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From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: (andina) quena octave??
Date: 16 Mar 1998 13:58:08 -0700
Hi,I wonder why in a quena(some)when you play first and second octave
the tune is okay,but if you play the thirth the tune is not good.
I that normal or the quena is not good??
thanks.
Manuel.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Webster" <websterk@lic.gov.au>
Subject: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply
Date: 17 Mar 1998 10:31:17 +1100
>>> <mnavarro=40mail.xmission.com> 03/17 7:58 am >>>
>Hi,I wonder why in a quena(some)when you play first and second
>octave
>the tune is okay,but if you play the thirth the tune is not good.
>I that normal or the quena is not good??
>thanks.
>Manuel.
Hi Manuel
I=27m not sure if you mean intonation (accurate tuning) also I haven=27t
had a lot of experience with the third octave but have gained some =
understanding of a few principles regarding the tuning of flutes.
So the following is intended more as a discussion and I am interested
in hearing other opinions on the matter.
With flutes intonation depends upon the position and size of finger holes.
If you take two quenas, identical except one has large holes closer to
the instruments foot. Both instruments may be in tune for the first =
octave.
In higher octaves however the quena with large holes will play sharper.
Interestingly most tourist imports I=27ve seen have very large finger
holes with the F=23 hole at about the middle of the instrument while
the few professional instruments I=27ve come across have much smaller
holes placed higher on the instrument.
Obviously the thumb hole position and size is of great importance
for the third octave.
If your quena plays increasingly sharp as you go up the third octave
but only for notes where the thumb hole is open you may be able to
improve things as follows :
Fill the thumb hole and re drill as a smaller hole closer to the notch =
end.
I have found similar adjustments need only be small (1mm or so).
Usually the upper edge (closest to the notch end) of the new hole
should not move much at all providing this hole was in tune at the
lower end of its octave range and the change in size is not too great.
I don=27t know of any way to calculate hole position and size so I find
it best to drill a small hole, then gradually enlarge it until the =
instrument
plays in tune.
If your quena plays increasingly sharp as you go up the third octave
regardless of whether the thumb hole is open or not. Then you will
probably find the second octave is also sharp but perhaps not=20
seriously so. This would suggest all the finger holes are a little
too large. You may be able to improve this on a wood or bamboo
instrument by adding varnish or the thicker sanding sealer to the
lower and side edges of the finger holes. This would close the holes
in a little and center them slightly higher to compensate for their
smaller size. In this intonation in the first octave is maintained while
lowering the higher octaves.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply
Date: 17 Mar 1998 08:48:56 -0700
Hi,let me give you a example:
I am playing the note D,first and second octave are easy.
In the thirth octave I believe you must cover only the
hole of C and also the thumb, and blow hard,then I get the
thirth octave of D,I am not happy with this one,maybe the
practice will give me the perfect thirth octave,I don't know.
Maybe you can try it the octave(3th)how I discribed above
and let us know.
thanks.
Manuel.
>>>> <mnavarro@mail.xmission.com> 03/17 7:58 am >>>
>>Hi,I wonder why in a quena(some)when you play first and second
>>octave
>>the tune is okay,but if you play the thirth the tune is not good.
>>I that normal or the quena is not good??
>>thanks.
>>Manuel.
>
>
>
>Hi Manuel
>
>I'm not sure if you mean intonation (accurate tuning) also I haven't
>had a lot of experience with the third octave but have gained some
understanding of a few principles regarding the tuning of flutes.
>
>So the following is intended more as a discussion and I am interested
>in hearing other opinions on the matter.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David M. Sonntag" <sonntag@one.net>
Subject: (andina) Escala musical--was quena octaves
Date: 17 Mar 1998 11:23:06 -0500
>Hi,let me give you a example:
>
>I am playing the note D,first and second octave are easy.
>In the thirth octave I believe you must cover only the
>hole of C and also the thumb, and blow hard,then I get the
>thirth octave of D,I am not happy with this one,maybe the
>practice will give me the perfect thirth octave,I don't know.
>Maybe you can try it the octave(3th)how I discribed above
>and let us know.
>thanks.
>Manuel.
Hola Cumpa:
Wow, te crees quenista? Parece que tu conjunto falta a un verdadero
quenista, pero que sea potolo... Debes de comer mas arroz con pollo...
je, je.
Of all the quenas that I have from South America, they all have a
pretty ragged 3rd octave D, using the fingering you detail here.
By ragged, I mean a tendency to blow flat. And at such a high
note, embouchre tighter than um, (substitute your own allegory),
it's almost impossible to adjust the pitch up.
I don't say this to brag, but the only quena that I can play a
decent 3rd octave D on is one that I made to my own measure.
I have spoken with other quenistas who agree that the 3rd octave
seems the most susceptible to individual variations in embouchre
style and anatomy.
Speaking of "la escala musical," I just read a very interesting
bit in William Sullivan's THE SECRET OF THE INCAS. I doubt that
there's a more insightful tome on andean mythology than his. Anyway,
pp 337-339, he is talking about comparisons between andean cosmology,
how they tied many of their rituals and myths to the stars. I'll
just quote a few interesting passages:
There is a Chinese saying that 'the calendar and the pitch pipes have
such a close fit that you could not slip a hair between them...' like
the Chinese pipes, the Andean panpipe is tuned to a pentatonic scale.
Andean thought is shot through with 'quint-essence': five Suns,
five steps on the pyramid, five pairs of mummified Emperors in the
Temple of the Sun, five notes in the scale...
Scale. The word comes from the Latin for "ladder" or "stairs," expressing
the ascending stages of musical transport as effortlessly as the stairway
to the stars...this teaching may stretch even farther back in time than
anyone yet suspects--its traces can still be found in medieval musicology
as well...The names of the Western seven-tone musical scale are Latin
mnemonics for components of the "scale" of the organization of the cosmos,
a scheme already ancient in Dante's time:
DO DOminus "The Lord, God"
RE REgina caelum "The Queen of Heaven" (the moon)
MI MIcrocosmos "The Microcosm" (Earth)
FA FAta "Planets/Fates"
SOL SOL "The Sun"
LA via LActea "The Milky Way"
SI SIdera "[All] Stars"
DO DOminus "The Lord, God"
So when you try to hit the third octave D, you're really shooting for
the moon!
Un abrazo pa' todos,
Dave
5' DAVE SONNTAG
|||||||||||| PhD Program, Toxicology. U of Cincinnati
GATNNOS EVAD 5' (513) 751-8047 (FAX) 558-4397
PGP Key: http://w3.one.net/~sonntag/davekey.asc
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: Re: (andina) Escala musical--was quena octaves
Date: 17 Mar 1998 11:03:26 -0700
No creas,ya me llaman "potolin"posible en unos meses me
llamaran "potolon".
Oye y tu te crees Nostradamus con eso de las estrellas y la luna???
jaaa!!
======================
So!!!I guess the thirth octave is almost imposible to get it clean??
How you said,I can only get a flat 3th D.
Maybe the best thing to do is to make my own quena.
Manuel.
>
>Of all the quenas that I have from South America, they all have a
>pretty ragged 3rd octave D, using the fingering you detail here.
>By ragged, I mean a tendency to blow flat. And at such a high
>n
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David M. Sonntag" <sonntag@one.net>
Subject: Re: (andina) Escala musical--was quena octaves
Date: 18 Mar 1998 13:30:12 -0500
>No creas,ya me llaman "potolin"posible en unos meses me
>llamaran "potolon".
>Oye y tu te crees Nostradamus con eso de las estrellas y la luna???
>jaaa!!
No es cosa de Nostradamus, solo que fue un hecho de interes historico
que el origen de los nombres de la "escala" viniesen desde el "firmamento."
Ya sabemos que en el cielo mas alto, los angeles tocan musica andina.
Chaufa,
Dave
5' DAVE SONNTAG
|||||||||||| PhD Program, Toxicology. U of Cincinnati
GATNNOS EVAD 5' (513) 751-8047 (FAX) 558-4397
PGP Key: http://w3.one.net/~sonntag/davekey.asc
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: (andina) Fw: Oiling bamboo instruments
Date: 19 Mar 1998 09:06:00 -0700
>> From: Chris Rohrer <crohrer@osmre.gov>
>> To: andina@lists.xmission.com
>> Subject: Oiling bamboo instruments
>> Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 10:03 AM
>>
>> Last fall there was some discussion about oiling methods and the best
>types
>> of oil to use to preserve bamboo instruments. Marcelo recommended lemon
>> oil. Dave S recommended almond oil. Here are a couple follow-up
>> questions:
>>
>> Is the lemon oil your regular lemon furniture oil, e.g. Formby's?
>>
>> Almond extract is one of those substances whose taste and smell I can't
>> stand in quantity, though I like almonds themselves (the licorice/anise
>> flavor is another-- your bottles of Amaretto, ouzo, and anisette are safe
>> in my house). Does almond oil have a strong almond flavor that I might
>> find distasteful? If so, does it go away after awhile?
>>
>> Also, I'm always looking for words and sheet music, for even the standard
>> tunes that everyone else but me knows by heart. I'm probably the only
>> person on the list without a notebook full of songs. I can crib from
>liner
>> notes and pick out words by ear, but my Spanish isn't so great (neither
>is
>> my English when it comes to transcribing lyrics-- I thought for years
>that
>> Hendrix was saying, "... 'scuse me while I kiss this guy..." in Purple
>> Haze). Obviously, translations would be helpful, too. I don't have much
>> to offer for barter in return. I have a transcription of "Llaqui Antara"
>> by Incantation that I'll try to remember to scan and post. I have a cute
>> Bolivian zampona method with a funky notation system (not far removed
>from
>> the notation on the paper insert that comes with Hohner harmonicas) that
>I
>> can make available to anyone interested.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for all help.
>>
>> ****************************************************************
>> Chris Rohrer
>> Senior Reclamation Specialist
>> Abandoned Mine Reclamation Program
>> Utah Division of Oil, Gas & Mining
>> (801) 538-5322
>> http://www.nr.state.ut.us/OGM/amrpage.htm
>> The usual disclaimers....
>
>
-
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From: mvillacres@esri.com (Marcelo Villacres [ESRI-Redlands])
Subject: Re: (andina) Fw: Oiling bamboo instruments
Date: 19 Mar 1998 15:47:59 -0800
>> Is the lemon oil your regular lemon furniture oil, e.g. Formby's?
I have used regular lemon furniture oil. The smell is pretty strong at
first but it will completely disappear in a few weeks. I have not used
almond oil. Linseed oil is one a lot of people like to use but it turns
rancid and the smell will last for months.
>> Also, I'm always looking for words and sheet music, for even the standard
>> tunes that everyone else but me knows by heart.
I think you would have better luck if you were hiking through the Andes
and stopped at some thatched roof dwelling and asked for hot water.
Seriously though, you could ask for specific tunes and someone here in
the list may just have it.
Marcelo
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Webster" <websterk@lic.gov.au>
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply - Reply
Date: 23 Mar 1998 14:00:29 +1100
Ken Webster websterk=40lic.gov.au
Hi Manuel
I tried D,3 briefly over the weekend.
My parents are visiting so could not really investigate it at length.
what I found is that of four quenas only one plays D,3 on pitch.
This is a homemade PVC quena with which I have made no attempt
to tune the third octave. So by fortunate accident rather than design.
My worst quena is a tourist instrument from Otavalo which is about
50 cents sharp for octave 1 and 2 but a little flat on D,3=20
(when I manage to hit the note at all).
A wooden Taki I have on loan plays D,3 about 20 cents flat while my bamboo
Aymara professional is about 30 cents flat.
I have never seriously played into the third octave so probably practice =
would
improve things especially the tonal quality of the note.
Well lets see what are the differences between these instruments.
The PVC quena has a large constant bore, no foot plate, medium sized =
finger
holes and a =22V=22 notch.
The others all have a =22U=22 notch.
The Taki bore and finger holes are small but I don=27t know yet if the =
bore is tapered.
The Otavalo and Ayamra quenas have a medium tapered bore with large finger =
holes.
I wonder If it has something to do with bore taper or the absent foot =
plate of the PVC quena.
Third octave intonation is going to be an interesting project for me =
eventually.
Bye
>Hi,let me give you a example:
>I am playing the note D,first and second octave are easy.
>In the thirth octave I believe you must cover only the
>hole of C and also the thumb, and blow hard,then I get the
>thirth octave of D,I am not happy with this one,maybe the=20
>practice will give me the perfect thirth octave,I don=27t know.
>Maybe you can try it the octave(3th)how I discribed above
>and let us know.
>thanks.
>Manuel.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Capt David M. Sonntag USAF BSC" <sonntag@one.net>
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply - Reply
Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:23:24 -0500 (EST)
> I have never seriously played into the third octave so probably practice would
> improve things especially the tonal quality of the note.
>
> Well lets see what are the differences between these instruments.
> The PVC quena has a large constant bore, no foot plate, medium sized finger
> holes and a "V" notch.
>
> The others all have a "U" notch.
> The Taki bore and finger holes are small but I don't know yet if the bore is tapered.
> The Otavalo and Ayamra quenas have a medium tapered bore with large finger holes.
>
> I wonder If it has something to do with bore taper or the absent foot plate of the PVC quena.
> Third octave intonation is going to be an interesting project for me eventually.
>
The quena I have that hits a good D, also has a "V" notch. I believe
that the notch would have more effect than the foot plate. Finger holes
might have something to do. I believe from having made a few quenas
that the larger the upper three holes are, the easier the 3rd octave
will be to get. Course I could be wrong, since I haven't made a quena
in over three years. Hard to believe, eh Manuel?
Chaufa,
Dave
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Webster" <websterk@lic.gov.au>
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply - Reply - Reply
Date: 23 Mar 1998 16:32:23 +1100
Hi Andinos
Now this is getting interesting=21
One big advantage of PVC is in being able to experiment.
For example I use 3 sections taped together ( notch, Upper and lower =
finger holes).=20
This makes it easy to change just one thing and see what happens.
So If I have time I will check out some old notch sections and see if =
=22V=22 or
=22U=22 notches make intonation difference.
As Dave suggests the finger holes are worth looking at. The Taki has a =
rather
small F=23 hole while D is a little bigger and C bigger again. This =
increases finger
stretch but the second octave intonation is real good while D,3 is 20 =
cents flat.
On my PVC the F=23 is large with D smaller and C smaller again.
This reduces finger stretch but F=23,2 is sharp and D,3 is right on pitch.
I=27ve been working on second octave intonation but still have a little =
way to go.
Anyway I will sure keep an eye on just what is happening in the third =
octave
as I continue developing my PVC quena design.
>The quena I have that hits a good D, also has a =22V=22 notch. I believe
>that the notch would have more effect than the foot plate. Finger holes
>might have something to do. I believe from having made a few quenas
>that the larger the upper three holes are, the easier the 3rd octave
>will be to get. Course I could be wrong, since I haven=27t made a quena
>in over three years. Hard to believe, eh Manuel?
>Chaufa,
>Dave
-
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave??
Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:00:39 -0700
Hi,I just talked with a andean musician in Miami,he was telling me
that his quena don't get the ideal tone,pitch,etc if he don't play
the quena for a least 10 15 minutes before the practice or the
performance,I remember when we was almost ready to play in public
David Sonntag used to walk and play the quena different melodies
and Fernando said to me,tell the gringo to be quiet,,jeje,but now
I understand why that GRINGO played the quena before the
performance.(gringo diablo!!).
Anyway,I remember last december playing in the mall
for 5 hours, my quena was so easy to octave it,because the moist
and the temperature was the ideal,but with PVC must be different
history.
All the Best!.
manuel.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Webster" <websterk@lic.gov.au>
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply
Date: 23 Mar 1998 19:19:35 +1100
Ken Webster websterk=40lic.gov.au
Hi Manuel
This is a well known phenomenon of flutes even those silver
and gold tube things that cost an arm and a leg and more.
The Flute list had an extensive discussion on just this topic some
months ago.
Apart from the musician warming up the instrument must be also
but its not just temperature alone. If it were temperature then=20
the flute would go slightly flat as it warms up as sound travels
slower in less dense air. In fact the opposite occurs it goes sharp.
Now I don=27t know for sure but I think the effect is due to increased
humidity in the tube. The moisture increases the density of the air
column in the tube which transmits the sound pressure waves more
freely therefore increases speed and pitch with it.
For this reason I try to practice at least half an hour well before
playing in public and breath down the quena to warm it up just
before playing. This is of course not as good as actually playing
but it certainly helps a lot.
PVC instruments are definatly affected in this way too and it is
something to take into account when tuning.
>>> <mnavarro=40mail.xmission.com> 03/23 3:00 pm >>>
>Hi,I just talked with a andean musician in Miami,he was telling me
>that his quena don=27t get the ideal tone,pitch,etc if he don=27t play
>the quena for a least 10 15 minutes before the practice or the
>performance,I remember when we was almost ready to play in public
>David Sonntag used to walk and play the quena different melodies
>and Fernando said to me,tell the gringo to be quiet,,jeje,but now
>I understand why that GRINGO played the quena before the=20
>performance.(gringo diablo=21=21).
>Anyway,I remember last december playing in the mall
>for 5 hours, my quena was so easy to octave it,because the moist
>and the temperature was the ideal,but with PVC must be different
>history.
>All the Best=21.
>manuel.
-
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvillacres@esri.com (Marcelo Villacres [ESRI-Redlands])
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave??
Date: 23 Mar 1998 11:34:34 -0800
V-shaped notch, U-shaped notch, bore, length, diameter of holes, =
spacing,
all are factors in how well tuned a quena will be. What we need is =
someone
with a spectrum analyzer to run some tests as all these factors are =
varied.
I am going to go out on a limb and talk about elementary physics of =
sound,
and so if anyone has anything to add to this, or correct, it would be =
great.
Sound has two components, frequency and amplitude. The frequency =
determines
the note or pitch, and the amplitude determines the volume. Furthermore, =
the
frequency can be seen as having two components, a fundamental frequency
and harmonic component. A fundamental frequency is the one with the =
highest
amplitude. The harmonic component is made of higher frequencies with =
lesser
amplitude. If I remember correctly, a second harmonic is half the =
amplitude
of the fundamental frequency, and so on till the higher frequencies are
practically inaudible. It is the harmonic component that determines the
quality of the note or timbre.
Talking specifically about the quena, the fundamental frequency is =
determined
by the length between the notch and the edge of the hole (or the end of =
the
quena if all the holes are covered). The amplitude is given by the force
in the air stream, and the diameter of the quena. The quality of the =
sound,
that is the harmonic component, is determined by the thickness of the =
wall,
its fribrous structure, the bore, and the size of the holes. This =
actually
very simplified. Looking at the complexities of sound reproduction we =
will
see that the amplitude is also affected by the thickness of the wall and
its fribrous structure, as well as the diameter of the holes, that is=20
because the harmonic content adds to the overall sound of the =
instrument.
It seems to me that all this complicated even more so because wind =
instruments
do not reproduce sound like string instruments, where higher notes are
achieved by shorter and thinner strings. I think wind instruments rely =
on
aplifying certain harmonic components to produce higher pitches, and =
thus
the need for mixed fingerings. On the quena this does not seem to be an
issue until one reaches the third octave. Being that the construction of
the quena is completely empiric, no one has been able to perfect the =
quena
so it is made in some consistent way.
At last we have the human factor, that of the player. This is equally =
complex
as the quena does not have a mouth piece, and therefore the player's =
mouth
becomes the instrument's mouth piece. The size and shape of the mouth, =
how
the player positions the lips and blows, these all affect not only the
quality of the sound but the pitch as well. I have personally known =
people
who can get a slightly higher pitch out of my quena than I do. If we =
think
this way then we may realize that the maker of the quena, who may not
necessarily be a musician, may have a static way of blowing and so makes
the quenas at a perfect pitch according to him. A musician may produce a
different pitch and find that the quena is not that great, or maybe =
better
than the maker thought.
I am reminded of an anectdote I heard from Lucho Cavour (Ernesto =
Cavour's
brother). I was in his shop some ten years ago, talking about quenas, =
when
a young man from some well known local band walked in. He was in the =
search
of the perfect quena (sound familiar?) and Lucho said the following. =
Many
years earlier, during the days when Los Jairas were the hottest Bolivian =
group,
a bunch of musicians had gathered at someone's house; among them was "El
Gringo," the famed quena player from Los Jairas. As it turned out he did
not has quena with him, but the host had one hanging on the wall, a very
pretty carved quena... of the tourist type that are not made for =
playing.
Yet, El Gringo picked it up and got the greatest sound out of it. =
Lucho's
words to this young man were "there is no such thing as the perfect =
quena,
you are the perfect quena inside yourself."
And so with that I shall leave you all to meditate on this subject and
perhaps go back to practicing in search of the perfect quena withing
yourselves.
Marcelo
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ken Webster" <websterk@lic.gov.au>
Subject: Re: (andina) quena octave?? - Reply
Date: 24 Mar 1998 13:19:16 +1100
Hi Marcelo
Thanks for your long post.
>And so with that I shall leave you all to meditate on this subject and
>perhaps go back to practicing in search of the perfect quena within
>yourselves.
Your point is well taken, early on it became obvious to me that
the quena is an instrument that demands one pour out his heart and
soul to breath life into the music. If we can=27t do that it just =
doesn=27t work
at all, and what would be the point.
I may never play like =22El Gringo,=22 after all in Bathurst Australia =
I=27m
all alone in this endeavor. It may seem from all this talk that I search
for the perfect quena, I know it does not exist.
I am in fact approaching the whole thing from two directions at once.
Mostly playing the best I can but also making the best instrument I can.
For this reason I=27m always very interested in peoples ideas and =
impressions of what makes a good quena. It helps me improve in that
direction at least. Perhaps one day I will be able to travel to the Andes
and really learn to play.
All the best from this silly gringo.
Ken Webster websterk=40lic.gov.au
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnavarro@mail.xmission.com
Subject: (andina) someone know this group??
Date: 30 Mar 1998 18:43:34 -0700
I attended an art festival this past weekend and listened to a group called
CH'UWA YACU BOLIVIA. This was some of the most beautiful and compelling music
I have ever heard. The founder of this group is Javier Zapata and is from
Cochabamba. I feel this group really needs to be acknowleged as a leader in
spreading the Bolivian culture all over the world.
Thank You,
Dan
cobra232@aol.com
==============================================
Manuel.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chris Rohrer" <crohrer@osmre.gov>
Subject: (andina) Re: Oiling bamboo instruments, continued
Date: 31 Mar 1998 11:38:52 -0800
I asked and Marcelo replied...
> >> Also, I'm always looking for words and sheet music, for even the
standard
> >> tunes that everyone else but me knows by heart.
>
> I think you would have better luck if you were hiking through the Andes
> and stopped at some thatched roof dwelling and asked for hot water.
> Seriously though, you could ask for specific tunes and someone here in
> the list may just have it.
>
Okay-- here are a few specific titles: Mama India, Mama Criso, Ojos
azules, Papel de plata, Carnavalito humahuaqueno, Llorando se fue, El
condor pasa, Siempre he de adorarte, Viva mi patria Bolivia, Los senors de
potosi...
Just a few of the chestnuts.
Gracias en antemano.
-