++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (C) Copyright 1991 by the Religion & Ethics RoundTable of GEnie. All rights reserved. Permission is hereby granted to not-for-profit groups to print this in its entirety AS IS provided that this notice is included: To sign up for GEnie, follow these steps: 1. With your computer and modem, dial 1-800-638-8369 2. When you connect, type HHH and press the RETURN key 3. The computer will respond U#= 4. You respond by typing the following: XTX99669,GENIE 5. Now answer the questions on the screen and you will be able to use GEnie the next working day. Have your credit card or checking account number handy. ======================================================== ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 151 Tue Aug 08, 1989 CHERNOFF [Paul] at 06:43 EDT If there is so much evidence for the Bible's story of creation, why did geologists in the 19th century stop believing in the "creation story"? These were men who set themselves to find proof of the Word in the World. During the 1800s these religious men found that the proof they were looking for showed that the Bible did not match the physical world. The "Genesis rocks" theory is an example of unscientific reasoning to explain something. No mechanism beyond "God did it" is proposed. Is there any way to check rocks which are really old with rocks God just made to look old? I don't see the evidence that the world was created in an instant. Not that this should be important to you, since whenever you encounter evidence to the contrary (such as old rocks) you can just say "God made it that way." Paul ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 152 Tue Aug 08, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 19:05 EDT I don't really understand where Harry gets his "Genesis rocks," but the main reason for the change in belief of the Biblical creation is the radio-carbon clock. I do not put much trust in this "clock," their "billions" of years seem too easy to say. When they find a dated sample and can check this clock I will be ready to believe the results scientists claim it gives. I don't really see thias a possible remedy so I would say the scientists will be safe for a while. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 153 Tue Aug 08, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:58 EDT John, I don't think that saying that the universe evolved is all that much of a leap of faith. The theorists saw that the Universe was (is) expanding and simply extrapolated back to see what the conditions were way back when. They then made predictions based on their calculations, and looked for verification of the predictions. In the most part the predictions were correct (the microwave background radiation was one that was verified many years later). The theory of evolution works the same way; look back in time using the fossil record, make some predictions, and dig some more fossils up to check your theory. One can also look to other branches of science for verification of the theories. Genetics shows a great similarity between human DNA and primate DNA (1%-2% difference). The further away on the evolutionary tree that we look, the more different is the DNA. Your statement on the lack of a known mechanism for building enzymes from non-biological components may be right. I have no knowledge of this aspect of chemistry, so I'll leave it to the chemists here to comment on. I do know that amino acids were produced in experiments that were designed to mimic the conditions that are thought to have existed in the early days of the planet. The article in which I read this is ~25 years old, so I don't know what the current findings are. You're right that the current unification theories predict particles far too massive to be produced in any accelerator that we can build. However, as in the case of the intermediate vector bosons that mediate the weak force, the massive bosons predicted by the SU(5) theory would exist as virtual particles, and would produce certain interactions (Proton decay among others) that would (theoretically) be measureable. Weak interactions were seen many years before the mediating particles were produced in accelerators. So far there haven't been any unambiguous results for the search for proton decay (Hey, we ain't right all the time! :-} ), but the predictions were made by the simplest version of the SU(5) theory, and there are other versions of that theory to test. There is also the relatively new superstring theory that seems to answer a lot of questions that SU(5) tends to ignore. This is all at the forefront of physics, and you have to expect problems. Look at the convoluted way quantum theory was formulated. Theories were formulated and discoveries were made in a very random manner. Only in retrospect can one follow what went on and make sense of it. (Computers and CD players, among other things, are a result of quantum mechanics.) I'm not sure how or if science could explore spirituality. I don't think spirituality is measureable. Yeah, I guess I am a purist, but I agree with you. Science is coming up with a lot of neat ideas that I feel we don't have the wisdom to deal with. Naturally the bombs come to mind, but there are a lot of other technologies that are being implemented without regard for their long term effects on the enviorment. Back to spirituality for a sec.. I strongly suggest reading "The Tao Of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. The Physics may be outdated, but the parallels between physics and Eastern phylosophy are quite thought provoking. --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 154 Wed Aug 09, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 00:00 EDT I believe that someone here mentioned that Gentry's theories were disproven in a subsequent article in the the same journal in which they were origionally published. Isn't it amazing how a creationist will latch onto a bit of scientific data (even though it was proven false) and use it against scientists, and then completely ignore all scientific data that disproves his view of reality? The Bible may be a great source of inspiration, but as a source of scientific ideas, it leaves much to be desired. --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 155 Wed Aug 09, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 21:38 EDT About a year ago I read "In Search Of The Double Helix" by John Gribbin. (This is a bit out of my field of interest, which is particle physics as most folks can tell from my earlier ramblings :-) ) The author points out that the majority of the DNA molecule has no apparent function. He then speculates that DNA is the predominant life form on this planet, and we ("we" meaning all living things) were made by the DNA to serve as "luxury accommodations" for itself. --Mark (just thought I'd toss a bit of gasoline on the fire ;-}) ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 156 Fri Aug 11, 1989 E.HAAS at 01:51 EDT Several experiments have been performed simulating conditions believed to exist on the Earth several billion years ago. If left alone for several days, organic compounds will form, including amino acids. If left alone for a longer time, these amino acids will assemble hemselves into proteins. Enzymes are nothing more than proteins that serve specific purposes within an organism. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 157 Fri Aug 11, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 23:56 PDT Gentry's findings were discussed in the journal _Science_ and the errors in his reasoning pointed out time and time again. This did not stop him from expanding his thesis into a book, a book published by a creationist press and not one of the major publishers of scientific works in his field. There is at present NO scientific evidence to make creationism a valid scientific idea. If someone has such evidence, please tell me, as I can most certainly make my scientific reputation with it. Carbon-14 dating is used in archaeology, but not geology or paleontology. The accuracy of Carbon-14 dating has been cross-checked with other methods, such as dendrochronology. It's accuracy depends mostly on the size and age of the carbon sample. These limitations have been overcome to some extent by accelerator / mass spec calibration of the C-14/C-12 ratio. The debate over evolution initially took place more than 100 years ago. The creationists lost. Like those who claim the earth is flat, they are but a historical curiosity, an anachonism. Creationists today remind me of those isolated Japanese soldiers found on remote islands after WWII had ended. The war is over, but on the fight, with the zeal of any good fanatic. There are many more important questions that need answers. Within the large body of evolutionary theory, much work still remains. In my own field (physical anthropology) the origins of bipedialism, language and tool use are still open to discussion. The sequence of hominid evolution becomes more focused, but still needs work. With all of this, the only real danger of creationism comes not in its imagined challange to the scientific orthodoxy, but it the attempt to sneak their views into the arena of public education. Creation "science" is bad science and, according to the world council of churchs, it is also bad theology. We need to remind those who represent us in government that this war is over in the scientific community. Legislation will not make it less so. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 158 Sat Aug 12, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 19:00 EDT The theory of origins is by no means a subject that has been definitively proven by so-called scientists. No one can prove that life began spontaneously although many evolutionists would have us believe that it did so over a period of millions and billions of years. If in the view of the evolutionist the creation of this earth by divine fiat is ludicrous, I can say no less for the theory that the proper mix of various elements led to the appearance of a living organism over millions of year. Can any scientist prove that today? Of course he can't, yet he expects us to believe by faith that it did happen. Well, thank you, I prefer to believe by faith that God created the world as he has revealed it to us in his Word. There is ample evidence that creation scientists have unearthed about the evidence of a short geological record. But unfortunately too many of these scientists are not given the respect that they deserve. If you don't believe this, read Gentry's book to see how an eminently qualified researcher is discriminated against by the scientific community. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 159 Sat Aug 12, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 21:21 EDT The frightening thing, HJOHN, is that people like you teach science. --Mark (off on vacation) ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 160 Sat Aug 12, 1989 DRMIKE at 23:45 EDT Gentry is not an "eminently qualified researcher" discriminated against by the scientific community. He simply is not an eminently qualified (or in any way qualified) researcher. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 161 Sun Aug 13, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 13:03 PDT If HJOHN teaches science, then perhaps one of the first things he needs to learn is that in science nothing can be "proven." Every theory, every idea is subject to challange and falisification. This is what makes scientific theories different from dogma. Evolutionary theory is subject to falsification. Find precambrian rocks with human fossils, for example and you have falsified one of the major components of the system. As the number of inconsistencies accumulate, younger scientists, less committed to the current paradigm, begin to look for better paradigms. This has happened to evolutionary theory several times. As new information is uncovered, the theory is modified. That is how science proceeds. Creationism is NOT a scientific theory because there is one provision of creationism that cannot be challanged or examined- the existense of the creator. Don't you get it? If it can't be falsified, it is not science. Period. End of discussion. Is all truth scientific truth? No, of course not. Is their no place in a discussion or origins for a creator or diety? Yes, there is a place. The majority of organized religions have been able to avoid conflict with science by placing creators and gods in the position of first cause, prime mover, in the universe. Religion addresses the 'whys' or origins, something that is beyond science. Science can only address the 'how.' HJOHN, if you truely are a science teacher, you have a responsiblity to your students to bring them to an understanding of what science is that is free from the distortion of your own religious belief. What you actually do, I do not know, but if you postings are any indication of the content of you class, what you are doing is illegal and destructive. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 162 Sun Aug 13, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 23:31 EDT FYI: I am not a science teacher, thank God! What perplexes me is that many so-called scientists will not accept the scientific proofs presented by non-evolutionary scientists as worthy of discussion. That is sheer arrogance! Many on this board are quick to pontificate on Gentry, perhaps without even having read any of his works or his book!! Boy, some of you guys give scientists a bad name! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 163 Mon Aug 14, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 20:28 EDT One of the most vexing issues for the evolutionist is the subject of the "missing links." Creation scientists believe that the missing links will remain missing because there really is no evolution from one form to another. A dog is always a dog. There may be various breeds of dogs yet they remain dogs. We see no evidence in nature of dogs evolving to a higher form of life. The same applies to almost any other form of life. The supposed evolutionary connections are just not there. Problems such as these lead creationists to regard the theory of evolution as unacceptable. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 164 Tue Aug 15, 1989 CHERNOFF [Paul] at 07:09 EDT HJOHN, Flat-Earth theorists complain that scietist refuse to take their evidence seriously. Should we be teaching that the Earth is flat in school? The so-called creationist evidence is the same material recycled over and over and over again. And has been responded to many times. After a while you get tired of responding to the same weak arguements. The "missing link" is a red herring. Punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution does expect to find them. Rather, the missing link is the result of our culture's belief that all is gradual and that jumps and leaps are not possible. However, transitional forms are being found all of the time. Paul ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 165 Tue Aug 15, 1989 DRMIKE at 07:55 EDT I hadn't been aware any scientist was any longer concerned about missing links. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 166 Tue Aug 15, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 20:31 EDT Isn't it surprising that some here are suggesting that the study of "missing links" is obsolete when that is exactly the proof that is needed to show the evolution for example from ape to man let alone from a one-celled organism to the homo sapiens of today. Can anyone here give us some convincing proof that man evolved from an ape? That should be easy enough if one is to accept the principle of evolution. Or does that also require evidence accumulated over a million years! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 167 Tue Aug 15, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 22:09 EDT I can give a good example that the obverse is true Harrison. Evolutionists say that man is the highest form that living things have "evolved" to. So why do we still have "lower" forms of life? If all are evolving upward there should be none. This also says that man will someday be alone on earth as the only species, because a some time all forms will have evolved to their max. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 168 Wed Aug 16, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 22:33 PDT HJOHN, I think we can all breath a sigh of relief knowing that you are not a science teacher. As for your "missing links", as you say, creationists predict that none will be found. Unfortuantely for them, many have been found. If you will go back and read some of the earlier discussion, I mentioned that the transition between reptiles and mammals has pretty much been filled out. Transitionary fossils have been documented now for most major vertebrate groups. You folks really should pay attention to recent developments in paleontology. Then again, you have already decided and I doubt if anything as mundane as a fossil with a reptilian and mammalian jaw articulation would mean much to you. Herm, You have some strange notions about what the theory of evolution would predict. I am well read in the subject, and I have never seen anyone make those kinds of predictions. Life forms exist because they are adapted to their environments. Each organism has carved out for itself its own role, called a niche. Over time, more complex life forms have evolved, often to expliot new niches. Mammals, for example, were around at the time of the dinosaurs, but were rather insignificant until the dinosaurs became extinct. Many new niches, once occupied my reptiles, were now open for mammals. C'mon you guys. Get real. I have gone out of my way to read the creationists literature. I have read more Morris and Gish than you can shake a stick at. I also read Gentry's articles in science and nature. Now, please read this next bit carefully. It is important. I will use small words and short sentences so you will not be confused. There is no such thing as "scientific proof" when it comes to a theory. There is data. The data can confirm an idea or it can disprove an idea. Nothing in science, not even evolution, is every proved to the point that it cannot be questioned. You can disprove something, but you can't prove it. Understand? Gentry's findings were challanged. Errors were pointed out in his interpretation of the data. It happens all the time. Articles in scientific journals are subject to something called peer review. If someone disagrees with you conclusions, well, that is the way science works. Gentrys conclusions were rejected in 1968. It is Gentry who, refusing to accept this, gives science a bad name. Now, I would really like to see some fresh material here. You guys keep circulating the same tired information. It is wrong then, it is wrong now. I think you know it is wrong, and you are being dishonest. This missing link thing is a good example. Get a new act. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 169 Thu Aug 17, 1989 CHERNOFF [Paul] at 06:44 EDT Harrison, nowhere in any evolutionary text does it say that man evolved from apes. Instead, it is clearly stated that man and ape have a common ancester way back in time. This may seem like a minor point to you, but these types of mistakes affects your credibility in these types of debates since one has to wonder how much you have bothered to read much about evolution (unfortunately, when schools have the guts to teach about evolution, they do a very poor job, so self-eduction on the subject is a requirement). Hermes, your commen about "higher" life forms replacing "lower" is one of the most common misconceptions about evolution. As Phil points out, life forms fill nichs in the environment. New niches are created over time. A new life form might be better filling an exisint niche (are replace a previous life form) or it might fill and niche previously unfilled. Paul ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 170 Thu Aug 17, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 21:48 EDT So what you two are saying is that before the niche is filled the particular being that fills it is already there? Does this leave any room for evolution? Where do you suppose those original beings came from. Do they just pop in to fill a gap? If I am mistaken it is because I read a different theory than you did. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 171 Thu Aug 17, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 23:33 EDT I think some of you fellows are denigrating the efforts of your evolutionary colleagues! Scholars like Haeckel, Dubois, Leakey have spent entire lifetimes trying to show the links between apes and man - and so far they have failed! These scholars have done an impressive amount of research trying to prove something that at best is speculative theory. The Bible states it rather succintly and with great insight: "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." Ecclesiastes 7:29 ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 172 Fri Aug 18, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 00:08 EDT And I will second that thought with Psalm 100:3 "Know ye that the LORD is God: it is he that made us, and not we ourselves:" Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 173 Fri Aug 18, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 01:01 PDT To folks such as you, there is of course no way that they could succeed. A pity that neither of you have bothered to understand the theory that you condemn. I have read most of the current creationist literature and understand what creationists consider "evidense" very well. A wish that you would take the time to keep yourselves current, at least in the popular literature. I wish you would just read the my postings. First of all, you CAN NOT PROVE a theory. You can only disprove it. Proof means there can be no doubt and all theories can be questioned. Do you understand this? I have repeated it constantly, yet you seem to keep repeating the same "you can't prove this, you can't prove that." Second, intermediate forms do exist in the fossil record for most vertebrate groups. The fossil record for human evolution is much better today than it ever was. You can keep claiming the evidense isn't there, but it is. But then again, you wouldn't accept it no matter how clear it was. Well, if there is anyone reading this who is open minded, please HJOHN is lying. There are "missing links", but he and his fellow creationists are trying to ignore it. The evidense for evolution is overwhelming. Creationists do not understand the theory they attempt to critique. They do not understand how science is done. The are fighting a battle that was won by Charles Darwin more than 100 years ago. I can give you pages of references if you like. "To ask a question, you must first know most of the answer" -Robert Sheckley ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 174 Fri Aug 18, 1989 WALTER at 21:34 EDT Phil, don't get too exasperated. The forces of ignorance and superstition are again on the rise. Reason is too frightening, too fragile. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 175 Sat Aug 19, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 04:07 PDT Gosh, did it show? :-) I have been fighting this battle for ten years now. I have come to realize that I do not fight to convince the close-minded. I fight it because there are alot of people who can be easilier swayed by the smoothness of creationists debaters. Mostly, I would like to feel that these people are just very sincere in their religious belief. I know better, though. The lying, the distortion, is purposeful. Attempting to sway the uninitiated, they betray themselves. If God does exist, I think she will hold them to account for this. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 176 Sat Aug 19, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 08:13 EDT I am NOT a creationist! I do not believe all was done in 7 literal days I think the Bible agrees with ALL the scientific findings but whereas scientists look at the findings to prove evolution I look at the findings to prove creation. With this beginning assumption dissentions will exist. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 177 Sat Aug 19, 1989 CHERNOFF [Paul] at 18:39 EDT Herm, Phil is more able to answer your message 170, but in case he does not, I will try. New niches arise over time. Think of the free market. 100 years ago there was no known need for a personal computer. But as PC companies arose (a sort of mutation) they started filling a niche which they just discovered. A number of PC companies competed with each other to best fill this niche, and many early companies died, with a few surviving. The PC market today can support a number of companies (but not an unilimted number) because the companies fill different sub-niches. Now, we can overextend this metaphor and come up with some odd stuff. A mutation can also take over a niche previously held by an existing organism. The mutation would not have to beat up its predicessor, but would just have to be a better competitor. For example, it might be more efficeint in gathering food, or it might have a higher rate of reproduction. The environment is constantly changing. Niches disappear and appear over time. A niche can go empty if no existing organism is fit to fill it. The appearance of new organism comes from mutations. While most mutations die, a few succeed. There is evidence that mutation is not a gradual process, but that we have had periods of mutations occuring in organisms (these periods are very large to us humans and can seem to the untrained to be gradual changes). I hope that this answers your remarks. Phil, if I made any mistakes please feel free to correct them. To another subject, why does Phil beleive that many creationist debaters are liars. Based on my own review of the literature, many creationists have 1) lied outright 2) misrepresent themselves and 3) twist what they read. Going on to 2), you can read stuff written by Dr. this and Dr. that. The impression given is that Dr. this and that are medical doctors. In reality they have honorary degrees (and should never use Dr. in any situation), have degress in theology, economics or some other subject unrealated to biology or geology or any "hard" science. Anyone is welcome to the debate, but no one should ever mis-represent themselves. 3) Twist what they read. To try to prove their own case they take sentences of evolutionists out of context (or even just half-sentences) to prove their own point. This, I believe, comes more from grasping at straws and self-delusion than from evil intentions. In addition, they add new terms to the scientific nomenclature without defining these terms. The most blatant example is the word "kind", which is used alot but never defined. 1) Perhaps this is the least important of the 3. This comes up most with laws to teach "creationism." The laws are religiously motivated, but they go out of their way to convince people that religion has no motivation. Look at the debates in state legislattures for the true purpose of "creationism" which is not to teach it in the schools, but to remove "evolution" from the schools. Sorry for the extralong message. Paul ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 178 Sat Aug 19, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 22:10 PDT More to the point, I can dismiss someone claiming that intermediate forms do not exist (missing links) as someone who is uninformed about paleontology. I have posted here extensively on this one creationist myth, citing references and giving descriptions of fossils. Once I have done this I feel it is the persons responsiblity to either check and critique my examples or stop claiming the transtional fossils do not exist. When HJOHN mentioned Gentry, I went to the library to find this references. HJOHN continues to make the claim that intermediate fossils do not exist. I can only assume now that he is lying. I apologize if I have sounded somewhat shrill on all of this. This is my life, you see. This subject represents not only an interest but a passion. These questions are among the most important a person can ask. What am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Biology and anthropology can provide good answers to the first two questions. The answer to the third must be sought elsewhere. In a science classroom, only scientific evidense for answers to the first two should be presented. For the present, evolution has no real competition. This may change, but before it does, evidense must be presented. I have yet to see such evidense (Gentry was a nice try, but no cigar). ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 179 Sun Aug 20, 1989 ARNIEBELL at 11:07 PDT Phil, I'm not a creationist, and I agree that the evidence for at least some amount of evolution is pretty overwhelming. But if you don't mind my asking, I'm a little curious as to your point of view on the origin of consciousness. Do you believe that consciousness, intelligence, our very essence evolved from amino acids in the primordial soup, or are you one of those who believes in a God who created everything through the mechanism of evolution? ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 180 Mon Aug 21, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 00:28 PDT ARNIEBELL, You will have to give me your definitions of intelligence and c consciousness before I can answer this question. I am writing my thesis on early primate brain evolution. There is a good deal of evidence indicating that the complex functions like intelligence and consciousness are tied to the development of cerebral dominance in the human brain. Consciousness, in the sense that we use it to refer to human self-awareness, is somehow related to partitioning of brain functions. Evolution does not exclude god or gods from the process. It just removes them to primary causation. God, if one chooses to believe in god, can be seen as the prime mover in the universe, one acting through evolution and natural processes. This view is compatable with certain intepretations of genesis. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 181 Mon Aug 21, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 20:49 EDT Wow! Gone for a week, and 21 new messages! Phil, You mentioned that creationism isn't a science. You forget that creationists will herniate themselves ignoring that! :-) Can you recommend some books for the layman on evolution? --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 182 Mon Aug 21, 1989 ARNIEBELL at 18:36 PDT Phil, don't worry about MY definitions of intelligence and consciousness. I'm interested in YOURS. Purely as a matter of interest, and recognizing that your point of view (and mine) are unprovable assumptions, do you believe that some part of you--some form of intelligence/consciousness/identity-- continues to exist after physical death, and do you believe that what we commonly refer to as "life" is strictly a biochemical process, to the exclusion of any souls/spirits/other non-measurable entities? ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 183 Mon Aug 21, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 23:33 EDT Isn't it rather interesting that while some evolutionists contend that a theory cannot be proved, that is exactly what they seem to spend their lifetime trying to do - provide "empirical, scientific" proof that their theories are correct! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 184 Tue Aug 22, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 02:06 EDT Mark, I have a very well written book called "Life--How did it get here? By evolution or by creation?" Any interrested in a free copy send me your address. H.GRIFFITH1 (Email) Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 185 Tue Aug 22, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 20:13 EDT Herm: Who is the author and publisher? Hope it is not WT stuff! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 186 Tue Aug 22, 1989 CHERNOFF [Paul] at 20:19 EDT Harrison, I think I have a copy and that it is WT stuff. Stephen J. Gould's books are very good. He is an expert on the subject and most of his writings are for the layman. Plus he has a very good sense of humour. Paul ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 187 Tue Aug 22, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 21:00 EDT Some of us could use a sense of humor rather than listening to a lot of the shrieking here! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 188 Tue Aug 22, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 23:50 PDT You still haven't responded to the issue of intermediate forms. Let us say we have two fossils separated by a signficant span of time. Fossil A Fossil B Creationism predicts that, since these forms are the products of special creation, no intermediate organs will exist. If an intermediate form is found, what happens. If creationism were a science, such a find would be considered an a anomaly. Many such finds would constitute a point favoring disproof of evolution. This is not what happens. When the find is made: Fossil A Fossil C Fossil B Creationists will then point out that no intermediates exist between A and C. When one is found: Fossil A Fossil D Fossil C Fossil B Creationist then announce that no intermediates exist between A and D or D and C (not to mention C and B). Intermediate fossils do exist. Creationism cannot explain the fossil record, except to claim that the entire thing is mis-interpreted. The only other possible position is to invoke the inscruitable mind of the creator. If you feel creation is better at explaining the fossil record, then please share your information with us. I won't hold my breath. (Is that funny enough?) ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 189 Tue Aug 22, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 23:55 PDT HJOHN, You really don't get it, do you? Let me try another approach. What is a scientific theory? Give me your definition. Is creationism a scientific theory? What is it you really dislike about evolution? Why is it you always put "scientists" in quotes? ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 190 Wed Aug 23, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 00:09 PDT If I don't know what you mean when you use these words, we may talk past each other. Consciousness and intelligence are certainly real phenomena, even if they are difficult to define. I intepret consciousness as self-awareness in the sense that I exist and am separate from other forms of existence. Intelligence is tricky. One could be strictly biological and express intelligence as a measurement of brain volume exceeding that necessary to maintain body functions. This definition (called an index of encephalization) is a good interspecies measure of intelligence. I am incline to view the human mind as differing in degree, rather than kind, from other animals. You question about the soul I shall dodge. I am an agnostic when it comes to this question. As a human, I am aware of my own mortality (something that may distinguish human consciousness from other animals) and would very much like to believe that some aspect of my consciousness continues after death. That is comforting. However, I have no reason to believe that it does. All belief must have a foundation in something. I have had no mystical experiences giving me insights into what happens after death and much as I would like to believe, well, as the saying goes, "You can't throw yourself a surprize party." To sum up, I just don't know one way or the other. I have nothing upon which to base a believe. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 191 Wed Aug 23, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 06:45 EDT Phil, You always speak in millions of years. But, have you seen an actual species change in all of the past scientific research? The fact that animals even closely related cannot have offspring that are not hybrid shows that this cannot happen. If there was a species change through mutation it would have to happen to many animals at once so that those "mutated" animals could have offspring. This is because hybrid offspring cannot reproduce! The idea of mutations filling the gaps or making links between animals we are familiar with is NOT logical and is taken by scientists with more faith than we need to believe in a God. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 192 Wed Aug 23, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 21:47 PDT Well Herm, gosh you got me on that one. Imagine how such a simple thing could have slipped by all of those biologists for all these years. How do you do it? Guess I'll drop out of grad school and enroll in divinity school. Seriously, I really wish you guys would at least try to study some biology. I don't know where to begin in an attempt to untangle the above mess. Where did you get this from? 1) No, I have not seen a species change. I have not seen iron rust either. I mean, I see the iron and I see the rust a few days later, but I don't really see the iron change to iron oxide. Given the fact that evolution requires lots of time, and that the average lifespan is about 80 years (and that the theory of natural selection itself is only 130 years old,) perhaps it is surprizing that I personally have not seen such changes occur. Now if you are willing to accept organisms that have a shorter generation time- insects (like fruit flies) or even some species of plants, there are documented speciation events. I can dig up the references if you want, but why bother, you wont read them. 2) In most higher vertebrates, hy brid offspring cannot reproduce. In almost every other type of organism, this is not the case. Better go back and retake your genetics class. 3) Natural selection operates on variation within the population to produce changes in gene frequencies. Natural selection can operate by reducing the amount of variation (stablizing selection) by shifting the mean within the total range of variation (directional selection) or by acting on the expreme ranges of variation with a population (disruptive selection). Speciation may result from disruptive selection or can result from an isolation of two populations in such a way as to prevent migration (gene flow). Over time, the two populations become more different. If there are any other points over which you are confused, don't hesitate to ask. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 193 Thu Aug 24, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 20:49 EDT So, if you make me look stupid, then you'll look intelligent, huh?! You are no different than those clergy who invent rediculous doctrines to keep the laity in "their place." Excuse me, your excellence but I do have some thoughts and if you disagree you may counter them and even suggest a book to read--I'm not afraid to read, my B.Dalton bill is higher than my GEnie bill anyway. (#1) Did you know that they have said that it takes millions of years for a star to go supernovae also--yet we saw one in 1987. The fruitfly examples which they use are 'eye colr change' or 'moving a leg to the head' and some other things, yet! they are STILL fruitflies! They do not become another species, and scientist know that doing so would be an impossibility if they were to be expected to live long enough to mate. (# ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 194 Fri Aug 25, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:00 EDT Herm, I'm a guy who devoloped an interest in Cosmology / High energy physis a few years ago, and I just had a theoretical physicist make me look very ignorant. His intention was to inform me of some misconseptions I had, and not to inform me how ignorant I am on the subject. It was a humbling experience, and lead to to an expansion of my knoweledge of the subject. The experience was unsettling, but in the long run, good for me. I feel that Phil is trying to do the same thing. He is obviously working on some sort of degree in this field, and hates to see silly nonsense spewn forth by ignorant people. Since this is obviously a very emotional subject, I can understand his getting a bit 'evangelical' ;-) on the subject. Regarding your comment on the recent supernova: We've seen many before. A star with a mass quite a bit greater than the mass of our sun may eventually go supernove. It burns faster and hotter than our star, and if it doesn't dump enough mass before it starts making iron, it will blow up. A star like this has a shorter life than our star. The sun will die without doing anything more exciting than turning into a red giant during its helium burning phase, but a star with too much mass may go supernova. Massive stars are common, and considering that the age of the Universe is 15 Billion years (+/- 5 Billion) and the distances involved, I don't see your point. If you want more details about supernovae let me know. --- Re Books: I have a series of essays bu S.J. Gould' "Ever since Darwin" and will read it soon. I also picked up "Scientists Confront Creationism" edited by Laurie R. Godfrey. Looks pretty interesting! --- Re: All the biblical quotes (and I'd _really_ like to get an answer on this) How can one differentiate between revelation and hubris? (If you're not the one having the revelation) --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 195 Fri Aug 25, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 23:39 EDT Mark, I will try to take your remarks to heart as I try to explain my limited understanding of the scientific belief of evolution. I do see your point and it is well taken. The reason I mentioned supernovaes was because there are a vast number of species of plants and animals, plus the fact that scientists have been dealing on the genetic level to produce natural mutations and for the last 130 years none have taken place. These facts would make the chance of it happening (if it could happen) close to the chance of a star going supernovae and our noticing it within our lifetime. I didn't quite understand your question: "How can one differentiate between revelation anbd hubris?" My main test for understanding is that it must not contradict with any other scripture in the Bible, if it does then the understanding of it is obviously wrong. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 196 Sat Aug 26, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 01:17 EDT Mark, Since you are studying this, I would like to ask a question that has been bothering me for some time, if you don't mind. We know that the universe is at least 15 billion years old because the most distant star's light is finally reaching us, and according to the doppler effect the red-shift shows that these stars (or galaxies) are 15 billion miles away--thus they are at least 15 Bibllion years old. My question is how long did it take for those stars to get to the position they are at--obviously at the edge of the known universe--and wouldn't this time/age be added to the age of the universe? Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 197 Fri Aug 25, 1989 PANICHOLLS [Phil ] at 22:22 PDT First of all, Herm, if I thought you were stupid I wouldn't bother. No one can know everything or be an expert in all fields. I suggest that your rejection of evolution is not based upon a lack of scientific evidence, but on your feeling anything which contradicts scripture cannot be correct (stated in the passage above). In that you are at least being more honest than most creationists I have encountered. I am working on a PhD in anthropology right now, so evolution is my field of expertise. When I point out the errors in your statements related to biology and evolution, I do so because I don't want others who might read this to get the idea that you have a point. I have never questioned anything you have said regarding the Bible. I am a Jew myself, not a christian. Now, you claim "they are still fruitflies!" True, but there are now some 18 species of Drosophilia, including two produced by controlled mutation in laboratories and 3 which appear to have formed in nature. Speciation in Drosophilia is easy to detect, because interfertility between species results from chromosome changes that do not allow for even chromsome distribution during meiosis. These chromsome alterations can be observed with a compound microscope. A Nova may take a million years to develop. However, the increase in the bightness and size of the star takes place in a matter of weeks. They differ from speciation, in that speciation takes place gradually. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 198 Sat Aug 26, 1989 R.LEE11 at 02:15 CDT A fundamental principle in evolutionary theory is that of natural selection. The niche is filled by that species which is best capable of adapting to it. A biome is a collection of niches. In evolution theory it is typically the case that speciation is a function of gene pool isolation or gene pool adaptability. Simply, a new species shall usually arise if a multi-specied group is somehow physically isolated or it is subjected to environmental stress. Each individual niche is capable of supporting this evolutionary adaptation provided that sufficient variation in species exist to enter said niche. In cases where sufficient species variation does not exist then the statistical probability of a niche being filled declines contingent upon degree of physical isolation and/or environmental stress. As a consequence it is possible that some available niches may go unfilled. It is typically the case that the success of the biome is directly related to the interdependence existing among various niches. In the event that the interdependence among niches is disturbed it is theoretically possible for the entire biome to collapse. The success of any biome then appears to ultimately depend upon the diversity of competitors to occupy niches. Natural selection is only capable of successfully responding to environmental stress if it has sufficient numbers of species from which to select. Should it be the case that diversity has become too confined evolutionary theory dictates that no species may successfully occupy a given niche. As biome existence appears related to niche interdependence, decrease in species diversity may lead to collapse of the biome. Upon the collapse of a biome it is possible that a new biome may emerge -- we see a model of this occurring in the southern movement of the Sahara into regions which were historically typically grasslands. Over time it is likely that a new biome may emerge as a function of the slow selective filling of individual niches AND the emergence of interdependent relationships occurring among the niches. If sufficient variability is lost in transiting from one biome to another the likelihood of appearance of the new biome is significantly reduced; moreover, the development of inter-niche interdependence, a prerequisite for successful biome establishment, is significantly delayed. It would therefore appear that evolution must, a priori, premise its activities on variability and time. As it has recently been suggested by science that the global extinction rate shall be approximately 1000 times faster than background during the next several tens of years we shall likely see collapse of numerous biomes and decreased probability for establishment of new ones. Extinction events have been recorded occurring with some predictable periodicity in the geologic record. It may be that these periodic extinction events are regulatory in nature. The fossil record of humanoid-related anthropods goes back many tens of thousands of years; perhaps even hundreds of thousands to millions of years. I am amazed by the apparent non-sequitor of the seemingly short existance of civilization given the fossil record. It would seem logical that with the long existance of humanoid-related anthropods that the likelihood of a much longer existence of civilization then what is recorded should be the case. That this is not the case suggests that civilization must either be a recent evolutionary development or there have been previous civilization(s) which have become extinct leaving no record of their existence. If civilization is a relatively recent evolutionary adaptation in the long history of the species what would prompt such a radical departure from the norm? If civilization is a recurrent humanoid-related anthropod activity why does no evidence of these previous civilizations exist? Any ideas? From a statistical viewpoint, it would appear ethnocentric to assume that this civilization is the only one that humanoid-related anthropods have developed. What do you think? ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 199 Sat Aug 26, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 07:52 EDT I think if you used less gobbledegook, the discussion would be more fruitful!! Just a suggestion! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 200 Sat Aug 26, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 14:14 EDT There are a number of people participating in this discussion who are avowed evolutionists. Would any of you be willing to share with us what scientific evidence exists today about the synthesis of life from inert matter. Since evolutionary scientists posit the theory that the earth evolved to its present state over a long period of time and without an assist from a divine creator, they must have some scientific, empirical proof for how life began. After all, isn't that what they keep asking the creationists! ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 201 Sat Aug 26, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 15:59 EDT Phil, I appreciate your patience on my behalf and hope you will NOT take my suggestions as forced opinions like of which are forced on children at school about evolution. I would like to know more about these fruit flies which you say have mutated. Has the mutation been benefitial for the species or can it be described as a birth defect? The reason I ask is because the Encyclopedia Americana (1977) said "The fact that most mutations are damaging to the organism seems hard to reconcile with the view that mutation is the source of raw materials for evolution. Indeed, mutants illustrated in bilogy textbooks are a collection of freaks and monstrosities and mutation seems to be a destructive rather than a constructive process." When mutated insects were placed in competition with normal ones, the result was always the same. As G. Ledyard Stebbins said in the book: " Processes of organic Evolution": "After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated." So I ask: Would any process that resulted in harm 999 times out of 1000 be considered benefitial? Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 202 Sat Aug 26, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 16:11 EDT R. Lee11, As for the first part of your message I ask: "What possible stress could of developed to make man come about? Granted they no longer say we descended from apes, but what kept us from descending into apes? Certainly the world was a much wilder place. Did we all of a sudden need someone who could write down his history 5000 years ago to fill a certain niche? The fact that man only comes on the scene in the past few thousand years is actually proof that he was created, and created last. If man had come along earlier then the world would have been dominated by him much earlier, but history and anthropology does not show this. After rereading your message I may be answering incorrectly for I cannot discern whether you are supporting evolution or not. Actually history and the Bible does support a "TYPE" of evolution. This is in the fact that Noah did not take two of every different type of dog, for instance he did not take a cocker spaniel and a German Shepherd and a Dachsund--but he only took TWO dogs and the different types "developed" from these. Humans even developed different races in different climates of the world. But this is not the type of evolution which changes an amoeba into a salamander. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 203 Sat Aug 26, 1989 DHWEINSTEIN [Dave] at 18:34 EDT Herm: The last study I saw said that the average number of mutations in each *human* is 6 per generation. BTW: Most mutations are micro mutations and do not have any dramatic external effects, and most mutations are neither good nor bad, they are irrelevant. It inly when circumstances change that the body of mutations which have been built up over the years become important. Furthermore, negative mutations which do not interfere with the ability of a creature to reproduce (e.g. color blindness) will also remain in the gene pool. It is only when (a) situations in the environment change drastically or (b) a new niche opens up [i.e. an existing species dies out] that the pool of differences becomes important. As for the sudden appearance of modern man, well...the ice ages were a period of mass extinctions, an intelligent warm blooded omnivore had distinct advantages. Furthermore, living in those circumstances made certain characteristics of modern man (i.e. intelligence) extremely important, and members of the gene pool without it would be weeded out. And civilization is an extremely slow process (btw: current evidence indicates that the primary change from a hunter/gatherer society to a n agarian society was helped along a good bit by the need to cultivate grains for fermented beverages). The technology of the hunter/gatherer society is incredibly complex, and each jump along a "civilization scale" takes time. Furthermore, until the invention of written languages (which had definite advantages), it was difficult to keep records or trade information outside of restricted areas (and written languages were not an "Evolutionary Goal" per se, they were made possible by abstract intelligence, which was). --Dave ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 204 Sat Aug 26, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 21:31 EDT Dave, I don't seem to understand much of what you said above. What exactly do you mean that every human experiences 6 mutations? That I personally have/will mutate 6 times in my lifetime? If that is the case what is the cause? As for the mass extinctions during the so called Ice age, I would think that the first to be wiped out would be the warm blooded animals that would become man. Still this does not explain why man did not arise before the "Ice age." Nor does it explain why intelligence could replace instinct just by changing a gene. If intelligence were a possibility all through the life history then something other than man should show intelligence associated with instinct. Now for my last question: You mentioned "Evolutionary goal." How can this be a possibility if evolution is based on chance and random factors? If there is a goal, then there has to be design! Something has to "set up" or arrange matters for a goal to be reached. You cannot put a bomb in a printing office if you want a dictionary to be printed. Random factors always break down substances. The laws of atrophy disallow any goals to be reached randomly. Even fractals rely on concise mathematical formulas and "designs" are seen because of repetitive factors. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 205 Sat Aug 26, 1989 R.LEE11 at 22:36 CDT Re evolution In the last few years a type of invariant mitochonrial DNA has been discovered in humans. The method of inheritance of this DNA appears to be from the female of the species to either sex progeny across generations. This mitochondrial DNA appears to be the same in all humans. I am not sure what this invariant mitochondrial DNA means in regard to the present arguments on this board but I have heard this mitochondrial DNA referred to a NOVA program which was entitled, "In Search of Historic Eve." The program submitted data which suggested that the originator of the specific type of mitochondrial DNA was probably in Africa. Does anybody know anything more about this mitochondrial DNA? In other research I have seen which was conducted to attempt to determine the origin of man I have seen evidence suggesting an East Asian origin. Evidence used to support this contention was derived by DNA hybridization studies of various species of Old World monkeys and humans. Certainly this Africa/East Asian inconsistency in reported origin of man is confusing and suggests that this area is not yet completely resolved. Perhaps new information on either of these two theorized origins has come forth of which I am not aware. Does anybody know anything new about this? Another non-sequitor I have encountered which needs to be resolved is the advent of civilization. It is generally accepted that civilization was born in Mesopotamia somewhere near the Tigress and Euphrates rivers - the Sumerians, I believe. One of the posters here said that during the last great mass extinction conditions would favor propigation of an intelligent warm- blooded omnivore. The last great ice age is suggested to have occurred approximately 12 to 14 thousand years ago. If no previous civilization existed prior to the present one which began in Mesopotamia it would appear that we are talking of the evolutionary development of high intelligence occurring sometime within the last 12 - 14 thousand years. In the recorded history of homonid fossils, this period of time is but a very small fraction. Seemingly, if the present civilization is the only of all history, then something categorically different occurred in human evolution within this relative recent short epoch. This seems possible as there have been other Ice Ages during which the record shows presence of homonids and no subsequent development of civilization has been documented. What this unusual causative mutational phenomenon could have been which was not operative in previous mass extinctions in which homonids participated but was operative in the last mass extinction period is not currently accounted for in any comprehensive fashion to my knowledge. Does anyone have any input? Should substantive evidence of existence of prior civilizations appear it would seem that no unique event occurred since the last great Ice Age and this present civilization is but a typical inter-glacial period homonid behavior. In absence of same it appears probable a unique event of some type occurred which was unprecedented in the long history of homonids. Assuming this could be the case, what might account for the phenomenon of high intelligence in this present inter-glacial period which did not occur during all previous inter-glaciations in which homonids participated and no civilizations evolved? Any thoughts on this? Do these questions make any sense from a scientific standpoint? Am I mixing apples and oranges? Is this line of thinking out in left field or does it make sense? I am trying to approach the problem from a logical and statistical standpoint. I do not claim to be either an evolutionist or a creationist -- I am only asking scientific questions (I think) which might help me to resolve the question in my own mind. Ironically, if the natural experiment of high intelligence has only been tried once (in this present inter-glacial period) we do not yet know if this mutation will favor survival of the species or favor new organisms replacing our vacated niche. It would however appear that nature's "final exam" of this mutation may be immediately ahead. Perhaps other traits, e.g., altruism, etc. of the species must be evolved to high levels prior to advent of high intelligence. Does this make any sense? ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 206 Mon Aug 28, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 22:41 EDT Herm, Please realize that I'm not a student of Physics/Cosmology, I'm just very interested in the subjects, and have read a couple dozen books on those topics. Your question about the a galaxy on the 'edge' of the Universe is a good one and I'll try to explain. People have a tendancy to envision the Universe as a sphere. This isn't an accurate representation due to the curvature of space. Think of a two dimensional representation of a sphere, a circle. The circle has a center and an edge. It is finite and bounded, and points in the circle can have preferred positions. Now re-expand this to three dimensions. You can see that the 'edge' was just an illusion brought on by looking at a model lacking one dimension. The edge disappears and so does the concept of a point having a preferred position. Any point on the sphere is as good as any other, and if a point is moved in a straight line along the surface of the sphere, it will eventually return to its starting point. The surface of a sphere is finite but unbounded. There is something called the Cosmological Principal which, simply put, states that there is no preferred position in space, and space (on a _large_ scale) should look pretty much the same no matter where you're looking at it from. An observer in a galaxy that seems to us to be at the edge of the universe, would see our galaxy as seeming to be at the edge of the universe. The Universe is finite but unbounded. If you travel long enough in a straight line, you will eventually wind up where you started. This isn't to say that there is an extra dimension we're not seeing, it's just that the geometry of the universe is Non-Euclidean, and space curves back on itself like the surface of a sphere curves back on itself. The Universe has no edge. The galaxy you mentioned isn't actually speeding toward the edge of the universe, space-time is expanding and the galaxy is just being taken along for the ride. Think of a loaf of raisin bread rising. From the viewpoint of one raisin, all the other raisins are moving away from it and the further the raisin the faster it seems to be moving. Hope this helped. If you're really interested, there is a great book on the subject called "The Big Bang revised and updated edition" by Joseph Silk, published by Freeman Press. Joseph Silk explains it much more clearly than I ever could. Re my comment about revelation vs hubris: The Bible was put on paper by humans, and knowing human nature, well... What if science came up with a theory that possibly could point toward a sign of a supreme being? Would you ignore it if it didn't agree with scripture? Don't take this as an attack of the Bible. I just feel that when faced with something we can't comprehend, we tend to look at it from a perspective that we are comfortable with. Would we be able to comprehend revelations from God, or would we try to understand them from a level more accessable to humans? The way I see it, the Bible is to revelation as a circle is to a sphere or a sphere is to the universe. A more easily accessable model of what we are trying to understand. The reason I asked if you would ignore a bit of theory that might be seen as possible evidence of a supreme being if it disagreed with scripture, is that I came across an interesting bit of information in the previously mentioned book that, depending on one's state of mind, could cause one to sprain an eyebrow. To put as breifly as possible, theory states that in an early stage of expansion, the universe contained an extremely homogenous cloud of gas. Density fluctuations were needed for parts of this cloud to differentiate and collapse into structures (galaxies or clusters of galaxies). Density fluctuations in a gas are noise. There are many kinds of noise, white noise, for example, static is composed of random fluctuations at all frequencies. Correlated noise, like speech, is non-random. Computer simulations lean more toward a correlated, non-random density fluctuation. Some theorists speculate that the correlated density fluctuations were amplified quantum fluctuations, however my limited understanding of quantum theory (and I mean _limited_) leads me to believe that quantum fluctuations would be random. I'll leave you to speculate on the source of the noise. I was an atheist before I developed an interest in Physics/Cosmology. Now I'm not. --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 207 Mon Aug 28, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 22:51 EDT Mark, I see what you are saying about the age/red shift idea. You mean that we really couldn't see the beginning of the universe because the universe is in the way, right? I also have been reading the same type of book currently called "COSMIC COINCIDENCES", by John Gribbin and Martin Rees. He also mentions about the need for the fluctuations within the expansion of the first part of the "Big Bang" and knows that it would have to be caused by "outside" influences. I actually feel th t the fact that the universe "had a beginning" suggests creation. How do any others feel about this? Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 208 Tue Aug 29, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 00:36 EDT Herm, Not exactly age/redshift, but the microwave background. In an early epoch of the universe, the temperature was so high that photons interacted freely with matter. There then came a time when the density of the universe dropped to a point where the density was too low for the photons to interact. The universe became transparent. This is called a decoupling phase. The photons went on their merry way without matter getting in the way. These are the photons we see as the microwave background. This is thought to have happened about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. The age/redshift bit is a consequence of the universe expanding (the raisin bread senario in my previous post). I wish we could get in sync here! I've got that book here but I'm reading three other books, and a fourth might cause brain damage :-)! John Gribbin is one of my favorite authors, and his book "In search of Schrodinger's Cat" was _THE_ book that peaked my current interest in physics and cosmology! I'll start the book tomorrow on the train on the way to work, but If by brain starts to smoke, I'll know who to blame! --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 209 Tue Aug 29, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 01:25 EDT Ok Mark, I am on page 72 right now. I just went through most of what you are talking about and my brain is already smoking! (No not drugs people ;) ) I understand that we could not see all the way back because of the Photons interaction, and that is logical. But my main point in asking the question is that one of your earlier messages said the Universe is 15 Billion +or- i of what can be detected--we just don't know how many years to ADD . Also I see now that what you are saying is that we are actually deciding from the red shift what speed that space is expanding and figuring how long it took to get to that point, (at least.) So I ask you this: Is it verified that there IS a center of the universe? Could not space just be expanding out from ALL matter? Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 210 Tue Aug 29, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:17 EDT Herm, I think GEnie ate part of your first question, so I'm not sure what you're asking. Re your second question: Theory actually states that there is _no_ center to the Universe, and that space is expanding at an equal rate at all points in the Universe. Space isn't exactly expanding away from matter, it's expanding and taking the matter with it. It is expanding, but not expanding away from anything except its beginning. All structures in space are moving away from one another (at least non-gravitationally bound systems). Herm, don't worry about a smoking brain! Think of it as aerobics for the mind :-). --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 211 Tue Aug 29, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:18 EDT Phil, Since you are far more informed on the topic of evolution than I can hope to be, I'd appreciate if you could explain something to me. I just read an essay by C. Loring Brace entitled "Humans in Time and Space" which states that the Neanderthals were an early form of Homo Sapiens. I was under the impression that they were a side branch (?) and existed at the same time as Cro-Magnon, and were out evolved by Cro-Magnon (?). Help! --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 212 Wed Aug 30, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 01:58 EDT Good idea, let's get back to evolution and carry this discussion over to the "Big Bang" topic. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 213 Wed Aug 30, 1989 R.LEE11 at 19:51 CDT Sir Fred Hoyle, Royal Astronomer, has calculated the mathematical probability that life would emerge from the primordial soup. He reported that the odds that this would occur are 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power. To put this in some type of context he then said that the odds of picking a particular atom from among all the atoms of the entire universe would be 1 in 10 to the 80th power. Seemingly, it would appear, if one is to give the hard science of mathematics any credence, that the odds of life arising from the primordial soup are about as close to zero as one could get. His assumptions were based on the premise that the entire globe was covered by this primordial soup. He is not a deist to my knowledge but is an empiricist. Any comments on this? Like I said, I am not professing to be either a creationist or an evolutionist. What I am trying to do is arrive at a logical conclusion using normally accepted scientific processes. Your help in interpreting Hoyle's assertions would be most appreciated. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 214 Wed Aug 30, 1989 ARNIEBELL at 18:18 PDT It would be interesting to see how he arrived at that figure. All too often, conclusions of that type are susceptible to compounding of error: one little miscalculation or bad assumption can snowball... ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 215 Thu Aug 31, 1989 DRMIKE at 06:52 EDT Fred Hoyle, however, is one of those scientists who is more "beloved" than "believed." He has followed some weird pathways in his day, and is not much in the mainstream. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 216 Thu Aug 31, 1989 R.LEE11 at 17:10 CDT Here is another question that I have always wondered about in evolution theory that I'd like to get some input on. If we assume that humans have evolved from lower life forms, and if we assume that humans are still evolving, what, then, are we evolving to? If we extrapolate evolution of the human species out to its farthest point in time it would appear that the ultimate goal of evolution is to develop a species that would be, what we now call, God. Is this a logical deduction? This goal would appear not unlike that which is suggested by the Hindu religion's notion of Karma/Nirvana, i.e., souls are suggested to be in continual progress toward the Godhead in each of an unknown number of incarnations until, hypothetically, the Godhead is reached. It seems to me, unless I'm confused, that there is a certain similarity in the two notions. Is this a logical comparison? Now, the confusing part to me is that Karma is to be worked out and, in turn, is accumulated in each incarnation. Karma is supposed to be the learning of various lessons which are necessary for advancement up the spiritual ladder toward eventual merger with the Godhead. In the evolution paradigm, the analogue would appear to be the continual evolution of species to exactly the same end. Is this right? Seemingly, we could combine the two by saying that evolution is karma on a species level rather than an individual level. Does this make sense? By juxtaposition we could say that each species has its lessons to learn during its period of existence. Logical? This would then suggest that "natural selection" operates on both a species and individual level; i.e., group and individual "karma." The corollary is that evolution is nothing more than metalevel natural selection. Does this make sense? Here comes the hard part for me to understand. If karma is worked out and accumulated in each incarnation it would appear that there is a steady state (+- = 0). While one existence may yield a net positive yet another may yield a net negative. The overall effect over many incarnations being no advancement toward the godhead. Is this an appropriate deduction? Now if we can equate evolution with karma as similar phenomenon then I am wondering wondering if evolution is a process which will reach its implied goal, i.e., at the logical extension, becoming God. It could be that evolution is the "wheel of karma" on the metalevel which implies the antithesis of the assumed goals of evolution. If this is so, it would seem that some other process is operative and/or some other theory is more elegant to account for phenomena as evolution theory may be too limiting. If evolution is the "wheel of karma" on the species level what, then, is the purpose of it? Seeming the goals of evolution are short- circuited by its very nature. It is a built-in limiter. Does this make sense? We could use current many-leveled global problems as an indication of the possibility of operation of a built-in limiter in evolution. Each age comes to a close just as every species eventually becomes extinct -- the wheel of karma goes round and round. If this makes sense so far, then it would appear that the goal of science would be to examine evolution to ascertain why there is a built-in limiter. Why is it that evolution seems to maintain finite limits -- in other words, how is it that Nirvana can be reached and evolution escape from the wheels of karma? Is this possible or is it an inherent part of the larger machine? The nature of karma suggests it is an integral part of the whole, i.e., evolution, by its very process, must constantly create and destroy species with no great probability that quantum leaps occur. Does this mean that evolution constrains evolution? I am confused. What do you think? If this is true then evolution self-destructs. If that is the case then it would appear that we are confined within system-specified limits. The rebellious part of me says that there must be some way that this endless wheel can be left behind. There must be some system which allows the freedom of a non-self-destructive/constraining process. Do you have any opinions as to whether a system like that could or does exist? Just stumbling around and trying to figure it out.... ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 217 Thu Aug 31, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 20:14 EDT I've been reading "Scientists Confront Creationism" edited by Laurie R. Godfrey. This is a compilation of fifteen essays by scientists from fields ranging from anthropology to astrophysics. The comment on the back cover by N. H. Horowitz, California Institute of Technology, says it all. "This book systematically takes up the major creationist arguments and pulverizes them one-by-one. Most of the chapters will be readily accessable to the layman, all of them are informative, and some are inspiring. It should be read by every parent, teacher, school-board member, and legislator who has any doubts about where the truth lies in this debate." While pulverizing their arguments, this book also shows how some leading creationists distort and misrepresent facts. I highly recommend that all interested parties read this book. Evolutionists will love it for the arsenal of information it provides, creationists should also read it to get an idea of the distortions being fed to them by their leaders. --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 218 Thu Aug 31, 1989 HJOHN [Harrison] at 21:41 EDT Mark: Please share some of those pulverizing arguments for us here. Thanks. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 219 Thu Aug 31, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:09 EDT HJOHN, I'd wind up typing in the entire book. Why don't you go to the library and get a copy? I'm a 'hunt and peck' typist and couldn't do justice to the book, and still have time left to go to work! Don't you think that you owe it to yourself to read the book? Don't you want to know if you are being lied to? Without typing in an entire chapter, I'll try to give an example. H. Morris (a big honcho in the creationist community) holds a Ph. D. in Hydaulics. He gives explanations for the fossil deposits based on the Flood that are falsifiable using his own field of hydraulics! In another chapter, Morris is quoted as saying that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true. In another chapter of the book you can find some biblical quotes that point to a geocentric view of the universe. It ain't so. I could go on and on, but I hate to type. Read the book and _THEN_ we can have a serious discussion. If you are serious in your beliefs then read the book to see far better arguments than you'll get here. I'm not about to type in the whole book, go through a bit of effort, think for yourself, don't let other people do your thinking for you. --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 220 Thu Aug 31, 1989 ARNIEBELL at 21:15 PDT R.LEE11, I understand most of what you were trying to say about the similarities between karma and evolution, but I got lost at the end when you suggested that evolution has a built-in limiter. Perhaps you could elaborate. Lower species do not always evolve into higher species. The great white shark, apparently, hasn't evolved at all for tens of thousands of years because there's been no need for it to do so: it is an optimized design for its particular niche of "marine predator". Similarly, I don't think it's necessarily a part of evolutionary theory that man evolves into God. Since you brought karma and reincarnation into this, we're going to be talking on a metaphysical level rather than on a hard-science level... Man, as a species, doesn't "evolve" into God because God is not confined in a human body: God is everywhere in creation and also beyond creation; it would be biologically impossible for man to evolve into God. Let's clarify some points concerning karma, reincarnation, and the nature of man--from a Hindu perspective, anyway. You and I are not human bodies; we are souls--children of God who only inhabit bodies temporarily. We change them regularly, in much the same way as we would put on a new suit of clothes. We are not bound by the laws of biological evolution, since we are not biological organisms. When we are reincarnated, we are placed in a specific body, in a specific family, nationality, and era which is most in accordance with our own past actions -- our karma. The system is generally meant to be educational, but it's strictly up to us whether we want to learn our lessons, or continue to suffer. Do you love to fight? You'll be reborn in an environment where you can do it. Do you hate "niggers"? Next life, you may be reborn as one, so you can understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of racial prejudice. Are you deeply in love with money? Then it is unlikely you will be reborn in a land of highly spiritual people. And so on. So, the evolutionary processes which operate on the biological organisms here on earth really have nothing to do with your "spiritual evolution". You create your own future through your own choices today. Choose wisely, and you may find yourself reborn in an advanced society. Choose the ways of violence, and you may find yourself reborn on another planet, in another type of body, where you and others like you will have the opportunity to hack each other to death with swords. If you want to get off the "endless wheel" of karma, you must develop a closer relationship with God. God has no karma, and when you realize your identity as a child of God, you will have no karma either. You do not have to "become" perfect, you have only to realize that God is already dwelling right inside your heart, waiting patiently for you to discover Him. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 221 Fri Sep 01, 1989 R.LEE11 at 19:49 CDT Arniebell, I'm glad that my parallel of evolution and karma made some sense. I thought they seemed to be very similar types of processes. You mentioned biological evolution and spiritual evolution. That was what I was thinking about when the great similarity of the two notions appeared to me. The only difference between the two that I could see what a matter of "what is evolving" rather than any difference in process. When I mentioned that biological evolution's goal for man appeared to be to become, what we now consider God, I was assuming that at some point in time it would behoove biological evolution to transcend biological limitations -- thus moving into, I guess, a spiritual environment. Now this is metaphysics, true, but it would appear to make some sense from a scientific extrapolation. I am confused though about why reincarnation would need occur and karma would be gained/lost if God is in all. If God is in all then are we not already God? And, if already God and God has no karma, what then is the purpose for reincarnation and moving closer to God? If a species were evolved to occupy the most favorable niche possible why then would that species seek to occupy less favorable niches? This is confusing to me. Does this make sense or am I missing something? Applying the metaphysical to evolution, it would appear that a species could, at best, maintain its present state or devolve to some evolutionary lower form of life. This was what I was thinking about with the notion that evolution has a "built-in limiter." It is the "wheel of karma" process applied to evolution -- a process-similar system. I'm examing things on a "systems" level (or at least trying to). Now if this is a logical way to go, and if the system supercedes the two paradigms, then I am really confused. Why would evolution limit itself on the top limit but allow variance below? If the purpose of biological evolution is not to eventually transcend biological limitations and become spirit I wonder what its purpose is? By corollary, if the purpose of reincarnation/karma is not to eventually transcend karma limitations, because only God can have no karma and we, by definition, must have it, I then wonder what its purpose is? Do these questions make any sense? I don't see any vehicle whereby either evolution or reincarnation can reach their apparent goals. What then is the meaning of both? Are they both an exercise in futility and without purpose? Why would purposeless activities be conducted in nature? Natural selection would seem to favor organization/order as most likely to survive. Purposeless activities would cease to exist. If biological and spiritual evolution are only processes and not goal-directed actions they don't seem to be adaptive processes and hence favor their extinction. If the notion of "top-limit barrier" is true (if the biological cannot become the spiritual and if the spiritual cannot become God) then both processes could be entropic. It comes back to the old rebel in my mind saying, "There's got to be some process through which the "built-in top limit" can be overcome. I must confess however that I am at a loss to explain what that process/activity could be. Does evolutionary biology/science suggest any theories/ corollaries which are more complete and/or elegant that might apply here? If the system's approach here in this meta-analysis is valid it then suggests that evolution theory is not yet complete/comprehensive. It is good to have some input on these ideas as they have been bouncing around my mind for a long time. Thanks. ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 222 Fri Sep 01, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 21:40 EDT HJOHN, I was in a rotten mood when I replied to your last message. Sorry about that. I'll be glad to post a few quotes from the book. (I still hate to type, though :-)) In his essay "Ghosts from the Nineteenth Century: Creationist Arguments for a Young Earth" Stephen G. Bush (Ph. D. in theoretical physics) refutes the theories of Thomas G Barnes who proposes that the decay of the earth's magnetic field is a good method of estimatind the age of the earth. He also demonstrates how these "scientists" distort facts. ----- 'Acording to Barnes, "In 1883 Sir Horace Lamb proved theoretically that the earth's magnetic field could be due to an origional event (creation) from which it has been decaying ever since" (1973, p. viii). This is not a correct discription of Lamb's 1883 paper, which dealt only with electric currents and did not mention geomagnetism at all; Barnes assumes that the same mathematical equations apply to magnetism.' ----- The next few pages offer a technical discussion of the earth's magnetic field, and would be too much to type in. One point worth mentioning is the following: ----- 'Barnes rejects the possibility that the earth's magnetic field has reversed itself...'. 'The most striking example of Barnes's use of obsolete evidence is his use in a 1981 paper (p. iv) of a long quotation from a 1962 book by J. A. Jacobs on difficulties with the reversal hypothesis. In a later edition of this book, Jacobs states that "the evidence seems compelling" that such reversals _have_ occured (1975, p. 140). Barnes, however, omits the date of the publication he quotes from, and completely ignores the fact that Jacobs changed his position in the 1975 edition.' ----- Speaking of geomagnetism: ----- '"Changes in cosmic radiation produced by reversal of the earth's magnetic field could change the uranium decay rate (see Morris 1974, p. 142)." No evidence is presented for this hypothesis, so it does not seem worthwile to refute it. However it should be noted that according to creationist Thomas Barnes's theory, which is one primarily relied upon to support their own ten- thousand-year time scale, there have not been any reversals of the earth's magnetic field' ----- To further illustrate the ignorance of these creationist 'authorities': ----- '"Experiments have shown that the decay rates of cesium 133 and iron 57 vary; hence there may be similar variation in other radioactive decay rates (see Slusher 1981 p. 22, 49)" There are no such experiments; both are stable isotopes, not subject to decay at all! This claim merely reveals Slusher's ignorance of neuclear physics.' ----- Back to Morris for a sec... ----- 'Morris tells his reader that radiogenic argon 40 is indistinguishable from argon 40 "formed by unknown processes in primeval timesand now dispersed arround the world" (1974 p. 148), so it is impossible to use potassium-argon ratios to detect true ages. But, in fact, the proportion of atmosphrric argon incorperated into the rock can be easily estimated by measuring the amount of argon 36 present and using the known isotopic composition of atmospheric argon to make this correction. Neither Morris nor Slusher even mentions this point, so we must assume that they are unfamiliar with one of the most elementary parts of the procedure they are criticizing' ----- A bit more of Morris. ----- "It is completely consistant with the philosophy of creationisn to reject the randomness of natural processes (Morris 1974, pp. 15, 16, 22, 33, 59). But neither Slusher nor Morris informs the reader that his critique of radioactive dating methods involves the rejection of two of the most spectacularly sucessful theories of modern physics--relativity and quantum mechanics. ... To attack the theory of radioactive decay by abandoning quantum mechanics seems almost suisidal; one can only suppose that the creationists know nothing about modern atomic physics (despite their "qualifications"), or they hope that no one notices the absurdity of their position.' ----- Please read the book, this took me almost two hours to type! (damaged tendon in my left arm (my arm squeaks! YIK!!)) --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 223 Fri Sep 01, 1989 H.GRIFFITH1 [Herm] at 22:30 EDT We appreciate the effort Mark. Also I can understand why you would be in such a "rotten" mood, look at what hope an evolutionist has for the future! You live an empty life and don't even realize it. Herm ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 224 Fri Sep 01, 1989 MPIASKIEWICZ [Mark P] at 23:46 EDT Herm, that was pretty nasty. I'm in a rotten mood because my arm has been in pain for a week now and using it to type hurts. Personally, I feel that God doesn't need lies to prove his existence, and creation scientists seem to feel that He needs their help. Don't you think God is clever enough to come up with something like evolution? Read the book I quoted. Read some other books on science. See how powerful God REALLY is. As I said before, I was an atheist before I devoloped an interest in science, now I'm not! Do you have such a meager opinion of God that an almost stone-age account of his will is sufficient to describe Him? Do you think that those people were advanced enough to understand Him? Do you feel that we are? Only by studying his creation (the Universe (and not the creationist definition of the term 'creation')) can we hope to see His purpose. Why do you think he provided the mechanism (evolution) that caused us to develope intelligence? Or don't you give Him the credit for that? --Mark ------------ Category 12, Topic 7 Message 225 Fri Sep 01, 1989 ARNIEBELL at 21:31 PDT R.LEE, I still don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that species seek to occupy less favorable niches, and that the best a species can hope for is to maintain its present state. Leave karma out of it for a moment; how about explaining this belief strictly from an evolutionary standpoint. I don't think it's logical to assume that biological evolution can transcend biological limitations. That would imply that a biological process can eventually produce a non-biological result--a soul, a spirit, or some sort of consciousness whose existence is not dependent on the existence of the biological organism which created it. Back to Hindu religious beliefs, the nature of God, and the purpose of reincarnation. God is in each one of us, but that does not make us God. We are a subset, if you will, of God's consciousness -- individualized expressions of a much greater Consciousness which exists both within and beyond creation. You are the wave, but God is the ocean. The ocean has become the wave, but the wave cannot claim to be the ocean. Since we are "made in the image of God", our true nature is the same as God's: ever-existing, ever-conscious, ever-new bliss. The problem is, we don't realize it! We think of ourselves as limited human beings, we act accordingly, and we get ourselves into all kinds of trouble because of it. Why don't we see who we really are? Because in order to have a creation at all, God had to prevent us from seeing through the game. Who could get interested in making a buck if we could actually see that the entire universe was only a dream in the consciousness of God? There could not be a world as we know it if everyone were omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient! So, God has put blinders on us so that we do not see through His game too easily. We start thinking that things like money are real, and that they are the most worthwhile things to pursue. We start believing that we are bodies, and we start to fear the death of the body. We perceive ourselves as separate from all our fellow souls, and we start to believe that we are better, more important than they are. All of these beliefs are untrue! But weird things start happening when people think and act as if they were true--just look at the world around you! But God has built in a safety net: when you believe in things which are not true, you suffer the consequences. It is our desires which force us to reincarnate. If you like it here, you get to come back. But, since we are, by nature, infinite consciousness, we can never be satisfied with the things of this world. But we sure keep on trying, don't we! Sooner or later, we grow tired of this world, since we find no lasting satisfaction in it. And this is often where people turn to religion, hoping to find more lasting happiness. Since God is the only Reality, God is the only one who can truly satisfy us. So, the soul's journey to perfection is not really a matter of self- improvement, but rather of rediscovering its own true nature. While you are dreaming, you can dream you are in prison or in great pain, and while you are dreaming, the suffering seems quite real! And then you wake up, and you realize you were never really hurt at all. This creation is God's hobby. Since God is not a static, but rather a dynamic being, God's creation is constantly changing as well. The mechanisms of biological evolution reflect this, and keep things from getting stale. So long as there is a creation, there will always be a need for lower life forms (in a biological sense), just as there will always be a need for trees and flowers. Can you imagine a "perfect" world with no animal life? From this perspective, there is no "end result" to biological evolution, in which everything eventually evolves biologically into the highest possible form of life. In God's great drama of creation, there must be bit players as well as stars. But your own spiritual evolution is under your own control. You can choose to play the game of this world, and you will obtain some pleasure in the short run, along with some suffering. Or, you can choose the path which will take you back to God, the only One who can banish all pain and suffering forever, and fill you with permanently satisfying Joy.