Santoro: What would you like to walk out of here with?
Moore: Basically, straight shoot-from-the-hip answers regarding the status of
the Apple ][. We don't want to be subjected to the limitations of nondisclosure
statements and the like because we have an obligation to our users. We'd also
like to know what the Apple plans are for future and new Apple ][ users. We
aren't here to prosecute or to be cross examined, we just want straight and
honest answers.
Santoro: New Apple ][ Users or new Apple ][ Computers?
Moore: New Apple ][ Users!
Santoro: We're not coming out with a new Apple ][ cpu.
{Being evasive here and dodging the question!}
Moore: That doesn't relate to new Apple ][ users, but is there a specific
reason that Apple has for not releasing a new ][ cpu?
Santoro: We just can't rationalize it. This is a business decision that was
reached at a corporate level far above our heads here! It's been termed as a
high risk. Another Apple ][ would send a wrong message to consumers. We don't
want them to think that we have two platforms and it's obvious that Apple
supports the Macintosh. {Another of those critical statements!}
Moore: Let me guess. The office of the Apple CEO?
Lunatic: Is it true that there was a prototype of a new Apple ][ that was
going to be released?
Santoro: I won't deny it! {Quickly and nervously shifted, then dodged the
original again!} We get tons of letters from people that have had wonderful
experiences with their Apple ]['s from a variety of sources. However, last
month we sold 7 ][e's and 7 ][gs's nationwide. That's 14 Apple ]['s across
the country. {14 Apple ]['s sold without a lick of advertisement.. not bad!}
Diaz: We sold 20 used Apple ][ systems last month alone!
Santoro: Yea, USED Apple ]['s. You haven't seen an Apple ][e or ][gs in a
dealership for a long time. This is a dealership decision. Apple can't
dictate to the dealerships what they should keep in stock. People were
buying Macs and weren't buying ][gs's. Also, it's expensive for us to make
them. We do want to keep the ][gs viable and we want to continue building
the bridge between the ][gs and the Mac. {Remember this statement later!}
Moore: There's an easy explanation for that. 18 months after the gs was
released, dealerships were telling people that Apple wasn't making them
anymore and that the Apple ][ had been discontinued.
Santoro: We can't tell dealerships what to say either!
Kohn: If Apple had a certain criteria that dealerships had to abide by,
like requiring them to have all of the Apple cpu line on display, these
false rumors wouldn't manifest themselves.
Santoro: I'll be the first to admit that the company hasn't done the best
job of policing each and every dealership. {Spoken with an air of sarcasm!}
Livingston: A lot of things happened back in '86-'87 that may have been
debatable, but this is '92 and almost '93 and we have to think of the future
of the company.
Moore: Yes, and we are obligated to think of the future of this huge number
of people that own Apple ]['s, who firmly believe Apple Computer Inc is
giving them the proverbial shaft.
Kaupp: Are these people going to buy new Apple ]['s?
Moore: I won't ask you to validate that question. They already own Apple ]['s.
Many of them more than one system. What the existing ][ user base wants is a
solid show of support by Apple, be it in the form of a new cpu or a guy on tv
with an Apple ][ as his choice for a home computer system.
Lunatic: A primary question that I have is, Apple has repeatedly professed
support for the Apple ][. If Apple Inc is still supporting it, why can't users
get technical support and service from the Apple dealerships?
Santoro: What is support? What support are you looking for?
Moore: A user takes his ][ into a dealership to have it serviced and the
service personel dosen't recognize the machine. They want to know if the ][gs
is a 286 or 386 compatible.
Santoro: So you're looking for service?
Moore: We're looking for support, from Apple, for the Apple ][!
Garvey: I'm in a good position to elaborate more on this because I do it for
a living. Most people don't care about servicing, maintenance and the like,
they depend on me to do it for them. {Mike Garvey perpetually assumes the
role of the service department at the dealerships at this point.}
I must have a source from which to accomodate these things. {Reference to
service and maintenance.} We're currently in what you may refer to as the
third generation of computer users. The first consisted of semi-power users.
The hackers and the like. The next was the class that used computers as a
learning device and now, the average user has their computer as a tool. They
use it just as if it were a hammer or a screwdriver.
Kohn: What we need is somewhere, or someone, to turn to for sales, service and
support. Users need a definative response when repairs to their systems are
necessary. User Groups aren't the answer because most aren't qualified to
provide service and/or repairs.
Diaz: At AllTech we're encountering even more of a problem. We have become one
of the places to find Apple ][ stuff, but the dealers don't want to support us.
They get paranoid when they look at their invoices and see all of the purchases
made by AllTech Electronics. They ask us if we're re-selling things and they're
afraid that Apple Inc will cut them off.
Garvey: There's a missing link between Apple and the end users that dealerships
used to fill that isn't being filled anymore.
Santoro: Again you have to put yourselves in the shoes of the other person.
Dealerships have to maintain a margin of profit. They want to sell the hottest
computer and the Apple ][ isn't it. I've made a proposal that would fall under
the PowerBook service type format but it has to be approved at a higher level.
Moore: There are two ends of the spectrum here. Over the years, the end user
has come to look at the "Authorized Apple Dealership" as the extension of
Apple Inc and this was by Apple's own design. When an end user wanted
information about his computer, or wanted to buy a machine or parts, or
get service and he contacted Apple Inc, he was very gruffly told to go see
his local authorized Apple Dealership. Now he takes his system to this
dealership and they haven't the slightest idea as to what the machine is.
The user is getting aggravated because his system has been in the shop for
a week while the highly trained service department tries to determine if
the problem with the ][gs is that it dosen't have an RLL/IDE card in it or
they can't locate a chip that has a *.86 suffix. Meanwhile the user comes
back muttering "What ta hell kind of company is this?"
Livinsgton: No, he comes back and thinks that the planet has changed on him.
Things aren't the same as they used to be.
Moore: Nope! Now he finally gets his system back, fixed or unfixed and he's
muttering to himself. He places an ad in the paper to sell his system and when
that's done he buys a DOS machine because he can get support, buy software or
have that system serviced anywhere.
Santoro: He comes back and thinks that this dealer dosen't do what he used to
do and that's absolutely true. We want to keep our Apple ][ customers with the
hopes that they continue to buy Apple machines. Dealerships don't want to spend
$500 a day for Apple ][ technical training for the 2 or 3 Apple ][ calls he's
going to get in a month. So what's the most efficient way for Apple to deal
with this problem?
Moore: That's easy, via the user group.
Livingston: We already do that. When someone calls up for service, we give
them the name of the nearest dealership and also the name of the nearest user
group.
Garvey: What Ernie is driving at is an extension of something that I wanted to
get into a little bit later, but the reality of this is that the user cannot
rely upon service from the dealerships. Apple has always sent their products to
dealerships for distribution and now their also being sent to super stores and
resellers. I look at the Sears catalog and I don't see any Apple ][ products
there. Also, how do I get service for my system?
Santoro: We've just produced a new catalog that has all of the Apple products
in it, except for the cpu's, and they can be purchased directly from us.
Moore: The catalog has Mac cpu's displayed in it and there's one page at the
back of it with Apple ][ peripherals only.
Garvey: Does this means that I can call up Apple, give them my resellers
license number and pick up my purchase?
Kohn: Why can't Apple ][ cpu's be distributed by these super stores along
with the Powerbooks and etc?
Apple: Everyone views the Apple ][ as a single market machine. Dealerships
regard it as strictly a K-12 computer. {Sound like brain washing?}
Moore: The K-12 crew dosen't even know what to do with their cpu's when they
malfunction. They call ComputerLand and get the same story. By the way, how
many Apple ]['s does Apple Inc recognize as being the computer of choice in
the end users home?
APPLE: Actually it's a legal problem regarding contractual agreements with
PowerBooks where the stores cannot do mail orders of Apple products. The big
legal question was that if we went mail order with our cpu's, would that
violate the contractual agreements with these retail outlets? {Evasive...eh!}
Kaaup: Wait! I thought we were talking about why the Apple ][ cpu wasn't in
the catalog? We don't want to sell people ]['s, we want to take the installed
base of ][ users and support them. {Critical statement there!}
Garvey: Along these lines of damage control, the dealership channal isn't working. So where do people have to turn? Online services, user groups? What I'd propose is to empower user groups as the go between to resell Apple parts and peripherals!
Moore: Here's a case in point example. I received a call from an individual that wanted to upgrade from an Apple ][e to a ][gs. Please bear in mind that he did *NOT* want a Mac. I could not give him an answer!
Apple: How would we go about giving user groups authority to resell cpu's and peripherals? Would we give user groups full dealer contracts? We'd have to make certain that everyone was trained and certified. Then we'd have to charge them the $5,000 to $10,000 startup fee required for dealerships.
BAAUG: It's hard to envision user groups selling cpu's, not so much peripherals though. Apple could require that dealerships purchase ][ cpu's on order!
Livingston: What do you want now, sales or support?
Moore: What...??? We want both sales AND support! You mention making certain
that if user groups were given resell capability, they would have to be
certified and trained. Take me to any ComputerLand and show me a certified and
trained Apple ][ individual...! As for startup fees, why? The user group would
order cpu's directly from Apple as needed and pay for them in advance.
Santoro: The company, for right or for wrong, has made a decision to not pursue a marketing scheme for selling the Apple ][! {There we go again!}
Moore: That's what I can't understand. If Apple put the ][gs on tv and showed
people it's capabilities, they would sell tons of them. For the life of me I
don't understand it. There's this huge potential Apple ][ user base eager for
something like the ][gs, and Apple is simply ignoring this magnificent market
and telling them we don't want to sell you an Apple ][ we want to sell you a
Macintosh!
Santoro: I know exactly what you're talking about and going mail order is what
has been proposed. Our competitive advantage is the Macintosh ease of use.
We've taken that and expanded it and that's why Apple continues to grow. You
have to remember now that the gui was reverse engineered and ported over to the
gs! {This is the head of the Apple ][ team talking here remember!}
Moore: The gui reverse engineered from the Mac to the gs... NOT!
Santoro: We just don't want to go after the competition with a 6502 or 816 vs
a 386 or 486. We want to take the Mac, with a large supplier like Motorola and
continue to grow. The choice was made and this was the business decision.
{Again, this is the head of the ][ Continued Engineering Group speaking!}
Moore: Wait! We're getting blown out of proportion here. I'm not making
reference to 6502 or 65816 technology vs Mac technology. That's a mismatch.
If you compare Mac technology to Cray technology then you'd have a case for
discontinuing the Mac. What I'm making reference to is the attitude that Apple
has taken toward the Apple ][. Apple has given the ][ user a {loud hand clap}
slap in the face instead of extending a corporate hand and telling them,
"We'll help you over the bridge!"
Santoro: I'll have to disagree with you on that. Do you know how many engineers
were put on the Hypercard GS project? There were 20 to 50 engineers on that
project over the life of it. It took three years to complete it and how many
copies were sold? A few thousand at most. System 6 was a parallel project and
cost us just as much. We've made the superdrive card, the ethernet card and the
video overlay card, all to show the Apple ][ users that we still support them.
{Hypercard was given away free with Macs and remains a lousy GS program. It
also was a direct competitor with HyperStudio which was already established!}
Kohn: Somethings wrong here and users are really confused. Apple is making all
of these wonderful cards and peripherals, but they aren't showing it to anyone.
No one knows that they exist. You need to tell people what you're doing and why
you're doing it.
Santoro: That's a point well taken. OK, let me summarize this. What you deem
as ongoing support from Apple is 3 things.
1... A source for cards and peripherals etc should my system break down.
2... Get me some software. Let me walk into Egghead and see Apple ][
software.
3... Service my program.
Given these things, let people know about them.
Moore: Number 4, actively promote and market items 1,2, and 3.
Santoro: Here's what we've done on each of these items. We have a new Apple ][
software newsletter. We're doing the next version at this very moment.
Previously it was available only through user groups, but now we're going to
take an ad out in A+/inCider and make it available to everyone, free of charge.
No sales are involved in this we're giving developers a free plug. We're
spending all this money just for the sake of letting Apple ][ users know we're
still behind them.
Moore: Ah ha..! heh, how goes Mac third party development these days? Actually
John, that's exactly what we don't want. If Apple dosen't make money off of
the ][, it only serves to act as nails in the coffin and hasten the systems
demise.
Santoro: Let me just finish telling you what we're doing. Service. Service is
a big problem. You can't get it. All I can do is propose a PowerBook type of
program. Especially for schools because they have 75% of all the Apple ]['s
sold. Here's what I'll propose. A mail order service for Apple ]['s. You put
your system in a box and sent it to Apple. Three days later you have your
system back. We want to make peripherals available to the direct public.
If we can manage to break even then that will make the company happy.
Moore: If you do this it's definately a step in the right direction.
Santoro: Not *if*, we're doing it!
Kohn: From the viewpoint of A+/inCider, you'll probably be able to get the
space for free. What about Apple dealers? Can the dealer be sent something so
that if a user brings his system in to them and they can send it to Apple?
They can also give a copy of the catalog to people that are interested.
Livingston: Yes, the catalog is working. We only sent about a million copies
out and we've had very good response so far. People are anxious to get them.
Santoro: About 8 million Apple ]['s have been sold since 1977. Approximately
25% of those are in people's homes. So we now have an installed base of roughly
2 million Apple ][ users and 11 million Mac users that we want to get the
catalog to.
Garvey: Could you take that to the next step and have a second printing?
Apple: {In unison} YES, yes yes!
Kauup: We most assuredly will. We want the dealers espicially to have them in
stock. It would make their customers happy and also benefit them if they don't
have to maintain low profit additional inventory stock. They want to sell Macs.
Lunatic: What I'd like to see would be for dealers to have a bunch of cards
with an 800 number on it to give to Apple ][ people. When the user calls, he'd
be able to get three things immediately. The software guide, the catalog and
the Apple ][ guide, all from that one number. Then his call for service or
maintenance would be handled.
Moore: John, you may know this. Rye, Ray, you may not. There's one primary
reason for the Apple ][ enduring as long as it has. Throughout the history of
Apple, it's been know as the friendly company. The company that was willing to
touch base with the little people while IBM was the beast or the orge of the
industry. IBM's belonged in the subterrain of huge corporations and were
servers etc. Believe what you will, if Apple loses this image and tries to
compete nose to nose with IBM in the corporate level, it will signal the end
of Apple Inc as the home computer specialist. The current trend places Apple
in the "Novation" mode if you know what I mean.
Santoro: Well your point is well taken but I don't think you'll see IBM taking
in user group members for the PC Jr and telling them about how they're going to
continue support. I don't think you'll see Ford have a user group meeting about
1977 Ford Fairlane buyers. {PC Jr's run DOS 5.0 too!}
Moore: An Apple ][gs is not a Ford Fairlane and cannot be compared to one.
Don't underestimate IBM. They've already stated that they intend to market the
home computist because there's a lot of "Dead Soldiers" on the field and that
statement is aimed directly at the Apple ][ users and educators that Apple Inc
has cast aside already. These people aren't buying Macs, they're switching
platforms.
Diaz: What I trying to drive at, is there are other people out there in the
market, affilliated with user groups or not, that would like to do things such
as sell video overlay cards or super drives and the like.
APPLE: There are two great expirements with the catalog. One is the
availability of cpu's in the catalog. Great experiment number two is third
party products in the catalog. There's a small, and very select few, third
party items in there.
Diaz: Apple did this third party thing with the Apple3 long ago also. The same
identical thing and they sold everything with THEIR label on it. Then they
discontinued the cpu. People want to look at the catalog and buy things. The
dealerships don't want to be bothered with the Apple ][ or any of its
peripherals. They would be happy to give ][ users an 800 number,a catalog and
get them out of their stores. However, since I work in the mail order business,
I know that the people who *answer* at the 800 number will not be able to give
responses to technical questions about these items. Since the dealerships or
superstore clerks can't do it either, this leaves the user groups as the next
level for handling this task. We have a dealer that willing to sell us System6
and SCSI cards, but they get paranoid that someone here will step on them!
Garvey: That's the exact position that I'm in on the PC/Mac side of things.
It's still a viable business and there's still a living that can be earned by
reselling parts and providing service, maintenance, recommendations and
consultation to end users; and then purchasing and installing these things.
In the user group environment, they are more visable.
Moore: OK, there's another issue that I'm concerned about. I'm not Apple
bashing and I don't want to appear as a critic, but there is another large
cross section of users that think the Apple front office is infested with
morons and dimwits.
APPLE: Yea Ernie, go ahead and tell us what you really think of us. {Jovial
atmosphere!}
Moore: What these users are concerned about is the number of cpu's that Apple
releases, praises, then abandons. Count the number of Macs over the past two
or three years that are no longer in production.
Diaz: That's true. When someone buys a Mac, in the next month or two another
is released and their system is obsolete.
Garvey: Are you getting negative feedback on the amount of new cpu's being
introduced? I mean like the not so old cx's and ci's are all obsolete now.
Santoro: I don't think there's a company on the face of the planet that has
gone further out of the way to insure compatability. We haven't received any
feedback to that effect. {Seems evasive again eh!}
Moore: Perhaps you haven't, believe me it exists and in appreciable quantity!
Kaaup: I'm in the best position to receive feedback like that, and the greatest
issue at hand now is system software licensing. All of the feedback that I've
received about products is "Keep Pushing!"
Garvey: With the Apple ][, when did you start to get that kind of production
feedback... '86-'87?
Santoro: The greatest dissent that we've received is from the man on the street
with a family and he wants to get his kids into the computer age. He asks his
kids what kind of computer they use in school and hears "Apple ][." Next he
goes to the dealer and asks for the best Apple ][ available. He gets a ][gs,
takes it home, then he discovers that there's a limited software base because
developers that are into that intricate type of programming are doing it for
the Mac.
{Something's wrong with that scenario. The man goes to the dealer and the dealer isn't selling Apple ]['s at all... What's gone awry with that story?}
Garvey: I have at home a ][e, ][gs, MAc+ and a Mac SE. Using the SE is really
digressing!
Santoro: I have to attend another meeting. Are there any final questions that
you'd like to ask?
Moore: There is one question that I have. If Apple isn't going to market or
promote the Apple ][, why can't it be opted out to a third party developer or
inagurated into an affiliate company ala Claris?
Santoro: That's a point well taken. This has already been proposed to Scully
himself and the answer was that we don't want to let the Apple logo out of the
company!
Moore: There has never been a Macintosh made with the name Apple associated
with it!
Santoro: {Laughing} That's not a point of argument. {Entire room laughs}
Keltner: We're producing some archivial chronicles and I was wondering if we
could have access to the original ][gs commercials? They were very impresive.
Santoro: I don't know where they are but if you find them and get them
digitized, you're welcome to do it.
BAAUG: I think they're on Quicktime!
Santoro: In closing, the demand is so low right now for the ][gs, that it's
going to be dropped from the price list very soon. The ][e is fine and will be
continued.
{There's a lot of mumbling throughout the room}
Lunatic: After System 6.0.1 and the Ethernet Card, will that be the last that
we'll see from Apple for the gs and how long will it be before it's taken off
of the price list?
Santoro: Probably before the end of the year. The Apple ][ Continued
Engineering Group is going to remain intact through the next fiscal year and
that's about a year from now as the fiscal year just started. Beyond that is
up to the company. I don't see any hardware beyond the Ethernet card.
Garvey: Will there be any revisions to the Ethernet card because in reality,
it's an EtherTalk card?
Santoro: We're looking at putting TCIP on it because we see the text based ][e's and ][c's in schools as being perfect for going into the Internet!
{After insignificant further chatter, the meeting ended!}
