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Internet Message Format | 1999-08-16 | 14KB

From: "Robert J. Richardson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (cww) Air speed
Date: 11 Aug 1999 15:25:28 -0400

Need help from a flight sim user who has either a general or commerical
pilot's license. How does one calculate true airspeed? I understand the
lapse rate is .035 degrees per 1,000 feet of altitude using 59 degrees as
the sea level temperature. So, if an aircraft in Warbirds (or any other
flight sim for that matter) has an indicated air speed of 200 mph at 20,000
feet and assuming the outside temperature is
-10 below zero, what would be the true airspeed (or ground speed) given the
59 degree temerature at sea level? Another question: to achieve a
coordinated turn, does one neutralize the rudder after the ball is
centered, or is the rudder held constant during the turn. I know that if
one doesn't apply rudder the aircraft rolls and a sloppy turn is the
result. And by using rudder only, with out applying the stick, a flat turn
is the result.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andrew Carr <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
Date: 13 Aug 1999 01:12:26 +1000

Not sure about the TAS calculation, but regarding the rudder...

It probably depends what kind of aircraft you're flying, but - all other
things being equal - one holds the rudder constant during the turn.
Neutralising the rudder (ie. taking your foot off the pedal) would
result in the aircraft slipping back into uncoordinated flight.
Naturally, adjustments may need to be made during the turn depending on
things like angle of bank, wind, etc.


Andrew


"Robert J. Richardson" wrote:
>
> Need help from a flight sim user who has either a general or commerical
> pilot's license. How does one calculate true airspeed? I understand the
> lapse rate is .035 degrees per 1,000 feet of altitude using 59 degrees as
> the sea level temperature. So, if an aircraft in Warbirds (or any other
> flight sim for that matter) has an indicated air speed of 200 mph at 20,000
> feet and assuming the outside temperature is
> -10 below zero, what would be the true airspeed (or ground speed) given the
> 59 degree temerature at sea level? Another question: to achieve a
> coordinated turn, does one neutralize the rudder after the ball is
> centered, or is the rudder held constant during the turn. I know that if
> one doesn't apply rudder the aircraft rolls and a sloppy turn is the
> result. And by using rudder only, with out applying the stick, a flat turn
> is the result.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: spinal/bkdr <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
Date: 12 Aug 1999 14:49:08 -0500

Rudder only type of turn will not exactly be flat. Your wingtips will drop.

"Robert J. Richardson" wrote:

> Need help from a flight sim user who has either a general or commerical
> pilot's license. How does one calculate true airspeed? I understand the
> lapse rate is .035 degrees per 1,000 feet of altitude using 59 degrees as
> the sea level temperature. So, if an aircraft in Warbirds (or any other
> flight sim for that matter) has an indicated air speed of 200 mph at 20,000
> feet and assuming the outside temperature is
> -10 below zero, what would be the true airspeed (or ground speed) given the
> 59 degree temerature at sea level? Another question: to achieve a
> coordinated turn, does one neutralize the rudder after the ball is
> centered, or is the rudder held constant during the turn. I know that if
> one doesn't apply rudder the aircraft rolls and a sloppy turn is the
> result. And by using rudder only, with out applying the stick, a flat turn
> is the result.
>
> -
>  To unsubscribe to cww, send an email to "[e-mail]"
>  with "unsubscribe cww" in the body of the message.
>  For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
>  "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.
>  The list archive is at ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/cww/archive


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kane O'Donnell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
Date: 12 Aug 1999 16:53:11 +1000

I cannot help you with the airspeed problem however the rudder part I can
answer.

1) The simple answer is that you centralize all controls after banking
before you begin the turn.

2) The complex answer is thus: When you bank an aircraft, the outside
aileron (which goes down) creates lift, which of course raises that wing.
With lift comes drag and therefore the outside wing actually slows down
which drags the nose of the aircraft in the opposite direction of the turn.
This is called adverse yaw or aileron drag. To counter this we use
sufficient rudder to keep the nose from yawing during the banking phase of
the turn.
When we have banked to the required angle, we stop using the ailerons.
Without the outside aileron being down, there is no aileron drag and thus no
need for rudder to be applied. The correct procedure for turning then is as
follows:

a) LOOK OUT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE TURN!! (Not so important for flight sims
but life for glider pilots and a necessary evil for power pilots)

b) Centre your view. Using co-ordinated stick and rudder, bank in the
desired direction. Always use the horizon as a reference point when turning.

c) When you have reached the desired bank angle, centralize stick AND
rudder.

d) Counter the tendency of the nose to drop by using a little back pressure.

AWAY WE TURN!

By the way, a general or commercial pilots license does not always mean the
person holding it knows what they are talking about. For general flying
info, glider pilots are a very good source of information because they
cannot afford to make mistakes like sloppy turns (we don't have engines!)



Written by Kane O'Donnell, "C" Badge glider pilot.



----------
>From: "Robert J. Richardson" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: (cww) Air speed
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 5:25 AM
>

> Need help from a flight sim user who has either a general or commerical
> pilot's license. How does one calculate true airspeed? I understand the
> lapse rate is .035 degrees per 1,000 feet of altitude using 59 degrees as
> the sea level temperature. So, if an aircraft in Warbirds (or any other
> flight sim for that matter) has an indicated air speed of 200 mph at 20,000
> feet and assuming the outside temperature is
> -10 below zero, what would be the true airspeed (or ground speed) given the
> 59 degree temerature at sea level? Another question: to achieve a
> coordinated turn, does one neutralize the rudder after the ball is
> centered, or is the rudder held constant during the turn. I know that if
> one doesn't apply rudder the aircraft rolls and a sloppy turn is the
> result. And by using rudder only, with out applying the stick, a flat turn
> is the result.
>
>
>
> -
>  To unsubscribe to cww, send an email to "[e-mail]"
>  with "unsubscribe cww" in the body of the message.
>  For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
>  "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.
>  The list archive is at ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/cww/archive
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kane O'Donnell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
Date: 13 Aug 1999 18:33:13 +1000

No. Sorry, this is wrong. The only part of the turn you actually need the
rudder for (and this applies to everything with wings) is the actual bank,
as it counters aileron drag (adverse yaw). During the actual turn the
ailerons are neutral and therefore no adverse yaw is present and no rudder
is required - trust me!

Kane O'Donnell
"C" Badge (Qualified) glider pilot.

----------
>From: Andrew Carr <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 1:12 AM
>

> Not sure about the TAS calculation, but regarding the rudder...
>
> It probably depends what kind of aircraft you're flying, but - all other
> things being equal - one holds the rudder constant during the turn.
> Neutralising the rudder (ie. taking your foot off the pedal) would
> result in the aircraft slipping back into uncoordinated flight.
> Naturally, adjustments may need to be made during the turn depending on
> things like angle of bank, wind, etc.
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
> "Robert J. Richardson" wrote:
>>
>> Need help from a flight sim user who has either a general or commerical
>> pilot's license. How does one calculate true airspeed? I understand the
>> lapse rate is .035 degrees per 1,000 feet of altitude using 59 degrees as
>> the sea level temperature. So, if an aircraft in Warbirds (or any other
>> flight sim for that matter) has an indicated air speed of 200 mph at 20,000
>> feet and assuming the outside temperature is
>> -10 below zero, what would be the true airspeed (or ground speed) given the
>> 59 degree temerature at sea level? Another question: to achieve a
>> coordinated turn, does one neutralize the rudder after the ball is
>> centered, or is the rudder held constant during the turn. I know that if
>> one doesn't apply rudder the aircraft rolls and a sloppy turn is the
>> result. And by using rudder only, with out applying the stick, a flat turn
>> is the result.
>
> -
>  To unsubscribe to cww, send an email to "[e-mail]"
>  with "unsubscribe cww" in the body of the message.
>  For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
>  "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.
>  The list archive is at ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/cww/archive
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andrew Carr <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (cww) Air speed
Date: 17 Aug 1999 19:21:50 +1000

Kane O'Donnell wrote, inter alia:
> By the way, a general or commercial pilots license does not always mean=
 the
> person holding it knows what they are talking about. For general flying
> info, glider pilots are a very good source of information because they
> cannot afford to make mistakes like sloppy turns (we don't have engines=
!)
>=20
> Written by Kane O'Donnell, "C" Badge glider pilot.


Notwithstanding Mr O'Donnell's swipe at powered pilots (Macs vs. PCs, any=
one?),
I agree with him in theory. There should be no need for continued rudder
pressure once the desired bank angle has been achieved. What's more, the
theory should apply to all things with wings. In practice, however,
things are not quite so textbook.

Disclaimer: I don't claim to possess some sort of intellectual
superiority based on
who I am or what I fly. I can only go on what I've experienced in basic
light aircraft. Flying is a dynamic activity, and there are many
variables which may affect the application of pure theory to actual
flight. For instance, throttle effects mean you need more rudder turning
right than left in a single engine aircraft. Adding or reducing power in
a turn will also have an impact on the amount of rudder required. Even
gusty winds and turbulence seem to have an effect, however small, on
aircraft coordination in a turn.

The other thing to note is - contrary to theory - it depends on the
aircraft you're flying. Even two identical aircraft produced in the same
year can have slightly different flight characteristics. Depending on
the rigging of the aircraft, you may or may not need constant rudder
throughout the turn. Indeed, most basic light aircraft need little or no
rudder for the majority of standard man=9Cuvres.

The bottom line is this: regardless of what the theory states, watch the
coordination ball throughout the turn and use appropriate rudder to keep
it centred. Sometimes you'll find you need very little rudder, other
times you'll need it all the way through the turn.


Andrew

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