ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/fractdev/archive/fractdev.200001

Internet Message Format | 2000-01-31 | 25KB

From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 05 Jan 2000 20:51:32 -0600

Rich said:

> but I personally would feel more
> comfortable setting up additional resources like a CVS server, etc.,
> on XMission.  I am not the only developer, obviously, so a consensus
> should be reached before making any final decisions.  Also, I would
> defer to Tim's preference.

I didn't realize that we could extend the services we have with
xmission. I looked at sourceforge today and saw a lot to like. The
best thing about it is that they have user-controlled software so
everything can be managed without intervention on their part. I also
liked the ability to have a permanent email address to avoid the
nuisance I am going through right now changing my email.

 I always hate to bother the xmission folks because I know I am
getting a free service. But on the other hand, I don't think we have
demanded a lot from them and been too much of a nuisance.

We could use a CVS repository, a modest web site, and an FTP
site. As long as spanky.triumf.ca is active, we don't need an
extensive user-oriented site, just enough to support developers. Of
course that could change if spanky every goes away.

If you are willing to get us extended services from xmission, and
you don't think this is asking too much, I agree that this would be
better than sourceforge. I feel better with you around to give support
when we are getting started. Wouldn't we need shell accounts at
xmission?

The other resource we have is that Damien Jones has offerred
space on hist server for FTP and a web page. I was intending to
register the fractint.org domain and have it point to fractalus. I was
reconsidering that when I looked at sourceforge today. Damien
does not want to set up CVS.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Phil McRevis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 05 Jan 2000 20:02:58 -0700


In article <[e-mail]>,
    Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>  writes:

>  I always hate to bother the xmission folks because I know I am
> getting a free service. But on the other hand, I don't think we have
> demanded a lot from them and been too much of a nuisance.

Well its not like you are freeloading on them and that's all.  I am
here, after all, and I am a paying xmission customer.  Having a
mailing list is part of the basic subscription package at xmission (in
fact, 4 mailing lists is in the basic package!).  The fract* lists
were set up at my request, so you needn't feel like you are totally
welching off them ;-).

> We could use a CVS repository, a modest web site, and an FTP
> site. As long as spanky.triumf.ca is active, we don't need an
> extensive user-oriented site, just enough to support developers. Of
> course that could change if spanky every goes away.

I have even talked with Noel about setting up a mirror here at
xmission of spanky in case something fatal happens to it.  Spanky is
an old vaxstation if I recall correctly and had a close call recently.

> If you are willing to get us extended services from xmission, and
> you don't think this is asking too much, I agree that this would be
> better than sourceforge. I feel better with you around to give support
> when we are getting started. Wouldn't we need shell accounts at
> xmission?

I think you can do everything with an FTP login, but I could also get
a shell account created.

> The other resource we have is that Damien Jones has offerred
> space on hist server for FTP and a web page. I was intending to
> register the fractint.org domain and have it point to fractalus. I was
> reconsidering that when I looked at sourceforge today. Damien
> does not want to set up CVS.

I'm easy on this.  I even have a P90 with a 10 GB drive on it I could
colocate in XMission's machine room if resources are an issue.
--
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/>    Legalize Adulthood!
    ``Ain't it funny that they all fire the pistol,
      at the wrong end of the race?''--PDBT
[e-mail]    <http://www.thewho.net>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 07 Jan 2000 22:45:29 -0500

More on this topic...

 - I have even talked with Noel about setting up a mirror here at
 - xmission of spanky in case something fatal happens to it.  Spanky is
 - an old vaxstation if I recall correctly and had a close call recently.

If Tim and Noel are OK with it, I can probably mirror Spanky on a
fractint.org site, as in spanky.fractint.org (hypothetically speaking).
Before committing to that, though, I'd probably want to know what sort of
bandwidth Spanky does. :-)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 07 Jan 2000 22:45:27 -0500

Tim,

 - The other resource we have is that Damien Jones has offerred
 - space on hist server for FTP and a web page. I was intending to
 - register the fractint.org domain and have it point to fractalus. I was
 - reconsidering that when I looked at sourceforge today. Damien
 - does not want to set up CVS.

Um, I thought what I said was that I wasn't currently running a CVS, but
could set one up if you really needed it. (Just checked: yes, I have this
message.) Setting it up securely is my primary concern, but I'm reasonably
certain this can be done. fractint.org is still unregistered, according to
WHOIS, but I urge you not to hesitate. If cost is an issue, I can foot the
$70 to get the name registered.

Server load is not a consideration, really. Storage space is readily
available, available bandwidth will be tripling, and in about two weeks
I'll be doing some server upgrades which should boost performance for
everything on the server. (Not that that's an enormous problem right now,
anyway.)

Of course, I'm not going to be offended if you wish to use the services of
Xmission. That's what they're there for. They have a good reputation and
they generally have enough competent staff to keep things running.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 08 Jan 2000 16:26:43 -0600


> If Tim and Noel are OK with it, I can probably mirror Spanky on a
> fractint.org site, as in spanky.fractint.org (hypothetically speaking).
> Before committing to that, though, I'd probably want to know what sort of
> bandwidth Spanky does. :-)

I am certainly OK with it. Noel is the only person who really needs
to be asked - I'm quite sure he would welcome another mirror.

Tim


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 08 Jan 2000 16:26:43 -0600

Damien wrote:

> Um, I thought what I said was that I wasn't currently running a CVS, but
> could set one up if you really needed it. (Just checked: yes, I have this
> message.) Setting it up securely is my primary concern, but I'm reasonably
> certain this can be done.

You are probably quoting yourself more accurately than I did :-) All
I meant to say was that you were not up and running with CVS, not
that you were unwilling. Thanks for clarifying for the other folks who
did not see our original correspondence. Thinking about it some
more, I don't think there needs to be a big rush to use CVS. I want
to do it, but it is yet another thing that has a learning curve and will
eat research time.

> fractint.org is still unregistered, according to
> WHOIS, but I urge you not to hesitate. If cost is an issue, I can foot the
> $70 to get the name registered.

The $70 is no issue, just whether to have it point to fractalus or
xmission has to be decided before I apply. I'm inclined to make this
decision as soon as possible, but allow for a bit more discussion.
What is involved in changing where a domain name points to after
the fact? I have all the info I need to make it point to fractalus.

> Of course, I'm not going to be offended if you wish to use the services of
> Xmission. That's what they're there for. They have a good reputation and
> they generally have enough competent staff to keep things running.

I believe Rich feels the same way. You guys both have a long term
interest in fractals in general and interest in fractint in particular,
and I appreciate the participation of both of you. I think it is mostly
a "who on the team does what" kind of issue that should be
decided on practical considerations, not the least of which is the
work it would create for you or Rich.

Sourceforge has an unbeatable set of utilities designed for exactly
what we want to do. Assuming sourceforge stays healthy, I am
quite certain we would want to use it. But there are two big reasons
for not using source forge right away (apart from the fact that it is
new):

1. We don't have an open source license. I have been investigating
what it would take to convert fractint to true "open source" (GPL,
DSD, or the artistiuc license) and I think we can do it but it will
take some time and research. I don't think the medium model DOS
fractint will ever be true open source (per www.opensource.org's
criterion) but the proposed new flat-memory-model derivative can
and should be. So the DOS fractint will never be on sourceforge
unless we ask for special dispensation.

2. The nature of open source projects is that they shouldn't be
opened up until the architecture  is figured out and the first
prototype is up and running. Several of us feel more comfotable
rehosting from Compuserve to either xmission or fractalus than we
would going straight to sourceforge. When we have something
working, we could at that point consider migrating.

This being the case, the decision is not sourceforge or not, it is
between using xmission or fractalus to host a developer-oriented
web site, ftp space, and possibly a CVS server (no rush on the
server).

I guess we would need some FTP accounts and email accounts for
the main developers also. Can anyone suggest an exact list of
what we need?

I see no reason to move the mailing lists from xmission even if we
go to fractalus. The main difference between the two situations is
that fractalus is entirely under Damien's control and on his
machine, while xmission is an ISP to which Rich is well
connected. Can any see pros or cons one way or the other? One
consideration for me is which setup would make it easiest for us to
manage users (e.g. add/subtract developers).

Tim

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 08 Jan 2000 18:27:07 -0500

Tim,

 - You are probably quoting yourself more accurately than I did :-)

LOL

I'm something of a packrate when it comes to e-mail. I keep copies of every
message I send and receive, and occasionally it has been vital that I do
so.

 - What is involved in changing where a domain name points to after
 - the fact? I have all the info I need to make it point to fractalus.

Basically, this is fairly trivial, especially if your old host is
cooperative.

(If I hit anything here that is common knowledge, please forgive me.) When
you register a domain name, Network Solutions requires that you provide two
name servers. These provide name-to-IP translation services. When someone
visits www.fractint.org or spanky.fractint.org, the first thing that
happens is their browser obtains the IP address for www.fractint.org or
spanky.fractint.org. This is what the name server provides. The actual IP
address returned can be anywhere; it doesn't have to be the same server,
and it doesn't even have to be the same network. Name servers also provide
information about what server handles mail for a domain.

So, you can register the domain right now, with name service provided by
fractalus. I can then set up a web site in that domain, hosted on my
server. If you later (or sooner) decide you want to be on Xmission, the
first step is them setting up the web site on their servers, and I change
the IP address for www.fractint.org to point to Xmission's server. At that
point, fractalus does name service, but Xmission hosts the web site. Any
time after that, the name service can be moved to Xmission if desired. It's
best not to try to change the IP address of the web site at the same time
you're changing the name service, mainly due to DNS cache issues which I
can explain if you're interested.

Similarly, name service and mail service do not have to be hosted on the
same server. Even if fractalus does the name service, it is easy (with
cooperation from Xmission) to point the mail to an Xmission server,
although fractalus can handle the mail, too.

 - I think it is mostly a "who on the team does what" kind of issue that
 - should be decided on practical considerations, not the least of which
 - is the work it would create for you or Rich.

Well as far as that goes, normally what I do (for the few hosted sites I
deal with) is create a login for the site, where files can be uploaded
without direct intervention from me. One of my long-term projects is to
build up www.fractalus.net so that hosted sites can manage their own e-mail
accounts, but creating POP accounts or forwarding addresses does currently
require my intervention (due to the qmail setup I'm using). I prefer to
automate as much as possible so that the server and sites don't require my
constant attention.

 - Sourceforge has an unbeatable set of utilities designed for exactly
 - what we want to do.

Yep. And backing.

 - 2. The nature of open source projects is that they shouldn't be
 - opened up until the architecture  is figured out and the first
 - prototype is up and running.

As per the Cathedral and the Bazaar... which was nearly persuasive enough
to make an old for-profit curmudgeon like myself embrace open source. :-)

 - I guess we would need some FTP accounts and email accounts for
 - the main developers also. Can anyone suggest an exact list of
 - what we need?

Things I can think of right off the top of my head:

 1 master FTP account
 1 general FTP account for developers to upload code [given only to
     contributors you feel can be trusted]
   e-mail accounts @fractint.org for the active developers--most of
     these can be simple forwarding addresses to the developers'
     real mailboxes elsewhere

Alternately you might want separate FTP accounts for each developer, but
this just makes file permissions a bit of a nuisance under UNIX. The master
account would be able to change the password on the general FTP account
(via shell access) but the general FTP account would not.

 - I see no reason to move the mailing lists from xmission even if we
 - go to fractalus.

I see no reason for that, either. Xmission's been doing a good job.

 - The main difference between the two situations is that fractalus is
 - entirely under Damien's control and on his machine, while xmission is
 - an ISP to which Rich is well connected. Can any see pros or cons one
 - way or the other?

Xmission has far more in the way of resources than I do, but they may not
always be willing to use those resources. I don't know. Xmission seems to
be pretty "with it" for an ISP.

 - One consideration for me is which setup would make it easiest for us to
 - manage users (e.g. add/subtract developers).

Well that depends mostly on how the developers are set up. If you want
separate FTP accounts for each developer, it's a bit trickier, since that
means adding/deleting UNIX system accounts--so you'd need to ask me to do
that. If you just want to be able to manage e-mail addresses, I can
probably toss together some scripts to let you do that. (I already did this
for benihana.com at work, they manage their own e-mail addresses.)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: open source resource
Date: 08 Jan 2000 18:27:10 -0500

Tim,

 - I am certainly OK with it. Noel is the only person who really needs
 - to be asked - I'm quite sure he would welcome another mirror.

(smile) The reason I suggested you needed to be OK with it is if it uses
the host name "spanky.fractint.org". If I set it up as
"spanky.fractalus.com" then yes, I'd only need to talk to Noel. I *try* not
to tread on too many toes, but occasionally my enthusiasm obscures rational
thinking. :-) So I wanted to be clear that using that host name (pending
registration of fractint.org, of course) would be OK. Doing such would
complicate name service slightly if Xmission handled that, but not in any
major way.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Opening ISO image files
Date: 24 Jan 2000 21:45:35 -0600

Is there software (under Win95) that can open an ISO image file? I
don't have a writable CDROM drive, but I have plenty of disk space.
Alternatively, is there any straightforward way to download a whole
Linux distribution without downloading thousands of files?

I'm sure I am missing the obvious :-)

Tim

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From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Opening ISO image files
Date: 24 Jan 2000 23:41:09 -0500

Tim,

 - Alternatively, is there any straightforward way to download a whole
 - Linux distribution without downloading thousands of files?

Use an ftp server that will tar files on the fly. Basically, you change to
the directory containing the i386 folder, then issue a "get i386.tar". If
the server starts the transfer, you're good; it'll download the entire
thing.

Failing that, I can make a .tar.gz of Red Hat 6.1 for you to download.

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Opening ISO image files
Date: 25 Jan 2000 00:02:31 -0500

Tim,

 - Failing that, I can make a .tar.gz of Red Hat 6.1 for you to download.

Or, even better, mail you a CD. Why didn't I think of that first? :-)

Damien M. Jones   \\
[e-mail]  \\  Fractalus Galleries & Info:
                    \\  http://www.fractalus.com/

Please do not post my e-mail address on a web site or
in a newsgroup.  Thank you.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Opening ISO image files
Date: 25 Jan 2000 16:52:35 -0600


>  - Failing that, I can make a .tar.gz of Red Hat 6.1 for you to download.

That's OK, I can always buy a Cheapbytes CD for a couple of
bucks. I'll try your TAR suggestion.

Tim


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From: Tim Wegner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Opening ISO image files
Date: 01 Feb 2000 00:10:13 -0600

I just upgraded my Mandrake Linux to ver 7.0, and had to change
some things to get Xfractint to compile. I had to define
NOBSTRING in the makefile, and define SignalHandler in unix.h.
My xwindows was setup for 32 bits color depth, and xfractint didn't
work well at all under this environment.

I also have Slakware 7, but I haven't installed it yet. I bought
cheapbytes CDs. I actually downloaded the complete mandrake
distribution (painful on a file-by-file basis, even at DSL speeds) but I
didn't dare use it, I waited for the CD :-)

I'll have to go read the message base to remember, I believe Rich
made some changes to make Xfractint work in truecolor modes.

I have registered fractint.org. As soon as Damien gets it set up I'll
begin posting the latest patches. Or if he can't do it soon  I can
post it at spanky.

Tim


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