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exotica-digest        Saturday, March 11 2000        Volume 02 : Number 648



In This Digest:

(exotica) What is Jazz...
(exotica) Anti Jazz
(exotica) A must-see website!
(exotica) improvisation/composition
(exotica) live music propaganda
(exotica) Suns and Prado Recommendations
(exotica) Retro Cocktail Hour
(exotica) Thanks Tiki Bob
Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)
Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)
Re: (exotica) improvisation/composition
Re: (exotica) Re: Pandora's Box (Boston)
Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)
(exotica) Claus Ogerman
(exotica) SXSW
Re: (exotica) Claus Ogerman
Re: (exotica) Claus Ogerman
(exotica) LP Rarity, "Brazilian Mancini"
(exotica) Call for LINKS!
Re: (exotica) live music propaganda
Re: (exotica) LP Rarity, "Brazilian Mancini"
(exotica) Playlist For Space Bop, March 12
Re: (exotica) live music propaganda

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:13:53 -0800
From: "paul thomas" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) What is Jazz...

Didn't be-bop players do their utmost to make their music as inaccessible
as possible?

  I don't if inaccessibility was necessarily what they had in mind as much as getting away from the swing arrangements that were becoming cliche...tho there are lots of stories of veterans of early swing music being completely mystified by the 'stoppin' and a boppin'' as Fats Waller put it.

  Another point on this is that many critics look to be-bop as the turning point for jazz ceasing  to be the popular music of the day. Once it started being 'abstract' and 'difficult' and the music no longer had its basis in the Tin Pan Alley or Broadway tunes that were instantly recognizable.

  Getting back on track here (maybe)...I just got the three cd Jackie Gleason set that Readers Digest produced. If you're a fan of Jackie or just want one package of a lot of his music, this great stuff. It is also available thru Collectors Choice.

  ~~ Paul


MailCity. Secure Email Anywhere, Anytime!
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:34:42 -0800
From: "Stephen W. Worth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) Anti Jazz

>Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:08:27 -0500
>From: "Rajnai, Charles, NNAD" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: (exotica) anti-jazz
>
>> What would you consider to be the complete opposite of jazz?
>
>That would have to be Country & Western.  But I may be saying that only
>because I hate it so much.

...or because you know very little about it. Western Swing is a whole
classification of country music that is pure jazz by anyone's
definition of the word. Perhaps if you listened to it, you might
find that there are types of C&W that you like.

That said, the music that is called C&W today is not C&W at all.
It's the same crummy pop-rock as the whiney boy vocals, the hyper-
ventillating Barbara Streisand wannabes, and the endlessly
meandering pseudo-soul croon-noodling. C&W music died shortly
after the British Invasion.

No... I take that back. It didn't die. It was murdered.

See ya
Steve


      Stephen Worth
      [e-mail]

      The Web: http://www.spumco.com
      Usenet:  alt.animation.spumco
      Palace:  cartoonsforum.com:9994

      Spumco International
      415 E. Harvard St. Ste. 204
      Glendale, CA 91205



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:50:11 -0500
From: "Brian Karasick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) A must-see website!

Here's a website I'd been sent to check out with some nice
Macromedia Flash content.  The visuals are great by themselves...
but the music!!!  Its sites like this that make me think.... If I were
only a few years younger I'd dump this planning business to
become a webpage maker.  Well, at least I have an inspiration to
get me going on my own website.  Enjoy!

http://www.toohot.com


Brian Karasick
Physical Planner
McGill University
Montreal, Canada


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:30:06 -0500
From: "m.ace" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) improvisation/composition

In my humble experience, I can't even draw a line between improvisation and
composition. They're different aspects of the same thing. The deadlines are
tighter with improvisation, but both source from the same place, and both
involve that decisive moment where you commit to a particular note at a
particular point. Both require the same sense of form. Composition often
involves a good bit of improvisation as you try things out. And in this age
of recording technology and computer transcription, the lines can become
even blurrier as you draw the cybernetic possibilities of the technology
into the creative process. Conversely, improvisation calls on compositional
skills whether applied consciously or subconsciously... an improvisation
*is* a composition, dang it. Maybe one time only, and sure, there's no
paper involved, but it happened, it existed, it can be remembered. And if
remembered very well, or captured on tape, it can even become an "official"
dots-on-paper composition.

Circular statement:
A composition is an improvisation that has decided on its form. An
improvisation is a composition decided in the moment.

Rhetorical question:
What's the difference between a improvisation that has passed into the
ether and a composition for which no copies survive?


m.ace  [e-mail]
OOK   http://www.voicenet.com/~ecam/


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:35:02 -0500
From: Nat Kone <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) live music propaganda

At 08:37 AM 3/10/00 -0500, Brian Phillips wrote:
>
>At 10:02 AM 3/10/00 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Jazz also suffers from being recorded.
>
>Quite a lot of music does.  Nothing beats live performance!

I can't believe I'm hearing this old crap on a list like this.  Nothing
beats a live performance eh?  I'm listening to a record I love at this
moment.  One of my favourite records of all time.  The artist was dead by
the time I discovered it but that's almost beside the point.  Right now I
don't want to be transported to a big room with a bunch of people listening
to music.  I want to be right here enjoying my private, personal
relationship with this record.  This is a moment of communication between
me and this artist.
"Nothing beats a live performance" implies that it's some kind of
competition or choice and that one is better than the other.  That's crap!
And it's not crap just because of the fact that most of us will never -
could never - see most of the artists we love.
And it's not crap just because of the fact that some of the records we love
were recorded in a way that could never be duplicated live.
It's crap because the experiences are entirely different.  They're as
different as theatre and movies.  They're as different as architecture and
dancing.
I have a number of records - I'm thinking particularly of Blue Note jazz
records - where the recording process seemed to mimic a "live" jam session.
 And perhaps the records are trying to give you the feeling that you're
hearing them live.
You can either bemoan the fact that the solos they played that day are now
frozen in time, that they're no longer "alive" the way they are in a
performance OR you can celebrate the fact that a lovely moment was frozen
in time and will forever be there for you.
I'm reminded of that other old cliche "Never meet your heroes".  No offense
to any friends of his lurking here but a bunch of my friends thought about
that when they met Lou Reed.
I have an intimate, personal relationship with Lou's records  (no sexual
innuendos please).  It's developed over years and countless replayings.
It's part of my life, though I haven't listened to his records for years.
Meeting him or seeing him live - which I've done - is a completely
different experience with completely different consequences.
Sorry for the rant but I really couldn't believe I was reading that here.

Nat



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:17:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (exotica) Suns and Prado Recommendations

I have been enjoying the 60's sound on The History of Space Age Pop lately.

Can anyone recommend a good CD of both The Three Suns and Perez Prado?

I am really interested in the sound represented on the Pop series.

For example:  The Three Suns song "Delicado" and Prado's "Why Wait" are the
sounds I am looking for.

Is someone wants to boot a copy we can make a trade with something I have.
Those suggestions would be better sent off List.

Mahalo and Aloha,

Tiki Bob


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:47:08 -0600
From: "Darrell Brogdon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) Retro Cocktail Hour

Check out this week's Retro Cocktail Hour webcast for tunes
straight out of the Arabian Nights (sort of), including music from
Les Baxter's "Ports of Pleasure" and George Duning's "1001
Arabian Nights" soundtrack ("Three Little Maids from Damascus" is
a guilty pleasure for yours truly).

Also stuffed into our ditty bag this week are groovy Now sounds
from Hal Hester ("Hunca Munca"), Claus Ogerman (from "Watusi
Trumpets"), Edmundo Ros and Ursula 1000; funky '70s crime jazz
from Chaquito, Al Caiola and Lalo Schifrin; plus Mel Henke, Eden
Ahbez, the Markko Polo Adventurers, Esquivel, Wanderley, Baxter,
Muller and Drasnin.

To hear The Retro Cocktail Hour on the Web, just visit us at the
link below.

Thanks for the space!

Darrell Brogdon
[e-mail]
The Retro Cocktail Hour
KANU FM 91.5
Broadcasting Hall
The University of Kansas
Lawrence, KS 66045
Visit The Retro Cocktail Hour at:
http://kanu.ukans.edu/retro.html
Listen to The Retro Cocktail Hour at:
http://kanu.ukans.edu/retro/retrolisten.htm


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:47:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (exotica) Thanks Tiki Bob

I have to take this opportunity to personally thank a thousand times the one,
the only, Tiki Bob!  for providing my home with a Martin Denny autographed
copy of "Quiet Village" to hang--framed of course--over my Aku Aku (R.I.P.)
Tiki.  And special thanks to Thinkmatic for the speedy delivery of the LP
which I understand had to be sent back to Martin after Bob's visit for his
signature....Hopefully someday Tiki Bob's story of his meeting with Martin
Denny in Hawaii will grace the pages of one of our fave 'zines.....Bravo Tiki
Bob....JB


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:28:20 -0500
From: Brian Phillips <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)

> >Quite a lot of music does.  Nothing beats live performance!
>
>I can't believe I'm hearing this old crap on a list like this.  Nothing
>beats a live performance eh?

Whoa, back up the train!

I said quite a lot of music does.  There are some records that cannot be
duplicated live, such as tape music (Pierre Henry, heck, there is nothing
"live" about it, but it was quite fascinating to me), some of it even Jazz,
such as Black Saint and the Sinner Lady by Charles Mingus which can be
duplicated live, but was multitracked and even the West Coast Pop Art
Experimental Band's "A Child's Garden of Good and Evil", with the wonderful
Love-evoL back and forth tape manipulation at the end.

1. I wrote "quite a lot of music does", not all.  Jazz doesn't always
suffer from being recorded.
2. The previous sentence (which I didn't write) referred to Jazz and for
that, since I am a musician, of sorts, if the person is alive and the
setting is good, I can see things, such as fingerings, showmanship, etc.
3. Yes, going somewhere to see someone can be truly dreadful.  Too far
away, some lout enjoying him/herself too much, etc.
4. I am (as I gather you are) rather picky about how records sound.  I
could go on and on about how I like drums recorded, how the bass sounds on
the Moonglows' "Ten Commandments of Love", etc.

The last thing I wish to do is offend anyone on the list, in particular a
fellow such as Mr. Kone, who always posts interesting things and he most
certainly has his own opinion.  I had no idea that one sentence that I
thought was fairly innocuous would get a such a severe and public
drubbing.  So, I suppose the moral of the story, is when one has worked
rather steadily (to-morrow will be the first day in this month that I will
not have gone to work), one shouldn't post what one feels is fairly innocent.

All that to say this:  I truly enjoy records.  I have a lot of them and
considering I won't see many of the people whose music that I respect and
admire.  I am very content to listen to them and I will concede they are
two different experiences.  Regardless of what you thought of my post, we
are actually on the same side on this one.

Allow me to qualify and please do kindly forgive if I offend those of us
who cannot get around as well as others:

When:

I see someone I enjoy,
The acoustics are right,
The people are agreeable,
I am in a good mood,

Nothing, for me, Brian Phillips, one man, beats a live performance.

However,

If the person is dead,
Or has performed good music I cannot get to, whether that be logistically
or racially,
If the engineer is someone like a Rudy Van Gelder or Creed Taylor,

I enjoy my records as well, some to the point of wearing them out.  I won't
get into a "who loves their records the most" contest, because I would
probably lose and in the end, it really makes no difference.  We all
do.  There is the wish, fleeting and sweet that I could see (maybe meet,
but that, agreed, can be a letdown, too, but I, have actually yet to have
had that experience) the people whose music has meant much to me.  Before I
get too Hallmark card-sy here, music has buoyed me over some rough times
(and I am quite certain that there people who have suffered far more than
myself and there are people to whom music means more) and for that, I am
forever grateful.

I don't wish to further burden everyone here with this, but I think that
the least stimulating argument is where two or more parties essentially agree.

Let's all be nice to each other on the 'Net,
Brian Phillips





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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:00:43 -0800
From: "claudia" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)

> > >Quite a lot of music does.  Nothing beats live performance!
> >
> >I can't believe I'm hearing this old crap on a list like this.  Nothing
> >beats a live performance eh?

I thought my fellow Portland Trailblazer and the hated Laker fans got
ridiculous..but this takes the cake.

I couldn't agree more that A LIVE PERFORMANCE can't be beat..
that is not to say that I don't love/treasure/hoard/covet others
collections/etc...

It is a statement !!!
Folks..did you ever see Frank Sinatra live?????
Well let me tell you...I have hundreds of his music collection and it
doesn't hold a candle to SEEING HIM LIVE.

And yes..I have tons of cds/records/tapes that I treasure of performers
that are dead.And I LOVE THEM!!!

Why oh why would you call a statement like Brian's CRAP?????
God that galls me.

I happen to like the JELLYFISH..ok you don't..does that make it crap????


My word !..learn to respect other opinions.

It tickled me to hear of a fellow music lovers opinion he loved live
music.I started right away thinking of all the live performances that I
have seen.

Paul Simon's concert with me in the 7th row is far more thrilling than his
cd.!!!

Seeing Simon and Garfunkle in Berlin in 1982 at the famous Berlin Olympic
stadium was a thrill I will never get over.Don't quite duplicate that with
my albums and cd's.

Sinatra live..well there was the thrill of my entire life..

You get the picture????


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------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 2000 18:26:20 -0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (exotica) improvisation/composition

At 04:30 PM 10-03-00 -0500, m.ace wrote:
>In my humble experience, I can't even draw a line between improvisation and
>composition. They're different aspects of the same thing.

I like some jazz records which list as the arranger "A. Head."

In other words, they are saying the performances are "head arrangements."

A. Head is due about as much in royalties as Alan Smithee is due a share of
the movies he directed.

Byron

Byron Caloz
Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
http://www.hubris.net/zolac
The Mr. Smooth site: http://www.hubris.net/zolac/smooth


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------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 2000 18:48:59 -0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: Pandora's Box (Boston)

At 10:33 AM 10-03-00 -0500, DjVinny wrote:
>GoGo performances by Suzie Solitaire & Carrie Nation

does Carrie do it weilding an axe?  I guess this means they don't
serve alcohol at Pan's Box.

:)
Byron

Byron Caloz
Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
http://www.hubris.net/zolac
The Mr. Smooth site: http://www.hubris.net/zolac/smooth


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:47:29 -0500
From: Nat Kone <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) live music propaganda (long and maudlin)

At 06:00 PM 3/10/00 -0800, claudia wrote:
>
>I couldn't agree more that A LIVE PERFORMANCE can't be beat..
>that is not to say that I don't love/treasure/hoard/covet others
>collections/etc...
>
>It is a statement !!!
>Folks..did you ever see Frank Sinatra live?????
>Well let me tell you...I have hundreds of his music collection and it
>doesn't hold a candle to SEEING HIM LIVE.

Well I just finished apologizing to Brian.  I can see how he took my use of
the word "crap" personally.
And yet here I am, only moments later, trying to think of a softer way of
saying "crap" so I can respond to claudia without her taking it personally.

Sinatra live was better than any Sinatra record.  What does that mean?
Does it mean that it's better to see him live than to play any of his
records ONCE?  Maybe that's true.  The two things are so incomparable, I
can't comment on which one holds the candle and which one takes the cake.
If there's an artist you cherish and you get a chance to see him/her/them
perform live once of twice, that experience will probably add something to
your appreciation of the music and/or their records.
Live performances and records CAN have a relationship with each otherl.
But comparing them or saying that one is better or saying that one is MUCH
better is uh... hooey.
I was listening to a Coltrane record when I wrote my original crappy post.
I can't deny that I have often wished I'd been able to see him live.  Of
course, even if I had, I'd have only been about 14 at most, so doubtless I
wouldn't have experienced anything like my fantasy.  But leaving that
aside, it certainly could have been great.
(Then again, I could have caught him on an off night.)
But I have had hundreds of sublime, beautiful moments with that record.  I
know this isn't a bulletin to anyone here but you can play a record
whenever you want to.  Of course you take that for granted but it's an
amazing thing.
There's nothing about a live performance that can compare to you and the
record alone "together" in your home.  Or your car.  On a road trip.
Driving through some unfamiliar landscape at two in the morning.
Whatever.  I'm being a bit rhapsodic here.  But I think that when people
compare records unfavourably to the "live music experience", to some degree
they're saying that the live experience is more real.  It's more direct.
It's more personal.  As if there's something misanthropic or "loner-like"
to just want to be at home listening to an "object".
And I don't agree with that.  If I did, I'd have to think the same way
about books or letters or any number of other objects which contain, for
me, a "personal" communication between myself and the "author".

I go into the world. I live among the people.  I occasionally experience
live performances of various kinds.  But if I had a choice between my
Coltrane records and the opportunity to have seen him live even ten times,
I'd choose the records.

Nat



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:33:29 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Mimi Mayer)
Subject: (exotica) Claus Ogerman

So Jimmy Mack and I were talking about ol' Claus this evening while I was
spinning Jobim's "Wave" as a warmup exercise for a careful listen to
"Exotica" 1. Jim asked, "So he's German, right?" Anyone have the skinny on
this producer/arranger?  TIA, Mimoski




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:10:26 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Mimi Mayer)
Subject: (exotica) SXSW

If anyone is showing up, for work or pleasure, for the SXSW Multimedia or
=46ilm or Music  Festivals, please drop me a line offlist. It would be my
pleasure to drag you out for a spin at Broken Spoke, a genuine Texas
dancehall, or to the Hill Country for real Texas BBQ. And if you're a
veggie or don't eat beef, well, we'll improvise. Mimi




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 00 21:04:14 -0800
From: "B.J. Major" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Claus Ogerman

>So Jimmy Mack and I were talking about ol' Claus this evening while I was
>spinning Jobim's "Wave" as a warmup exercise for a careful listen to
>"Exotica" 1. Jim asked, "So he's German, right?" Anyone have the skinny on
>this producer/arranger?  TIA, Mimoski

He's German, but he's done a lot of work with Brazilians, most =
noteably Jobim & Jo=E3o Gilberto.  He's arranged and conducted quite =
a few of Jobim's albums, even the 1st dual one with Jobim & Sinatra =
in the U.S.  Other Jobim LPs Claus has arranged and conducted include =
"Urubu", "The Composer of Desafinado Plays", "Wave", "Terra =
Brasilis", & "A Certain Mr. Jobim".

Jo=E3o Gilberto used him on his "Amoroso" LP.

Despite him working for Brazilian performers & composers like the =
above, many people who are die-hard fans of Brazilian music detest =
Ogerman's arragements, claiming them to be "too lush" and "heavy" on =
the strings.  Funny, we just had a discussion about Mr. Ogerman on =
the Saudades do Brazil music list not that long ago, and I was one of =
the few people who claimed to like Claus' arrangements A LOT.  To me, =
there is simply nothing like an Ogerman instrumental treatment of one =
of Jobim's songs.  I think it basically boiled down to me and one =
other person on the list who loved his arrangements.  Everyone else =
on the list couldn't stand him.  It seems that you either really like =
Claus or really don't, no middle ground.

Regards,
- --bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 00 21:03:48 -0800
From: "B.J. Major" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Claus Ogerman

>So Jimmy Mack and I were talking about ol' Claus this evening while I was
>spinning Jobim's "Wave" as a warmup exercise for a careful listen to
>"Exotica" 1. Jim asked, "So he's German, right?" Anyone have the skinny on
>this producer/arranger?  TIA, Mimoski

He's German, but he's done a lot of work with Brazilians, most =
noteably Jobim & Jo=E3o Gilberto.  He's arranged and conducted quite =
a few of Jobim's albums, even the 1st dual one with Jobim & Sinatra =
in the U.S.  Other Jobim LPs Claus has arranged and conducted include =
"Urubu", "The Composer of Desafinado Plays", "Wave", "Terra =
Brasilis", & "A Certain Mr. Jobim".

Jo=E3o Gilberto used him on his "Amoroso" LP.

Despite him working for Brazilian performers & composers like the =
above, many people who are die-hard fans of Brazilian music detest =
Ogerman's arragements, claiming them to be "too lush" and "heavy" on =
the strings.  Funny, we just had a discussion about Mr. Ogerman on =
the Saudades do Brazil music list not that long ago, and I was one of =
the few people who claimed to like Claus' arrangements A LOT.  To me, =
there is simply nothing like an Ogerman instrumental treatment of one =
of Jobim's songs.  I think it basically boiled down to me and one =
other person on the list who loved his arrangements.  Everyone else =
on the list couldn't stand him.  It seems that you either really like =
Claus or really don't, no middle ground.

Regards,
- --bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 00 22:49:35 -0800
From: "B.J. Major" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) LP Rarity, "Brazilian Mancini"

Any of you who like both Jobim and Mancini, keep your eye out for =
this LP in your travels:

Jack Wilson and Tony Brazil, "Jack Wilson Plays Brazilian Mancini", =
Vault #1001, (1965).

This LP contains Days of Wine and Roses, Mr. Lucky, Sally's Tomato =
and six other Mancini compositions, all played in a bossa nova =
style/rhythm and featuring a particular uncredited guitarist on the =
LP--none other than Antonio Carlos Jobim himself, playing under the =
pseudonym of 'Tony Brazil'.

This record is extremely rare and is heavily sought after by =
collectors of Jobim LPs, especially in Brazil, where it was not =
released.  A find of it in the U.S. recently was cause for both a =
celebration and an article to be written on the entire event on =
3/4/00 in Brazil's "O Estado de S=E3o Paulo" newspaper.  There is an =
online (Portugese) version of the complete article at

http://www1.estado.com.br/edicao/pano/00/03/03/ca2530.html

Regards,
- --bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html


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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:16:21 +1100
From: "Keith E. Lo Bue" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) Call for LINKS!

Hey folks--would any of you who have exotica or related websites like to
join me on the Ferrante & Teicher site as a link?

If so, please email me with the address so I can check it out and put you
up!  I'll be unveiling the site within a month or so, possibly sooner.
Coming along well so far.  Sheesh, figures I'd be working on a site
focussing on a duo who released 148 ORIGINAL records (not including
re-issues, etc.)!!!!  It's great fun, in all seriousness.  I hope I can do
them justice!

Keith

****************************
http://www.lobue-art.com
A virtual gallery and info
site for the artwork and
workshops of KEITH E. LO BUE
****************************



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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:21:10 +0100
From: Moritz R <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) live music propaganda

I'm really surprised how unprecise this discussion is. As Mike Ace has
suggested in his improvisation/composition statement, to draw the lines
between such apparentely contradictory  categories is not that easy.
It's even less obvious in the live vs. recorded thread. So what IS the
difference between 'live' and 'recorded'?

If you record a live concert the difference between the two soundtracks,
the live live and the recorded live, is obviously minimal. The main
difference is, that when you hear the music live, you hear it in certain
circumstances like admidst a thousand or a couple of people, in a
special place, you have dressed up maybe, are together with friends, you
have paid an entrance fee, you have expectations and... you SEE the
artist/s performing. So all of this might add up to the fact that you
are really impressed. Or maybe not, because you think that this favorite
band of yours played your favorite song in a way you didn't like.
Anyway, if you listen to the concert later on tape or on record, you
might be disappointed, because you're sitting in your same old
living-room and have no live athmosphere whatsoever around you, no
screaming fans that turn you on to screaming yourself and so on. But you
are listening to the same soundtrack, not by note exactely the same
thing. So if there is a difference between a concert and the recording
of the very same concert, then it can't possibly be the music that is
different, it must be something else. I leave it to you, dear reader, to
draw your own conclusions.

Another example: I'm on vacation, sitting in a romantic bar in Santa
Lucia, Cran Canaria, exotic athmosphere, a good meal behind me, my girl,
friends next to me, substancially drunk, but happy, happy, happy. The
music played from cheap speakers in the background adds to my
enlightment and for the moment I think, this is the best music I ever
heard. I might even try to buy a tape of it occasionally and take it
home. Listening to it weeks later at home in my same old living-room
might bring back memories of an exciting experience, but most likely I
will recognize that the music, I loved so mucho then, is just another
average chaka-ding-dong-something-fiesta-Canaria-holyday tape. So
listening to it under the southern sun was in fact a live experience,
without even a band performing live, but the circumstances were live. So
what is live? Again I leave it to you to draw conclusions.

The only really substantial difference I can detect in this thread would
be the difference between music that is played simultaneously by hand,
wether recorded or disappearing into the ether forever, and programmed
music whith the parts of it put together piece by piece and only when
everything is finished you hear the final result, the actual music.
Bands who play gigs with preproduced programmed music give me a
substancially different feeling or experience than music that is
actually played live. I don't say that I always prefer the hand-played
music, but I can sense a difference. Additionally you could ask the
question, wether there is a difference between  a studio recording of a
band and a recording in front of an audience. As we all seem to know,
there is a difference. Bands seem to be turned on by a good audience and
this seems to have an influence on their music. You have to be in the
audience during that performance though to be able to enjoy that effect.
I'm not sure though, if I prefer an excited life performance better than
a "cool" precise studio recording. It's just two different things. I
only know that I prefer listening to a "studio" record to a "live"
recording. "Live" only works live.

The Sinatra (and others) case: If Frank Sinatra is live really so much
better than on record (and I have seen him live and it WAS great and I
DON'T care for his records very much), than this effect owes 1. to what
I have said in the first paragraph of this post, the live circumstances,
and 2. that you may be a woman, and 3. that Frank Sinatra above all was
an entertainer, meaning the way he celebrated his person on stage was an
amusement factor of its own, he could as well have played a different
kind of music and it would still have been a great gig. And 4. wether
you admit it or not: you are fascinated because he's a V.I.P, a legend,
a really famous person.
Short version: If you would have asked me 10 years ago wether I would
have liked to have a dinner with Frank Sinatra or see his gig, I'd
definitely have chosen the dinner.

My personal opinion on this whole subject is, try to beat me for it if
you can, I like records better than live performances, hee hee. I could
make it simple and count the gigs that I really liked and the records
that I really liked, but that would be a bit unfair, as I have bought
much more records than I have visited concerts. (Still that's an
indication for the fact that I like records better) But I just think
that in most cases studio records are better produced than live gigs (I
actually really hate "live recordings"), records give you the best that
an artist has to offer (no wonder; if you'd choose out of 50 live
recordings during a tour one for beeing published on record, or out of
20 takes the band is performing in the studio, you would most likely
choose the "best" one), they are available at any time, whenever I feel
like listening to them, they use advanced studio technology, that
enhances the best sound possible and, in cases of "big concerts", I
don't have to cram with thousands of people, that don't give me a chance
to see the band anyway, in one room and deliver my health to a sound
engineer, who doesn't care if I want to use my ears the next day and the
rest of my live.

'Live' is when your life is alive!

Mo





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------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 2000 07:39:44 -0800
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (exotica) LP Rarity, "Brazilian Mancini"

At 10:49 PM 10-03-00 -0800, bj wrote:
>Jack Wilson and Tony Brazil, "Jack Wilson Plays Brazilian Mancini", Vault
#1001, (1965).
>This record is extremely rare and is heavily sought after by collectors of
Jobim LPs, especially in Brazil, where it was not released.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.  It has been hiding in my records
since I bought it from a county library sale (they were getting rid of all
their LPs).  It looks interesting, but I had no idea it would be so
important elsewhere!  I must listen to it.

I am lucky it was not well listened to (only checked out twice), however
the library took special care of it by plastering it with all manor of
stickers and tape. Mmmf.

So, watch your local library or "Friends of the Library" sales...maybe
it'll turn up for you, too!

Byron

Byron Caloz
Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
http://www.hubris.net/zolac
The Mr. Smooth site: http://www.hubris.net/zolac/smooth


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:39:33 -0500
From: cheryl <[e-mail]>
Subject: (exotica) Playlist For Space Bop, March 12

Beyond kitsch, Space Bop is one hour of full galactical wonder, and can
be heard every Sunday from 4 to 5 pm Eastern time on CKUT 90.3 FM in
Montreal, Canada, and on RealAudio (real time only, for now) at:

http://www.ckut.ca

As usual, all comments, questions, and feedback welcome.

Space Bop #86   Girls At Our Best!

To celebrate International Women's Day, this week at CKUT is "Feminist
Frequencies", featuring programs on and about women.  So Space Bop will
be focusing on women in music on this week's show - some old favourites,
some new favourites, and a delightful "period piece" by Boyd Rice.

Boyd Rice:  Period Piece  "Hate People Like Us"
Chicks On Speed:  Mind Your Own Business  "Pop Tics"
Girls At Our Best:  Go For Gold  "Go For Gold"
Stereo Total:  Dactylo Rock  "Oh Ah"

Combustible Edison:  Lonelyville  "Schizophonic"
Astroslut:  Sophisticated Mr. Sleaze  "Love At Zero G"
X-Ray Spex:  Germfree Adolescents  "Germfree Adolescents"
Portishead:  Sour Times  "Roseland NYC Live"

Pizzicato Five:  Mon Amour Tokyo  "Happy End Of The World"
Takako Minekawa & DJ Me DJ You:  Fantastic Voyage  "Fun9"
Laila France & Maxwell Implosion:  Superstar  "Pool Position"

Pop Tarts:  Girlie Pop  "Pop Tics"
Au Pairs:  Diet  "Live In Berlin"
Lydia Lunch:  Spooky  "Queen Of Siam"
Mrs. Miller:  A Groovy Kind Of Love  "Wild Cool & Swingin'"


Thanks for reading.


[e-mail]
[e-mail]


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 00 09:42:07 -0800
From: "B.J. Major" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (exotica) live music propaganda

>The Sinatra (and others) case: If Frank Sinatra is live really so much
>better than on record (and I have seen him live and it WAS great and I
>DON'T care for his records very much), than this effect owes 1. to what
>I have said in the first paragraph of this post, the live circumstances,
>and 2. that you may be a woman, and 3. that Frank Sinatra above all was
>an entertainer, meaning the way he celebrated his person on stage was an
>amusement factor of its own, he could as well have played a different
>kind of music and it would still have been a great gig. And 4. wether
>you admit it or not: you are fascinated because he's a V.I.P, a legend,
>a really famous person.
>Short version: If you would have asked me 10 years ago wether I would
>have liked to have a dinner with Frank Sinatra or see his gig, I'd
>definitely have chosen the dinner.

Seeing people "live" in concert often disappoints; they don't always sing
or play the songs that are your favorites, they are not always in "best
form" themselves, they may be too far away from you, and generally--they
have a hard time achieving that plateau we've elevated them to because
making a record in a recording studio to near perfection standards can't
be duplicated when the atmosphere isn't controlled as in a live
performance (where anything can and often DOES happen).  Even though I've
seen Marian McPartland (who will be 80 this month!), Perry Como, Sammy
Davis, Steve Allen, and Henry Mancini in concert--looking back on those
times, I'd prefer none of those experiences (as thrilling as they were at
the moment) again over having one of their CDs that I don't currently
own.

This *isn't* to say that anyone who has a chance to see one of their
heroes in concert should not do so--but when you attend these events, try
not to let your levels of expectation rule the experience or else you
will come away disappointed, guaranteed.  Better to expect little and not
be disappointed than to expect much and come away feeling unsatisfied.
In 1992, I sat within five feet of Steve Allen playing the piano in a
small jazz club in Seattle, and when he didn't pick my "request" card out
of all those that he collected from the audience, I was very disappointed
(of course I shouldn't have been, but I was nonetheless).

Regards,
- --bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html



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------------------------------

End of exotica-digest V2 #648
*****************************