| From: | Xavier Messersmith |
| Date: | 12 Jan 2000 at 12:01:22 |
| Subject: | Re: MUI, having nothing to do with OS3.5 |
From: Xavier Messersmith <xcaliber@xav.to>
On 12-Jan-00, Uffe Holst wrote:
> I will keep this short, because currently our discussion is not really
> leading anywhere.
I dunno, the scatter-shot method has its merits...
> Have you ever tried making a GUI. Simple Intuition/GadTools GUI's are
> certainly not easy to use, and the result is a dull static GUI. Of course
> it serves its purpose, but it looks exactly the way the programmer has
> made it and not how you want to make it.
My answer would be to learn programming and make it yourself if you're capable
in the mental capacity/schedule departments. Then again I still have alot to
learn about reality. :-)
> just to make a font-sensitive GUI requires so much more than
> the simple non-sensitive GUI.
This is assumed. Though I expect adding up pixel widths in a row formatted GUI
and spacing accordingly isn't amazingly more involved. It just involves a less
static approach.
> As I said above it requires a lot more work. This naturally also lead to
> a lot more code to be checked for bugs.
The simple math I envision shouldn't be too troublesome.
> Just take a look at an application like YAM - it is really a quite simple
> application - retrieve message, parse message, store message correctly,
> show message.
Oh, but it has a quite involved GUI. Thats one case where I could let the
programmer go for a while (just long enough to build a better one mind you
;-).
> I am not an experienced programmer, but I am still sure that
> I would be able to make a mail reader with the same functionality as YAM
> given the necessary time to do so.
I'm curious about where that email library they were talking about is. It
wasn't installed with the rest of the OS3.5, and there don't seem to be any
autodocs on it or anything.
Kinda frusterating...
> But I am not able to make my own
> font-sensitive configurable GUI for it, because this is very difficult.
I'm sure you could hack your way through and smooth it out on the rebound. If
you can manage email filters you could probably do this...
> I have never used MUI myself. When I had the time available to do
> programming I was using a 030 and since MUI isn't suited for such a
> processor I naturally didn't use it. But I have used Triton and it is
> really remarkable how easy it suddenly becomes even for novice programmers
> to add a nice configurable GUI to their applications - because and expert
> programmer has done all the hard work.
Thats the scary part though. Usually when a newbie coder starts writing, his
coding style and such become apparent in the GUI and you can tell wether or
not the program will be complete poop or utterly amazing just by giving it a
look and clicking one or two things.
With things like MUI, all the poop gets a facelift, and you can't tell until
it blows up in front of you. I hate that...
>> For most applications an '030 at 25 MHz should suffice.
>
> This is actually the main problem in our discussion that you have that
> attitude. More processor power gives you a much more free environment
> to run your applications under opening up for possibilities not available
> on slower processors.
I agree that faster processors open up new opportunities. But I don't think it
should all be blown towards managing a mediocre interface for a shoddily built
program.
> As you perhaps have heard, Steve Koren decided to stop developing NewsRog
> due to several reason a week or so ago - main reason being that it is
> being pirated and nobody is really registering it any more.
Indeed, and as one of the registered I'm kinda ticked since there are still
outstanding bugs. (mainly in the MUI handling)
> Amiga users demand that things run on a 68020 with 4 Mb of memory and AGA
> graphics."
I hate AGA dependancy, but I do think that NewsRog should swap out the data in
newsgroups that aren't being looked at. Common sense here. (I'd hope)
>> Note that I get alot more problems out of MUI apps than I do ClassAct (or is
>> that Reactor nowadays?).
>
> The only ClassAct application I am using now and then is AWeb, and it
> crashes happily.
Theres the problem, I never touch AWeb. Its a sickly little web browser...
>>> No, I am certainly not saying that. I am more likely saying that MUI is a
>>> great effort to make the Amiga the leading platform.
>>
>> Through brute force tactics. Something that the Amiga typically doesn't handle
>> very well.
>
> It would handle it quite well if the users upgraded their old equipment.
I think if there are easy optimimizations that drasticly improve performance
then they should be done. No point in a program that drools on itsself. If I
wanted something big and stupid, I'd do it myself in ARexx.
Users don't buy more memory and faster processors to make programmers happy
while they do the same thing slower and slower, they do it to allow the system
to achieve more.
> Personally I think it is a bit sad that we are stuck with all that old
> crap, because it puts so many restraints on the programmers. The user
> base is so little and if they programmers want to earn a little they
> have to support a processor that goes more than a decade back.
Its a great way to learn programming though. You can feel the program
executing. My line is that if you want to learn or do something important in
programming then you should develop it on a computer slightly slower than
you'd optimally want to run it on.
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