPro
> ... it's optimized for 32-bit work., not 16-bit.

True... but WinFrac is designed for Windows 3.1, which is still mostly 16-bit
(I think).  That doesn't explain why Winfrac is more than 2 times faster than
Fractint running in Windows for Julibrots.

> Also, what are your
> figures for straight DOS (not running under W95)?
>

OK, here's the shocker...(?)  After rebooting, pressing F8, and choosing "safe
mode command prompt only" (clean boot) the results are:Integer mode:  8 min
17.68 sec
Float mode: 8 min 5.43 sec
Obviously something is taking up way too many processor cycles in Win95 that
should be going to Fractint.  Then again, I haven't tried loading all my
device drivers and just not going to Windows before running Fractint.  I'll
try that next and let you all know the results.

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) More results for DOS vs. Windows (vs. XFractint?)
Date: 17 Oct 1997 13:29:05 -0500

Boy, am I glad I'm on mid-term break here at Marquette so I can run all
these tests!  I just tried my julibrot (actually a quaternion Julia) in
DOS, but after loading all my device drivers:
CD-ROM driver
S3VBE20 (adds VESA 2.0 compatibility to S3-based cards, available from
S3's Web site http://www.s3.com)
Fastvid (speeds up VESA 2.0 modes for Pentium Pros and Pentium IIs,
available from http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/FastVid)
Xmode (Diamond's DOS refresh rate utility)
Virus scanner
Sound driver
The results this time were:
Integer mode:  11 min 16.03 sec
Float mode: 11 min 17.89 sec
I find it strange that float mode is only faster when the system is
clean-booted, though the differences are too small to notice.  Anyway,
the results here aren't too bad, being a minute faster than WinFract.
Still, I think a 32-bit version in either Windows or Dos would blow the
version we have now  away.  Anyone care to challenge that?
I wish I could run XFractint, but I really don't want to bother changing
my entire OS just to run one program!

BTW, has anyone checked out the "Julibrot bug" yet?  I think there is
something seriously wrong here that deserves further investigation. I
REALLY want to see quat in 3-d!

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --

-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 11:43:47 -0700


Justin K. wrote:
>Obviously something is taking up way too many processor cycles in
>Win95 that should be going to Fractint.

A year ago the Mersenne Prime search email list mentioned a
Microsoft internal product called Wintop.exe part of the Krnltoys.exe
       http://www.microsoft.com/windows/software/krnltoy.htm
       http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/kerneltoys.htm
self extracting package from the windows developers. Search for it at
Microsoft.com. It is an as is 'toy' that shows which processes are using
the processor and how much.  We used it to tune up and get the max
out of the Prime95 search program. I  found that I had to set the
properties of DOS windows so that the Prime95 program would get
all possible background cycles and my DOS window would not be
shorted.  I can get 99+% from a DOS window (full screen or windowed)
with Prime95 stopped and 89% with Prime95 running. When the DOS
prompt is idle I can get 99+% on Prime95.  This is ideal.  With the
wrong settings, I got 70% in the DOS window even when looking at
the C:\> prompt.

For some reason I have found WinTop does not always work with the
latest  Windows release.

Go to your DOS window click upper left MSDOS icon and pull down
to 'properties'. This dialog shows 'Program/Font/Memory/Screen/Misc'
Click Misc.  Make the Idle sensitivity High, check Background suspend.
Now if you have more than one MSDOS window open, only the one with
focus gets the cycles.  You can adjust these to match what you are doing,
adjusting each window.  The pifs for the launching icons can be set up
also.
I have a shortcut to Fractint whose icon properties are set to  'Always
suspend' (not checked) and 'Idle sensitivity' set high.  This way I can
launch the fractal of the day, set to 320x200, push Alt-Enter to make it a
window and watch it finish while I do other things.  I just measured 98%
for
Fractint in a 320x200 window with 14 tasks running including this emailer.
The MSDOS window is now idle and eating 96%.    So now I just set to
'Always suspend' and it is eating 0%.  You can almost completely control
it.  Now I just put its idle sensitivity to low and it uses about 89%
computing
another image while I write this.

With all this you should be able to get very close to 100% in your tests.

Another $.03 worth.

Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 17 Oct 1997 21:17:23 -0600

Ok, after consulting with "the customers" here and on CompuServe, the
decision is in. Version 20 will NOT support integer math, so hang on
to your version 19.6. Even Bert Tyler, the original guru of
fractint's integer math, voted to remove it, as well as all pre-386
support. Similar sentiments were expressed here.

This will slim Fractint way down, and freeing up space for  adding
new features. It will have the paradoxical effect at once both
prolonging the life of the DOS version and faciltating ports to new
platforms sich as Win95.

Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code,
what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We
could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in
types.

Thoughts?

Tim




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 17 Oct 1997 21:17:23 -0600

Justin wrote:

> I hate to bring this subject up again, but I noticed that in the whole
> discussion on killing off the DOS version of Fractint, no real numbers
> indicating speed were mentioned.

Actually, the thread was not on killing the DOS version, but rather
on killing integer math. This would extend the life of the DOS
version as well as make it easier to port to other environments. We
just had a discussion on compuserve about this, and the decision was
unanimous: take out integer math. So file away your version 19.6 for
the future - version 20.0 will not support integer math.

> This really surprised me because most of the Windows ports of things I
> use run a lot slower than the DOS versions.

Winfract uses the exact same code as the DOS fractint of the same
version. It is not a 32 bit app, but uses the same medium memory
model that the DOS version uses.

A Win95 port would be different. It would use a 32 bit memory
model that can access more than 640 K using 32 bit pointers.

There are reasons why the DOS version could run slower than
Winfract under some circumstances. Fractint exceeded the 640K DOS
limit a long time agao. In order to survive, we made use of overlays,
in which some parts of the code are no loaded into memory until they
are used. In some cases performance suffered because code gets
swapped in and out of memory. I don't know if that is the expalnation
in this case.

You should get  version of the DOS fractint that matches your
Winfracft version (18.something). I'll bet then the DOS bversion
would be faster.

When we cut out integer math, we will able to optimize the overlays
better and some featrures will probably speed up.

Tim


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 17 Oct 1997 22:46:35 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-17 22:27:38 EDT, you write:

<< Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code,
 what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
 that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We
 could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in
 types.

 Thoughts?

 Tim
  >>

Just make it simple enough for us newbies to access them.  KivrynH

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) old user, new problem
Date: 17 Oct 1997 23:26:03 -0400 (EDT)


V8?? where??? send it to the guys collecting old versions! There's a link
at spanky.triumf.ca now under "FRACTING pages at spanky" for the new
"Fractint museum curators" :-)

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Integer math
Date: 17 Oct 1997 23:35:12 -0400

Tim,

>>Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code, wh=
at
would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types that can be
implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We could include a
special formula file with all the removed built-in types. <<

Modest??<g> I have many thousands of images implemented with the built-in=

types. Sometimes I like to revisit some of them and zoom in on them. Coul=
d
some mechanism be devised to somehow declare equivalence of the deleted
built-in types with their formulas so that the images would not have to b=
e
regenerated?

Lee

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From: [e-mail] (MR CHARLES F CROCKER)
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Wi
Date: 17 Oct 1997 23:38:20, -0500

Justin wrote
"OK, here's the shocker...(?)  After rebooting, pressing F8, and choosing
"safe mode command prompt only" (clean boot) the results are:Integer mode:
8 min 17.68 sec Float mode: 8 min 5.43 sec"

Here are my results for a Pentium 90 (happens to be one of the defective
ones). Running DOS 6.20. It doesn't know that Win 95 is on another drive.
Integer 20:11.66
FP      20:12.76
Integer seem to have a microscopic advantage.

Does a clean boot with Win95 actually turn the system over to what it
considers DOS? It seems to be running about 20% faster than you would
predict from clock speed, and FP has the advantage which it doesn't in all
other posted results.

Charles

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 00:48:38 -0400 (EDT)


No offense but this JAVA/C++ debate is really spamming up the mailing
list. I have what appears to be roughly 150K of "Why not Java?" in my
mbox, making the mail system slow as hell and causing disk shortage. Gak.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 18 Oct 1997 00:49:34 -0400 (EDT)


Gnu C++ also allows "long double"


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 18 Oct 1997 01:08:06 -0400 (EDT)


Nothing silly that Microsoft does surprises me anymore.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
Date: 18 Oct 1997 01:11:17 -0400 (EDT)

>
>OK fair enough.
>So 80 bit numbers are acceptable.
>Does DJGPP allow them?

It does indeed. This will compile without problems:

int decorator;
long shot;
double or_nothing;
long double barreled_shotgun_for_blowing_up_Imps;
...


And the long double does have the full 80 bits of precision in
calculating, storing and retrieving.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 !
Date: 18 Oct 1997 01:19:35 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Is the the book by Mandelbrot?
>I would Love to have a copy.
>Is there a way to ge tit instead of off the net?
>Alas. I'm not hooked up to the internet.

You're not?? Then my attempts to receive messages through telepathy has
succeeded!

:-)

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 18 Oct 1997 01:23:49 -0400 (EDT)




Try running that fucker in pure DOS (command prompt only from boot menu)
and see how Windows stacks up then!

Do you have any IDEA what happens to a DOS app running on Winblows, when
it doesn't have the focus, and idle sensitivity is at max and a Windows
app is also using a lot of cpu?


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 18 Oct 1997 01:44:29 -0500



Paul Derbyshire wrote:

> Try running that **** in pure DOS (command prompt only from boot menu)
> and see how Windows stacks up then!

Been there, done that, got the results (in case you missed them):

Fractint Integer under Windows:  26 min 40.47 sec
Fractint Float under Windows:  26 min 43.87sec
WinFrac Integer: 12 min 17.59 sec
WinFrac Float:  12 min 79.98 sec
FractInt Integer mode when booted "Safe Mode Command Prompt Only":  8 min 17.68
sec
FractInt Float mode when booted "Safe Mode Command Prompt Only": 8 min 5.43 sec
FractInt Integer mode when booted "Command Prompt Only":  11 min 16.03 sec
FractInt Float mode when booted "Command Prompt Only": 11 min 17.89 sec

And watch your language from now on.  As it says on the Fractint Wish List home
page, "Fractals are a family occupation," and I'm sure no one on this mailing list
appreciates your comments in that letter.  You can use that kind of language when
you E-mail Microsoft, but please don't use it here.  I've had more than my share
of that in my time,  and my use of that A-word was very questionable at best as
well.

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) RE:  Removing Builtin types...? (was: Integer math)
Date: 18 Oct 1997 03:33:17 -0400

Hello!
    I hope this one will not generate mail only to prove different =
remailers act differently... Now with the topic of the day:

-----Original Message-----
Sent:    vendredi, 17 octobre 1997 23:35

<<Tim>>Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing =
code, what
would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types that can be
implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We could include a
special formula file with all the removed built-in types. <<Tim>>

<<Lee>>Modest??<g> I have many thousands of images implemented with the =
built-in
types. Sometimes I like to revisit some of them and zoom in on them. =
Could
some mechanism be devised to somehow declare equivalence of the deleted
built-in types with their formulas so that the images would not have to =
be
regenerated?<<Lee>>

I don't see how that would be so hard to implement as suggested, =
although I haven't been thru the code... Maybe I should do that, and get =
involved in the coding while I've got djgpp sitting on my hd :)

But <g>, how much space/time are we talking about here? Is it worth the =
trouble? Ints? yeah since their a great deal of code replication without =
much (if any) speed improvements... Is "applying" a parsed formula =
slower then a hard coded one? If so, could that be improved as well? =
Maybe a "specific" gccfractint? (of gccfract..?) to work within? I'm =
just guessing here, maybe getting ahead of myself ..?

What are your thoughts on this?
(And please, try to make your subject meaningful!)

CIAO!

'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Version 20
Date: 18 Oct 1997 03:42:21 -0400

Hello again :)

    Two quickies this time: when are we hoping to see the new version, and are they plans for a new name?


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jon Noring <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 18 Oct 1997 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT)

[e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan) wrote:
>[e-mail] wrote:

>> It applies. Several of us fractal artists have been involved in a suit with
>> someone using images without permission. The case was settled out of court,
>> but the take home lesson is that intellectual properties laws, including
>> copyright, do apply. That's why many of us include copyright notices in our
>> par files.
>> Ron Barnett

>   Oh, I never intended to suggest that copyright didn't apply. I'm just
>looking for clarification of exactly what is copyrightable and what isn't...

As I said before, IANAL, but I think common sense with some lay knowledge of
IP law tells me the current thinking that using somebody else's PAR file to
regenerate and use without modification an image without permission (implicit
or explicit) is a copyright violation.  And the PAR file itself can, I
believe, be protected by copyright so if I reproduce somebody else's PAR file
without permission, for example in a book, it would probably be considered by
the courts to be a copyright violation totally separate from the image it
represents.  However, the information contained in the PAR file *cannot* be
copyrighted -- it is only the tangible expression of the information which
can be copyrighted.  (The same goes for formula files -- the information is
not copyrightable -- mathematical formulas cannot be copyrighted (I believe,
but they might be patentable!), but the tangible expression of the formulas
is -- everything in copyright law boils down to "tangible expression".)

But taking somebody else's PAR file, and then modifying it so as to make a
"new work" image which is different enough from the original (what constitutes
a "new work" is something for the courts to decide), would be considered Fair
Use.  After all, it is recognized in the philosophy of copyright that
no work truly stands alone, but has been influenced by and stands atop other
works, which is one of the reasons for the Fair Use allowance since the
purpose of copyright is to "promote the arts and sciences" and having too
draconian of a copyright law would not meet this fundamental Constitutional
and simply common sense requirement.

In my perspective, substantially changing the color map so as to make the image
*clearly look different* than the original may be allowed by the courts (but
editing one color to improve an image's appearance but otherwise leaving the
general image look similar would probably be a copyright violation.)  And
the same could be said of zooming and coordinates -- small changes to enhance
the image may be a violation, but significantly changing the zoom/coords to
create a clearly new work, even with the same color map, may be allowable.
The bottom line is -- is it a "new work", or is it "Memorex".  :^)

I don't think the courts have tackled fractal or similar images yet but when
they do, it is important that we of the fractal art community make sure that
we educate the court as to the process and nuances of creating fractal images,
otherwise the courts may set incorrect precedents -- for example, the
Communications Decency Act (CDA) was thrown out partly because those opposing
the CDA *made sure* the courts fully understood the many nuances of the
Internet which make it unique, and from this understanding the courts were
able to correctly apply Constitutional principles.  As it stood, the CDA was
drafted by those who had *no idea* of what the Internet was, how it worked,
and its various nuances.  They do now.

Just a lay perspective.  If you have real questions on Copyright law, go find
a good IP attorney and don't rely on what I wrote.

Jon Noring

_____________________________________________________________________________
 OmniMedia Digital Publishing | E-Books: http://www.awa.com/library/omnimedia
 9671 S. 1600 West St.        | Digital/Fractal Art: (coming soon!)
 South Jordan, UT 84095       |
 801-253-4037                 | E-mail: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 11:06:39 -0500

Just a very quick (and hopefully not controversial) question:  I'm doing
a speech on fractals for my Public Speaking class in college, and I'm
not sure how to pronounce Benoit Mandelbrot's first name.  Is it Ben-wah
like it probably would be in French, or as it is spelled in English?
(probably a dumb question, since he's French) <g>

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --

-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]



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From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 14:17:06 -0700

> (probably a dumb question, since he's French) <g>
>
Can't help you with the pronunciation (tho I've only heard it pronounced
Ben-wah), but if you're giving a talk on him you might be interested to
know he was born in Warsaw in 1924 and didn't move to Paris until 1936
(see Gleick's Chaos, p. 87); but I have no idea what country he
considers himself to be of, France or Poland.

                    Peter

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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 14:26:21 -0600

Paul opined:

> No offense but this JAVA/C++ debate is really spamming up the mailing
> list. I have what appears to be roughly 150K of "Why not Java?" in my
> mbox, making the mail system slow as hell and causing disk shortage. Gak.

I agree. Discussion of languages for Fractint or fractal programs is
an appropriate subject, but this has gone overboard. I'm not saying
the subject is entirely off topic, but I'd like to ask list members
to show restraint on this subject so we don't overload the list.

Tim





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From: [e-mail] (Dr I D Entwistle)
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 18 Oct 1997 16:56:50

On Fri 17 Oct 97 (21:17:23), [e-mail] wrote:
>Justin wrote:
>
>> I hate to bring this subject up again, but I noticed that in the
>whole
>> discussion on killing off the DOS version of Fractint, no real
>numbers
>> indicating speed were mentioned.
  Some real data for the discussion on the future demise of Integer Fractint.
The default 640x480 pixel Fractint  M set image generated on my Cyrix 100 Mhz
5x86 cpu(32 Mb RAM) which is used as a second processor on an Acorn RISC PC
with mode SF4  under DOS 6.22 is displayed in 1.48 secs(Integer) and 1.82 secs
(Float). When Fractint is run from a Windows 95 window the times are
2.09(Integer) and 2.41(Float). As I mainly use Fractint for following the
Fractint field and running FOTD I would continue to use v 19.6 for integer
until I change processors . For generating  my own M set fractals I use the
main cpu of my computer, a Dec Strongarm 200 Mhz SA110 32 Bit RISC processor.
The 64 bit integer application I use gives the Fractint default image in 0.25
secs and can generate all the M  sets upto the 64 bit limit in less than 3
minutes. I certainly support the idea that the loss of the integer facility in
Fractint is worth it to add new facilities and I look forward to downloading v
20.
      Quite the worst piece of fractint  data I have come across is my default
time for the 640x480 M set image using Winfract 18.2 under Windows 95. Both the
Integer and Float images took 120 seconds!!!
  Ian

--
 __  __  __  __      __ ___   _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ [e-mail] URL
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From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 18 Oct 1997 19:18:35 -0300 (ADT)

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Tim Wegner wrote:

> what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
> that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We

1) Speed? Wouldn't it be a massive slowdown
2) Lee's concerns are valid
3) Why bother? Just to make it smaller? Any other benefits?
4) Mandelbrot would be left I assume. ;)

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 18 Oct 1997 20:46:03 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-17 22:27:38 EDT, you write:

<< Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code,
 what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
 that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We
 could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in
 types.
  >>
Tim,
The built-in types have some bailout parameter options. If the built-in types
were removed, could the bailout options (e.g. manh, manr) be included?
Ron Barnett

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From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 21:04:00 -0400

-----Original Message-----


>Just a very quick (and hopefully not controversial) question:  I'm doing
>a speech on fractals for my Public Speaking class in college, and I'm
>not sure how to pronounce Benoit Mandelbrot's first name.  Is it Ben-wah
>like it probably would be in French, or as it is spelled in English?


While you're answering that, could someone tell me how to pronounce his last
name too?
You miss things when you only have the Internet to do them over :(

>>BKNambo
--
| H     [e-mail] (:P McQ)|  UIN: 1936556   ____    __|
|=@==== http://come.to/brocks.place |afw?*********** /_   \  / /|
| H H H "World Domination Through Trivia" -S3Kitties  / /\ \/ / |
| H H H Marcher -- Just my imagination -- Nightwatch /_/  \__/  |



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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 20:18:52 -0500





> While you're answering that, could someone tell me how to pronounce his last
> name too?
> You miss things when you only have the Internet to do them over :(
>
> >>BKNambo

Mandelbrot is just as it looks: Man-del-brot.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]





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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
Date: 18 Oct 1997 20:19:27 -0500



Tim Wegner wrote:

> Paul opined:
>
> > No offense but this JAVA/C++ debate is really spamming up the mailing
> > list. I have what appears to be roughly 150K of "Why not Java?" in my
> > mbox, making the mail system slow as hell and causing disk shortage. Gak.
>
> I agree. Discussion of languages for Fractint or fractal programs is
> an appropriate subject, but this has gone overboard. I'm not saying
> the subject is entirely off topic, but I'd like to ask list members
> to show restraint on this subject so we don't overload the list.
>
> Tim

It's my fault.  I posted the original message, and expected one or two
replies.  Instead, I got tons.  We've determined that Java sucks for fractals
(at least for now), so I hope we can give the topic a rest for a while.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --

-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]



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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 18 Oct 1997 20:36:18 -0500




> <lengthy data description snipped>
>       Quite the worst piece of fractint  data I have come across is my default
> time for the 640x480 M set image using Winfract 18.2 under Windows 95. Both the
> Integer and Float images took 120 seconds!!!
>   Ian

120 seconds????? Did you say 120???? At 640x480????  For the entire Mandelbrot at
150 iterations that you get when you start Fractint?
On my Pentium Pro 180, integer takes .66 sec and float takes .83 sec. Wait... let's
turn on pixel-by-pixel update... now integer takes 36.03 sec and float takes 36.30
sec.  Well, this _might_ explain it, but it should take about 1 minute, not 2,
unless Cyrix chips are broken or something.  Pixel-by-pixel update DOES slow things
down, but not that severely!

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Graham Daveney)
Subject: (fractint) test - ignore
Date: 19 Oct 1997 12:13:49 +1000

This is a test please ignore

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) test - ignore
Date: 19 Oct 1997 00:33:52 -0400 (EDT)



>This is a test please ignore

This is a test follow-up, please ignore.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: Andrew Schoonmaker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 18 Oct 1997 22:05:09 -0700

At 10:53 10/16/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> ,
>    Andrew Schoonmaker <[e-mail]>  writes:
>> A couple of questions...  One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period
>> 64"?
>
>I'll take a stab at it... each "bud" in M is a basin of attraction.
>Inside each "bud" is a point c, where z := z^2 + c is a cycle.  The
>length of the cycle is the period referred to; we can label the entire
>basin of attraction with the period of this point c.  The main cardiod
>is period 1, the bud along the real axis to the left of the main
>cardiod is period 2, the next bud to the left of that along the real
>axis is period 4, and so on.  The period doubling as you progress down
>the real line can be viewed in fractint by looking at the bifurcation
>fractal type.  The bifurcation fractal type is a visualization of the
>dynamics of M along the real line.
>
>Clearer or muddier now? :)

Oh, that's about what I thought you meant.  Doesn't Fractint have some
internal coloring scheme which displays this?

 -Andrew (who's started reading Metamagical Themas...)
--
Andrew Schoonmaker ([e-mail])
"This is not a complete.  Sentence.  This either."
 -David Moser

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From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 19 Oct 1997 04:29:17 -0400

        Hello Fractal World !

> Version 20 will NOT support integer math,

        are beta available for bug hunting ?

> what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
> that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser?

        what about speed in "Built-in Vs. Formulas" ?

        Best regards.   Thierry.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 19 Oct 1997 11:09:17 -0600

Thierry asked:

>         are beta available for bug hunting ?

At the moment we don't distribute betas in a possibly vain
attempt to keep the developers' lives simple <g!>

>         what about speed in "Built-in Vs. Formulas" ?

This might be a good project for the benchmark lovers on the list.
Generally, formula types are faster than built-in types. The
mandelbrot may be an exception because it is implemented in
assembler. If you use the debug=90 you will see that the mandelbrot
slows up - this makes the mandelbrot use C code typical of most of
the built-in types rather than assembler.

However, we're not going to jump in and remove built-in types without
a lot more thought., if ever. I was just throwing out the idea to see
what the reaction would be, and got some good feedback. When you
implement a built-in type using a formula, the formula has to reflect
the same bailout option as the builtin type. Perhaps we need a
standard way to embed the bailout options in formulas. We could
define a function bailout() that would be determined by the current
bailout function, and called at the bottom of a formula where the
current bailout test goes. If we did this, then it would be easier
to make a formula behave like a  built-in type.

The bottom line is that we're not seriously considering removing
built-in types now, but we are actively experimenting with removing
integer math.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dirk Meyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 19 Oct 1997 18:37:51 +0200

Tim Wegner wrote:

> Generally, formula types are faster than built-in types.

Really? Faster? Then you should improve the formula parser to
compile C code and compile Fractint with it :-)

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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) if you are removed from the list
Date: 19 Oct 1997 11:37:48 -0600

From time to time a list member's email address might not work, and
all the mail being sent by the list bounces back to me. There are a
variety of reasons why this could happen; your local machine might
be down or there might be some problem on the net.

I have learned not to panic when this happens; when the list first
started I unsubscribed a couple of people right away, then realized
the problem was very temporary.

What I do now is wait a couple of days. If mail is still not going
through after a few days, I unsubscribe the non-working email address
from the list.

If you discover you are off the list, and want to be on it, just
resubscribe. Hopefully whatever caused the earlier problem will be
over. Unfortunately the same problem that prevents list mail
from getting to you also prevents me from sending you a friendly
email describing the problem. If I do unsubscribe you I assure you
it's not personal. It just means that your email address appears not
to be working. It may someday happen that I have to unsubscribe
people for other reasons, but that hasn't happened yet; we seem to be
a civil bunch <grin!>

Folks can help by unsubscribing when you know you email address is
going away. You can only unsubscribe from the same address that you
are subscribed under, but if your email address has changed, try
unsubscribing the old address anyway - your request comes to my
attention and is easily accomplished by hand.

If any folks are experienced running lists, I'd be interested to hear
how you handle the situation of apparently bad email addresses of
subscribers (how long you wait etc. etc.) (Send me email please,
don't post to the list because the information won't interest most
list members.) So far the list administration task is not too bad.

Thanks. The list seems to me to be going well. I'd encourage shy
beginners to ask questions. List members have been good about
answering questions. I've intentionally invited more technical
topics to complement the fractal-art list, so much list traffic is
too technical for some people's taste. But do remember that less
techical discussion and beginner questions are also welcome.

Tim



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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 19 Oct 1997 12:02:15 -0600

Dirk wrote:

> Really? Faster? Then you should improve the formula parser to
> compile C code and compile Fractint with it :-)

You joke, but as I mentioned in another message, the formula parser
literally CAN compile formula code, though we don't (yet) let you use
it that way.

The fact that the parser is so fast (if you have a 387 or
equivalent) is a tribute to Chuck Ebbert's expert programming. Your
fractal is generated with variables that are kept almost entirely
in the coprocessor stack registers where they can be rapidly
accessed. Whenever possible, computations are done directly with
built-in coprocessor functions. His optimizer avoids whenever
possible moving numbers between memory and the coprocessor.

C code optimizers are better than they were, but they haven't caught
up with Chuck yet <grin!>

Tim

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law
Date: 19 Oct 1997 12:39:22 -0500



Andrew Schoonmaker wrote:

> At 10:53 10/16/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >In article <[e-mail]> ,
> >    Andrew Schoonmaker <[e-mail]>  writes:
> >> A couple of questions...  One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period
> >> 64"?
> >
> >I'll take a stab at it... each "bud" in M is a basin of attraction.
> >Inside each "bud" is a point c, where z := z^2 + c is a cycle.  The
> >length of the cycle is the period referred to; we can label the entire
> >basin of attraction with the period of this point c.  The main cardiod
> >is period 1, the bud along the real axis to the left of the main
> >cardiod is period 2, the next bud to the left of that along the real
> >axis is period 4, and so on.  The period doubling as you progress down
> >the real line can be viewed in fractint by looking at the bifurcation
> >fractal type.  The bifurcation fractal type is a visualization of the
> >dynamics of M along the real line.
> >
> >Clearer or muddier now? :)
>
> Oh, that's about what I thought you meant.  Doesn't Fractint have some
> internal coloring scheme which displays this?
>

Yes it does.  Just set the inside coloring scheme to per.  Then the inside of the
M-set is colored according to what period the point settles down to.  However,
unless you use a lot of iterations, the results aren't very good, and it tends to
slow down the calculation immensely.

Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal
Date: 18 Oct 1997 10:36:55 -0500

If I understand what you are saying. My thoughts are "NOOOOO"!
On second thought: O.K.
If it trims the sails so Fractint  can chart new waters (real visual
hunh?) It would probably be a good idea.
However, You should remember that a lot of fractint users are not serious
programmers, like me, and they like the ability to push a few quick
buttons and get results. This is what helped inspire me to learn more
about fractint so I could write my own. I think it could be quite
frustrating to try and understand fractals and write them at the same
time. Even discouraging.

Perhaps putting a little more resources into Fractint 20's demo and
tutorials (note plural).
I know that some of you are realllly deep into this stuff, but us shallow
divers want to enjoy the pool too!

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke


>Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code,
>what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types
>that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We
>could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in
>types.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited
Date: 18 Oct 1997 10:38:39 -0500

Is this going to be 32 bit as in Win '95?

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) if you are removed from the list
Date: 20 Oct 1997 01:03:06 -0400 (EDT)


Well yours works better than the djgpp mailing list. A bad address on it,
and the listserv sends bounce messages to every subscriber. Your listserv
software is evidently smarter: it recognizes a bounce message and sends it
to you instead...

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 20 Oct 1997 01:07:51 -0400 (EDT)


Does the parser compile the formula directly to native machine
instructions and point a function pointer at it??
Otherwise, what does it do, byte codes? How *do* you compile to machien
instructions and then asim a pointer at it, is it as simple as this?

  char fbuf[MAX];
  int (*do_point)(double x, double y);
  char *ip=fbuf;
  ...
  (int)fbuf[ip]=some_int; ip++; ip++;
  ...
  (long)fbuf[ip]=some_long; ip+=4;
  ...
  do_point=(int (*)(double, double))fbuf;
  return do_point;



--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) New at fractint
Date: 19 Oct 1997 23:44:18 -0700

Tim wrote:
>Thanks. The list seems to me to be going well. I'd encourage shy
beginners to ask questions. List members have been good about
answering questions. I've intentionally invited more technical
topics to complement the fractal-art list, so much list traffic is
too technical for some people's taste. But do remember that less
technical discussion and beginner questions are also welcome.

Yes all of this technical stuff makes my head hurt. But I guess somebody
needs to know. Myself I'm grateful that there are people out there that
have the knowledge to create such nice fractals, My wife and I enjoy
viewing them. Just recently did I figureout how to save the frm. &par.
files to look at in fractint. anyway now for the stupid question (then
again maybe not)can the formula be like some famous eqaution or
molecular structer or something along that line.Its late so the spelling
is bad and not sure if I'm getting my point across.
 thanks Gary

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) if you are removed from the list
Date: 20 Oct 1997 01:03:06 -0400 (EDT)


Well yours works better than the djgpp mailing list. A bad address on it,
and the listserv sends bounce messages to every subscriber. Your listserv
software is evidently smarter: it recognizes a bounce message and sends it
to you instead...

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 20 Oct 1997 01:07:51 -0400 (EDT)


Does the parser compile the formula directly to native machine
instructions and point a function pointer at it??
Otherwise, what does it do, byte codes? How *do* you compile to machien
instructions and then asim a pointer at it, is it as simple as this?

  char fbuf[MAX];
  int (*do_point)(double x, double y);
  char *ip=fbuf;
  ...
  (int)fbuf[ip]=some_int; ip++; ip++;
  ...
  (long)fbuf[ip]=some_long; ip+=4;
  ...
  do_point=(int (*)(double, double))fbuf;
  return do_point;



--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) New at fractint
Date: 20 Oct 1997 08:32:53 -0500

Oh yeah.
Last week I posted a fractal called Sunglasses which I used the "form" of
the quadratic equation (x=ax^2 + bx + c).
Only it looked sort of like this.

Sunglasses (xaxis)  { ; Merle L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0,
    a = pixel,
    b = pixel + 1,
    c = pixel * 2:

    z = a*z*z + b*z + c
    }

Do you see it?
Well, it's certainly no breakthrough, but it looks cool, and if you zoom
into it you may find some nice images.
Sorry I didn't include a par file. But I'm at work without Fractint :(

later,

Nuke (Merle L. Newsted Jr.)
On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:44:18 -0700 [e-mail] writes:
>Tim wrote:

 Just recently did I figureout how to save the frm. &par.
>files to look at in fractint. anyway now for the stupid question (then
>again maybe not)can the formula be like some famous eqaution or
>molecular structer or something along that line.Its late so the
>spelling
>is bad and not sure if I'm getting my point across.
> thanks Gary
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
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>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 20 Oct 1997 10:24:30 -0700


Will Fractint abandon gif format?

What is the relationship of Fractint and its users given the statements at
this site?

http://www.unisys.com/LeadStory/lzwfaq.html


Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 21 Oct 1997 00:18:01 -0400 (EDT)

>Will Fractint abandon gif format?


Format:     Pros:                Cons:
GIF         * Inline webbable.   * Patented, although they let the SSG off the
            * Backlward compat.    hook.
            * Good compression   * 256 color limit.
JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lossy compression.
            * Any bit-depth.
TGA         * Any bit-depth.     * Lousy compression (TGAs are HUUUGE!)
                                 * Not inline webbable.
PNG         * Good compression.  * Not (yet) inline webbable.
            * Free compression.
            * Any bit-depth.
BMP         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
                                 * Lousy compression.
                                 * Not inline-webbable.
PCX         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
            * Good compression   * Not inline webbable.
POT         * Any bit-depth.     * Hardly supported anywhere.
            * Backward compat.   * Not inline-webbable.
            * Good compression.
PICT        * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Mac OSes.
                                 * Mediocre compression.
                                 * Not inline-webbable.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jon Camp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) mandelbrot to julia
Date: 21 Oct 1997 00:23:58 -0500

Is it now or will it be possible in future versions, to pass abitrary
precision paramaters from the mandelbrot set to the julia set with the
spacebar or some similaraly simple method?


In Him,
     Jon Camp

Valparasio University <><


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) file format comparison
Date: 21 Oct 1997 10:25:13 -0600


This isn't a bad summary, but not that "any bit depth" refers to being
able to support 24-bits/pixel as opposed to only 8-bits/pixel.  That's
not quite the same thing as "any bit depth" because you can't have
arbitrarily deep pixels in these formats.  Also, "lossy compression"
was listed as a con for JPG.  With 24-bit fractals, GIF also has
"lossy compression", so its all relative.  Others might consider the
high compression ratio of JPEG to be a Pro, which wasn't listed in
that table.

PNG should be supported by the netscrape/exploder now that they've
both had a major release, although the details on the PNG web site are
a little sketchy. (<URL: http://www.wco.com/~png/>)

POT files are really GIF files, so while they aren't intrinsically
understood to be 16-bits/pixel hacks except by fractint, they can
still be manipulated by external utilities.

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)  writes:
> >Will Fractint abandon gif format?
>
>
> Format:     Pros:                Cons:
> GIF         * Inline webbable.   * Patented, although they let the SSG off th
e
>             * Backlward compat.    hook.
>             * Good compression   * 256 color limit.
> JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lossy compression.
>             * Any bit-depth.
> TGA         * Any bit-depth.     * Lousy compression (TGAs are HUUUGE!)
>                                  * Not inline webbable.
> PNG         * Good compression.  * Not (yet) inline webbable.
>             * Free compression.
>             * Any bit-depth.
> BMP         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
>                                  * Lousy compression.
>                                  * Not inline-webbable.
> PCX         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
>             * Good compression   * Not inline webbable.
> POT         * Any bit-depth.     * Hardly supported anywhere.
>             * Backward compat.   * Not inline-webbable.
>             * Good compression.
> PICT        * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Mac OSes.
>                                  * Mediocre compression.
>                                  * Not inline-webbable.

--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 21 Oct 1997 12:36:43 -0500



Paul Derbyshire wrote:

> Format:     Pros:                Cons:
> GIF         * Inline webbable.   * Patented, although they let the SSG off the
>             * Backlward compat.    hook.
>             * Good compression   * 256 color limit.
> JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lossy compression.
>             * Any bit-depth.
> TGA         * Any bit-depth.     * Lousy compression (TGAs are HUUUGE!)
>                                  * Not inline webbable.
> PNG         * Good compression.  * Not (yet) inline webbable.
>             * Free compression.
>             * Any bit-depth.
> BMP         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
>                                  * Lousy compression.
>                                  * Not inline-webbable.
> PCX         * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Microsoft OSes.
>             * Good compression   * Not inline webbable.
> POT         * Any bit-depth.     * Hardly supported anywhere.
>             * Backward compat.   * Not inline-webbable.
>             * Good compression.
> PICT        * Any bit-depth.     * Not widely supported non-Mac OSes.
>                                  * Mediocre compression.
>                                  * Not inline-webbable.

    Seems to me that if Fractint wants to support saving pictures rendered in
true-color mode, that it'll have to dump GIF and find another format (assuming the
chart is accurate in saying that GIF only supports 256 colors).  It might be a
good idea to dump GIF anyway, given the patent and all.  A suggestion: TGA format,
since Fractint already supports it!
    Speaking of which, I've had some strange results with 3-D TGA renderings.
I've made a TGA file that Windows says is 0 bytes, but looks perfect when loaded
into MGI Photosuite, my all-purpose picture viewer.  I've had some other huge TGA
files that are just all the same shade of gray except for the sky.  I finally
figured out that TGA only works if you choose light-sourcing in the 3-D rendering
options.  But I can't figure out how a zero-byte file can reproduce all that
detail!  :)
    My guess is that my Win-doze is smashed somewhere.  Oh well.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]

ps: Janet Reno is now officially kewl, you know why.






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 21 Oct 1997 11:46:51 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>  writes:

[you might want to start using lines of shorter length so that your
messages are more easily quoted by others]

    >     Seems to me that if Fractint wants to support saving pictures
    rendered in > true-color mode, that it'll have to dump GIF and find
    another format (assumin g the > chart is accurate in saying that GIF
    only supports 256 colors).  It might be a > good idea to dump GIF
    anyway, given the patent and all.  A suggestion: TGA fo rmat, > since
    Fractint already supports it!

Tim has already said he will be adding PNG support for 24-bit
save/loading of images.  PNG is superior to TGA in that it has
nice compression.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 21 Oct 1997 20:39:48 +0200

Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window of
course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems to
complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows tells
me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
My question: Is this normal behavior of fractint or should I somewhere in
Windows change some setting?
Hoping for an answer
Roelof Jonker

---
The right of free speech implicates the duty to think


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: (fractint) Fractal Books
Date: 21 Oct 1997 16:44:08 -0400

At 10:30 PM 10/9/97 -0700, Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Also, I am considering plunking down $50 at my local bookstore for a
>copy of The Science of Fractal Images, which I think I have seen
>referred to here a few times. Is this a good book? I am trying to learn
>more, more, more of the technical stuff and am looking for lots of math
>formulas to play with. Perhaps something has been written since that is
>better? Any help wld be appreciated.

Peter:
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. There is a book called Chaos and Fractals:
New Frontiers of Science by Peitgen, Jurgens, and Saupe that you may want
to check out. It is fairly recent (1994) and I think two of its authors are
also the authors of Science of Fractal Images. It is a huge tome - almost
1000 pages, and looks like it is full of useful information. The authors
state that it is not written in the 'popular style' but also not written
specifically for mathematicians. It seems to contain numerous formulas,
however. Perhaps one day I'll have time to read it.

Nick
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) How does boundary scanning work?
Date: 21 Oct 1997 19:05:27 -0400 (EDT)

Hi, I'm new to this list. Sorry to bother you with this question, but how
does the boundary scanning method work? I would appreciate a clear
explanation and some simple source code for drawing the M-set by this method.

Thanks,
 Matthew Reece

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) sci.fractals FAQ
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:46:40 -0300 (ADT)


The October 21, 1997 edition of the sci.fractals FAQ is now available.

news:sci.fractals
http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/
http://fractal.mta.ca/sci.fractals-faq/
http://graffiti.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/sci.fractals-faq/faq.html
and other fine mirrors on a server near you.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) New at fractint
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

Gary asked:

> anyway now for the stupid question (then
> again maybe not)can the formula be like some famous eqaution or
> molecular structer or something along that line.

The truth is that you don't need any mathematical knowledge to fool
with formulas, just enough knowledge of the formula language to write
formulas that are syntacically correct. The best way to do this is
modify existing formulas.

When I give demonstrations to high school math classes, I have
fun writing bizarre formulas bristling with important-sounding
transcendental functions like sinh(z) or exp(z). You can just about
always get an interesting fractal in this way. I don't know about
molecular structure, but you can certainly model fractint formulas
after famous equations. I'm not sure the results are any better than
just typing in some hocus pocus though <g!>

Here's one I just wrote down with zero mathematical insight. I
challenge the list to come up with some nice PARs using this.

Tim's_fract { ; Example of a more or less random formula
  z = Pixel:
   ; I have no clue what the point of this formula is
   ; it came straight from my subconcious <g!>
  z = (sinh(z*z + log(z)))/(z*z + 2)
  |z| <= 16
  }

Let me also say that while non-mathematical artists can show
brilliant creativity with formulas, understanding math can add
another dimension to fractal art. Sylvie Gallet, for one, is a master
at applying her knowledge of mathematics to the art of building
formulas that create fascinating fractals.

Tim





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

> > PNG         * Good compression.  * Not (yet) inline webbable.
> >             * Free compression.
> >             * Any bit-depth.

The new Internet Explorer supports PNG. However I hear from the PNG
team that Microsoft didn't do that good a job the first time around,
so we're not home free. I'll celebrate when both IE and Netscape have
*good* inline webbable implementations of PNG.

>     Seems to me that if Fractint wants to support saving pictures rendered in
> true-color mode, that it'll have to dump GIF and find another format (assuming the
> chart is accurate in saying that GIF only supports 256 colors).  It might be a
> good idea to dump GIF anyway, given the patent and all.  A suggestion: TGA format,
> since Fractint already supports it!

We're committed to PNG. It can replace GIF as well as support
truecolor.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest     prop
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

Jay asked:

> Will Fractint abandon gif format?

IMHO, yes. We'll leave the ability to read GIF files for the first
few versions after we add PNG support as a user convenience.

> What is the relationship of Fractint and its users given the statements at
> this site?

Realize that Stone Soup is much more than one programmer, so this
isn't necessarily the Stone Soup view (if there is such a thing),
but here's my two cents worth.

I was a member of the PNG specification development team from the
beginning and am listed as a co-author of the PNG spec. I support
PNG, was instrumental in adding PNG to POV-Ray, and am committing to
adding PNG to fractint.

The main reason that Fractint doesn't support PNG yet is that
Fractint's already-overburdened DOS medium model development
platform can't handle encoding PNG images (it can handle decoding
them) due to memory limitations. I've figured out a kludgy but
workable way around this. I have already added PNG writing to my
personal experimental Xfract version. I worked hard to add Libpng
and Zlib support for the medium model. This makes adding PNG to
fractint at least a possibility, but the memory requirements for
Fractint are just too hard. PNG is easy to add to any program that
has a 32 bit memory model.

I was actually a Unisys employee at Johnson Space Center for six
months. However the Shuttle contractor dumped Unisys and we all
changed badges a year ago. I have worked for the United Space
Alliance since "the coup". Strangely, nobody I met at JSC's Unisys
branch knew anything about the lzw patent or Unisys's Welch patent
office.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) mandelbrot to julia
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

Jon asked:

> Is it now or will it be possible in future versions, to pass abitrary
> precision paramaters from the mandelbrot set to the julia set with the
> spacebar or some similaraly simple method?

It's not possible now, but it certainly could be in the future.
Only a few fractal types and options at present work with arbitrary
precision. So far, no one has requested any extension of the
capabilities. My theory is that interest in arbitrary precision is
more theoretical than artistic. Plus it is time consuming. The
space of possible  arbitrary precision fractals is so great that it
satisfies those brave enough to explore, at least for now. It's too
slow for the artists to use it much.

I am hopeful that adding the synchronous orbits algorith will make
deep zoom exploration more feasible.

After Fractint is ported to 32 bit environments, we can consider
extending how much of fractint's feature set work with arbitrary
precision. I'd like to see the formula parser extended to both
arbitrary precision and 4D algebras, with some 3D rendering mehanisms
that are better than the current depth modulation used with julibrot.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

Paul asked:

> Does the parser compile the formula directly to native machine
> instructions and point a function pointer at it??

What the parser actually does is go through an array of function
pointers, invoking the functions each in turn, and maintains a stack
of arguments for the functions to use. This is not a true compiler.

However, fractint's source code contains logic that makes it operate
differently if COMPILER is defined in parserfp.c. In this case, the
code for the array of functions is copied to a buffer in memory, and
execution branches to that address when the formula is run. This is
literally a built-in compiler. You might also call it self-modifying
code <grin!>.

At various times I have gotten this to work, but have judged it too
risky to put in the release fractint version. You are welcome to play
with it if you have a suitable compiler environment. I can't promise
that it still works; I haven't tried it for a long time.

Chuck Ebbert doesn't have easy access to a DOS compiler environment
so he hasn't worked on the code for a long time. George Martin and I
maintain it, and neither of us knows enough to seriously play with
the COMPILER option. George added the if-else feature to the parser C
code, and I ported it to assembler.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 21 Oct 1997 22:27:38 -0600

Rich said:

> Tim has already said he will be adding PNG support for 24-bit
> save/loading of images.  PNG is superior to TGA in that it has
> nice compression.

Absolutely. PNG can also replace GIF for 256-color images. It
supports up to 64 bit truecolor as well.

The projects I am working on at the moment are:

PNG
Truecolor
Synchronous orbits using arbitrary precision
removing integer math

These are all ambitious projects. There will be no more incremental
versions of 19.x. The next release will be a major new version.

Of course we are free to change are plans at any time <g!>

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ian Kaplan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 21 Oct 1997 16:41:51 -0400 (EDT)

> Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window of
> course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems to
> complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows tells
> me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
> translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
> fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
> When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
Sender: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: fractint

   What video hardware are you using, with what settings? If your video
card is configured right and using the latest win95 drivers, it's quite
possible you've discovered a win95 incompatibility, and there's not much
to be done for it. If you tell us what the hardware is, I'm sure someone
will pop up and tell you they have it working, or that they have the same
problem.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "GREIG SOMMERVILLE" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) slit island technique
Date: 22 Oct 1997 12:43:13 GMT


 Hello
 I am a final year student at The Robert Gordon University in
 Aberdeen, Scotland.  As part of my final year I am required to
submit a project.  The title of my project is The Fracture Analysis
of  Stainless Steel Using Fractal Analysis.
 The project involves using Charpy impact tests to fracture samples
of  super duplex st. steel at different temperatures, in the hope of
 finding a relationship between the steels fracture toughness and the
 fractal dimension.
 The mathematical analysis used to find the fractal dimension is the
 slit island technique.
 So far, I have had great difficulty trying to find any information
on  this subject except from
 "Fractal Character of Surfaces of Metals" Mandlebrot,Benoit
 and
 "Fractal Analysis of Fracture Surfaces" Underwood, Ervin
 Therefore any possible help on the subject would be greatly
recieved.
  For example, possible books relating to the "slit island technique"
 or any journal articles relating to the subject.

 Yours Sincerely
 Greig Sommerville


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 22 Oct 1997 07:52:55 -0500



Try creating a "shortcut" on your desktop, and be sure to set the screen
to "Full Screen" (right click the shortcut icon and look in properties,
click "screen" tab)

I had the same problem too, but now it works for all aplicable settings.
later,
nuke

On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:39:48 +0200 "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized
>window of
>course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems
>to
>complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows
>tells
>me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
>translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
>fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
>When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
>My question: Is this normal behavior of fractint or should I somewhere
>in
>Windows change some setting?
>Hoping for an answer
>Roelof Jonker
>
>---
>The right of free speech implicates the duty to think
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
>Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
>Administrator:  [e-mail]
>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kerry Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Tim's random formula
Date: 22 Oct 1997 10:24:02 -0700 (MST)

Tim Wegner posted a "random" formula, and challenged us to come us with
interesting par files for it.  Here's mine.  (It's best done at high res
and anti-aliased down for viewing)

blue_tim           {
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm formulaname=tim's_fract
  center-mag=-1.25263715900483200/+1.44808875819554800/4810.826
  float=y maxiter=256 inside=0 decomp=256 periodicity=0 passes=1
  colors=001001<10>6BL6CM7DO8EP9FR<5>CL_CM`DNaEObEPc<8>KYmLZnM_n<6>RftSgtT\
  huUiuVjv<5>apybqycrydsyftyhuzivzkwznxzpyztzz<2>lwzjvziuz<2>drybqyapx`ox<\
  3>XkwVjvViv<3>RetQdsPcrObqOap<12>EQdEPcDOa<2>BLZBKXAJWAIU9HT9GR8FQ<11>13\
  6124012000012124<9>6CM7DN7EP8FQ8GS<4>BLZCM_DN`DOaEPc<15>PcrQdsResSftTgtU\
  hu<3>XlwYmw_nx<2>bqydryesygtyhuz<3>ryzzzztzzpyznxzkwz<2>ftydsycrybqy<10>\
  RftQesQdr<6>KYmKXlJWkIVjHUiHTh<6>DM_CLZBKYAJXAIV<8>59I48G47E36C35A<3>113
  cyclerange=0/255
  }

frm:Tim's_fract { ; Example of a more or less random formula
  z = Pixel:
   ; I have no clue what the point of this formula is
   ; it came straight from my subconscious <g!>
  z = (sinh(z*z + log(z)))/(z*z + 2)
  |z| <= 16
  }

Kerry Mitchell
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
Date: 22 Oct 1997 11:37:59 -0600


Since fractint allows you to write arbitrary formulas for fractals,
has anyone considered writing a program that uses genetic algorithm
techniques to "invent" formulas for fractint?  I don't imagine the
process would be very interactive, more like you'd probably setup
things to go at night and then give it some user feedback in the
morning <g>.  Just wondered if anyone else has thought of doing this.
I can think of ways to do it with a perl script, but I am too occupied
with other projects to explore it at the moment...
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) slit island technique
Date: 22 Oct 1997 14:42:39 -0400

> The title of my project is The Fracture Analysis
> of  Stainless Steel Using Fractal Analysis.
> So far, I have had great difficulty trying to find any information
> on  this subject
> Therefore any possible help on the subject would be greatly recieved.

        There was a very good french book called
        "Precis d'analyse d'image" by Michel COSTER and
        Jean-Louis CHERMANT, edited in 1985 by the CNRS
        (french National Center for Scientific Research)

        This book was very oriented on mathematic morphologie,
        granulometrie, cristallographie but, ... I don't know
        if the fractal aspects of your probleme is here.

        May be you can go to http://www.cnrs.fr/ and search
        or ask about this book.


        Thierry.    (Toulouse, France)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) How does boundary scanning work?
Date: 22 Oct 1997 13:27:41 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail]  writes:
> Hi, I'm new to this list. Sorry to bother you with this question, but how
> does the boundary scanning method work? I would appreciate a clear
> explanation and some simple source code for drawing the M-set by this method.

I think there's an explanation of the algorithm in "Science of Fractal
Images" by Peitgen.  You should be able to find this book in a local
library.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal Books
Date: 22 Oct 1997 13:29:26 -0600


Peitgen has written three books, each successive book being easier to
understand by a non-mathematician:

    Beauty of Fractals (you may have seen "BOF.PAR" in the fractint
    distribution; BOF = Beauty of Fractals)

    Science of Fractal Images

    Chaos and Fractals

Each book was larger than its predecessor as well :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fabrizio" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 22 Oct 1997 23:55:39 +0000


> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:39:48 +0200
> From: "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
>
> Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window of
> course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems to
> complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows tells
> me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
> translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
> fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
> When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
> My question: Is this normal behavior of fractint or should I somewhere in
> Windows change some setting?
> Hoping for an answer
> Roelof Jonker

I have EXACTLY the same trouble (except that the error message is in
Italian :-)).

My system is:

Intel Pentium 133, 16 MB EDO Ram, S3 Trio 64+  1Mb, Win 95.

Any help ?

Thanks in advance,

Fabrizio Cellerini



P.S. Is the version 19.6 of Fractint for Windows going to be
released  soon ?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 22 Oct 1997 15:28:06 -0700



> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:39:48 +0200
> From: "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
>
> Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window
of
> course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems to
> complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows tells
> me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
> translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
> fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
> When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
> My question: Is this normal behavior of fractint or should I somewhere in
> Windows change some setting?
> Hoping for an answer
> Roelof Jonker

And Fabrizio Cellerini agrees, he has the same problem.


Hmmm....   Is there any chance another task is grabbing the focus (like a
screen  saver, emailer, etc.) and putting the DOS mode Fractint back
into window mode while the other task does something. Then immediately
Windows will tell you Fractint screwed up, because it can't switch modes.

Put Fractint into 320x200x256 mode on an image, press Alt-Enter making it a
window.
Now click the upper left corner in the MSDOS symbol pulling down the menu.
Click properties at the bottom.   Choose the misc tab view and make sure
'allow screen saver' is NOT checked. Now close the popup and your back at
the
Fractint window. Press Alt-Enter going back to DOS mode.

Now see if the problem occurs again.  Try the 800x600x256 mode.


Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Evan J Hall)
Subject: (fractint) How do I make my own fractals?
Date: 22 Oct 1997 19:49:01 -0500

Where do I go to make my own fractals?  I'm sure I could stick in the
formula, but where in the program do I go to enter it?

+
|  :)Evan Hall
|  [e-mail]
|  My other computer is a Commodore 64
+---------------------------------------+

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Evan J Hall)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 22 Oct 1997 19:42:34 -0500

> JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lousy compression.

One of the pros should be that JPG's are much smaller anyway, so you
don't really need to compress them.  Also, how hard would it be to make
file type a changeable option?

+
|  :)Evan Hall
|  [e-mail]
|  My other computer is a Commodore 64
+---------------------------------------+

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Still having problems with Fractal-Art.
Date: 22 Oct 1997 20:08:45 -0500

.
My apologies for sending this to both of the Fractal Mail Lists, but
I've gotten no reply from Mr. Noring on previous attempts to contact
him, nor has any of my recent email made it to
mailto:[e-mail] .

There seems to be a problem with the server for the "Fractal Art
Discussion List", or maybe it's just a filter to keep some individuals
shut out.  But I have not seen any of my email go through since the last
one on Saturday, 27 Sept. 1997 at 00:52:33 CDT.  I have been copying the
original posters email address when replying, seems to be the only way
they will see my messages.

Most times there is no acknowlegement that it was ever sent (other than
my own copied SENT MAIL folder).  Occassionally, I will eventually
receive back a message that reads as follows:

______________________________________________________________________
  ApparentlyFrom:  <>
        Received:  from worldnet.att.net ([135.173.52.20])
                   by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net
                   (post.office MTA v2.0 0613)
                   with SMTP id AAA13221 for
                   <[e-mail]>;
                   Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:24:48 +0000
      Message-ID:  <971023002449.19591@mtigwc03>
X-Mozilla-Status:  0001


We are unable to deliver your message (attached below) to:

        <[e-mail]>

The delivery failed with reason:

        Remote server failed

We regret the inconvenience.

                [e-mail]

Message follows:


Received:  from plee2 ([12.67.0.65]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net
           (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA15000;
           Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:13:26 +0000
Message-ID:  <[e-mail]>
Reply-To:  [e-mail]
Organization:  Nahee Enterprises
X-Mailer:  Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; U)
MIME-Version:  1.0
CC:  [e-mail]
References:  <[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit
______________________________________________________________________


Now lets see if this one gets through!!!!

P.N.L.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Tim's formula
Date: 22 Oct 1997 21:04:40 -0500

Here's my try at getting an interesting picture out of Tim's fractal.

tim's spiral       { ; nice try
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm   ;change formulafile
if it's somewhere else
  formulaname=Tim's_fract passes=2
  center-mag=+0.57315291829606640/+0.06912368999684013/506315.5
  float=y decomp=256

colors=000z00<53>zY0zZ0z_0z`0z`0<34>zy0zz0yz0xz0<43>2z00z00y1<44>02x00z0\

  0z<30>S0zT0zV0z<15>x0zz0zz0v<13>z00
  }
Use the highest resolution you can (I can use 1600x1200 because I have a
Diamond card :)  )

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --

-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) How do I make my own fractals?
Date: 22 Oct 1997 23:04:18 -0700

Evan J Hall wrote:
>
> Where do I go to make my own fractals?  I'm sure I could stick in the
> formula, but where in the program do I go to enter it?

Just figured this one out myself, so I'll take a stab at answering. I'm
assuming you know how to write formulas for Fractint's parser (if not
there is a good HTML tutorial on the Fractint web page by Bradley
Beacham (the formulas look kind of like little C programs), and I
apologize if you already know this. Either write your formulas into
Fractint's Fractint.frm file (you can open this file in DOS using the
edit utility) or start your own .frm file (say, ejh.frm), in which you
can write your formulas, and save it as a plain text file with the
extension .frm. Then from the main Fractint menu, type "t" for fractal
type and choose "formula" as your fractal type. If you have saved your
formula in Fractint.frm you will see it somewhere on the screen among a
bunch of others. Otherwise, if your have started your own .fmr file,
press F6 and then select yours; you should then see the names of all the
formulas you have written in it and you can select the one you want.
Hope this is of some help and not totally confusing. It's much easier to
do than to explain.
                        Good luck,
                        Peter

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 08:39:37 -0300 (ADT)

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Evan J Hall wrote:

> > JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lousy compression.
>
> One of the pros should be that JPG's are much smaller anyway, so you
> don't really need to compress them.  Also, how hard would it be to make
> file type a changeable option?

JPEG (JPEG/JFIF typically) images are smaller because the format uses a
losy compression scheme (JPEG), whereas the GIF images are compressed with
loseless compression (lzw). JPEG compression literatly throws away data to
get such great compression. It trys to be smart and throw away data you're
not going to notice when it is missing.

The problem is making it fit in the DOS memory models. Both, making the
code fit in the FractInt program itself and preforming the compression or
decompression in RAM. At least that's my take on the situtation. (I'm a
UNIX programmer typically)

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roland Silver <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Where get FractInt?
Date: 23 Oct 1997 06:20:37 -0600

I just entered the PC world via gift of a PC, so now I can run FractInt.
Where can I get it?
Does it run under Windows 95?


-- Rollo Silver <[e-mail]>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Riley  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 10:10:10 -0700

  From: Evan J Hall <[e-mail]>
  Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
> One of the pros should be that JPG's are much smaller anyway, so you
> don't really need to compress them.  Also, how hard would it be to make
> file type a changeable option?
---------------End of Original Message-----------------

JPEG works best on continuous tone images. On images that contain discreet
color boundaries, such as FRACTINT images, the "blocky" nature of the
compressions algorithm shows up as rectangular noise. It's one reason that
JPEG is not suitable for images that contain text and I think that most
people would not find it suitable for most fractal images.

Also, I don't think that JPEG supports a info field for saving PAR data, like
GIF (and, I believe, PNG).

 -----------------------------------------
|               Tim Riley                 |
| Institute for Telecommunication Science |
|     National Telecommunications and     |
|       Information Administration        |
|          US Dept. of Commerce           |
|            Boulder, Colorado            |
|      E-mail:[e-mail]      |
|     Per favore spenga le Sue scarpe     |
|  davanti abbandonare il nave spaziale.  |
 -----------------------------------------


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike or Linda Allison" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Where get FractInt?
Date: 23 Oct 1997 09:21:27 -0700

Hi, Rollo!

You can get Fractint v 19.6 from the spanky pages:

http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/getting.html

I understand that it will run under Windows 95, but I don't do that.  I
exit to DOS to run it because once I start, I "fractal" for the next 8
hours or so :)))

Glad you're joining the PC world!
Linda

----------
> From: Roland Silver <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: (fractint) Where get FractInt?
> Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 5:20 AM
>
> I just entered the PC world via gift of a PC, so now I can run FractInt.
> Where can I get it?
> Does it run under Windows 95?
>
>
> -- Rollo Silver <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
> Post Message:   [e-mail]
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 10:44:23 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Evan J Hall)  writes:
> > JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lousy compression.
>
> One of the pros should be that JPG's are much smaller anyway, so you
> don't really need to compress them.  Also, how hard would it be to make
> file type a changeable option?

I think he meant "lossy" compression, not "lousy compression", which
would imply that JPEG files weren't very well compressed.  "Lossy"
compression means that the file isn't compressed in a pixel accurate
fashion.  For 24-bit fractals, GIF is "lossy compression".
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 10:46:06 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    mctaylor <[e-mail]>  writes:
> [...] whereas the GIF images are compressed with
> loseless compression (lzw).

Only if your data is 8bits/pixel... after that you have to do tricks
like the POT file format or quantize to 256 colors, which loses
information present in an original 24-bit image.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 10:49:16 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Tim Riley <[e-mail]>  writes:
> JPEG works best on continuous tone images.

If you're rendering 24-bit fractals, you'll find that many of them do
contain continuously varying tone, which is the whole point of using
24-bit in the first place.  JPEG works well for some fractal images,
but not for others.  There is a lossless form of JPEG, but I don't
believe the Independent JPEG Group's code supports it yet.  Since that
is the code base most people use to support JPEG I/O, most programs
don't support lossless JPEG.

> On images that contain discreet
> color boundaries, such as FRACTINT images, the "blocky" nature of the
> compressions algorithm shows up as rectangular noise.

The specific name for this is "Gibb's phenomenon".

> It's one reason that
> JPEG is not suitable for images that contain text and I think that most
> people would not find it suitable for most fractal images.

The user should be given the choice.  JPEG is widely supported in
image viewers and many fractal images don't suffer from excessive
artifacts.

> Also, I don't think that JPEG supports a info field for saving PAR data, like
> GIF (and, I believe, PNG).

Yes, it does; just add the PAR file as a comment string.  No big deal.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest
Date: 23 Oct 1997 13:21:33 -0400 (EDT)

>
>> JPG         * Inline webbable.   * Lousy compression.
>
>One of the pros should be that JPG's are much smaller anyway, so you
>don't really need to compress them.  Also, how hard would it be to make
>file type a changeable option?

That's misquoted... I never said JPG's had lousy compression I said they
had LOSSY compression. I.e. WYS isn't always WYG. TGA and BMP have lousy
compression, as in, they are HUUGE!

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Where get FractInt?
Date: 23 Oct 1997 13:26:04 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I just entered the PC world via gift of a PC, so now I can run FractInt.
>Where can I get it?
>Does it run under Windows 95?
>
>
>-- Rollo Silver <[e-mail]>

http://spanky.triumf.ca/fractint/


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 23 Oct 1997 23:00:17 +0200

Thanks everybody for helping out. The suggestion of nuke did the trick. Why
and how? I probably never understand, but then win95 is'nt for
understanding. I surely will enjoy again the images generated by fractint.
By the way my video = ATI  Xpression+  (direct draw)  2MB
Regards
Roelof Jonker
-----------
The right of free speech implicates the duty to think



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ian Kaplan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 22 Oct 1997 19:46:50 -0400 (EDT)

> > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:39:48 +0200
> > From: "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
> > Subject: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
> >
> > Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window
> of
> > course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems to
> > complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows tells
> > me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably akward
> > translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can use
> > fractin only withe the normal VGA standards.
> > When i make a special DOS-session, I hav no problems.
>
> And Fabrizio Cellerini agrees, he has the same problem.
>
   It's maybe a bug in european editions of win95? :)
>
> Hmmm....   Is there any chance another task is grabbing the focus (like a
> screen  saver, emailer, etc.) and putting the DOS mode Fractint back
> into window mode while the other task does something. Then immediately
> Windows will tell you Fractint screwed up, because it can't switch modes.

(Jay suggests turning off screen savers-)

   This is a good bet, actually. Win95 kills a lot of DOS high-resolution
games when you switch back and forth into the game. Erratically, of
course... I'd suggest killing everything else that's running (via
ctrl-alt-del and 'end task') and seeing if the problem repeats. Or try
safe mode, too...


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: Still having problems with Fractal-Art.
Date: 23 Oct 1997 18:59:23 -0500

Jon Noring wrote:
>
> Your post to fractal-art did appear, so everyone should
> have gotten it.  Did you?
>

No, I never got it, so I am unaware that anybody got it from the
Fractal-Art.  Since I also sent to the Fractint List, it showed up
almost immediately, here is it's header info:
___________________________________________________________________
            From:  "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
              To:  [e-mail], [e-mail]
              cc:  Jon Noring <[e-mail]>,
                   Jon Noring <[e-mail]>
          Sender:  [e-mail]
        Reply-To:  [e-mail]
        Received:  from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22])
                   by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net
                   (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 )
                   with SMTP id AAA15473;
                   Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:23:37 +0000
        Received:  from domo by mail.xmission.com
                   with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xOBnb-0001Ve-00;
                   Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:10:55 -0600
      Message-ID:  <[e-mail]>
        X-Mailer:  Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; U)
         Subject:  (fractint) Still having problems with Fractal-Art.
    Organization:  Nahee Enterprises
      Precedence:   bulk
            Date:  Thu, 23 Oct 97 01:08:45 +0000
    Mime-Version:  1.0
    Content-Type:  Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mozilla-Status:  0001
  Content-Length:  2753
___________________________________________________________________


>
> Does this solve the problem or are you still experiencing
> other problems?
>

No, it does not resolve the situation.  This is the ONLY known problem
that I've been experiencing.  None of my email to Fractal-Art has come
back to me since September 27, as it used to do from the time of
originally subscribing.  The problem was intermittant for a few weeks
just prior to that date (when I sent my first request for help on
Saturday, 20 Sept. 1997).  For that matter, if it weren't for Jim's
FOTD, I would almost tend to think that this discussion list has almost
died.

Do you have an explanation for the response that I got back from my ISP
(which I enclosed with the last message) ? ? ?

Do you know why it said in the header "ApparentlyFrom:  <>", with no
valid field information ? ? ?

Do you know why "the delivery failed with reason: Remote server failed"
? ? ?

Do you have any "trace" showing that my messages are being sent out ? ?
?  Does anyone else out there on the Fractal-Art list receive my
Fractal-Art postings (not a "copied" version) ? ? ?

Has something been modified at your end with Majordomo or with the
Aros.Net ? ? ?

Any information would be appreciated, and maybe even helpful.

Thanks,
P.N.L.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Jakubowicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Nova formula
Date: 23 Oct 1997 20:58:19 -0700

Hi,
I am looking for alogorithms and a short explanation of Paul
Derbyshire's Nova family of fractal formulas. He had a page devoted to
this, including some lovely images, but the the URL I have is no good
any more. Does the page still exist?  I would appreciate any help.
                        Thanks,
                        Peter

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 23 Oct 1997 16:44:31 -0500

Tim Riley,

 - JPEG works best on continuous tone images. On images that contain discreet
 - color boundaries, such as FRACTINT images, the "blocky" nature of the
 - compressions algorithm shows up as rectangular noise. It's one reason that
 - JPEG is not suitable for images that contain text and I think that most
 - people would not find it suitable for most fractal images.

Most fractal images as currently created with FractInt, perhaps... although
I've been pretty happy with the results of rendering 1600x1200 images,
converting to 24-bit, and resampling down to 640x480 and saving as JPEG.
For the most part, this works well.

Where JPEG really begins to shine are in fractals that *start* with more
than 256 colors.  Several images that I have created have more than one
"layer"--I create two separate images and composite them together with a
graphics app.  (Similar to using PHC or PTC, but with more color
flexibility and a little less convenience.)  Images that start with
thousands of colors, especially those that have continuous color changes,
fit much better into the JPEG mold and suffer less from artifacting.

JPEG would be a reasonable addition to FractInt once it moves to a 32-bit
environment (either Win32 or djgpp) but as long as it stays in a medium
memory model, this is difficult.  A while back I had to compile the
Independent JPEG Group's free JPEG code into a medium-model Windows 3
app... it didn't work.  Medium memory model programming bites.  Having
true-color and PNG support in FractInt 20 should be fine; there are enough
programs out there that can read PNG and write JPEG, for those that want to
do the conversion.  (This will have the side-effect of removing any PAR
information from the file, which is a good or bad thing, depending on your
point of view. :)

 - Also, I don't think that JPEG supports a info field for saving PAR data,
 - like GIF (and, I believe, PNG).

Well, I'm reading the JPEG material now, and it looks like there's a
comment field in the spec.  So it could be stored as plaintext PAR data.
(But I'm still reviewing the material, so someone please correct me if I'm
wrong!)

    Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
 [e-mail]  /  my gallery of fractal art: http://www.fractalus.com/


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Nova formula
Date: 23 Oct 1997 21:27:12 -0500

--=====================_877678032==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Peter,

 - I am looking for alogorithms and a short explanation of Paul
 - Derbyshire's Nova family of fractal formulas.

Basically, these are formulae that solve z^n-1=0 with Newton's method, but
add a constant value (c) to each iteration.  The original Nova type uses
n=3 and a fixed c and maps the initial z to pixel coordinates (a "Julia"
flavor).  The NovaM type uses an initial z of 1 and maps c to pixels (a
"Mandelbrot" flavor).  Nova4 and Nova4M are the same, but for n=4.  The FRM
is attached below.

 - He had a page devoted to this, including some lovely images, but the the
 - URL I have is no good any more. Does the page still exist?

I just checked the URL I have, and it isn't there. :(  'Twould be a shame
to lose this particular gallery...  Paul posts here from time to time,
perhaps he can explain?  Paul?

--=====================_877678032==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nova.frm"

Comment    { ; The Nova Formulae, discovered by PGD.
             ; Freely distributable but may not be sold.
             ; Novena has two mandelbrot sets that are
             ; slightly different.}

Nova       { ; P1 is a parameter to do strange things to
               the formula. 0 gives the usual Newton for
               cube root of 1. p2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3-1
  der=3*z2
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovaM       { ; Mandelbrot-like set for Nova.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3-1
  der=3*z2
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova4      { ; P1 is a parameter to do strange things to
               the formula. 0 gives the usual Newton for
               fourth root of 1. p2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  z4=z*z3
  func=z4-1
  der=4*z3
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova4M {      ; Mandelbrot-like set for Nova4.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  z4=z*z3
  func=z4-1
  der=4*z3
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Novena     { ; P2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovenaM     { ; Mandelbrot-like set for Novena.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovenaM2    { ; Another Mandelbrot-like set for Novena.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=-0.5+(-1.75)^(0.5)
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

--=====================_877678032==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


    Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
 [e-mail]  /  my gallery of fractal art: http://www.fractalus.com/

--=====================_877678032==_--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Nova formula
Date: 24 Oct 1997 00:49:11 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Hi,
>I am looking for alogorithms and a short explanation of Paul
>Derbyshire's Nova family of fractal formulas. He had a page devoted to
>this, including some lovely images, but the the URL I have is no good
>any more. Does the page still exist?  I would appreciate any help.
>                        Thanks,
>                        Peter

The page esists but my server is a consistent source of problems. As you
noted it is frequently down or flakey. Consequently, I shall move it to
another server ASAP. Meantime, the formula is:


Comment    { ; The Nova Formulae, discovered by PGD.
             ; Freely distributable but may not be sold.
             ; Novena has two mandelbrot sets that are
             ; slightly different.}

Nova       { ; P1 is a parameter to do strange things to
               the formula. 0 gives the usual Newton for
               cube root of 1. p2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3-1
  der=3*z2
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovaM       { ; Mandelbrot-like set for Nova.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3-1
  der=3*z2
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova4      { ; P1 is a parameter to do strange things to
               the formula. 0 gives the usual Newton for
               fourth root of 1. p2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  z4=z*z3
  func=z4-1
  der=4*z3
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova4M {      ; Mandelbrot-like set for Nova4.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  z4=z*z3
  func=z4-1
  der=4*z3
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Novena     { ; P2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovenaM     { ; Mandelbrot-like set for Novena.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

NovenaM2    { ; Another Mandelbrot-like set for Novena.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=-0.5+(-1.75)^(0.5)
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z3=z*z2
  func=z3+z-2
  der=3*z2+1
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova5      { ; P1 is a parameter to do strange things to
               the formula. 0 gives the usual Newton for
               cube root of 1. p2 is an inverse bailout,
               set this to a small nonzero value and use
               floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=pixel
  c=p1:
  z2=z*z
  z4=z2*z2
  z5=z4*z
  func=z5-1
  der=5*z4
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}

Nova5M      { ; Mandelbrot-like set for Nova5.
                P2 is an inverse bailout,
                set this to a small nonzero value and use
                floating point. E.g. 0.0000001.
  z=1
  c=pixel:
  z2=z*z
  z4=z2*z2
  z5=z4*z
  func=z5-1
  der=5*z4
  oz=z
  z=z-(func/der)+c,
  |oz-z|>p2
}


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 11:01:22 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> programs out there that can read PNG and write JPEG, for those that want to
> do the conversion.  (This will have the side-effect of removing any PAR
> information from the file, which is a good or bad thing, depending on your
> point of view. :)

I'd like the PAR file information to be saved as a text string to the
image instead of an application-specific binary block.  Many programs
can extract the text string information from an image file; only
fractint can extract the PAR file information when it is stored as
binary data.  Both PNG, JPEG and GIF all support adding text string
comments to an image file.  (Usually intended for copyright notices.)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kathy roth <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) printing fractint
Date: 24 Oct 1997 09:57:32 -0700

A couple of weeks ago I asked about printing fracint and received a couple of replies
suggesting graphics programs to buy.  Since then my hard drive broke and I lost the
replies.  I wonder if the people who replied could repeat their suggestions.
    I have been following this discussion with some interest.  I think it would be
too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because it enables computer neophytes to do
some really interesting things.  I was inspired to do some reading about fractals and
chaos and to go review some college math.  Do you have suggestions about where to find
basic information on using a formula or giving a command string etc.  I have been
reading the spanky pages.  Thanks.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) nova pars
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:15:55 -0400

    I cannot get Paul Derbyshire's page either.  The message I get says
that my server is not permitted to open this page.  Is this part of the
problems Paul wrote about, or have I got some additional ones?
    I just saw the Nova formulas for the first time yesterday when
posted.  Great formulas!!!  Despite recommendation for float=yes I tried
float=no too, with continuous potential on.  Here are 3 examples.
    Gedeon

gfpnova4-01        {;   0:00:36.96
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nova.frm formulaname=Nova4
  center-mag=3.749e-005/-1.27e-005/0.3729869 params=0/0/1e-007/0
  potential=255/255/0

colors=00040z00zM5f<21>eTufUveTv<22>M5fLFM<13>f`hhbjgah<14>LFM30g<22>b`z\


<23>30gW0z<14>00W<15>W0zLFM<13>f`hhbjgah<14>LFMKJQ<12>dcieejddi<14>KJQ00\

  z<14>z0z<13>80z
  }

gfpnova4-02        {;   0:01:12.56
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nova.frm formulaname=Nova4
  passes=1 center-mag=-0.419969/8.97945e-005/5.045281/0.8278/-90
  params=3/0/1e-007/0 maxiter=1023 potential=255/255/0

colors=000f_W<6>mfangbnfa<38>C85K0D000<14>000100301<28>t0Kv0Lv0L<45>K0DD\

  EI<37>fglghmfgl<38>DEIC85<28>eZV
  }

gfpnovena-01       {;   0:01:58.69
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nova.frm formulaname=Novena
  passes=t center-mag=0.138403/1.49609/6.666813 params=0.51/0/1e-007/0
  maxiter=1023 fillcolor=222 potential=255/255/0

colors=000MMJ<9>776W00<14>z00<15>W00688<22>chh<23>68800z<6>0zz<7>00zDBE<\

  21>daeebfdae<22>DBEWG0<6>zW0<7>WG08CE<22>bir<23>8CE776<21>ffa<12>OOL
  }



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) printing fractint
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:30:23 -0300 (ADT)

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, kathy roth wrote:

> chaos and to go review some college math.  Do you have suggestions about where to find
> basic information on using a formula or giving a command string etc.  I have been
> reading the spanky pages.  Thanks.

First off, please use word wrap, it eliminates a lot of headaches for
those of us using text-oriented mail clients.

For what book, I suggest browsing the sci.fractals FAQ, under "I want to
learn more about fractals..."
  http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/learn.html

The way to start with writing your own formulas, is "playing," which is an
advanced scienitific technique used by the best fractogists. :)

1) Just start playing.
2) Don't use your computer for anything else,
     that would slow down your explorations.
3) Just keep playing.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
    fractal and cryptography archive <http://fractal.mta.ca/>


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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 10:24:13 PST

Why would anyone ever want to use jpeg to store fractal images if PNG
format is available. For me the most interesting thing about fractals
is the very fine detail that can be produced. If you store the image
as a Jpeg at standard compression (70-80%) then much of this detail
is masked or fudged by the artifacts induced by the jpeg format. Lossless
Jpeg is relatively unavailable and is no better at compressing then
anything else. A lot of work went into creating the PNG graphic standard
to ensure that it met the needs for a wide variety of image types and
that it remained royalty free. Why not use it?

    Noel Giffin

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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:49:49 -0400

I noticed that I get par files posted by others as well as my own with
some lines, particularly the color lines, double spaced.  My own par
files I posted just a short time ago looked fine here when I sent them,
but when the list returned them to me, some of the lines were double
spaced. Fractint will not recognize the colors if copied in this way.  I
had to go and delete the empty lines, then everything worked just fine.
Surely this is no big deal, but I am wondering if there is a way around
this, or whether others are experiencing similar problems too.  Would it
not be better, for example, to post parameter files as an attachment?
Generally speaking, what is the form of posting preferred by the list?
Gedeon


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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 24 Oct 1997 19:59:05 +2

le 21 Oct 97 a 20:39, R. J. Jonker ecrivait (R. J. Jonker wrote) :

> Whenever I try to run Fractint under windows 95(B), (in a maxized window
> of course) and use a Vesa screen mode (e.g. 800X600; 256 colors) it seems
> to complete the image and then braeks off. The ever lovely(?) windows
> tells me: This program cannot be restarted (excuses for the probably
> akward translation of a Dutch message) In other words under windows i can
> use fractin only withe the normal VGA standards. When i make a special
> DOS-session, I hav no problems. My question: Is this normal behavior of
> fractint or should I somewhere in Windows change some setting? Hoping for
> an answer Roelof Jonker
>
I think that it is a problem with the graphic card : I have had no problem
with Cirrus Logic cards, but some S3 cards (S3 Trio if I remember) can
only be used with Fractint in a true Dos session, and not in a Dos session
under Windows 95 (whatever settings you choose the this session). I have
changed my card... some (many ?) cards are only partially VESA compatible.


J.P. Louvet                | Phone :  [phone]
IUT Universite Bordeaux I  | Fax :    [phone]
33405 Talence CEDEX France | e-mail : [e-mail]
Fractales sur serveur Web Universite Bordeaux I :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 24 Oct 1997 11:55:32 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>  writes:
> Generally speaking, what is the form of posting preferred by the list?

I'll let Tim set the tone for the list as a whole, but I suggested
posting PAR files as attachments on fractal-art and the subscribers
there shot it down.  Apparently people prefer the tedious hand-editing
you've described.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Word wrap and attachments
Date: 24 Oct 1997 11:16:52 -0700


Gedeon wrote
>I noticed that I get par files posted by others as well as my own
with some lines, particularly the color lines, double spaced.

I bet that is the word wrap function, Michael Taylor wrote that he
liked word wrap on so his end is easier. I suspect word wrap is
what messes up par and formula posts.

> Would it not be better, for example, to post parameter files
as an attachment? Generally speaking, what is the form of
posting preferred by the list?

I prefer inline posting, not attachments.  Attachments often loose
their authorship and origin info, then we have trouble attributing
derived work.  No matter how you do it, there is some editing
involved in storing this list info and keeping it in a recoverable
form.

Another $.03 worth,

Jay



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Word wrap and attachments
Date: 24 Oct 1997 12:21:11 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> I prefer inline posting, not attachments.  Attachments often loose
> their authorship and origin info, then we have trouble attributing
> derived work.  No matter how you do it, there is some editing
> involved in storing this list info and keeping it in a recoverable
> form.

The obvious thing is to include comments in your par/frm/etc. files if
you want attribution.  If done properly, attachments require NO
editing at all, which is the whole point of attachments!
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Chris DiPetta <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Matrox Millenium Cards
Date: 24 Oct 1997 19:19:03 +0100

Has anyone ever gotten the special Matrox Millenium graphics modes to work?
I believe they have color depth selections of 16 and 24 bits, but I've only
gotten monochrome, if anything at all.

-Chris DiPetta



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From: Ian Kaplan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Word wrap and attachments
Date: 24 Oct 1997 14:44:46 -0400 (EDT)


>     "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> > I prefer inline posting, not attachments.  Attachments often loose
> > their authorship and origin info, then we have trouble attributing
> > derived work.  No matter how you do it, there is some editing
> > involved in storing this list info and keeping it in a recoverable
> > form.

   The normal reason to avoid attachments is that some readers may be
unable to use them- most often because they have e-mail accounts in
locations where they can't store files, or can't retrieve them if they do
store them.


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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 11:32:25 -0600


Why use JPEG?  Because quite simply, sometimes disk space or
transmission time is more important than accuracy.  Especially true
if one can include the PAR settings as a text comment, then any viewer
who really wants the accuracy can load the image into fractint and
force a recalc.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Matrox Millenium Cards
Date: 24 Oct 1997 15:48:09 -0400

At 07:19 PM 10/24/97 +0100, Chris DiPetta wrote:
>Has anyone ever gotten the special Matrox Millenium graphics modes to work?
>I believe they have color depth selections of 16 and 24 bits, but I've only
>gotten monochrome, if anything at all.

The only Millenium specific mode in fractint is 'Millenium VESA Mode'
(1600x1200x256), which works fine for me. There are several 'VESA
True-Color' modes in FRACTINT.CFG, but they are for developer testing only.
Currently, fractint doesn't support any color mode greater than 8 bit.

Nick


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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:05:48 -0700


Rich Thomson  wrote:

> then any viewer who really wants the accuracy can
> load the image into fractint and force a recalc.

To make this really work, the image file would need to
include the formula file if 'non-standard'.  I've seen some
neato images and tried to recalc only to find the formula
was unknown.

It would be nice to store equivalent of par and frm
file info and comments like authorship. Then these
should be viewable from Fractint.

Jay




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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 14:14:45 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> To make this really work, the image file would need to
> include the formula file if 'non-standard'.  I've seen some
> neato images and tried to recalc only to find the formula
> was unknown.
>
> It would be nice to store equivalent of par and frm
> file info and comments like authorship. Then these
> should be viewable from Fractint.

There's no reason all of these things couldn't be included in every
fractint saved image.  No reason that is, except programmer time and
available memory in the medium programming model :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Kerry Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) nova-type formulas
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:19:02 -0700 (MST)

Here are two variations of the nova formulas, one Julia-type and one
Mandelbrot type.  They both solve z^n = 1 by Newton's method, and add c to
the new iterate each time.  The exponent n is entered by parameter; it's
slower than a specific z^3 or z^4 formula, but it also supports fractional
exponents.  I've also made the Fractint variable z to be the change in the
iterate (which is zc), instead of the iterate itself.  For standard Newton
fractals, this allows the iteration bands to be colored using the decomp
coloring option.  Also included here is a sample par file, using the Julia
formula.

Kerry Mitchell
[e-mail]

novan_jul { ; Kerry Mitchell
    ; variation on Paul Derbyshire's nova formula, Julia-type
    ; Newton method for zc^n = 1, adding c each time
    ; beginning value of zc = pixel, c = p1
    ; inverse bailout = real(p2), exponent = imag(p2)
    ; z = change in zc each iteration
        c=p1, zc=pixel, r=real(p2), nm1=imag(p2)-1, fac=1/(nm1+1):
        fp=zc^nm1, f=zc*fp-1, z=fac*f/fp+c,
        zc=zc-z, |z| > r
        }

novan_man { ; Kerry Mitchell
    ; variation on Paul Derbyshire's nova formula, Mandelbrot-type
    ; Newton method for zc^n = 1, adding c each time.
    ; beginning value of zc = p1, c = pixel
    ; inverse bailout = real(p2), exponent = imag(p2)
    ; z = change of zc each iteration
        zc=p1, c=pixel, r=real(p2), nm1=imag(p2)-1, fac=1/(nm1+1):
        fp=zc^nm1, f=zc*fp-1, z=fac*f/fp+c,
        zc=zc-z, |z| > r
        }

test               {
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=fractint.frm formulaname=novan_jul
  center-mag=-0.621285/0/0.9712963/1.0667
  params=-1/0/1e-006/6 float=y maxiter=1000 inside=0 decomp=256
  periodicity=0 viewwindows=1/0.8/yes/0/0
  colors=000<40>x00z00z00<40>zy0zz0zz1<39>zzxzzzzzz<40>1zz0zz0yz<39>02z00z\
  00z<41>000 cyclerange=0/255
  }


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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 13:13:45 PST


Steven Covey wrote:

> Why use JPEG?  Because quite simply, sometimes disk space or
> transmission time is more important than accuracy.  Especially true
> if one can include the PAR settings as a text comment, then any viewer
> who really wants the accuracy can load the image into fractint and
> force a recalc.

    Well that's all fine but there are hundreds of applications
that will convert to jpeg format if you want it. The problem is you
can't ever really go back the other way once you've given up detail
with lossy compression. If jpeg is the graphic format adopted by fractint
then recalculating the image as you suggest wouldn't really improve the
accuracy. Using jpeg would also cause problems with saving
and restoring partial images. With GIF and PNG it is easy to load
and restart calculation, but I suspect JPG format would have some
difficulty with this.

    Noel Giffin

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 14:40:55 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>     Well that's all fine but there are hundreds of applications
> that will convert to jpeg format if you want it.

If I'm storing images on my web site, having the user convert them to
JPEG after they've downloaded them misses the point of the better
compression of JPEG.  It doesn't save me any disk space and it didn't
save them any time downloading.

> The problem is you
> can't ever really go back the other way once you've given up detail
> with lossy compression.

Yes you can if you recompute the image.  Nobody is saying that you
have to use JPEG, but blanket statements that one should NEVER use
JPEG aren't useful.

> If jpeg is the graphic format adopted by fractint [...]

There seems to be this underlying assumption that fractint can only
deal with one image format.  This is silly.  There isn't any reason
why fractint couldn't support JPEG, GIF and PNG.  No reason except the
medium memory model under DOS, that is.

> Using jpeg would also cause problems with saving
> and restoring partial images.

So don't use JPEG for that.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 14:49:06 PST


Steve Covey wrote in response to:
> In article <[e-mail]> ,

>    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>>     Well that's all fine but there are hundreds of applications
>> that will convert to jpeg format if you want it.
>
> If I'm storing images on my web site, having the user convert them to
> JPEG after they've downloaded them misses the point of the better
> compression of JPEG.  It doesn't save me any disk space and it didn't
> save them any time downloading.
Note that I said "if you want to", the implication being that you could
convert any image to jpg and store it at your site for download. This
would save your diskspace and the download time. This is still not
a substantial argument for adding the format to fractint.
>
>> The problem is you
>> can't ever really go back the other way once you've given up detail
>> with lossy compression.

> Yes you can if you recompute the image.  Nobody is saying that you
> have to use JPEG, but blanket statements that one should NEVER use
> JPEG aren't useful.
Actually you are misquoting me here. My original statement was phrased
as a question, although I admit my punctuation was wrong. Also it was
made within the context of this subject heading, "Re: (fractint) JPEG
suitability for fractals", and I still believe that this isn't the
best format for fractal images.
>
>> If jpeg is the graphic format adopted by fractint [...]
>
> There seems to be this underlying assumption that fractint can only
> deal with one image format.  This is silly.  There isn't any reason
> why fractint couldn't support JPEG, GIF and PNG.  No reason except the
> medium memory model under DOS, that is.

Well there is also the work involved in adding parameter blocks,
possibly formula blocks, and duplicating this structure in all file
formats, debugging, etc... Fractint is complicated enough. Unless
jpeg adds some functionality unavailable elsewhere or provides
some useful utility, it wouldn't be high on my priority list if I was
doing the work. I'm not, so my opinion isn't that important.
>
>> Using jpeg would also cause problems with saving
>> and restoring partial images.

> So don't use JPEG for that.
But if it isn't capable of this, is it really worth adding?

    Noel

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Potential Max Color Problem
Date: 24 Oct 1997 18:13:13 -0400 (EDT)

Hi!  I'm having a problem running Fractint 19.6 under Windows 95.  The
Potential Max Color , Slope, Bailout options (the Y options) do not seem to
work.  I've tried running the program in a DOS window and running it in DOS
mode.  Same problem either way.  Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
 Thanks.

Bill Rossi
http://members.aol.com/billatny/fractopi.htm

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:24:15 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
> > Yes you can if you recompute the image.  Nobody is saying that you
> > have to use JPEG, but blanket statements that one should NEVER use
> > JPEG aren't useful.
> Actually you are misquoting me here.

Actually I'm not quoting you at all, which is why there's no >'s
quoting you as saying that.

> I still believe that [JPEG] isn't the best format for fractal images.

And naturally you are entitled to your opinion, but its just your
opinion.  Other people have different opinions.  JPEG is a very common
file format now; more prevalent than GIF files.  Lots of people like
the small file sizes of JPEG and don't mind the compression artifacts.
Once the medium memory model is gone in fractint, there isn't any
technical barrier to adding JPEG support for file I/O.

> Well there is also the work involved in adding parameter blocks,
> possibly formula blocks, and duplicating this structure in all file
> formats, debugging, etc...

There is nothing special about JPEG in this respect.  Adding any new
feature to fractint requires debugging, etc.  As for adding the
parameter blocks, etc., all the code to do that is already there, its
just not applied to JPEG output.

> >> Using jpeg would also cause problems with saving
> >> and restoring partial images.
>
> > So don't use JPEG for that.
> But if it isn't capable of this, is it really worth adding?

I thought about it a little more and you CAN finish a partially
computed image that was stored as JPEG.  There is nothing in JPEG that
would prevent this capability.  There's nothing different from GIF in
this respect.

To summarize, all the things we now do with GIF images can be done
with JPEG images.  Yes, JPEG achieves its compression by doing lossy
compression.  If you want lossless images, then use another format.
Give the artist/user tools, not rules.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) re: potential max color problem
Date: 24 Oct 1997 18:41:45 -0400

These options do not work will all formula and parameter combinations,
moreover, sometimes they work with float=no, sometimes with float=yes,
sometimes with both, sometimes with neither.  Possibly your problem is
not with Fractint, but with your choice of parameters and formulas.
Have you tried several?  I have no idea why this is so.  Perhaps some of
our resident experts at Fractint programming can explain it.  I would
certainly be interested in hearing it.
Gedeon.


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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 15:45:18 PST

Steven Covey wrote:

> I thought about it a little more and you CAN finish a partially
> computed image that was stored as JPEG.  There is nothing in JPEG that
> would prevent this capability.  There's nothing different from GIF in
> this respect.

Well that's interesting, maybe you could enlighten me here. I know that
GIF and PNG are compressed bitmaps, but JPG isn't. Restarting a partial
image in fractint is currently done by scanning the bitmap for the
first uncalculated bit. I thought a bitmap created by decompressing a
jpg image would have artifacts that would make locating this point
difficult. Yes you could save the last calculated position in a comment
block, but wouldn't there still be differences in the image
induced by edge artifacts? Would a restarted image be exactly the
same as one left to completion in a single pass? These were my
assumptions about JPG, but I would be glad to here differently.

    Noel Giffin

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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
Date: 24 Oct 1997 15:41:24 -0700


On 10/22/97 Rich Thomson wrote:
>Since fractint allows you to write arbitrary formulas for fractals,
>has anyone considered writing a program that uses genetic
>algorithm techniques to "invent" formulas for fractint?

Such a procedure would require systematic parameterization
of the formula space (frm) and perhaps also the image space
(par).  If I used a 'seed' fed into a hash function (to fill out the
bytes expressing the above parameterizations) then I could
quickly observe never seen before awsome fractal images.

Then I foresee the fractint art list reading like this...

> Jim, your f(9348728) was fab.
> And f(3456185) Oooo.  Aaahhh.
> But I don't know about your f(348123). Yawn!
>
> Tom wrote:
>>What am I doing wrong? Your f(34287) gives me
>> a blank screen.
> Of course that does. I said f(34288). Everone knows
> f(34287) is blank.
>
>John, please remove f(6533267) from your page,
> I copyrighted that last month!

  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
:-)  :-)


Jay



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:56:09 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
> Steven Covey wrote:

Pardon me, but my name isn't Steven Covey.  Are you just making a
mistake, or are you trying to be adversarial?

> Well that's interesting, maybe you could enlighten me here. I know that
> GIF and PNG are compressed bitmaps, but JPG isn't. Restarting a partial
> image in fractint is currently done by scanning the bitmap for the
> first uncalculated bit.

It must record the last calculated position in the image because even
with GIF files it doesn't always start EXACTLY at the last calculated
pixel.  I recently had an image that wouldn't progress because I had
the savetime set for 10 minutes.  Fractint would be grinding away and
then hit the 10 minute timer and save the image.  It then would
continue as if it had just loaded the partially complete image.  This
caused it to actually back up a few scanlines.  You can guess why it
never made any progress... it took longer than 10 minutes to compute
enough scanlines to convince fractint that it should start farther
down in the image.

At any rate, JPEG files are conceptually groups of 8x8 pixel blocks.
So you just record which blocks are complete when you write out a
partial image.  When you read the image back in, you compute the
remaining 8x8 blocks.

> Yes you could save the last calculated position in a comment
> block, but wouldn't there still be differences in the image
> induced by edge artifacts?

No.

> Would a restarted image be exactly the
> same as one left to completion in a single pass?

Yes.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:58:58 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> On 10/22/97 Rich Thomson wrote:
> >Since fractint allows you to write arbitrary formulas for fractals,
> >has anyone considered writing a program that uses genetic
> >algorithm techniques to "invent" formulas for fractint?
>
> Such a procedure would require systematic parameterization
> of the formula space (frm) and perhaps also the image space
> (par). [...]

First, let me back up a little.  Are you familiar with genetic
algorithm techniques?  Becuase the parameterizatio nof the formula
space is already there.  There is a grammar for all valid formulas,
and there is also a grammar for all valid PAR specifications.  GA
techniques can be used to breed different formulas -- all of which are
valid members of the formula grammar.  As for the PAR specifications,
that would probably be better explored separately from the GA idea,
similar to the evolver that's being worked on.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:51:17 PST

Rich Thompson wrote:

> Pardon me, but my name isn't Steven Covey.  Are you just making a
> mistake, or are you trying to be adversarial?

 Sorry Rich, an honest mistake. I took the first name that I saw
in the sig.

> It must record the last calculated position in the image because even
> with GIF files it doesn't always start EXACTLY at the last calculated
> pixel.  I recently had an image that wouldn't progress because I had
> the savetime set for 10 minutes.  Fractint would be grinding away and
> then hit the 10 minute timer and save the image.  It then would
> continue as if it had just loaded the partially complete image.  This
> caused it to actually back up a few scanlines.  You can guess why it
> never made any progress... it took longer than 10 minutes to compute
> enough scanlines to convince fractint that it should start farther
> down in the image.

    I usually calculate in single pass mode, so it only recalculates
the unfinished line. This can still be a long time though. I'm still
not clear on why recalculating this partial line is necessary.

> At any rate, JPEG files are conceptually groups of 8x8 pixel blocks.
> So you just record which blocks are complete when you write out a
> partial image.  When you read the image back in, you compute the
> remaining 8x8 blocks.

    Ah! That's interesting. I can see how that would work, and I
can imagine how some of those annoying artifacts are introduced with this
8x8 bit block structure. I never meant to imply that JPG format was
good for nothing. I just think it isn't optimum for fractals. If I
had to pick one format to use, it wouldn't be that one. Yes, you could
add more than one output format to Fractint, but I would hate to see
most people choosing jpg for output just because it is widely used and
has good compression. I personally would rather see people post images
in a lossless image format. That way I can trust what I'm looking at to
be truly fractal down to the pixel level. Maybe this seems silly and
somewhat picky to some, but that is my preference. I also argue with lots
of people about anti-aliasing for similar reasons. I think it's a useful
option, but I wouldn't want to see it become the standard that everyone
uses by default. I probably shouldn't have opened that can of worms as
it's already been kicked around on both this list and the fractal-art
list. I just tend to like things simple and I want to know that if
someone posts a fractal image, that it hasn't gone through too much
processing. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else on this list
wrong, if they don't agree with me, I'm just stating my opinions. I feel
if I don't speak out, then JPG and anti-aliasing might become the
default method, without the option to choose differently. I think that
would be a mistake.

    Noel Giffin




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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 18:05:05 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>  Sorry Rich, an honest mistake. I took the first name that I saw
> in the sig.

OK, no biggie :)

>     I usually calculate in single pass mode, so it only recalculates
> the unfinished line. This can still be a long time though. I'm still
> not clear on why recalculating this partial line is necessary.

Me neither... I think its most likely explained by programmer sloth
:).  You know the three rules of programming:

    1. Don't do it
    2. Don't do it again
    3. Sometimes you have to break rule 1. :)

> [...] I feel
> if I don't speak out, then JPG and anti-aliasing might become the
> default method, without the option to choose differently. I think that
> would be a mistake.

We are in full agreement there.  As I said, my philosophy is "tools
not rules".  I'd like to see the user have the choice of: PNG, GIF and
JPEG.  And for what its worth, I'd like to see them supported in that
order :).  PNG is the clear successor to GIF in that it has lossless
compression and efficient encoding of both 8-bit and 24-bit images and
maybe more importantly it has genuine alpha channel and gamma correction
support.  There is also a place for JPEG, especially once we start
getting away from the classic "level set" fractals and into the more
varied world of 24-bit fractals and continuous shading where JPEG
artifacts are less noticeable.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:07:36 -0700


Rich Thomson,
> First, let me back up a little.  Are you familiar with genetic
> algorithm techniques?  Because the parameterization of
> the formula space is already there.

Yes, I have read materials on this subject.  If you stick too
close to reality, the humor is gone.    :-)    I was just trying
to describe a no-brainer way to drive the algorithm and
get pictures out.

Having to actually write a formula, well, ah, ...  ;-)

More seriously, this technique could be put into a screen saver
and we'd have wild pictures endlessly.  In fact, it might produce
the most strikingly beautiful image and there might not  be
anyone there to see it.

Reminds me of the Tonight Show debates where Ed and Johnny
argued about a tree falling in a forest. If no one is there, does it
make a sound?

If a screen saver makes a beautiful image and no one is there
to see it, is the image art?

I guess the computer would be the judge.  When you stop the
screen saver by moving the mouse, or whatever, the screen
saver should show briefly the best image found (according
to the computer) since the saver was initiated.

Come to think of it, a genetic algorithm technique to
"invent" formulas would need an objective function to
evaluate each candidate formula.  That might be: it must
find at least one image which passes some artistic criteria.
Given the n dimensional space needed to describe
an image, aside from the formula. That is a nice
challenge.  Especially given that sometimes it is the
color scheme which turns a mess into a nice image.

Anyway, I don't see right off how you can separate the
formula search from the image parameter part.  The
optimization should judge based on criteria similar to
what we use.  Jim Muth's Fractal of the Day is selected
by him based on finding a good image. If a formula
does not give him a good image, he moves on.
Sometimes he may go back to an old rejected formula,
but we won't hear of it if he doesn't find a good image.

Jay



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
Date: 24 Oct 1997 18:32:13 -0600


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> Come to think of it, a genetic algorithm technique to
> "invent" formulas would need an objective function to
> evaluate each candidate formula.  That might be: it must
> find at least one image which passes some artistic criteria.
> Given the n dimensional space needed to describe
> an image, aside from the formula. That is a nice
> challenge.  Especially given that sometimes it is the
> color scheme which turns a mess into a nice image.

Yes, the number of possible combinations and pictures is truly mind
boggling!  However, it was just something I thought up the other day
and wondered if anyone else has had thoughts along those lines.  I
envisioned the GA generating a bunch of images overnight and having
some person apply an aesthetic "fitness" judgment on the images: this
one dies, that one lives, etc.  After all that, the program takes the
surviving entities and uses them as feed stock for the next pass of
the GA.  Iterations would be tedious, but as you say it would be
difficult to write a program that could evaluate the images.

> Anyway, I don't see right off how you can separate the
> formula search from the image parameter part.

Just thinking of how one might do it with the way fractint works now.
The GA program is just something that takes some inputs and generates
a .FRM file.  It might also generate a minimal .PAR file, since some
things like formula parameters and bailout values can be selected by
parameters.  However, the GA program could just as easily hard-code
these values into the formula.  This would mean that the formulas
wouldn't be parameterized like many of the formula types we have now.

For instance, the formula z := z^n + c, is really a "family" of
formulas, where you can vary the parameter n.  The GA code could just
pick a value of N and fix it for any individual instance of a formula.
If it took that approach, then the PAR file would control things like
coloring, color maps, iteration count, etc.  The fundamental structure
is determined by the formula -- and hence by the GA, but the visual
attributes of the rendering are controlled by the user with a set of
"favorite" PAR file commands.

Is this making more sense now?  Just the idea that the formula parser
can handle arbitrary expressions of complex numbers made me think:
"How do I think up these expressions?  Its tedious... why not have a
program think them up?"  Naturally, there are plenty of expressions
allowed by the formula parser's grammar that don't produce any
interesting images.  Things like z=1.5 aren't very interesting at all
:).  So I suppose you could write the GA such that it recognized
classes of "interesting" formulas and didn't generate boring ones like
z=constant.

> The
> optimization should judge based on criteria similar to
> what we use.  Jim Muth's Fractal of the Day is selected
> by him based on finding a good image. If a formula
> does not give him a good image, he moves on.
> Sometimes he may go back to an old rejected formula,
> but we won't hear of it if he doesn't find a good image.

Yep.... what I was idly pontificating was the ability to have a
program that generates possibly interesting formulas instead of having
to think them up.  Just one more step in making all those parameters
and options in fractint work on "autopilot", if you will... :)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Bill at NY <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) re: potential max color problem
Date: 24 Oct 1997 22:03:01 EDT

In a message dated 97-10-24 18:47:15 EDT, you write:

<<
 These options do not work will all formula and parameter combinations,
 moreover, sometimes they work with float=no, sometimes with float=yes,
 sometimes with both, sometimes with neither.  Possibly your problem is
 not with Fractint, but with your choice of parameters and formulas.
 Have you tried several?  I have no idea why this is so.  Perhaps some of
 our resident experts at Fractint programming can explain it.  I would
 certainly be interested in hearing it.
 Gedeon.

  >>

Gedeon,

Thanks for the quick response, but I know this is not the problem.  These are
formulas and parameters which I created under DOS on a Windows 3.1 machine.  I
know that they should work.  It seems to have something to do with my new
Windows 95 Pentium II.

Bill

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 24 Oct 1997 23:57:45 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I noticed that I get par files posted by others as well as my own with
>some lines, particularly the color lines, double spaced.  My own par
>files I posted just a short time ago looked fine here when I sent them,
>but when the list returned them to me, some of the lines were double
>spaced. Fractint will not recognize the colors if copied in this way.  I
>had to go and delete the empty lines, then everything worked just fine.
>Surely this is no big deal, but I am wondering if there is a way around
>this, or whether others are experiencing similar problems too.  Would it
>not be better, for example, to post parameter files as an attachment?
>Generally speaking, what is the form of posting preferred by the list?
>Gedeon

NOOO! Not attachments. Some people (I for one) using text-oriented mail
software can't decode attachments.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:25:10 -0400 (EDT)

>There's no reason all of these things couldn't be included in every
>fractint saved image.  No reason that is, except programmer time and
>available memory in the medium programming model :)

Medium mmory this, medium memory that, you're constraining yourselves too
much. There are 32 bit flat model development environments. Some are free,
notably DJGPP which is good and has a big user base/tool/software
base, Cygwin32 which doesn't, and GNU CC on various Unices and Linux.
(DJGPP is Gnu CC in fact, but on DOS.) For these, to do fractals or
Fractint well requires a minimal graphics library (putpixel and mode
setting at least) and preferably, assembly. DJGPP permits assembly modules
made with NASM (also free, 32 bit etc.) to be linked in. It has an inline
assembly too, but this requires the use of AT&T syntax (NASM uses Intel).
The library Allegro provides putpixels and mode setters and other fancier
features, is essentially free and similarly easy to obtain by 'net. On
Linux Allegro will soon be available, and there is GCC and its AT&T
assembly. In Windows, Windows supplies the graphics API and graphics
calls, and I have no idea about assembly code there.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: cindy mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) my site
Date: 24 Oct 1997 22:12:30 -0700

Hi Everyone,
I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
using IE?

       Thank You,
               Cindy "The Fractal Lady"


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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) printing fractint
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600

> I think it would be
> too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because it enables computer neophytes to do
> some really interesting things.

Don't worry. I was just throwing out the idea of eliminating built-in
types for discussion. The idea didn't fly. The point of accessibility
of fractint to beginners was one of the important points in favor of
keeping the built-in types.

We do have a consensus to remove integer math, pending only an
evaluation of a prototype to see if it is OK.

Tim




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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600

Noel wrote:

> Why would anyone ever want to use jpeg to store fractal images if PNG
> format is available.

This is my opinion also. In any case, the current DOS fractint will
never support jpeg because there's not room. I'm not ripping out
integer math to make room for jpeg!

If users want it, and some programmer is willing to do the work and
we all decide that it doesn't bloat fractint too much, we could add
jpeg after Fractint is safely in a roomier development environment
such as Win95.

IMHO the best approach is to save the image losslessly in a format
that supports both palette-based and truecolor images. That's PNG.
Users can convert the image to JPEG with one of the many programs
that do that sort of thing (Paintshop Pro, Graphics Workshop, Thumbs
Plus etc. )

I know that some others feel Fractint should support more formats, so
it is a possibility, my opinion notwithstanding <g!>.

Tim





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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600

Rich said, concerning saving formulas in images:

> No reason that is, except programmer time and
> available memory in the medium programming model :)

Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
programmer time to do.

I can see some value in this, but on the negative side it's not good
to duplicate formulas all over the place. It represents the ultimate
non-normalized database. For this reason it has seemed to me better
to maintain collections of formulas in one place on each artist's
machine.

My feeling is a natural time to consider this is when we move to PNG,
and will be redesigning how data is stored in fractals anyway. I'm
open to the suggestion to have the formula be part of the image.
Maybe it should be optional. If you make 1000 images from one
formula, you's be storing the formula 1000 times. The only time it
makes sense is when you are distributing the image and want it to be
self-contained.

Tim



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600

Rich said:

> I'd like the PAR file information to be saved as a text string to the
> image instead of an application-specific binary block.

This is exactly the plan, except I don't want to put the information
in a comment block, because then the contents won't be reliable.
Anyone can edit a comment, possibly in ways that would break
fractint's ability to read it.

I have reserved an application-specific chunk name for fractal
information in PNG files. My suggestion is to put fractal information
in text form in the chunk. We'll have a thorough discussion with
interested parties before committing to details.

Fractint could have an option to write fractal information in a
conventional comment if users want it. I just don't want that to be
the info that fractint itself uses.

Tim

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600


> I'll let Tim set the tone for the list as a whole, but I suggested
> posting PAR files as attachments on fractal-art and the subscribers
> there shot it down.  Apparently people prefer the tedious hand-editing
> you've described.

I don't know what to say. Attachments have the advantage of not
scrambling PAR files, but many readers find them irritating or
inaccessible. But it is also irritating to have a PAR scrambled in
a message.

I think message style is fairly hard to legislate, but if a clear
consensus emerges, I can put a suggestion in the list charter.

One style habit that is appreciated is to quote messages sparsly,
and write messages that fit in one screen. makes it easy to read
through the list quickly without scrolling..

Tim



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hussein Karam <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) help
Date: 25 Oct 1997 04:15:09 +0900

I'm a Ph.D. student and I want to know the open problems in fractal,
and its application, because I'm interested in.

Regards,
--
Name    :   Hussein Karam

Address :   Tokyo Institute of Technology
            Computer Science Department
            Nagajima Lab, 2-12-1 Meguro-Ku,
            O-okayama, 152  JAPAN
Tel     :   [phone]
Fax     :   [phone]


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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) my site
Date: 25 Oct 1997 01:30:42 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Hi Everyone,
>I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
>would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
>Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
>using IE?

Don't you have Internet Exploder? Surely you're not using NETSCRAP?! That
thing GPFs as frequently as it loads images on webpages.

>               Cindy "The Fractal Lady"

:)

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )
Date: 25 Oct 1997 01:35:42 -0400 (EDT)

>
>Rich said, concerning saving formulas in images:
>
>> No reason that is, except programmer time and
>> available memory in the medium programming model :)
>
>Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
>trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
>programmer time to do.
>
>I can see some value in this, but on the negative side it's not good
>to duplicate formulas all over the place. It represents the ultimate
>non-normalized database.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
DON'T REMIND ME!
I've just been reading my brains out about fourth normal form because of a
comp sci midterm coming up and now I want to relax on a Friday night!
:-)

>My feeling is a natural time to consider this is when we move to PNG,
>and will be redesigning how data is stored in fractals anyway. I'm
>open to the suggestion to have the formula be part of the image.
>Maybe it should be optional. If you make 1000 images from one
>formula, you's be storing the formula 1000 times. The only time it
>makes sense is when you are distributing the image and want it to be
>self-contained.

Mostly agreed.

BTW are there any image conversion/manipulation apps that preserve custom
chunks? PSP doesn't, I know, even if you save it back as the same
filetype. Hypothetically the best paint/image app possible would allow hex
editing and text editing of the darn things as well as preservation and
some way of including it verbatim in other formats, possibly changing the
chunk-name to whatever you name custom chunks in the format.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) help
Date: 25 Oct 1997 01:37:58 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I'm a Ph.D. student and I want to know the open problems in fractal,
>and its application, because I'm interested in.

hmm.

* Is the M-set locally connected?
* What the f*ck is a Herman ring and can you come up with a formula and
  parameter file for a Herman ring Julia set? (The normal M-set is known
  to lack Herman rings. Other formulas, though...)
* Can you make a formula with many fractally entwined basins of attraction
  and lots of mandelbrots and self inverse detail?
* is there an easy way to find interesting self-homologous fractals?

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Traynor)
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 01:39:57 -0400 (EDT)

Steven Covey writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> ,
>    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>>     Well that's all fine but there are hundreds of applications
>> that will convert to jpeg format if you want it.
>
>If I'm storing images on my web site, having the user convert them to
>JPEG after they've downloaded them misses the point of the better
>compression of JPEG.  It doesn't save me any disk space and it didn't
>save them any time downloading.

You are missing the point.  You convert them to JPEG and put them on your
site, and make the par file available for download.  A person who just
wants a cool pic downloads the JPEG and one who wants to play with it
downloads the par (getting in the process compression that JPEG can only
dream of)  There is no need to have fractint produce the original image,
and serious problems if it did.


--
Mike Traynor

People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    Abraham Lincoln

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Traynor)
Subject: RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT)

Tim Wegner (our benefactor) writes:

>I know that some others feel Fractint should support more formats, so
>it is a possibility, my opinion notwithstanding <g!>.

I'd suggest that the best approach is to have one fractint use one format
and let folk convert to whatever else they like, so fractint can be
devoted to doing what it does best - generate images.  Fractint using both
GIF/PNG and JPEG - next thing folks will want the Fractint Office Suite
and have it do wordprocessing and spreadsheets!  Of course watch Sylvie
Gallet now come up with a formula that lets you do just that!

--
Mike Traynor

People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    Abraham Lincoln

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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 11:03:34 +2

le 24 Oct 97 a 16:51, NOEL_GIFFIN ecrivait (NOEL_GIFFIN wrote) :
...snipped..
> had to pick one format to use, it wouldn't be that one. Yes, you could
> add more than one output format to Fractint, but I would hate to see most
> people choosing jpg for output just because it is widely used and has
> good compression. I personally would rather see people post images in a
> lossless image format. That way I can trust what I'm looking at to be
> truly fractal down to the pixel level. Maybe this seems silly and
> somewhat picky to some, but that is my preference. I also argue with lots
> of people about anti-aliasing for similar reasons. I think it's a useful
> option, but I wouldn't want to see it become the standard that everyone
> uses by default. I probably shouldn't have opened that can of worms as
..snipped...

Noel,
I agree with you from a theoretical point of you about JPG. But the
practical side of the question is that, when you draw "true color"
fractals and store them into PNG format (as I do), the size of the files
are hardly compatible with the slow speed of most Internet connections.
Therefore I convert my image to JPG for my web pages (with a few loss of
details : Paintshop Pro allows me to choose the compression rate and the
results are pretty good).
But from a theoretical point of view I can't agree about anti-aliasing.
When you say that you expect the image be truly fractal to the
pixel level, this is false when you don't use a supersampling antialiasing
rendering. The problem is that your  image is a collection of discrete
values, when the fractal formula is continuous. Moreover the screen
displays the mathematical dimensionless points by pixels having a visible
area. And what is the coordinates of the mathematical point ? The center of
the screen pixel ? One corner ? It is why the screen image IS NOT a
correct representation of the theoretical fractal. The screen "cuts" high
frequency details of the fractal. If you say that the highest frequency
displayed by the screen is the number of pixels by unit of length, how can
we manage the signal to best fit this limited output ? The theoretical
answer is that we must oversample at least 2 to 3 times.
This is why in antialiased images, one material pixel being the average of
several "sub-pixels" these pixels are more accurate representations than
when you compute "one mathematical point giving one pixel".
A good text was posted about antialiasing some time ago in the
fractal-arts mailing list.

Be indulgent for my mimited English, I have no time "polish" this text
more.

J.P. Louvet                | Phone :  [phone]
IUT Universite Bordeaux I  | Fax :    [phone]
33405 Talence CEDEX France | e-mail : [e-mail]
Fractales sur serveur Web Universite Bordeaux I :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 11:21:00 +2

le 25 Oct 97 a 11:03, J.P. Louvet ecrivait (J.P. Louvet wrote) :

> Be indulgent for my mimited English, I have no time "polish" this text
> more.
Funny indeed !!!!!! Read "my limited English, I have no time to "polish"
!!!!!!
J.P. Louvet                | Phone :  [phone]
IUT Universite Bordeaux I  | Fax :    [phone]
33405 Talence CEDEX France | e-mail : [e-mail]
Fractales sur serveur Web Universite Bordeaux I :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: davides <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) my site
Date: 25 Oct 1997 07:31:50 -0400

At 10:12 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
>would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
>Will appreciate your comments.
>       Thank You,
>               Cindy "The Fractal Lady"

Very nice site; very good images.
[e-mail]
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons For You Are Crunchy And Good With
Ketchup"

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From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 25 Oct 1997 14:25:36 +0200 (EET)




On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, NOEL_GIFFIN wrote:

> with lossy compression. If jpeg is the graphic format adopted by fractint
> then recalculating the image as you suggest wouldn't really improve the
> accuracy. Using jpeg would also cause problems with saving
> and restoring partial images. With GIF and PNG it is easy to load
> and restart calculation, but I suspect JPG format would have some
> difficulty with this.
>
>     Noel Giffin

Recalculating the image starts with the parameters of the image, not the
stored image itself. So, as long as parmaters can be saved within the file
(as a commnet, or they are saved in gif files) the image can be
recalcualted to any detail.
Uri


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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 24 Oct 1997 21:37:37 -0500

Noel,

 - Why would anyone ever want to use jpeg to store fractal images if PNG
 - format is available.

Easy--size.  YES, you lose a lot of the fine detail in many images... but
the honest truth is, unless you're looking at at least a 1024x768 image,
there isn't much fine detail to be had, and downloading a 1024x768 PNG file
takes a *long* time.  For casual web browsing with a 28.8K modem, 640x480
or smaller JPEGs make a *lot* more sense.

In NO WAY would I advocate using JPEG for archival use.  I keep all my
images in large (1024x768 or 1600x1200) GIFs, and only produce 640x480
JPEGs for my web pages.

 - If you store the image as a Jpeg at standard compression (70-80%) then
 - much of this detail is masked or fudged by the artifacts induced by the
 - jpeg format.

Not all JPEG compressors are created equal.  Some are really lousy and
produce a lot of artifacts at only moderate compression.  Others produce
very small artifacts at that same moderate compression.  If you are unhappy
with your JPEG compressor's quality, try checking out a different app.  For
example, the JPEG compressor in Micrografx Picture Publisher 6 is
atrocious; the one in version 7 is very good.  Adobe Photoshop has a decent
performer, but in version 3 it didn't give you fine control over quality.
(I believe version 4 does.)

 - A lot of work went into creating the PNG graphic standard to ensure that
 - it met the needs for a wide variety of image types and that it remained
 - royalty free. Why not use it?

I will use it for archival use, but for web graphics, I would still
recommend JPEG in many situations (including full-size fractals).

    Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
 [e-mail]  /  my gallery of fractal art: http://www.fractalus.com/


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From: "Jon Fetting" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) screen savers
Date: 25 Oct 1997 12:54:54 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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is there any way to turn your favorite fractal into a screen saver with =
color cycling

  Jon

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>is there any way to turn your =
favorite fractal=20
into a screen saver with color cycling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>  Jon</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BCE145.31BB9020--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jon Fetting" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) screen savers
Date: 25 Oct 1997 10:52:27 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCE134.16066C80
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

is there any way to make screnn savers from yoour faverite gif and have =
color cycling?

thanks for your time jon

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>is there any way to make screnn =
savers from=20
yoour faverite gif and have color cycling?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks for your time=20
jon</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCE134.16066C80--


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From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) 2048x2048 is the limit ?
Date: 25 Oct 1997 17:14:43 -0400

    quoting from FRACTINT.DOC, about Disk-video mode...

>   are useful for creating images beyond the capacity of your video
> adapter right up to the current internal limit of 2048 x 2048 x 256,
> e.g. for subsequent printing.  They're also useful for background

    What about this limitation: GIF constraint, medium memory
    model or others ? I work with graphics creators for a few
    raytracing, and they need time to time 6000x4000 images !
    I hope that this limit was killed in the next Fractint...

            Thierry     (Toulouse, France)

p.s.    Don't use Jpeg please, and go to PNG.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 2048x2048 is the limit ?
Date: 25 Oct 1997 19:19:44 -0600

Thierry wrote:

>     What about this limitation: GIF constraint, medium memory
>     model or others ? I work with graphics creators for a few
>     raytracing, and they need time to time 6000x4000 images !

This limit was overcome a long time ago by stiching together pieces
of images. See the <b> command. You can make 64kx64k images if you
have enough disk space.

We'll keep the 2048 limit until we port the program to a 32 bit
environment. Then size will be limited only by memory. Until then you
can use the divide and conquor method. Jon Noring has used it to make
museum exhibitions.

> p.s.    Don't use Jpeg please, and go to PNG.

There are absolutely no plans to implement jpeg. I think we've beat
this to death, including my own comments. I suggest we stop the jpeg
discussions.

Tim


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 24 Oct 1997 08:25:58 -0500

Hey, Roelof.
I'm glad it worked.
ANd you're right: WIN'95 is not to be understood. I kind of think of it
like a car: I get in, turn on the key and GO! I don't care what's going
on under the hood (although I appreciate the technology) I just want it
to work.

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:00:17 +0200 "R. J. Jonker" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Thanks everybody for helping out. The suggestion of nuke did the
>trick. Why
>and how? I probably never understand, but then win95 is'nt for
>understanding. I surely will enjoy again the images generated by
>fractint.
>By the way my video = ATI  Xpression+  (direct draw)  2MB
>Regards
>Roelof Jonker
>-----------
>The right of free speech implicates the duty to think
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
>Post Message:   [e-mail]
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>Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"
>

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) screen savers
Date: 26 Oct 1997 00:22:37 -0400 (EDT)

>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCE134.16066C80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>    charset="iso-8859-1"

<machine-readable mumbo jumbo deleted>

Please don't post in HTML. Use plain text. Some subscribers (read: me)
can't decode this crap.


--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) RE: Eliminating built-in formulaes  (was: printing fractint)
Date: 25 Oct 1997 18:48:32 -0400


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-----Original Message-----
Sent:    vendredi, 24 octobre 1997 12:58

<snip>
I think it would be too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because =
it enables computer neophytes to do some really interesting things.
<snip>

I would simply like to point out that the intention is not to remove the =
"usability" of built-in formulae, but to minimize the size of the =
executable: the formulaes would be just where you find them right now to =
a user, but in fact, they would be stored on file like any other =
formula, of something such.

CIAO!

'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5
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AAADAA00/TcAACKy

------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE1A5.69327860--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: Eliminating built-in formulaes  (was: printing fractint)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 00:54:22 -0400 (EDT)

[Computer code crud]

>------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE1A5.69327860
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:    kathy roth [SMTP:[e-mail]]
>Sent:    vendredi, 24 octobre 1997 12:58
>To:    [e-mail]
>Subject:    (fractint) printing fractint
>
><snip>
>I think it would be too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because =
>it enables computer neophytes to do some really interesting things.
><snip>
>
>I would simply like to point out that the intention is not to remove the =
>"usability" of built-in formulae, but to minimize the size of the =
>executable: the formulaes would be just where you find them right now to =
>a user, but in fact, they would be stored on file like any other =
>formula, of something such.
>
>CIAO!
>
>'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
>Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
>Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
>Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5

[More computer crap]

>------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE1A5.69327860
>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64


[Smallish binary attachment snipped]

Please guys, PLEASE cut it out with the HTML, encoded headers, binaries,
and stuff. Post a fractal as a text PAR/FRM file... many of us have no
decoders, and binaries are poor netiquette on newsgroups and lists anyways.

--
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robin Y. Millette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) RE: Eliminating built-in formulaes  (was: printing fractint)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 08:27:48 -0500


------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE1EC.DB0376A0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original Message-----
Sent:    dimanche, 26 octobre 1997 00:54
printing fractint)

[Computer code crud]

>------ =3D_NextPart_000_01BCE1A5.69327860
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:    kathy roth [SMTP:[e-mail]]
>Sent:    vendredi, 24 octobre 1997 12:58
>To:    [e-mail]
>Subject:    (fractint) printing fractint
>
><snip>
>I think it would be too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because =
=3D
>it enables computer neophytes to do some really interesting things.
><snip>
>
>I would simply like to point out that the intention is not to remove =
the =3D
>"usability" of built-in formulae, but to minimize the size of the =3D
>executable: the formulaes would be just where you find them right now =
to =3D
>a user, but in fact, they would be stored on file like any other =3D
>formula, of something such.

[More computer crap]

>------ =3D_NextPart_000_01BCE1A5.69327860
>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64


[Smallish binary attachment snipped]

Please guys, PLEASE cut it out with the HTML, encoded headers, binaries,
and stuff. Post a fractal as a text PAR/FRM file... many of us have no
decoders, and binaries are poor netiquette on newsgroups and lists =
anyways.

I'm kinda tired of getting this kind of mail, and no legitimate =
answers... I mean, is this going to stop you from sleeping? I'm just =
typing at my keyboard, incorporating to bin att., no html, an no other =
strange sh*t...

BTW... I feel there is too much traffic here for my taste... any way to =
get news only from a development point of view? New versions and all... =
I would gladly trade this subscription for another, more to the point.

Now... please don't complain about this post... chances are, it's my =
last :)

CIAO!

'   '         '       '     '   '     '       '         '   '
Robin Y. Millette                            ICQ uin: 1266281
Waglo Institution         http://www.generation.net/~millette
Answer the Bovine Call!   DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5

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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE1EC.DB0376A0--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) RE: Eliminating built-in formulaes  (was: printing fractint)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 11:28:22 -0500

-----Original Message-----
fractint)

I'm kinda tired of getting this kind of mail, and no legitimate answers... I
mean, is this going to stop you from sleeping? I'm just typing at my
keyboard, incorporating to bin att., no html, an no other strange sh*t...
BTW... I feel there is too much traffic here for my taste... any way to get
news only from a development point of view? New versions and all... I would
gladly trade this subscription for another, more to the point.
Now... please don't complain about this post... chances are, it's my last :)

***

To keep your post in plain text (as opposed to HTML, which sadly is the
default for Outlook Express...) go to the Format menu in your message and
select "Plain Text."  It will keep your post from having HTML and MS-TNEF
attachments and also may keep people from yelling at you. :|

Or, for a permanent fix, in OE go the Tools | Options | Send and pick Plain
Text for Sending mail... then, if you need to use HTML messages, do as in
the first hint, but "HTML" instead.

You know you've done it right if you get the "Thank you for using the list"
thingy that is attached at the end of the message when it gets sent back to
you; in HTML it doesn't attach correctly.

I was gonna get preachy about people yelling at others about things, but I
changed my mind because I couldn't think of anything to say without sounding
snarky.

>>BKNambo
http://come.to/brocks.place [e-mail]



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Eliminating HTML codes from your postings (was: RE:
Date: 26 Oct 1997 18:22:08 +0100

>To keep your post in plain text (as opposed to HTML, which sadly is the
>default for Outlook Express...) go to the Format menu in your message and
>select "Plain Text."  It will keep your post from having HTML and MS-TNEF
>attachments and also may keep people from yelling at you. :|
>

To keep your postings in plain text, why don't you download the free mail
program Eudora Light from the 'net? IMHO, neither Microsoft nor Netscape
knows how to write a decent mailer.

Same thing goes for the newsreader: Find the program Free Agent on the web
somewhere (yes, Free - it means that it doesn't cost you a cent, except for
the download :-)). The beauty of this program is that you can connect to
your ISP and stay online for about 30 seconds, log off and then read all
the postings offline - exactly as you do with a mail program.

Eudora & Agent also follows the ancient rules of the 'net, in that they
doesn't try to impose HTML and other alien formats on what is basically
text-only media. Especially Microsoft gives me the feeling of an elephant
stomping around in the lettuce with their "if you're big enough, you can
get away with anything" attitude.

regards,
--
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B          [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: HTML vs. text (was Re: (fractint) screen savers)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 11:46:31 -0600

Paul Derbyshire wrote:
<MIME garbage deleted>
> Please don't post in HTML. Use plain text. Some subscribers (read: me)
> can't decode this crap.
>
OK, that's fine.  But what if I wanted to include some kind of useful
link to something?
AFAIK, you can't in plain text.  Or am I missing something here?  You
have a link in your signature, for example.  Without HTML, how does it
get there?

1 confused Justin K.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Eliminating HTML codes from your postings (was: RE: Eliminating built-in formulaes  (was: printing fractint))
Date: 26 Oct 1997 12:59:06 -0500

-----Original Message-----
Eliminating built-in formulaes (was: printing fractint))

To keep your postings in plain text, why don't you download the free mail
program Eudora Light from the 'net? IMHO, neither Microsoft nor Netscape
knows how to write a decent mailer.

***
Well, it's semi-decent; the MAJOR mistake they make is assuming everyone
else has it too. :(
***

Same thing goes for the newsreader: Find the program Free Agent on the web
somewhere (yes, Free - it means that it doesn't cost you a cent, except for
the download :-)). The beauty of this program is that you can connect to
your ISP and stay online for about 30 seconds, log off and then read all
the postings offline - exactly as you do with a mail program.

***
Outlook Express lets you do this too. (And it's free too, but the whole IE4
took me 3 days to download...)
***

Eudora & Agent also follows the ancient rules of the 'net, in that they
doesn't try to impose HTML and other alien formats on what is basically
text-only media. Especially Microsoft gives me the feeling of an elephant
stomping around in the lettuce with their "if you're big enough, you can
get away with anything" attitude.

***
Complicated, of course, by the fact that Microsoft thinks they own the
lettuce.

>>BKNambo "guilty of off-topic posting. life sentence? ..."
come.to/brocks.place [e-mail] (I think.)



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: HTML vs. text (was Re: (fractint) screen savers)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 13:22:37 -0500

-----Original Message-----


>OK, that's fine.  But what if I wanted to include some kind of useful
>link to something?
>AFAIK, you can't in plain text.  Or am I missing something here?  You
>have a link in your signature, for example.  Without HTML, how does it
>get there?
[chomp]
>-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
[munch]
>Justin Kolodziej is [e-mail]

Most mail and news readers (read: Microsoft, Netscape, Hotmail) recognize
the basic format of a URL and highlight it accordingly, and make a link.
For example, www.anything.whatsoever will probably show up as a highlighted
link, as well as mailto:somebody or http://anythingatall.  (Of course,
sometimes it will leave out vital portions or add in adjacent punctutation,
nobody's perfect.)

For example, I have a bizarre URL: it's come.to/brocks.place . Most readers
won't recognize that.  If I make it http://come.to/brocks.place , it (to me,
anyway) is automatically a link.

>>BKNambo "No, that's not a shameless plug.. <g>"
http://come.to/brocks.place [e-mail]



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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: HTML vs. text (was Re: (fractint) screen savers)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 17:02:46 -0600

> Most mail and news readers (read: Microsoft, Netscape, Hotmail) recognize
> the basic format of a URL and highlight it accordingly, and make a link.
> For example, www.anything.whatsoever will probably show up as a highlighted
> link, as well as mailto:somebody or http://anythingatall.  (Of course,
> sometimes it will leave out vital portions or add in adjacent punctutation,
> nobody's perfect.)
>
> For example, I have a bizarre URL: it's come.to/brocks.place . Most readers
> won't recognize that.  If I make it http://come.to/brocks.place , it (to me,
> anyway) is automatically a link.
>
OK, I get it now.  Except that Netscape Communicator's mail program
(Messenger) didn't highlight www.anything.whatsoever...  Piece of junk!
I'd try it in Outlook Express, except Internet Exploder 4.0 lived up to
its name on my system.  It made my systeem soooooo unstable, with more
crashes than usual! I can't see how anyone could actually use IE4.0...
(Warning! Warning! Message extremely off topic! Quit now or you will be
dropped!)
Gee, I'd better quit now.

Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is mailto:[e-mail]

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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:HTML vs. text (Kolodziej)
Date: 26 Oct 1997 18:30:24 -0500



>  Netscape Communicator's mail program
> (Messenger) didn't highlight www.anything.whatsoever...
>
Justin, I believe that the reason for this failure might be that you did
not mark your own card in Address Book as preferring the HTML format.  I
have mine so marked and links are all received highlighted.  Marking
YOUR OWN card this way will not affect in what format your mail is sent
out.  There is another setting for that in Preferences.  Gedeon.


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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) back to fractals
Date: 26 Oct 1997 18:44:18 -0600

Ok, I think the mail/html/attachment thread has run it's course. I
don't mind this topic in moderation as it can be helpful to list
readers. If folks want to continue this, just respond to the
individual rather than to the list.

Looks like the consensus is to avoid attachments and HTML in list
messages. If everyone is careful with their mailer settings (wide
enough margin, something like 75 characters or so), both sending and
receiving, it should be possible to avoid scrambling PAR entries.

Earlier I said that we'd probably not have any more incremental
releases of Fractint before a major new release. However Robin
Bussell would like his evolver to see the light of day, so when he
finishes it up, we'll probably release it. This is a mechanism that
lets you specify some parameters, and fills the screen with
thumbnails showing the results of varying those parameters. It's an
interesting exploration tool.

No promised data, but I'd suggest late this year or early next year.
This will be version 20.0, but it's more like any of the 19.x
releases that have been fairly incremental. We have gone way too long
without a major version release, which is why we'll call it 20.0.
This means that the blockbluster major new release with PNG and
Truecolor will be version 21. That one will be much later in 1998.

Tim


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From: Warwick Pulley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 27 Oct 1997 13:10:32 +1100 (EST)

"J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> le 21 Oct 97 a 20:39, R. J. Jonker ecrivait (R. J. Jonker wrote) :
>
> > <Win95 grapics problems deleted>
> >
> I think that it is a problem with the graphic card : I have had no problem
> with Cirrus Logic cards, but some S3 cards (S3 Trio if I remember) can
> only be used with Fractint in a true Dos session, and not in a Dos session
> under Windows 95 (whatever settings you choose the this session). I have
> changed my card... some (many ?) cards are only partially VESA compatible.

What sort of card would you recommend?  I'm looking for a new graphics
card (you guessed it... I've got an S3 Trio!)

Warwick.

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From: Donald Archer <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) fractal music
Date: 27 Oct 1997 00:23:37 -0500 (EST)

Friends,

I've got some fractal music written and posted to
my site. It was composed in Art Song from RGB color
values extracted from one of my Fractint images and sequenced in Orchestra
Plus. IMHO, it's the best fractal music ever written. This music is in MIDI
format and a soundcard is required. The music files
are located on my homepage and on the four pages
of new U-draw fractals at these sites:

http://www.dorsai.org/~arch

and/or

http://www.ingress.com/~arch

Thanks for listening!
Don


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From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: HTML vs. text (was Re: (fractint) screen savers)
Date: 27 Oct 1997 11:56:27 +0200 (EET)




On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Justin A. Kolodziej wrote:

> Paul Derbyshire wrote:
> <MIME garbage deleted>
> > Please don't post in HTML. Use plain text. Some subscribers (read: me)
> > can't decode this crap.
> >
> OK, that's fine.  But what if I wanted to include some kind of useful
> link to something?
> AFAIK, you can't in plain text.  Or am I missing something here?  You
> have a link in your signature, for example.  Without HTML, how does it
> get there?
>

Netscape mail, Outlook, and Eudora Light version 1.5.4 and above interpret
URLs written in plaintext as links. There is no need to write them as HTML
links.

Uri



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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractint v19.6 Windows 95
Date: 27 Oct 1997 12:14:57 +2

le 27 Oct 97 a 13:10, Warwick Pulley ecrivait (Warwick Pulley wrote) :

> > I think that it is a problem with the graphic card : I have had no problem with
> > Cirrus Logic cards, but some S3 cards (S3 Trio if I remember) can only be used
> > with Fractint in a true Dos session, and not in a Dos session under Windows 95
> > (whatever settings you choose the this session). I have changed my card... some
> > (many ?) cards are only partially VESA compatible.
>
> What sort of card would you recommend?  I'm looking for a new graphics
> card (you guessed it... I've got an S3 Trio!)
>
I have had no problems with cheap Cirrus Logic cards. More recently I have
used a Matrox Mystic and I don't notice any problem. I can also use a DOS
session under Windows 95 with a S3 Virge 325 card, but I have sometimes
some garbage on the screen when I switch from text screen to graphic
screen. Other users might give more information about this problem ?

Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for
Date: 27 Oct 1997 11:43:10 +2

le 25 Oct 97 a 0:26, Tim Wegner ecrivait (Tim Wegner wrote) :


> Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
> trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
> programmer time to do.
>
> I can see some value in this, but on the negative side it's not good to
> duplicate formulas all over the place. It represents the ultimate
> non-normalized database. For this reason it has seemed to me better to
> maintain collections of formulas in one place on each artist's machine.
>
> My feeling is a natural time to consider this is when we move to PNG, and
> will be redesigning how data is stored in fractals anyway. I'm open to
> the suggestion to have the formula be part of the image. Maybe it should
> be optional. If you make 1000 images from one formula, you's be storing
> the formula 1000 times. The only time it makes sense is when you are
> distributing the image and want it to be self-contained.
>
Being more or less lazy, I think that it would be very useful for images
exchanges if formulae as well as par. are stored in images.
As a side remark, the only reason to suggest that fractint might support
JPG would be the storage of these informations in the image files (always
for lazy users, like me).

Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Traynor)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for
Date: 27 Oct 1997 07:29:38 -0500 (EST)

>> Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
>> trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
>> programmer time to do.

I'd like to see Fractint store the formula when you create the par.  This
could be an option like the record colours option.  It would make par files
more portable, and should be relatively easy to do (based on my vast fund
of ingnorance about the technical side of things).


--
Mike Traynor

People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    Abraham Lincoln

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 27 Oct 1997 09:36:40 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)  writes:
> NOOO! Not attachments. Some people (I for one) using text-oriented mail
> software can't decode attachments.

Sounds like people don't know how to attach text files if you're
having to decode them.  Text files can be attached in cleartext.
Encoding of attachments is only needed for binary attachments like
image files.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 27 Oct 1997 09:37:44 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)  writes:
> Medium mmory this, medium memory that, you're constraining yourselves too
> much. There are 32 bit flat model development environments [...]

Yes, we know this.  My point is that fractint hasn't yet been ported
to a flat model.  Its still in the medium memory model.  This has been
a barrier for adding a number of features proposed by various
programmers, which was my point in bringing it up.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Anne Dimmock <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) my site
Date: 27 Oct 1997 16:54:37 PST

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:12:30 -0700 cindy mitchell wrote:

> I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
> would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
> Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
> using IE?

Apart from being very slow I liked the presentation - clear and clean. The wallpaper
suited the images well. I am using IE 3.2 at 640x480x256 and the display was still
easy to follow around. I rate this site highly.

Nigel.



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 27 Oct 1997 09:58:55 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> This is exactly the plan, except I don't want to put the information
> in a comment block, because then the contents won't be reliable.
> Anyone can edit a comment, possibly in ways that would break
> fractint's ability to read it.

Hrm.... except there are programs that are designed to extract
comments exactly because they can depend on the format/contents of a
comment block to be plain text.  Yes, there are programs like
'strings' in unix that extract all printable strings, but they extract
all kinds of junk as well that just happens to be printable ASCII.
I don't see what the big deal is about including it in a comment.  If
you want an inviolate data structure, then also add in the fractint
specific binary chunk.  We're not talking large amounts of data here!

> Fractint could have an option to write fractal information in a
> conventional comment if users want it. I just don't want that to be
> the info that fractint itself uses.

What is the big concern here?
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) message formatting
Date: 27 Oct 1997 10:01:33 -0700


Tim, you might also want to suggest that people NOT use
printed-quotable as a content transfer encoding when posting to this
list.  This is the single biggest pain when trying to extract a PAR or
FRM file from a message when it hasn't been included as an attachment.

("Content-Transfer-Encoding: printed-quotable" is the source of all
the extraneous ='s in people's messages.)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: HTML vs. text (was Re: (fractint) screen savers)
Date: 27 Oct 1997 10:02:34 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> OK, that's fine.  But what if I wanted to include some kind of useful
> link to something?
> AFAIK, you can't in plain text.

The standard way to do this so that the URLs can be recognized within
a chunk of plain text is to write the fully qualified URL surrounded
by "<URL:" and ">", like this:

<URL: http://spanky.triumf.ca>
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 27 Oct 1997 17:11:58 -0400 (AST)

On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Tim Wegner wrote:

> I don't know what to say. Attachments have the advantage of not
> scrambling PAR files, but many readers find them irritating or
> inaccessible. But it is also irritating to have a PAR scrambled in
> a message.

"Text Attachments" should be used for PAR files, that is it is plain text,
without word wrap (I only care about word wrap for human readable
text) NOT binary encoding such as base64, uuencode, or BinHex -- these
are seen by some as evil unless you are transferring binary data which no
one should be doing on this mailing list.

Maybe a better way is with a PAR exchange database/web interface. Can we
add a PAR retrieval client to FractInt 21? Something like PGP's public
key server <URL:http://www.pgp.com/keyserver/> were users can submit PAR
files via email, WWW, and a custom TCP service (hkp). PAR can have a link
to the formula in the "Fractint formula database" to help normalize the
data stored. Images wouldn't need PAR stored with them, only a link to
the PAR registered with the FractInt PAR database. URLs are short text :)
I'm not serious.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
New Brunswick Linux Users Group <http://www.glyphmetrics.ca/~nblug/>


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From: Anne Dimmock <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 08:32:16 PST

On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:11:58 -0400 (AST) mctaylor wrote:

> From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:11:58 -0400 (AST)
> Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
> To: [e-mail]
>
> On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Tim Wegner wrote:
>
> > I don't know what to say. Attachments have the advantage of not
> > scrambling PAR files, but many readers find them irritating or
> > inaccessible. But it is also irritating to have a PAR scrambled in
> > a message.
>
> "Text Attachments" should be used for PAR files, that is it is plain text,
> without word wrap (I only care about word wrap for human readable
> text) NOT binary encoding such as base64, uuencode, or BinHex -- these
> are seen by some as evil unless you are transferring binary data which no
> one should be doing on this mailing list.

From my point of view ALL attachments are useless - my usual email is ELM on the
campus UNIX server - this does not allow any attachments to be read, text or not.
We edit with MicroEMACs :-(

If those who post attachments are prepared to accept requests direct for text
versions (I am perfectly willing to edit hard returns!) then attachments could be ok.

Thanks for letting me have my say.

Nigel Long.

Any resemblence between my opinions and those of the University of Southampton
is purely coincidental - and pretty damn unlikely.
Windows 95 is the world's number one virus.



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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 12:43:42 +2

le 28 Oct 97 a 8:32, Anne Dimmock ecrivait (Anne Dimmock wrote) :

 >From my point of view ALL attachments are useless - my usual email is
ELM on the
> campus UNIX server - this does not allow any attachments to be read, text
> or not. We edit with MicroEMACs :-(

I use a PC, Pegasus mail and the POP3 server of the Institute is a Sun
station. All this discussion sounds me to be out of age !

It is strange to see that the users of the most powerful computers are
also the users of the most prehistoric tools. And about a previous message
reproving Quote-printable encoding, it is less surprising to see that
English speaking people forget that most languages use letters which are
not in the poor 7 bit ASCII table.
This is deliberately written to be flamed :-( or :-) ???

And it is clearly out of the scope of this mailing list...

Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) My Web Site
Date: 28 Oct 1997 10:01:54 -0500

Hi Everyone,

  I just reorganized my Web Site and would like to invite you to visit th=
e
new ZPlot Gallery.

  The URLs are:

  - English version:
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm

  - Version fran=E7aise:
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepagf.htm

  Your comments are welcome!

  Cheers,

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  In English:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm
  En Fran=E7ais:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepagf.htm



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 11:36:52 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> ... And about a previous message
> reproving Quote-printable encoding, it is less surprising to see that
> English speaking people forget that most languages use letters which are
> not in the poor 7 bit ASCII table.

I understand that perfectly, but it has come up repeatedly that people
say the "PAR file doesn't work" and so on.  The cause has been people
cutting and pasting printed-quotable encoded messages.  If the PAR
file had been sent as an attachment, it wouldn't have had this
problem.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Results of my speech on fractals
Date: 28 Oct 1997 12:35:39 -0600

Just felt I should tell you how my speech went, since I asked about how
to pronounce Mandelbrot's name earlier.

In 2 words: It sucked!

Here's the reasons I know that it did:
1.  It lasted (from my perspective) about 2 minutes when it was supposed
to last from 5 to 7.
2.  The professor STILL didn't really know what fractals were when I
finished.
I could probably have fixed both problems by using Mandelbrot's
(technical) definition of a fractal:  "A set for which the Hausdorff
Besicovitch definition strictly exceeds the topological dimension."  But
then I'd have to explain what that means, and my speech would drag on
for 20 minutes and confuse the hell out of everyone! <vbg> Instead I
used the following definition: Looks the same no matter what scale you
look at.

Not only that, but I have to watch the videotape of myself and critique
myself!  That will be nearly impossible to do fairly because I've
already determined that I sucked.

The only good part of the speech was my visual aids, which were pictures
of fractals generated with -- you guessed it -- Fractint!  I've finally
done something useful with the program. :)

Justin Kolodziej

 Bad(?) Linux slogans:
-- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! --
-- Linux: The OS of champions! --
-- Linux: Marquette's Web server <URL:http://www.mu.edu/> uses it,
shouldn't you? --
-- Linux: Because it's free --
-- Linux: Because you can --
-- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! --
Justin Kolodziej is mailto:[e-mail]

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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 19:58:33 +2

le 28 Oct 97 a 11:36, Rich Thomson ecrivait (Rich Thomson wrote) :

> I understand that perfectly, but it has come up repeatedly that people
> say the "PAR file doesn't work" and so on.  The cause has been people
> cutting and pasting printed-quotable encoded messages.  If the PAR file
> had been sent as an attachment, it wouldn't have had this problem.

Happy that you agree that it is impossible to deny both quote-printable
AND attachment !


Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: "J.P. Louvet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) My Web Site
Date: 28 Oct 1997 20:04:10 +2

le 28 Oct 97 a 10:01, Sylvie Gallet ecrivait (Sylvie Gallet wrote) :

> Hi Everyone,
>
>   I just reorganized my Web Site and would like to invite you to visit
>   the
> new ZPlot Gallery.

 Sylvie,
Your new fractals are true jewels !

Jean-Pierre

For other readers : you can see 24 fractals made with Zplot 24 in the
pages 15 and 16 of my Album.

Zplot 24 is a very great program (a challenge for Fractint).

Jean-Pierre louvet : [e-mail]
Fractal album :
http://graffiti.cribx1.u-bordeaux.fr/MAPBX/louvet/jpl0.html

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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 11:17:23 PST



    This whole thread is getting silly. You can sing the benefits
of using attachments and/or print quotable until the cows come home
but the bottom line is that a good number of people have problems reading
messages using either or both of these techniques. I personally can
handle both types with a little extra effort on my part but I still
prefer plaintext. Let's remember that the intention was to post
formula and parameter sets that people can use. If you want to reach
the widest range of potential users, then it is important to use the
most widely acceptable format. You can preach to people about the great
features of any newsreader/mailer and wail about people in the computer
dark ages still using stone age tools but that is the reality of the
net. It is a collection of people and computers under a wide range
of circumstances and not everyone is capable or wants to
buy/learn/download/change-systems in order to see your fractal image.
If you want people to take the time to look at your work then make
it as easy as possible for the greatest number.

    Cheers,
    Noel Giffin

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From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 16:17:39 -0400 (AST)

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, NOEL_GIFFIN wrote:

>     This whole thread is getting silly. You can sing the benefits
> of using attachments and/or print quotable until the cows come home

I think the solution is, not to use email to transmit "files" whether they
are text-based or not. I think the easier to use from the end user (both
contributer and retreiver) is a Web-based PAR database similar to the PGP
public key database at MIT.

Maybe if I find some time I could modify the code for PARs...

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
New Brunswick Linux Users Group <http://www.glyphmetrics.ca/~nblug/>


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From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 28 Oct 1997 13:31:26 PST

J.P. Louvet wrote:

> I agree with you from a theoretical point of you about JPG.
 ...
> But from a theoretical point of view I can't agree about anti-aliasing.
 ...

> The problem is that your  image is a collection of discrete
> values, when the fractal formula is continuous. Moreover the screen
> displays the mathematical dimensionless points by pixels having a visible
> area.

Yes, this is a common problem with digital representations of continuous data.
Sampling rate must exceed max signal frequency or distortion is produced. I'm
not saying anti-aliasing is not useful, but I think that there are problems here
that are often overlooked when people quote this. There was a long discussion
on the fractal-art mailing list about this a few months back and some very
valuable insight came of it. Much anti-aliasing is applied to images (particularly
GIF after they have been reduced to 8 bits/pixel). This is a considerable loss
of data. Whatever colouring algorithm you are using, at this point you are
probably giving up most of the useful information about the point under test and
creating an element from a linear array of integer values. Then you further
reduce the available information by applying a filter. My experience with this
tells me that anti-aliasing shouldn't be applied to GIF fractal images if you
can help it. Pixels representing local maxima/minima get washed out and palette
depth is reduced. If you are going to anti-alias, you are better off doing it
on the full iteration count if you are doing escape time algorithms, or on some
longer format data value representing the result of your algorithm and then
apply the colouring algorithm. When fractint implements PNG format then this
won't be as significant because there will be 24 bits/pixel but I still think
it is better to apply the anti-aliasing before the pixel values are calculated.

Then you still have to reduce the image size or you really aren't over-sampling,
but just applying a blur filter. I think probably 2 times over-sampling would
be a minimum before anti-aliasing would give a reasonable representation of the
underlying data.

    Noel Giffin


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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 14:36:17 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    mctaylor <[e-mail]>  writes:
> I think the solution is, not to use email to transmit "files" whether they
> are text-based or not. I think the easier to use from the end user (both
> contributer and retreiver) is a Web-based PAR database similar to the PGP
> public key database at MIT.

The downside to this approach is that if you include the PAR/FRM/etc
file with your mail message, it will be archived along with the rest
of the mailing list messages.  If you only provide a pointer to the
PAR/FRM/etc file somewhere else on the web, it is unlikely to ever be
archived along with your referring message.  The web is a very
unreliable place in terms of archiving.  People always reorgnize their
site (the URL then changes and the old URL stops working or only works
for a short period of time after the reorg) and are always running out
of disk space, deleting their old offerings.  So, we should all:

1. include PAR/FRM/etc. files in mail messages and not in some
    separate location on the net
2. not include them as attachments(*)
3. not include them in printed-quotable Content-Transfer-Encoding(*)

(*) -- these limitations are only there because of the lowest common
denominator among mail programs.  Eventually the majority of us will
be able to handle content-transfer-encoding: printed-quotable and
attachments without difficulty and these constraints could be removed.

The most important part I think is the archiving.  Do you really think
all these URLs posted here will be valid in 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?
Chances are that after all those URLs have become stale, the fractint
mailing list archive will still be available at its current location
by FTP.  (<URL: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/fractint/>)
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mctaylor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 28 Oct 1997 19:03:58 -0400 (AST)

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Rich Thomson wrote:

> In article <[e-mail]> ,
>     mctaylor <[e-mail]>  writes:
> > contributer and retreiver) is a Web-based PAR database similar to the PGP
> > public key database at MIT.
>
> The downside to this approach is that if you include the PAR/FRM/etc
> file with your mail message, it will be archived along with the rest
> of the mailing list messages.  If you only provide a pointer to the
> PAR/FRM/etc file somewhere else on the web, it is unlikely to ever be
>
> The most important part I think is the archiving.  Do you really think
> all these URLs posted here will be valid in 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?
> Chances are that after all those URLs have become stale, the fractint
> mailing list archive will still be available at its current location
> by FTP.  (<URL: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/fractint/>)

If we use a virtual domain it can be easily moved, redudent web farming
like pgp.net makes it easy for one person to stop hosting it, and another
join in sharing the load. The database key isn't going to change after its
been entered.

I'm not talking each person maintain their own database, but submit their
to a common database.

I won't bet on how long any URL will be valid. I have valid URLs from
1994, that doesn't mean much.

--
Michael C. Taylor <[e-mail]> <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/>
 Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada
 sci.fractals FAQ <http://www.mta.ca/~mctaylor/sci.fractals-faq/>
New Brunswick Linux Users Group <http://www.glyphmetrics.ca/~nblug/>


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From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) My Web Site
Date: 28 Oct 1997 18:08:33 -0500


>> Your new fractals are true jewels !

  Thank you, Jean-Pierre.

>> For other readers : you can see 24 fractals made with Zplot 24 in the =

>> pages 15 and 16 of my Album.

  Really great collection!  One can also find some fractals made with Zpl=
ot
24 on Terry Gintz' site:
    <http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5601/gallery.htm>

>> Zplot 24 is a very great program (a challenge for Fractint).

  I totally agree but as most Fractint user, I'm looking forward to havin=
g
a True Color version of Fractint!

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  In English:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm
  En Fran=E7ais:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepagf.htm

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From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 28 Oct 1997 18:21:17 -0600

Rich asked:

> What is the big concern here?

The big concern is this. There are many ways to write or even edit
comment blocks. If Fractint reads a comment block for fractal info,
it won't know if fractint wrote the comment block, or even if it
did, it won't know if the comment block was editted and damaged by a
user. Accessing the fractal data in an editable comment block
will be a big pain, and will never work reliably.

Fractint needs an area that is only editable by Fractint itself. It
doesn't need to be binary. In fact, I like the idea of PAR style tex
used for fractal data.

In order to make Fractint reliable, I want fractal data in an
application-specific PNG chunk, which is similar to Fractint's
current extension block.

Are you aware of fractint's makepar= command? THis is a feature I put
in at the request of Lee Skinner. It converts fractint's data from
GIF files into entries in a PAR. It works in batch mode. You can use
it to convert a whole directory of GIFs into a PAR file.



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From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
Date: 28 Oct 1997 17:34:56 -0700


In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> Fractint needs an area that is only editable by Fractint itself. It
> doesn't need to be binary. In fact, I like the idea of PAR style tex
> used for fractal data.

My philosophy on the "I edited the comment and now it doesn't work
anymore" take is WYGIWYD (what you get is what you deserve), but
that's just me :)

> Are you aware of fractint's makepar= command?

Yep, but I'd still prefer the fractal data be stored as plain text.
--
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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From: Lee Skinner <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint PHC web page
Date: 28 Oct 1997 20:15:08 -0500

Hi All,

  I have a Fractint PHCs converted to truecolor PNGs web page at

 http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/lee/lee.html

Enjoy!


Lee Skinner

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From: cindy mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) my site
Date: 29 Oct 1997 08:23:02 -0800

Hi Nigel,
Thank you for visiting my site. I appreciate your comments. The site is
still under constuction. I believe for easier loading I will go for a
thumbnail representing each gallery. Will appreciate any comments.
                   Cindy
At 04:54 PM 10/27/97 PST, you wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:12:30 -0700 cindy mitchell wrote:
>
>> I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
>> would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
>> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
>> Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
>> using IE?
>
>Apart from being very slow I liked the presentation - clear and clean. The
wallpaper
>suited the images well. I am using IE 3.2 at 640x480x256 and the display
was still
>easy to follow around. I rate this site highly.
>
>Nigel.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


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From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint PHC web page
Date: 29 Oct 1997 08:21:17 -0500

Hi Lee,

>>   I have a Fractint PHCs converted to truecolor PNGs web page at
>>
>>  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/lee/lee.html

  Great images, I loved them all!  Congratulations!

  Cheers,

        - Sylvie

  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  In English:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm
  En Fran=E7ais:
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepagf.htm

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From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: a solution? was: Re: (fractint) problem with par files
Date: 29 Oct 1997 11:48:46 -0800


I think the whole problem is line wrap.  Some of us must
use emailers that do line wrap on transmit. This can't
line wrap the color part. So an extra line feed gets sent.
Try this, since I know mine line wraps. I include a par
here with color lines cut manually by me before
sending.  I use the \ character in the middle of the color
lines to end the color lines. This is the usual C style
line continuation.  If no one has trouble with this,
a solution would be to cut the color lines this way
before posting.  If Fractint made the par with lines
about 8 characters shorter, all this problem might
go away.


Novana-Flower      { ; Jay Hill
       ; after [e-mail]
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nova.frm
  formulaname=novena
  center-mag=-0.039039/0.506089/3.245722/1/180
  params=0.51/0/1e-007/0
  maxiter=1023 fillcolor=222 potential=255/255/0
  colors=000AA9<19>ffa<10>RROPPMOOLMMJLLI\
  <8>776W00<14>z00<15>W00688<22>chh\
  <23>68800z<6>0zz<7>00zDBE<21>daeebfdae\
  <22>DBEWG0<6>zW0<7>WG08CE<21>ahpbi\
  rahp<22>8CE776997
  }



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From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: (Fractint) problem with par files
Date: 29 Oct 1997 16:45:45 -0500

From my point of view, Jay Hill's solution to the problem by manually
cutting long lines is the ideal one.  Thanks Jay. It's a sure thing, and
I don't mind the manual editing involved.  His was the first parameter
file I received through this list which I was able to load into Fractint
without any manual editing.  Now let me hastily add, lest the point of
my raising this issue of double spaced lines a few days ago be
misunderstood, that I had no problem or complaint whatever with having
manually to edit parameter files of others.  That certainly is no big
deal, as I believe I wrote.  My concern began when I posted my first
parameter file, and noticed that despite having set all codes and
formats carefully, the lines still got double spaced by the time my own
message got back to me. And that disturbed me because I wholeheartedly
agree with what Noel Giffin wrote: "If you want people to take the time
to look at your work then make it as easy as possible for the greatest
number."
    In any event, here are a couple of parameters on Tim's "challenge"
formula, formatted (and successfully tested) in the "Jay Hill mode."  As
for Tim's remarks about this formula having "zero mathematical insight,"
and that it came from his "subconscious"; how can both these claims be
true?  I, for one, am convinced that anything which came from Tim's
subconscious is, ipso facto, full of mathematical insight.

    Gedeon

;The following formula was posted on the Fractint list on 10/21/97 by
;Tim Wegner

Tim's_fract { ; Example of a more or less random formula
  z = Pixel:
   ; I have no clue what the point of this formula is
   ; it came straight from my subconcious <g!>
  z = (sinh(z*z + log(z)))/(z*z + 2)
  |z| <= 16
  }

;Here are two parameters for the above formula.  Put your formulafile
;name where the XXXXXXXX are.


tim's_fract1       {;  0:02:01.38
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=XXXXXXXX.frm
  formulaname=Tim's_fract passes=1
  center-mag=-0.75721338320859590/+0.44677702045816680\
  /175.1683/1/72.499/0\
  .001 float=y maxiter=1023 potential=255/999/0
  colors=000ZneGYNO`GXd96RL4ND2J5KUU\
  <2>tQ_Ia_<2>kvwJlK4dT0oUZMRyDPBVT<2>NV\
  SJ_ZUedekjCJOG6IlaaFTUMQVTNW`KXfEpJaPVh\
  LfoG6NX3Ea9UaBTjIdfSot6yAWdUsnV8S\
  T8PUJTZUQddNkJOT<2>p1R9SX<2>EIhANWDE_\
  G5cBjPFzKFjcMznc0bMON`HGo99LRQ<2>yE\
  HVXeq_sIYO<2>nh69haAvjA8gzKpBdOFoIBYT\
  <2>MfS9UYBTcGaFOi0WUIsS6LYPZ`LldG8_\
  _8df9jnLMTHW_<2>gZuRObjGlLTIZQ7NwiCNN\
  GEGL59C9pOdTcnSsxRPXReZOw`Lk8u9TO<2\
  >FL69MKADBC310nWUhZpweVS`qPhUZRpbOP\
  a`fhizAjHVfRVtZG_z1fJPS<2>p5MUgIou6EW\
  WLYZS_bJBXHWS<2>hZMQgehtr8VP<2>7TCFXT\
  <2>_cTFXY<2>`emV`yw0rAZX<2>JjhCPU<2>\
  Q5X7SY<2>2HoEOUKHVRAXD`ZIgdNnjBXZ<2>\
  NcqOQ_cKgsEoaBGGPZ<2>d7sGVLOVDXU4Na\
  MbhFro7LYcY`nkdzIObSHmbAxFPNNJGVD9kg\
  BYaJxh8LY`<2>yhx00LJZS<2>rmNm7CIx`FZ\
  Y<2>ajmHWW<2>g_dNTSaRQqPOcdwHPY98CW39<2>\
  UxGB96S`nLdZ
  }

tim's_fract2       {;   0:01:34.31
                    ;   Check out float=yes too.
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=XXXXXXXX.frm
  formulaname=tim's_fract passes=1
  center-mag=-4.414e-005/0.000100135/0.2708882/1/90
  maxiter=1023 potential=255/200/0
  colors=0006Ng<20>TeuUfvTev<22>5MfFLM\
  <14>bhj<15>FLM03g<5>9ClBEmDGnFIoGJp<\
  12>`bz<20>58j47i25h03g0Wz<14>00W<15>\
  0WzFLM<14>bhj<15>FLMJKQ<13>eej<15>JK\
  Q00z<14>0zz<15>00z5Mf
  }

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractal of the Minute 10/29/97 :-)
Date: 29 Oct 1997 16:41:28 -0800


At 15:30 10/15/97 -0700, I wrote:
>>
>>I created giant files with every midget through period 16 (nearly
>>65000) and many thousands more through period 64. I viewed
>>many of these with Fractint which draws them at a pace of a
>>second or each.  It can get hypnotic.

[e-mail] asked:

> any chance you'd make said files available somewhere? :)

Here is a sample from one of the files, all have period 47.  I call
these Fractal of the Minute because the file has 764 pars which
is more than 12 hours worth at one a minute.  That is how long
they take to draw with 1024x768, passes = guessing.

Each image is rotated and scaled so that the midget has a
constant orientation and size throughout the file.  Feel free to
zoom in a little or all the way out.  For fast viewing, I set up on
320x200 and hit   @, Down arrow, Enter as fast as the images
are drawn.  Also, it is fun to zoom in from the unit magnification
(Hit   z, F6 and make the magnification = 1.)  You have here
764 short zoom 'movies' by zooming in with the PageUp
method.   Some of the images are zoomed in by 10^10 or
more.

Nice.map is any 'nice' map you wish to use.  Copy your favorite
to a file named nice.map and open this par file.  I view these with
high resolution and passes=g which I put in the first one.   I have
placed the zipped par file on my web page.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825/

Since there are about  70,368,744,177,660 more images where
I got these. At 8 hours a day,  I'll be about 400,000,000 years
getting through them.  That is, if I don't stop to enjoy any.  It looks
like I'll need some help, so if any one out there ...   :-)

Don't you hate it when media guys say that? Like we are
'out there'.  After 400,000,000 years of midget viewing I'll
definitely be 'out there'.    B^)

Enjoy

Jay

==========MISI47AB.PAR=========

1018_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -1.2538588622123    0.0467436231787
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y passes=g

center-mag=-1.253858862212305780/0.046743623178726206/106154984.6/1.0/81.89
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1022_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -1.2521814718499    0.0344648871836
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-1.252181471849910530/0.034464887183612983/1012804.2/1.0/117.55
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1040_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.7491699577622    0.0751839104802
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.749169957762217556/0.075183910480232180/2901464.7/1.0/-67.62
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1088_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.7907588784688    0.1592844139361
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y
  center-mag=-0.790758878468808462/0.159284413936090482/1033429.9/1.0/45.68
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1111_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.8157439160115    0.1909379380060
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y
  center-mag=-0.815743916011549023/0.190937938006027655/25096630.7/1.0/3.38
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1163_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.8713843798881    0.2408360557804
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.871384379888050845/0.240836055780375777/9320141942.8/1.0/26.2
8
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1234_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997    0.3861458257488    0.3035936894313
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=0.386145825748841121/0.303593689431307051/2458428288.7/1.0/-1.03
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1301_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.5495742130910    0.6507613622440
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.54957421309097331/0.65076136224400527/17657627775./1./-160.17
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1468_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.1464502161565    0.8422956849124
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.146450216156543354/0.842295684912351654/30975265261.7/1.0/152
.15
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1585_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997    0.0205157923403    0.6352078575549
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=0.020515792340289694/0.635207857554878750/1610134585.6/1.0/-75.2
8
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1595_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.3464108112989    0.6416998188850
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.346410811298922093/0.641699818885025875/10938341826.4/1.0/142
.27
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1665_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.5214505624007    0.6729234760273
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.521450562400681949/0.672923476027298605/554271996.9/1.0/-147.
62
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }
1729_47_0 { ; (C) Jay Hill 1997   -0.2022860092052    0.8231818685000
  reset=1960 type=mandel params=0/0 maxiter=4096 float=y

center-mag=-0.202286009205237610/0.823181868500041478/29684407.2/1.0/144.28
  colors=@nice.map inside=1
  }



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal of the Minute 10/29/97 :-)
Date: 29 Oct 1997 17:46:23 -0800


Hi ya'all out there  :-)

There are about a dozen hand edits you will need to do in my par
file posting. Sorry about that.  Please, do take the trouble so you
can play it.  Look for one or two digit over flows of the center-mag=
line and a few blank lines.

The complete file is on my web page as noted. It  should
require no editing to run.

Jay

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825/




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