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From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest)
To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: buffy-digest V2 #320
Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com
Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
buffy-digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 320
In this issue:
BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BUFFY: Sarah Mc song
Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BUFFY: Angel lust
Re: Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
re: BUFFY: Angel lust
BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BUFFY: Giles
BUFFY: lying
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BUFFY: Xander debate
Re: BUFFY: Giles
Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander
Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
Re: BUFFY: Giles
Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
BUFFY: Admin: Listowner in pain! Film at 11!
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy
or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:01:33 EDT
From: fun-ee@juno.com (fu nee)
Subject: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
I think Xander's lie to Buffy is right or wrong depending on whether or
not you believe the 'end justifies the means.' If you believe that lying
to achieve a goal that you think is worthy and correct is ok, I suppose
you'd go along with what Xander did. If you believe that lying is wrong
in any case, then I guess you'd feel Xander did wrong.
Me personally? I think Xander betrayed Willow and Buffy and acted in a
selfish way. I don't think he is as much concerned about the evil Angel
as he is about Angel the rival for Buffy's love. Angel sensed Xander's
jealousy and knew exactly what he was doing when he taunted Xander about
having 'been there first' (I forget the episode) referring to the fact
that he was the first one to make love to Buffy.
If you're a guy, you probably feel this and know what I'm talking about
alot better than a girl and maybe can understand that Xander acted out of
pure animal instinct, wanting Angel destroyed at any cost to clear the
field of such a powerful romantic rival like Angel.
funee
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:07:09 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
<If you're a guy, you probably feel this and know what I'm talking about
alot better than a girl and maybe can understand that Xander acted out of
pure animal instinct, wanting Angel destroyed at any cost to clear the
field of such a powerful romantic rival like Angel.>
Sorry. I am a guy and I believe that Xander wanted Angel dead for all the
damage he did, not just because he stands in the way of his love for Buffy.
Personally, I think the female fans of this show are reacting so harshly
towards Xander because they are all drooling for DB, even if they refuse to
admit it.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:12:09 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 6/2/98 8:55:02 PM, you wrote:
<< I see it as bad, but not on the level of a doublecross and I don't think
we will ever agree on that so there is no point in discussing it any further,
really.>>
I don't think so either. Though I will concede you have made some good points
I have no idea where you are coming from. All of the defenses of Xander's
behavior boil down to nothing more than excuses for a terrible deed. At least
Angel had the excuse of not having his soul (oh boy I hope I didn't just open
that old can of worms again). Xander may have had good reasons for what he did
(in his own mind if nothing else) but the fact remains that what he did was
wrong. Maybe the outcome would have remained the same if she had known about
the curse but at the very least he could have saved her from the shock moments
before she was going to slice his head off ( of course he was probably hoping
she'd kill him before she ever found out). It wasn't fair to Buffy or Willow,
even if I didn't have "issues" with Xander I would feel the same way.
See? I just can't let it go. I'm awful. WAAAAAYYYYY too obsessed with this
show.
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:13:31 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
<See? I just can't let it go. I'm awful. WAAAAAYYYYY too obsessed with this
show.>
You and me both, sister.
I see Xander's lie as a foolish mistake, you see it as heresy.
To quote Homer S., a noted American philosopher, "eh, what are you gonna
do?"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:18:51 PDT
From: "Kevin Taylor" <nivekmcclellan@hotmail.com>
Subject: BUFFY: Sarah Mc song
What was the name of the Sarah Mc song at the end of Becoming 2? I know
it's been posted before, but my dad just asked me today, and I can't
remember the name of the song.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:37:31 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 6/2/98 9:11:47 PM, you wrote:
<<Personally, I think the female fans of this show are reacting so harshly
towards Xander because they are all drooling for DB, even if they refuse to
admit it.>>
You see now you're insulting my intelligence again. Just because a pretty boy
walks in doesn't mean I can't think rationally when it comes down to it.
Please!
And you are wrong and it isn't just denial. I'm reacting harshly towards
Xander for a billion reasons very few of which have anything to do with
Angel/DB. How can you say that when I have enumerated several of these reasons
on this list?
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:39:04 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 6/2/98 9:17:31 PM, you wrote:
<<You and me both, sister.
I see Xander's lie as a foolish mistake, you see it as heresy.
To quote Homer S., a noted American philosopher, "eh, what are you gonna
do?"
>>
LOL agree to disagree I guess. Wait and see what Joss cooks up for us next
season?
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:39:08 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
Pandora--
I wasn't responding to your posts. Despite your passions, you have fairly
well thought out reasons behind your ideas.
The source of the quote said that guys would identify with Xander wanting
to eliminate Angel as a romantic interest. I was disagreeing with her
generalization by making one of my own. I would not include you in the
group I tarnished with my comment.
me
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:41:37 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
That's what it all comes down to, the mind of Joss.
(:
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:43:34 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: BUFFY: Angel lust
It has been posted several times that the reason most of us girls dislike
Xander is beause we have our Angel blinders on. I'll admit I'm a rabid Angel
and Buffy fan. My Angel lust is well known.
That said, however, I could just as easily say that the reason you guys are so
against Angel is because you want Xander with Buffy or because you relate to
Xander which therefor puts you at odds with Angel or whatever.
It's not a fair assessment of the views expressed on this list. Not ALL girls
are against Xander because of Angel though there are probably a few of these.
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:45:51 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 6/2/98 9:41:45 PM, you wrote:
<<The source of the quote said that guys would identify with Xander wanting
to eliminate Angel as a romantic interest. I was disagreeing with her
generalization by making one of my own. I would not include you in the
group I tarnished with my comment.>>
Understood but I had to defend my fellow Angel lovers ( and I am one of them).
And I do believe that Xander's decision was due, at least in part, to his
jealousy of Angel. It may not have been a major part but it had something to
do with it.
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:47:17 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 6/2/98 9:43:58 PM, you wrote:
<<That's what it all comes down to, the mind of Joss.>>
Scary. My mental well being lies in the hands of that man.
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:49:46 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: re: BUFFY: Angel lust
<It's not a fair assessment of the views expressed on this list. Not ALL
girls
are against Xander because of Angel though there are probably a few of
these.
C'mon now, just a few?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:58:31 -0700
From: belotur <apca@gold.com.br>
Subject: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
"...I think Xander betrayed Willow and Buffy and acted in a selfish way. =
I don't think=20
he is as much concerned about the evil Angel as he is about Angel the riv=
al for Buffy's=20
love..."
I agree with that and I have to add a few more things.=20
I think Xander should never have omitted that information from Buffy. Ev=
en=20
though he wanted to protect her, he knew the kind of relationship they ha=
d, they are=20
friends! It seems now that keeping stuff from each other, lying or trying=
to ommit=20
important information from each other is being a common factor to the Buf=
fy crew. I=20
guess we had that proved a lot in "Lie to Me"...Buffy said in this episod=
e she was able=20
to take the truth! So it was better to all of them if Xander could have t=
old her the=20
truth!=20
I know Xander doesn=B4t like Angel and I know he would love to have him =
slayed. I=20
just think he should have told Buffy Willow=B4s message! In the end of B2=
when the rest of=20
the crew was at school and Buffy was looking at them behind that tree, I =
am sure Willow=20
would never have forgiven Xander if she knew he didn=B4t deliver her mess=
age to Buffy!=20
Willow believes Xander gave Buffy the message! I felt so betrayed when Ms=
Calendar=20
didn=B4t let them know she knew about Angel=B4s curse, now I feel betraye=
d that Xander=20
didn=B4t tell Buffy Willow=B4s message. The feeling Buffy felt when she s=
aw that Angel was=20
back is worse than being prepared to kill him while he was Angelus. When =
Buffy knew she=20
had to kill Angel, it would have been better if she killed him when he wa=
s Angelus not=20
Angel!=20
I am sure this will make Willow, Xander and Buffy more distant from each=
other=20
on the 3rd season. No one will be able to trust each other, because someo=
ne may not be=20
telling the truth!
Aida
I guess Buffy would not be that certain about her actions if she ever kne=
w that Angel=20
might get his soul back. She could also have been killed by Angel, but th=
is was=20
something she should have decided, she should be aware of what could have=
happened to=20
Angel.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:51:50 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: BUFFY: Giles
Something just occurred to me in relation to Giles and the Xander/Angel
thing:
Giles first reaction to Jenny's death was to beat Angel with a flaming
baseball bat (which apparently in Pandora's world only equals dislike, not
hate--hehe).
Then in the library, he defends the recursing as being Jenny's last wish.
Is this consistent behavior/writing? Would he have taken such a 180 on
Angel that he would progress from violence to forgiveness?
Interesting....
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 17:58:42 EDT
From: <csummers@banyan.utelfla.com> (Charles Summers)
Subject: BUFFY: lying
I merely meant that Xander would have to take more blame for his lie if it
had had disastrous results.
As far as Buffy and Willow's feelings go, they have the choice of being mad
at him if they felt he acted selfishly/wrongly or forgiving him for a
mistake. Somehow I doubt it will be the latter, at least right away.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:04:13 -0500
From: msulliv@erols.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
BuFFySMG7@aol.com wrote:
>
> I honestly don't see what was soo wrong about xanders lie about them trying
> the curse....I mean i think that Xander made the right choice because lets
> look at this...OK first of all with Buffy not knowing that angelus might
> become angel she could fight better..i mean if she was just trying to stall
> she probably would have gotten killed because she barely beat him when she was
> trying her best to kill him!! And I dont see any good that it would to for
> buffy to know because buffy would still have to stab angel to close the
> vortex....and she did know it was angel with a soul after he got it.......So I
> really think that Xander made the right choice.....
>
> -
Do you really want someone else to make those kinds of decisions for
you? I don't. I want to be given all of the pertinent information and
then I will make my own decisions. Whether she would have fought harder
or not (and I tend to think that she would have still fought hard,
because too much was at stake), it was still her right to know and
Willow's right to expect her message to be delivered.
Margaret
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:30:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: cn2759@coastalnet.com (JW)
Subject: BUFFY: Xander debate
Well giving all the recent attacks on Xander lately I thought I would
jump into the fray. I apologize if I repeat any points that others have
made recently. I am going to try and somewhat defend Xander's
actions. The points below are not aimed at anyone person, but are
in response to the overall recent Xander threads, and some posted
right after 'Becoming pt2'.
First Xander being charged with an almost cold and calculating move
to remove Angel from his dating competition; I find false and
unwarranted. Xander made the choice at the last second in other
words in the "spur of the moment", it wasn't something he planned as
a way to get rid of Angel. Lets back track and think what was going
on; he's dating Cordy, just confessed love for Willow, a friend of his
is missing, and he was almost killed that night; lets not forget the
world on the brink of being sucked into hell. I don't think he was
thinking " gee with Angel out of the way, I can ask Buffy to the
summer dance". We see what I think is a better explanation of
Xander's motivation in 'Becoming pt1' in the library; and its pretty
much he wants Angel to pay for his sins
I believe part of his choice not to tell Buffy about Willow attempting
the curse was so she would give it her all, and then the world might
be saved. But, I think this stems from something else that is very
much in Xander's character, and that is his tendency to try and protect
those he cares about. I would submit that Xander's action were
partially based on him trying to protect Buffy from getting hurt; not
only physically, but also emotional as well. If she had gone in there
with the chance that Angel could be restored on her mind, it would
just given Angelus another card to play. I well know the pain that
Buffy was caused because of the way things played out, but that was
after the fact.
That is not to say I believe all of Xander's motives were pure of
heart, I'm sure his feelings for Angel played a big role in the choice.
Again, in 'Becoming pt1' we can see very clearly how he feels about
him. I'm sure to Xander all the stuff with Angel was a realization of
some fears, when Angel was revealed, it was clear Xander didn't trust
him. He even said he thought he was just another blood-sucker in
'PG' (where he had to force Angel to go and save Buffy). Then
over time it appeared he accepted Angel in shows like 'WmL' and
'Ted'. After Angel's change I'm sure it was "you stupid idiot you
knew it was going to happen".
As far as him being wrong, because it wasn't his choice not to tell
Buffy about the curse; I would disagree. First, it was his decision he
was the one that was there, so it was his choice. Let me preface this
by saying I love Willow and she is one of my fav characters. Okay
Willow made a decision, that doesn't make it a right decision. One of
things I love best about Willow is her attitude, but she at times can
view the world too much with "rose-colored glasses". Willow's
attitude was one of we'll do the curse and then Buffy and Angel can
be back together again just like the old days. Willow was overly
supportive of Buffy and Angel's relationship from the beginning
despite the problems, and she may have been a little naive about
what was going on. Even at the end, she hopes the curse worked
and that Buffy and Angel are together. When Xander decided
not to tell Buffy about the curse attempt, he was making a choice
also. The choice may have been right or wrong, but it doesn't make
the choice any less valid than Willow's choice, and it likely helped
saved the world.
In the end, telling Buffy about the curse made no real difference.
The ritual was already being performed, and the moment Angel pulled
the sword from demon the die was cast. And there was no way Buffy
could have stalled for time or kept it from happening. The curse
made little or no difference, except that without knowledge of the
curse; Buffy wasn't distracted and was able to gain the upper hand
with Angel. If she had known, she might have hesitated and the
world would have lost.
A valid point was brought up that the end didn't justify Xander's
actions because he didn't know what was going to happen. So lets
look at what Xander did know. 1) Willow a black arts novice was
trying to perform a risky spell that they weren't sure would work.
2) Willow was injured and might be unable to perform the
spell. 3) Angel and his crew were in the process of trying to suck
the world into Hell. 4) Angel was a major baddie, that would
require Buffy to be at the top of her game to defeat. 5) Buffy's
delaying tactics in 'Becoming pt1' didn't work and only got people
hurt. 6) He might have also known about Buffy saying "can't get
him back, just makes it easier" or something to that extent.
7) Giles said she would know if the spell worked almost
immediately, so she would know if it happened so why tell her.
Plus add in that he didn't know about Spike on the inside or
whether or not Oz and Cordy were back in the hospital to start the
spell. This is just my own POV, but what if Snyder had caught
them at the library and they couldn't get back to Willow with the
stuff, or a nurse caught them in the hospital room and put a stop
to it. It was also obvious that everyone was unsure that Buffy
would be able to take Angel out, witness the constant questioning
in 'Becoming pt1'. Buffy may have thought she was ready, but I
think everyone else knew how hard it would be on her, so why
make it harder telling her about the curse.
As far as the future ramifications of Xander's actions I'm sure he
will have to deal with them, and will be huge. Joss may decide to
let it drop, but I doubt it; given the attention he paid it at the
end of 'Becoming pt2. Whether it will be over in an episode like
in 'BBB' or if it will last longer like the two separate Giles and
Jenny splits is the mystery. I'm just guessing, but I think it
will be somewhere in between, around a two episode gulf.
Given the situation I can't damn Xander for his actions. Was he
wrong for not telling the truth, probably yes; was it the best
decision under the circumstances that likely helped save
the world, again probably yes. While, people may want a fall guy
for the way things ended, I don't think its fair to try and hang
it on Xander.
Going back and forth from outside the show to inside the BVS,
I have headache; the defense rests.
JW
GASP Keeper "The Ripper" nickname
Keeper Xander's Elvis Bust
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:31:00 -0400
From: skitblink@juno.com
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Giles
<<Giles first reaction to Jenny's death was to beat Angel with a flaming
baseball bat...(snip)Then in the library, he defends the recursing as
being Jenny's last wish. Is this consistent behavior/writing?>>
I just took this to mean that he was able to make the separation between
the demon Angelus and Angel, just like Willow and Buffy eventually did.
I think it makes perfect sense for his to react with violence first to
that horrible shock of Jenny, then rethink his position once he calmed
down. Anyone agree with that?
Skitblink
skitblink@juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: cn2759@coastalnet.com (JW)
Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander
>. As someone already said, had Buffy known she would have fought
>harder to keep Angel from cutting himself and keeping him from withdrawing the
>sword. The only reason Buffy did not resist letting Angel open the vortex was
>because she knew that that was one of the best ways to defeat Angelus.
No, before Buffy even enter the house, Angel had started the
ceremony and cut his hand. She walked in, Spike made his move,
another vamp jumps Buffy; before she can dispatch him, Angel is
back on his feet and removes the sword. No way that sword
wasn't coming out, no matter what she knew or didn't know.
It wasn't like she went in with the plan to let him open the mouth
to hell for fun. Whistler told her to try and stop it before it happened.
It just wasn't to be. I'm sure she would have prefered to
stop Angel by beheading or a stake as opposed to having to close
the vortex with him, because then you risk the end of the world
JW
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:58:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: cn2759@coastalnet.com (JW)
Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander
events happened the way they did because she did not have all the
>information. She had no reason to stop Angel from removing the sword because
>she knew she would have to destroy him - before or after he pulled the sword
>didn't matter. And it would be easier to destroy him if the fate of the world
>was counting on her to do it.
Whistler told her to stop Angel before he removed the sword. Do you
really think her plans were "I'll let him open the mouth to hell,
and almost destroy the world then I will stop him". No she would
have tried to stop him from opening the vortex from the beginning.
That was the main point of the battle to try and stop the vortex and
getting sucked into hell. Otherwise she wouldn't have risked going
into the "lions den" as it was, or teaming with Spike. Her main motivation
was to save the world, if she had to destroy Angel in the process,
that was just a price to be paid.
JW
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:00:09 EDT
From: <BuFFySMG7@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 98-06-02 16:24:27 EDT, you write:
<< Again, I reiterate, Buffy learned (as Whistler knew) that the only thing
she
could count on was herself. It was, essentially, the whole point of Becoming.
That when everything else is gone "No friends, no weapons, no hop" she had
one
more thing--herself. She knew the world depended on her and in order to get
the job done she had to put her personal feelings aside and do it. In the
past
she has been uncomfortable with this responsibility but I think now she has
accepted that it is hers and hers alone until she dies.
Xander either had little faith in her or acted out of spite and jealousy.
Either way you look at it his actions were a direct betrayl of everything his
friendships are founded upon. >>
I think though that if you remember correctly then you would see that Willow
said something like....i dont remember the exact words but this is
close..."Xander, you go and tell Buffy that we are going to try the
curse.....maybe she could stall or something"...so again i state that if Buffy
was trying to stall she probably would have lost...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:05:45 EDT
From: <BuFFySMG7@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 98-06-02 16:33:39 EDT, you write:
<< And would it have made it easier or harder to set those feelings aside if
she knew Angel was returning? I think harder, which means fighting
halfheartedly, which maybe means not surviving. >>
I completely agree with this. This is what I have been trying to say.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:14:02 EDT
From: <BuFFySMG7@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 98-06-02 17:58:35 EDT, you write:
<< I know Xander doesn┤t like Angel and I know he would love to have him
slayed. I
just think he should have told Buffy Willow┤s message! >>
I really think that Xander not telling Buffy had nothing to do with his hate
of angel but for the protection of Buffy..
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:38:46 EDT
From: <LStew10263@aol.com>
Subject: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
I just thought I'd come out of lurkdom and take a stab at
this so very popular topic; only my own personal angle. First
of all, I'm on the side of "Xander messed up and should have
let Buffy make her own decision herself. If she knew, the
situation most likely would have turned out differently - for
better or for worse - and it should've been her decision."
Pandora - are you by any chance a Republican? I
think it all comes down to your moral and even political
beliefs in deciding what side to take. For instance, a
Republican/Conservative person would probably be more
towards Pandora's and my way of thinking. A Democratic/
Liberal person would probably be more on the side of "Xander
did what he thought was best and omited information that
he felt would hinder Buffy's performance."
A Democrat may see it as Buffy wouldn't be able
to function as well if she had been told this piece of infor-
mation. Much in the same way as they believe the govern-
ment should be involved in making decisions for the people
because they are the higher, more educated citizens with
a better knowledge of what would be best for the people.
A Republican on the other hand may see it as Buffy
should've been told everything so she could make the best
decision for herself depending on the circumstances that may
have arose that couldn't have been predicted beforehand. That
she should be given every opportunity to handle the situation
as she saw fit and best at the time. Much the same way
as we believe the people know what's best for the people,
because who are government officials to decide what's best
for us?
Now, although my political knowledge is somewhat limited,
am I way off base here?! (I tried to compose this in a very non-
biased way, and am sure I probably wasn't too successful . . .
but hey, I tried! Wait, you guessed I was a Republican?!)
So, I'd be interested to know what you all think. . . have I hit
upon something or just made a complete idiot of myself?
- -Sharon
SharonRuth (LStew10263@aol.com)
Treasurer of the East Coast Buffy Crew
Keeper of Willow's Inability to Lie &
Drusilla's Adopted Niece Ms. Edith (She's such a doll!)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:45:31 EDT
From: <Fenris97@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2
In a message dated 98-06-02 16:49:03 EDT, PandyGrrl@aol.com writes:
<< But this pointless anyway because it still wasn't Xander's decision to
make,
as I and others have stated time and time again. >>
LOL!! Again, why wasn't it his decision? He is part of the gang, he did go
along with the crew the first time the curse failed, he did get his arm broken
for NO reason, he did try to fight the vampires that attacked the crew at the
library....what sane indivual would want Buffy trying to stall Angel again???
He didn't know Spike was on Buffy's side, so it was Buffy vs.
Angel/Spike/Dru...she's never even beaten Angel by himself!!! Why would he
tell her that the crew was doing the curse again, so to take it easy on Angel
because he MIGHT get his soul back?? Come on as we saw she barely was able to
win fighting all out...she wouldn't have won going at half-speed!!
Fenris (to coin your phrase: I feel like a broken record)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:15:21 -0400
From: Mark <markwithak@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
LStew10263@aol.com wrote:
<< Pandora - are you by any chance a Republican? I
think it all comes down to your moral and even political
beliefs in deciding what side to take.
am I way off base here?! >>
Sharon,
I'm an extremely liberal democrat who found Xander's behavior supremely
odious and insupportable, and I believe that you *are* way off-base. I
believe that republicans tend erroneously to attribute democrats' desire
for government intervention to alleviate massive misery and death to an
intolerance of personal determinism. It has nothing to do with that.
It has to do with an intolerance of massive misery and death, which
obviously, a socially darwinistic society encourages and does not
alleviate. People left to their own devices will exploit and destroy
each other, and the alpha ape syndrome ensures that those most odiously
devoid of compassion will gravitate to the top. Democrats don't like
this. Republicans think their dislike has to do with a lack of
appreciation for liberty, but it doesn't.
In any case, I reiterate that I'm a democrat who finds betrayal and lack
of moral integrity such as that exhibited by Xander among the most
reprehensible and evil of human characteristics, so your generalization
will not work, at least in the case of *this* democrat.
Mark
- --
markwithak@mindspring.com
keeper of Willow's diffidence
- ------------------------------------
"it could be me...it's not, though."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:15:27 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: Giles
In a message dated 6/2/98 9:58:37 PM, you wrote:
<<Giles first reaction to Jenny's death was to beat Angel with a flaming
baseball bat (which apparently in Pandora's world only equals dislike, not
hate--hehe).
Then in the library, he defends the recursing as being Jenny's last wish.
Is this consistent behavior/writing? Would he have taken such a 180 on
Angel that he would progress from violence to forgiveness?
>>
You're going to force me to do this aren't you? This reopens the whole
Angel/Angelus issue which has just as many sides as the Xander betrayl thing.
Giles in his wisdom knows the difference between Angel and Angelus. Angelus
killed Jenny not Angel. Giles knows that and he also knows that what Jenny
would have wanted was for everyone to stop feeling miserable. She was against
her family's idea of vengence in Surprise and I believe that Giles knows how
she felt.
And Angel is/was his friend before he lost his soul. Even without Buffy around
they had their meetings (in season one) to discuss slayer stuff. Giles
apparently trusted him enough to invite Angel into his house.
So no, I don't think it is inconsistent. Giles' sensitivity is one of his most
endearing qualities.
Pandora reopening that can of worms
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:43:58 EDT
From: <PandyGrrl@aol.com>
Subject: Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . .
In a message dated 6/2/98 11:42:10 PM, you wrote:
<< Pandora - are you by any chance a Republican? I
think it all comes down to your moral and even political
beliefs in deciding what side to take. For instance, a
Republican/Conservative person would probably be more
towards Pandora's and my way of thinking. A Democratic/
Liberal person would probably be more on the side of "Xander
did what he thought was best and omited information that
he felt would hinder Buffy's performance."
>>
Hate to disappoint you but I am a Democrat. Well actually, I lean more towards
independent because it's so hard to tell the difference between the two
parties these days. But I am definately not a Republican. My mother would be
rolling over in her grave, God forbid something terrible should happen to her.
I just don't like lying and I am very Pro-Buffy and Angel. Dishonesty like
that between friends who depend on eachother for their lives is inexcusable.
Xander has some redeeming to do in my opinion.
Pandora
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:17:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jill Kirby <jtkirby@popmail.mcs.com>
Subject: BUFFY: Admin: Listowner in pain! Film at 11!
A gentle reminder to everyone: if you're replying to a post, please trim
quoted material down to FOUR LINES OR LESS PER POINT.
FOUR LINES. Not five, not six, not 13. I've been sending out a lot of
reminder notes today, and quite honestly my fingers are tired and my carpal
tunnel is acting up, and I don't want to have to send out any more.
If you have any questions, please refer to the list rules you received when
you s*bscribed, or contact me or Sharon offlist. Thanks.
Jill
Jill Kirby ~~ jtkirby@mcs.com ~~ www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/4107
NatPack ~~ ABotCoS ~~ NP4 ~~ Dreamer/Minstrel
And "The Masochism Tango" is a dance all fen should be familiar with by now...
--Jennie Hayes
- -
------------------------------
End of buffy-digest V2 #320
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