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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 16:51:01 CST
From: Pam Korda <kor2@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: "Viren R. Shah" <viren@faser.cs.olemiss.edu>
Subject: Re: JORDAN--oh where, oh where has my FAQ gone?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:12:07 -0600
0.1...............................WHAT ARE THESE JORDAN WHEEL OF TIME BOOKS?
The Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan:
Hardcover editions:
THE EYE OF THE WORLD, ISBN 0-312-85009-3, $24.95
THE GREAT HUNT, ISBN 0-312-85140-5, $22.95
THE DRAGON REBORN, ISBN 0-312-85248-7, $22.95
THE SHADOW RISING, ISBN 0-312-85431-5, $24.95
THE FIRES OF HEAVEN, ISBN 0-312-85427-7, $25.95
Paperback editions:
THE EYE OF THE WORLD, ISBN 0-812-51181-6, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN)
THE GREAT HUNT, ISBN 0-812-51772-5, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN)
THE DRAGON REBORN, ISBN 0-812-51371-1, $5.99 ($6.99 CAN)
THE SHADOW RISING, ISBN 0-812-51373-8, $6.99 ($7.99 CAN)
Published by Tor Books
Ask for them at your favorite bookstore, or order the paperback editions
directly from:
Publishers Book and Audio Mailing Service
PO Box 120159
Staten Island NY 10312-0004
To cover postage and handling, add $1.25 for the first book and $.25 for each
additional book. Check or money order only; no CODs.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden, senior editor, Tor Books
pnh@panix.com * CIS: 72701,1344 * opinions mine
If you are in Europe, it may be more expedient to pick up the British
Editions published by Orbit (prices are listed in pounds). Thanks to
Helmut Geyer for this information:
THE EYE OF THE WORLD, ISBN 1-85723-076-0 5.99
THE GREAT HUNT, ISBN 1-85723-027-2 5.99
THE DRAGON REBORN, ISBN 1-85723-065-5 5.99
THE SHADOW RISING, ISBN 1-85723-121-X 5.99
The covers stick on better too!
0.1b..............................................WHAT ARE THE CONAN BOOKS?
Jeffrey Scott Raglin reports:
Well, a little bit of research at a local Used Book Store has uncovered for
me the fact that Robert Jordan wrote, not one, not two, not even four, but
rather Seven "Conan the Barbarian" books-one of which was the Novellization
of "Conan the Destroyer" (the second Arnie Conan Movie). Having skimmed parts
of several, I can conclude that this is definately the same Robert Jordan
we know here. As evidence: the opening sentences of five of the books:
Opening Sentence, Conan the Invincible
<CtI, I, 9> "The icy wind whipping through the brown, sheer-walled chasms of the Kezankian Mountains seemed colder still around the bleak stone fortress that grew from the granite flank of a nameless mountain in the heart of the range." [NOTE: not only does Jordan begin this book with a wind blowing, but he manages to string an amazing total of four consecutive prepositional phrases at the end of the sentence.]
Opening Sentence, Conan the Unconquered
<CtU, 0,9, Prologue> "Storm winds howling off the midnight-shrouded Vilayet Sea clawed at the granite-walled compound of the Cult of Doom"
Opening Paragraph, Conan the Magnificent
<CtM, 0,11,Prologue> "Icy air hung deathly still among the crags of the Kezankian mountains, deep in the heart of that arm of those mountains which stretched south and west along the border between Zamora and Brythunia. No bird sang, and the cloudless azure sky was empty, for even the ever-present vultures could find no current on which to soar"
Opening Two Sentences, Conan the Victorious
<CtV, 0, 1, Prologue> "The Vendhyan night was preternaturally still, the air weighty and oppressive. No slightest breeze stirred, leaving the capital city of Ayodhya to swelter."
Opening Sentence, Conan the Triumphant
<CtT, 0,11, Prologue> "The great granite mound called Tor Al'Kiir crouched like a malevolent toad in the night, wearing a crown of toppled walls and ruined columns, memories of failed attempts by a score of Ophirean dynasties to build there." [Alright, nothing about the wind here. But I include it anyway, because A. It's just such a ridiculous image, and B. Tor Al 'Kiir is very reminiscent of Kari Al'Thor, which makes the image even more ridiculous. Besides, the next paragraph goes on to describe
ng black clouds" of a storm that included, among other things "lightning streaking the dark like dragons' tongues", so there's our weather reference.
[The Opening Sentences of CtDef and CtDes are not nearly as distinctively Jordanesque, describing the sun rather than the wind.]
0.2.................HOW DO I POST TO rec.arts.sf.written ABOUT THESE BOOKS?
Make sure you put the word 'JORDAN' (upper or lower case, your choice) in
the subject line so that kill files can be specialized to catch all the
Jordan/Wheel of Time related posts. For example:
Subject: JORDAN: Is Verin Black?
Subject: JORDAN: What's with Gawyn's weird behavior?
Subject: JORDAN: Why did Lanfear and Roy do that?
0.3......................................WHY DON'T WE START A NEW NEWSGROUP
LATE BREAKING NEWS: Discussion on the creation of a seperate jordan rec.group is going on right now on news.groups. One assumes that a vote will be taken in about a month, or so.
Judy G. says:
My canned response to the above is:
Not everyone gets the alt groups. I would like a group just for Jordan fans
(no, not a support group), but I think it is ridiculous to do something that
would preclude people who were interested from participating, just because some
people don't know how to or don't want to utilize their kill files. We put
Jordan in the title, so they should not have too much trouble killing them,
unless of course they are stupid. The last time someone complained about the
Jordan traffic, I said something to this effect, and said that the Jordan
haters or non-readers should consider themselves lucky that we are considerate
enough to put Jordan in the title, opposed to titling things like "Lanfear
seduces Roy, who later cuts off her hand" and even more generic things like
"The severed hand", which would *never* get killed. (To give the non-Jordan
people credit, I got much mail saying that people do very much appreciate the
"Jordan" in the title, and thanked the Jordan people in general for making
their lives a little easier).
There was also an attempt to start a rec group that failed miserably. The
poor guy who tried to do it got flamed that he was doing it wrong, can't he
read, etc., which I found annoying because the guy was trying to help the
whole group out! The issue of getting the correct number of votes to start a
rec group was in question (you need so many people saying yes, and so few
people saying no). Anyhow, this poor guy got flamed so bad that he gave up.
Another thing to consider is that a number of rec.arts.sf.written readers read
this group to find out about other books that people like. I have seen a
number of people mention that they read Jordan's books after seeing all the
traffic on the net about them. This is another reason for keeping it in the
main group.
Stephen Graham adds:
I wouldn't appreciate it. I may not like Jordan, but I prefer having the
option of reading posts about him in this group. Splitting on an author
basis weakens r.a.sf.w.
Erica S. adds:
I would never have discovered the books if not for the traffic on r.a.sf.w.
0.4.........................................MIS-STEPS (ERRORS ALONG THE WAY)
Jeff Smith:
<TSR: 35, 576, Sharp Lessons, 401>
"Egwene realized Nynaeve's blankets were empty." Unfortunately,
at this particular time, Nynaeve was in Tanchico with Elayne.
It should be Moraine's blankets that are empty......Correct?
Don Harlow:
It seems to me that early in the first volume Jordan took some time
to decide whether the marsh-forest in the east of the Two Rivers
was the Riverwood or the Waterwood.
In tSR, when Thom Merrilin first encounters Bayle Domon on the docks
at Tanchico, no indication is given that the two of them have ever met
before, even though Thom once spent several days on Bayle's boat in
tEotW.
In tFoH, when Thom Merrilin joins the menagerie in which Aludra is
working, no indication is given that the two of them have ever met
before, even though Thom once helped save her life in tDR.
Damien Cole:
Why does Moiraine wear her great serpent ring on her left hand in
TEotW and TDR and on her right hand in TGH? I can think of four
possible reasons:
a) a cunning plan by Jordan to make us believe sweet,
innocent Moiraine was at the Darkfriend social.
b) Moiraine has an evil, identical twin sister who wears
her ring on the other hand.
c) It's Moiraine's ring and she can wear it on whatever
hand she damn well pleases.
d) none of the above.
Joseph Shaw:
From the glossary to TEotW, the entry for "Farstrider, Jain" says
that "He vanished in 994 NE, after returning from a trip into the
Great Blight which some say had taken him all the way to Shayol Ghul."
The glossary to TDR for "Travels of Jaim Farstrider, the" says that he
disappeared shortly after the Aiel War, which is about 20 years ago.
Why the differences in spelling?
Note that even in TEotW, all other indications are that Farstrider
disappeared 20 years ago, just after the Aiel war: Ba'alzamon
tells Rand [ch. 51] "Jain Farstrider, a hero, whom I painted like a
fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me." The man
that Loial said came to Stedding Shangtai telling them the story
about blinding the Eye of the World came just after the Aiel War.
Twould seem to be Farstrider since Ba'alzamon's comments followed a
reference to the Aiel that told the story to the Tuatha'an.
So, it seems that the 994 number is wrong.
Since according to Loial's story, the man planned on taking the story
to Tar Valon, and doesn't seem to have made it, it would imply he was
dead. He was "at the point of death, though there was no wound or mark
on him" and quickly got well within the stedding. Sounds like the
DO's taint to me.
[Don Harlow notes: However, note that in <TEotW: 5, 65, Winternight>
it is mentioned that Tam has a copy of _The Travels of Jain
Farstrider_ (sic!) on his bookshelf.]
<TSR: 54, 913, Into the Palace, 633> (last para of chapter)
"If only Egwene had not run into any trouble, they might make
it out of here [the Panarch's Palace] safely after all."
- It should be Elayne instead of Egwene.
Erica Sadun:
In TDR, in the beginning at-camp scene, Perrin tells Min that
he loves her like a sister--and that he has no sisters of his
own. In TSR, his two sisters and his brother are killed.
<TDR: 6, 99, The Hunt Begins, 63> and <TSR: 29, 466, Homecoming, 333>
In TFOH, on the Cover, we are told that "FLAIDA" (sic) is now
Amyrlin.
Morgan Donald Scott
Ba'alzamon's goals: <TGH: 47, 665, The Grave Is No Bar To My Call>
"But this time I will destroy you to your very soul, destroy you
utterly and forever." Maybe he forgot <TGH: 41, 588, Disagreements>
"Fool, you will destroy yourself!" where he stopped Rand from
burning himself out. Ba'alzamon is either forgetful, confused, or
trying to appear so.
Glossary entries, "Wheel of Time" : The Pattern of an Age is slightly
different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to
greater change, but each time it is the same Age.
Notice that last phrase "but each time it is the same Age" appears
in TGH, but is gone in TDR. Did Jordan change his mind? Did he realize
he had to change something? What makes this Third Age special? Perhaps
this is the only one the DO thought up the taint on Saidin. Kind of
for the Prince of Darkness, since he's had a million chances.
Arthur Bernard Byrne
<TEotW: 31, 455, Play for Your Supper>
"I don't know what you're running from," he had said with an anxious
frown, "and I don't want to. You understand? My family." Abruptly the
farmer had dug two long scarves out of his coat pocket and pushed the
tangle of wool at them. "It's not much, but here. Belong to my boys.
They have others. You don't know me, understand? It's hard times."
<TEotW: 33, 495, The Dark Waits>
"If I was a good man," Mull said, "I'd offer a couple of lads soaked
to the skin a place to dry out and get warm in front of my fire. But
it's hard times, and strangers.... I don't know what you're running
from, and I don't want to. You understand? My family." Suddenly he
pulled two long, woolen scarves, dark and thick, out of his coat
pocket. "It's not much, but here. Belong to my boys. They have others.
You don't know me, understand? It's hard times."
[WHILE THIS IS STILL A CONTESTED ERROR, IT WILL REMAIN IN THE FAQ.
I THINK IT WAS A CUT/COPY/PASTE GOOF--Erica]
Courtenay Footman
A typographical error <TSR: 33, 539, A New Weave in the Pattern, 377>
Perrin calls Tam al'Thor "Master al'Vere"; Master al'Vere being
miles away at that time.
Did something very strange happened between 10 and 20 years ago.
In tGH, <pg 49, trade-paper edition, "Summoned"> the Amyrlin says
to Morraine "I am the fifth in a row raised to the Amyrlin Seat from
the Blue." Two pages earlier, we learn that Siuan Sanche has been
Amyrlin for ten years.
In tFoH, <pg 214>, Morraine says to Egwene: "In a few months it will
be twenty-one years since we began the search for the Dragon Reborn.
Sieren Vayu was raised to Amyrlin shortly after, a Gray with more
than a touch of Red in her." (Note btw, that this completely settles the
debated question of how old Rand is.)
Were there really SEVEN different Amyrlins in the space of a dozen
years? (The Blue who held the seat when Rand was born, Vayu, and
then the five Blues who ended with Siuan Sanche.) Or is this just
a Jordan mistake?
George D. Phillies:
There are no dots in the Aes Sedai yin/yang symbol. "A perhaps-
serious error of the original seal-builders: the correct
yin-yang symbol has a splotch a white in the black, and vice versa.
Jordan may have forgotten this. On the other hand, the world going
downhill because the female Aes Sedai channel large amounts of pure
female aspect of the Force, and without knowing it traces of the
tainted male aspect of the Force, is perhaps amusing."
Amish S. Dave
<TGH: 7, 102, Blood Calls Blood>
"How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not
necessary with the Horn gone, and yet...."
She is referring to Mat: they are all in Fal Dara, several weeks after
finding the Horn at the Eye of the World. How did she know at this
point that Mat and the Horn are linked??? She seems at the same time
to be planning for Rand to take the Horn to Illian, and use it himself.
Is this a Jordan mis-step, or is Moiraine more cunning that I thought?
Dash Wendrzyk:
Hey, what's the scoop with Shadowman steel? First, Thom Merrilin runs
into a fade and it left him "a little present of a stiff leg."
Then after the fight where the Aiel come to the rescue of the girls:
(TDR, "Threads in the Pattern, 382)
"Shadowman steel kills," Avienda said, "it does not wound." The
older man looked at her, a slight suprise in his eyes - Egwene
decided, like Lan, for this man that flicker of the eyelids was the
equilavent of another man's open astonishment - and Avienda said,
"They know little of some things, Rhuarc."
Finally, Rand's thought while fighting a fade:
(TSR, "The Stone Stands", 132)
That black metal could make wounds that festered, almost as hard to
heal as the one that ached in his side now.
or there something that I'm missing, like it just kills Aiel, or does
this qualify as a Jordan mis-step?
0.5.............................WHO IS KATHLEEN? WHY IS JOCELYN NOT KATHLEEN?
"Kathleen is my mother, the owner of the account that I _used_
(note the past tense) to post from ! Yes! The reason why I have taken so long
to reply to mail is that I've been off-line while moving to college, and now I
have my very own e-mail address. From now on, no more silly .sig! No more
comments directed to my mother! It'll just be: jocelyng@leland.stanford.edu!
Maybe it should be in the FAQ... Maybe I have delusions of grandeur...
Oh well, it takes my mind off of waiting for TFoH!" -- Jocelyn
0.6......................................................BABY, YOU'RE THE TOPS!
<from r.a.sf.w, Laura Burchard gives us stats on the top 10 jordan posters.>
from a survey of about 260 jordan posts, the top ten contributers are:
10. (tie) Jacob C. Kesinger, Morgan Donald Scott, Steven Meyers (5 each)
9. Pam Korda (6 posts)
8. Roy Navarre (7 posts)
7. Hank Lee (8 posts)
6. Seana Hillyard (10 posts)
5. Geoffrey A. Wiseman (12)
4. Don Harlow (15)
3. Judy G. (16)
2. Tony Ivan Zbaraschack (24)
AND, WITH A WHOPPING FIFTY POSTS.........
1. John Novak!!!!!!!!
(hmmm, could this be when he had all those
double posts? if not, maybe we shoud have a r.a.sf.w.john.novak :)
*******************************
======================USEFUL INFORMATION (SHORT ANSWERS)======================
1.1 WHY DO WE THINK THAT LTT = BEIDOMON
Who was Beidomon? Consensus: Lews Therin or Bayle Domon
Dissenting Opinion: 'NO WAY a consensus. Quite a few people -me
among them- think that he is either dead or one of the male
forsaken. Why should Lews Therin have needed/had another name?'
H. Poso
Supporting Facts:
From the Prolog: Dragon is he who brought the shadow;
Guilt; Because the Dragon's blood is necessary to reimprison the DO.
<TEotW: 4, 51, The Gleeman>
"I will tell you of the end of the Age of Legends, of the Dragon,
and of his attempt to free the Dark One into the world of men."
1.2 WHY DO WE THINK THAT THOM MAY HAVE FATHERED ELAYNE AND/OR GAWYN
Elayne denies that Galad is her brother. Thom was around at the
right time. Thom clearly had something to do with Taringail's
disappearance. Thom was in love with Morgase. Elayne's flirting
with Thom as a father figure in TFOH.
1.3 WHY DO WE THINK THAT THOM WILL MARRY MOIRAINE AND THAT SHE'S NOT DEAD
Moiraine says she knows the face of the man she will marry. After
going through the Aelf/Eelf ter'angreal, which only answers personal
questions, she immediately tells Thom that he will live through
the next set of adventures. Thom keeps referring to Moiraine as
a good looking woman with more and more sincerity as time progresses
and discovers he no longer loves Morgase. Moiraine probably isn't
dead. Egwene's vision <tfoh, ??, 214, ??>
"Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small
blue stone that now dangled on Moraine's forehead."
General consensus? Neither Lanfear nor Moiraine is dead. They
are both in Aelfland. They each get three wishes too.
However, Lan >did< feel her bond break.
1.4 WHAT WAS UP WITH GAWYN DURING THE COUP
Perhaps he was involuntarily bonded to a Black or to a Forsaken.
His eyes were glazed and he was not necessarily in control of himself.
Alviarin says that "Gawyn is under control" even though Morgase's
stepson (Galad) is not.
1.5 WHAT IS THE TAMYRLIN
Probably the male equivalent of the Amyrlin. The Tamyrlin had a ring
just the Amyrlin has a seat. From <TEotW, Prologue, xi, Dragonmount>:
Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once
you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of
Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine
Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! [...]
However John Novak suggests it may be the uncorrupted form of Amyrlin.
1.6 WHO WILL MARRY MAT?
Daughter of the Nine Moons indicates the heir to the throne of the
Seanchan. This may be Berelain or the second daughter of the
Empress who is mentioned in the middle of TGH by the high lord in
Falme.
1.7 WHY DO WE THINK THAT LOGAIN WILL PULL THE SWORD/BECOME UNGENTLED?
Why not. He's annoying enough as it is right now. Might as
well make him a key player.
1.8 WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT MIN'S FAMILY
Nothing. She's from Baerlon and that's where things stop.
1.9 WHAT DOES MAT BEING FREE OF THE ONE POWER MEAN?
His foxhead amulet prevents direct access to saidar/saidin on him
although not indirect results of saidar/saidin (such as the
thunderbolt from the end of TFOH).
1.10 WHO IS SUSA?
We don't know. Only that she 'tamed Jai(m/n) Farstrider'. Perhaps
Susa = Laras? "She was at one point a wild young thing...and she
seems like she was someone important at one point." [Judy G.]
1.11 WHERE DO BABY MYRDDRAAL COME FROM?
Throwbacks from trolloc parents. One assumes their tiny little
baby diapers fail to wave in the wind.
1.12 WHY ISN'T ELAIDA BLACK?
<TSR: 1, 38, Seeds of Shadow, 29-30>
"Whatever Siuan was up to, she had to be stopped. Turmoil and chaos
multiplied on every side. The Dark One was sure to break free--
the very thought made Elaida shiver and wrap her shawl around her
more tightly--and the Tower had to be aloof from mundane struggles
to face that. The Tower had to be free to pull the strings to make
the nations stand together, free of the troubles Rand al'Thor would
bring. Somehow, he had to be stopped from destroying Andor. [since
Andor, and its royalty, are the key to defeating the DO.]"
<TEotW: 40, 606, The Web Tightens> : Elaida doesn't like Rats.
<tFoH, prologue, ??, ??> : Elaida is pretty clearly a dupe.
1.13 WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT KARI AL'THOR
Not much. According to Moiraine, she was from Caemlyn.
<tGH, 8, 124, The Dragon Reborn> Makes you wonder if Tam was the Two
Rivers speach Morgase heard when she was young...
1.14 WHY IS ELDRENE'S VEIL PROMINENT ON THE MAP? WHO WAS EGWENE?
Maybe a seal is hidden there? Maybe treasure? Treasure in
the Mountains of the Mists are widely rumored which is why
Faile was going to search there and why Luc stated he was
in the vicinity.
It is generally believed that Egwene is the reincarnation of
Eldrene which explains
1. Why Mat is so fond of her (several people remark on it)
even though he is going to marry the daughter of the nine
moons (probably Berelain)
2. Why she has memories of the old tongue, has lots of
one-power potential and comes from two rivers...<271 in tEotW>
3. Why she is so familiar with the female kick-ass sa'angreal.
<tSR, 11, What Lies Hidden, 147>
1.15 HOW DO NAMES IN THE TWO RIVERS WORK?
The standard forms for Manatheren names were alXY or ayXX which meant
strictly son of and daughter of. alThor is son of Thor. (Very norse, eh?)
ayBara is daughter of Bara. Several tworiversians have names that harken
back to Aemon's day.
Mat : Cawthorn == alCaar alThorin
Tam : alThor == alThorin
others include alCaar, ayEllen, alVere, alMeara etc.
