All BBS Posts are in the
Library
Topics: Differences between TVs and TS.
Why do we dress like it's Prom Night?
That does not mean going to the extreme. It does mean, that I am never without my makeup (although never over done). But I must say, I know many biological ladies who feel the same way. My best girl(since birth)friend, won't even go to the mailbox without lipstick and mascara on. I sometimes wonder if we only notice "the extreme" look and perhaps that is why you ask the question. Perhaps you have not noticed the ladies like myself who simply "blend in"... Just a thought...
Email: Kathee
The younger T*s amongst us have a great advantage over the likes of myself - society is more tolerant (there's still a long way to go though) and the information available and clubs where they can let their hair down have prolificated. I suspect that with this 'freedom' say fifteen years ago I would have released Fiona from the closet.
E-mail: Fiona Michelle
Straight, Gay, Bi-sexual are all labels that undermine one's ability to enjoy wearing clothes that, in this culture and time, are assigned to women- A pastime, hobby or lifestyle choice that most people here share.
If you like boys/men, good. If it validates you, here is a GOLD STAR. That goes for the girl/women contingent as well. And if you are a "well-adjusted bi" then that is great, too. What I'm trying to say is that you can try to put any label you want on anyone. Call me whatever you will, but your words don't define the true me.
If I am a transvestite and like women, and you are a TV that likes boys, what do these two things have in common? We are both transvestites, but different people. What is true for this CD is not necessarily true about all cross-dressers. We are a community that shares a common interest, not a common sexual preference.
It's just strange that a group of people who are essentially trying to demolish lables, perceptions and stereotypes in regard to gender (and themselves) would spend so much time desperately trying to construct,define and apply lables to others in this community regarding sexuality. I think this kind of devisive, dualist thinking should stop.
Aurora
My girlfriend and I were wondering about something that we've never had the guts to ask our transgendered pals: How come you gals always try to look like the "prom queen" or the "belle of the ball" or just some glammed out vegas queen that really has nothing to do with being a woman? We don't know whether to be insulted or what? Sometimes it seems as if it were just another case of men making the idea of "being a woman" something that was FAR different from what it REALLY is... Could you please think about your answer...this is something that has been bothering us and we really want to understand... Thanks so much.
Lisa & Laurel
Unfortunately, not all of us have a very clear picture of the daily femal= e routine and so end up only partially realizing the full female appearance/experience. I'm sure that's confusing for you, seeing us try = to emulate something that we don't fully understand ourselves.
I also think that we have fallen victim to the mass media vision of what = a woman should be. Perhaps we watch too much television, or read too many magazines, but I think that we are influenced (adversely?) by those mediu= ms that present women as always looking like the cover of Cosmo.
For many of us, the daily hassles of being a fashionable woman comes as a surprise. The makeup, the additional items of clothing, the extra time required to get dressed and that is just the (admittedly superficial) beginning. I know that the first time I wore high heels across a parking lot, I was amazed at the screams of protests from my feet.
I guess what I'm saying is: Please don't be insulted. In our desire to emulate the feminine mystique, we may occasionally run to the right or le ft of a true woman's self image; please be tolerant. We want to understand, we're trying to understand and we'll keep on trying (though perhaps with a slightly lower heel next time!) Linda
Some of us like to wear sexy clothes (what each person _perceives_ as sexy that is
Why do many of us take such pleasure at being accepted as women by other men? Why do many of us fantasize about sex with men while dressed? I, for example, cannot picture myself in bed with a man in my male persona, but can, and often do, as Rachael. Yet, I am happily married to a woman I love; even though she accepts my crossdressing, I would find it extremely difficult to discuss the homoerotic aspects of my psyche with her.
Four thousand years ago, a small, desert tribe made strict rules about what kind of sex was allowed by their god, Yaweh. The rules were designed to ensure survival of the band under extremely harsh conditions, and prohibited any sexual act that did not stand the chance of producing an offspring. Thus, they banned bestiality, masturbation and homosexuality. These rules were passed down to Christianity, and have ingrained in our Western culture a revulsion towards homosexuality.
As "heterosexual" crossdressers, we are victims of this cultural peculiarity as much as the most macho, redneck homophobe. Perhaps more so, because we constantly feel the need to reassure ourselves and our loved ones that we are not gay, not one of THOSE. The reason I can imagine myself having sex with a man as Rachael may be that, as Rachael, I am a woman. Thus, the act is not homosexual in my mind. Many of us never come to grips with our natures, harboring secret fears about our sexual orientation, and keeping deeply buried any hint of forbidden feelings. Great psychological harm can occur.
With our paranoid insistence upon our heterosexuality, we help perpetuate the homophobia that is still rampant in our society. While closed groups like Tri-ESS certainly have their place, the proliferation of open ones like ETVC and Rennaisance is a welcome development. They foster healthy attitudes, doing battle against ignorance and prejudice. I hope the time comes when we feel free to drop the automatic "heterosexual" prefix when we declare ourselves to be transvestites.
Rachael Robbins
Luther
(Ed. Note: Luther (Washington) has a personals ad where you can reply
privately or you can post publicly here. Usual rules.
Thank you for the very educational BBS posting I read today(7-21) answering Lisa and Laurel's question, which I believe was valid. Since we've been "hanging-out" with the T* community here in San Diego we have noticed the same cases that sparked Lisa's inquiry but never took offense to it. I appreciate the hard work our friends go through to look good. I've watched many times my wife do the same. Thank God I don't have to do it every day like her, but she's got it down to a science I think.
About the topic now: YES, as I said before, under the right circumstances I believe we are all at least Bi-sexual. I have crushes on a few of my TV friends because they are so pretty and if I were single I would be dating them in a heart beat. One has told me she wishes I were.
I'm not gay. Men don't appeal to me. But I don't see my friends AS men. They don't look, act or sound like men. And as for sex, well, just watch a porno video.
Hiya!
There are a couple of issues raised by in your questions that I will try to answer as best I can, but I'd also like your permission to pose this question (shortened up) as part of our topic of the week for TG Forum's BBS...(cut for privacy reasons)
On Sun, 16 Jul 1995 Laurel & Lisa wrote:
> Hi! My girlfriend and I were wondering about something that we've never had > the guts to ask our transgendered pals: How come you gals always try to look > like the "prom queen" or the "belle of the ball" or just some glammed out > vegas queen that really has nothing to do with being a woman? We don't know > whether to be insulted or what?
Don't be insulted.
First, I'd ask who it is you are friendly with. If they are, as I suspect, transgender people who only dress occasionally, the answer is fairly simple:
If you aren't living a female life a lot of the time, when you DO get a chance to go out it is a VERY, VERY special event. Special events call for special clothes, no? Some people definitely do go overboard, but I really think it is mostly because they go out so rarely this is a big deal: it kind of IS a prom night.
Also, where are you and your friends going? If they're dressing to the nines to go the mall...well, let's just say I know some professional shrinks they may need to talk to!
But what is interesting is that when people get the chance to express themselves as much as they want they most definitely begin dressing and acting like real women.
Let me put it more personally. I go out a lot during the day to shop or just so see friends. I wear what you probably would wear: casual clothes, little or no make-up, etc. I want to "pass", not be noticed as odd, and I want to be comfortable too. Every transgender person I know who goes out a lot, especially in the day, wants to pass. BTW, read the article we have here now (link in Whats New) about Going Out.
Yes, in my photos here I am in my "prom" clothes (made me smile to read that), but those are show-off pix. I sure don't dress like that to go to 7-11!
And take a look at a lot of the other pictures of people here, many of them look like well-dressed, but not flamboyant, women.
There is a small exception to this: gay drag queens. I know a lot of these folks too and they dress almost exclusively in glamorous type outfits. They also almost NEVER go out dressed in the day. Their thing is very theatrical. I'm not an expert in the DQ mindset, but they are a lot of fun.
Which brings me to another point: some transgender people have no choice but to glam it up.
That sounds stupid, but hear me out.
A big person, with a very masculine face, maybe a five o'clock shadow too, is going to need lots of makeup to look anything like a woman. When you start using a trowel for your foundation, well then everything starts getting exaggerated just so that it kind of works...Try it sometime. Put a lot of foundation on, as if you needed it to hide as much as possible. You'll find that you use more of EVERYTHING.
Same with accessories. People with big hands and heads use big clunky jewelry to make those features look smaller. But it also makes them look flamboyant. But some just don't have any taste...read on.
> Sometimes it seems as if it were just > another case of men making the idea of "being a woman" something that was > FAR different from what it REALLY is... Could you please think about your > answer...this is something that has been bothering us and we really want to > understand... Thanks so much.
This is a complicated question. I think most of us truly honor women, the very last thing any of us would want to do is to insult or otherwise degrade women.
But, some people have no taste or they're plain stupid. I think some people who wear minis up to here don't understand how stupid they look or the message they convey...until they go outside of "safe" venues and into a place where men are.
They learn really fast that if you dress like a hooker, men assume you are looking for something. Doesn't take long for the person to realize that maybe it isn't such a good idea to dress like that!
My advice to you is if you have friends who you feel are overdressed or far too flamboyant, tell them!! My wife sure told me, and it improved my image immensely. Her attitude was if you are going to do this and want to be seen with me then don't look like a clown or a slut.
Believe me, the fact that you care enough to give them good advice will be appreciated. After all, how do girls learn what looks good and what doesn't? From their peers, right? When you were growing up didn't your friends let you know, indirectly or directly, if you looked bad or good??? People are not born with fashion sense or good taste...it's doubly hard when you only get to try your look out a few times a month.
Hope this helps. Let me know what you think.
Cindy Martin
Publisher
Transgender Forum
No, I'm more like an organdy petticoat-try to stuff me in a box and my skirt will pop out somewhere!
I am a lot of things and a little of others--I like my friends like that too.
Lauren
Not meaning to IFGE-bash, but the first issue of Tapestry I read had one article that defined things for newbies .. including essentially defining transvestites the way the above question asked .. I formed my own opinion of IFGE on the spot when I read that.
-Kara
I apologize for not having read all the posted bulletins on the internet. In brief however I just thought a few comments from my positon as a post-op might apply to some of my new sisters out there in cyber-space.
Personally I feel this whole phenomena does not just involve dressing up in a prom dress to "feel pretty" for the day or and evening out. Speaking for myself it has been a MIND SET that I have had for a very, very long time since I was young. I remember hearing about Renee Richards years ago, then thinking that this was the type of person I wanted to be. (Be careful for what you wish for, it could come true !).
Now only recently being in my late 30's have I had the courage and fiances to face the world and become the person whom I always wanted to be. I am now a woman legally, physically and mentally. In so doing I have all but faded away from the gender scene and support groups, except for an occasional visit online with my computer to see what others are up to. I believe when you finally complete your transition you too will also want to fade away from the weekly meetings of the gender centers and gay bars. Lets face it, does your mother or sister have to go to gender meetings ?
Then why should you ? If you want to be a sucess as a woman then you need to be in the real world with other women. Since the good Lord has given me a second chance at the life I have always wanted, I have become involved in my local church.
It gives me a great feeling of success to be welcomed into the circles with the other women there. I am not saying Church is the answer to anything but it has been a big help for me. As many of you know, you must be prepared to give up everyting.
Yes "everything" to do this (ie: family, friends & more). So my new friends at church have become an important part of my life because they have no idea of my past life, and if they suspect something. They do not know for sure, so I don't volunteer the information.
In summary, you can become anything you want to be in this life if you try hard enough and work towards that goal. If you are inclinded to follow my path in life, then stride to transition with grace, not disgrace.
Warmest Regards to all.
Carol Louise Carolk38@AOL.com
I have the greatest respect for TGs and will support to the end their rights to live and be whoever they want to be; but I'm not one myself.
Ann
Linda
Email:lindacd9@aol.com
Ava K
Lots of whispers and finger pointing and the like. My friend pretends to be obliviou to it all but I know she is all too aware.
My main problem is that I tend to get very angry at the people making these comments and I often feel like telling them to f*** off but I don't want to cause a scene for her sake. Basically I would like some coping skills/suggestion from you or any one else that can help.
Please e-mail me at this address
But many transsexuals are also transvestites who think that the nature of of what/who they are would be helped by becoming extremely advanced... having the surgery to match the mindset that they have while dressed. The only thing the surgery will do in that case is become the catalyst for a great deal of regret on the part of the person in question... and it is not easily reversible....
While we revel in labels [don't know why myself] the sad fact is that these labels only serve the ends of those who want to seperate and destroy the'community' [such as it is].
Randi L.A. Dennis
Thank you
Robbie
I believe the cause lies with the fact that numerous terms are so poorly understood by so many people. Among these terms are: sex/gender/orientation. There are also many bases/causes/motivations for TG. There are social, psychological, emotional, physical, spiritual elements that all contribute to a massive 'soupiness' about transgenderism. Few who are TG knew they were TG from early childhood.
It's only later in life that most of us come out of denial and accept that we have true conflicts within ourselves--that it won't just go away or resolve itself by trying to forget about it. With all the guilt, social stigma, and personal agony that we go through, with all the battles we fight within ourselves, with the difficulty explaining to ourselves--let alone others who share no common experience-- 'how' or 'why' we are 'what' we are (after we've finally resolved 'what' we are--or think we have), with all the various manifestations of 'trans____' (TV/TG/TS/T?) it's no wonder to me that others who are entirely content with their genetic sex, assigned gender role, and socially-accepted orientation would have trouble understanding what a transgendered person is.
(another comment about "prom" night--getting all dolled up gets us mentally as far away from being male as possible. If I could look as feminine completely nude, I might die of contentment)
About an old topic: TG & heterosexualism.
I don't think there will ever be an accepted majority opinion on exactly what would make a heterosexual TG. I personally am most attracted to M/F sexual activity, though I also find interest in F/F activity. However, I'm personally repulsed by the thought of M/M sexual contact. I've fantasized considerably about sex with a woman--a fair number of times with me participating as a genetic woman. Here's the catch: these last years, I grown into fantasizing most of the time as a genetic woman having sex with a basically nameless/faceless man. I yearn to participate completely as a woman. However, if the image enters my mind of my male body (something of an 'ick') in sexual contact with another male body (really icky), the allure disappears. With a male image, I lose interest in men. If I had a female body, I would be attracted to heterosexual activity (and admittedly, some lesbian activity as well).
I figure I'm heterosexual in my psyche, but perhaps others would disagree. I've considered, but honestly don't believe that
Crystal
Part of my explanation is that I believe this is more of a perception than it is full fact. When most people actually "see" TGs dressed, they see us dressed to the nines (I suppose I should know precisely what that expression means, but forgive me, I don't). I believe it's easier to see some of the less noticeable incongruities in a revealing prom dress, than in well-chosen casual or business wear. I believe I pass pretty well and don't get noticed when I'm just 'Jane Doe' in the public eye. But when I call attention to myself in an attention-grabbing formal, close scrutiny reveals that I'm not what I want to be. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just SEEMS like so many TGs dress like it's ALWAYS prom night.
Another part of my explanation is this: Many TGs are seen only at special occasions, when then have been given special 'license' (by themselves, or by someone else) to be dressed in public. Therefore, the occasion becomes a gala event. Much anticipation and energy is put into being as pretty as possible, with the realization that the event will not last all day, so practicality is not so much an issue--rather, we do what the movie starlets do, and dress in a manner that would not be considered casual or business wear. Why do the movie stars get all dressed up for awards ceremonies? It's a time for one to attempt to feel as beautiful as possible. You may be seing alot of emotional salve applied when a TG is having a night out on the town. Costumes of one form or another have often been used to celebrate a special evening.
Unfortunately, this naturally promotes a sense of "can we do a reality check here?" from those who dress however they want (or need to) dress, day-in and day-out. If you spent every minute of the day with me, you would find that while I have numerous formals, I spend the least amount of my time in them--they're just not practical for every-day wear.
-Crystal
Elizabeth
As any honest TV that looks at herself in the mirror can attest, it is the narcissistic beauty that gets us all excited. The idea that one can take the luxury to prepare for something as frivolous as the Prom and then admire the handywork. It is the ultimate in "girlishness" to fuss over these things in our minds. It's just plain sexy. Besides, what girl didn't want to lose it on Prom night?
Email: Aurora
Linda
Very rarely a nurse asks about it, cannot understand it, but wanted to know why i did transform, what mede me do it ect. ones a lesbian nurse who had a relative transformed from femele to male, asked me about it. she knew that I was living with another woman, so a lesbian relationship as well, wich interested her. but even then Cindy, I am not capeble to make people feel what it is to be a woman who had lived in the wrong body for so long (35 years) even if they are a woman therself, and what more they are nurse, wich means they should know what can happen with people.
Men are even worse, they have so many problems with there identity, its hardly to imagine. In the army they are don't talk about it unless you are part of the unit. altough I have had a great support from my collegs, male and female. everything worked out perfect. sometimes when you are long enough working with them they start questioning, I always tell them everyting, trying to be compleet opnen to them, that realy works you know.
Well i.v excuused me for me bad english ( me dutch is'nt much better...) love from Els (is short for Elisabeth)
Steve
Email:
harrissg@sluava.slu.edu
I know we all go through this cycle, and how should we expect others - men or women - to understand? This medium is brilliant for chatting to others and finding out that, at worst, we all have the same problems. Maybe when we know what the reasons are, we can tell others who want to know.
Thereís also the view that weíre pretty lucky to have something which can make us happy, every time, no fail.
Elizabeth, Surrey, England
Email to:
100344.2204@compuserve.com
A woman who is just OK when seen in everyday clothes can be transformed into a thing of incredible beauty with the right formal of after-six dress. I think the CD experience is much the same. I don't want to be a woman full time, I just want to experience the feelings of elegance and beauty. There is no equal in the natural realm of men's clothing to describe the feel of an expensive after-six dress. The colors, the fabrics and the accesories make the experience. So, why do we dress in such a dressy manner ? - it's fun.
----J. Avalos ---
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds." -Bob Marley
Renee, from St. Louis
That does not mean going to the extreme. It does mean, that I am never without my makeup (although never over done). But I must say, I know many biological ladies who feel the same way. My best girl(since birth)friend, won't even go to the mailbox without lipstick and mascara on. I sometimes wonder if we only notice "the extreme" look and perhaps that is why you ask the question. Perhaps you have not noticed the ladies like myself who simply "blend in"... Just a thought...
Email: Kathee
Back to our home page