Black Box 4

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ Black Box 4 / BlackBox.cdr / textinfo / zipcis.arj / ZIP.LOG

Wrap

Text File | 1989-02-26 | 47.4 KB | 926 lines

The following is an unedited log of the Compuserv discussion regarding the new ZIP file archiver/zipper! I called customer support and got their permission to upload this to BBSs... I kept this unedited so you dont miss anything... messages not prefixed by other users are mine... /us is a list of current users talking... enjoy... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (2,Irv) Hi Phil, nice to see you on CIS, almost impossible to reach you by phone. (2,Dale W.) Joe--as we discussed, I'll be in CO 3 in case anyone needs to chat. (2,Sysop) Thanks, Dale. to gio (2,Sysop) Irv, do you have a CP/M modem program with chat mode? ga (2,Irv) No, running TAPCIS. (2,Sysop) Oh. No, I was asking if you had one in your archives ... Is there a specific reason that the PKZIP conference was set up in the Zenith forum (2,Sysop) some folks here were asking about one. ga (2,Irv) TAPCIS has the finest chat mode I've yet seen, and by some margin (2,Irv) at that! (My opinion.) Have you ever seen the Chat mode of Procomm Plus... /who 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv /user 2 User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 42 73775,1127 DCI 2 steve b .. 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren Jenkins 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 58 72160,763 CGL 2 Bill L. 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve Souza 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv (2,Mark.Y) I have both Procomm Plus & TAPCIS, and I still prefer ... (2,Mark.Y) Procomm Plus's chat mode. (2,Sysop) Okay: It's that time. (2,Steve Souza) 'lo all (2,Irv) Yes, I have ProComm Plus, Crosstalk, ProYAMM, Telix, PereLine, etc. and (2,Irv) none compare with TAPCIS for convenience on CHAT mode, my opinion. (2,Sysop) Let me start things off ... (2,Sysop) Welcome to the Zenith Users' Forum and ... (2,Sysop) This public conference with Phil Katz of PKWare ... (2,Sysop) About ZIP and PKWare's ZIP products. ... (2,Sysop) The Zenith Users' Forum is their CompuServe ... (2,Sysop) home and distribution point ... (2,Sysop) Even if you don't own a Zenith computer ... (2,Sysop) You (and anyone else) can use this Forum at any time ... (2,Sysop) As a full member, entitled to anything here. ... (2,Sysop) I don't want to take up your time unnecessarily ... (2,Sysop) So I'll make these opening comments brief. ... (2,Sysop) My name is Joseph Katz and I'm the Sysop. ... (2,Sysop) Let's get the Real BIG Question answered first: ... (2,Sysop) No, Phil and I are not related ... (2,Sysop) So far as either of us know. ... (2,Sysop) I'll serve as moderator for this conference. ... (2,Sysop) Here's the format we'll use: ... (2,Sysop) First, Phil will make a brief opening statement ... (2,Sysop) Then, he'll answer questions from you. ... (2,Sysop) And we'll all use the following protocol: ... (2,Sysop) In a moment I'll ask anyone who has a question ... (2,Sysop) To type a single question mark at the beginning of a line ... (2,Sysop) ? (2,Sysop) I'll note the names and job numbers of the people who do that ... (2,Sysop) and establish a queue. ... (2,Sysop) I'll try my best to call on each person in turn. ... (2,Sysop) If your question has been answered fully ... (2,Sysop) by the time your turn comes ... (2,Sysop) and you don't have another question ready then ... (2,Sysop) please type "PASS" so I can go on to the next person quickly. (2,Sysop) We'll have to limit each person ... (2,Sysop) To ONE question at a turn. ... (2,Sysop) When I reach the end of my list ... (2,Sysop) We can take additional questions ... (2,Sysop) And second turns. ... (2,Sysop) There's no time limit for this conference ... (2,Sysop) We can go until Phil or you get tired. ... (2,Sysop) I'll leave an edited transcript of this Conference ... (2,Sysop) in LIB 0 ("New Files") here ... (2,Sysop) in a few days, and anyone can download it. ... (2,Sysop) After about 30 days, the transcript will be moved ... (2,Sysop) to LIB 1 ("Help & Information") here. ... (2,Sysop) If you have questions after this conference is over ... (2,Sysop) You can leave messages to Phil here in the Forum. ... (2,Sysop) He checks for messages here frequently. ... (2,Sysop) Phil asks that you leave him messages here ... (2,Sysop) instead of by EasyPlex. ... (2,Sysop) And, yes, this Forum does allow private messages. ... (2,Sysop) Here are some ground rules for this conference: (2,Sysop) 1/ Ask a real instead of an argumentative or rhetorical question ... (2,Sysop) 2/ Make your question brief and to the point ... (2,Sysop) 3/ Make the lines no longer than about 60 characters ... (2,Sysop) 4/ When you are finished with the question, type "GA" at the end. ... (2,Sysop) Please type a question mark now if you want a turn at asking a question. GA ? /users 2 User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 42 73775,1127 DCI 2 steve b .. 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren J 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 55 72411,3272 ALL 2 Chris W. 58 72160,763 CGL 2 Bill L. 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve Souza 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv 88 74225,752 LOM 2 roger j 91 75170,14 DUK 2 Kelly/2ZIP 95 72757,1340 MRU 2 Raymond L. List 97 73077,1407 MLL 2 douglas hay (2,Sysop) Go ahead, Bob (2,Sysop) Whoops Just wanted to confirm some information (2,Sysop) Sorry ... go ahead (2,Sysop) Phil, take over. (2,Phil Katz) Ok. I wanted to say thanks to Joe for inviting ... (2,Phil Katz) me for this conference tonight, and also for hosting ... (2,Phil Katz) PKWARE in the Zenith forum for support of the ... (2,Phil Katz) PKZIP software and related programs. I think ... (2,Phil Katz) with that said, I'm ready to start. ga (2,Sysop) It's your turn --> Bob (2,Sysop) Bob okay... just wanted to confirm some info (2,Steve Souza) ? the main thing was the upgrade policy from previous versions of PKARc.... many users in the Chicagpo area are objecting to sysops converting to zip because they feel they are being forced to go to pkzip and to register the product I wanted to make sure that there is no extra registration for users registere above 3.5 of Pkarc... ga (2,Phil Katz) That is a very good question. Our upgrade policy is ... (2,Phil Katz) this: If you had registered any version of the ... (2,Ron F.) ? (2,Phil Katz) software, and wwere sent version 3.6 or 3.61 ... (2,Phil Katz) of the software from PKWARE, then you will get the ... (2,Phil Katz) PKZIP software free of charge. If you had registered ... (2,Phil Katz) and received early versions of the software then you ... (2,Phil Katz) can get a disk and manual for $11.00 plus $3.50 for ... (2,Phil Katz) shipping and handling. If you had sent a partial ... (2,Phil Katz) registration in the past (such as $20) and wanted ... (2,Chris Waters) ? (2,Phil Katz) to get a disk and manual now, that amount can ... (2,Phil Katz) be deducted from the PKZIP registeration fee. ga (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Sysop) Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) ok... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) many users her in CI$ are asking about the cost... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) of the unZIP program, and if it is "really"... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) free or if it is also shareware, and therefore it also... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) has a related cost. Much of the flack that ZIP... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) is receiving is due to there not being a "free"... (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) unZIP program...ga (2,Phil Katz) Alright. Well, PKZIP/PKUNZIP is ShareWare. Now, while ... (2,Phil Katz) I think it would be great if everyone who ever used ... (2,Phil Katz) a ShareWare program registered it, practically speaking ... (2,Phil Katz) probably ten percent of the users will. Personally, ... (2,Phil Katz) I do not believe in "ransomware" where the user must pay ... (2,Marilyn) [[t(oo3~rzg7~ (2,Phil Katz) in order to get something that is fully functional. ... (2,Marilyn) ?jokw7[[_[i]f*"N~r[q[)yMt(u!th3~rt([[[xD~rw3[[g#Q%[[i][[oc[[[f*v:[v`][w3[~r[[ok[ok^R[[ (2,Phil Katz) It is and always has been the ploicy of PKWARE ... (2,Phil Katz) to release the best fully functional software that we ... (2,Phil Katz) can. I beleive that if the software offers high ... ? (2,Phil Katz) enough quality and perf performance, that users will register ... (2,Phil Katz) the software not because the HAVE to, but because ... (2,Phil Katz) they want to. ga (2,Steve (-s2-) Souza) followup ? (2,Sysop) Ron F. ga /u 2 User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 29 73477,1506 NYJ 2 JEFFREY MARTINO 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 42 73775,1127 DCI 2 steve b .. 46 71001,3014 MLW 2 brian kiehnau 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren J 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 55 72411,3272 ALL 2 Chris Waters 58 72160,763 CGL 2 Bill L. 60 71071,2477 BPC 2 JAMES MACFARLANE 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 71 76347,2310 MTC 2 Tom P 74 76064,3613 ATJ 2 Mike M. 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve (-s2-) Souza 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv 88 74225,752 LOM 2 roger j 89 72435,343 SMC 2 Ron F. 91 75170,14 DUK 2 Kelly/2ZIP 95 72757,1340 MRU 2 Ray L. 97 73077,1407 MLL 2 douglas hay 99 73437,1232 MRU 2 Steve Frank 101 73407,1376 FYB 2 Paul Baniewicz (2,Ron F.) "ZIP" program (future update), and when will version 1.0 (2,Ron F.) be released?...ga (2,Phil Katz) Ok, that brings up a good point, and a common ... (2,Phil Katz) misunderstanding of the various compression methods ... (2,Phil Katz) used in PKZIP. PKZIP has two different algorithms ... (2,Phil Katz) called SHrinking and Reducing. If no extra compression ... (2,Phil Katz) options such as "-ea2" are specified, PKZIP will use (2,Phil Katz) Shrinking. If an extra compression option is ... (2,Phil Katz) specified, PKZIP will use reducing. If you are using ... (2,Phil Katz) say "-ea4" on text files and not achieving good compression ... (2,Phil Katz) you might want to try NOT using "-ea" at all. Not using ... (2,Phil Katz) "-ea" is not the same as using "-ea2". On the second ... (2,Phil Katz) question, it's hard to say exactly when version 1.0 will ... (2,Phil Katz) be released, but I would say in one to three months. ga (2,Ron F.) thanks... (2,Sysop) Ron F. ga - (2,Sysop) -> Chris Waters (2,Sysop) Chris Waters. ga (2,Eric) w3/users (2,Chris Waters) There has been rumors about setting an... (2,Chris Waters) environmental default to use the highest... (2,Chris Waters) compression method all of the time... (2,Chris Waters) Although this would take the longest amount of time... (2,Chris Waters) compress. I don't really care all that much... ? (2,Chris Waters) about speed. Will you be implementing such... (2,Chris Waters) a default of some type in the next release? (2,Chris Waters) Sorry, first time in a CO...ga. (2,Loren J) \users co (2,Phil Katz) PKZ PKZIP will feature a configuration file in version 1.0 similar ... (2,Bill L.) ? (2,Phil Katz) to that in PKPAK. It will allow you to default ... (2,Phil Katz) many options for PKZIP, including the extra compression ... (2,Phil Katz) options. So in answer to you question, yes, it will be ... (2,Phil Katz) possible to default to any compression level you want. ga (2,Chris Waters) Thanks... (2,Chris Waters) ? (2,Sysop) Kelly/2ZIP (2,Kelly/2ZIP) A situation that seems to be happening a lot around various ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) BBS systems is that folks are trying to achieve that maximum ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) Compression possible, and are selecting -eb4 -ea4. Now, as ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) you've said, -ea4 doesn't always yield the best ASCII ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) compression. Are you thinking of a way for PKZIP to dynamically ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) "best guess" the compression method to use for optimal ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) compression? ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, it's really hard to tell which method will ... (2,Phil Katz) work best for any particular file without ... (2,Phil Katz) actually performing the compression. However ... (2,Phil Katz) many people seem interested in this, so I am ... (2,Phil Katz) considering an option for 1.0 that woul din affect ... (2,Sysop) Kelly/2ZIP - (2,Phil Katz) try Shrinking and Reducing-4 for ASCII files and use ... the method ... (2,Phil Katz) that worked the best. On the average though, I would ... (2,Phil Katz) say the Reducing-4 would work best on ASCII files, ... (2,Phil Katz) although this is highly dependent on the contents ... (2,Phil Katz) of any particular file. ga (2,Sysop) -> Marilyn -- (2,Marilyn) No question here, thanks (2,Sysop) --> Eric (2,Eric) pass (2,Sysop) --> Bob Zinn (2,Tom P) ? thanks.... next question is follow up ... to the question regarding a free unzipper... specifically, now that upgrade to pkzip is basically free to those who have already registered 3.6 etc... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? there probably will still be some... reluctance by some programmers to ship their software in .ZIP format since there is no totally free - forgive me for saying - ARCE type program that they could put on their disk with their software.... Any thought to this.. .will there be a PKUNZIP that can Only extract...! (hi loren - grin) ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, I don't want to speak for Vern, but the terms of ... (2,Phil Katz) ARCE as I understand them allow for free personal ... (2,Phil Katz) use of ARCE, but commercial or business users should ... (2,Phil Katz) contact this company in New Jersey (grin) ... (2,Phil Katz) ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) thanks... (2,Steve (-s2-) a question on the command line function of ZIP... (2,Steve (-s2-) will there be the ability (for us sysops out here)... (2,Eric) ? (2,Steve (-s2-) to put in a ZIP comment from a command line, allowing for... (2,Steve (-s2-) automated ZIPping of files, without typing in the comment... (2,Steve (-s2-) as each file(s) is (are) ZIPped...ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, this can be done with I/O redirection now. ... (2,Phil Katz) Say for example, that you put the comment you want ... (2,Phil Katz) in a file called MYCOMMNT. If you thne ran PKZIP as: (2,Phil Katz) pkzip -z zipfile <mycommnt (2,Phil Katz) PKZIP would take the comment from that file. ... (2,Phil Katz) If this is done with the DOS batch FOR command ... (2,Phil Katz) it can be done for every file in a directory. i.e.: (2,Phil Katz) for %%x in (*.zip) do pkzip -z %%x <mycommnt (2,Phil Katz) Also, there is a program that I have uploaded (2,Phil Katz) here to CIS called ZIP-KIT2.ZIP that has a program ... (2,Phil Katz) to add comments automatically. ga (2,Sysop) --> Kelly/2ZIP (2,Kelly/2ZIP) Ok, here's a question I saw on Bix the other day: If a registered... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) PKZIP user creates a self-extracting archive (.EXE), do they have... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) to pay a license fee to PKWARE to distribute it commercially? ga (2,Phil Katz) The key to your question there is commercial distribution. ... (2,Phil Katz) If an individual or general ShareWare author wants to ... (2,Phil Katz) distribute the software, all that we ask is that they ... (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Phil Katz) register their copy of the software, mainly ... (2,Phil Katz) so no viral copies are distributed etc. However, ... (2,Phil Katz) if say a company wanted to use it with commercial ... (2,Phil Katz) software, we usually would work out a one-time ... (2,Phil Katz) fee for unlimited distribution of the software ... (2,Phil Katz) this includes PKZIP/PKUNZIP if they want that ... (2,Phil Katz) instead of PKSFX etc. ga (2,Sysop) --> Eric (2,douglas hay) ? (2,Eric) [Will the capability to span disks be fully implemented in 1.0? Ga (2,Mark.Y) ? (2,Phil Katz) The ZIP file format was designed to span multiple disks, and ... (2,Phil Katz) contains fields specifically for the purpose of spanning ... (2,Phil Katz) disks. This capability will be supported in future programs ... (2,Phil Katz) from PKWARE, but they will most likely be different then ... (2,Phil Katz) the command-line PKZIP/PKUNZIP programs. ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) ok... (2,Steve (-s2-) What are the provisions for distribution of pkunzip... (2,Steve (-s2-) with User Group software library discs (for the purpose of... (2,Steve (-s2-) unZIPing only, the files that are on the disc in ZIP format)... (2,Steve (-s2-) if the UG charges only a distribution fee...ga (2,Phil Katz) That is explicitly stated in the software license screens ... (2,Phil Katz) for PKUNZIP etc. Basically, clubs and user groups are free ... (2,Phil Katz) to distribute the software as long as the distribution or ... (2,Tom P) \ust (2,Phil Katz) copying fee doesn't exceed $10 per disk. ga (2,Sysop) --> Douglas Hay (2,douglas hay) Phil, could you tell us a little bit about yourself. (2,douglas hay) Like, how old are you, ed. history, and the type of car You drive. ga (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Phil Katz) Sure. I'm a graduate of the University ... ? (2,Phil Katz) of Wisconsin Milwaukee in Computer Science,. ... (2,Phil Katz) I founded PKWARE in 1986, and have been working full-time ... (2,Phil Katz) at PKWARE for a little over one year now. I'm 26. ga (2,Sysop) --> Mark Y. (2,Mark.Y) ok... (2,Mark.Y) Phil, what are the plans for a menu interface for ZIP? GA (2,Phil Katz) PKWARE is currently developing a full-screen menu driven ... (2,Phil Katz) version of PKZIP/PKUNZIP. We are also developing versions ... (2,Phil Katz) of the software for MS-Windows, Amiga, and VAX/VMS. ... (2,Phil Katz) Other versions/platforms are currently being considered. ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) There have been questions by members (and non-members) of ASP... (2,Steve (-s2-) as to how your comments in the docs fall in line with the... (2,Steve (-s2-) general policies of ASP for shareware authors. I understand... (2,Steve (-s2-) your personal feelings as to the reality of registration, and... (2,brian kiehnau) 2 (2,Steve (-s2-) not forcing folks to register by issueing crippleware to the... (2,Steve (-s2-) market. and many of the users out here appreciate that. However... (2,Steve (-s2-) The view I have (and some of the folks who use my BBS) is that... (2,Steve (-s2-) ASP is (will be) a very good thing, someday, but not right now. ... (2,Steve (-s2-) What are your thoughts, etc.. re: ASP...ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, I have only been a member of the ASP for a relatively ... (2,Phil Katz) short period of time. The orginization of the ASP appears ... (2,Phil Katz) to be impriving however. Now that they are collecting dues ... (2,Phil Katz) hopefully it will be possible to get more done. However ... (2,Phil Katz) I haven't received any clear and coherent guidlines from the ... (2,Phil Katz) ASP as to what ShareWare authors are advised to do. Maybe ... (2,Phil Katz) it is because I haven't spent a lot of time in the ASP forum ... (2,Phil Katz) here on CIS. I certainly believe that the ASP is a good thing ... (2,Phil Katz) and has good intentions. I think being able to reach more ... (2,Phil Katz) ShareWare authors in a more organized fashion will help ... (2,Phil Katz) though. ga (2,Sysop) --> Brian Kiehnau (2,Sysop) --> Brian? (2,brian kiehnau) hello (2,Sysop) Brian, did you have a question? (2,brian kiehnau) Iam alittle Yes (2,brian kiehnau) .. (2,brian kiehnau) ... (2,brian kiehnau) Hows this work ga (2,Sysop) It's okay, Brian. Go to CO 3 if you need to practice a little ... (2,Darrell Pelan/Micro) ? (2,Sysop) Dale's there and will help, and then you can come back when you're ready. OK? (2,Sysop) --> Bob Zim (2,Doug Hageman) Good evening everybody, I'm Doug Hageman just logged on to thank Mr. Katz (2,Doug Hageman) for making my computer so much more useful. Downloaded ZIP (etc) today -.C (2,Doug Hageman) Can't believe it! Learned about tonight on TAPCIS. Thaks again-logging off. ok... question regarding interfaces to zip files... (2,douglas hay) What about ? I do a small amt of programming and had a question regarding... is there going to be any available pkgs (for a price) that would allow a programmer using Turbo C or Pascal (Pascal preferable) to read a Zip file - issue a type of call and get info back... real reason is to help users incorporate the use of zip into more and more products? ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, we have had many requests fron users that ... (2,Phil Katz) want to incorporate data compression into their ... (2,Phil Katz) programs, not necessarily any particular file (2,Phil Katz) format. PKWARE will be releasing a product which ... (2,Phil Katz) will be a library of compression routines to allow ... (2,Phil Katz) programmers to incorporate data compression in ... (2,Phil Katz) their programs, callable from C, Pascal, Basic etc. ... (2,Phil Katz) As far as ZIP specific file formats etc., PKWARE has ... (2,Phil Katz) explicitly dedicated the file format and the ".ZIP" ... (2,Phil Katz) extension into the public domain, so programmers are ... (2,Phil Katz) free to use the file format if they want. ga (2,Sysop) --> Douglas Hay (2,Darrell Pelan/Micro) bye (2,Eric) ? (2,douglas hay) Phil, why is a ZIP file better than a -excuse me- ARC file. (2,douglas hay) Do you use different CRC methods in ZIP ? What about damaged files. Damaged (2,douglas hay) ARC files are usually not retrievable. ga (2,Phil Katz) Several reasons. ZIP files use 4-byte signatures for ... (2,Phil Katz) every file header in a ZIP file, which means that file ... (2,Phil Katz) headers can be reliable found even in a badlt damaged ... (2,Phil Katz) ZIP file. ARC files only have a 1-byte id for each file (2,Phil Katz) header making it virtually impossible to find file headers ... (2,Phil Katz) in a damaged ARC file. More importantly, ZIP files store ... (2,Phil Katz) each file header TWICE, in different locations. Even if ... (2,Phil Katz) one of the headers gets clobbered, the second copy can ... (2,Phil Katz) be used with no loss of information. PKZIP also uses ... (2,Phil Katz) a CRC-32 for each file which is more reliable than the ... (2,Phil Katz) CRC-16 used for ARC files. Earlier this afternoon I ... (2,Phil Katz) have uploaded PKFIX095.ZIP which can take advantage of ... (2,Phil Katz) the extra reliability built into the ZIP file format ... (2,Phil Katz) to recover good files from damaged or truncated ZIP ... (2,Phil Katz) files. If it isn't posted now, I'm sure Joe will be ... (2,roger j) ? (2,Phil Katz) able to post it in a few days. ga (2,Mary Martos) ? (2,Sysop) [The program Phil uploaded is in LIB 0 right now as PKFIX0.] (2,Sysop) --> Eric (2,Eric) Phil, do you have any idea when ... ? (2,Eric) the compression library will be available ... and do you need any beta testers? (2,Eric) ga (2,Phil Katz) I would hope to have the compression libraries completed in one ... (2,Phil Katz) to two months. Yes, we will need beta testers. Several ... (2,Phil Katz) people already have volunteered. I assume that you are ... (2,Phil Katz) also volunteering now? ga (2,Eric) yes i am ... I will leave you a message in the sig. ga (2,Sysop) --> Eric? Volunterring? me too- grin (2,Sysop) --> Roger J. (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Sysop) --> Roger J. (2,roger j) Do you have plans for an OS/2 version and if so how soon? (2,Phil Katz) We are currently developping the software for MS-Windows ... (2,Phil Katz) and that will eventually be ported to OS/2 Presentation ... (2,Phil Katz) Manager. We also are currently discussing a non-PM ... (2,Phil Katz) version of the software. ga (2,Sysop) --> Marty Martos (2,Mary Martos) Phil, are there any plans for a CP/M version of ZIP? ga (2,Phil Katz) I have exchanged some messages with Bob Freed, ... (2,Phil Katz) who is the author of UNARC for CP/M. He is ... (2,Phil Katz) considering writing an UNZIP type of program ... (2,Phil Katz) for CP/M presently. ga (2,Irv) It's nearly finished. (2,Sysop) --> Bob Zim ok... first - definitly would volunteer for the compression stuff... and... also - is there any problem with uploading an un-edited log of this conference to BBSs to make the growth of ZIP a bit less fearful (for sysop) ga (2,Sysop) I'll answer the second part ... (2,Phil Katz) No, if it is ok with CIS to distribute a log of this ... (2,Phil Katz) conference, than it is OK with me. Joe? ga (2,Sysop) I'll check with CIS ...our downloading it ... (2,Sysop) and if it's okay ... (2,douglas hay) ? (2,Sysop) I have no problem with it at all ... (2,Sysop) the purpose is to serve users. ... (2,Sysop) Let me check, and I'll put a statement on the file description. ga so i should hold onto the log i have been creatng?... (2,Sysop) --> Kelly/2ZIP (2,Sysop) No. (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ack (2,Kelly/2ZIP) The ZIP file format allows for a version number of a (2,Sysop) I will check ... (2,Sysop) with CIS ... (2,Sysop) hold it for a second Kelly, (2,Sysop) so there's no misunderstanding ... (2,Sysop) I will check with CIS ... (2,Sysop) and leave a statement on the file in LIB 0 ... (2,Sysop) for downloading. (2,Sysop) go ahead Kelly (2,Kelly/2ZIP) Ok (grin) (2,Kelly/2ZIP) The ZIP file format allows for a version number of an ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) UNZIP program recent enough to process it. How should ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) a "second hand" UNZIPPER (say a free unZIP/ZIP) program ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) make use of this (since it seems to be based entirely ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) on PK products, V1.0 of KMSZIP might be different than ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) version 1.0 of PKZIP [it would be worse]). ga (2,Phil Katz) Ok. Well, programs should look at two fields in ... (2,Phil Katz) the ZIP file when deciding if they are able ... (2,Phil Katz) to extract the file. One is the version ... (2,Phil Katz) needed to extract, and the other is the ... (2,Phil Katz) compression method. Say that PKZIP uses an ... (2,Phil Katz) incredible new PULVERIZING algorithm that can ... (2,Phil Katz) compress all files to 10 bytes or less. PKZIP would (2,Phil Katz) store number to indicate that the file was pulverized ... (2,Phil Katz) and also would say that PKUNZIP 2.0 or higher was ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Phil Katz) needed to extract it. IF KMSZIP could handle Pulverized files, then it ... (2,Phil Katz) should go ahead and extract it. ga (2,Sysop) --> Kelly/2ZIP (2,Kelly/2ZIP) As sort of a followup to that question... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) If KMSZIP is version 3.7 and it creates pulverized files, ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) should it place version 2.0 in the version field (the PKUNZIP (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Kelly/2ZIP) product capable of extracting PULVERIZATION), or would ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) the compress-type field be enough to handle it. ga /u(2,Phil Katz) The compress-type field should be enough to handle it. ... sers User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 11 70006,2042 CSG SIG 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 16 73477,1506 NYK 2 JEFFREY MARTINO 20 73310,1307 RAL 2 PAT TERRY 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 23 76703,410 NRL 2 Jonathan Wayne 32 74676,656 FAK SIG 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 42 73775,1127 DCI 2 steve b .. 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren J 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 55 70217,2324 LTY ACCESS 56 72357,1442 DSC ACCESS 58 72160,763 CGL 2 Bill L. 60 71071,2477 BPC 2 JAMES MACFARLANE 63 76317,2216 KCL SIG 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve (-s2- 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv 82 72155,1402 SLM 3 Dale W. 88 74225,752 LOM 2 roger j 91 75170,14 DUK 2 Kelly/2ZIP 97 73077,1407 MLL 2 douglas hay 101 73407,1376 FYB 2 Paul Baniewicz 102 71131,2644 HAM ACCESS (2,Phil Katz) The purpose of the version needed-to-extract is mainly ... (2,Phil Katz) designed if say the information is stored differently ... (2,Phil Katz) in the file headers. Say version 2.0 of PKZIP stores ... (2,Phil Katz) needed information in the "extra field", that needs ... (2,Phil Katz) to be looked at. Then programs like PKUNZIP 1.0 would ... (2,Phil Katz) at least know that it might be missing something. ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) ok... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Steve (-s2-) interesting question comes to mind... (2,Steve (-s2-) with the example above, if KSMZIP does all that ZIP does... (2,Steve (-s2-) and ZIP has a defined "standard", what happens if KSM comes up (2,Steve (-s2-) ... (2,Steve (-s2-) with a new pulverized method, and implements it in their... (2,Steve (-s2-) program, and still calls their files ZIPped files... (2,Steve (-s2-) Will there be a required standard (is there already?) for ... (2,Steve (-s2-) ZIP like, say, KERMIT from Columbia Univ. where they "own" the... (2,Steve (-s2-) protocol, but anyone can write their own version, as long... (2,Steve (-s2-) as they conform to the specs...ga (2,Irv) (ala "squashed" in 1986 ?) (2,Phil Katz) Well, PKWARE has explicitly dedicated the ZIP file format ... (2,Phil Katz) and extension into the public domain, so PKWARE can ... (2,Phil Katz) not claim that the format is proprietary. KSMZIP would ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) (KMS) (2,Phil Katz) be free to add a new method without any (sorry, KMSZIP) ... ? (2,Phil Katz) without any legal recourse from PKWARE. Whether PKWARE ... (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Phil Katz) would incorporate the new method would depend on ... (2,Phil Katz) whether the author of KMSZIP made the algorithm ... (2,Phil Katz) available and the users of PKZIP/PKUNZIP etc. ... (2,Phil Katz) want to support that method. I think that the ... (2,Phil Katz) dedication to faster and better compression methods ... (2,Phil Katz) by PKWARE in the past speaks for itself, and PKWARE ... (2,Phil Katz) is committed to improving compression technology. ga (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Sysop) Is there anyone who hasn't had a turn yet who has a question to ask? (2,Sysop) Anyone new? (2,Sysop) --> Bill L. (2,Bill L.) You've answered two of my main questions. I want to say... (2,Bill L.) your support and realistic attitude regarding the use of PKZIP... (2,Bill L.) is a breath of fresh air. I've been flaming on the legal and ... (2,Bill L.) moral issues on Chicago area BBSs (hi Loren, Bob)... (2,Bill L.) My question is -- Have you talked to software authors... (2,Loren J) ? (2,Bill L.) who require that distribution of their software use the 'other'... (2,Bill L.) compression method? Chuck Forsberg of Omen comes to mind. (2,Sysop) "ga"? Bill? (2,Bill L.) ga (2,Bill L.) sorry (2,Phil Katz) I have exchanged messages with Chuck Forseberg ... (2,Phil Katz) in the past, but haven't recently discussed this ... (2,Phil Katz) issue with him. I've been meaning to ask him though ... (2,Phil Katz) since all the file on the PKWARE BBS are in ZIP format ... (2,Phil Katz) or no format at all :-) If Chuck doesn't wish to have (2,Phil Katz) DSZ posted in ZIP format, than I will certainly honour ... (2,Phil Katz) his request. In general, I don't expect everyone to convert ... (2,Phil Katz) overnight. It took quite a while before Squashing was ... (2,Phil Katz) generally accepted, but the increased speed and compression ... (2,Phil Katz) of Squashing eventually spoke for itself. I think that PKZIP ... (2,Phil Katz) stands on its own merits, besides the legal or political issues ... (2,Phil Katz) and will eventaully be generally accepted. ga (2,Irv) ? (2,Sysop) --> Loren J. ? (2,douglas hay) ? (2,Loren J) Uh, Bill, Bob ... this is not Loren Jones ... (2,Loren J) Sorry <grin>, it's Loren Jenkins. ga (2,Sysop) --> Irv ? (2,Irv) Ok thanks (2,Irv) Phil, I think the reason it took so long... (2,Irv) for Squashed to be accepted was it took from Dec 86 when it... (2,Irv) was added, until following Sept. for Buerg to come out... (2,Irv) with a free version. Sysops like Don Watkins of IBMNET would (2,Irv) not permit .ARC with squashed until then. (2,Irv) Watkins plans to wait until a FREE UNZIP is available... (2,Irv) again, before he accepts any .ZIP files. I personally... (2,Irv) think the finest public relations thing you could do is bring... (2,Irv) out your OWN FREE UNZIP program immediately, as simple as you (2,Irv) ... (2,Irv) want to make it... that would give PKWARE a head start and lots (2,Irv) more control over the pgm, and alleviate the "proprietary" fears (2,Irv) already mounting. ga. (2,Phil Katz) Yeah. I have seen some of the message threads in the ... (2,Phil Katz) hot topics forum about this. If it is really necessary ... (2,Phil Katz) (and no one else does it) I suppose PKWARE could come out ... (2,Phil Katz) with some sort of unzip type of programs with no features ... (2,Phil Katz) or options to speak of, although that would go against ... (2,Phil Katz) PKWARE's policy of only releasing the BEST software ... (2,Phil Katz) that we can. Anything less than PKUNZIP would not be ... (2,Phil Katz) the BEST software we could produce. I understand the ... (2,Phil Katz) concerns here, although I'm not sure why a user would ... (2,Phil Katz) use this limited free version of unzip when they could ... (2,Phil Katz) just as easily download and use PKUNZIP. I dunno. ga (2,Sysop) --> Douglas Hay (2,Irv) But do you WANT "somebody else" doing it? I'd think you would... (2,Irv) prefer controlling the program better, and doing that yourself? ga (2,Sysop) --> Douglas Hay (2,douglas hay) PK, the file COMPRES5.ARC compares (2,douglas hay) many compression programs. PKZIP/PKUNZIP are always near (2,douglas hay) the top of the list in each catagory. I noticed that (2,douglas hay) each version of PKARC/PKXARC get faster and faster (2,douglas hay) with each version. Can you speed up PKZIP ? It is already (2,douglas hay) very fast, but you seem to create ways to make your (2,douglas hay) programs out perform all others. ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, the version 3.61 programs of PKPAK and PKUNPAK were ... (2,Phil Katz) the results of thousands of hours (literally) of ... (2,Phil Katz) optimization, and were much faster than the first ... (2,Phil Katz) versions of PKARC and PKXARC. While I was able to use ... (2,Phil Katz) knowledge I learned about the quirks and ins and outs ... (2,Phil Katz) of the 8088 archeticture I learned while writing ... (2,Phil Katz) PKPAK etc. in PKZIP, I haven't spent nearly as much ... (2,Phil Katz) time optimizing PKZIP and PKUNZIP. Most of the assembly ... (2,Phil Katz) routines were translated from the C prototypes of the ... (2,Phil Katz) compression algorithms, and I haven't been had the time ... (2,Phil Katz) to extensively optimize them. I would certainly excpect ... (2,Phil Katz) future versions of the software to be much faster. For ... (2,Phil Katz) example the version 0.90 software is up to 10% faster than ... (2,Phil Katz) the 0.80 Beta versions. ga (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Sysop) --> Kelly/2ZIP (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ack (2,Kelly/2ZIP) Are there any plans for supporting error _correction_ in ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) future versions of PKZIP? ga (2,Phil Katz) That certainly is a possibility. Naturally a compression ... (2,Phil Katz) utility tries to store as small a file as possible and ... (2,Phil Katz) error correctio codes (ECC) stores more information, but ... (2,Phil Katz) when the softwar spans multiple disks and is used as ... (2,Phil Katz) a backup utility, ECC would be quite valuable. ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? (2,Steve (-s2-) With your response to my last question, it seems that without... ? (2,Steve (-s2-) some type of specification standards, we could end up with... (2,Steve (-s2-) 2, 6, or 20 different kinds of .ZIP files out there, unlike... (2,Steve (-s2-) with Kermit, where Columbia controlls the specs, but opened... (2,Steve (-s2-) up the protocol itself... any thoughts?...ga (2,Phil Katz) Yes and no. For example, PKPAK was able to store file and ... (2,Phil Katz) archive comments in an .ARC file in a manner that was ... (2,Phil Katz) transparent to all other ARC-processing files. The ZIP file ... (2,Phil Katz) format is very flexible, and technically speaking it would ... (2,Phil Katz) be possible to store ECC or other information in the ZIP ... (2,Phil Katz) file compatible with the current software. However, I have ... (2,Phil Katz) the sincere and fervent hope that any and all that wish ... (2,Phil Katz) to use the ZIP file format work in some co-ordinated ... (2,Phil Katz) manner, keeping the end users needs foremost in mind. ga (2,Steve (-s2-) perhaps a standards committee ? like ANSI for .ZIPs ? ...ga (2,Sysop) --> Bob Zim (2,Phil Katz) Sounds good to me. ok.... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) ? first i just wanted to say with rbbs, pcboard and spitfire bbs software already supporting .zip format.. it seems here to stay... you mentioned backup utils utilizing zip files... any idea if you will ever suppoort a util that using dma will backup to floppies and create standard zip files that can be manipulated wioth that util or regular dos... commands - this is not my question.. passing one on from my bbs... ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, that certainly is a possibility. PKWARE is currently (2,Phil Katz) negotiating with another company to enter into a joint (2,Phil Katz) venture to produce something like that, but I can't ... (2,Phil Katz) really say more about it at this time ... (2,Phil Katz) ga (2,Sysop) Is there anyone new here who hasn't had a turn? (2,Steve (-s2-) ? (2,Sysop) --> Kelly/2ZIP (2,Kelly/2ZIP) I have just two questions left, and I'll try to combine them ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) One: Is support for the macintosh being considered. If so ... (2,roger j) bye (2,Kelly/2ZIP) are you looking for a contract programmer to do it ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) (not me) ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) and 2) I was talking to a person today that said that you ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) weren't allowed to create an ARC to ZIP conversion program ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) yourself (and that's why programs like A2Z and 2ZIP exist ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) instead of your own). Is this true? Why? ga (2,Phil Katz) Good combining of unlike questions into one :-) ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) (grin) (2,Phil Katz) Ok. I have neither the equipment ... (2,Phil Katz) nor the skills to develop a Mac version of ... (2,Phil Katz) the software, so PKWARE would definitely need ... (2,Phil Katz) to work with an outside developer if we wanted ... (2,Phil Katz) to produce a Mac version of the software. Since ... (2,Phil Katz) we are developing an Amiga versions of the software ... (2,Phil Katz) I guess it is possible to get the software to work ... (2,Phil Katz) on a 68000, even though it does store all the ... (2,Phil Katz) bytes backwards :-] In answer to the second question ... (2,Phil Katz) SEA has claimed that the ARC format is proprietary ... (2,Phil Katz) and that even PKFIND (which read through ARC files ... (2,Phil Katz) only to look for filenames, and performed no ... (2,Phil Katz) extraction or compression) was violating their ... (2,Phil Katz) Copyright AND Trademark. Technically speaking, ... (2,Phil Katz) most conversion programs that invoke say PKUNPAK ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) (to pick a name out of a hat) (2,Phil Katz) and PKZIP aren't reading ARC files, ... (2,Phil Katz) However, I didn't think it would be worth the possible ... (2,Phil Katz) legal expenses and time to find out what would happen ... (2,Phil Katz) if PKWARE did release a conversion program :-(*) ga (2,Sysop) --> Steve Souza (2,Steve (-s2-) ok... (2,Steve (-s2-) last question for me (I hope)... (2,Steve (-s2-) back to the issue of you, releasing a FREE copy of PKunZIP... (2,Steve (-s2-) some folks (Don Watkins and the ASP pres. to name two)... (2,Steve (-s2-) are very insistant on not accepting your claim that folks can ... (2,Steve (-s2-) use PKunZIP for free, since there is a request there for $$... (2,Steve (-s2-) and won't accept the protocol until there is a free unzipper, ... (2,Steve (-s2-) so for the sake of those who would be doubters, and to help... (2,Steve (-s2-) your supporters spread the word of ZIP, would it be possible... (2,Steve (-s2-) for you to put out a FREE unzipper as a small PR effort, maybe... (2,Steve (-s2-) not a real program, and maybe not even officially from PKWARE...ga (2,Eric) bI concur 100% (2,Phil Katz) Well, first to re-iterate a little of what I said before ... (2,Phil Katz) I feel that if someone uses my software and doesn't ... (2,Phil Katz) want to voluntarily send in the requested registration ... (2,Phil Katz) fee than I have failed, and it is up to me to improve ... (2,Phil Katz) the quality or performance of the software until they ... ? (2,Phil Katz) do WANT to register it. If everyone was ... (2,Phil Katz) simply FORCED to register the software, then I would ... (2,Phil Katz) have little motivation to respond to the needs and ... (2,Phil Katz) requests of my users, or to continue to improve the ... (2,Phil Katz) quality of the software. Secondly, if I were to create ... (2,Phil Katz) some small unzipper, it would necessarily take time away ... (2,Phil Katz) from other projects that everyone is waiting for. I ... (2,Phil Katz) understand Mr. Watkins concern, but I wish to do what ... (2,Phil Katz) is best for all the users of PKWARE programs. I sincerely ... (2,Phil Katz) will consider this situation. ga (2,Sysop) --> Bob Zim M This i willbe f my final comment also... after viewing a few threads regarding this free unzipper and stuff... it seems to be a big argument between bbsers as to whether you are requireing users to register or not... Some interpret your docs as saying this is FREE and if you would like to register... then send me something... others seem to be saying that there is no middle ground between free or registering... if he is asking for money then it requires a fee to use it... obviously... you either believe one or the other... so for the record.... is the use of pkzip stuff free - and a big thanks for those that want to support it financailly or are we required to register for its use? p.s. ( i already did .. .this is for the public!) ga (2,Phil Katz) Well, I am just trying to be practical and ... (2,Phil Katz) common-sensical. Neither myself or most ... (2,Phil Katz) ShareWare authors are going to check door-to-door ... (2,Phil Katz) if someone is using the software without rgeistering ... (2,Phil Katz) it. I think it would be GREAT if everyone who used ... (2,Phil Katz) ShareWare would register it (then the ASP could ... (2,Phil Katz) probably buy CIS!). Without fully knwoing what ... (2,Phil Katz) the ASP's position is on this I don't want to undermine ... (2,Phil Katz) their position or guidelines. If someone uses PKZIP ... (2,Phil Katz) and really doesn't like the software, I don't think it ... (2,Phil Katz) would be fair for me to require them to register it. At ... (2,Phil Katz) least, that's not the type of registrations I want ... (2,Phil Katz) to receive. This probably isn;t clearing anything ... (2,Phil Katz) up is it?? I think maybe the best thing to resolve ... (2,Phil Katz) this issue at this point would be for PKWARE to ... (2,Phil Katz) (A) release some type of free unzipper as previously ... (2,Phil Katz) discussed, or (B) release an official policy statement ... (2,Phil Katz) of some kind that would address everyone's concerns. ... (2,Phil Katz) I will consider this situation and do either A or B. ga or all of the above-grin-thanks (2,Sysop) Does anyone have another question to ask? (2,Sysop) Before I adjourn this conference ... (2,Dale W.) How about a round of applause for Phil? (2,Sysop) I'd like to repeat what was said before ... (2,Steve (-s2-) clapp (2,Steve (-s2-) clapp (2,Steve (-s2-) clapp (2,Eric) clap clapp - howl! (2,Mark.Y) CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! (2,Steve (-s2-) clapping more and louder (2,Sysop) Please do not release any transcripts you ... (2,Kelly/2ZIP) (standing up) clap clap clap (2,Sysop) might have made .... i called cis while the conference was going on and they said if its ok with you its ok with them! (2,Sysop) I will have a transcript up Checked it out with the licensing agreement as well! (2,Sysop) With a statement in the description ... (2,Sysop) Now thanks to Phil and the gentlemen and ladies here ... /us User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 13 70317,3444 QEI SIG 16 76347,2310 MTC ACCESS 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 29 74676,656 FAK ACCESS 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren J 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 60 71071,2477 BPC 2 JAMES MACFARLANE 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve (-s2- 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv 82 72155,1402 SLM 2 Dale W. 91 75170,14 DUK 2 Kelly/2ZIP 101 73407,1376 FYB 2 Paul Baniewicz (2,Sysop) I look forward to seeing you all again. /ust User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 12 70003,4205 CSD 2 Steve L. 13 70317,3444 QEI SIG 16 76347,2310 MTC ACCESS 22 70365,1126 RCH 2 Eric 29 74676,656 FAK ACCESS 40 72371,1700 LOM 2 Bob Zim 48 72261,213 WPK 2 Loren J 52 76703,662 CBS 2 Sysop 60 71071,2477 BPC 2 JAMES MACFARLANE 68 72321,3367 MLW 2 Phil Katz 69 71340,276 SOR 2 Mark.Y 75 76703,633 SCE 2 Steve (-s2- 78 76701,117 SCE 2 Irv 82 72155,1402 SLM 2 Dale W. 91 75170,14 DUK 2 Kelly/2ZIP 101 73407,1376 FYB 2 Paul Baniewicz (2,Eric) bye (2,Steve (-s2-) bye all (2,Phil Katz) Ok, I'd like to make some closing remarks Joe ... good night and thanks... sysop - did you receive my last message? (2,Sysop) I got yours, Bob. Did you get mine? < nope..(2,Mark.Y) ? . l (2,Sysop) Go ahead, Phil. will wait for phil.. (2,Phil Katz) Ok, I'd just like to thank Joe again for inviting ... ;;C_HUG: - Job 91: He'll post the status of the transcript in its descrip. (2,Phil Katz) me for this conference tonight, and giving me ... (2,Phil Katz) the opportunity to listen to and try to answer ... (2,Phil Katz) everyones comments and questions. If anyone still ... (2,Phil Katz) has any questions after the forum is over, please ... (2,Phil Katz) feel free to leave me mail here in the Zenith forum, ... (2,Phil Katz) . ga sysop? (2,Sysop) Thank you, Phil. Good night. checked with cis via phone and checked my licensing agreement... the agreement says ok and (2,Sysop) Yes, Bob? over the phone cis reps said as long as you have said no prob... cis policy has no prob! so ... I assume this is ok? a friend watching seems it to be ok because of threads by nature but ... i understand that is not true ! ga