CyberGraphX V3 and CyberVision64/3D FAQ
If you have a question for the FAQ let me know at: vgr@best.com
Q: Why is the CV64 bus faster then the CV3D
A: The amiga has only a Zorro3 bus..if you wanna fit PCI chips on it
(all current gfxchips) you have to make your own bridge... and as
Zorro3 has the limit of about 16MB for normal things.. you limited
by 16MB too for your PCI bridge...but now the different clocks
comes into the play. PCI has a synchron 33Mhz clock...Zorro3 is
theoretically asynchron but runs at 25mhz at the moment...
so you have to sync both sides which will mean a speed loss
therefore the CV3d has a slower mem interface than the CV64
(50Mhz local bus Trio) the 3d is lowcost..and was meant to sell
cards to people which haven`t bought one yet...including Z2 users.
Q: I run PatchControl and MCP (and other hacks/patches) in my startup-sequence
and CGX V3 seems to crash now.. can I fix this? (Or any other hack/patch)
A: You might try to move the hacks/patches (PatchControl, MCP, ect..) to
be run _after_ IPrefs in your startup-sequence and see how it works.
Q: CGX V3 seems to be crashing alot with my 060/PPC card.
A: See Q&A above. If that does not help you might try to use:
setpatch 40.16 (02/14/94). With later setpatches it's not sure what
has really been done and many have reported some kind of problem or another.
Q: When my Amiga boots up I only see the CGX bootlogo for a fraction of
a second. Is there any way I can leave it up longer?
A: You can make the boologo stay on the screen longer by setting the ToolType
BOOTLOGO=1 and set the tooltype PASSTROUGH=YES in your monitor file.
Then set the ENV VAR NOPASSTHROUGH to 1. If you wish to use NTSC or other
non-cgx screen modes you can set the ENV VAR NOPASSTHROUGH back to 0 at the end
of the 's:user-startup' with the line 'setenv CyberGraphX/NOPASSTHROUGH 0'.
A: #2 The bootlogo is only displayed for the time between monitor startup and
WB screen open. If you only see the bootlogo for a short time then you
just need to delay the opening of the WB screen. As soon as there is
con output at boot time it is opened. You could add the WAIT command
to your startup-sequence before the 'loadwb' line... ie 'WAIT 2' will
wait 2 seconds. (This will only work with CGX V3, it will not work with V2)
Q: I installed the CV3D software but the card still does not work.
A: Make sure you have a CyberVision64/3D in the Amiga, not a CyberVision64.
Thanks to the guys at Nova Design for this one :)
Q: On the CV64 if CPUP2C is set to 0 will the Roxxler be used?
A: On hardware accelerated planar2chunky converversion it will.
On all cards having CPUP2C=0 will give faster results. The trade off
is that on slower cards like PicassoII you will see some flicker.
You can see this on something like FinalWriter«.
Q: I run a 1280x1024 screen and there is a "line on the right side of the
screen". How can I fix this?
A: You should try to lower the Pixclock to 100mhz or lower. Also anything
beyond 100MHz Pixclock will make the pointer flicker because it uses
a software crsr.
Q: Why does the CV64 use 64MB of autoconfig space?
A: It reduces on board logic such as it needs less logic to decode
certain addresses, there is enough config space.
Q: Why does the CV3D use 256MB of autoconfig space in Z3 machines?
A: Because of the PCI address mapping. The next smaller size is 32mb
and that is not enough for CV3D. The PCI config setup requires over
32MB to get access to all registers without additional mapping hardware.
All registers can be accessed within a 256mb space.
Q: How can CyberGraphX V3 run older CGX V2 software with the library names being
different?
A: When CGX V3 is run correctly it will create a resident library called
cybergraphics.library The current version is 41.2. AGAIN this is a resident
library. In RAM.
Q: I've put a CV64/3D in an Amiga with a 68040, I noticed that my HD is waiting about
5 sec without doing nothing. IT seems to be SetPatch that is doing the pausing.
A: The 68040 needs to build the mmu table and Zorro3 board address spaces
are quite huge->more entries in the table->takes longer to create.
Q: Is there a way under CGX to see how much memory is free on the CGX card?
A: CGX does not have the functions to check this currently, this is in the
works.
Q: Why does MPEGA not play a .mp3 with cybergfx with just the -p option?
A: Just use -p and -d 2 because it can't play 44100hz on a cgx screen.
It needs a productivity ecs/aga mode in the background but obviously
there is none ... sound dma is heavily dependant on display dma.
Q: I just installed CyberGraphX and I am having alot of problems.
A: First thing to do is REMOVE ALL HACKS from your startup-sequence
and User-Statup and WBStartup. Then go from there.
Q: Do Winners use SmartRefresh? Should I use SmartRefresh or SimpleRefresh?
A: SHORT ANSWER
NO! Remember to turn on SimpleRefresh in all applications where available.
With MUI, simply set the refresh with the Windows->Refresh gadget. The
reason why you should avoid smartrefresh is that it uses a lot of RAM,
and is also slow due to a lot of allocating/copying of gfx data. While
smartrefresh was meaningful with slow CPU's and small amount of gfx data
(low color ECS/AGA resolutions), it makes no sense with high color and big
resolutions. In addition, the cliprect defined by old layers is so stupid,
superlayers was unable to lessen the amount of gfx-data transfere
happening.
A: LONG ANSWER - by the Superlayers author
With smartrefresh, the machine doesn't have to "think" very much, it
simply copies a lot of gfx data, because the system automaticly saves and
restores window contents. This copying from gfxcard<->fast ram is
pretty slow, even with zorro III. Reading from gfxcard ram is worst, it's
dead slow. With smartrefresh this happens all the time.
..
With simple refresh, there's more "thinking" involved, because the system
doesn't save and restore window contents. Instead it orders the
application to redraw itself in the damaged portions of the window.
..
Now, this is what happens in a typical "window-arrangement" situation (simplified):
With "buffers" i mean offscreen bitmaps in fastram.
..
Smartrefresh:
- Allocation of buffers
- Copying some stuff from old buffers to new buffers (fastram->fastram)
- Copying some stuff from screen to new buffers (gfxram->fastram) VERY SLOW!
- Moving on-screen gfx using blitter (VERY FAST)
- Copying some stuff from old buffers to screen (fastram->gfxram)
- Free old buffers
Simplerefresh:
- Moving on-screen gfx using blitter (VERY FAST)
- Repair damaged regions in the window, which usually means:
- Text rendering
- Linedrawing/Rectangle filling (blitter)
- Image rendering, in other words copying from fastram->gfx ram
Important:
The amount of gfx needed to be renderd in the repair part is in most cases
much smaller than the buffers dealed with when using smartrefresh.
..
As you can see, simplerefresh involves much less data-moving, and is
therefore generally the preferred method, but as you've experienced
yourself, it's not always the case. Why? Because the repair part of the
simplerefresh operations involves much more "thinking" than simply
figureing out what to copy, like in a smartrefresh case.
..
So it all comes down to a balance between the ability to move gfxdata,
the amount of gfxdata (depth, resolution), and the raw cpu power.
..
A very typical resolution, 1024*768*16, involves a lot of gfx data, and
therefor simplerefresh is the superior choice, unless your cpu is so slow
it is better off copying data. (a little more technical: when copying the
cpu only does a small loop to copy memory, while with repair the cpu needs
to execute a lot of code).
..
I could do a lot more explaining, but I guess this is enough.. just a
note: I could have speeded up smartrefresh operations A LOT with
superlayers, but it is impossible because of how the old CBM guys defined
the cliprect used by gfx.library. It's a shame really..
..
Last note: if you have a lot of windows open and/or uses OpaqueMove/Size,
then the smartrefresh becomes even slower compared to simple.
Q: Does the ScanDoubler Module for the CV3D, for the A4000, also
Work in A3000 & A2000?
A: No. The video slot in the A3000/A2000 is different enough that a
new Modlule will be made. The A2000/A3000 will just have a passthrough,
there will be a special version of the 'sd' without a video slot interface.
Q: Why doesn't work Scala with CyberGraphX anymore ?
A: Make sure, you have the PLANES2FAST option disabled. While this works fine
for most system use, programs like Scala get into trouble because they are
not aware of graphics cards installed in the system.
Q: I can't get CyberGraphX to work with my new Apollo 4060 accelerator. Why ?
A: The software setup of the 68060 on the Apollo card is not correct. Please
contact the manufacturer of this card to fix this problems.
Q: Does the CV3D have a jummper for setting the card in Z2 mode when it is
Installed in a Z3 machine?
A: No.
Q: Why does the the Emplant driver seem not work with CGX V3?
A: When Asked on comp.sys.amiga.emulations: Why does the Emplant not work with
the CV3D the following was given:
From: Jim Drew
Reply-To: Jim Drew
Subject: Re: CV/643D and Emplant Problem
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:25:51 +0000
No driver will solve this problem. The CV643D was released after
Utilities Unlimited went out of business, so there was no driver written
for it.
A: The emplant drivers 'peeks' inside the cgxbase library pointer.
An simple update to the Emplant driver should make it work.
A: David Gorton - dgorton@dreamscape.com sent me this:
"I have talked with Jim Drew about his CGXdrivers for Emplant MacPro. I realize
that they do not work with V3 and CV64/3D does not support V2. Jim said he
might never get to a patch or new driver for that product. Since his driver
peeks inside the Cgxbase.library could this library be patched to allow that
driver to work with V3? Or is there someone who might be able to fix them
drivers. Jim would probably give up the sourse code, if asked!"
Q: What is the maximum pixel clock for the CV64/3D?
A: The Offical ViRGE manual gives the following numbers: 8bit@135mhz,
15/16bit@80mhz and 24bit@50mhz. With CGXMode you can set this higher,
but higher rates not supported officially. The limitation is in CGXMmode
not the drivers. If the ADVANCED tooltype in CGXMode is not set,
max is like in the manual. If ADVANCED is set, max is limited to 135 mhz
in all modes. Some have reported that you can run at 100mhz in 16bit
without problems. If you set this to high you will see some visible
display flickering, when moving windows.. etc, no real problems though.
Q: Does the CVision3D have a jumper for older rev9 busters like the CV64?
A: CV3D manual says: "We recommend installing a Buster revision 11
for error free functioning of CYBERVISION64/3D". There have been
a number of people that have reported that the CV3D works just fine
with older busters (rev9). Pascal Eeftinck {arcade@xs4all.nl} has
reported that his 3000UX with a rev6 buster works fine with his CV3D.
Others have said that older Revs are flakey and when upgraded
to rev11 works fine.
Q: Does the scandoubler/switcher module from phase 5 require the CVision3D
driver to be loaded, or is it a pure hardware solution that will work
on the early startup screen, which is presented before ANY
software has been loaded?
A: It does not need the driver ... its default standard is
passthrough mode with scandoubling.
Q: Does the scandoubler/switcher module from phase 5 work in a A2000 ?
Can I use any other Flicker Fixer with CV64/3D
A: No the scandoubler/switcher module does not work in the 2000.
Not possible .. the logic is on the scandoubler..
Q: I run CyberGraphV V2 with an older non-3D graphics card.
What will CyberGraphX V3 get me?
A: You will be able to run CyberGL (in 15/16/24 modes) and use the new
features like: improved CGX screen/view handling , horizontal dragging,
improved cgxmode, Multiple views , Multi monitor system support,
Works completely without chip ram, Real memory management,
Support for multiple boards of the same kind, ect.....
There will be no real speed improvement, actually V2 is quite
fast already for most things.
Q: Why is V3 current slower then V2 on my CV64.
A: The current v3 versions are still beta. This is why certain things
are still slower than with v2. If you don't feel comfortable
with that stay with v2. The new v3 stuff is partly written in C,
most of the rendering functions are still in 100% assembler.
Q: Why does the CV64/3D not have a roxxler chip like the CV64, does the
ViRGE do some of "its" work and is the CV64 faster at p2c?
A: Cost reduction .. if you compare a cv64 to a cv64/3d much less circuit
logic is needed. Yes the ViRGE can do planar 2 chunky conversion too.
The roxxler can do p2c slightly faster.
Q: Does the scan doubler/switcher module have a video in plug on the
backplate, or does it go in the Amiga video slot?
A: It goes directly in the video slot.
Q: I went to the S3 spec page, and noticed the Virge chip mentioned a video
digitizer expansion module for the Scenic Highway bus, "Philips
SAA7110/SAA7111 video digitizers". Does this imply such a module might be
sold (or is that up to Phase5?)
A: The CV64/3D has the standard local peripheral bus for scenic mx highway
so its not really a hardware problem. There are many add-on modules
that would work with the CV64/3D. The big problem is getting
drivers/software to fully support the modules. Nothing has been planned
so far, things are pretty open still.
Q: Why is PutPixels slower under V3 than V2?
A: Writepixel is not optimized for speed. Writepixel is actually not a
speed indicator for a gfx emulation. Example: "If you drink beer
you dont go to the market for every bottle... That would be silly...
You would get a hold of a larger amount of bottles obviously...."
No higher level functions like line drawing or filling rectangles or
moving areas call writepixel to putpixels. This would be to slow
by far. All those PutPixels tests are not really speed indicators
for gfx cards.
Q: Why can't I open a 1024x768x24bit screen in V3?
A: Currently the CV64/3D driver uses 1mb of memory for video/3d textures,
leaving 3mb for display memory. This will become an option and will be
dynamic in the future.
Q: What is an example in the real world that uses PutPixel?
A: The mui buttons in the mui window title bar are drawn with a few WritePixels,
actually some could do a special patch with does not allow writepixel at all ..
you wont really notice the difference when working with the os.
Q: Can you have both the MPEG and Monitor switcher boards installed at the same
time on the CyberVision64/3D?
A: Sure, there are seperate connectors for both cards(modules)
Q: Would it take 2 or 1 slots?
A: It take 1 slot if it is in the lowest slot if there is a free video slot.
This is why the card has such a strange shape, to allow this.
Q: Does the CV64/3D also have hardware ARGB <-> RGBA 24bit data ordering
conversion, so programs like ShapeShifter in 24bit a modes
will be as fast as the CV64?
A: Yes CV64/3D has hardware ARGB <-> RGBA 24bit data ordering conversion
like CV64 has
Q: Does the MPEG module have composite video out (eg NTSC/PAL) & is
the audio out mono or stereo?
A: Its audio out is stereo, no composite video out though...
that requires an extra module not even planned yet, but there are
external vga -> composite video out converters available on the market.
Q: Why when you use a 24bit Workbench, and you use the menu option
Window->View By->Name the file names or other parts of the text don't show up?
A: Workbench uses certain operations and calls to draw the text which are
not possible on a hi & true color (15/16/24bit) screen. This is not a bug with cgx.
Q: Will there be a video module to get CyberVision64/3D modes to video tape?
A: No module is planed to get video out for the CV64/3D.
Again, there are external vga -> composite video out
converters available on the market.
Q: Flickering pointer? I run a 1152x900 screen and them mouse pointer seems
to flicker alot.
A: Flickering pointers have nothing to do with the resolution but the
pixelclock they selected in CGXMode ... Anything beyond 100MHz Pixclock
uses a software crsr.
Q: Does the CV64/3D offer higher res graphics modes than the CV64 with same memory?
A: No, it is quite the same display engine. CV64/3D does allow a faster
memory clock which improves performance in some cases though
CyberVision64/3D Modes:
1024x768x24bit Interlace 800x600x24bit Non-Interlace
1280x1024x16bit Interlace 1280x1024x16bit Non-Interlace
1600x1200x8bit Interlace 1280x1024x8bit Non-Interlace
This are only examples though, in certain cases more is possible.